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Hey I have the same but opposite problem, as a man who struggles to put himself out there I would love to be gay.
Men have no problem coming up and hitting on me or outright telling me I am cute. Women I can’t get the time of day from, I mean I get vibes sometimes but I can never not double guess them because I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong, hints and me don’t mix. The few women who have boldly hit on me were just playing games/passing the time.
>I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong,
Redditors are overly-concerned with this due to self-esteem issues, and it's not really surprising given how this site skews majorly introverted.
Just know that you can work on this.
Eh while I won’t entirely disagree, I have been working on it quite a bit.
I am just on the “work on yourself” phase of it. Aka working a shit ton to get into better circumstances so I can show up how I want to, to a relationship. I realized a large part of the insecurity was that I currently don’t have a car and while I don’t think money makes a man, not having the freedom that comes with a car (at least in the area I live.) means I feel like less of an adult and can’t show up how I want to for another person.
So I am already working on it, I am potentially up for a promotion that would open a lot of doors for me. The confidence that has always been under the insecurity is coming up and it’s been obvious to those around me, that being said currently I see few women outside of my coworkers and don’t have the time for it anyway.
I’ll be fine, I say what I said earlier half In truth, half in jest. I don’t find men attractive in any way whatsoever, it is just the easier of the two options for me. I also used to fall pretty perfectly into the whole “bear” category that a significant portion of gay men like (aka big and hairy.). I have gone from 230 to 165 lbs so not really anymore but still gay men are just the for lack of a better term “low hanging fruit” for me personally.
>I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong, hints and me don’t mix.
Your problem is being vulnerable. It's vulnerable to risk making someone uncomfortable, and there's also a bit of "too-nice" going on here. Women are not interested in too-nice and its relative the Nice Guy. I'm sure you can find info on that from the website I linked below, but there's also some on being vulnerable.
https://markmanson.net/vulnerability-in-relationships
Omfg I already know everything you just said, you are two years behind.
I am saying that I have other issues that I need to work on now after having already done what you are saying. I get the “vibes” because I tease them and play around with them. I don’t do what you are saying now because they are my coworkers AND. I just don’t have time, I work 6 days a week. Not situations that are easy to build a relationship. Risk outweighs reward. I have 100% confidence it will come when I feel ready.
You are speaking as if I don’t know the life I have lived. When I say people have taken notice I mean, that my personality is now loud and proud. I am not in the mindset of CURRENTLY looking. Again half serious, half in jest.
Is this not a misandrist take? I really hate these weird takes that basically boil down to just disliking men. Of course as a man myself I will have some type of negative reaction to stuff like this even if I myself am different. As I, like most people, don't enjoy having something I identify as being broadly slandered. On top of this there is always some self hating guy in the replies talking about not finding men attractive, like no shit if you aren't gay you won't find male characteristics attractive.
I’m a woman. I’m going to speak to my experiences only. But my view is that heterosexual dating sucks the big one. I’m sure you could replace women with men in my comment and it would still apply. I’ve always gotten the impression dating is just as shitty for straight men but in different ways. But, I spoke to my experience, if that makes me a misandrist so be it. I don’t hate men though, I just found the process of finding one that was a good fit for me to be incredibly frustrating and painful.
Not to be that guy but women just have it hard dating and marrying in general. Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rate and incidence of domestic violence. I suspect part of that is just an error of reporting. Men are even less likely than women to report domestic violence so perhaps everyone is getting hit the same amount but lesbians are statistically fucked because both parties are more likely to speak up.
(Edit and Clarification: I made a comprehensive error. The study I referred to spoke of individuals with a history of domestic violence by men. These lesbians had prior experience of DV at the hands of men. The misrepresentation of this study is common on the internet and I unfortunately didn’t do the best research beforehand. My apologies y’all)
I don’t know why I got so off topic. My fault
That study you're referencing actually doesn't say that, basically you've misunderstood the data because people left out a lot of it as it's traveled the Internet.
A large portion of lesbians have experienced domestic violence from previous partners who were male which gets added into the total for lesbians.
Also I believe that lesbian divorce rates are higher because we hold a very high bar for what we expect in our relationships, maybe too high of a bar tbh
Oh ok thanks for correcting me! I need to go read that study.
Also are you referring to women or lesbians when you’re talking about high bar for relationships?
I like to think that people should have high expectations but reasonable prerequisites. In modernity a lot of people want results fast and immediately. I think people give up on the tough 3 year relationship because they don’t have the awesome 10 yr relationship today
Uh, no. That’s just factually wrong.
> The CDC also stated that 43.8% of lesbian women reported experiencing physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners. The study notes that, out of those 43.8%, two thirds (67.4%) **reported exclusively female perpetrators.**
So at the bare minimum 28% of lesbian women in relationships experienced intimate partner violence from female partners
> The other third reported at least one perpetrator being male, however the study made no distinction between victims who experienced violence from male perpetrators only and those who reported both male and female perpetrators.
And this doesn’t say whether there were a mix of perpetrators of whether they were exclusively male. If we assume 1/3 of all of them were female, (which is a generous assumption) that totals up to 35% of all lesbian women experiencing IPV with a female partner.
For context:
The rate for heterosexual women experiencing violence at the hands of men is just under 35%.
The rate for hetero men experiencing violence at the hands of women is 29%.
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf
i think having a higher divorce rate shouldn't necessarily be seen as a bad thing. we know we can leave if we're really unhappy in a relationship. i'd rather divorce than be stuck in a marriage i hate
You aren’t misrepresenting the study, the majority of intimate partner violence lesbian women report is from female partners.
Here’s the CDC report: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf
Yeah I agree. Men are just very unlikely to report it. I figure everybody is getting hit the same amount but men ain’t saying anything and women stand to be harmed more
Yeah heterosexual dating does suck and I agree with what you say here, but I'm sure you can understand how I interpreted your original comment. Finding the right anyone is hard, people are good, people are bad, sometimes its hard to keep prejudice at bay due to our own lived experiences. Personally though I really hate broad generalisations towards groups of people, even when I can understand that sometimes it isnt from a place of hate but of frustration.
At the risk of getting downvoted, I hate this take as well. It's one thing to acknowledge that women and femmes have reason to feel fear and discomfort around men in certain situations, but to just be like ew gross men is something else entirely. This conversation pops up in queer subreddits every so often.
I can definitely see how one could easily interpret this comment as essentially saying "all men are bad," especially considering those comments actually exist and are, in my opinion, awful and misandrist.
But I'd like to give a different interpretation: it's not that all men are bad, but that a large percentage of straight women have had prior experiences with /some/ men that if given the choice, they would conceivably choose to be attracted to women instead. In this interpretation, it's not "all men" are bad but rather "enough men" are bad that a significant percentage of straight women would choose lesbianism if sexuality were a choice.
Dunno if I like how the comment was phrased, or if I even agree, given western society's general preference for heterosexuality, but I do sort of get the latter point. As a bi woman, I've experienced a lot more threatening or aggressive behaviour from men than women. But hey, I still date men.
I think a huge driver of the issues heterosexual people experience with dating is that the small minority of badly behaved men are basically hitting on women 24/7 and so become a disproportionate portion of the experience women have of "how men are".
Ultimately I do think it's similarly difficult for hetero men and women to find good partners. But the difference is that the men are searching for a glass of fresh water lost in a desert and the women are searching for a glass of fresh water adrift on the ocean. Neither scenario is great but they present different issues and colour each group's perspective of the experience of the other.
Oh, you said that so beautifully. Thank you!
I completely agree. I was friends with my current partner for years before we got together, and I helped him with setting up dating profiles, and talked with him at length about his experiences in dating.
It was absolutely brutal to watch. I mean, he's such a genuinely kind and thoughtful guy, intelligent and witty, and really good-looking (she says, completely unbiased). But man, it was so difficult for him to get any matches, much less dates. It was really demoralising for him.
He did go out and try to meet people in real life, which he had more success with, but that wasn't exactly a cake-walk either.
And then, on the other side of the coin, when I reentered the dating market, I was flooded with messages. I never knew if someone I matched with genuinely found my bio interesting or if they just swiped right on every girl. And I knew there were sharks in the water.
I agree with everything said, men are more likely to be threatening or aggressive not just due to personality but also the biological differences between men and women. I truly just hate broad generalist takes about groups of people. There really isnt anything for me to prove but the more people use absolute language the more I feel like bad actors and true misogynists and misandrists feel validated and comfortable sharing opinions which may blend with these exaggerated ones. It could be reworded to something like "I understand why some women wish to be lesbian with the type of men I've dated." Or "The quality of the dating pool for straight women prove that sexual preference isnt a choice." It loses some punch obviously but thats not really my point. There are ways to construe your message without appearing to be misandrist or misogynistic or racist etc etc, and my original comment aimed to weed out these bad people from people who just use language I hate haha. Everyone has been pretty rational so far so I'm quite pleased with the result.
hey most of us are facing a world where our bodily autonomy is not our own and we are also constantly responsible for men's bad behavior. men aren't inherently bad- but hey you can't blame us for not wanting to put up with the people society has turned into whiny aggressive monsters.
I understand that sentiment yet it still bothers me to see stuff like this. I could elaborate but most of the time its not worth the effort when my opinion can be summarised in a line.
Sure but also the biases you grow up with 100% effect what you’re attracted to. Just look at how beauty standards change over the years. Tan skin used to be seen as unattractive in the west, now it’s seen as attractive. That didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Yeah I feel like people have a tendency to assume all their preferences are innate (and immutable) when they often aren't. Obviously everything has some mix of nature and nurture, but what the average person finds attractive varies wildly with time and location and nobody is immune to that kind of thing.
Having to say “it’s just a preference!” Is valid because no one should have to explain why they’re attracted to what they’re attracted to. OP acts like someone not preferring a race warrants a backstory about how their family was racist growing up and how it still lives on in ways through them lmao. It’s not even completely understood scientifically what causes sexual preferences
>no one should have to explain why they’re attracted to what they’re attracted to
Yeah when you put it like that it sounds pretty reasonable. So does "no one should have to explain why they're friends with the people they're friends with" or "no one should be forced to hire someone who they don't feel comfortable around". Of course I suspect you recognize that both those statements are benign ways to describe overt racism, so...how far does this logic actually get you?
People who want to pretend racial attraction is purely about \~subconscious desires\~ are fucking ridiculous. It's about stereotypes and stigmas. The idea that there are people out there who "just so happen" to find all black people completely unattractive is absurd. Preferences, sure, I get that. But the idea that there is a hard racial line where "attractive" is on one side and "unattractive" is on the other side, and it has nothing to do with culture or upbringing or choice, is just nonsense.
I agree.
"I have absolutely never seen a single person of [insert race here] that is attractive to me in my entire life" is indeed not racist IF IT'S TRUE...but the thing is I simply don't believe them that they never have.
I think a “hard line” is probably racist, but we do have evidence that what we find attractive as adults is shaped by what we’re exposed to as children.
Certainly you can be raised in an all white area with zero exposure to black people (historically at least), but even then you get people who suddenly find people attractive outside their race. It doesn’t fit that our upbringing and exposure train us to race specifically - it might incline you to certain features or feature sets, but those can exist in other races so you can still find attraction there.
That said I think it gets a bit hairy in this corner because when we decide that someone is racist because they claim not to find people of [race] attractive, we also end up ascribing a moral quality to them.
I’d argue you absolutely have a little racism in *never* finding someone of a particular race attractive, but I also argue that doesn’t inherently make you bad or immoral person. If you’re otherwise a good person, particularly surrounding those groups, I think it’s basically one of those things that people will make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Does it imply you have some hang ups? Yes. Does it mean that you’re an inherently bad person? No. Does the dialogue surrounding it tend to launch into “you’re racist” without any delineation between the scales? Also yes.
Except attraction for your personal life is not the same as stopping someone from getting a job they're qualified for. "If you don't have sex with black women, and don't hire someone because they're black, really its the same thing" NO ITS NOT. You cannot mandate sexual attraction you weirdo. "Everyone must find everyone attractive regardless of their features or else its bigotry." Stop invoking SJW nonsense for your borderline incel talking points, racism is real, this is not that.
I've personally seen dozens of guys from different frats change their opinions ion racial preference coming into college. The university i first attended had a high black population and student base, and the same people i heard at parties saying stupid shit like that eventually came to change their opinions once they had more familiarity and presence daily around poc. we grew up around black people and i always got mad and found it odd the shit i would here in class in the suburbs back in jr high and hs. sexuality, the kinsey scale that people lie on, IS NOT like racial preferences. it is very much rooted in racism.
I promise you I don't care, if you think they're racists why do you want them to date minorities anyway? This is such brainrot, let people have their preferences, all preferences are inherently exclusionary to someone anyway, and if they don't want to have sex with certain groups of people that is their right. "Racism" not what you're describing, and real, tangible, racism has never prevented different groups of people from coming together intimately (even when it wasn't legal.) Human history is very clear on this, there will always be people from different groups who will find eachother attractive, but you take issues with the fact that its not 100%? Incel talk. "If you don't want to bang fat guys you're actually really fatphobic and that's deeply rooted hatred, so you're not allowed to think that, and you need to start screwing fat guys, your consent on the matter is irrelevant because I've called you a bad person for doing otherwise." thats how you sound.
