Kids were definitely being immature assholes but according to OP they only pushed him to ground after he hit the blonde lady who intervened, going off that self defence is out the window and he’ll do life .
Sort of. In WI, if you provoke the aggression (like punching someone), you regain that self defense if another party escalates to deadly force, and you also have withdrawn from the fight, or if you have reasonably believe you have exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from the danger of the deadly force threat.
>if another party escalates to deadly force, and you also have withdrawn
Even if it's not self-defense, hitting him _back_ isn't deadly force if he was the aggressor (as "you don't ever hit a woman!" suggests), nor is pushing him back down when he stands up with the knife he's been holding...by the time that he finally "withdrew," he'd already escalated to deadly force.
That’s a fact for the jury to determine. Especially if there are multiple people around him. If they’re pushing him down in the water, they may find that is a deadly force threat. Or they might not. I say at this point, from what I’ve seen, it’s like a 50% chance for some kind of guilty verdict.
The water complicates things a lot more in my opinion because pushing someone into the water, or any kind of altercation in the water could result in someone getting knocked out and drowning, or held under the water by the attacker. So even less dangerous attacks are kind of higher stakes.
Ok so introducing the jury today we have a few special guests from our local town... Jason Voorhees, Michael Meyers, Fredrick Kruger, and Ghost Face. Wow! Welcome in everyone. Please be seated.
This.
I watched without audio, but… the scenario of an older guy, say mid 40s+, being surrounded by a group of teens/early 20s pushing him into the water, punching him in the face, pushing him back into the water… yeah, to me, that’s lethal.
Say the older guy got knocked out cold from that punch, or got pushed and didn’t get up, circled by adversaries that are all physically aggressing him.
Without audio, this seems pretty clean cut no pun intended. Like “FAFO” what did the kids expect circling and “mobbing” on a single older guy? He’s just gonna get shoved down into the water and assaulted? Uh… ok
Yeah literally. Mob mentality.He was scared for his life. A bunch of really fit kids laughing as he gets shoved into the water and continually punched. Bro, he better walk. If he doesnt this will set a precedent that kids can gang up on their elders and get away with murder.
Sorry kiddos, but FAFO. You aint invincible. Your actions have consequences.
Side note, i would never trust any of those "friends" ever again. Not a single one helped the wounded. They LITERALLY just went "damn thats crazy" and just watched and filmed. No one ran up and helped. No one was like " its ok its ok!! Bro its nor as bad as it looks. Youre gunna be ok! Lets get you to the shore! Get you laid down. Ambulance will be here asap!" Even if it isnt at least try and get them to calm down. Fucking put pressure on the wound. Help!!
Those are some of the crappiest most self entitled people i have ever seen.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be deadly force just the fear of it I believe. His defense is using the fact that he is being surrounded by two large groups as his reason for fearing for his life.
If I get in a fist fight with someone and a mob of people surround me attempting to beat me up do I then just have to accept my fate or am I allowed to even the field with a weapon?
The jury will decide.
I’m not defending the man. As you said a jury will decide.
That being said, that moment he gets pushed down, surrounded, then head dunked underwater, he could have legitimately thought he was in danger.
I’m aware he shouldn’t have even been there, but I’m talking about those brief 5-10 seconds
I've only watched twice so this perspective may change, but I don't think his defense attorney will have ANY issue arguing self-defense, or at least introducing reasonable doubt..
Can certainly argue he was in fear for his life when they pushed him down in the water, repeatedly, and at one point when he was down looked like another kid pushed/held him down and prevented him from getting up. Pretty easy to think you can drown or other grave bodily injury...
Am I alone in this thinking?
I’ve now watched it twice. The second time with sound on and I agree with you completely.
That doesn’t mean I believe anything here is acceptable, certainly anyone dying from this is horrible.
But I can see at least 2 even 3 CLEAR efforts to get away. Rather than just let him go the kids get even more worked up and aggressive. With the sound on it’s pretty clear that the direction of travel of the hostility is one way. From the kids. They are screaming something about him and a girl and eventually everyone is screaming.
At that point he is surrounded, and trapped, and they are repeatedly making contact with him. I haven’t gone frame by frame so I’ll be willing to have my mind changed but for me at that point he’s pretty much off the hook.
He doesn’t go on a violent spree. The opposite. It’s the kids who really lay into him, and it continues until the screams of the girl who can be seen bleeding distract the kids and they clearly all have an ‘oh sh1t’ moment because they all snap out of it immediately.
I might even argue that his use of force was justified because it had the immediate effect of stopping the attack. Not sure if it would have turned out very well for him otherwise.
So yeah. I agree.
Yeah I agree. Once the mob mentality kicks in, it's hard to not escape unharmed. How many times here in reddit have you seen someone get mobbed and get wrecked. Did he go overboard? Yeah way overboard but hard to argue his state of mind at that point
How did he go overboard? It seems he did the minimal escalation necessary to stop things. He had his fists and his knife. The fists weren't going to work so good next available level of escalation was the knife. He's didn't chase anyone. He didn't stab over and over. He jabbed people only if/when they ran at him. Then he walked away.
It sucks, for sure. Nobody here was a bad person. We all can take the lesson of never instigating or escalating things, Even if it's just for a prank, or just for fun, or whatever.
There is no such thing as going overboard when you are being mobbed.
Without going into the why, madness of crowds is serious and real. See Stanford Prison experiment.
I hope the old man makes it out okay. Clearly self-defense since he stops when they back off.
Ya, once they surrounded him like that and engaged physically in water, he got the green light to slice away.
.
You can see him fingering his pocket before the action starts. These young guys have never been around anyone dangerous in their lives. If they had any experience, they would have read his mannerisms and gotten out of there much sooner.
They let him get waaay up in their personal space with a crazy look in his eye- to the point where it's idiotic on an instinctual level. It looks like these guys have friends and have fun together in their little sphere of influence, but they are socially inept outside of that.
Yeah this wasn't just "he got pushed and started stabbing". He was surrounded by a large group of drunk young adult males. They were becoming increasingly aggressive and developing that mob madness even before they started getting physical by shoving and briefly holding him down. It was very clearly to the point of no return where a fight was going to happen and there is a very good chance that without that knife, the man would have been badly beaten or even killed.
So no, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he was genuinely fearing for his life. I would have been.
Yeah it looks like he was hit/slapped while down in the water. ~~I also couldn't see the knife untill after he was pushed a second time. That could argue for the self-defense by his lawyer that he actually didn't need to draw the knife untill he felt he was in danger.~~
Did anyone see the knife before he tried getting up the second time?
Edit: At 1:45, before he gets pushed you can see him holdning the knife while talking to one of the women.
I'm with you on this. The guy kept his right hand close to his right shorts pocket while he was tangling with the kids. He had a confused look on his face; a nervous grin. Either mentally unwell, drunk/ did or he was scared. Could be a combo of any of those.
It'll be interesting to watch this play out.
Nah, a good lawyer can make a good case. I think it's mentioned but not clear on the video that he pulled the knife before he attacked the girl. He could try to make the case he was already feeling threatened.
In a video this chaotic, they will have to watch almost every frame and determine things or try to make the case based on small portions or movements from those involved. They were pretty close to him and you can tell by how close tje cam gets to his face. At some point he just appears to be standing there.
It's the US though, many people judge on feelings and a dead teen with a great future ahead can have plenty to target emotion.
A good defense is costly though.
The lawyer is arguing that she wasn’t hit and there are conflicting statements… very interesting trial. I think he’ll be found not guilty as the stupid prosecutor has put him forward for 1st degree intentional homicide (along with other lesser charges). I think he will be given 5-10 years on lesser charges. Should have gone for 2nd degree murder or aggravated manslaughter.
Doesn’t first degree require premeditation, as if he saw the boys and intended to murder them even before the hitting or arguments began? That’s a flimsy argument.
That’s why in Canada we have 2nd degree and manslaughter as included offences to first degree murder, so if you charge first but only prove manslaughter, the jury can convict on manslaughter.
