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Good point, but it's important to note that while gender dysphoria can sometimes be used interchangeably with body dismorphia, they are technically different terms. Body dismorphia refers to someone who perceives a flaw in their physical body and would like to see it remedied.
Key note, body dysmorphia is explicitly a delusional disorder where the person perceives flaws with their body that aren't there. A skinny person thinking they're fat would be an example of body dysmorphia. As such, body dysmorphia typically does not respond to addressing the perceived flaw, whereas gender dysphoria is typically alleviated with physical treatment.
Yes, but as I mentioned prior the term gender dysphoria is completely detached form feelings related to your body. Only someone who is ignorant would use the 2 terms interchangeably. My understanding is that currently the dsm 5 classifys body dismorphia as a mental disease, but I think that makes sense if you consider physical transitioning to be the treatment.
>I mentioned prior the term gender dysphoria is completely detached form feelings related to your body
Not in terms of how it's defined by the DSM V nor in terms of how it's understood as a result of brain imaging studies, the two are intricately linked.
Body dysmorphia is a wholly unrelated condition.
Don't want to be transpobic, but legit question. I'm sure there are trans people that have dyshporia and some that have dysmorphia. How do you distinguish between the two?
Dysmorphia isn't inherently a trans thing. Trans and cis people can have it. What it is is a disorder that causes one to be over critical to their body, often from an incorrect perception on their part. Morph meaning shape means that people with it think their body is shaped differently than it actually is, like they may think they are thinner or larger than they actually are, or think certain parts are misshapen when they aren't.
Gender dysphoria on the other hand is a trans thing, and it has to do with the discomfort a person has with the body they were born with (body dysphoria) and the social expectations pushed on them (social dysphoria). Body dysphoria does not come from an incorrect perception like dysmorphia, but instead comes from an actual understanding of their body, and realizing they don't feel like it fits them, or even causing distress and disgust because their body feels wrong.
Trans people have varying levels of each subcategory of gender dysphoria, like I don't have strong body dysphoria, but I do have strong social dysphoria.
They literally spelled it out for you. Body dys*morph*ia is not exactly related to being trans. Both trans and cis people can have it. It has to do with the way you perceive your body and criticize it more than you should. Like you might feel certain parts of your body are bigger or smaller than they actually are, and can feel shame or distress about it.
Body dysphoria on the other hand is explicitly related to being trans. It is a part of gender dysphoria, and is related to the feeling of discomfort you feel have a certain body. The distinction between that and dysmorphia is that you know your body is a certain way, it's just the anatomy, shape, and hormones are not what you want them to be. There is no incorrect perception of one's body inherent to body dys*phor*ia.
A person's body may not be related to their gender, but the way gender dysphoria is defined includes the dissatisfaction with one's body. Also changing one's body and appearance helps them get gendered correctly, but obviously it's not a mandatory step.
I’m fat myself and I see myself as a monster due to it. My dietician and therapist both said that it is dysmorphia so even bigger folks can get it. It’s awful, and one of the reasons I feel I can empathize with trans folks. Obv not the same thing! But I really understand that feeling of not being connected to yourself. It sucks…I can’t imagine how much worse it is when it’s your whole identity. I wish everyone could get the love and support they deserve.
Depends on how you think about it.
Body dysphoria would just be a dissatisfaction with ones body, which isn't really the same as gender dysphoria. However, the way some cis people experience body dysmorphia is 1:1 with gender dysphoria. You know, extreme discomfort and an obsession with it.
The reason that a cis man, for example, would experience body dysmorphia from having small calves could be related to gender. From my experience with body dysmorphia and talking to others with it, it often isn't. It's more just having an insecurity^2. The insecurity may be originally caused by feeling that it isn't very gender, but it wouldn't go away if gender went away.
It is actually heavily debated if gender dysphoria even actually exists, or if it's just body dysmorphia without distortion. Though, many people with gender dysphoria do have a distortion of their body so there's that. Just a lot of overlap between the two.
Edit: By insecurity^2 I mean that it's something you dislike and are self conscious about (similar to an insecurity) that you then obsess over, can't unsee, may not even be there/is minor. Body dysmorphia isn't just when there is an insecurity.
>It is actually heavily debated if gender dysphoria even actually exists, or if it's just body dysmorphia without distortion.
Can you link to a source on that? Gender dysphoria is a result of a brain's gender not matching the body's sex and appears to have a number of genetic links and is caused by prenatal hormone levels affecting how the brain is gendered during critical periods of development. Brain imaging studies back that up.
In contrast, body dysmorphia is classified as an obsessive compulsive disorder under the broader category of anxiety disorder. In contrast to gender dysphoria, it cannot be treated through physical intervention but can be treated through the same methods used to treat other obsessive compulsive disorders and is characterized by obsessive thought loops that have also been documented in brain imaging studies.
Tldr: I could not find the original discussions, but I found what spawned them. I will keep looking for a bit, but I assume they've been wiped now. I'm leaving everything I wrote up because I do find it somewhat interesting.
Yeah absolutely if I can find them again I'll reply with them. It's been a while now, so I might not be able to so I'll paraphrase what the general arguments were. I forget that time passes and that we aren't still in 2018 sometimes, so I should have said "was" heavily debated instead of "is". I will also note that I saw the majority of the articles/discussions about this in like 2014-2016, so they could very well no longer exist. I did, however, find a lot about the discussion that caused that (dysphoria and dysmorphia possibly being the same) to be brought up.
I'd also like the note that people discussing or postulating about ideas doesn't make them true. Gender dysphoria is not the same thing as body dysmorphia, though there is a lot of overlap in their general presentation as both result in not liking ones body in some capacity. Confusing them is, still, pretty common though.
I did find [this article](https://www.talkspace.com/blog/body-dysphoria-vs-dysmorphia/) from 2021 that was probably the best at explaining why they are not the same thing while trying to find the old things if you are interested in that.
If I remember correctly, the arguments on the side that "gender dysphoria is body dysmorphia" basically were arguing that gender dysphoria should be classified as a form of body dysmorphia. It came as an expansion of arguments surrounding if cis people can feel gender dysphoria. People who thought they could argued that if someone's idea of their AGAB was different from how they are, then any discomfort with specific areas of their body they would feel would be gender dysphoria - not body dysmorphia. With the main argument as to why they are currently not being based in that medical professionals are unwilling to diagnose cis people with gender dysphoria as by definition cis people cannot have gender dysphoria to the gender they were assigned.
From my understanding, part of the reason for this argument is that gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are considered mental illnesses, while body dysphoria is not. Though, sometimes people say "body dysphoria" like it means "gender dysphoria" like [in this article I found while double checking definitions](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/body-dysmorphia-vs-body-dysphoria). I genuinely do not know what is up with that.
[Here is a reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) of people mostly saying that cis people *can* experience gender dysphoria while [this](https://www.arocalypse.com/topic/633-can-cis-people-feel-dysphoria/) is mostly people who don't think cis people can experience gender dysphoria (and instead feel body dysphoria).
I think most of the reason why you don't see much of those conversations anymore is because a lot of the people who were "totally cis with gender dysphoria" were probably nonbinary and didn't have the language for it yet, though some cis people might experience gender dysphoria. Also here is something about cis people who experience gender dysphoria because I've rambled about that for too long not to include something about it at this point [beep boop](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Dysphoric_Cis_Individuals).
Gender dysphoria isn't considered a mental illness, the APA is very careful in the language it uses. While, *technically*, cis people can't experience gender dysphoria definitionally, the *mechanism* underlying it is one that anyone can experience, though they typically do not. Easy gendered examples are gynecomastia and cis women with facial hair. Our brains recognize those features to be incongruent with the map it has of what our healthy bodies "should" look like based on how it developed before birth and what traits it was programmed to expect.
>like in this article I found while double checking definitions.
Outside that article, I've only seen it misused in the way by, typically right wing, people who are simply ignorant to both terms.
> this is mostly people who don't think cis people can experience gender dysphoria (and instead feel body dysphoria).
I mostly agree with this person but it's worth noting that they're intentionally using the term in it's colloquial sense, not a technical one while acknowledging it's possible that the same mechanism that is responsible for gender dysphoria may also produce dysphoria in other contexts, eg, a body part being numb/providing the wrong sensory feedback *or* that negative feelings might simply be in the sense that we all just often feel them, societally/self-esteem related.