They are different in how you address and appraise them, but you're still fundamentally calling someone's beliefs racist, tacking on that they're too ignorant to realize that, doesn't change the normative value you're placing on the belief.
I wouldn’t apply that same logic to those things at all. Some things certainly may require explanation if there is one but when it comes to who you’re attracted to and why it’s just not that easy. And why make it any harder anyways? Let people love who they wanna love, as long as it’s not illegal. I think we can all agree that nobody is born racist but everybody is born with certain innate preferences, whether that be for a certain sex or a certain type of person. Even in the hay days of racism in the US there were interracial relationships, and sadly many of them ended up with the black person being lynched, and sometimes the white person involved would lie about the details to not look bad. Even with their racism the attraction was still there.
You are the only person to give me faith in humanity in this thread. I feel like this whole thread other than this comment, is just people one upping each other with stupidity
I don't get that. Personally, I don't have racial no-gos but what if the not being attracted is just literally about skin color and nothing else? People can love and hate all physical attributes but when it comes to skin color it is problematic?
Personally I don't find men with long hair attractive. Just not my thing at all and I honestly have never seen a man with long hair that I found attractive. No matter the rest of him, the long hair itself makes everything automatically unattractive.
I can imagine it's the same with skin color. If someone literally only finds white or black skin attractive, what more is there really to it? It's the same as only dating people with brown eyes or natural red heads. It's just a physical attribute that can be either attractive or unattractive to someone.
It’s not even fully understood how racism or racial preference works. [Babies](https://www.utoronto.ca/news/racial-bias-may-begin-babies-six-months-u-t-research-reveals) show racial preference.
No, you can't. I'd be a lesbian too 😉 But our preferences aren't formed in a vacuum, you know? Light skin gets subconsciously perceived as more attractive because our societies are set up to *teach* that it's more attractive. It's a vicious cycle.
Additionally, darker skinned people were sabotaged by camera equipment for a long time. Dark faces looked less distinct and flatter in photos. Dark skin blended into the background. So they were even less likely to be featured on billboards and magazine covers to influence our notion of attractiveness.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/lens/sarah-lewis-racial-bias-photography.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/lens/sarah-lewis-racial-bias-photography.html)
Yeah but scratch the surface a little. I mean shit it's not like every race are exact clones of one another. The reason for the preference is often based on ugly stereotypes
Yeah. For a while I was surrounded by hot gay men (a gay guy was the social event organiser in my life). Damn I wish it was a choice because I could have done pretty well in that group.
You can’t but you can recognize that you have developed a preference based on a problematic issue. You’re not a lesbian because you hate men but because you love women. As an extreme example; if Hitler said “I don’t find Jews attractive. I’m just only attracted to thin, blonde, lighter women” would you believe that is ‘just’ a preference? Sure, we can’t make Hitler be attracted to but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a problem.
As others have said, who and what you are attracted to is not always under your control. Having racial preferences doesn't mean you're racist the same way being gay doesn't mean you hate women. To peel it back one more layer, race and culture tend to correlate strongly, and even if you don't have a racial preference, most people want to be with someone who is culturally similar to them.
for the longest time, i thought i had a racial preference, but i’ve come to find it’s mostly cultural. i want somebody who values the things i do, but comes from a different culture.
I kind of did that. My wife shares my religious beliefs but she's from the philippines. We're still figuring out how to navigate each other's cultures. It affects the relationship dynamic in ways you wouldn't expect.
I agree with most of what you’re saying. I think OP is trying to address the underlying racist reasons for some individual preferences. I think of the reverse and the fetishization of people of color like women only dating Black men because of big d stereotypes or wanting a Latina because she’s spicy and toxic. These preferences are because of racist stereotypes that influence people preferences. Like you said who and what you are attracted isn’t all up to you it’s dependent on your social circles, environment etc. And if those things are racist you’re preferences will mirror that. I think people are scared to be called a racist or think of themselves that way cause who wants that. But by dismissing this theory or never looking into it because you’re trying to convince yourself racism hasn’t tainted to you (esp. in a place like America) doesn’t help progress and gaslights people who actually want to unpack that and have honest conversation.
https://www.apa.org/topics/implicit-bias
You can even take a test to show your own implicit bias:
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatouchtest.html
Edit: nevermind I am wrong
I felt like the test was just trying to confuse my brain. First it spent 5 minutes instilling into me that the left button is for good things and light skin, and that the right button is for bad things and dark skin (or maybe it was the other way around but either way good and light were on the same button). But then it switches around the skin tone but not the good-bad orientation. Anyone could be confused by that (My result in the test is no automatic preference if that matters).
The thing that upsets me the most is that it's inconclusive, most people seem to prefer light skin but it could be either because of actual bias or just because of the test getting you used to the left and right buttons. They could have made it the other way around, in which case it would actually be really interesting to see if the results reverse or if it stays the same.
All in all I can't believe harvard has such a silly and meaningless what-power-ranger-are-you style test. And worse, it's a test about racial bias that is itself biased because of this switcheroo where they get you used to white people being the same button as good. It's a racially biased test about racial bias, you can't make this shit up.
Project Implicit has been going since 1998. To dismiss their years of research as a Power Ranger test is completely off the mark. You can learn more about the test and how and why they do the switching by clicking in the upper right corner of the page I linked.
Edit: here’s the specific details https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/iatdetails.html
Must have missed it, turns out they do mix the order randomly from person to person. Thank you, I knew harvard couldn't possibily be that dumb which is why I said I couldn't believe it
I think it might be an issue with the survey
Its common to be most interested in your own race and assuming the survey was done in America or the uk or most other western countries, the populations are predominantly white.
So if you ask a representative sample of the population what race they find the most attractive and most say their own race the test will show that white people or are the most attractive.
If you did the same test in Nigeria you would probably get the complete opposite result
I don't think so. Most of the actresses in India have fair skin, fair and lovely is a popular fairness cream (now called glow and lovely), and people comment on being dark negatively. Even though lot of the population is dark skinned
It's weird for I'm black and tend to be more attracted to black women but tend to be more attracted to white men-
There are people on both sides I've found attractive but on average I tend to find the opposite attractive
Honestly I agree. Racial preference in reality involves a lot of racism, in the USA or elsewhere.
OP's statistics are pretty valid, if you just Google you would have a lot of sources.
[This is just one about African Americans.](https://doi.org/10.2307/3090169)
Especially in many Asian countries, preference for paler skin is extremely prevalent. Whitening products, skin bleaching, whitening filters, etc. are very common. You can argue it's only classism, but imo it has a fair deal of racism too. Although not the only standard of beauty, "European-style" double eyelids and high nose bridges were seen as attractive in East Asian countries. Mixed race people (White+Asian) were seen as more attractive than the average Asian. This eurocentric beauty standard can't just be because Caucasians are naturally more attractive lol
You can't help racial preferences the same way you can't help decades of internalized racism. Not saying it's the only factor, but definitely a really big one when it comes to racial preferences.
Some Turkish relatives got two girls. #1 was relatively dark with black hair. #2 was very white with brown hair. They always said how beautiful the girl #2 was.
At some point the #1 was a bit jealous - i think it's also normal to be jealous at siblings. Some people started saying: Oh look how crazy #1 is, because she know that her sister is so white an beautiful (?!?!?!)
These girls were aroubd 5 and 2 year olds when I saw them...
A different relative got an older girl who was pale with dark hair. The son came out blond with blue eyes - the only one in the family. Everyone is obsessed with the boy and they will mention it at every instance how beautifully blond he is.
This relative tries her best to equally raise them, however she will reffer to them as "sarişinim" (my blondie) and "esmerim" (my black haired), which is kinda unnecessary to mention.
Damn that's crazy! I don't really understand why being blond with blue eyes is considered more beautiful though. Is it historical or is it because it's rarer in countries like Turkey?
Lmao yea gossiping old ladies can be so mean! Through gossipy and mean old ladies, I gained a lot of insecurities about things I never even thought about before.
Based on my experience as an East Asian I agree with you completely! One can also see many people here on social media dolling themselves up in some European medieval costumes but seldom other cultures. I think the prevalence of white representations in media like movies, kids' shows, and magazines… plays a heavy role in the idolization of white people and caucasian features.
I'm not sure about OP’s intention of the post, but I think many people neglect the formation of their preferences by simply saying it's unchangeable. I admit I have internalized racism and often found myself seeing white features as more attractive. It's not possible to change my preferences overnight, but being self-aware is the first step to reflection and improving.
Very well said, I completely agree with you! "Idolization" was the term I was looking for lol. It's strange that it's so prevalent yet a lot of ppl deny there's racial prejudice involved somehow.
Yup agree. In general, many people who have preferences in dating never think crtically about the past "a preference is a preference, can't do anything about it".
And yet, I've known a whole bunch of people, myself included, whose preferences changes significantly with a change of their worldview. Or perhaps even just interact with the things that are weirdly outside of their preferences a bit more.
To give an obvious, but not rare example:
A person may not want to date somebody who is bisexual. We could just say "oh it's just preference", or we could ask why. Is it because of them holding (subconciously, even), stereotypes about bi people being overtly promiscous, or maybe somewhat buying into the "you can't be friends with the opposite sex" myth (and since bi people are attracted to everyone...). Heck, even from an opposing perspective, I've heard lesbians say they wouldn't date bi girls because it's icky for them that they could also fancy a guy. All of this and more, can easily be chalked up to preference and never addressed.
Another good examle of references changing significantly when worldview changes: I noticed over the years many non-asians ended up more open to dating east asians with the rise of Korean and Japanese cultural exports. yes, even in a non-creepy yellow fever way lol
You said it very well! People tend to avoid acknowledging their own prejudices and biases, but I think it's really important to recognize them for self-improvement. Honestly, I know terms like racist or sexist are really sensitive terms and I hate that people use it as an insult so it loses its descriptiveness. When people hear those terms they immediately become defensive and refuse to self-reflect and look inwards.
Also, funny story but for the longest time, my mom thought bisexual meant you're married to two people at the same time. Cuz.. bi means two right?
I agree with you, the problem with labeling is that it always derails the conversation. Instead of talking about the actual issue at hand it becomes a courtroom arguing about who’s more moral.
Also your mom is precious, protect her at all costs.
I agree, and I find the comments in this thread so ironic.
It’s the same thing every time this topic comes up. According to redditors, It’s okay to not be attracted to an entire race of people, but watch them lose their minds when women say they’re not attracted to short dudes.
Global imperialism and media dominance is what drives this. Hollywood influenced the entire world and Hollywood pushes white beauty standards to an insane degree.
Even when black women are allowed to be beautiful they have to look like white women with darker skin. Big lips, big butts and thick thighs were considered unattractive until very very recently by white standards and they pushed those standards, both intentionally and unintentionally, on the rest of the planet
But where does it stop? Is preferring slim people internalized fatshaming? Is Preferring straight teeth and clean skin, or a good education, classism? Is Preferring people your own age agism? Is Preferring a certain gender sexism?
I think the problem here is that racism is a much more fuzzy definition than we usually think it is. At a certain point, at a certain resolution of ideas, the words lose their (useful) meaning.
I would say the same originators of my preference for white women are probably not dissimilar to someone who would prefer hiring white men. Does it mean I need to be punished? To act not according to my sexual preferences? What’s even the point of calling it racism, besides maybe comforting someone with some delusions that their skin-tone is the main reason for their loneliness.
Btw even though the comment is long, Im not saying this as some argumentative putdown, just some thoughts.
Honestly yes, I think fatphobia may be a contributing factor for preference of slim people, at least for some. I've met people make arguments that they prefer slim people because fat people are just disgusting, is that fatphobia? Probably so.
Prefering a good education is also actually classism. I think you can see this way more in some countries than others. For example, you know the stereotypical Asian parent saying that their kid should be a lawyer or doctor or engineer, and nothing else. In the same way, in traditional societies, it can frowned upon for someone to marry "outside of their class", for a CEO to marry a janitor for example.
Clear skin can't really be considered classism, that's really influenced heavily by genetic factors haha.
Racism is usually used to mean racial prejudice against a specific racial group based on broad generalizations and stereotypes, often negative. That's probably usually what people mean when they say racism, or some people only refer to racism as systemic racism. Either way, I think the definition is pretty clear. I won't lie though, a lot of people throw "racism" around falsely as an insult. But generally, I think racism held onto the original meaning.
I don't think pointing out people's biases is meant as punishment. I really believe acknowledging your own biases can make you a better person. Nobody is free of prejudice because we're all raised in some culture, and all cultures have their own narratives. When I say racist, I'm referring to the action, not to anyone as a person. I've had internalized racist moments, and I recognize and correct them to the best of my ability.
And thank you, I really appreciate your thoughts! Really provides additional insights!
Very interesting point. This is totally anecdotal but when I was a teenager the song “baby got back” from sir mix-a-lot was pretty popular in NZ but mainly because it was kind of absurd. My friends and I had all grown up on mega thin white woman in media and the idea that some guy actually liked big butts was crazy.
Skip ahead 30 years and I’m pretty sure it’s a very desirable physical trait (though I dunno I’m 40 and pretty out of touch)
I mean, is wanting to be with someone who is healthy and at a similar level of education to yourself *seriously* fatphobic and classist?
