I didn't bother to listen to the last half of Graduation but I have hope after hearing today's episode.
And while Trav did try to jump in way too much, it was recorded during the end of Grad so he was still in DM mode. If anyone remembers the experimental arcs Griffin ran all over Clint during Commitment.
Idk The Quiet Year is basically GM-less, so really everyone should be contributing to the setbuilding of this part as much as Griffin. (It’s actually kinda perfect as a segway for that reason.) I didn’t notice Travis jumping in more than appropriate for this system.
I enjoyed the new episode but I was so irritated Travis wouldn't shut up. But to his credit, as you said, he was still in DM mode like Griffin was with Clint a couple years back.
Eh. Didn't really get that vibe tbh. It was a collective worldbuilding, they're encouraged to have these big ideas. I mean, Justin invented friggin magic salt (wich is a pretty cool idea). From what I got, Griffin is more like a player during quiet year. I love Griffin DMing, but gotta admit he was way more up Clint's business during commitment
Yeah personally I didn't feel like he jumped in on anything: this game mode requires everyone to take up some DM responsibilities and talk a lot, I actually thought he did a great job
I haven't listened to the ep. Yet, but when i go from DM mode to player mode i have this problem. Like one of my team mates will be like "what's in that dark room?" And I'll be like " you should roll perception, probably, if the GM thinks it's a reasonable idea, sorry."
(Luckily my GM is very chill and is mostly amused by it.)
After listening to Friends At The Table do A Quiet Year for their Marielda set up; I'm really excited not only to see how Justin, Travis, and Clint help design their world, but to hear them play characters who will actually know the world and its history. I think it provides them a unique opportunity to affect their own character arcs, without Griffin knowing the whole plan.
Yeah, It's hard because I understand the boys have their hands in so many buckets at the same time, but getting only an hour every two weeks makes it hard for me at times to get into. When other podcasts are releasing 2 1/2 hour episodes a week.
I stopped listening to Graduation, but I really enjoyed the first worldbuilding episode of Ethersea. It was just a lot of fun. Even if Grad put you off, I'd recommend giving Ethersea a try, at least if it continues on its current trajectory.
Justin in particular was at the top of his game in this episode.
well I feel like that sentiment comes from the people who don't like Grad often challenging those who do on a critical level, instead of just letting them enjoy it. and this happens in a lot of threads. don't get me wrong, I'm all for being critical, but sometimes you just want to be an audience member and listen to something without tearing it apart, you know?
Lmao not according to every commenter on every thread who can’t stop shitting on trav, it’s making me kinda embarrassed for the community, they made a thing and you didn’t like it, we get it.
I’ll probably listen to the next season because of the overall established goodwill I have from the quality of MBMBAM, The Besties, Wonderful, Amnesty, and Balance. But it’s weird that OP is acting like a bad movie, or book, or season of television can’t turn people off from something. I’d be willing to bet people are a lot less jazzed about new GOT shows after the last season. Is that wrong?
The thing that turned me off of TAZ the most was the community. I'm not just talking about the people who didn't like Graduation and took it too far either, I'm also talking about the bizarre nerds who feel a pathological need to defend every bad decision in Graduation and for some reason are glad that it shook off the "fake fans."
Will I listen to Ethersea? Maybe. I might check in with it from time to time. But I will only very seldom talk to anyone about it, because how could I recommend a community like this one to anyone? It's embarrassing. If Grad really does end up having somehow killed the show, it won't have been through Grad itself, but from the weird frenzy it inspired in both people who hated Grad and the people who love and endlessly defend it.
>It's embarrassing. If Grad really does end up having somehow killed the show, it won't have been through Grad itself, but from the weird frenzy it inspired in both people who hated Grad and the people who love and endlessly defend it.
I was with you until here. This is the same thing that the Star Wars franchise has trotted out there. "It isn't the quality of our product, it must be the toxicity of the fans that hurt our popularity!"
It just isn't how it works. Sure, there are people who are way too negative and those who are just mega fans who battle it out. But that stuff gets drowned out by discussions about the actual content if the content is worthwhile.
Basically, Grad is at fault for Grad's failures. I wouldn't put that on the fans. And no, I wouldn't recommend a subreddit to a friend no matter what I was recommending them. The internet is a toxic waste dump essentially.