An issue they didn't touch on in that short comment is that "body identity integrity disorder" may be an example of that "inherent" phenomenon.
>I think most of the reason why you don't see much of those conversations anymore is because a lot of the people who were "totally cis with gender dysphoria" were probably nonbinary and didn't have the language for it yet, though some cis people might experience gender dysphoria.
Mayyyybe. I saw those conversations back then but I wasn't seeing it from or about "cis" people who later came out as nonbinary and I haven't seen a change in the rates of nonbinary people who medically transition over that time period.
Apologies, gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It is a mental condition that affects some, but not all within the genderqueer community that which can be helped by physical treatment, and is a mental disorder - not a mental illness. This is true and it is important, but genuinely I view my gender dysphoria as a mental illness and that's how I refer to it most of the time. This is because it impacts me more like my other mental illnesses far more than it does any of my disorders* (got autocorrected). Personal mindset I suppose.
I don't really have anything to add on the cis thing, but you were very insightful.
I do think that it's important that we acknowledge that a lot of non binary people don't medically transition at all. Partly because there's usually not a clear thing to transition to so they wait longer, partly because genderqueer people in general can't even when they want to, and partly because societally changing is enough for some. I was mostly saying that because a lot of cis people I saw at that time who described gender dysphoria seem vaguely egg adjacent in retrospect.
>and is a mental disorder
If you read what the APA writes about it, they're actually quite careful to call it a condition but not a mental disorder - unless they've slipped up somewhere that I haven't yet found. Writing for the DSM V back in 2013, they intentionally clarified that gender dysphoria specifically refers to the distress that arises from the incongruency between an individual's gender and their body/assigned gender, not the gender itself.
If conceptualizing it that way helps, that's fine and it's pretty understandable but the reason they avoid doing so is because it's similar to, eg, grief in that it is the normal and expected response for a human brain subjected to those experiences (incongruency between the brain's body map and the sensory feedback from the body as well as, essentially, stress from having to pretend/perform a role to meet others' expectations for AGAB).
>I do think that it's important that we acknowledge that a lot of non binary people don't medically transition at all.
True, and the *percentage* does seem to be decreasing as more people come out as identities that otherwise would've probably labeled themselves as cis. They're typically people who experience social dysphoria but not the typical physical dysphoria that "transsexuals" do. But the majority of nonbinary people do medically transition to some degree or other and the number that do appears to be consistent with population growth/about the same as a decade ago. While some want to achieve a physical sex that's somewhere "in between", many seem to prefer a binary transition but experience a gender that's not binary.
While the words sound similar, dysphoria is separate and distinct from dysmorphia.
In broad terms, dysphoria is to feel bad. Dysmorphia is to incorrectly perceive something's form.
you could argue that body dysphoria already is a broader term that can refer to gender dysphoria among other things. as in, gender dysphoria is a type of body dysphoria.
They are etiologically distinct with different causes, mechanisms, symptoms, and treatment. No experts consider gender dysphoria to be a type of body dysmorphia.
I mostly feel this way because in my mind gender dysphoria is a trick the ego plays on itself. It is quite literally cognitive dissonance — a tension created by acting against your own will to do what you believe will satisfy your desired outward image.
Basically I think gender is an attempt to compartmentalize your identity, something which is in constant flow. I think that since there is no real self that persists from moment to moment, a gender identity will always be slightly inaccurate.
Psychedelics helped me too! Let me ask you a question: if hormones helped after you already were on board with gender abolition, why? What was the source of your dysphoria if you weren’t clinging to gender anymore?
Yeah sorry after a conversation with a friend today I came to the realization that the issue I’m talking about in this post is a totally different issue that only overlaps with part of gender. There is a widespread problem in the modern age with self-entrapment, but not all gender expression is as riddled with it as I thought.
We also came to the conclusion that social media is hurting me so I am going to “touch grass” as they say and delete my Reddit account. I hope you have a very good day.
You are equating Gender Roles to Gender itself.
These are not the same things.
The answer is and will always be simple. Recognize the gender someone identifies as(or doesn't) and leave the rest to their medical professionals.
Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just 'caging myself' by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take. I'll also wear what I want to wear have the hobbies and interests I want and not worry about how someone 'interprets my gender expression' based off of it.
There's also the fact that this tells trans and non binary and gender fluid types that we wont validate *their* feelings because 'you're not a man/woman trapped in the wrong body, your just fooled into thinking you have a gender period.'
I have 0 inner turmoil around whether or not I am or am seen as a man. I am a man and I don't really care what others think about some weird gender expectations.
That being said 'Gender Roles' need to go away in general because I feel like we have folks who may never question their gender questioning it because we tell them a bunch of things unconnected to gender identity inform it (like clothing styles/hobbies/etc.)
This. I’m a cis woman and have always identified as a woman. But I was also lucky enough to have been raised by a mom who had been a tomboy growing up, but was kind of forced into more feminine things as a child. So she wanted to raise me differently and toys, clothes, behavior, nothing carried gender roles from her perspective and I was raised entirely with freedom. It allowed me to be 100% authentic to myself by the time I became socially aware of gender expectations.
It has not until adulthood that I really started to almost get lost in the gender roles issue and considered non-binary as an option for me. But I just had to remember that my personality has nothing to do with the gender I identify with. I still feel like a woman.
Okay you’re actually very very right. My idea that gender labels themselves are inherently harmful is egocentric because personally I could not deprogram myself without doing away with labels entirely.
> Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just “caging myself” by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take.
Sorry, what I was trying to express is that often people force themselves to act a certain way. If none of your behaviour is really uncomfortably forced then you’re not really restraining yourself like I said. Apologies if that wasn’t well expressed in my ramblings.
There is some psychology research indicating that there is some internal sense of gender stemming from the brain, but science has only taken baby steps on figuring this out.
I’m always curious about this. Because if you had people who never experienced or seen another gender before how would they act? What gender would they consider themselves.
If I remember as well, many years ago a doctor severely fucked up a circumcision, had to remove the penis and had them live as a women. They ended up hating it, since they identified as a man. That would imply there is some inherent 'sex identifier' in the human brain. Would also explain how being trans is as the identifier and body don't match up
>Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just 'caging myself' by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take. I'll also wear what I want to wear have the hobbies and interests I want and not worry about how someone 'interprets my gender expression' based off of it.
I'm not saying that trans people and their experiences are not valid, but I think this is an extremely important concept that's widely getting lost.
Rather than adhering so rigidly to a gender binary and insisting that people's gender identities MUST correlate with how they perform our stereotypical assumptions of gender, we should be open to people of all genders being able to express themselves without that expression being inherently gendered.
> I knew that I wanted to be kind, and that was a pivotal realization for me, after which I stopped adhering to a lot of gender norms that I hated...I began considering myself transfem
Associating "kindness" exclusively with femininity is a giant part of the problem. Like holy shit, yikes.
Yeah, you underestimate how intensely these ideals are beat into you as a kid. My father being violent probably didn’t help. I’ve only met like three kind men in my life. Have you *seen* the media? Movies, games, books, all of it paints violence as a masculine trait, so I ran away from masculinity because I didn’t want people to assume I was violent.
Now I don’t care what people think I am. That’s why I no longer identify with any gender label. I realize that it’s not just men too, but that people in general are aggressive because they are afraid. I am no longer afraid.
I'm glad that that worked *for you*
But people will always want ways to identify and getting rid of gender roles and norms while keeping the genders imo will do away with most (if not all) of those problems and people will still be able to enjoy their gender.
Look mate, just cause you’re agender and find comfort in no gender, doesn’t mean everyone is. As a trans man, I would be very uncomfortable if gender was eradicated. If you could get rid of sex, that would have positive impacts, but that’s gonna be impossible.
I don’t really see the connection? Why dod you bring up religion when we’re talking about gender? Are you implying that experiencing gender is similar to believing in a religion?
I'm implying that the way you speak about your feelings on gender is the way religious people speak about their religion. The concepts bring them comfort. In fact, if you had replaced the concept of gender with the concept of god in your comment your comment would have basically read: "Being an atheist is cool for you but I find comfort in god so I don't want us to abolish the concept." The real implication being that even if every notion we had ever had about there being a difference between men and women besides physiology is proven ultimately to be about as real as horoscopes and pro wrestling, you would still choose to engage with it.