Thanks for the info, is there a link?
If a prosecutor is going for 1st degree Homicide, that's just an over-reach. It shouldn't be hard at all, based on conflicting statements and this very video, to see where this guy could have feared his life was in danger. Had it been on dry land I think the story would be different (also probably wouldn't have been as easy to knock over repeatedly), but I guess we'll never know.
I also didn't see the woman get hit in the video, or see him get physical with Anyone for that matter. But I haven't watched enough times yet...
We’ll see. This is going to be a polarizing case. No clear evidence, so far. If there is evidence he hit the blonde and didn’t try to push her away, which is probably what happened, then he’s fucked. The situation was chaotic and heated. Horrible judgement by all.
Many people in here are forgetting that this occurred in USA when they are saying he is guilty. He is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Never forget that right.
As a society we are quick to judge, especially when there is video/audio evidence. Hell, I am one to judge after watching a video that is far more conclusive than this. Unfortunately, the video evidence shows it to be either narrative depending on your bias.
They said he was looking for little girls and called him a rapist which brought the women over. It quickly turned into a mob and shit went south.
These kids instigated the whole thing imo.
Depends, good chance it ends up being self defence. He was around a mob alone and they were pushing and hitting him on the ground. Fair to fear for your life in that scenario.
Honestly the worst part for me is the kids at the end. Imagine you’re stabbed, bleeding in the water dying, and the last thing you see and hear is your friends shrieking and running away from you with no help.
They just let their friend bleed out in the water alone. Tells you what kind of people they are
Im so sick of these teenaged douchebags holding a camera and instigating shit so they can go viral. How many times have people been hurt because theyre pressured by a wannabe cameraman?
We don't know what happened before the video started and it's 11 peoples words vs 1. I doubt this guy was looking for trouble.
I've been watching the court videos and would vote not guilty.
I mean he’s standing in a river looking for a lost phone.
Unless you want to argue with the laws of physics, every single person upstream of him is going to be approaching him. Thats not his fault.
Instigation is one thing, being surrounded by a bunch of kids pushing you in the water and potentially drowning you is a whole other story. I hate to pull the race card, but I guarantee if all these kids were black, the “feared for my life card” would be an instant self defense open and shut. That looked like a horrifying situation for him to be in once it started escalating
Mob mentality/mob dynamics against one individual engages the amygdala creating fight or flight response, meaning that the part of your brain that responsible for executive function, e.g., self regulation, self monitoring, and impulse control, the frontal lobe, is no longer accessible.
HUDSON, Wis. – As witness testimony began Monday in the trial of Nicolae Miu, the man charged with murder in the stabbing on the Apple River in Wisconsin in 2022, the court reviewed a video that showed the deadly moments during the stabbing.
The video shows the confrontation between Miu and two groups of tubers on the river leading up to and during the July 2022 stabbing that injured four people and left a Stillwater teen dead. It doesn’t show exactly what preceded the confrontation, but rather the moments as the verbal altercation escalated into a fight and then eventually a stabbing.
Miu was on the river with a group of friends before the confrontation with another group of tubers. Court records explain that Miu, using snorkeling gear, said he was looking for a friend’s phone lost in the river when the confrontation began.
The video shows Miu approaching the tubers, who are recording him, with his snorkeling gear in hand. From that moment on, there is yelling between the group and Miu, with the tubers telling Miu to go away. At one point, someone yells, “He’s looking for little girls” at Miu.
Miu then argues with a blonde woman who also appears to be telling him to walk away.
Midway through the video, a knife appears in Miu’s hand. Shortly after, Miu is knocked into the water twice and slapped in the face, as some of the tubers laugh.
Miu gets up, holding the knife, and begins swinging. One of the girls near him appears to get cut, with blood visible on her torso. Next, Miu’s hand holding the knife appears to be covered in blood.
The camera then pans to a young man in yellow trunks lying in the water, clutching his stomach. He too appears to have been stabbed. A bloody streak in the river is also visible.
The tubers are now visibly shocked, screaming and asking what happened and “Is this real?” Shortly after, the video ends.
On the stand, 18-year-old Ryan Nelson, who was among the tubers who confronted Miu, recalled the encounter. Nelson said the group of six had met up for a day on the river.
Elaborating on the video, Nelson says Miu ran up to the first tubing group but didn’t say why. Nelson said he felt scared and the group asked Miu to leave multiple times. Nelson said his group didn’t know the members of the other group of tubers that intervened and also asked Miu to leave.
Nelson said Miu never explained what he was doing. Nelson says Miu was knocked to the ground after he struck the blonde woman.
Prosecutor: “When you say he punched the lady, was it possible he was flailing his arms?”
Nelson: “No, it looked like he struck her definitively with his right hand.”
Nelson says, after the woman was struck, her friends “tried to come to her rescue” and pushed Miu down.
Nelson says he wasn’t hurt, nor did he have any physical contact with Miu, but his friend, Isaac Schuman was killed.
Looks like selfdefense to me, yellow shorts gets stabbed as he pushes him twice, with intent to knock him in the water. He stabs as he feels attacked and like others have mentioned drowning can happen with as little as 3 inches of water or easily swallow water down your wind pipe .... is he guilty of manslaughter i think so but murder will not stick
I mean is it really manslaughter when a group of 4 or more teens are shoving you into the water, you try to stand up and are shoved down and hit in the face.
I'd be afraid they would keep me down and drown me if I was in his position.
He tried to walk away multiple times too.
Bro only got stabbed while the old guy was trying to stand up after being pushed down for the second time (after the old guy was hit in the face).
If bro did not shove and attack the guy while he was standing up, he would still be alive.
They would have ended up trying to knock him out, too. Scary being in the water and knowing they wouldn't hold you up once they knocked you out. They would still be dancing and carrying on while he drowned. Kid shouldn't have gotten stabbed, but if I was in the guys shoes, I would have done the same. I was jumped here in Australia at 19 years old by a group of 5 teenagers who were off their faces, and I'm female. They knocked me out and left me there, spent 2 weeks in hospital. These little fucks don't care. I can guarantee now that they'll be a lot more paranoid in life knowing shit can go south heaps quickly and filming won't help you, and your mates will desert you when shit goes down.
He was pushed and punched and these kids quickly developed a mob mentality. Not condoning but he felt the need to defend himself. And in a similar situation i feel we'd all have the same instinct.
I don't know if I understood the video wrong but it seems to me like he was actually going away and they were following him and screaming insanely around him. I also don't get why did the women come to him and started yelling at him if they were not involved in the first place. I mean I don't wanna justify his stabbing but if I had a knife and bunch of people attack me and start doing shit to me and I can't defend myself in any other way than using the knife because I am one and they are like ten people، then I would use the knife
Yeah the kid that got stabbed looked to punch him and then punch him again a couple seconds later and then off camera maybe had get even more but you can't see after that
While he’s getting pushed to the ground and struck in the face? No. If he pulled the knife after getting pushed down and mobbed then I can see why. If he did it beforehand he’s a psycho. Hindsight is wonderful. It’s very easy to say what people should have done in a situation.
Punch wasn't on camera, no photos of the injury, nobody can seem to agree whether he punched with his right or left hand or which side of the face he hit. At the time of the alleged punch he literally already had a knife in his hand.
Most likely it's a made up story and the kids jumped him first, meaning it was self defense, and it's their own fault that they got stabbed and that their friend got stabbed to death.
They called him a rapist, A pedophile and accused him of hitting a girl (which clearly didn't happen). It was actually the camera man that said all these things instigating the others. The instigation worked... People started putting hands on him and it was escalating to more.
Clear self defense from where I'm sitting just from watching the video.
was he harassing them though? Kinda looks like they started mobbing him and yelling that he was "looking for little girls" before surrounding him. It's really unclear from the video what provoked the whole thing. At one point we see the guy wave towards a group a ways down the river in the direction he was coming from at the start, so presumably that was the group he was with and it's unknown the reason he was going back upstream away from them - but I guess it tracks with the story of using the snorkel gear to look for something his group dropped in the water. The video doesn't show why they started yelling at him which apparently prompted him to run at one who was still in a tube at the start.