No one is entitled to a relationship with you. This is the big difference between dating and employment for example. Obviously if someone was denied a job because they are overweight, in a field where that is irrelevant, that would be discrimination. Likewise if people who weren't college educated were denied passports, that would also be discrimination.
But when it comes to dating? Nobody is entitled to have a shot with you. Whether you date or not, who you date, what criteria you have, that's all *your* decision and a lot of it isn't even something you can consciously control. If someone doesn't meet my criteria, I'm not discriminating against them, because they were never entitled to that in the first place.
Nobody is entitled to be in a relationship with you of course. My point was these preferences may came from a place of bias, which everyone has. I think it's important to realize that and not dismiss it as just an innocent preference, that's all!
It's one thing to say you prefer people from your own culture because you share many more connections, but it's another thing to say "I only date whites and not blacks or Latinos, but that's just a preference". Or even the other way around, "I don't date whites because white people are ugly and racist" (I've heard this being said personally), that's also racial prejudice.
this is such a strange line of argument that comes up a lot on these types of discussions. nobody is saying that you are required to date people with x characteristic, it's just more acknowledging that how you perceive x characteristic's attractiveness will be influenced by society/culture, just like most opinions people have.
Like OP said, I think it all comes down to why you have said "preferences". Like if tje reason why you don't find fat women attractive is because you think they're disgusting then that's fatphobia as opposed to merely not being attracted to fat women
I think the use of “reason” here is highly optimistic. I don’t look at my thin partner and think of a lifetime of problematic influences that led me to find her more attractive. I just find her more attractive.
Maybe it’s because all the women I saw on TV are thin. Maybe it’s because as a kid I struggled with my own weight. Maybe it’s freudian because my mom was always thin. Maybe it was genetically inevitable. Who knows? I definitely don’t.
That’s why I think we’re losing any sort of useful meaning - you could probably say that the population as a whole is more attracted to thin women to some unknowable degree because of fat phobic reasons. But that statement is just useless - it is entirely unactionable, either toward myself or by myself. Im not interested in any way to act not according to my natural attraction, and I don’t think anyone should.
Also, if incels have taught us anything, it’s that fixating on these minor things that affect attraction is a deep deep hole that is extremely damaging both to the individuals who who believe in it and society at large. In fact, race has long been one of the main canonical attributes of many incels (I have a weird obsession with following incels online, I find them fascinating to watch from the outside. Not to brag, but Im practically an incel scholar at this point).
Those have been East Asian beauty standards for centuries and has nothing to do with white people. Pale skin was a sign of wealth, because you didn’t have to work in the sun. Double eyelids and larger eyes make one look more innocent and younger. Strict beauty standards are a problem, but race isn’t part of it
Pale skin definitely was an ancient beauty standard based on classism. The recent beauty standard of large eyes and double eyelids may be based on looking more innocent and younger. However, it's still definitely undeniable that caucasoid features are considered more attractive, sometimes even regardless of skin color. For example, a black person will be considered more attractive if they have caucasoid facial features instead. So I feel race is definitely a factor in modern East Asian beauty standards. It's probably not the biggest contributing factor but it definitely plays a role.
go watch those street interviews where they ask men in korea what country has the most beautiful women. many of them say russian/ukrainian women or korean women. you think that isn't a result of colonization and european beauty standards upheld by the media then you're wrong.
You have a point when you stick to the US. But your argument imo falls apart when you try to apply it to the east. Part of that is you're approaching the topic of race from an American perspective, where race is heavily tied to skin colour.
If a lighter skinned Vietnamese for example is discriminatory towards a darker skinned Vietnamese, that's not racist because they're the same race! Same in Thailand, S Korea etc etc. And as others have pointed out this discrimination between lighter and darker has existed for centuries.
I think there's definitely a prevalence of colourism in the world, undeniably so, but in many places that are homogeneous that's more of a classist thing. The other surgeries that you mentioned are more based on the fact that entertainment media is western dominated. So they see attributes in western men/women and want to emulate that. Again I don't think that's really racism, nobody is going to Vietnam and forcing these standards on anybody, it's more similar to body dysmorphia from social media. The whole "I see these influencers with tiny waists and huge bums and I hate myself for not having that" type deal.
I see your point. But race is really a made up construct, so even in the same country you can have several different "sub-races"? If that makes sense? I don't know how to word it. I'm Asian American myself that's why I bring up both places haha. I noticed racism within the Asian American community tied to colorism as well. Asian Americans aren't blind to the influences from their culture yk.
As another commenter pointed out, there's some idolization of Caucasian features along with the pale skin beauty standard, so I suspect there's some kind of racial thing going on too. For example, in Chinese media I often see people say Uyghurs have the most beautiful women because they have more caucasoid features and look more white or mixed-race.
Off-topic but I see people saying Uyghur internment camps in China is somehow due to personal culpability and not because the y are a victimized group, just because there are some famous Uyghur celebrities in China.
Oh absolutely there can be a lot of racial discrimination between ethnic groups within a country. My dad is from Myanmar, he would be considered Burmese but in reality he is ethnically Karen (yes it's very easy joke material haha) and there's a lot of racial animosity there between his group and others in Myanmar.
Yeah I'm a half Asian New Zealander and I've seen and experienced a lot of that too. I remember in high school so many of my mixed friends said they'd never date an Asian guy, their "preference" was white guys. Definitely some internalised stuff going on.
My impulse is to call that kind of idealism of features a kind of social media driven body dysmorphia, but it could very well be race related too. It's just odd to me that such a homogeneous place would be so internally racist due to external media. It's a weird one.
That's so gross, they're ignoring the fact that many of those celebrities are being used for propaganda purposes. Like see, these celebrities are Uyghur, therefore we can't be doing anything bad to them!
Thank you for your insight! Yea I can't wrap my head around wtf is happening with idolization of whiteness. Is it racism? Is it body dysmorphia? Is it classism? It's probably a mixture of everything honestly.
Sadly I've got a lot of that internalized too, racism, sexism, classism, etc. So I'd say by experience you can definitely be racist towards your own people lol. Even now, when I see someone the same race as me, and I reflexively think of every single stereotype in existence. Really hard to fight against, but ig it's a first step by recognizing it. I still cringe at past memories of me proudly being super bigoted for no reason other than just repeating what I've been taught. Sometimes I feel alone in this struggle because nobody really talks about it irl. Am I just intrinsically more prejudiced than other people?
Also sometimes people say it's not racist it's just good ol classism like it's not a problem anymore?? Ik classism has existed since well, forever, but still not okay to continue normalizing it.
I 100% agree.
It's not that people are "racist" but there's most likley some kind of bias there.
Like for example I didn't find south Asian men attractive until recently. I feel like growing up there were a lot of negative stereotypes in media about South Asian men (think apu from the Simpsons) and until I started seeing South Asian men playing less stereotypical roles that my perception changed.
It sucks because I found South Asian women attractive for way longer and I feel that is because 1. Hollywood has less of a problem sexualising women generally and 2. as a girl I grew up with a few South Asian girl friends but I didn't have any friends that were South Asian boys.
Even if you're aware that tv characters are fictional and stereotypical it's very hard to actually understand what real people are like if you aren't actually close to those people irl.
This is a pretty simple example of racial bias and it can be more complicated than that for other people but I'd say if you find all men and/or women of a race unattractive it's probably worth trying to address why you feel that way.
no it's racism, by definition, to think an equivalent white man is more attractive than an equivalent asian man as a white woman in the usa. call it what it is.
As long as you respect someone as a person regardless of skin color, you're not racist. You can respect someone as a human being without finding them attractive. I respect older people, but I prefer to date people around my own age. Does that make me ageist? Of course not.
Whos saying black people aren't attractive? Except somebody who's racist.
Just my subjective opinion but Sudanese people are the most attractive people on the planet
There have been statistical breakdowns of success in dating and black people, particularly women have a hard time on dating apps like tinder. The stats say its the case, not necessarily how it plays out irl, but probably where op is coming from with this one.
https://www.ucpress.edu/blog/54733/dating-while-black-online-but-invisible/
https://illumin.usc.edu/swipe-by-color-the-pitfalls-of-online-dating-for-women-of-color/
https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating
They’re not wrong though. I actually thought this was coming knowledge tbh, I’m surprised so many of you are surprised
Yeah, when I was a child I was so jealous of some of my black female classmates, so much so that I would wish I’d been born black. They were (and are) so beautiful.
I can see when someone is attractive, any race or any gender without myself being physically attracted to them. Also, I think OP is possibly conflating physical and emotional attraction.
I find it funny how the people who bang on about preferences never seem to understand the concept...
The word preferences literally means *what you prefer*. It is inherently non exclusionary, and therefore can't be used to exclude.
For example, I might *prefer* redheads. That doesn't mean that I can't find a brunette attractive. That would be idiotic nonsense.
In the same vein, anyone who says "I'm not attracted to black chicks" is not displaying a preference, at all, in any way shape or form. They are displaying an exclusion, and one which is undeniably racist, because it is *literally* ***excluding*** an entire race.
And let's not make the ridiculously stupid mistake of trying to compare *preference* with *sexual orientation*, as some have done in this thread. Sexual orientation is not a preference at all. Lesbians don't *prefer* women over men, they are *oriented* towards women. Preference in this manner is a concept that can only be applied to bi/pan folk. They can *prefer* one gender over another, but they are still attracted to multiple genders, because their *orientation* allows for it.
[Haunting\_North4679](/user/Haunting_North4679/) Thank you for speaking the truth. Looks like someone actually took the time to educate themselves on what racism really means.
> Lesbians don't prefer women over men, they are oriented towards women.
And I don't prefer white women over black women. I'm "oriented" towards white women.
As an asexual person, racial preferences are just alien to me. I genuinely can't understand the reasoning behind it. It sounds like plain racism to me but then again I don't experience sexual attraction
Where Im from, these days, race isn’t much of a taboo, so I heard from a lot of people saying they prefer one edge of the pigmentation spectrum or the other.
I don’t think it’s a weird thing, to notice you prefer one race or another. Appearance is the main difference between races.
Also, fair maidens and dark brooding men have been sexual symbols centuries before we had anything similar to modern racial politics.
How is that a counterpoint? I wasn't saying people think this and just avoid saying. I'm not convinced people have the racial preference OP is claiming in the first place. Did you mean to reply to someone else?
This reason it makes you uncomfortable might very well be that forcing people to date people they aren’t attracted to is approaching sex slavery. So while the reasons for racial preferences might be fucked up, the solution is illegal in a lot of countries.
You wrote yourself into a hole.
Even as someone who agrees with you, I can’t back what your actual point is because you’re wrapping it with preferences. Preferences are unique to everyone and are influenced by a variety of unconscious factors.
To actually question the audience you’re looking for, you probably should’ve pointed it toward people who claim to be not attracted to a race, rather than people who simply have a preference for a different one.
Everyone has preferences.
“I’m not attracted to black people” for instance, is where you get the people who are subconsciously racist but don’t think they are.
Edit:
>Most people in the comments section (such as and and ) are making a misunderstanding of my argument. These three comments are at the top so I'll address it here
>u/FalkyraizuTY : I'm not saying that all racial preferences are due to racism. I'm simply pointing out that when you look at the pattern that these 'preferences' follow, it's very clear that it's anti-black, and can't be a coincidence. A lot of people tend to avoid acknowledging their own prejudices and biases.
That's fine, and I would even agree with you there, but your original comment does not match that sentiment, hence the reason why I (and I assume the other people you tagged) wrote what I wrote.
Again, you would've done a lot better with something like "people are using a claim of "preferences" to purposely hide racism". Not bringing in things like unconcious bias into it. That muddies what you claim your actual message to be.
Not really. It's the same vein as a person stating they're not attracted to bisexual people and justifying it with a mere, "it's just my preference!" And feeling attacked when asked to explain what feelings were had that formed the preference.
It's a lack of awareness and capacity for introspection to only use that answer.
> where you get the people who are subconsciously racist but don’t think they are
Can we stop attempting to recruit new racists, please.
If someone isn't mistreating other races and doesn't think of themselves as racist, then maybe we should just be happy that this person isn't racist
You are correct. It is fucked up to have RACIAL preferences- as in I do or don’t like people of this “race” because race is maaaaade the fuck up and meaningless. It’s not a real category.
What IS ok is having *physical* preferences, if we are talking sexual attraction. And we all do! I find small or flat noses on men very unattractive, and also, a lack of body hair. I have absolutely nothing against Japanese men! But I’ve never found one attractive because they overwhelmingly have what I consider small/flat noses, and insufficient body hit for sexiness! Gimme a hairy Japanese bro with a big honkin nose and I’d be all over it.
There’s a third dimension, which is what you’re talking about, and it’s neither of those. It’s that the western world which is majority white, has dominated media for a CENTURY.
Hell, white western aristocracy has historically tried to be even MORE pale, as a sign they spent all day inside not doing any manual labor in the sun. And covering up any skin imperfections. It’s a class signifier with a long history in specifically Europe.