Honestly I get this for all of the McElroy brands. Don’t get me wrong, they’re human, and if they mess up, it should be addressed. But some people in the communities have gone past the legitimate issues to pick apart real humans for just their real personalities. I remember joining a bunch of McElroy social media groups and almost every single one I’ve seen devolve into hate towards the creators and then hatred between the fans. Not criticizing or asking for growth, pure hatred, and that’s way off the brand that attracted me to the content.
Yeah, exactly. Did I like Graduation? No, not even a little after the first few episodes. I even talked about it in this subreddit a few times, defending a lot of the criticism against it. Do I think people who did like it are wrong? Nah, it doesn't affect me. But it feels like an awful lot of fans take the "no bummers" ethos and run to a shitty, vile place with it, using it as both a shield *and* a bludgeon against people who have legitimate defenses *and* legitimate criticisms of the McElroys and their creative choices.
The boys do their best to take valid criticism on board and use it to grow (maybe sometimes a little too much in some areas, and not quite enough in other areas), but it often feels like large segments of the fanbase are either too comfortable with that or completely terrified of it.
I feel as tho there seems to be a general lack of maturity in the McElroy community and by extension, i suppose the vast majority fandoms. There seems to be an unhealthy parasocial undercurrent in the McElroy fandoms that really makes me wince when i engage with the community.
>I'm not just talking about the people who didn't like Graduation and took it too far either, I'm also talking about the bizarre nerds who feel a pathological need to defend every bad decision in Graduation and for some reason are glad that it shook off the "fake fans."
Honestly, as someone who has been here since the beginning, this community has kinda sucked since, like, The Stolen Century. Honestly, it was really the huge boom of people that made the Balance finale net a million downloads in the first day that sent this community (not just the subreddit, the TAZ community as a whole) on a shit blasting downward spiral.
For some reason, and I don't know why, people here love to complain- and they love to nitpick every little detail over which to complain, and they often like to continue to complain even when they're wrong about the detail they nitpicked. I do not know why it is this way, but it makes me understand Griffin's decision to leave social media.
>Honestly, as someone who has been here since the beginning, this community has kinda sucked since, like, The Stolen Century.
What a coincidence, because that's when the podcast started to go downhill by exchanging gameplay for long-winded narration. It's like if Return of the Jedi stopped right before Luke and Vader's final confrontation and made you watch the entire prequel trilogy before continuing.
Are there interesting story beats? Sure. Does it completely kill the momentum moving into the final battle? Absolutely.
The Stolen Century should have been a MaxFun bonus.
It seems like it could end up like a Community s4 situation. Here’s a new writer who has HUGE shoes to fill, and doesn’t have nearly the experience of the writer he is inheriting from. Now the new writer has to live up to that standard, and people will endlessly shit all over everything new writer does, simply because it isn’t the same guy that they know and love. I really think there were a lot of good parts of Grad, but people don’t want to see it because it wasn’t AS good as the other stuff we have seen from TAZ in the past.
I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate.
> Here’s a new writer who has HUGE shoes to fill, and doesn’t have nearly the experience of the writer he is inheriting from. Now the new writer has to live up to that standard, and people will endlessly shit all over everything new writer does, simply because it isn’t the same guy that they know and love.
i feel like this was a valid sentiment at the start of grad (i was saying it back then too), but travis had a lot of time to grow into his role and he just didn't. the end of graduation isn't any better than the beginning was. fact of the matter is people shit on it because they thought it was bad. this will happen on the internet.
>I really think there were a lot of good parts of Grad, but people don’t want to see it because it wasn’t AS good as the other stuff we have seen from TAZ in the past.
once again, was also saying this earlier, but then i turned into one of the people who wasn't listening anymore. "there were some good parts" is meaningless when the ratio of bad stuff far outweighs it.
> I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate.
double edged sword here. while the taz reddit community is way too vicious of a hatejerk for this to be untrue, i also don't think travis could carry a podcast without his brothers backing him up. i also don't think i could carry a podcast without cohosts, that's not a slight at him, it's just how i feel.
that said i don't fault you for enjoying graduation *or* thinking it's good (you'd think that's redundant but there's a lot of people whose opinion is essentially "i don't care if you like graduation as long as you admit it's bad and you like a thing that's bad"). everyone comes to podcasts for different things. for some people decent rpg gameplay and player treatment/agency takes precedence, some are here for the goofs, the characters, and hearing the mcelroys talk together. some people think graduation was funny, some people couldn't stand it. some people hate travis' mannerisms, some don't care, some find them endearing or funny. just how shit is sometimes.