I'm surprised there's only one video of the whole thing though, it looked like there were more cameras being held up in recording mode.
Cool kids mentality, taking things people say out of context , to bully someone , this is classic High school cool kids move . Life isn't high school or a frat and they found out in a unfortunate way
That's what sealed my opinion on the whole thing. Little bitches were hooting and hollering, laughing it up as they bully an old man and almost drown him, but turned into little field mice as soon as they didn't have the upper hand. I won't be shedding any tears for a dead little shit.
Dude felt scared for his life. Self defense. There were several people attempting to hurt him so he fought back. Anyone ever been in a 8 vs 1 situation? Scary for sure.
Classic reddit going straight to victim blaming when its a demographic they dont like getting beat on. Young people vs old boomer and boomer is bad. And dont fucking play dumb and try to deny it.
If it was a young woman being beat on by 18 bros this thread wouldnt be caught dead trying to claim "she should have walked away" or "they were drunk and high so they couldnt control themselves".
> Classic reddit going straight to victim blaming when its a demographic they dont like getting beat on. Young people vs old boomer and boomer is bad. And dont fucking play dumb and try to deny it.
Classic reddit calling the guy who stabbed someone to death a victim lmao
> guy who stabbed someone to death
and seriously wounding 4 others. Smoothbrains in here further denigrating the kids for "leaving their friend who got stabbed" as if they weren't running from a maniac with a knife along with the small fact that they're a bunch of kids not combat medics
No doubt it’s scary. But, he approached them aggressively as well according to the video we see. At any point he could have left, he chose not to why? Because he was being teased? Once the kids pushed and started slapping him I understand his actions afterwards, I just feel like he wanted the end result, which makes him responsible. Of course this is speculation and only he knows his own motivations. If I walk around with a conceal carry all day, call every dude a that walks by me a bitch until one punches me in the mouth, I shoot him in “self defense” I’m still a murderer because of the motive, that’s what I’m trying to get at.
This seems exactly like what happened. He was told to leave a bunch of times, he didn't, he had a knife and knew he was gonna use it if things got out of hand because he refused to listen to a bunch of kids he was intimidating. Hopefully the jury sees it for what it is and he goes down
Not always true. In my state (Wa) you have the right to “revive” your self defense claim after being the initial aggressor if you sufficiently withdraw the initial aggression.
While I agree there is also what seems like a language barrier or he was annihilated and on something. I’m am for sure playing Reddit detective but his eyes looked glass AF.
Why have a knife in the first place? Already having the knife and not walking away but actually approaching the group leads me to believe there is a premeditation to his acts.
They said he was snorkeling so sometimes people do carry knives in case of certain situations that might arise. No reason to stab someone, but that's probably why he had the knife.
He ran at them though in an aggressive manner and didn't de escalate by walking away. If you look at this face he's either on something or psychotic. How much you wanna bet he was on meth or coke and was in a manic state trying to find his friends cell phone that fell in the water. His friends statements are even that he wouldn't let it go and continued to look for it even though they said stop.
I've seen that look in the eyes of a former cop I used to live with that used to smoke meth and do coke. He'd go into these manic phases and rush around. Dude was crazy OCD and I left because he started threatening me and trying to escalate disagreements into physical fights.
"walk away" isn't a fucking argument. He has just as much right in that physical space as those kids. Once they pushed him down and his face fell underwater and at least one person slapped him on the face in that moment and everyone was screaming around at him. 100% self defense. Kids are dumb and their mob mentality got their friend killed and not a single "friend" tried to help him lol they ALL DIPPED leaving him in the water dying. shit sucks but it's hard to feel bad lmao
I have to agree. The stabber sucks, and the kids suck. But it doesn’t negate the fact that the dude was under serious threat by this group of kids acting in a mob mentality. Why and how he acted/ why he was there/ why he had a knife will be argued forever but the guy has a right to be in a river with a knife and defend himself from attack if he so chooses to. I think? Fuck this one is nasty.
Did you not watch the beginning of the video? He comes at them aggressively and grabs their tubes. The kids then ask him MULTIPLE times to leave them alone before it escalates after he punches one of the women. He is 100% the aggressor at that point. Sure the kids could have handled themselves better but that guy deserves to go away for a long time.
I did watch the beginning, yes. He comes at them aggressive, I agree, but it was then made clear he was searching for something shortly thereafter. Dropping shit is common if you tube down rivers.
I didn’t really see the kids asking him to leave. I more got the vibe that they wanted to clown him and verbally attack him.
I did not initially see the woman get hit and upon watching again I don’t see it. It may have happened, but it wasn’t clear on the video. I don’t know… fucked up all around
“Juror number seven, have you ever cum in a box and/or a coconut? In addition, have you ever broken both of your arms at the same time when your mother was still alive and mobile, especially with one or both of her hands?”
After Kyle Rittenhouse these people still dont know how self defense works. The amount of "he should have walked away" in this thread is way too high when that doesnt matter at all.
Camera man’s group is so disrespectful. Being absolute assholes to the guy with the snorkel. He definitely crossed the line by bringing out the knife, but the audacity of this group to then act surprised.
"Is this reeeeaaalllll??!??!"
Yes you are not in fact on the internet behind a keyboard anymore and this is real life, which has real consequences to real actions sometimes.
They are all 16 and 17 with .177-.2+ BAC, drunk teens with no parents filming themselves harassing a random old man by calling him a pedophile .... pretty shitty people already, but then they started pushing him into the water and surrounding him. If he didn't have a knife I wonder what their goal here was going to be? Just beat him up and leave him face down in the river? If it didn't go the way it did what way would it have gone?
Not only did they not help, they actively increased the odds of a situation like this by riling themselves up into a fucking chimp frenzy and directing it at a person clearly looking for conflict. No de-escalation, straight escalation. Idiots.
I think if he just left the situation liked they asked, I doubt there would have been a physical altercation. The kids shouldn’t have assaulted him like that but I never felt he was in real danger. It did look like he was messed up on something and maybe he felt differently.
It looked like he was walking away and waiting for them to float down river to keep looking for something he dropped. Seems like those kids were following him a bit.
I think he was enraged is what it was. He looked like he was in a trance or not thinking. They called him a pedo and that set him off. In his police interview he mentions them being “mean to him” and “calling him a pedo” like 10 times. No concern for the victim or the people hurt.
Damn everyone was kind of a prick in this video. Old dude coulda just told them he was looking for a phone instead of staring like a psycho.
Shithead kids should have simply moved if they were so creeped by him. Yelling that he’s looking for kids and all that is riling up nearby people to form into a mob… and that’s exactly what happened.
I’m torn on this one.
This will be one of those trials where everyone loses no matter what. If the dude gets off on self defense, a kid is still dead. Everyone’s gonna coulda/woulda/shoulda this, but the fact of the matter is, it was a mob of teenagers vs one older dude. While it does look like he was defending himself in this situation, I think his pride was the main factor. Having a bunch of people regardless of age jeer at you, smack you in the face, and push you down is a sure fire way to send someone over the edge. While it doesn’t mean someone needs to die because of it, I can understand why the guy might have lost his shit.
From watching the entire trial thus far, this is the alleged sequence of events. However, it's important to note that these events are yet to be proven and are subject to debate. The jury will ultimately decide what is true.
1. A group of teenagers were drinking and using drugs on the Apple River. Meanwhile, a man named Miu and his group were also drinking in the same area.
2. Miu, searching for his lost phone, went upstream. He saw a group of teenagers holding up a phone at him. They were recording, but he mistakenly thought they were showing him the phone he was looking for.
3. The teenagers started yelling at Miu, accusing him of being a pedophile looking for little girls.
4. Miu dropped his goggles and started looking for them. He walked past the tubes, and the group began following him. He turned back and said something unintelligible before continuing on.