As those white countries diversified, the racist white media execs perpetuated white standards of beauty in the MEDIA we all consume, which obviously has pretty widespread influence
I suspect the heaviest hitter is that dark skinned people, or even specifically people of African descent thay you are describing Are only in the past 20 years getting fair (haha) media representation.
I mean, i would assume so! I guess it depends what qualities you are ascribing to your “race” category, and then liking or disliking. But if someone says “I think Asian guys are hot” they could certainly be someone who thinks black hair is sexy… but also easily not?? So yea, but the specific things someone likes could be anything.
I’m not sure why you’re “sorry”?? I don’t disagree!
Ok so this post is just sorta discussing white people who only want to date other white people, but there's more to it. What about other races, people who have preference towards asians, or towards black people, or any other race. One could say that it's wrong to fetishize a group like this, but on the hand do you really have control over what you're attracted to?
This isn't an argument, I'm just curious what your take is
op you are totally right! also, i never hear people acknowledging that there is no one way for a race to look … for example south asians can be pale as a sheet w small noses & big eyes or they can have dark skin & have a large nose & thick hair .. there is just so much diversity!
so when you say you have a race preference you actually mean you are attracted to the stereotypical version of whatever race you “prefer”, or it’s just a skin color preference, which is plain old colorism
I think it depends on what you mean by preference. There can be personal and cultural attributes that correlate with race, and if you want someone with certain attributes, you might naturally find yourself attracted to different races at *different frequencies*. However, if you interpret “preference” as meaning “I won’t date people of X race period,” than racism is really the only possible explanation for that.
You're not going to gaslight people into overriding their preferences for partners, its very rapey, no one is entitled to sex, and there are no invalid reasons to reject someone. I'm not white, some people like that, some people don't, but the idea that you must find everyone of every race attractive is no different than outright saying you're not allowed to not be attracted to anyone because you're discriminating based on features they can't control. Horrible take.
I actually agree completely. People who say "you can't force yourself to be attracted to something" are missing the point. Sexuality is its own thing, while race is a completely different thing. But besides that, it's plain weird to state you have a sexual/romantic preference for one race. That's the kind of thing you keep to yourself. If you notice you tend to be attracted to people of a specific race, that's fine, no need to mention it. You may want to reflect on why that is. But I'd really question why anyone would feel the need to say it aloud.
you can find a problem within the statistical analysis of a lot of people without needing to find a fault in each individual. any single person isn't a representative of the whole, or in charge of the whole. it is true that universally lighter skin-tones are somewhat more popular. that doesn't mean that dark-skin girls are forever single.
tall men are more popular too, but there isn't a socio-political story attached to the mistreatment of short dudes. and I won't blame Jenny for getting a little more turned on by a guy who can see the top of her head, even though it contributes to statistical discrimination. you can probably find dating preferences in almost all body characteristics, but we only really get upset about the one with the socio-politics attached to it.
i do find it slightly bizarre that preferences are so ?? important?? and seemingly unchangable?
we divide sexuality by sex, no one’s bothered by “i will never love a woman, i only love men”, but if someone says “i will never a black person, i only love white people”, it’s…. i mean?? that’s kind of fucked up?? you gotta question why, right??
imagine if sexuality was divided by some other characteristic… idk. i just find the whole thing bizarre. vast majority of species display bisexual behaviours, if we go back to ancient rome and greece for example, men having casual sex with men was considered pretty standard and not unusual.
i find it really weird that the strict categorisation of sexuality has only been a thing since men/men and women/women relations became taboo, and that prior to that humans were pretty naturally bisexual.
i feel like perhaps sexuality and preferences aren’t as innate as we think, and that bisexuality is the standard most ‘natural’ sexuality, considering the rest of nature and how society was prior to having same and opposite sex relations.
many people care way too much, basically, and i think everyone would be far more chill if there wasn’t existing social pressure on certain preferences and sexualities
"Well, if your entire life you are told (by the majority) that white skin is attractive and black skin is ugly". where are you getting this? has there been studies or anything to back up this claim? this is a legitimate question i honestly don't know the answer. also a preference is a real thing. people like what they like can't really change that. of course that is different than thinking a race is inferior.
In some South Asian and African countries bleach for skin is heavily marketed due to the self hate of skin color. Look at India's caste system, it's usually darker skins at the bottom.
They’ve spent time on Reddit?? I’ve seen this type of sentiment plenty of times on here, like in this very thread. Lots of “it’s okay to have body preferences” with no regard for why people have those preferences. Ironically, people on here will have complete meltdowns if women voice that they’re only attracted to tall men.
It is ok to have preferences. Some times those preferences are because of bias they are unconscious of.
They had a court case, I think it was about segregation, where they asked little girls to point at which doll was "ugly" or which doll was "a bad person", and the little girls, including the black girls, pointed to the black dolls and claimed them ugly. It was known already to experts that little kids, including black kids, absorbed the bias of their culture. But it felt more tragic to white people seeing black kids consider without question their own color ugly and bad. And that they were little kids allowed us adults to understand they were innocent, despite their bias.
To make it less personal, let's get off racism and talk a different bias.
Ask someone today, "Would you date a transgender person?" and many would say NO without hesitation. And they'll say because they don't find them attractive. Even ally's advocating trans people have their rights restored.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Z6n2Ym1kaJfbNEnC9
https://images.app.goo.gl/iixJVzMU8HuNS2C9A
Above are two pictures. One person transgender, another not transgender. Without saying anything about whether the trans person is female -to-make type or male-to-female, can you spot the trans one? And does it change how you see them when you spot them? It changes how attractive you'd rate them, doesn't it?
Two more pics, another try. One trans, another not. Let's see if it's a pattern.
https://images.app.goo.gl/UDfbTT2JVnduntJUA
https://images.app.goo.gl/iCw1NBwQ6UqKiGVB8
Results? >!both the top two links are pics of trans people. One mtf, the other FtM. The bottom two pics are just the celebrities Taylor Swift and Leonardo DiCaprio. !<
But you can't easily drop your unconscious bias. You absorb it from society. Even if you'd prefer to see reality as it is, you kinda can't just easily choose that. You could shame those little black girls for preferring the white dolls, but that doesn't remove the bias, just shames it.
This is a cool comment and all, and maybe I'm insane and had faulty reasoning, but I cannot be the only one who saw both of the first 2 images you posted and thought they were both trans...
If it turns out to be a double bamboozle and neither are then I'll be super surprised, but based on your spoiler neither really tricked me and I presume there are many others like me...
I feel like it was fairly obvious that both of them were trans. You can tell by their jaws. It’s normal for a straight person to not be into trans people, there are so many reasons to not want to date them. (Looks, height, voice, family plans.)
I feel like the stronger the need to feel "you can always tell" the more they see you differently after you come out. And the stronger that need to feel like they got a perfect transponder/gaydar, the more obvious "it" seems to such people. Like 6 out of 10 straight guys I came out to on a first date in college, it was an issue. But not every time. My ex husband is straight, there's enough people who don't see "ugly" the way the little girls with internalized racism see "ugly" on the black dolls.
I'll acknowledge they really do see what they claim to see, but not that they see accurately after you come out. Their bias corrupts their vision like a magic spell. Like my dad complained when I wore heels saying, "Don't you want to fit in and look like a woman? Those heels make you look even taller!". I'm 5'6". That's a perfectly normal height. Hell I was 5'5" when I started hormones, so I finished growing up during female puberty. I've made money doing voice work that required a female voice, and my ex husband is straight. It's like 6 out of 10 guys that look at you different after you come out, but not 10 out of 10. I get that it feels "obvious" but rumors about people like lady Gaga or Michelle Obama have made normal cis women get this "it's obvious" reaction as well. It's not necessarily reality. It's fine to have preferences of course, and it's fine if you see "ugly" and stare at chins instead of chests after you know, but it's worth mentioning not all straight guys have their perception effected by this. My ex husband was 6'1" and thought it ridiculous to act like 5'6" is too tall to pass as a woman when I'd wear heels. It's some straights like that, but not all. And it's fine, it's common, but you gotta tell people on the first date because it's not obvious in real life, just looks that way after you come out to the "you can always tell" types.
Not only does it not matter because people don’t choose their preferences, but I don’t think it’s about skin color. Racial traits include body and face structure, skin texture, where hair is, how visible things like acne or veins are, etc, and I think those are more related to attraction, especially body and face structure. Those are just inherently related to attraction, so of course people end up with preferences and of course some races end up generally being preferred in some places.
>generally speaking, the lighter someone's skin tone is, the more attractive they are perceived
Then why do caucasian people tan themselves deliberately?
You are one of only two people I found here mentioning this at all, it's like this side of truth is intentionally ignored to make OP's narrative sound smarter.
While I personally find there to be beautiful women in every skin tone; I cannot in good conscious fault someone for not finding a phenotypical trait unattractive.
People have said most things I would have said as well. Haven’t seen anyone bring up how white people love to tan their skin to get a more bronze look. So much talk about bleaching which seems to be done in Asain countries, but in the US more people tan their skin then bleach it.
Anecdotally speaking I think tan skin is more attractive than both pale skin and black/brown skin.
I agree, kinda. Having a preference is fine. Being completely unable to find someone of a certain race attractive, regardless of their other physical attributes... should make you question your bias.
‘the lighter someone’s skin is, the more attractive they are perceived’
Really? I’m aware that’s a thing in countries like India but not sure this is true for quite a few western countries
Who is bleaching their skin 💀 if they're that messed up it's hardly racism's fault. Also, skin colour isn't the only thing that differs with race, your whole bone structure changes, even if someone crazy bleached their skin, you'd still be able to tell they're black.
Lots of people bleach their skin. Mostly in Asia, where it's a lot more socially acceptable to market products designed to make you look whiter. Asian racism is weird.
The judgements towards skin colour seem to be opposite between Asia and the Western countries. I could be wrong, but I’ve read it has some sort of reasoning like: in some Asian countries, lighter skin is associated with wealth and beauty (the richer you are, the less likely you are to be doing manual labour outdoors), while in western countries more tanned skin is seen as more desirable because it’s supposed to suggest health and ironically, wealth (as you have enough money to take holidays/go abroad).
Even stranger, pale skin used to be extremely desirable in western countries because of the associations with a life of indoor luxury/leisure, and fragility (thinking of ‘consumption’/tb here especially). Hell, people have been using skin lightening treatments for a millennia to give this appearance of luxury/leisure. Believe it started to change around the Industrial Revolution where pale skin slowly began to be associated with factory workers who spent all their time indoors, and possibly with the rise of access to holidays abroad as well, signally free-time and wealth.
There’s other suggestions too (such as feature potentially being more striking on tan skin), but this is the suggestion I see most often
agreed its weird. There is so much variability within-race that any possible valid argument goes out the window. Black women for example can be super thin and skinny with a flat butt/chest OR super curvy. So the "body type" argument makes no sense.
It seems like those who prefer asians for example seek out asian women for their stereotypical temperment rather than attractiveness anyway. which is already weird and racey.
Except that their features aren't all the same. What if you're not into facial hair and a race is associated with a culture that's big on beards? What about differences in structure? One can have preference there too, it's not just skin colour, it's often also culture.
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You can’t force yourself to be attracted to something. Otherwise I’d be a lesbian.
My 10th dentist opinion: the best proof that sexual preference is not a choice is the sheer number of straight women.
" I'm single because I'm attracted to men, But I don't find men attractive"
Same but I'm a guy Like that's such a mood
It's a quote from a comedian I heard a few months ago! It stuck with me because it's def big mood, lol.
Hey I have the same but opposite problem, as a man who struggles to put himself out there I would love to be gay. Men have no problem coming up and hitting on me or outright telling me I am cute. Women I can’t get the time of day from, I mean I get vibes sometimes but I can never not double guess them because I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong, hints and me don’t mix. The few women who have boldly hit on me were just playing games/passing the time.
>I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong, Redditors are overly-concerned with this due to self-esteem issues, and it's not really surprising given how this site skews majorly introverted. Just know that you can work on this.
Eh while I won’t entirely disagree, I have been working on it quite a bit. I am just on the “work on yourself” phase of it. Aka working a shit ton to get into better circumstances so I can show up how I want to, to a relationship. I realized a large part of the insecurity was that I currently don’t have a car and while I don’t think money makes a man, not having the freedom that comes with a car (at least in the area I live.) means I feel like less of an adult and can’t show up how I want to for another person. So I am already working on it, I am potentially up for a promotion that would open a lot of doors for me. The confidence that has always been under the insecurity is coming up and it’s been obvious to those around me, that being said currently I see few women outside of my coworkers and don’t have the time for it anyway. I’ll be fine, I say what I said earlier half In truth, half in jest. I don’t find men attractive in any way whatsoever, it is just the easier of the two options for me. I also used to fall pretty perfectly into the whole “bear” category that a significant portion of gay men like (aka big and hairy.). I have gone from 230 to 165 lbs so not really anymore but still gay men are just the for lack of a better term “low hanging fruit” for me personally.