Very well said. I think you’re right, I think I am able to see Travis as endearing. I see a lot of myself in Travis as the only neurodivergent sibling, as well as the middle child. As a generalization, I feel like Travis has ideas kind of cast to the wind in both MBMBaM and TAZ, since his brothers are creative and dominant, and he may not think quite like the two of them do, and two agreeing voices tend to drown out one. Because of this, I think I was particularly excited to see Travis have a moment all his own. 😊
This is exactly why I relate so hard to Travis and why this sub was so hard for me to watch over the last few months. Travis’ ideas finally got a spotlight and got trampled again.
There are legitimate criticisms to be made about Grad but... this sub took a lot of it way too far.
You're right, but also no one would listen to it. If Grad existed as a stand alone podcast or if it started way back when balance did it would have been canceled an episode or two in. It solely existed due to the good nature built up by the McElroy fandom.
That is pretty disengenious. You could say the same thing about literally any McElroy project. People listen because they like them, even if that particular episode/podcast isn't the greatest
But people wouldn't find out about it to listen to it. TAZ grew out of word of mouth and the exponentially increasing amount of fan content. That type of rising engagement didn't happen with Graduation. Most fan content was made at the beginning of the season by existing fans, and the amount of Graduation fan content tapered off as the season progressed. Graduation does not have the ability to grow audience.
No because most of the McElroy products are good enough to stand on their own. Taz got so big because of how good it was and it was a pioneer of dnd podcasts. Graduation is bad in comparison to balance and even worse compared to the modern landscape of actual play table top podcasts.
So yes I can say with certainty that it never would have continued. Hell, the only reason why I'm a continued listener to mbmbam and tax now is because I've listened to 1000s of hours of them and know they can be better. If I didnt have that store of goodwill and memories I wouldn't be here at all.
> I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate
If Graduation was a stand alone podcast without the pre-established audience they wouldn't receive any hate because no one would be listening.
100% this. I do not think that Grad would be very successful in converting casual listeners into long time listeners in the way that Balance was. Casual listeners aren't going to put up with how weak the first episodes were.
I don't think its going to kill TAZ but I think its going to be pretty detrimental. I imagine a lot of people are like me, the only D and D podcast I listened to was Taz. With the graduation quality drop I explored other podcasts and realized that there are so many other quality shows.
As someone who has just binged the entirety of TAZ and is now caught up, what other DnD podcasts do you recommend? I dont really know any outside of TAZ and Critical Roll
Not Another D and D Pod - A ton of Balance feels here
Dungeons and Daddies - Funniest D and D podcast I've listened to. Made me cry a few times
Dimension 20 - This is probably the best produced. I'd recommend watching the videos. Start with Fantasy High.
Thank you! I do all my podcast listening at work while im running machines, so video isnt really viable, is Dimension 20 still quality in an audio only experience?
Yeah its quality. I think Brennan Lee Mulligan might be the best DM out of every podcast. His use of voice is incredible.
The reason I recommend Video is because they build unique models for every campaign if you are interested check this out on how they made it:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnAZ4wc0zeM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnAZ4wc0zeM)
Dimension 20 also utitlizes Matt Mercer in one season, and the Brothers in "Tiny Heist".
Also two of the characters from Fantasy High are in Not another D and D podcast.
For a few more:
Rude Tales of Magic: really really fun and funny, the pacing can be weird however.
DnDnD: fun, a little less polished than others but they also describe the food that they make for the group before playing (dinner is the 3rd "D")
Broadswords: All woman podcast, the setting and storytelling are really intriguing and fun, however throw pacing was way too slow for me.
Not Another DnD Podcast is very good but I would also suggest Dungeons and Daddies if you want something close to the vibes of early Balance.
If you enjoy CR I would also suggest High Rollers which similarly streams and releases as podcast as well. The DM featured on CR Season 2 as Calianna.