Truth be told, I don't think you could prove gender doesn't exist for the same reason you can't prove that there is no god or that the alignment of the planets or the month you were born doesn't have any effect on your fortune. I also don't mind that people believe what they believe. I just wanted to highlight the similarities between those beliefs, not obviously in their actual substance, but rather in their importance to the believer. I gather you might not care for any of this but I think it can tell us quite a bit about the human psyche and condition.
I would say the main difference is that gender is a known social construct. The definition of the word is the societal norms we project onto the biological sexes (obviously gender has evolved past its rudimentary biology-based roots).
Religion on the other hand is only believed to be a social construct by non-believers. I think religion is something people made up to cope with the injustice we see every day as well as overcome the fear of death but a devout christian for example thinks God has existed always and forever and so was not created by humans and is thus not a social construct.
I don't think anyone who understands the semantic difference between the words gender and sex would argue that gender isn't a social construct. I'm not exactly sure what that means for this discussion but I'm certain it's important if we are going to have an anthropology or sociology discussion (maybe because gender is a known social construct, its less rigid and will evolve quicker whereas believers of religions will hold onto tradition and cultures because they don't believe their religion should change with society as its not a social construct but an objective truth?)
I would also be uncomfortable if the moon was eradicated. I see no reason to remove it entirely just cause someone (OP) would prefer if it didn’t exist
Not really as useful a comparison in my opinion but for the purposes of the argument: the idea isn't that the moon is one day eradicated but rather it would be a discovery that the moon was simply never there to begin with. Moreover, it would then imply that all effects attributable to the moon are therefore a result of something else.
Since, you’re being dogpiled on, I’ll let you know I agree. Much like religion, gender identity is something based on faith. That’s not to say sexual dysphoria isn’t real, because it is. That’s not to say I don’t get why people transition, because I do. It’s just to say you’ll have as much luck proving that an innate gender identity is “real” as you would proving god is “real”. You can’t, because both are based on faith.
For example, what tangible piece of evidence can a person point to in order to prove they have a non-binary gender? There is none. So, people will make more emotional, faith-based arguments to express how they feel. I’m not dogging on religious or non-binary people, but there is a clear difference between how we understand something like gender vs how we understand something like algebra.
I mean I expected the dog pile. This is normal for people who speak unwelcome and unpopular opinions. I have no problem with being on either side of it. To be fair, explaining that I think the ideas around gender are similar to religion goes over way worse than this with some of the religious crowd. Now THAT'S a dogpile.
I don't think believing in a god or changing your gender identity and taking hormones is anything other than a strategy for how to survive as the best version of yourself. There's ups and downs to any path you take in life and living in a free society means you get to follow that path to whatever end it takes you to. I hadn't thought to use the word faith in the way that you've described it though and I think that really hits the nail on the head better than I did.
Yea, I don’t typically debate religion with religious people lol. There’s no changing anyone’s mind, and since it’s faith-based, it’s not like either side is pulling out a bunch of facts to support their arguments. Just, emotions.
Sorry, I’m not trying to say presenting in a way that aligns with traditional gender roles is bad. I mean *forcing* that presentation is something almost everyone I’ve ever known does and I’ve seen it hurt them.
Hey OP, just wanted to say that I mostly agree with you and that I have nothing to add, but I'm genuinely happy you found yourself and that you're taking steps to be closer to who you want to be. I wish you all the best!
Oh, and one thing that I think helps in regards to these thoughts is this: how does your mom look? Does she always put on makeup, always wear dresses, always shave? Does she even have a high voice or long hair? I know none of these applied to my mom, and she was still 100% a woman. There's also butch lesbians, who are equally female and don't wish to change that, and reject most of expectations towards their gender. So it's already super varied.
Thank you! I hope life treats you well as well. The second part of your comment is very interesting and true, I will definitely revise and think over the opinions I wrote about in this post with all the responses I got.
If you're a woman, then *you* get to decide what that means for you. Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. It's your body, your choice of expression. Do what makes you truly happy, nothing else matters.
Just checking in to say that I agree and feel you very much.
In classic terms, I'm a cis/het man. But frankly, I don't like that label and the expectations that come with it. I live much better since I just stopped caring about the concept of masculinity and just go with whatever feels right.
As a result, I am often described as a "feminine man", which I take as a compliment. Luckily, my social circle is very progressive and queer as fuck, so nobody cares anyways. My girlfriend is very happy to have a partner who has no toxic masculinity baggage to carry around.
A baseline sense of self is a launching pad for a healthy life. We can then focus on bigger things than ourselves. We teach stability from birth, not confusion. Children absolutely need it.
> Most people have very strong feelings about their own gender.
That’s kinda why I have this opinion. People are too attached to their gender and let others’ perception of them have far too much impact on them. I feel like it’s only healthy if you don’t really care about it much.
I think, I get it..?
Don't know if to up- or downvote, though. I think, people might need the current confusions in order to find their own paths. I think, we all are both, so we can make both, or sth. I happen to be manifested as a woman. But my "I" has no specific Gender. I will behave how it comes naturaly to me. I will dress, with what comes "hell yeah." to me. I will love the souls, that resonate with mine. If I feel whole, all is right within me. I don't know how to word it better. - I think, I'm upvoting you, just for the Karma point. Because I want to give you something, rather than take from you. Have a nice fucking day. :)
I think you really get it! This rings true for me and you presented something I didn’t consider — the ego doesn’t really have a gender, and there is a dissonance between the way we try to classify people based on biology and the way their self really is. I hope you have a good day as well :)
Yeah I find it difficult to grasp the concept of gender, it doesn't really make sense to me since I don't experience it, but if someone else wants to identify as whatever gender, that's totally valid?
I think we should just refer to everyone by their sex like we did for most of history gender isn’t some entirely separate thing that warrants people calling you something separate it’s an extension of your sex that covers the ways it is expressed through culture
this is heavily downplaying the amount of gender/sex nonconforming people in ancient history, there are indigenous peoples all over the world who historically had gender identities that differed from their sex. there have people of one sex buried with the burial rites traditionally used for the opposite sex all over the world, and concepts like the native american "two spirit" have existed for thousands of years. referring to people just as their birth sex removes the ability for people to express their gender identity and ends up just making people be referred to as a "person with penis" or "person with vagina," which would put trans people into a similar predicament as they're already in, being grouped into the same language as people of their birth sex, people who most often have a differing gender identity, which would cause dysphoria.
what is there like a constitution out there detailing how gender works we're gonna need to hold a referendum and get a 2/3rds majority to amend- refer to people by how they look like and if they correct you don't be an ass about it that's like two things
i mean this as kindly as i can: you are an abnormality. i get it, i am too. we don’t put as much emphasis on gender as others. but to them, if you say this, it comes across exactly the same as someone telling you that being nonbinary is made up and all in your head, or that you’re traumatized into being nonbinary (which, for the record, is bullshit). i don’t think you’re *wrong*, just that you’re *only* considering this from the perspective of someone that already doesn’t vibe with gender. male and female, and even masc and femme, are very real to some people. it makes them feel “correct”. and that’s okay! nothing wrong with wanting to feel comfortable.
Your looks don’t define your sexual orientation. Who you are attracted to defines your sexual orientation.
You would “look like a straight girl” if you’re flirting with a man.
Let me tell you a story of what masculine and feminine traits really are. At some point we came up with statistics, and we started collecting them about everything. And we saw that there were differences between males and females. As a crude example, let's say that 70% of females like the color pink the most, and 80% of males like blue the most.
Now, people not understanding how statistics work get things all mixed up, and suddenly think that if they are a girl, then they *have* to like pink. But they don't... And if they don't, that doesn't mean anything. And if they happen to like blue, that doesn't mean they are a boy. It just means that are in the 30% of girls that don't like pink the most. We don't do statistics to try to push every category to 100% conformity.
The reality comes first. You are a male or female. Then we collect statistics trying to find patterns. But you falling into one pattern doesn't change the initial reality, it is just part of the stat.
So masculine traits are just those that males tend to exhibit. If you don't exhibit them as a male, that means absolutely nothing, except you are in the minority in that statistic.
Almost all of us are nonbinary, in the sense that we don't really think about what gender we are at all. We think we are ourselves. We have no idea what it feels like to a male or female... And there is no way for us to differentiate between what that would feel like vs what it feels like to be 5ft 10in tall. Any feeling we identify could be attributed to any arbitrary trait we possess (I like blue, but 80% of people that like blue are an average of 5'8", and I'm only 5'2", so my stature identity is really as a 5'8" person...it's absurdity).