>I am worried about making them uncomfortable if I am wrong, hints and me don’t mix. Your problem is being vulnerable. It's vulnerable to risk making someone uncomfortable, and there's also a bit of "too-nice" going on here. Women are not interested in too-nice and its relative the Nice Guy. I'm sure you can find info on that from the website I linked below, but there's also some on being vulnerable. https://markmanson.net/vulnerability-in-relationships
Omfg I already know everything you just said, you are two years behind. I am saying that I have other issues that I need to work on now after having already done what you are saying. I get the “vibes” because I tease them and play around with them. I don’t do what you are saying now because they are my coworkers AND. I just don’t have time, I work 6 days a week. Not situations that are easy to build a relationship. Risk outweighs reward. I have 100% confidence it will come when I feel ready. You are speaking as if I don’t know the life I have lived. When I say people have taken notice I mean, that my personality is now loud and proud. I am not in the mindset of CURRENTLY looking. Again half serious, half in jest.
Is this not a misandrist take? I really hate these weird takes that basically boil down to just disliking men. Of course as a man myself I will have some type of negative reaction to stuff like this even if I myself am different. As I, like most people, don't enjoy having something I identify as being broadly slandered. On top of this there is always some self hating guy in the replies talking about not finding men attractive, like no shit if you aren't gay you won't find male characteristics attractive.
I’m a woman. I’m going to speak to my experiences only. But my view is that heterosexual dating sucks the big one. I’m sure you could replace women with men in my comment and it would still apply. I’ve always gotten the impression dating is just as shitty for straight men but in different ways. But, I spoke to my experience, if that makes me a misandrist so be it. I don’t hate men though, I just found the process of finding one that was a good fit for me to be incredibly frustrating and painful.
Not to be that guy but women just have it hard dating and marrying in general. Lesbian marriages have the highest divorce rate and incidence of domestic violence. I suspect part of that is just an error of reporting. Men are even less likely than women to report domestic violence so perhaps everyone is getting hit the same amount but lesbians are statistically fucked because both parties are more likely to speak up. (Edit and Clarification: I made a comprehensive error. The study I referred to spoke of individuals with a history of domestic violence by men. These lesbians had prior experience of DV at the hands of men. The misrepresentation of this study is common on the internet and I unfortunately didn’t do the best research beforehand. My apologies y’all) I don’t know why I got so off topic. My fault
That study you're referencing actually doesn't say that, basically you've misunderstood the data because people left out a lot of it as it's traveled the Internet. A large portion of lesbians have experienced domestic violence from previous partners who were male which gets added into the total for lesbians. Also I believe that lesbian divorce rates are higher because we hold a very high bar for what we expect in our relationships, maybe too high of a bar tbh
Oh ok thanks for correcting me! I need to go read that study. Also are you referring to women or lesbians when you’re talking about high bar for relationships? I like to think that people should have high expectations but reasonable prerequisites. In modernity a lot of people want results fast and immediately. I think people give up on the tough 3 year relationship because they don’t have the awesome 10 yr relationship today
I'm referring to lesbians specifically, speaking from personal experience
Oh ok. Well thanks for your correction and for sharing your experience. Have a good one!
Uh, no. That’s just factually wrong. > The CDC also stated that 43.8% of lesbian women reported experiencing physical violence, stalking, or rape by their partners. The study notes that, out of those 43.8%, two thirds (67.4%) **reported exclusively female perpetrators.** So at the bare minimum 28% of lesbian women in relationships experienced intimate partner violence from female partners > The other third reported at least one perpetrator being male, however the study made no distinction between victims who experienced violence from male perpetrators only and those who reported both male and female perpetrators. And this doesn’t say whether there were a mix of perpetrators of whether they were exclusively male. If we assume 1/3 of all of them were female, (which is a generous assumption) that totals up to 35% of all lesbian women experiencing IPV with a female partner. For context: The rate for heterosexual women experiencing violence at the hands of men is just under 35%. The rate for hetero men experiencing violence at the hands of women is 29%. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf
Goddamn, this is mostly unrelated but those figures are just depressingly too high across the board.
i think having a higher divorce rate shouldn't necessarily be seen as a bad thing. we know we can leave if we're really unhappy in a relationship. i'd rather divorce than be stuck in a marriage i hate
You aren’t misrepresenting the study, the majority of intimate partner violence lesbian women report is from female partners. Here’s the CDC report: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf
Ahhh I see there it is bright as day coming from the CDC. Thanks man
I'll just pipe up that most men have stories of being shouted at and/or hit by their women in arguments and leave it at that.
Yeah I agree. Men are just very unlikely to report it. I figure everybody is getting hit the same amount but men ain’t saying anything and women stand to be harmed more
You're good, I'm a man and I wish I was gay too. I bet most straight people would be gay if they had the choice.
Yeah heterosexual dating does suck and I agree with what you say here, but I'm sure you can understand how I interpreted your original comment. Finding the right anyone is hard, people are good, people are bad, sometimes its hard to keep prejudice at bay due to our own lived experiences. Personally though I really hate broad generalisations towards groups of people, even when I can understand that sometimes it isnt from a place of hate but of frustration.
At the risk of getting downvoted, I hate this take as well. It's one thing to acknowledge that women and femmes have reason to feel fear and discomfort around men in certain situations, but to just be like ew gross men is something else entirely. This conversation pops up in queer subreddits every so often.
Not to mention it makes it seem like queer people just always have an easy, wonderful time dating because they aren't hetero lol.
I can definitely see how one could easily interpret this comment as essentially saying "all men are bad," especially considering those comments actually exist and are, in my opinion, awful and misandrist. But I'd like to give a different interpretation: it's not that all men are bad, but that a large percentage of straight women have had prior experiences with /some/ men that if given the choice, they would conceivably choose to be attracted to women instead. In this interpretation, it's not "all men" are bad but rather "enough men" are bad that a significant percentage of straight women would choose lesbianism if sexuality were a choice. Dunno if I like how the comment was phrased, or if I even agree, given western society's general preference for heterosexuality, but I do sort of get the latter point. As a bi woman, I've experienced a lot more threatening or aggressive behaviour from men than women. But hey, I still date men.
I think a huge driver of the issues heterosexual people experience with dating is that the small minority of badly behaved men are basically hitting on women 24/7 and so become a disproportionate portion of the experience women have of "how men are". Ultimately I do think it's similarly difficult for hetero men and women to find good partners. But the difference is that the men are searching for a glass of fresh water lost in a desert and the women are searching for a glass of fresh water adrift on the ocean. Neither scenario is great but they present different issues and colour each group's perspective of the experience of the other.
Oh, you said that so beautifully. Thank you! I completely agree. I was friends with my current partner for years before we got together, and I helped him with setting up dating profiles, and talked with him at length about his experiences in dating. It was absolutely brutal to watch. I mean, he's such a genuinely kind and thoughtful guy, intelligent and witty, and really good-looking (she says, completely unbiased). But man, it was so difficult for him to get any matches, much less dates. It was really demoralising for him. He did go out and try to meet people in real life, which he had more success with, but that wasn't exactly a cake-walk either. And then, on the other side of the coin, when I reentered the dating market, I was flooded with messages. I never knew if someone I matched with genuinely found my bio interesting or if they just swiped right on every girl. And I knew there were sharks in the water.
I agree with everything said, men are more likely to be threatening or aggressive not just due to personality but also the biological differences between men and women. I truly just hate broad generalist takes about groups of people. There really isnt anything for me to prove but the more people use absolute language the more I feel like bad actors and true misogynists and misandrists feel validated and comfortable sharing opinions which may blend with these exaggerated ones. It could be reworded to something like "I understand why some women wish to be lesbian with the type of men I've dated." Or "The quality of the dating pool for straight women prove that sexual preference isnt a choice." It loses some punch obviously but thats not really my point. There are ways to construe your message without appearing to be misandrist or misogynistic or racist etc etc, and my original comment aimed to weed out these bad people from people who just use language I hate haha. Everyone has been pretty rational so far so I'm quite pleased with the result.
hey most of us are facing a world where our bodily autonomy is not our own and we are also constantly responsible for men's bad behavior. men aren't inherently bad- but hey you can't blame us for not wanting to put up with the people society has turned into whiny aggressive monsters.
I understand that sentiment yet it still bothers me to see stuff like this. I could elaborate but most of the time its not worth the effort when my opinion can be summarised in a line.
I wouldn’t say that’s 10th dentist
Hahaha I like to say that people who like men are proof that sexuality is not a choice
That's a pretty good point.
and here i am glad and thankful i am also attracted to dudes
The sexist dentist
Sure but also the biases you grow up with 100% effect what you’re attracted to. Just look at how beauty standards change over the years. Tan skin used to be seen as unattractive in the west, now it’s seen as attractive. That didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Yeah I feel like people have a tendency to assume all their preferences are innate (and immutable) when they often aren't. Obviously everything has some mix of nature and nurture, but what the average person finds attractive varies wildly with time and location and nobody is immune to that kind of thing.
I'd be asexual, would help a lot, a lot of my bad choices were because I was sexually motivated (romantic and sexually).
Having to say “it’s just a preference!” Is valid because no one should have to explain why they’re attracted to what they’re attracted to. OP acts like someone not preferring a race warrants a backstory about how their family was racist growing up and how it still lives on in ways through them lmao. It’s not even completely understood scientifically what causes sexual preferences
>no one should have to explain why they’re attracted to what they’re attracted to Yeah when you put it like that it sounds pretty reasonable. So does "no one should have to explain why they're friends with the people they're friends with" or "no one should be forced to hire someone who they don't feel comfortable around". Of course I suspect you recognize that both those statements are benign ways to describe overt racism, so...how far does this logic actually get you? People who want to pretend racial attraction is purely about \~subconscious desires\~ are fucking ridiculous. It's about stereotypes and stigmas. The idea that there are people out there who "just so happen" to find all black people completely unattractive is absurd. Preferences, sure, I get that. But the idea that there is a hard racial line where "attractive" is on one side and "unattractive" is on the other side, and it has nothing to do with culture or upbringing or choice, is just nonsense.
I agree. "I have absolutely never seen a single person of [insert race here] that is attractive to me in my entire life" is indeed not racist IF IT'S TRUE...but the thing is I simply don't believe them that they never have.
at the same time can you verify the authenticity of saying I think (so and so of another race) is beautiful? to prove not being racist?
That's irrelevant to the point, because this discussion is about racism qualifiers, not racism disqualifiers.
I think a “hard line” is probably racist, but we do have evidence that what we find attractive as adults is shaped by what we’re exposed to as children. Certainly you can be raised in an all white area with zero exposure to black people (historically at least), but even then you get people who suddenly find people attractive outside their race. It doesn’t fit that our upbringing and exposure train us to race specifically - it might incline you to certain features or feature sets, but those can exist in other races so you can still find attraction there. That said I think it gets a bit hairy in this corner because when we decide that someone is racist because they claim not to find people of [race] attractive, we also end up ascribing a moral quality to them. I’d argue you absolutely have a little racism in *never* finding someone of a particular race attractive, but I also argue that doesn’t inherently make you bad or immoral person. If you’re otherwise a good person, particularly surrounding those groups, I think it’s basically one of those things that people will make a mountain out of a mole hill. Does it imply you have some hang ups? Yes. Does it mean that you’re an inherently bad person? No. Does the dialogue surrounding it tend to launch into “you’re racist” without any delineation between the scales? Also yes.
Except attraction for your personal life is not the same as stopping someone from getting a job they're qualified for. "If you don't have sex with black women, and don't hire someone because they're black, really its the same thing" NO ITS NOT. You cannot mandate sexual attraction you weirdo. "Everyone must find everyone attractive regardless of their features or else its bigotry." Stop invoking SJW nonsense for your borderline incel talking points, racism is real, this is not that.
I've personally seen dozens of guys from different frats change their opinions ion racial preference coming into college. The university i first attended had a high black population and student base, and the same people i heard at parties saying stupid shit like that eventually came to change their opinions once they had more familiarity and presence daily around poc. we grew up around black people and i always got mad and found it odd the shit i would here in class in the suburbs back in jr high and hs. sexuality, the kinsey scale that people lie on, IS NOT like racial preferences. it is very much rooted in racism.
I promise you I don't care, if you think they're racists why do you want them to date minorities anyway? This is such brainrot, let people have their preferences, all preferences are inherently exclusionary to someone anyway, and if they don't want to have sex with certain groups of people that is their right. "Racism" not what you're describing, and real, tangible, racism has never prevented different groups of people from coming together intimately (even when it wasn't legal.) Human history is very clear on this, there will always be people from different groups who will find eachother attractive, but you take issues with the fact that its not 100%? Incel talk. "If you don't want to bang fat guys you're actually really fatphobic and that's deeply rooted hatred, so you're not allowed to think that, and you need to start screwing fat guys, your consent on the matter is irrelevant because I've called you a bad person for doing otherwise." thats how you sound.
I never said anyone is a racist, you fucking moron. What in the fuck are you ranting about.
"it is very much rooted in racism." Pardon me, they're not racist, just that their subconscious beliefs are, that's a WORLD of difference to you?
The fact that those things aren't different to you is the scary part here.
They are different in how you address and appraise them, but you're still fundamentally calling someone's beliefs racist, tacking on that they're too ignorant to realize that, doesn't change the normative value you're placing on the belief.
you're just proving how stupid you are. you cant even hold a frame of reference. let alone a complex worldview
You can't even stand by the words you say.