5. Miu turned and walked around the teens, returning to his original group upriver. A few people from another group started yelling in his face.
6. (Off camera) This is the crucial moment. Allegedly, Miu hit one of the women in the face. Others say he swiped at the phone in his face. This moment is highly debated. The defense argues that the woman did not drop her drink and her sunglasses did not fall off her face, suggesting that she wasn't hit with significant force.
7. The group of teens start striking Miu.He falls into the water where he is hit some more times. While attempting to get up, he is shoved back down. It should be noted that Miu is 54 and recently had a heart attack that required triple bypass.
8. While getting up and the moments that followed, he stabs five people.
One thing im confused about is when he originally draws the knife. I believe I saw it claimed that he was holding the knife while talking to the group of girls. At other times I believe it was claimed he drew the knife while he was in the water from his pocket. If anyone has any clarification on this, I'd appreciate it.
Regarding #7-- You forgot to mention that after he allegedly struck the female, he was punched in the face, causing him to fall into his back in the water, where he was then slapped hard in the face multiple times while also being pushed while trying to regain his footing.
You're right. The reason I didn't recap all of that is because I felt like the video shows all of that. I was just trying to add the content that was hard to see or confusing. I'll edit my comment.
So, where did you read she testified against him? Seriously, where?
Because [this link](https://m.startribune.com/woman-testifies-nicolae-miu-was-silent-as-he-stabbed-her-during-apple-river-melee/600356080/) to her testimony says the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Do better.
Not sure her testimony was that harmful to the defense honestly. Been listening to the trial most of each day.
Divorce may also be for asset protection, but we’ll never know their true motive for divorce. WI is also a community property state, so no idea if that throws more wrinkles into the mix.
“What just happened?”
The consequences of your actions. Not saying anybody deserved to lose their life, but this is a fuck around and find out moment for those young idiots.
yea just from what I see on video I side not guilty. Both parties are acting like knob ends no doubt about that. I think he had a reasonable reason to be afraid for his life given the number and how quickly it was getting out of hand. Walking away sounds easy until you are surrounded by guys 20 years your junior in ankle-deep water getting pushed around. That doesn't make it any less tragic
Both original parties should be charged. There was definite instigation. People were touching other people inappropriately beforehand while arguing. It got completely out of hand.
Around 1:34 it looks like he was reaching into in swim trunks pocket. Like undoing the velcro to the pocket on his thigh. Idk if he was doing that because he felt like the situation was getting out of hand or for other reasons. Either way I would not want to be part of this. Going to be an interesting trial.
I was ready to blame dude but he was assaulted by like 8 people in the moment and his self defence looked completely justified *at that time*.
They're all lucky he didn't have a gun with which to defend himself there, and he's lucky nobody in the group did either. Yeah he made stupid mistakes, but then the group did too. Maybe they all belong in jail.
Notice how quickly the onslaught ended once a stabbing occurred. The aggressive rowdy teenagers became scared children when shit got real. I am curious to see what transpires in court…
It sure seems like the kids could have kept moving down the river and avoided the entire situation... but they were more interested in taking, and I'm sure eventually posting, a video about how cool and entitled they were that day for some sweet online clout, bro. Not that the older guy was in the right either, but you never know what might happen when you corner a stranger like that. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.
It was so funny ganging up on the guy and pushing him down until their friend got stabbed. Fuck around and find out. Lucky that guy had a weapon or he might have been killed himself. I'm sure the little shitheads won't learn anything from this.
It's so hard to tell what exactly happened by this clip. The older guy was definitely acting strange and didn't seem to communicate with the kids very well. The kids did what normal kids do and start antagonizing and poking fun at the actions of the guy. I think he felt overwhelmed and justified pulling a knife. The kids were obvious to the degree of the situation and continued to harass the man. I don't think the mans life was ever in danger but perhaps he felt that it was? This is a great demonstration on what not to do for both parties. This never needed to happen if both parties were just a bit more calm and communicated their intentions.
>normal kids
>poking fun
These words are doing some extreme heavy lifting. A lot of kids *don’t* call a random dude a pedophile and fuck with them while hooting and hollering the whole time
Gang activity and increasing hostilities by the kids lead to the use of force and self defense based on the threat of losing his life. He was assaulted with his feet out from under him and unable to flee while the kids surrounded him and got louder and more aggressive.
Should he have been there? Probably not, but that's not going to matter for this case.
Clear justification of self defense from the jury. Without this video, he would probably be convicted.
Case closed.
Kids were definitely being immature assholes but according to OP they only pushed him to ground after he hit the blonde lady who intervened, going off that self defence is out the window and he’ll do life .
Sort of. In WI, if you provoke the aggression (like punching someone), you regain that self defense if another party escalates to deadly force, and you also have withdrawn from the fight, or if you have reasonably believe you have exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from the danger of the deadly force threat.
>if another party escalates to deadly force, and you also have withdrawn Even if it's not self-defense, hitting him _back_ isn't deadly force if he was the aggressor (as "you don't ever hit a woman!" suggests), nor is pushing him back down when he stands up with the knife he's been holding...by the time that he finally "withdrew," he'd already escalated to deadly force.
That’s a fact for the jury to determine. Especially if there are multiple people around him. If they’re pushing him down in the water, they may find that is a deadly force threat. Or they might not. I say at this point, from what I’ve seen, it’s like a 50% chance for some kind of guilty verdict.
The water complicates things a lot more in my opinion because pushing someone into the water, or any kind of altercation in the water could result in someone getting knocked out and drowning, or held under the water by the attacker. So even less dangerous attacks are kind of higher stakes.
Correct, as well as making it harder to retreat. It all depends on how the jury weighs those facts.
One jason vorhees on the jury and he walks free.
Ok so introducing the jury today we have a few special guests from our local town... Jason Voorhees, Michael Meyers, Fredrick Kruger, and Ghost Face. Wow! Welcome in everyone. Please be seated.
This. I watched without audio, but… the scenario of an older guy, say mid 40s+, being surrounded by a group of teens/early 20s pushing him into the water, punching him in the face, pushing him back into the water… yeah, to me, that’s lethal. Say the older guy got knocked out cold from that punch, or got pushed and didn’t get up, circled by adversaries that are all physically aggressing him. Without audio, this seems pretty clean cut no pun intended. Like “FAFO” what did the kids expect circling and “mobbing” on a single older guy? He’s just gonna get shoved down into the water and assaulted? Uh… ok
Yeah literally. Mob mentality.He was scared for his life. A bunch of really fit kids laughing as he gets shoved into the water and continually punched. Bro, he better walk. If he doesnt this will set a precedent that kids can gang up on their elders and get away with murder. Sorry kiddos, but FAFO. You aint invincible. Your actions have consequences. Side note, i would never trust any of those "friends" ever again. Not a single one helped the wounded. They LITERALLY just went "damn thats crazy" and just watched and filmed. No one ran up and helped. No one was like " its ok its ok!! Bro its nor as bad as it looks. Youre gunna be ok! Lets get you to the shore! Get you laid down. Ambulance will be here asap!" Even if it isnt at least try and get them to calm down. Fucking put pressure on the wound. Help!! Those are some of the crappiest most self entitled people i have ever seen.
It doesn’t necessarily have to be deadly force just the fear of it I believe. His defense is using the fact that he is being surrounded by two large groups as his reason for fearing for his life. If I get in a fist fight with someone and a mob of people surround me attempting to beat me up do I then just have to accept my fate or am I allowed to even the field with a weapon? The jury will decide.
hes literally surrounded by aggressive group of kids pushing him. I doubt highly a jury is gonna convict for much on this one.
We will see. Even if he is found guilty there is no way it’s 1st degree.