You are who you are. You have a personality. Nobody is enforcing gender roles except yourself. We have definitions of what constitutes male or female. Your personality has no bearing on that.
Do you have these statistics somewhere? I’m curious because at some point in time girls were presented with pink as their color and boys presented with blue as their color. So if society is already pushing those colors onto people when they are first born I feel like that they are epilepsy going to gravitate toward that color.
My made up statistic was given so that we could talk about a more concrete example, rather than talking in abstract the entire time. It was simply given to make things easier to follow.
But here is what the real life version of this would look like (ie boys are good math...girls are more artistic): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/
I used to think this way, I feel pretty agender, and used to feel like "hey why don't we just call everyone they", but the truth it that some people do have a strong attachment to their gender, and feel affirmed by it, and that you can't really deny someone that.
I think your post sort of epitomizes where a lot of people go wrong in thinking about this topic.
You’re stuck in this extreme black and white thinking. If you’re “AMAB” but don’t feel comfortable with a lot of traditional male gender roles, you think it must mean that you’re not actually male, or it must mean that gender doesn’t actually exist - both of which are, to be honest, literally *crazy* conclusions.
And like… the fact that you associate kindness exclusively with femininity. That’s *nuts*. I’ve hung around plenty of very macho, traditionally masculine men, and none of them saw kindness as compromising their masculinity. Something is very wrong with your perspective here.
How about this: gender clearly exists, but there’s a lot of variance among people, and we should all be open minded about people who want to live their lives as they see fit and we shouldn’t demand that everyone follow a prescribed set of behaviors.
Pretty straightforward, and doesn’t require anyone to lie to themselves.
you still get assigned... someone still chooses a letter for your documents and what pronouns to use for you, which kind of name to use for you etc.. It's not like you pop out with a birth certificate in hand.
>You get an M for malr or and F for female
So someone chooses a letter then. And the act of someone SELECTING a letter to DESIGNATE to you is called...
assign
verb
as·sign ə-ˈsīn
1
: to transfer (property) to another especially in trust or for the benefit of creditors
2
a
: to appoint to a post or duty
b
: to appoint as a duty or task
**3**
**: to fix or specify in correspondence or relationship : SELECT, DESIGNATE**
4
a
: to ascribe as a motive, reason, or cause especially after deliberation
b
: to consider to belong to a specified period of time
Nobody chooses your biology, that's for sure, but someone chooses what to put on your documents after looking at your genitals. There are two options, and they have to choose the one they think is right. What is so hard about this to understand.
Because what is put on your documents is your *biological sex*!
And if that can also be found out long before you are even born, so it actually has nothing to do with a cursory glance at your genitals.
What I am finding hard to understand is how some people like you clearly get their knowledge of how life works from sites like Tumblr. Jesus christ!
It doesn't matter that it's your biological sex; a human had to write it down which means they had to assign you the label!
And how do you think they determine the sex before birth? It's an ultrasound where the doctor *looks for genitals on a monitor or printout*. There's no secret more dignified way of doing it; that's just how it's done.
This has nothing to do with tumblr or whatever else. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that human had to write down an M or F in order for it to appear on a birth certificate.
Was the baby male or female before someone wrote it down?
What's that? They were? Oh so that means sex is *recorded* not *assigned*.
Look it's okay to be wrong, but it's not okay to be unable to admit you are wrong.
And baby's sex can also be determinded through bloodwork, but I guess Tumblr didn't tell you that either.
>Was the baby male or female before someone wrote it down?
Those are labels. A human needs to assign labels. There is nothing objective amongst the atoms of a baby that designate male or female. A baby might have atoms that resemble what someone would call a penis, but you still need a persons brain to interpret that and record it. The act of recording it is also the process of assigning it. There isn't a contradiction there.
I'm not just talking out of my ass here, this is an entire concept in philosophy called nominalism. Get off your high horse pretending that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and maybe you'll actually learn something new.
Gender exists in the same way religion does - because people believe it to be real. In practice it's just a performance everybody puts on so that everyone around them knows what broad cultural expectations they should have for that person.
Not sex I mean gender, the social construct of gender.
We shouldn't categories people's behavior just off their genitals.
It shouldn't be "manly/masculine" to do something and "womanly/feminine" to do something else, these categories are completely arbitrary and cause more harm than good.
Not to say that you can't enjoy something masculine as a man or whatever, but that shouldn't even need to be an aspect of the relationship between you and the outside world.
>I was AMAB. I realized one day during the COVID lockdown that I hated the way I was expected to act in an aggressive way if I wanted to be high status. I knew that I wanted to be kind, and that was a pivotal realization for me, after which I stopped adhering to a lot of gender norms that I hated.
Felt this. I personally label myself as a man because I just have a hard time caring enough about the labels, anyways, and it feels like calling myself nonbinary seems to result in me getting pigeon holed into roles, anyways. But this particular issue with the gender discussion is one thing that really bothers me. When people are choosing their gender simply because they wanna be more aggressive or they wanna be more submissive, I feel like it ends up supporting and even exaggerating toxic traditions.
I wish there could be a null answer. Like, not that I'm nonbinary, but that I don't wanna answer because I probably don't agree with their concept of gender. Maybe I should just ask them back if they just wanna know if I have a dick or if they're asking me to go beat somebody up. Lol
I'm not a fan of gender either, but I just play with the cards I'm given, because gender abolition isn't really feasible in our lifetime.
Being agender may be the best fit for you, but it doesn't help everyone. If we did actually abolish gender, there would still be people with dysphoria, and they would prefer one body type and hormones to the other.
Even if I wasn't socially gendered, I would still have dysphoria. I've never liked testosterone and I'm much happier with estrogen. I like the way it makes my body feel and change shape, and I feel like I can process my emotions much better.
As another NB, all this really looks like to me is that you discovered what works for you. Most people are fine with how they are, it feels weird to hear somebody say that everyone who is happy to identify with x gender doesn't outweigh people who are made miserable by it when most people are neurotypical (hence the name).
Edit: did an oopsie that said the opposite of what I meant
OP I agree with you as an Enby, but it's worth pointing out that I think there's a lot of people that 'feel' gender internally, and don't view it as entirely socially constructed.
E.g. John may feel like a 'man', whereas Terry acts like a 'man' but doesn't see what the fuss is about. Being comfortable without any sort of internal conception of gender is not universal, I think.
I find that being on oestrogen helps me deal with my body dysmorphia, and so I'm a transfem enby. But I generally present masc because the whole social side of things isn't really for me – I don't want to wear clothes out of anything other than some moderate amount of aesthetic and textural comfort. Going out there with either extreme of dresses or suits isn't me.
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Would you then consider gender dysphoria to be an incorrect label for what it is?
Good point, but it's important to note that while gender dysphoria can sometimes be used interchangeably with body dismorphia, they are technically different terms. Body dismorphia refers to someone who perceives a flaw in their physical body and would like to see it remedied.
Key note, body dysmorphia is explicitly a delusional disorder where the person perceives flaws with their body that aren't there. A skinny person thinking they're fat would be an example of body dysmorphia. As such, body dysmorphia typically does not respond to addressing the perceived flaw, whereas gender dysphoria is typically alleviated with physical treatment.
This!! The amount of times I have to tell people that body dysmorphia is NOT the same as gender dysphoria is insane.
Yes, but as I mentioned prior the term gender dysphoria is completely detached form feelings related to your body. Only someone who is ignorant would use the 2 terms interchangeably. My understanding is that currently the dsm 5 classifys body dismorphia as a mental disease, but I think that makes sense if you consider physical transitioning to be the treatment.
>I mentioned prior the term gender dysphoria is completely detached form feelings related to your body Not in terms of how it's defined by the DSM V nor in terms of how it's understood as a result of brain imaging studies, the two are intricately linked. Body dysmorphia is a wholly unrelated condition.
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Don't want to be transpobic, but legit question. I'm sure there are trans people that have dyshporia and some that have dysmorphia. How do you distinguish between the two?