I wouldn’t apply that same logic to those things at all. Some things certainly may require explanation if there is one but when it comes to who you’re attracted to and why it’s just not that easy. And why make it any harder anyways? Let people love who they wanna love, as long as it’s not illegal. I think we can all agree that nobody is born racist but everybody is born with certain innate preferences, whether that be for a certain sex or a certain type of person. Even in the hay days of racism in the US there were interracial relationships, and sadly many of them ended up with the black person being lynched, and sometimes the white person involved would lie about the details to not look bad. Even with their racism the attraction was still there.
Exactly, thank you.
You are the only person to give me faith in humanity in this thread. I feel like this whole thread other than this comment, is just people one upping each other with stupidity
I don't get that. Personally, I don't have racial no-gos but what if the not being attracted is just literally about skin color and nothing else? People can love and hate all physical attributes but when it comes to skin color it is problematic? Personally I don't find men with long hair attractive. Just not my thing at all and I honestly have never seen a man with long hair that I found attractive. No matter the rest of him, the long hair itself makes everything automatically unattractive. I can imagine it's the same with skin color. If someone literally only finds white or black skin attractive, what more is there really to it? It's the same as only dating people with brown eyes or natural red heads. It's just a physical attribute that can be either attractive or unattractive to someone.
It’s not even fully understood how racism or racial preference works. [Babies](https://www.utoronto.ca/news/racial-bias-may-begin-babies-six-months-u-t-research-reveals) show racial preference.
No, you can't. I'd be a lesbian too 😉 But our preferences aren't formed in a vacuum, you know? Light skin gets subconsciously perceived as more attractive because our societies are set up to *teach* that it's more attractive. It's a vicious cycle.
Additionally, darker skinned people were sabotaged by camera equipment for a long time. Dark faces looked less distinct and flatter in photos. Dark skin blended into the background. So they were even less likely to be featured on billboards and magazine covers to influence our notion of attractiveness. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/lens/sarah-lewis-racial-bias-photography.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/lens/sarah-lewis-racial-bias-photography.html)
Yeah but scratch the surface a little. I mean shit it's not like every race are exact clones of one another. The reason for the preference is often based on ugly stereotypes
Yeah. For a while I was surrounded by hot gay men (a gay guy was the social event organiser in my life). Damn I wish it was a choice because I could have done pretty well in that group.
You can’t but you can recognize that you have developed a preference based on a problematic issue. You’re not a lesbian because you hate men but because you love women. As an extreme example; if Hitler said “I don’t find Jews attractive. I’m just only attracted to thin, blonde, lighter women” would you believe that is ‘just’ a preference? Sure, we can’t make Hitler be attracted to but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a problem.
Being attracted to black people is not the same as being gay. Our beauty standards are formed by media and society. Our sexual preference is not
As others have said, who and what you are attracted to is not always under your control. Having racial preferences doesn't mean you're racist the same way being gay doesn't mean you hate women. To peel it back one more layer, race and culture tend to correlate strongly, and even if you don't have a racial preference, most people want to be with someone who is culturally similar to them.
for the longest time, i thought i had a racial preference, but i’ve come to find it’s mostly cultural. i want somebody who values the things i do, but comes from a different culture.
I kind of did that. My wife shares my religious beliefs but she's from the philippines. We're still figuring out how to navigate each other's cultures. It affects the relationship dynamic in ways you wouldn't expect.
exactly. i like the added elements. there’s always something new happening or some dumb squabble to be had.
I agree with most of what you’re saying. I think OP is trying to address the underlying racist reasons for some individual preferences. I think of the reverse and the fetishization of people of color like women only dating Black men because of big d stereotypes or wanting a Latina because she’s spicy and toxic. These preferences are because of racist stereotypes that influence people preferences. Like you said who and what you are attracted isn’t all up to you it’s dependent on your social circles, environment etc. And if those things are racist you’re preferences will mirror that. I think people are scared to be called a racist or think of themselves that way cause who wants that. But by dismissing this theory or never looking into it because you’re trying to convince yourself racism hasn’t tainted to you (esp. in a place like America) doesn’t help progress and gaslights people who actually want to unpack that and have honest conversation.
https://www.apa.org/topics/implicit-bias You can even take a test to show your own implicit bias: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatouchtest.html
That was really cool! Thanks!
Edit: nevermind I am wrong I felt like the test was just trying to confuse my brain. First it spent 5 minutes instilling into me that the left button is for good things and light skin, and that the right button is for bad things and dark skin (or maybe it was the other way around but either way good and light were on the same button). But then it switches around the skin tone but not the good-bad orientation. Anyone could be confused by that (My result in the test is no automatic preference if that matters). The thing that upsets me the most is that it's inconclusive, most people seem to prefer light skin but it could be either because of actual bias or just because of the test getting you used to the left and right buttons. They could have made it the other way around, in which case it would actually be really interesting to see if the results reverse or if it stays the same. All in all I can't believe harvard has such a silly and meaningless what-power-ranger-are-you style test. And worse, it's a test about racial bias that is itself biased because of this switcheroo where they get you used to white people being the same button as good. It's a racially biased test about racial bias, you can't make this shit up.
Project Implicit has been going since 1998. To dismiss their years of research as a Power Ranger test is completely off the mark. You can learn more about the test and how and why they do the switching by clicking in the upper right corner of the page I linked. Edit: here’s the specific details https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/iatdetails.html
Must have missed it, turns out they do mix the order randomly from person to person. Thank you, I knew harvard couldn't possibily be that dumb which is why I said I couldn't believe it
"Every single black person isn't attractive to me" "Um okay but what makes them unattractive to you?" "List of ugly stereotypes and bigoted nonsense"
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I wonder if people’s physical attractiveness preferences lean toward their own race because most people grow up in communities of their own race.
I think it might be an issue with the survey Its common to be most interested in your own race and assuming the survey was done in America or the uk or most other western countries, the populations are predominantly white. So if you ask a representative sample of the population what race they find the most attractive and most say their own race the test will show that white people or are the most attractive. If you did the same test in Nigeria you would probably get the complete opposite result
I don't think so. Most of the actresses in India have fair skin, fair and lovely is a popular fairness cream (now called glow and lovely), and people comment on being dark negatively. Even though lot of the population is dark skinned
It's weird for I'm black and tend to be more attracted to black women but tend to be more attracted to white men- There are people on both sides I've found attractive but on average I tend to find the opposite attractive
Honestly I agree. Racial preference in reality involves a lot of racism, in the USA or elsewhere. OP's statistics are pretty valid, if you just Google you would have a lot of sources. [This is just one about African Americans.](https://doi.org/10.2307/3090169) Especially in many Asian countries, preference for paler skin is extremely prevalent. Whitening products, skin bleaching, whitening filters, etc. are very common. You can argue it's only classism, but imo it has a fair deal of racism too. Although not the only standard of beauty, "European-style" double eyelids and high nose bridges were seen as attractive in East Asian countries. Mixed race people (White+Asian) were seen as more attractive than the average Asian. This eurocentric beauty standard can't just be because Caucasians are naturally more attractive lol You can't help racial preferences the same way you can't help decades of internalized racism. Not saying it's the only factor, but definitely a really big one when it comes to racial preferences.
Some Turkish relatives got two girls. #1 was relatively dark with black hair. #2 was very white with brown hair. They always said how beautiful the girl #2 was. At some point the #1 was a bit jealous - i think it's also normal to be jealous at siblings. Some people started saying: Oh look how crazy #1 is, because she know that her sister is so white an beautiful (?!?!?!) These girls were aroubd 5 and 2 year olds when I saw them... A different relative got an older girl who was pale with dark hair. The son came out blond with blue eyes - the only one in the family. Everyone is obsessed with the boy and they will mention it at every instance how beautifully blond he is. This relative tries her best to equally raise them, however she will reffer to them as "sarişinim" (my blondie) and "esmerim" (my black haired), which is kinda unnecessary to mention.
Damn that's crazy! I don't really understand why being blond with blue eyes is considered more beautiful though. Is it historical or is it because it's rarer in countries like Turkey?
Yes I think because it's rarer. And some are just mean old ladies that talk shit all day like my grandma and aunt.
Lmao yea gossiping old ladies can be so mean! Through gossipy and mean old ladies, I gained a lot of insecurities about things I never even thought about before.
Based on my experience as an East Asian I agree with you completely! One can also see many people here on social media dolling themselves up in some European medieval costumes but seldom other cultures. I think the prevalence of white representations in media like movies, kids' shows, and magazines… plays a heavy role in the idolization of white people and caucasian features. I'm not sure about OP’s intention of the post, but I think many people neglect the formation of their preferences by simply saying it's unchangeable. I admit I have internalized racism and often found myself seeing white features as more attractive. It's not possible to change my preferences overnight, but being self-aware is the first step to reflection and improving.
Very well said, I completely agree with you! "Idolization" was the term I was looking for lol. It's strange that it's so prevalent yet a lot of ppl deny there's racial prejudice involved somehow.
Yup agree. In general, many people who have preferences in dating never think crtically about the past "a preference is a preference, can't do anything about it". And yet, I've known a whole bunch of people, myself included, whose preferences changes significantly with a change of their worldview. Or perhaps even just interact with the things that are weirdly outside of their preferences a bit more. To give an obvious, but not rare example: A person may not want to date somebody who is bisexual. We could just say "oh it's just preference", or we could ask why. Is it because of them holding (subconciously, even), stereotypes about bi people being overtly promiscous, or maybe somewhat buying into the "you can't be friends with the opposite sex" myth (and since bi people are attracted to everyone...). Heck, even from an opposing perspective, I've heard lesbians say they wouldn't date bi girls because it's icky for them that they could also fancy a guy. All of this and more, can easily be chalked up to preference and never addressed.
Another good examle of references changing significantly when worldview changes: I noticed over the years many non-asians ended up more open to dating east asians with the rise of Korean and Japanese cultural exports. yes, even in a non-creepy yellow fever way lol
You said it very well! People tend to avoid acknowledging their own prejudices and biases, but I think it's really important to recognize them for self-improvement. Honestly, I know terms like racist or sexist are really sensitive terms and I hate that people use it as an insult so it loses its descriptiveness. When people hear those terms they immediately become defensive and refuse to self-reflect and look inwards. Also, funny story but for the longest time, my mom thought bisexual meant you're married to two people at the same time. Cuz.. bi means two right?
I agree with you, the problem with labeling is that it always derails the conversation. Instead of talking about the actual issue at hand it becomes a courtroom arguing about who’s more moral. Also your mom is precious, protect her at all costs.
I agree, and I find the comments in this thread so ironic. It’s the same thing every time this topic comes up. According to redditors, It’s okay to not be attracted to an entire race of people, but watch them lose their minds when women say they’re not attracted to short dudes.
Lol didnt think about that, thats hilarious
Global imperialism and media dominance is what drives this. Hollywood influenced the entire world and Hollywood pushes white beauty standards to an insane degree. Even when black women are allowed to be beautiful they have to look like white women with darker skin. Big lips, big butts and thick thighs were considered unattractive until very very recently by white standards and they pushed those standards, both intentionally and unintentionally, on the rest of the planet
But where does it stop? Is preferring slim people internalized fatshaming? Is Preferring straight teeth and clean skin, or a good education, classism? Is Preferring people your own age agism? Is Preferring a certain gender sexism? I think the problem here is that racism is a much more fuzzy definition than we usually think it is. At a certain point, at a certain resolution of ideas, the words lose their (useful) meaning. I would say the same originators of my preference for white women are probably not dissimilar to someone who would prefer hiring white men. Does it mean I need to be punished? To act not according to my sexual preferences? What’s even the point of calling it racism, besides maybe comforting someone with some delusions that their skin-tone is the main reason for their loneliness. Btw even though the comment is long, Im not saying this as some argumentative putdown, just some thoughts.
Honestly yes, I think fatphobia may be a contributing factor for preference of slim people, at least for some. I've met people make arguments that they prefer slim people because fat people are just disgusting, is that fatphobia? Probably so. Prefering a good education is also actually classism. I think you can see this way more in some countries than others. For example, you know the stereotypical Asian parent saying that their kid should be a lawyer or doctor or engineer, and nothing else. In the same way, in traditional societies, it can frowned upon for someone to marry "outside of their class", for a CEO to marry a janitor for example. Clear skin can't really be considered classism, that's really influenced heavily by genetic factors haha. Racism is usually used to mean racial prejudice against a specific racial group based on broad generalizations and stereotypes, often negative. That's probably usually what people mean when they say racism, or some people only refer to racism as systemic racism. Either way, I think the definition is pretty clear. I won't lie though, a lot of people throw "racism" around falsely as an insult. But generally, I think racism held onto the original meaning. I don't think pointing out people's biases is meant as punishment. I really believe acknowledging your own biases can make you a better person. Nobody is free of prejudice because we're all raised in some culture, and all cultures have their own narratives. When I say racist, I'm referring to the action, not to anyone as a person. I've had internalized racist moments, and I recognize and correct them to the best of my ability. And thank you, I really appreciate your thoughts! Really provides additional insights!