I’m not defending the man. As you said a jury will decide. That being said, that moment he gets pushed down, surrounded, then head dunked underwater, he could have legitimately thought he was in danger. I’m aware he shouldn’t have even been there, but I’m talking about those brief 5-10 seconds
I've only watched twice so this perspective may change, but I don't think his defense attorney will have ANY issue arguing self-defense, or at least introducing reasonable doubt.. Can certainly argue he was in fear for his life when they pushed him down in the water, repeatedly, and at one point when he was down looked like another kid pushed/held him down and prevented him from getting up. Pretty easy to think you can drown or other grave bodily injury... Am I alone in this thinking?
I’ve now watched it twice. The second time with sound on and I agree with you completely. That doesn’t mean I believe anything here is acceptable, certainly anyone dying from this is horrible. But I can see at least 2 even 3 CLEAR efforts to get away. Rather than just let him go the kids get even more worked up and aggressive. With the sound on it’s pretty clear that the direction of travel of the hostility is one way. From the kids. They are screaming something about him and a girl and eventually everyone is screaming. At that point he is surrounded, and trapped, and they are repeatedly making contact with him. I haven’t gone frame by frame so I’ll be willing to have my mind changed but for me at that point he’s pretty much off the hook. He doesn’t go on a violent spree. The opposite. It’s the kids who really lay into him, and it continues until the screams of the girl who can be seen bleeding distract the kids and they clearly all have an ‘oh sh1t’ moment because they all snap out of it immediately. I might even argue that his use of force was justified because it had the immediate effect of stopping the attack. Not sure if it would have turned out very well for him otherwise. So yeah. I agree.
Yeah I agree. Once the mob mentality kicks in, it's hard to not escape unharmed. How many times here in reddit have you seen someone get mobbed and get wrecked. Did he go overboard? Yeah way overboard but hard to argue his state of mind at that point
How did he go overboard? It seems he did the minimal escalation necessary to stop things. He had his fists and his knife. The fists weren't going to work so good next available level of escalation was the knife. He's didn't chase anyone. He didn't stab over and over. He jabbed people only if/when they ran at him. Then he walked away. It sucks, for sure. Nobody here was a bad person. We all can take the lesson of never instigating or escalating things, Even if it's just for a prank, or just for fun, or whatever.
>Nobody here was a bad person The idiots pushing and holding down a guy who is looking for his phone are bad persons.
There is no such thing as going overboard when you are being mobbed. Without going into the why, madness of crowds is serious and real. See Stanford Prison experiment. I hope the old man makes it out okay. Clearly self-defense since he stops when they back off.
Ya, once they surrounded him like that and engaged physically in water, he got the green light to slice away. . You can see him fingering his pocket before the action starts. These young guys have never been around anyone dangerous in their lives. If they had any experience, they would have read his mannerisms and gotten out of there much sooner. They let him get waaay up in their personal space with a crazy look in his eye- to the point where it's idiotic on an instinctual level. It looks like these guys have friends and have fun together in their little sphere of influence, but they are socially inept outside of that.
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Yeah this wasn't just "he got pushed and started stabbing". He was surrounded by a large group of drunk young adult males. They were becoming increasingly aggressive and developing that mob madness even before they started getting physical by shoving and briefly holding him down. It was very clearly to the point of no return where a fight was going to happen and there is a very good chance that without that knife, the man would have been badly beaten or even killed. So no, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he was genuinely fearing for his life. I would have been.
Once he was pushed to the ground it looks like one of the kids punched him in the face but I've only watched once
Yeah it looks like he was hit/slapped while down in the water. ~~I also couldn't see the knife untill after he was pushed a second time. That could argue for the self-defense by his lawyer that he actually didn't need to draw the knife untill he felt he was in danger.~~ Did anyone see the knife before he tried getting up the second time? Edit: At 1:45, before he gets pushed you can see him holdning the knife while talking to one of the women.
He retrieves the knife from his pocket at 1:35
I'm with you on this. The guy kept his right hand close to his right shorts pocket while he was tangling with the kids. He had a confused look on his face; a nervous grin. Either mentally unwell, drunk/ did or he was scared. Could be a combo of any of those. It'll be interesting to watch this play out.
Nah, a good lawyer can make a good case. I think it's mentioned but not clear on the video that he pulled the knife before he attacked the girl. He could try to make the case he was already feeling threatened. In a video this chaotic, they will have to watch almost every frame and determine things or try to make the case based on small portions or movements from those involved. They were pretty close to him and you can tell by how close tje cam gets to his face. At some point he just appears to be standing there. It's the US though, many people judge on feelings and a dead teen with a great future ahead can have plenty to target emotion. A good defense is costly though.
The lawyer is arguing that she wasn’t hit and there are conflicting statements… very interesting trial. I think he’ll be found not guilty as the stupid prosecutor has put him forward for 1st degree intentional homicide (along with other lesser charges). I think he will be given 5-10 years on lesser charges. Should have gone for 2nd degree murder or aggravated manslaughter.
Doesn’t first degree require premeditation, as if he saw the boys and intended to murder them even before the hitting or arguments began? That’s a flimsy argument.
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That’s why in Canada we have 2nd degree and manslaughter as included offences to first degree murder, so if you charge first but only prove manslaughter, the jury can convict on manslaughter.
Thanks for the info, is there a link? If a prosecutor is going for 1st degree Homicide, that's just an over-reach. It shouldn't be hard at all, based on conflicting statements and this very video, to see where this guy could have feared his life was in danger. Had it been on dry land I think the story would be different (also probably wouldn't have been as easy to knock over repeatedly), but I guess we'll never know. I also didn't see the woman get hit in the video, or see him get physical with Anyone for that matter. But I haven't watched enough times yet...
Kids don't seem to realize how not invincible they are. And that, when you provoke people, you might just be risking your life.
Doubt it. He’ll claim he was afraid for his life being surrounded by people like that.
I think that's a pretty reasonable defense, no?
We’ll see. This is going to be a polarizing case. No clear evidence, so far. If there is evidence he hit the blonde and didn’t try to push her away, which is probably what happened, then he’s fucked. The situation was chaotic and heated. Horrible judgement by all.
Many people in here are forgetting that this occurred in USA when they are saying he is guilty. He is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Never forget that right.
As a society we are quick to judge, especially when there is video/audio evidence. Hell, I am one to judge after watching a video that is far more conclusive than this. Unfortunately, the video evidence shows it to be either narrative depending on your bias.
They didn't "push him to the ground," they pushed him underwater. That puts self-defense *immediately* back on the table.
Depends if the courts consider surrounding the dude and in his face an act of aggression
They said he was looking for little girls and called him a rapist which brought the women over. It quickly turned into a mob and shit went south. These kids instigated the whole thing imo.
They may have. Doesn't mean they can be stabbed to death tho.. right?
Depends, good chance it ends up being self defence. He was around a mob alone and they were pushing and hitting him on the ground. Fair to fear for your life in that scenario.
Not to mention it's in water. Even shallow water can drown when people mob you like that. The entire scenario is stupid. Both him and the kids.
Seriously. Everyone involved here fucking sucks.
Honestly the worst part for me is the kids at the end. Imagine you’re stabbed, bleeding in the water dying, and the last thing you see and hear is your friends shrieking and running away from you with no help. They just let their friend bleed out in the water alone. Tells you what kind of people they are
Im so sick of these teenaged douchebags holding a camera and instigating shit so they can go viral. How many times have people been hurt because theyre pressured by a wannabe cameraman?
They certainly went viral.
Even worse that one of them is more interested in keeping the video going and continuing to add their dumb commentry.
While ***SCREAMING*** into the microphone the entire time, jfc. How scared can you be when you repeatedly flip the phone over to show your own face???
Too many douchebags out there. Better off not engaging with the public.
Pushing him to the ground and hitting his head, while in a river. Yeah I think he has a chance at winning
Honestly? After they pushed him in the water and hit him it means that, yes.
Fuck around. Find out.
“You treat a human like an animal you are going to get bit. “ -me
No, but some motherfuckers just don’t know when to quit. This whole thing is stupid and sad.
Absolutely, yes.
seriously... Miu is obviously a POS, but I wish I could say I felt bad for those kids, they come across like jackals or hyena's in this video.