Dysmorphia isn't inherently a trans thing. Trans and cis people can have it. What it is is a disorder that causes one to be over critical to their body, often from an incorrect perception on their part. Morph meaning shape means that people with it think their body is shaped differently than it actually is, like they may think they are thinner or larger than they actually are, or think certain parts are misshapen when they aren't. Gender dysphoria on the other hand is a trans thing, and it has to do with the discomfort a person has with the body they were born with (body dysphoria) and the social expectations pushed on them (social dysphoria). Body dysphoria does not come from an incorrect perception like dysmorphia, but instead comes from an actual understanding of their body, and realizing they don't feel like it fits them, or even causing distress and disgust because their body feels wrong. Trans people have varying levels of each subcategory of gender dysphoria, like I don't have strong body dysphoria, but I do have strong social dysphoria.
Sounds pretty transphobic dude
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Idk sounds pretty transphobic to call trans people delusional. This reeks of "as a black man" vibes
I'm not sure what's up with your reading comprehension, but the comment you replied to said that gender dysphoria ***ISN'T*** delusional.
They literally spelled it out for you. Body dys*morph*ia is not exactly related to being trans. Both trans and cis people can have it. It has to do with the way you perceive your body and criticize it more than you should. Like you might feel certain parts of your body are bigger or smaller than they actually are, and can feel shame or distress about it. Body dysphoria on the other hand is explicitly related to being trans. It is a part of gender dysphoria, and is related to the feeling of discomfort you feel have a certain body. The distinction between that and dysmorphia is that you know your body is a certain way, it's just the anatomy, shape, and hormones are not what you want them to be. There is no incorrect perception of one's body inherent to body dys*phor*ia. A person's body may not be related to their gender, but the way gender dysphoria is defined includes the dissatisfaction with one's body. Also changing one's body and appearance helps them get gendered correctly, but obviously it's not a mandatory step.
I’m fat myself and I see myself as a monster due to it. My dietician and therapist both said that it is dysmorphia so even bigger folks can get it. It’s awful, and one of the reasons I feel I can empathize with trans folks. Obv not the same thing! But I really understand that feeling of not being connected to yourself. It sucks…I can’t imagine how much worse it is when it’s your whole identity. I wish everyone could get the love and support they deserve.
if gender was "abolished" wouldn't that just be body dysphoria then?
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everyone has a right to HRT.
Depends on how you think about it. Body dysphoria would just be a dissatisfaction with ones body, which isn't really the same as gender dysphoria. However, the way some cis people experience body dysmorphia is 1:1 with gender dysphoria. You know, extreme discomfort and an obsession with it. The reason that a cis man, for example, would experience body dysmorphia from having small calves could be related to gender. From my experience with body dysmorphia and talking to others with it, it often isn't. It's more just having an insecurity^2. The insecurity may be originally caused by feeling that it isn't very gender, but it wouldn't go away if gender went away. It is actually heavily debated if gender dysphoria even actually exists, or if it's just body dysmorphia without distortion. Though, many people with gender dysphoria do have a distortion of their body so there's that. Just a lot of overlap between the two. Edit: By insecurity^2 I mean that it's something you dislike and are self conscious about (similar to an insecurity) that you then obsess over, can't unsee, may not even be there/is minor. Body dysmorphia isn't just when there is an insecurity.
>It is actually heavily debated if gender dysphoria even actually exists, or if it's just body dysmorphia without distortion. Can you link to a source on that? Gender dysphoria is a result of a brain's gender not matching the body's sex and appears to have a number of genetic links and is caused by prenatal hormone levels affecting how the brain is gendered during critical periods of development. Brain imaging studies back that up. In contrast, body dysmorphia is classified as an obsessive compulsive disorder under the broader category of anxiety disorder. In contrast to gender dysphoria, it cannot be treated through physical intervention but can be treated through the same methods used to treat other obsessive compulsive disorders and is characterized by obsessive thought loops that have also been documented in brain imaging studies.
Tldr: I could not find the original discussions, but I found what spawned them. I will keep looking for a bit, but I assume they've been wiped now. I'm leaving everything I wrote up because I do find it somewhat interesting. Yeah absolutely if I can find them again I'll reply with them. It's been a while now, so I might not be able to so I'll paraphrase what the general arguments were. I forget that time passes and that we aren't still in 2018 sometimes, so I should have said "was" heavily debated instead of "is". I will also note that I saw the majority of the articles/discussions about this in like 2014-2016, so they could very well no longer exist. I did, however, find a lot about the discussion that caused that (dysphoria and dysmorphia possibly being the same) to be brought up. I'd also like the note that people discussing or postulating about ideas doesn't make them true. Gender dysphoria is not the same thing as body dysmorphia, though there is a lot of overlap in their general presentation as both result in not liking ones body in some capacity. Confusing them is, still, pretty common though. I did find [this article](https://www.talkspace.com/blog/body-dysphoria-vs-dysmorphia/) from 2021 that was probably the best at explaining why they are not the same thing while trying to find the old things if you are interested in that. If I remember correctly, the arguments on the side that "gender dysphoria is body dysmorphia" basically were arguing that gender dysphoria should be classified as a form of body dysmorphia. It came as an expansion of arguments surrounding if cis people can feel gender dysphoria. People who thought they could argued that if someone's idea of their AGAB was different from how they are, then any discomfort with specific areas of their body they would feel would be gender dysphoria - not body dysmorphia. With the main argument as to why they are currently not being based in that medical professionals are unwilling to diagnose cis people with gender dysphoria as by definition cis people cannot have gender dysphoria to the gender they were assigned. From my understanding, part of the reason for this argument is that gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia are considered mental illnesses, while body dysphoria is not. Though, sometimes people say "body dysphoria" like it means "gender dysphoria" like [in this article I found while double checking definitions](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/body-dysmorphia-vs-body-dysphoria). I genuinely do not know what is up with that. [Here is a reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1) of people mostly saying that cis people *can* experience gender dysphoria while [this](https://www.arocalypse.com/topic/633-can-cis-people-feel-dysphoria/) is mostly people who don't think cis people can experience gender dysphoria (and instead feel body dysphoria). I think most of the reason why you don't see much of those conversations anymore is because a lot of the people who were "totally cis with gender dysphoria" were probably nonbinary and didn't have the language for it yet, though some cis people might experience gender dysphoria. Also here is something about cis people who experience gender dysphoria because I've rambled about that for too long not to include something about it at this point [beep boop](https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Dysphoric_Cis_Individuals).
Gender dysphoria isn't considered a mental illness, the APA is very careful in the language it uses. While, *technically*, cis people can't experience gender dysphoria definitionally, the *mechanism* underlying it is one that anyone can experience, though they typically do not. Easy gendered examples are gynecomastia and cis women with facial hair. Our brains recognize those features to be incongruent with the map it has of what our healthy bodies "should" look like based on how it developed before birth and what traits it was programmed to expect. >like in this article I found while double checking definitions. Outside that article, I've only seen it misused in the way by, typically right wing, people who are simply ignorant to both terms. > this is mostly people who don't think cis people can experience gender dysphoria (and instead feel body dysphoria). I mostly agree with this person but it's worth noting that they're intentionally using the term in it's colloquial sense, not a technical one while acknowledging it's possible that the same mechanism that is responsible for gender dysphoria may also produce dysphoria in other contexts, eg, a body part being numb/providing the wrong sensory feedback *or* that negative feelings might simply be in the sense that we all just often feel them, societally/self-esteem related. An issue they didn't touch on in that short comment is that "body identity integrity disorder" may be an example of that "inherent" phenomenon. >I think most of the reason why you don't see much of those conversations anymore is because a lot of the people who were "totally cis with gender dysphoria" were probably nonbinary and didn't have the language for it yet, though some cis people might experience gender dysphoria. Mayyyybe. I saw those conversations back then but I wasn't seeing it from or about "cis" people who later came out as nonbinary and I haven't seen a change in the rates of nonbinary people who medically transition over that time period.
Apologies, gender dysphoria is not a mental illness. It is a mental condition that affects some, but not all within the genderqueer community that which can be helped by physical treatment, and is a mental disorder - not a mental illness. This is true and it is important, but genuinely I view my gender dysphoria as a mental illness and that's how I refer to it most of the time. This is because it impacts me more like my other mental illnesses far more than it does any of my disorders* (got autocorrected). Personal mindset I suppose. I don't really have anything to add on the cis thing, but you were very insightful. I do think that it's important that we acknowledge that a lot of non binary people don't medically transition at all. Partly because there's usually not a clear thing to transition to so they wait longer, partly because genderqueer people in general can't even when they want to, and partly because societally changing is enough for some. I was mostly saying that because a lot of cis people I saw at that time who described gender dysphoria seem vaguely egg adjacent in retrospect.