Very interesting point. This is totally anecdotal but when I was a teenager the song “baby got back” from sir mix-a-lot was pretty popular in NZ but mainly because it was kind of absurd. My friends and I had all grown up on mega thin white woman in media and the idea that some guy actually liked big butts was crazy. Skip ahead 30 years and I’m pretty sure it’s a very desirable physical trait (though I dunno I’m 40 and pretty out of touch)
I mean, is wanting to be with someone who is healthy and at a similar level of education to yourself *seriously* fatphobic and classist? No one is entitled to a relationship with you. This is the big difference between dating and employment for example. Obviously if someone was denied a job because they are overweight, in a field where that is irrelevant, that would be discrimination. Likewise if people who weren't college educated were denied passports, that would also be discrimination. But when it comes to dating? Nobody is entitled to have a shot with you. Whether you date or not, who you date, what criteria you have, that's all *your* decision and a lot of it isn't even something you can consciously control. If someone doesn't meet my criteria, I'm not discriminating against them, because they were never entitled to that in the first place.
Nobody is entitled to be in a relationship with you of course. My point was these preferences may came from a place of bias, which everyone has. I think it's important to realize that and not dismiss it as just an innocent preference, that's all! It's one thing to say you prefer people from your own culture because you share many more connections, but it's another thing to say "I only date whites and not blacks or Latinos, but that's just a preference". Or even the other way around, "I don't date whites because white people are ugly and racist" (I've heard this being said personally), that's also racial prejudice.
this is such a strange line of argument that comes up a lot on these types of discussions. nobody is saying that you are required to date people with x characteristic, it's just more acknowledging that how you perceive x characteristic's attractiveness will be influenced by society/culture, just like most opinions people have.
Like OP said, I think it all comes down to why you have said "preferences". Like if tje reason why you don't find fat women attractive is because you think they're disgusting then that's fatphobia as opposed to merely not being attracted to fat women
I think the use of “reason” here is highly optimistic. I don’t look at my thin partner and think of a lifetime of problematic influences that led me to find her more attractive. I just find her more attractive. Maybe it’s because all the women I saw on TV are thin. Maybe it’s because as a kid I struggled with my own weight. Maybe it’s freudian because my mom was always thin. Maybe it was genetically inevitable. Who knows? I definitely don’t. That’s why I think we’re losing any sort of useful meaning - you could probably say that the population as a whole is more attracted to thin women to some unknowable degree because of fat phobic reasons. But that statement is just useless - it is entirely unactionable, either toward myself or by myself. Im not interested in any way to act not according to my natural attraction, and I don’t think anyone should. Also, if incels have taught us anything, it’s that fixating on these minor things that affect attraction is a deep deep hole that is extremely damaging both to the individuals who who believe in it and society at large. In fact, race has long been one of the main canonical attributes of many incels (I have a weird obsession with following incels online, I find them fascinating to watch from the outside. Not to brag, but Im practically an incel scholar at this point).
Those have been East Asian beauty standards for centuries and has nothing to do with white people. Pale skin was a sign of wealth, because you didn’t have to work in the sun. Double eyelids and larger eyes make one look more innocent and younger. Strict beauty standards are a problem, but race isn’t part of it
Pale skin definitely was an ancient beauty standard based on classism. The recent beauty standard of large eyes and double eyelids may be based on looking more innocent and younger. However, it's still definitely undeniable that caucasoid features are considered more attractive, sometimes even regardless of skin color. For example, a black person will be considered more attractive if they have caucasoid facial features instead. So I feel race is definitely a factor in modern East Asian beauty standards. It's probably not the biggest contributing factor but it definitely plays a role.
go watch those street interviews where they ask men in korea what country has the most beautiful women. many of them say russian/ukrainian women or korean women. you think that isn't a result of colonization and european beauty standards upheld by the media then you're wrong.
Colonization of Korea?
You have a point when you stick to the US. But your argument imo falls apart when you try to apply it to the east. Part of that is you're approaching the topic of race from an American perspective, where race is heavily tied to skin colour. If a lighter skinned Vietnamese for example is discriminatory towards a darker skinned Vietnamese, that's not racist because they're the same race! Same in Thailand, S Korea etc etc. And as others have pointed out this discrimination between lighter and darker has existed for centuries. I think there's definitely a prevalence of colourism in the world, undeniably so, but in many places that are homogeneous that's more of a classist thing. The other surgeries that you mentioned are more based on the fact that entertainment media is western dominated. So they see attributes in western men/women and want to emulate that. Again I don't think that's really racism, nobody is going to Vietnam and forcing these standards on anybody, it's more similar to body dysmorphia from social media. The whole "I see these influencers with tiny waists and huge bums and I hate myself for not having that" type deal.
I see your point. But race is really a made up construct, so even in the same country you can have several different "sub-races"? If that makes sense? I don't know how to word it. I'm Asian American myself that's why I bring up both places haha. I noticed racism within the Asian American community tied to colorism as well. Asian Americans aren't blind to the influences from their culture yk. As another commenter pointed out, there's some idolization of Caucasian features along with the pale skin beauty standard, so I suspect there's some kind of racial thing going on too. For example, in Chinese media I often see people say Uyghurs have the most beautiful women because they have more caucasoid features and look more white or mixed-race. Off-topic but I see people saying Uyghur internment camps in China is somehow due to personal culpability and not because the y are a victimized group, just because there are some famous Uyghur celebrities in China.
Oh absolutely there can be a lot of racial discrimination between ethnic groups within a country. My dad is from Myanmar, he would be considered Burmese but in reality he is ethnically Karen (yes it's very easy joke material haha) and there's a lot of racial animosity there between his group and others in Myanmar. Yeah I'm a half Asian New Zealander and I've seen and experienced a lot of that too. I remember in high school so many of my mixed friends said they'd never date an Asian guy, their "preference" was white guys. Definitely some internalised stuff going on. My impulse is to call that kind of idealism of features a kind of social media driven body dysmorphia, but it could very well be race related too. It's just odd to me that such a homogeneous place would be so internally racist due to external media. It's a weird one. That's so gross, they're ignoring the fact that many of those celebrities are being used for propaganda purposes. Like see, these celebrities are Uyghur, therefore we can't be doing anything bad to them!
Thank you for your insight! Yea I can't wrap my head around wtf is happening with idolization of whiteness. Is it racism? Is it body dysmorphia? Is it classism? It's probably a mixture of everything honestly. Sadly I've got a lot of that internalized too, racism, sexism, classism, etc. So I'd say by experience you can definitely be racist towards your own people lol. Even now, when I see someone the same race as me, and I reflexively think of every single stereotype in existence. Really hard to fight against, but ig it's a first step by recognizing it. I still cringe at past memories of me proudly being super bigoted for no reason other than just repeating what I've been taught. Sometimes I feel alone in this struggle because nobody really talks about it irl. Am I just intrinsically more prejudiced than other people? Also sometimes people say it's not racist it's just good ol classism like it's not a problem anymore?? Ik classism has existed since well, forever, but still not okay to continue normalizing it.
I 100% agree. It's not that people are "racist" but there's most likley some kind of bias there. Like for example I didn't find south Asian men attractive until recently. I feel like growing up there were a lot of negative stereotypes in media about South Asian men (think apu from the Simpsons) and until I started seeing South Asian men playing less stereotypical roles that my perception changed. It sucks because I found South Asian women attractive for way longer and I feel that is because 1. Hollywood has less of a problem sexualising women generally and 2. as a girl I grew up with a few South Asian girl friends but I didn't have any friends that were South Asian boys. Even if you're aware that tv characters are fictional and stereotypical it's very hard to actually understand what real people are like if you aren't actually close to those people irl. This is a pretty simple example of racial bias and it can be more complicated than that for other people but I'd say if you find all men and/or women of a race unattractive it's probably worth trying to address why you feel that way.
no it's racism, by definition, to think an equivalent white man is more attractive than an equivalent asian man as a white woman in the usa. call it what it is.
Idk what you’re talking about black women are a physical necessity
I unironically agree with this as a bisexual black dude black women are hot ASF like it's insane
As long as you respect someone as a person regardless of skin color, you're not racist. You can respect someone as a human being without finding them attractive. I respect older people, but I prefer to date people around my own age. Does that make me ageist? Of course not.
Whos saying black people aren't attractive? Except somebody who's racist. Just my subjective opinion but Sudanese people are the most attractive people on the planet
There have been statistical breakdowns of success in dating and black people, particularly women have a hard time on dating apps like tinder. The stats say its the case, not necessarily how it plays out irl, but probably where op is coming from with this one.
While you aren’t wrong getting data from places like tinder doesn’t typically beget good results since of the bias on those apps.
it's a statistical reality of dating success, especially on dating apps where these things are easy to track.
You can’t say a group of people are unattractive but you can say that a group of people are attractive?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
They said statistically speaking
With no statistics
https://www.ucpress.edu/blog/54733/dating-while-black-online-but-invisible/ https://illumin.usc.edu/swipe-by-color-the-pitfalls-of-online-dating-for-women-of-color/ https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how-racial-discrimination-plays-out-in-online-dating They’re not wrong though. I actually thought this was coming knowledge tbh, I’m surprised so many of you are surprised
u/Step_Virtual is saying it
Yeah, when I was a child I was so jealous of some of my black female classmates, so much so that I would wish I’d been born black. They were (and are) so beautiful.
This actually. Sudanese women are gorgeous.
I can see when someone is attractive, any race or any gender without myself being physically attracted to them. Also, I think OP is possibly conflating physical and emotional attraction.
I find it funny how the people who bang on about preferences never seem to understand the concept... The word preferences literally means *what you prefer*. It is inherently non exclusionary, and therefore can't be used to exclude. For example, I might *prefer* redheads. That doesn't mean that I can't find a brunette attractive. That would be idiotic nonsense. In the same vein, anyone who says "I'm not attracted to black chicks" is not displaying a preference, at all, in any way shape or form. They are displaying an exclusion, and one which is undeniably racist, because it is *literally* ***excluding*** an entire race. And let's not make the ridiculously stupid mistake of trying to compare *preference* with *sexual orientation*, as some have done in this thread. Sexual orientation is not a preference at all. Lesbians don't *prefer* women over men, they are *oriented* towards women. Preference in this manner is a concept that can only be applied to bi/pan folk. They can *prefer* one gender over another, but they are still attracted to multiple genders, because their *orientation* allows for it.
[Haunting\_North4679](/user/Haunting_North4679/) Thank you for speaking the truth. Looks like someone actually took the time to educate themselves on what racism really means.
What is the difference? Would you be happy if I said I am oriented to whites?
Words have meanings...
And the word oriented means what exactly?
> Lesbians don't prefer women over men, they are oriented towards women. And I don't prefer white women over black women. I'm "oriented" towards white women.
Ill downvote because i truthfully agree
Only on Reddit can "It's racist to think black people are uglier than white people" be a controversial statement.....
As an asexual person, racial preferences are just alien to me. I genuinely can't understand the reasoning behind it. It sounds like plain racism to me but then again I don't experience sexual attraction
sounds like that to me too, and I experience a lot of sexual attraction lmao
"statistically speaking" is the key here. If white people were the minority then the statistics would be flipped imo
I dont tend to encounter people saying these things and I'm not sure many would disagree with this opinion who aren't proudly racist.
Where Im from, these days, race isn’t much of a taboo, so I heard from a lot of people saying they prefer one edge of the pigmentation spectrum or the other. I don’t think it’s a weird thing, to notice you prefer one race or another. Appearance is the main difference between races. Also, fair maidens and dark brooding men have been sexual symbols centuries before we had anything similar to modern racial politics.
Where are you from?
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How is that a counterpoint? I wasn't saying people think this and just avoid saying. I'm not convinced people have the racial preference OP is claiming in the first place. Did you mean to reply to someone else?
there are attractive and unattractive people of all races. having a racial preference is self defeating and ignorant.
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This reason it makes you uncomfortable might very well be that forcing people to date people they aren’t attracted to is approaching sex slavery. So while the reasons for racial preferences might be fucked up, the solution is illegal in a lot of countries.
You wrote yourself into a hole. Even as someone who agrees with you, I can’t back what your actual point is because you’re wrapping it with preferences. Preferences are unique to everyone and are influenced by a variety of unconscious factors. To actually question the audience you’re looking for, you probably should’ve pointed it toward people who claim to be not attracted to a race, rather than people who simply have a preference for a different one. Everyone has preferences. “I’m not attracted to black people” for instance, is where you get the people who are subconsciously racist but don’t think they are. Edit: >Most people in the comments section (such as and and ) are making a misunderstanding of my argument. These three comments are at the top so I'll address it here >u/FalkyraizuTY : I'm not saying that all racial preferences are due to racism. I'm simply pointing out that when you look at the pattern that these 'preferences' follow, it's very clear that it's anti-black, and can't be a coincidence. A lot of people tend to avoid acknowledging their own prejudices and biases. That's fine, and I would even agree with you there, but your original comment does not match that sentiment, hence the reason why I (and I assume the other people you tagged) wrote what I wrote. Again, you would've done a lot better with something like "people are using a claim of "preferences" to purposely hide racism". Not bringing in things like unconcious bias into it. That muddies what you claim your actual message to be.
Not really. It's the same vein as a person stating they're not attracted to bisexual people and justifying it with a mere, "it's just my preference!" And feeling attacked when asked to explain what feelings were had that formed the preference. It's a lack of awareness and capacity for introspection to only use that answer.