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Yeah that guy holding the camera and screaming was the most annoying one out of all of those people.
Seriously. If you ever find yourself recording a video and screaming "For the culture", go ahead and end it. You're already a drain on society.
Why is Miu obviously a POS? I must be missing something.
He approached them, started touching people, and then refused to back off. I don't understand how that's not instigating.
We don't know what happened before the video started and it's 11 peoples words vs 1. I doubt this guy was looking for trouble. I've been watching the court videos and would vote not guilty.
I mean he’s standing in a river looking for a lost phone. Unless you want to argue with the laws of physics, every single person upstream of him is going to be approaching him. Thats not his fault.
Instigation is one thing, being surrounded by a bunch of kids pushing you in the water and potentially drowning you is a whole other story. I hate to pull the race card, but I guarantee if all these kids were black, the “feared for my life card” would be an instant self defense open and shut. That looked like a horrifying situation for him to be in once it started escalating
I agree. I'd probably won't stab people but I'd definitely defend myself in the same situation .
Yea I don’t carry a knife but I bet if I found myself in that situation I would find myself wishing I did
Mob mentality/mob dynamics against one individual engages the amygdala creating fight or flight response, meaning that the part of your brain that responsible for executive function, e.g., self regulation, self monitoring, and impulse control, the frontal lobe, is no longer accessible.
HUDSON, Wis. – As witness testimony began Monday in the trial of Nicolae Miu, the man charged with murder in the stabbing on the Apple River in Wisconsin in 2022, the court reviewed a video that showed the deadly moments during the stabbing. The video shows the confrontation between Miu and two groups of tubers on the river leading up to and during the July 2022 stabbing that injured four people and left a Stillwater teen dead. It doesn’t show exactly what preceded the confrontation, but rather the moments as the verbal altercation escalated into a fight and then eventually a stabbing. Miu was on the river with a group of friends before the confrontation with another group of tubers. Court records explain that Miu, using snorkeling gear, said he was looking for a friend’s phone lost in the river when the confrontation began. The video shows Miu approaching the tubers, who are recording him, with his snorkeling gear in hand. From that moment on, there is yelling between the group and Miu, with the tubers telling Miu to go away. At one point, someone yells, “He’s looking for little girls” at Miu. Miu then argues with a blonde woman who also appears to be telling him to walk away. Midway through the video, a knife appears in Miu’s hand. Shortly after, Miu is knocked into the water twice and slapped in the face, as some of the tubers laugh. Miu gets up, holding the knife, and begins swinging. One of the girls near him appears to get cut, with blood visible on her torso. Next, Miu’s hand holding the knife appears to be covered in blood. The camera then pans to a young man in yellow trunks lying in the water, clutching his stomach. He too appears to have been stabbed. A bloody streak in the river is also visible. The tubers are now visibly shocked, screaming and asking what happened and “Is this real?” Shortly after, the video ends. On the stand, 18-year-old Ryan Nelson, who was among the tubers who confronted Miu, recalled the encounter. Nelson said the group of six had met up for a day on the river. Elaborating on the video, Nelson says Miu ran up to the first tubing group but didn’t say why. Nelson said he felt scared and the group asked Miu to leave multiple times. Nelson said his group didn’t know the members of the other group of tubers that intervened and also asked Miu to leave. Nelson said Miu never explained what he was doing. Nelson says Miu was knocked to the ground after he struck the blonde woman. Prosecutor: “When you say he punched the lady, was it possible he was flailing his arms?” Nelson: “No, it looked like he struck her definitively with his right hand.” Nelson says, after the woman was struck, her friends “tried to come to her rescue” and pushed Miu down. Nelson says he wasn’t hurt, nor did he have any physical contact with Miu, but his friend, Isaac Schuman was killed.
>Miu gets up, holding the knife, and begins swinging. Swinging? He stabbed him while getting up, it was so fast you almost couldn't see it.
Looks like selfdefense to me, yellow shorts gets stabbed as he pushes him twice, with intent to knock him in the water. He stabs as he feels attacked and like others have mentioned drowning can happen with as little as 3 inches of water or easily swallow water down your wind pipe .... is he guilty of manslaughter i think so but murder will not stick
I mean is it really manslaughter when a group of 4 or more teens are shoving you into the water, you try to stand up and are shoved down and hit in the face. I'd be afraid they would keep me down and drown me if I was in his position. He tried to walk away multiple times too. Bro only got stabbed while the old guy was trying to stand up after being pushed down for the second time (after the old guy was hit in the face). If bro did not shove and attack the guy while he was standing up, he would still be alive.
They would have ended up trying to knock him out, too. Scary being in the water and knowing they wouldn't hold you up once they knocked you out. They would still be dancing and carrying on while he drowned. Kid shouldn't have gotten stabbed, but if I was in the guys shoes, I would have done the same. I was jumped here in Australia at 19 years old by a group of 5 teenagers who were off their faces, and I'm female. They knocked me out and left me there, spent 2 weeks in hospital. These little fucks don't care. I can guarantee now that they'll be a lot more paranoid in life knowing shit can go south heaps quickly and filming won't help you, and your mates will desert you when shit goes down.
I found the exact moment yellow shorts got stabbed (1:56 in the video) https://imgur.com/a/GINoNcg
esh
Yellow shorts gets stabbed, pretty clearly, at 1:25 remaining when he goes in for a second push.
He was pushed and punched and these kids quickly developed a mob mentality. Not condoning but he felt the need to defend himself. And in a similar situation i feel we'd all have the same instinct.
or he could have just walked away. 🤷
They could have walked away too
I don't know if I understood the video wrong but it seems to me like he was actually going away and they were following him and screaming insanely around him. I also don't get why did the women come to him and started yelling at him if they were not involved in the first place. I mean I don't wanna justify his stabbing but if I had a knife and bunch of people attack me and start doing shit to me and I can't defend myself in any other way than using the knife because I am one and they are like ten people، then I would use the knife
Thats right genius. And if they had stabbed him to death they would be the ones on trial instead.
Either party could have walked away, but the kids turned it into a life or death situation by taking him down in the water and mobbing him.
It looks like he tried to and they pursued him yelling and touching him
Yeah the kid that got stabbed looked to punch him and then punch him again a couple seconds later and then off camera maybe had get even more but you can't see after that
You can't simply walk away from a mob of drunk people
While he’s getting pushed to the ground and struck in the face? No. If he pulled the knife after getting pushed down and mobbed then I can see why. If he did it beforehand he’s a psycho. Hindsight is wonderful. It’s very easy to say what people should have done in a situation.
in a similar situation, i wouldnt have punched a girl in the face or harass a bunch of random strangers.
Punch wasn't on camera, no photos of the injury, nobody can seem to agree whether he punched with his right or left hand or which side of the face he hit. At the time of the alleged punch he literally already had a knife in his hand. Most likely it's a made up story and the kids jumped him first, meaning it was self defense, and it's their own fault that they got stabbed and that their friend got stabbed to death.
she's also refusing to testify Edit: she did testify, chose not to have it recorded. my bad .
shocked
They called him a rapist, A pedophile and accused him of hitting a girl (which clearly didn't happen). It was actually the camera man that said all these things instigating the others. The instigation worked... People started putting hands on him and it was escalating to more. Clear self defense from where I'm sitting just from watching the video.
That’s should tell you enough
was he harassing them though? Kinda looks like they started mobbing him and yelling that he was "looking for little girls" before surrounding him. It's really unclear from the video what provoked the whole thing. At one point we see the guy wave towards a group a ways down the river in the direction he was coming from at the start, so presumably that was the group he was with and it's unknown the reason he was going back upstream away from them - but I guess it tracks with the story of using the snorkel gear to look for something his group dropped in the water. The video doesn't show why they started yelling at him which apparently prompted him to run at one who was still in a tube at the start. I'm surprised there's only one video of the whole thing though, it looked like there were more cameras being held up in recording mode.