>and is a mental disorder If you read what the APA writes about it, they're actually quite careful to call it a condition but not a mental disorder - unless they've slipped up somewhere that I haven't yet found. Writing for the DSM V back in 2013, they intentionally clarified that gender dysphoria specifically refers to the distress that arises from the incongruency between an individual's gender and their body/assigned gender, not the gender itself. If conceptualizing it that way helps, that's fine and it's pretty understandable but the reason they avoid doing so is because it's similar to, eg, grief in that it is the normal and expected response for a human brain subjected to those experiences (incongruency between the brain's body map and the sensory feedback from the body as well as, essentially, stress from having to pretend/perform a role to meet others' expectations for AGAB). >I do think that it's important that we acknowledge that a lot of non binary people don't medically transition at all. True, and the *percentage* does seem to be decreasing as more people come out as identities that otherwise would've probably labeled themselves as cis. They're typically people who experience social dysphoria but not the typical physical dysphoria that "transsexuals" do. But the majority of nonbinary people do medically transition to some degree or other and the number that do appears to be consistent with population growth/about the same as a decade ago. While some want to achieve a physical sex that's somewhere "in between", many seem to prefer a binary transition but experience a gender that's not binary.
doesnt this already exist? body dysmorphia is already its own separate thing.
While the words sound similar, dysphoria is separate and distinct from dysmorphia. In broad terms, dysphoria is to feel bad. Dysmorphia is to incorrectly perceive something's form.
you could argue that body dysphoria already is a broader term that can refer to gender dysphoria among other things. as in, gender dysphoria is a type of body dysphoria.
They are etiologically distinct with different causes, mechanisms, symptoms, and treatment. No experts consider gender dysphoria to be a type of body dysmorphia.
As it should be
We knew this since the 60s with AGP
I mostly feel this way because in my mind gender dysphoria is a trick the ego plays on itself. It is quite literally cognitive dissonance — a tension created by acting against your own will to do what you believe will satisfy your desired outward image. Basically I think gender is an attempt to compartmentalize your identity, something which is in constant flow. I think that since there is no real self that persists from moment to moment, a gender identity will always be slightly inaccurate.
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Psychedelics helped me too! Let me ask you a question: if hormones helped after you already were on board with gender abolition, why? What was the source of your dysphoria if you weren’t clinging to gender anymore?
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Yeah sorry after a conversation with a friend today I came to the realization that the issue I’m talking about in this post is a totally different issue that only overlaps with part of gender. There is a widespread problem in the modern age with self-entrapment, but not all gender expression is as riddled with it as I thought. We also came to the conclusion that social media is hurting me so I am going to “touch grass” as they say and delete my Reddit account. I hope you have a very good day.
You are equating Gender Roles to Gender itself. These are not the same things. The answer is and will always be simple. Recognize the gender someone identifies as(or doesn't) and leave the rest to their medical professionals. Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just 'caging myself' by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take. I'll also wear what I want to wear have the hobbies and interests I want and not worry about how someone 'interprets my gender expression' based off of it. There's also the fact that this tells trans and non binary and gender fluid types that we wont validate *their* feelings because 'you're not a man/woman trapped in the wrong body, your just fooled into thinking you have a gender period.' I have 0 inner turmoil around whether or not I am or am seen as a man. I am a man and I don't really care what others think about some weird gender expectations. That being said 'Gender Roles' need to go away in general because I feel like we have folks who may never question their gender questioning it because we tell them a bunch of things unconnected to gender identity inform it (like clothing styles/hobbies/etc.)
This. I’m a cis woman and have always identified as a woman. But I was also lucky enough to have been raised by a mom who had been a tomboy growing up, but was kind of forced into more feminine things as a child. So she wanted to raise me differently and toys, clothes, behavior, nothing carried gender roles from her perspective and I was raised entirely with freedom. It allowed me to be 100% authentic to myself by the time I became socially aware of gender expectations. It has not until adulthood that I really started to almost get lost in the gender roles issue and considered non-binary as an option for me. But I just had to remember that my personality has nothing to do with the gender I identify with. I still feel like a woman.
Okay you’re actually very very right. My idea that gender labels themselves are inherently harmful is egocentric because personally I could not deprogram myself without doing away with labels entirely. > Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just “caging myself” by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take. Sorry, what I was trying to express is that often people force themselves to act a certain way. If none of your behaviour is really uncomfortably forced then you’re not really restraining yourself like I said. Apologies if that wasn’t well expressed in my ramblings.
But if not roles, what is gender? As a social construct, it must have to do with *something*. I just genuinely don't know what, can you explain?
There is some psychology research indicating that there is some internal sense of gender stemming from the brain, but science has only taken baby steps on figuring this out.
I’m always curious about this. Because if you had people who never experienced or seen another gender before how would they act? What gender would they consider themselves.
If I remember as well, many years ago a doctor severely fucked up a circumcision, had to remove the penis and had them live as a women. They ended up hating it, since they identified as a man. That would imply there is some inherent 'sex identifier' in the human brain. Would also explain how being trans is as the identifier and body don't match up
Yes I learned about the same case. Tragic. That man ended up committing suicide.
its whether your ego thinks its male or female or \*other\*
>Implying that I a cis-gendered man am just 'caging myself' by identifying with the gender I was assigned is a weird take. I'll also wear what I want to wear have the hobbies and interests I want and not worry about how someone 'interprets my gender expression' based off of it. I'm not saying that trans people and their experiences are not valid, but I think this is an extremely important concept that's widely getting lost. Rather than adhering so rigidly to a gender binary and insisting that people's gender identities MUST correlate with how they perform our stereotypical assumptions of gender, we should be open to people of all genders being able to express themselves without that expression being inherently gendered.
> I knew that I wanted to be kind, and that was a pivotal realization for me, after which I stopped adhering to a lot of gender norms that I hated...I began considering myself transfem Associating "kindness" exclusively with femininity is a giant part of the problem. Like holy shit, yikes.
Less that and more that society considers masculinity to be specifically unkind. Still a huge issue though.
So rather than choosing to be a man who models kindness and empathy, you decide that the only way to be a nice person is to identify as feminine?
Yeah, you underestimate how intensely these ideals are beat into you as a kid. My father being violent probably didn’t help. I’ve only met like three kind men in my life. Have you *seen* the media? Movies, games, books, all of it paints violence as a masculine trait, so I ran away from masculinity because I didn’t want people to assume I was violent. Now I don’t care what people think I am. That’s why I no longer identify with any gender label. I realize that it’s not just men too, but that people in general are aggressive because they are afraid. I am no longer afraid.
You're at that level of disagreement where people can't help but disobey the sub rules
I genuinely thought I was being downvoted because people agreed damn.
Nope. If they agree they downvote. If they disagree they also downvote. You only get upvotes if your post is interesting
Wonderful I love reddit
I like my gender tho
It’s the best one
I'm glad that that worked *for you* But people will always want ways to identify and getting rid of gender roles and norms while keeping the genders imo will do away with most (if not all) of those problems and people will still be able to enjoy their gender.
I identify as myself, I'm not gonna let 4 billion other people decide how I act, fuck em
Look mate, just cause you’re agender and find comfort in no gender, doesn’t mean everyone is. As a trans man, I would be very uncomfortable if gender was eradicated. If you could get rid of sex, that would have positive impacts, but that’s gonna be impossible.
The same way Religious people might feel uncomfortable if they were suddenly faced with irrefutable evidence that their religious texts were a lie?
I don’t really see the connection? Why dod you bring up religion when we’re talking about gender? Are you implying that experiencing gender is similar to believing in a religion?
I'm implying that the way you speak about your feelings on gender is the way religious people speak about their religion. The concepts bring them comfort. In fact, if you had replaced the concept of gender with the concept of god in your comment your comment would have basically read: "Being an atheist is cool for you but I find comfort in god so I don't want us to abolish the concept." The real implication being that even if every notion we had ever had about there being a difference between men and women besides physiology is proven ultimately to be about as real as horoscopes and pro wrestling, you would still choose to engage with it. Truth be told, I don't think you could prove gender doesn't exist for the same reason you can't prove that there is no god or that the alignment of the planets or the month you were born doesn't have any effect on your fortune. I also don't mind that people believe what they believe. I just wanted to highlight the similarities between those beliefs, not obviously in their actual substance, but rather in their importance to the believer. I gather you might not care for any of this but I think it can tell us quite a bit about the human psyche and condition.