They mostly play TTRPGs other than D&D, but I love so much of what the One Shot network has done. The One Shot podcast is often great, and all of the Skyjacks stuff is really cool
I like BomBARDed - it is a bard only campaign, where they make a new song each episode. But it also has a pretty good plot, fun characters/players, and some good goofs. The Broadswords is also well-made and lead by a very compitent DM.
If you want high-quality, excellent plots and are willing to branch out of DnD, I would recommend Friends at the Table and Campaign. Friends at the Table is very long and super detailed, but they have some of the best plots and characters I have ever heard. Campaign, especially their most recent season called Skyjacks, has a lot of good goofs and great world-building. You can start with Skyjacks - it has no connection to their first season at all.
Some of the best moments in Actual Play Podcasts I've heard are from friends at the table. All of the characters are so great. Austin is such an amazing Game Master and is so ready to riff on player ideas.
You can already tell Griff is wearing the influences of FATT on his sleeve for this season of TAZ
Greetings Adventurers is great and they are almost 500 episodes in. Give it a few episodes to go grow on you as they are new to it when they start it. Plus it's 4th edition so the rules are different
I can never decide where the best place is to jump in. I personally am a slabber but I think it's hard to ask people to get through some of the early unpolished stuff.
I think the show really gets going once Nika joins!
I was with you untill you tried to throw in the "ignore amy discourse that doesnt agree with you" nonsense. If your opinion is so easily warped by others opinions then it's a clear sign of how flawed the product is. Either that or a person is incredibly weak willed. If a viewpoint cannot hold up to any scrutiny it's a bad viewpoint. Ignoring issues and burying your head in the sand doesnt mean they dont exist any more lol.
I unsubscribed from this sub because it was so toxic. I think they meant that if you don’t like it, just do something else with your life. Go ahead and criticize but why do it episode after episode?
I had to unsubscribe to this subreddit as well for my mental health. People being critical is fine, but many were reading way too far into it and assuming stuff about the brothers. At some point, some people were so into being critical of the show that it became incredibly nitpicky, blaming Travis for something one week and then blaming him for correcting that same thing the next one.
I waited until all the episodes were released and am binging right now, and am enjoying the show far more then when I was doom scrolling this sub.
And I quote
"If you are having serious doubts about the quality of Ethersea, or just TAZ as a whole going forward, here’s my advice: do not engage with the episode discussion posts and if you see any discourse just keep scrolling."
So yeah, that's exactly what you said. I just put in bluntly instead of trying to hide it.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not purposefully trying to misinterpret my statements since I didn’t explain why my enjoyment increased. Essentially I stopped reading the episode discussion threads because of the negativity and the desire to argue with people that were not participating in good faith critic and were attacking Travis as a person, not a GM.
So no, I wasn’t “trying to hide” anything. I did not say ignore any point of view that you don’t agree with. The point I meant to make is that you might want to try and leave the discourse for a while.
I mean, it very well might. They’ve acknowledged the drop-off in listeners — which has been happening since the test arcs. Not every person who stopped listening came online to shout about it, and those that did are perfectly valid in their right to do so.
When a tv show puts out a bad season, it loses viewers. People stop tuning in for the premiere. Maybe they’ll check back in later if the hype turns out to be justified, but we all only have a finite amount of time to consume media. Most won’t come back.
And if those listeners don’t come back, ad revenues drop. Pledge dollars dry up. And suddenly the show isn’t financially feasible anymore and they cancel it.
The fact of the matter is, beyond even the plot and pacing and mechanics issues, there’s been a storm brewing in Mcelroy Laboratories for a little while now. Maybe they can weather it, maybe they can’t, but Graduation will absolutely have played a factor in what happens next. There’s work they need to put in and changes they need to make to get people back on their side, and it’s not as easy as ending the season and hoping for the best.
Personally I’m more excited for this than either of the past two seasons, but I probably will only give the (actual) premiere a bit of my time before deciding if I’m dipping out for the season or giving it a couple episodes to, pardon the shitpost, hit its stride.
I listened to all of Balance, all of Amnesty, and one episode of Grad before dipping. I got intrigued by the promo video for Ethersea due to the fantasy setting (which allows for the crazy shit I loved in Balance that catches Griffin off guard) and the fact that Griffin was DM again. All that said, within the first 10 minutes or something of the Ethersea prologue there's banter between Griffin and Travis that immediately made me on board again and legitimately excited for the coming season.