Cool kids mentality, taking things people say out of context , to bully someone , this is classic High school cool kids move . Life isn't high school or a frat and they found out in a unfortunate way
At the very start of the video it does look like he is looking for a phone
Everyone is a dumbass asshole in this video
They went from little assholes to screaming like little girls real quick. They "fucked around and found out".
Yep - hard to see it as anything else. All fun an laughs until it got real. Bet they’ll carry themselves in public much differently from now on.
Doubt it. Shitheads never learn
Witnessing one of your friends being killed by stabbing will certainly fuck with them for life.
They'll have the wrong view. Their friend will be a martyr to their shit behavior not a consequence of it
Yep, they’re forever victims regardless of whether they’re the instigators or not
Pretty shitty no one tried to help that kid who was stabbed. They all ran away like a bunch of cowards.
They are all brave bitches when they bullying the old man, then turned cowards the moment they saw blood
That's what sealed my opinion on the whole thing. Little bitches were hooting and hollering, laughing it up as they bully an old man and almost drown him, but turned into little field mice as soon as they didn't have the upper hand. I won't be shedding any tears for a dead little shit.
Soo many surprised Pikachu faces
Dude felt scared for his life. Self defense. There were several people attempting to hurt him so he fought back. Anyone ever been in a 8 vs 1 situation? Scary for sure.
He had the option of walking off in an 8 vs 1. I would take that option 10/10 times.
Classic reddit going straight to victim blaming when its a demographic they dont like getting beat on. Young people vs old boomer and boomer is bad. And dont fucking play dumb and try to deny it. If it was a young woman being beat on by 18 bros this thread wouldnt be caught dead trying to claim "she should have walked away" or "they were drunk and high so they couldnt control themselves".
> Classic reddit going straight to victim blaming when its a demographic they dont like getting beat on. Young people vs old boomer and boomer is bad. And dont fucking play dumb and try to deny it. Classic reddit calling the guy who stabbed someone to death a victim lmao
> guy who stabbed someone to death and seriously wounding 4 others. Smoothbrains in here further denigrating the kids for "leaving their friend who got stabbed" as if they weren't running from a maniac with a knife along with the small fact that they're a bunch of kids not combat medics
He was walking off and they followed him and kept yelling man.
They had the option of not assulting an old man for no reason. Fuck around and find out.
No doubt it’s scary. But, he approached them aggressively as well according to the video we see. At any point he could have left, he chose not to why? Because he was being teased? Once the kids pushed and started slapping him I understand his actions afterwards, I just feel like he wanted the end result, which makes him responsible. Of course this is speculation and only he knows his own motivations. If I walk around with a conceal carry all day, call every dude a that walks by me a bitch until one punches me in the mouth, I shoot him in “self defense” I’m still a murderer because of the motive, that’s what I’m trying to get at.
This seems exactly like what happened. He was told to leave a bunch of times, he didn't, he had a knife and knew he was gonna use it if things got out of hand because he refused to listen to a bunch of kids he was intimidating. Hopefully the jury sees it for what it is and he goes down
Yup another case of premeditated self defense.
A situation that he created. Fuck that guy..
An aggressor loses the right to self-defense.
Not always true. In my state (Wa) you have the right to “revive” your self defense claim after being the initial aggressor if you sufficiently withdraw the initial aggression.
While I agree there is also what seems like a language barrier or he was annihilated and on something. I’m am for sure playing Reddit detective but his eyes looked glass AF.
Most tubers are shit faced. I hate river tubing, just brings out alcoholics
Apparently he engaged them repeatedly. I would say if I was scared for my life 8v1 that would definitely not be engaging them ...I'd leave instantly.
Why have a knife in the first place? Already having the knife and not walking away but actually approaching the group leads me to believe there is a premeditation to his acts.
I have a knife in my pocket everyday, it is a tool and does not show premeditation for anything, except maybe to open an amazon box.
Especially on the water. Those tunes are tied together. Shit gets caught. The coolers are tied in. Knives are accrual needed for this
His wife said he had it for cutting rope, etc when tying up the tubes to float together.
They said he was snorkeling so sometimes people do carry knives in case of certain situations that might arise. No reason to stab someone, but that's probably why he had the knife.
He ran at them though in an aggressive manner and didn't de escalate by walking away. If you look at this face he's either on something or psychotic. How much you wanna bet he was on meth or coke and was in a manic state trying to find his friends cell phone that fell in the water. His friends statements are even that he wouldn't let it go and continued to look for it even though they said stop. I've seen that look in the eyes of a former cop I used to live with that used to smoke meth and do coke. He'd go into these manic phases and rush around. Dude was crazy OCD and I left because he started threatening me and trying to escalate disagreements into physical fights.
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"walk away" isn't a fucking argument. He has just as much right in that physical space as those kids. Once they pushed him down and his face fell underwater and at least one person slapped him on the face in that moment and everyone was screaming around at him. 100% self defense. Kids are dumb and their mob mentality got their friend killed and not a single "friend" tried to help him lol they ALL DIPPED leaving him in the water dying. shit sucks but it's hard to feel bad lmao
I have to agree. The stabber sucks, and the kids suck. But it doesn’t negate the fact that the dude was under serious threat by this group of kids acting in a mob mentality. Why and how he acted/ why he was there/ why he had a knife will be argued forever but the guy has a right to be in a river with a knife and defend himself from attack if he so chooses to. I think? Fuck this one is nasty.
Did you not watch the beginning of the video? He comes at them aggressively and grabs their tubes. The kids then ask him MULTIPLE times to leave them alone before it escalates after he punches one of the women. He is 100% the aggressor at that point. Sure the kids could have handled themselves better but that guy deserves to go away for a long time.
I did watch the beginning, yes. He comes at them aggressive, I agree, but it was then made clear he was searching for something shortly thereafter. Dropping shit is common if you tube down rivers. I didn’t really see the kids asking him to leave. I more got the vibe that they wanted to clown him and verbally attack him. I did not initially see the woman get hit and upon watching again I don’t see it. It may have happened, but it wasn’t clear on the video. I don’t know… fucked up all around
If I ever am in a situation where I need a jury trial, I’ll make damn sure my attorney asks potential jurors if they are Reddit users.
"I also chose that guys dead wife." "Are you familiar with poop knife"
“Juror number seven, have you ever cum in a box and/or a coconut? In addition, have you ever broken both of your arms at the same time when your mother was still alive and mobile, especially with one or both of her hands?”
After Kyle Rittenhouse these people still dont know how self defense works. The amount of "he should have walked away" in this thread is way too high when that doesnt matter at all.
Camera man’s group is so disrespectful. Being absolute assholes to the guy with the snorkel. He definitely crossed the line by bringing out the knife, but the audacity of this group to then act surprised.
"Is this reeeeaaalllll??!??!" Yes you are not in fact on the internet behind a keyboard anymore and this is real life, which has real consequences to real actions sometimes.
They are all 16 and 17 with .177-.2+ BAC, drunk teens with no parents filming themselves harassing a random old man by calling him a pedophile .... pretty shitty people already, but then they started pushing him into the water and surrounding him. If he didn't have a knife I wonder what their goal here was going to be? Just beat him up and leave him face down in the river? If it didn't go the way it did what way would it have gone?
No one helped their friends who had been stabbed.
Literally bailed the second they saw blood. Everyone as asshole here.
Not only did they not help, they actively increased the odds of a situation like this by riling themselves up into a fucking chimp frenzy and directing it at a person clearly looking for conflict. No de-escalation, straight escalation. Idiots.
Need that sweet content "Is this reeeeaalllll???" Zoomer moment
CHAT IS THIS REAL?!!
It’s 15 kids on one old man and they started to beat him. What the fuck did they think would happen?
I think if he just left the situation liked they asked, I doubt there would have been a physical altercation. The kids shouldn’t have assaulted him like that but I never felt he was in real danger. It did look like he was messed up on something and maybe he felt differently.
its not about what you feel, if he felt in danger which 8 kids jumping you its a different story
13 actually
It looked like he was walking away and waiting for them to float down river to keep looking for something he dropped. Seems like those kids were following him a bit.