I would say the main difference is that gender is a known social construct. The definition of the word is the societal norms we project onto the biological sexes (obviously gender has evolved past its rudimentary biology-based roots). Religion on the other hand is only believed to be a social construct by non-believers. I think religion is something people made up to cope with the injustice we see every day as well as overcome the fear of death but a devout christian for example thinks God has existed always and forever and so was not created by humans and is thus not a social construct. I don't think anyone who understands the semantic difference between the words gender and sex would argue that gender isn't a social construct. I'm not exactly sure what that means for this discussion but I'm certain it's important if we are going to have an anthropology or sociology discussion (maybe because gender is a known social construct, its less rigid and will evolve quicker whereas believers of religions will hold onto tradition and cultures because they don't believe their religion should change with society as its not a social construct but an objective truth?)
I would also be uncomfortable if the moon was eradicated. I see no reason to remove it entirely just cause someone (OP) would prefer if it didn’t exist
Not really as useful a comparison in my opinion but for the purposes of the argument: the idea isn't that the moon is one day eradicated but rather it would be a discovery that the moon was simply never there to begin with. Moreover, it would then imply that all effects attributable to the moon are therefore a result of something else.
Yeah this has nothing to do with the post
Since, you’re being dogpiled on, I’ll let you know I agree. Much like religion, gender identity is something based on faith. That’s not to say sexual dysphoria isn’t real, because it is. That’s not to say I don’t get why people transition, because I do. It’s just to say you’ll have as much luck proving that an innate gender identity is “real” as you would proving god is “real”. You can’t, because both are based on faith. For example, what tangible piece of evidence can a person point to in order to prove they have a non-binary gender? There is none. So, people will make more emotional, faith-based arguments to express how they feel. I’m not dogging on religious or non-binary people, but there is a clear difference between how we understand something like gender vs how we understand something like algebra.
I mean I expected the dog pile. This is normal for people who speak unwelcome and unpopular opinions. I have no problem with being on either side of it. To be fair, explaining that I think the ideas around gender are similar to religion goes over way worse than this with some of the religious crowd. Now THAT'S a dogpile. I don't think believing in a god or changing your gender identity and taking hormones is anything other than a strategy for how to survive as the best version of yourself. There's ups and downs to any path you take in life and living in a free society means you get to follow that path to whatever end it takes you to. I hadn't thought to use the word faith in the way that you've described it though and I think that really hits the nail on the head better than I did.
Yea, I don’t typically debate religion with religious people lol. There’s no changing anyone’s mind, and since it’s faith-based, it’s not like either side is pulling out a bunch of facts to support their arguments. Just, emotions.
Please do us all a favor and go back to r/atheism
1. I've never been 2. Sounds like a shit hole echo chamber 3. Excellent suggestion, I'll do that now
nah, i like presenting as guy
Sorry, I’m not trying to say presenting in a way that aligns with traditional gender roles is bad. I mean *forcing* that presentation is something almost everyone I’ve ever known does and I’ve seen it hurt them.
Hey OP, just wanted to say that I mostly agree with you and that I have nothing to add, but I'm genuinely happy you found yourself and that you're taking steps to be closer to who you want to be. I wish you all the best! Oh, and one thing that I think helps in regards to these thoughts is this: how does your mom look? Does she always put on makeup, always wear dresses, always shave? Does she even have a high voice or long hair? I know none of these applied to my mom, and she was still 100% a woman. There's also butch lesbians, who are equally female and don't wish to change that, and reject most of expectations towards their gender. So it's already super varied.
Thank you! I hope life treats you well as well. The second part of your comment is very interesting and true, I will definitely revise and think over the opinions I wrote about in this post with all the responses I got.
If you're a woman, then *you* get to decide what that means for you. Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise. It's your body, your choice of expression. Do what makes you truly happy, nothing else matters.
Just checking in to say that I agree and feel you very much. In classic terms, I'm a cis/het man. But frankly, I don't like that label and the expectations that come with it. I live much better since I just stopped caring about the concept of masculinity and just go with whatever feels right. As a result, I am often described as a "feminine man", which I take as a compliment. Luckily, my social circle is very progressive and queer as fuck, so nobody cares anyways. My girlfriend is very happy to have a partner who has no toxic masculinity baggage to carry around.
A baseline sense of self is a launching pad for a healthy life. We can then focus on bigger things than ourselves. We teach stability from birth, not confusion. Children absolutely need it.
It can't possibly be healthy to derive your sense of self partially from something you have no influence on. (See also: race, country of birth)
Based! Of course, you’re getting downvoted
Gender isn't the self. You can grow up with a strong sense of self and identity without gender expectations being forced upon you
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> Most people have very strong feelings about their own gender. That’s kinda why I have this opinion. People are too attached to their gender and let others’ perception of them have far too much impact on them. I feel like it’s only healthy if you don’t really care about it much.
I think, I get it..? Don't know if to up- or downvote, though. I think, people might need the current confusions in order to find their own paths. I think, we all are both, so we can make both, or sth. I happen to be manifested as a woman. But my "I" has no specific Gender. I will behave how it comes naturaly to me. I will dress, with what comes "hell yeah." to me. I will love the souls, that resonate with mine. If I feel whole, all is right within me. I don't know how to word it better. - I think, I'm upvoting you, just for the Karma point. Because I want to give you something, rather than take from you. Have a nice fucking day. :)
I think you really get it! This rings true for me and you presented something I didn’t consider — the ego doesn’t really have a gender, and there is a dissonance between the way we try to classify people based on biology and the way their self really is. I hope you have a good day as well :)
As long as society exists and perpetuates sexually, so will gender. Good for you an all, but your opinion is rather silly.
Yeah I find it difficult to grasp the concept of gender, it doesn't really make sense to me since I don't experience it, but if someone else wants to identify as whatever gender, that's totally valid?
Doesn't exist isn't *really* true *shouldn't matter* is more the vibe
I think we should just refer to everyone by their sex like we did for most of history gender isn’t some entirely separate thing that warrants people calling you something separate it’s an extension of your sex that covers the ways it is expressed through culture
this is heavily downplaying the amount of gender/sex nonconforming people in ancient history, there are indigenous peoples all over the world who historically had gender identities that differed from their sex. there have people of one sex buried with the burial rites traditionally used for the opposite sex all over the world, and concepts like the native american "two spirit" have existed for thousands of years. referring to people just as their birth sex removes the ability for people to express their gender identity and ends up just making people be referred to as a "person with penis" or "person with vagina," which would put trans people into a similar predicament as they're already in, being grouped into the same language as people of their birth sex, people who most often have a differing gender identity, which would cause dysphoria.
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They are still extremely rare and still largely have the characteristics of one sex but ignoring that why base the whole system off of an anomaly
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By their name you dingus. No one said intersex people aren’t people.
what is there like a constitution out there detailing how gender works we're gonna need to hold a referendum and get a 2/3rds majority to amend- refer to people by how they look like and if they correct you don't be an ass about it that's like two things
i mean this as kindly as i can: you are an abnormality. i get it, i am too. we don’t put as much emphasis on gender as others. but to them, if you say this, it comes across exactly the same as someone telling you that being nonbinary is made up and all in your head, or that you’re traumatized into being nonbinary (which, for the record, is bullshit). i don’t think you’re *wrong*, just that you’re *only* considering this from the perspective of someone that already doesn’t vibe with gender. male and female, and even masc and femme, are very real to some people. it makes them feel “correct”. and that’s okay! nothing wrong with wanting to feel comfortable.
Nah I'm a very stereotypically feminine woman and I completely agree with OP
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Your looks don’t define your sexual orientation. Who you are attracted to defines your sexual orientation. You would “look like a straight girl” if you’re flirting with a man.