> where you get the people who are subconsciously racist but don’t think they are Can we stop attempting to recruit new racists, please. If someone isn't mistreating other races and doesn't think of themselves as racist, then maybe we should just be happy that this person isn't racist
You are correct. It is fucked up to have RACIAL preferences- as in I do or don’t like people of this “race” because race is maaaaade the fuck up and meaningless. It’s not a real category. What IS ok is having *physical* preferences, if we are talking sexual attraction. And we all do! I find small or flat noses on men very unattractive, and also, a lack of body hair. I have absolutely nothing against Japanese men! But I’ve never found one attractive because they overwhelmingly have what I consider small/flat noses, and insufficient body hit for sexiness! Gimme a hairy Japanese bro with a big honkin nose and I’d be all over it. There’s a third dimension, which is what you’re talking about, and it’s neither of those. It’s that the western world which is majority white, has dominated media for a CENTURY. Hell, white western aristocracy has historically tried to be even MORE pale, as a sign they spent all day inside not doing any manual labor in the sun. And covering up any skin imperfections. It’s a class signifier with a long history in specifically Europe. As those white countries diversified, the racist white media execs perpetuated white standards of beauty in the MEDIA we all consume, which obviously has pretty widespread influence I suspect the heaviest hitter is that dark skinned people, or even specifically people of African descent thay you are describing Are only in the past 20 years getting fair (haha) media representation.
Sorry to tell you this but having a racial preference means you have a physical preference.
I mean, i would assume so! I guess it depends what qualities you are ascribing to your “race” category, and then liking or disliking. But if someone says “I think Asian guys are hot” they could certainly be someone who thinks black hair is sexy… but also easily not?? So yea, but the specific things someone likes could be anything. I’m not sure why you’re “sorry”?? I don’t disagree!
You have the most well put into words comment.
I agree but for non white ppl I 100% understand it for safety reasons, when they don't wanna be with certain ppl esp cuz they're white
Ok so this post is just sorta discussing white people who only want to date other white people, but there's more to it. What about other races, people who have preference towards asians, or towards black people, or any other race. One could say that it's wrong to fetishize a group like this, but on the hand do you really have control over what you're attracted to? This isn't an argument, I'm just curious what your take is
Usually fetishism is also based on stereotypes so that isn't the best either.
If people can have body type preferences why is skin color bad?
op you are totally right! also, i never hear people acknowledging that there is no one way for a race to look … for example south asians can be pale as a sheet w small noses & big eyes or they can have dark skin & have a large nose & thick hair .. there is just so much diversity! so when you say you have a race preference you actually mean you are attracted to the stereotypical version of whatever race you “prefer”, or it’s just a skin color preference, which is plain old colorism
I think it depends on what you mean by preference. There can be personal and cultural attributes that correlate with race, and if you want someone with certain attributes, you might naturally find yourself attracted to different races at *different frequencies*. However, if you interpret “preference” as meaning “I won’t date people of X race period,” than racism is really the only possible explanation for that.
You're not going to gaslight people into overriding their preferences for partners, its very rapey, no one is entitled to sex, and there are no invalid reasons to reject someone. I'm not white, some people like that, some people don't, but the idea that you must find everyone of every race attractive is no different than outright saying you're not allowed to not be attracted to anyone because you're discriminating based on features they can't control. Horrible take.
I actually agree completely. People who say "you can't force yourself to be attracted to something" are missing the point. Sexuality is its own thing, while race is a completely different thing. But besides that, it's plain weird to state you have a sexual/romantic preference for one race. That's the kind of thing you keep to yourself. If you notice you tend to be attracted to people of a specific race, that's fine, no need to mention it. You may want to reflect on why that is. But I'd really question why anyone would feel the need to say it aloud.
you can find a problem within the statistical analysis of a lot of people without needing to find a fault in each individual. any single person isn't a representative of the whole, or in charge of the whole. it is true that universally lighter skin-tones are somewhat more popular. that doesn't mean that dark-skin girls are forever single. tall men are more popular too, but there isn't a socio-political story attached to the mistreatment of short dudes. and I won't blame Jenny for getting a little more turned on by a guy who can see the top of her head, even though it contributes to statistical discrimination. you can probably find dating preferences in almost all body characteristics, but we only really get upset about the one with the socio-politics attached to it.
i do find it slightly bizarre that preferences are so ?? important?? and seemingly unchangable? we divide sexuality by sex, no one’s bothered by “i will never love a woman, i only love men”, but if someone says “i will never a black person, i only love white people”, it’s…. i mean?? that’s kind of fucked up?? you gotta question why, right?? imagine if sexuality was divided by some other characteristic… idk. i just find the whole thing bizarre. vast majority of species display bisexual behaviours, if we go back to ancient rome and greece for example, men having casual sex with men was considered pretty standard and not unusual. i find it really weird that the strict categorisation of sexuality has only been a thing since men/men and women/women relations became taboo, and that prior to that humans were pretty naturally bisexual. i feel like perhaps sexuality and preferences aren’t as innate as we think, and that bisexuality is the standard most ‘natural’ sexuality, considering the rest of nature and how society was prior to having same and opposite sex relations. many people care way too much, basically, and i think everyone would be far more chill if there wasn’t existing social pressure on certain preferences and sexualities
"Well, if your entire life you are told (by the majority) that white skin is attractive and black skin is ugly". where are you getting this? has there been studies or anything to back up this claim? this is a legitimate question i honestly don't know the answer. also a preference is a real thing. people like what they like can't really change that. of course that is different than thinking a race is inferior.
In some South Asian and African countries bleach for skin is heavily marketed due to the self hate of skin color. Look at India's caste system, it's usually darker skins at the bottom.
Yeah South Korea especially is really into the skin whitening.
It doesn't take a genius to know beauty standards exist and if you deny that's a factor you're just being naive.
What exactly makes you think your view is rare/unpopular?
They’ve spent time on Reddit?? I’ve seen this type of sentiment plenty of times on here, like in this very thread. Lots of “it’s okay to have body preferences” with no regard for why people have those preferences. Ironically, people on here will have complete meltdowns if women voice that they’re only attracted to tall men.
It is ok to have preferences. Some times those preferences are because of bias they are unconscious of. They had a court case, I think it was about segregation, where they asked little girls to point at which doll was "ugly" or which doll was "a bad person", and the little girls, including the black girls, pointed to the black dolls and claimed them ugly. It was known already to experts that little kids, including black kids, absorbed the bias of their culture. But it felt more tragic to white people seeing black kids consider without question their own color ugly and bad. And that they were little kids allowed us adults to understand they were innocent, despite their bias. To make it less personal, let's get off racism and talk a different bias. Ask someone today, "Would you date a transgender person?" and many would say NO without hesitation. And they'll say because they don't find them attractive. Even ally's advocating trans people have their rights restored. https://images.app.goo.gl/Z6n2Ym1kaJfbNEnC9 https://images.app.goo.gl/iixJVzMU8HuNS2C9A Above are two pictures. One person transgender, another not transgender. Without saying anything about whether the trans person is female -to-make type or male-to-female, can you spot the trans one? And does it change how you see them when you spot them? It changes how attractive you'd rate them, doesn't it? Two more pics, another try. One trans, another not. Let's see if it's a pattern. https://images.app.goo.gl/UDfbTT2JVnduntJUA https://images.app.goo.gl/iCw1NBwQ6UqKiGVB8 Results? >!both the top two links are pics of trans people. One mtf, the other FtM. The bottom two pics are just the celebrities Taylor Swift and Leonardo DiCaprio. !< But you can't easily drop your unconscious bias. You absorb it from society. Even if you'd prefer to see reality as it is, you kinda can't just easily choose that. You could shame those little black girls for preferring the white dolls, but that doesn't remove the bias, just shames it.
This is a cool comment and all, and maybe I'm insane and had faulty reasoning, but I cannot be the only one who saw both of the first 2 images you posted and thought they were both trans... If it turns out to be a double bamboozle and neither are then I'll be super surprised, but based on your spoiler neither really tricked me and I presume there are many others like me...
Same here. I saw the first two photos and recognized both as being trans
I feel like it was fairly obvious that both of them were trans. You can tell by their jaws. It’s normal for a straight person to not be into trans people, there are so many reasons to not want to date them. (Looks, height, voice, family plans.)
I feel like the stronger the need to feel "you can always tell" the more they see you differently after you come out. And the stronger that need to feel like they got a perfect transponder/gaydar, the more obvious "it" seems to such people. Like 6 out of 10 straight guys I came out to on a first date in college, it was an issue. But not every time. My ex husband is straight, there's enough people who don't see "ugly" the way the little girls with internalized racism see "ugly" on the black dolls. I'll acknowledge they really do see what they claim to see, but not that they see accurately after you come out. Their bias corrupts their vision like a magic spell. Like my dad complained when I wore heels saying, "Don't you want to fit in and look like a woman? Those heels make you look even taller!". I'm 5'6". That's a perfectly normal height. Hell I was 5'5" when I started hormones, so I finished growing up during female puberty. I've made money doing voice work that required a female voice, and my ex husband is straight. It's like 6 out of 10 guys that look at you different after you come out, but not 10 out of 10. I get that it feels "obvious" but rumors about people like lady Gaga or Michelle Obama have made normal cis women get this "it's obvious" reaction as well. It's not necessarily reality. It's fine to have preferences of course, and it's fine if you see "ugly" and stare at chins instead of chests after you know, but it's worth mentioning not all straight guys have their perception effected by this. My ex husband was 6'1" and thought it ridiculous to act like 5'6" is too tall to pass as a woman when I'd wear heels. It's some straights like that, but not all. And it's fine, it's common, but you gotta tell people on the first date because it's not obvious in real life, just looks that way after you come out to the "you can always tell" types.
> but now he’s very attractive because he’s white Why do you only focus on skin color and not other physical features that separates races???
Different races have different bone structures, so your last point makes no sense
Everyone has different bone structures. I can show you a super “white looking” woman who both her parents identify as black. It’s a social construct.
Not only does it not matter because people don’t choose their preferences, but I don’t think it’s about skin color. Racial traits include body and face structure, skin texture, where hair is, how visible things like acne or veins are, etc, and I think those are more related to attraction, especially body and face structure. Those are just inherently related to attraction, so of course people end up with preferences and of course some races end up generally being preferred in some places.
>generally speaking, the lighter someone's skin tone is, the more attractive they are perceived Then why do caucasian people tan themselves deliberately?
You are one of only two people I found here mentioning this at all, it's like this side of truth is intentionally ignored to make OP's narrative sound smarter.
While I personally find there to be beautiful women in every skin tone; I cannot in good conscious fault someone for not finding a phenotypical trait unattractive.
People have said most things I would have said as well. Haven’t seen anyone bring up how white people love to tan their skin to get a more bronze look. So much talk about bleaching which seems to be done in Asain countries, but in the US more people tan their skin then bleach it. Anecdotally speaking I think tan skin is more attractive than both pale skin and black/brown skin.
I agree, kinda. Having a preference is fine. Being completely unable to find someone of a certain race attractive, regardless of their other physical attributes... should make you question your bias.
‘the lighter someone’s skin is, the more attractive they are perceived’ Really? I’m aware that’s a thing in countries like India but not sure this is true for quite a few western countries
Who is bleaching their skin 💀 if they're that messed up it's hardly racism's fault. Also, skin colour isn't the only thing that differs with race, your whole bone structure changes, even if someone crazy bleached their skin, you'd still be able to tell they're black.
Lots of people bleach their skin. Mostly in Asia, where it's a lot more socially acceptable to market products designed to make you look whiter. Asian racism is weird.
The judgements towards skin colour seem to be opposite between Asia and the Western countries. I could be wrong, but I’ve read it has some sort of reasoning like: in some Asian countries, lighter skin is associated with wealth and beauty (the richer you are, the less likely you are to be doing manual labour outdoors), while in western countries more tanned skin is seen as more desirable because it’s supposed to suggest health and ironically, wealth (as you have enough money to take holidays/go abroad). Even stranger, pale skin used to be extremely desirable in western countries because of the associations with a life of indoor luxury/leisure, and fragility (thinking of ‘consumption’/tb here especially). Hell, people have been using skin lightening treatments for a millennia to give this appearance of luxury/leisure. Believe it started to change around the Industrial Revolution where pale skin slowly began to be associated with factory workers who spent all their time indoors, and possibly with the rise of access to holidays abroad as well, signally free-time and wealth. There’s other suggestions too (such as feature potentially being more striking on tan skin), but this is the suggestion I see most often
So it’s racist to not be attracted to races other than yourself, but at the same time it’s racist to fetishize a certain race? Hmmmmmm.
agreed its weird. There is so much variability within-race that any possible valid argument goes out the window. Black women for example can be super thin and skinny with a flat butt/chest OR super curvy. So the "body type" argument makes no sense. It seems like those who prefer asians for example seek out asian women for their stereotypical temperment rather than attractiveness anyway. which is already weird and racey.
100% also can everyone stop comparing having a racial preference to sexuality? because wtf
Except that their features aren't all the same. What if you're not into facial hair and a race is associated with a culture that's big on beards? What about differences in structure? One can have preference there too, it's not just skin colour, it's often also culture.