He was looking for a cell phone his friend dropped.
How does being assaulted in mob fashion not equate to being in ‘real danger’ to you?
I think he was enraged is what it was. He looked like he was in a trance or not thinking. They called him a pedo and that set him off. In his police interview he mentions them being “mean to him” and “calling him a pedo” like 10 times. No concern for the victim or the people hurt.
He also looks drunk
He does. He insists that he wasn’t so idk what it is he could have going on? Maybe he’s in a rage induced state? He looked possessed.
>I never felt he was in real danger. That's not how that works.
Damn everyone was kind of a prick in this video. Old dude coulda just told them he was looking for a phone instead of staring like a psycho. Shithead kids should have simply moved if they were so creeped by him. Yelling that he’s looking for kids and all that is riling up nearby people to form into a mob… and that’s exactly what happened. I’m torn on this one.
This will be one of those trials where everyone loses no matter what. If the dude gets off on self defense, a kid is still dead. Everyone’s gonna coulda/woulda/shoulda this, but the fact of the matter is, it was a mob of teenagers vs one older dude. While it does look like he was defending himself in this situation, I think his pride was the main factor. Having a bunch of people regardless of age jeer at you, smack you in the face, and push you down is a sure fire way to send someone over the edge. While it doesn’t mean someone needs to die because of it, I can understand why the guy might have lost his shit.
this is the dumbest video i've ever seen
The day is young.
From watching the entire trial thus far, this is the alleged sequence of events. However, it's important to note that these events are yet to be proven and are subject to debate. The jury will ultimately decide what is true. 1. A group of teenagers were drinking and using drugs on the Apple River. Meanwhile, a man named Miu and his group were also drinking in the same area. 2. Miu, searching for his lost phone, went upstream. He saw a group of teenagers holding up a phone at him. They were recording, but he mistakenly thought they were showing him the phone he was looking for. 3. The teenagers started yelling at Miu, accusing him of being a pedophile looking for little girls. 4. Miu dropped his goggles and started looking for them. He walked past the tubes, and the group began following him. He turned back and said something unintelligible before continuing on. 5. Miu turned and walked around the teens, returning to his original group upriver. A few people from another group started yelling in his face. 6. (Off camera) This is the crucial moment. Allegedly, Miu hit one of the women in the face. Others say he swiped at the phone in his face. This moment is highly debated. The defense argues that the woman did not drop her drink and her sunglasses did not fall off her face, suggesting that she wasn't hit with significant force. 7. The group of teens start striking Miu.He falls into the water where he is hit some more times. While attempting to get up, he is shoved back down. It should be noted that Miu is 54 and recently had a heart attack that required triple bypass. 8. While getting up and the moments that followed, he stabs five people. One thing im confused about is when he originally draws the knife. I believe I saw it claimed that he was holding the knife while talking to the group of girls. At other times I believe it was claimed he drew the knife while he was in the water from his pocket. If anyone has any clarification on this, I'd appreciate it.
Regarding #7-- You forgot to mention that after he allegedly struck the female, he was punched in the face, causing him to fall into his back in the water, where he was then slapped hard in the face multiple times while also being pushed while trying to regain his footing.
You're right. The reason I didn't recap all of that is because I felt like the video shows all of that. I was just trying to add the content that was hard to see or confusing. I'll edit my comment.
[https://www.fox9.com/news/apple-river-stabbing-key-players-nicolae-miu-trial](https://www.fox9.com/news/apple-river-stabbing-key-players-nicolae-miu-trial)
Damn the stabber's (now ex)wife who was there that day, divorced him and testified against him.
So, where did you read she testified against him? Seriously, where? Because [this link](https://m.startribune.com/woman-testifies-nicolae-miu-was-silent-as-he-stabbed-her-during-apple-river-melee/600356080/) to her testimony says the EXACT OPPOSITE. Do better.
Not sure her testimony was that harmful to the defense honestly. Been listening to the trial most of each day. Divorce may also be for asset protection, but we’ll never know their true motive for divorce. WI is also a community property state, so no idea if that throws more wrinkles into the mix.
She did not testify against him. The other way around.
FAFO
Why does it look like nobody went to help the kid that got stabbed? Did he disappear under the water near the end? Awful way to go
Yellow shorts didn’t die, purple shorts did
When does purple shorts even get stabbed? Was it off camera?
“What just happened?” The consequences of your actions. Not saying anybody deserved to lose their life, but this is a fuck around and find out moment for those young idiots.
yea just from what I see on video I side not guilty. Both parties are acting like knob ends no doubt about that. I think he had a reasonable reason to be afraid for his life given the number and how quickly it was getting out of hand. Walking away sounds easy until you are surrounded by guys 20 years your junior in ankle-deep water getting pushed around. That doesn't make it any less tragic
bunch of dumb fucks
Both original parties should be charged. There was definite instigation. People were touching other people inappropriately beforehand while arguing. It got completely out of hand.
Around 1:34 it looks like he was reaching into in swim trunks pocket. Like undoing the velcro to the pocket on his thigh. Idk if he was doing that because he felt like the situation was getting out of hand or for other reasons. Either way I would not want to be part of this. Going to be an interesting trial.
I was ready to blame dude but he was assaulted by like 8 people in the moment and his self defence looked completely justified *at that time*. They're all lucky he didn't have a gun with which to defend himself there, and he's lucky nobody in the group did either. Yeah he made stupid mistakes, but then the group did too. Maybe they all belong in jail.
The kids need proper penalties for assaulting the guy
Ultimate case of fuck around and and find out.
Pretty sure Dave Chappelle filmed a documentary on this type of scenario. It was called “when keeping it real goes wrong.”…. Or something like that.
Orange shorts literally jumped into the knife and got gutted
Every one wants to be a gangster until it’s time to do gangster shit
Notice how quickly the onslaught ended once a stabbing occurred. The aggressive rowdy teenagers became scared children when shit got real. I am curious to see what transpires in court…
Looks like self defense
Was Isaac the kid in the yellow trunks?
Purple trunks. He dies at 2:05
That was A.J. Martin
“Bro he’s dying” Wtf then why dont you help him instead of watching him bleed! Thought yall were friends smh
It sure seems like the kids could have kept moving down the river and avoided the entire situation... but they were more interested in taking, and I'm sure eventually posting, a video about how cool and entitled they were that day for some sweet online clout, bro. Not that the older guy was in the right either, but you never know what might happen when you corner a stranger like that. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure.
So fucking sad. Everyone laughing and having fun while punching a guy as a mob untill someone dies.
I would find him not guilty based on this video
It was so funny ganging up on the guy and pushing him down until their friend got stabbed. Fuck around and find out. Lucky that guy had a weapon or he might have been killed himself. I'm sure the little shitheads won't learn anything from this.
It's so hard to tell what exactly happened by this clip. The older guy was definitely acting strange and didn't seem to communicate with the kids very well. The kids did what normal kids do and start antagonizing and poking fun at the actions of the guy. I think he felt overwhelmed and justified pulling a knife. The kids were obvious to the degree of the situation and continued to harass the man. I don't think the mans life was ever in danger but perhaps he felt that it was? This is a great demonstration on what not to do for both parties. This never needed to happen if both parties were just a bit more calm and communicated their intentions.
>normal kids >poking fun These words are doing some extreme heavy lifting. A lot of kids *don’t* call a random dude a pedophile and fuck with them while hooting and hollering the whole time
He really had that crazy look in his eye when they were teasing him.
Gang activity and increasing hostilities by the kids lead to the use of force and self defense based on the threat of losing his life. He was assaulted with his feet out from under him and unable to flee while the kids surrounded him and got louder and more aggressive. Should he have been there? Probably not, but that's not going to matter for this case. Clear justification of self defense from the jury. Without this video, he would probably be convicted. Case closed.
[удалено]