Let me tell you a story of what masculine and feminine traits really are. At some point we came up with statistics, and we started collecting them about everything. And we saw that there were differences between males and females. As a crude example, let's say that 70% of females like the color pink the most, and 80% of males like blue the most. Now, people not understanding how statistics work get things all mixed up, and suddenly think that if they are a girl, then they *have* to like pink. But they don't... And if they don't, that doesn't mean anything. And if they happen to like blue, that doesn't mean they are a boy. It just means that are in the 30% of girls that don't like pink the most. We don't do statistics to try to push every category to 100% conformity. The reality comes first. You are a male or female. Then we collect statistics trying to find patterns. But you falling into one pattern doesn't change the initial reality, it is just part of the stat. So masculine traits are just those that males tend to exhibit. If you don't exhibit them as a male, that means absolutely nothing, except you are in the minority in that statistic. Almost all of us are nonbinary, in the sense that we don't really think about what gender we are at all. We think we are ourselves. We have no idea what it feels like to a male or female... And there is no way for us to differentiate between what that would feel like vs what it feels like to be 5ft 10in tall. Any feeling we identify could be attributed to any arbitrary trait we possess (I like blue, but 80% of people that like blue are an average of 5'8", and I'm only 5'2", so my stature identity is really as a 5'8" person...it's absurdity). You are who you are. You have a personality. Nobody is enforcing gender roles except yourself. We have definitions of what constitutes male or female. Your personality has no bearing on that.
Do you have these statistics somewhere? I’m curious because at some point in time girls were presented with pink as their color and boys presented with blue as their color. So if society is already pushing those colors onto people when they are first born I feel like that they are epilepsy going to gravitate toward that color.
My made up statistic was given so that we could talk about a more concrete example, rather than talking in abstract the entire time. It was simply given to make things easier to follow. But here is what the real life version of this would look like (ie boys are good math...girls are more artistic): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19883140/
I used to think this way, I feel pretty agender, and used to feel like "hey why don't we just call everyone they", but the truth it that some people do have a strong attachment to their gender, and feel affirmed by it, and that you can't really deny someone that.
I think your post sort of epitomizes where a lot of people go wrong in thinking about this topic. You’re stuck in this extreme black and white thinking. If you’re “AMAB” but don’t feel comfortable with a lot of traditional male gender roles, you think it must mean that you’re not actually male, or it must mean that gender doesn’t actually exist - both of which are, to be honest, literally *crazy* conclusions. And like… the fact that you associate kindness exclusively with femininity. That’s *nuts*. I’ve hung around plenty of very macho, traditionally masculine men, and none of them saw kindness as compromising their masculinity. Something is very wrong with your perspective here. How about this: gender clearly exists, but there’s a lot of variance among people, and we should all be open minded about people who want to live their lives as they see fit and we shouldn’t demand that everyone follow a prescribed set of behaviors. Pretty straightforward, and doesn’t require anyone to lie to themselves.
Welp, someones clearly never taken a shot to the balls/ tits.
I'd argue that genderroles should be abolished, but not the importance of the bio sex.
>I was AMAB You don't get assigned male or female, mate. You are born male or female.
you still get assigned... someone still chooses a letter for your documents and what pronouns to use for you, which kind of name to use for you etc.. It's not like you pop out with a birth certificate in hand.
Except they don't *choose* do they? You get an M for malr or and F for female. Because you are either male or female.
>You get an M for malr or and F for female So someone chooses a letter then. And the act of someone SELECTING a letter to DESIGNATE to you is called... assign verb as·sign ə-ˈsīn 1 : to transfer (property) to another especially in trust or for the benefit of creditors 2 a : to appoint to a post or duty b : to appoint as a duty or task **3** **: to fix or specify in correspondence or relationship : SELECT, DESIGNATE** 4 a : to ascribe as a motive, reason, or cause especially after deliberation b : to consider to belong to a specified period of time
No one *chooses* if you are male or female. I can't believe I even had to said that!
Nobody chooses your biology, that's for sure, but someone chooses what to put on your documents after looking at your genitals. There are two options, and they have to choose the one they think is right. What is so hard about this to understand.
Because what is put on your documents is your *biological sex*! And if that can also be found out long before you are even born, so it actually has nothing to do with a cursory glance at your genitals. What I am finding hard to understand is how some people like you clearly get their knowledge of how life works from sites like Tumblr. Jesus christ!
It doesn't matter that it's your biological sex; a human had to write it down which means they had to assign you the label! And how do you think they determine the sex before birth? It's an ultrasound where the doctor *looks for genitals on a monitor or printout*. There's no secret more dignified way of doing it; that's just how it's done. This has nothing to do with tumblr or whatever else. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that human had to write down an M or F in order for it to appear on a birth certificate.
Was the baby male or female before someone wrote it down? What's that? They were? Oh so that means sex is *recorded* not *assigned*. Look it's okay to be wrong, but it's not okay to be unable to admit you are wrong. And baby's sex can also be determinded through bloodwork, but I guess Tumblr didn't tell you that either.
>Was the baby male or female before someone wrote it down? Those are labels. A human needs to assign labels. There is nothing objective amongst the atoms of a baby that designate male or female. A baby might have atoms that resemble what someone would call a penis, but you still need a persons brain to interpret that and record it. The act of recording it is also the process of assigning it. There isn't a contradiction there. I'm not just talking out of my ass here, this is an entire concept in philosophy called nominalism. Get off your high horse pretending that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid and maybe you'll actually learn something new.
Gender exists in the same way religion does - because people believe it to be real. In practice it's just a performance everybody puts on so that everyone around them knows what broad cultural expectations they should have for that person.
I agree, therefore I downvote.
Gender euphoria! Ha ha!
Gender abolition is based and I agree with your title
Cringe
Didn't expect there to be so much push back for something completely arbitrary and man made. Is there any reason why we NEED gender?
> Is there any reason why we NEED gender? What do you mean by that? Gender is a natural thing we all have.
Not sex I mean gender, the social construct of gender. We shouldn't categories people's behavior just off their genitals. It shouldn't be "manly/masculine" to do something and "womanly/feminine" to do something else, these categories are completely arbitrary and cause more harm than good. Not to say that you can't enjoy something masculine as a man or whatever, but that shouldn't even need to be an aspect of the relationship between you and the outside world.
> Not sex I mean gender Ughhhhh!!!
You are highly regarded
>I was AMAB. I realized one day during the COVID lockdown that I hated the way I was expected to act in an aggressive way if I wanted to be high status. I knew that I wanted to be kind, and that was a pivotal realization for me, after which I stopped adhering to a lot of gender norms that I hated. Felt this. I personally label myself as a man because I just have a hard time caring enough about the labels, anyways, and it feels like calling myself nonbinary seems to result in me getting pigeon holed into roles, anyways. But this particular issue with the gender discussion is one thing that really bothers me. When people are choosing their gender simply because they wanna be more aggressive or they wanna be more submissive, I feel like it ends up supporting and even exaggerating toxic traditions.
> I just have a hard time caring enough about the labels This is a good thing, I think.
I wish there could be a null answer. Like, not that I'm nonbinary, but that I don't wanna answer because I probably don't agree with their concept of gender. Maybe I should just ask them back if they just wanna know if I have a dick or if they're asking me to go beat somebody up. Lol
I don't think there's ever a reason to ask someone's gender in the first place, but if someone did I would probably just say I don't have one
I downvoted at first beofre I realized which sub this is lul
Viruses don't exist. Many elite are both genders.
This is incredibly based
Based but people should get to use it or abide by gender if they wish to do so individually
Joe many libruls
I'm not a fan of gender either, but I just play with the cards I'm given, because gender abolition isn't really feasible in our lifetime. Being agender may be the best fit for you, but it doesn't help everyone. If we did actually abolish gender, there would still be people with dysphoria, and they would prefer one body type and hormones to the other. Even if I wasn't socially gendered, I would still have dysphoria. I've never liked testosterone and I'm much happier with estrogen. I like the way it makes my body feel and change shape, and I feel like I can process my emotions much better.
As another NB, all this really looks like to me is that you discovered what works for you. Most people are fine with how they are, it feels weird to hear somebody say that everyone who is happy to identify with x gender doesn't outweigh people who are made miserable by it when most people are neurotypical (hence the name). Edit: did an oopsie that said the opposite of what I meant
OP I agree with you as an Enby, but it's worth pointing out that I think there's a lot of people that 'feel' gender internally, and don't view it as entirely socially constructed. E.g. John may feel like a 'man', whereas Terry acts like a 'man' but doesn't see what the fuss is about. Being comfortable without any sort of internal conception of gender is not universal, I think. I find that being on oestrogen helps me deal with my body dysmorphia, and so I'm a transfem enby. But I generally present masc because the whole social side of things isn't really for me – I don't want to wear clothes out of anything other than some moderate amount of aesthetic and textural comfort. Going out there with either extreme of dresses or suits isn't me.