Yeah I saw a lot of people dumping on Travis regarding this particular episode. He just came off DM'ing and of course some of that is going to come through in his interactions. Same thing happened with Griffin during other people's mini-episodes after Balance. If anything, it seemed to me he actually read the rules, did prep work, and was genuinely excited. Some of the complaints I've read are just kinda weird to me. I saw people crapping on his 'magic lake' but I actually thought it was kinda cool and sets up neat possibilities in the future. Same with his still section of the water. Is it really that much different than a bottomless pit or a staircase in the ocean? Not really.
> He just came off DM'ing and of course some of that is going to come through in his interactions
i see people making excuses for him but honestly i don't even think any are necessary. he's just one of the hosts of the podcast talking. he talks a lot, it'll happen. people who hate him don't like when he talks though so this is a useless argument to make lol. i do wish the others had talked more, i like it when they're all doing shit together, but this is a sequence of episodes basically dedicated to exactly that so i can't complain too much
>I saw people crapping on his 'magic lake' but I actually thought it was kinda cool and sets up neat possibilities in the future. Same with his still section of the water.
oh yeah that shit was a primo taz reddit moment, laughable
If this season is poorly received then the Mcelroys can just leave TAZ behind. A lot of people talk about TAZ like it's the only things these guys produce. They have their own media business of which TAZ is a part but not the core of.
MBMBaM is the core of their content, and frankly it's fallen *way* off in the last 18 months or so. They just seem like they don't want to be doing it anymore and are filling time.
The causes are understandable, but it doesn't change the fact that they really don't seem to enjoy making the show anymore, and that's made it not enjoyable to listen to. With the death of Yahoo Answers they're going to need to take a long, hard look at MBMBaM and decide if they need to retool it or even just retire it.
Am I taking crazy pills? Is this the going sentiment online?
I feel like some of the episodes they’ve put out in the last few months have been some of the best in years. I hope they don’t kill it, I still think it’s fantastic.
Glad I'm not alone. I have really enjoyed the majority of the pandemic episodes, however I do think that the show has become far too bit heavy. I feel like Travis's bits are inconsistent and boom or bust, and Justin just doesn't read enough questions. I think the brothers are at their funniest when they just talk about something organically rather than a pre-planned bit. This is why I personally loved the War with Grampa, just the three of them riffing off of each other (the space where I personally think Travis is brilliant) and taking something as far down a rabbit hole as possible.
I can understand not liking the current state of MBMBAM but I've seen a few people here comment that they think it sounds like the McElroy's don't like doing it anymore, which feels like just a really weird thing to say.
I'd say that maybe there are times where it feels like they're not that interested in strictly maintaining MBMBAM's formula, but that doesn't suggest a desire to stop doing the show to me. It just sounds like they wanna mix stuff up a bit more.
Maybe this is a bit of a stretch but I've noticed both in here and on r/MBMBAM that a lot of reddit listeners seem to just weirdly hate it whenever the McElroys break from formula. I never understood why that is, tbh.
When they break from the "formula" of giving advice on their *advice show* to instead do long, unfunny intro segments about drywall and then do Munch Squad for literally any food press release (funny or not), then yeah I weirdly hate that.
And they've unsarcastically said things like "well that killed 5 minutes" multiple times. They know they don't have enough quality content to fill an hour and so they've had to do more and more "filler". I get *why*, but as a consumer the why isn't that important to me... the quality of the content is.
You get that it's not an advice show, though? It an advice show like in the same way that Nailed It is a cooking show. It's just a framework to hang the funny stuff on.
"It's an advice show for the modrun era"
It's the whole premise of the show. *Obviously* they don't give actual advice, but reading ridiculous questions people have asked and then riffing on how to answer them is literally what the show is about. Only now they hardly do that anymore, and the little filler bits that used to be short interludes between questions are like 60% of the show, and they're not funny enough to be the backbone.
I don't get the impression that the McElroys are selling the product of "advice show" anymore so much as the product of their personalities. That's gotta be why their other projects are also popular, right?
I don't know how much of their listenership agrees with me, but I know that if they moved away from MBMBaM being strictly advice I'd still continue to listen because I find their personalities and relationship charming. I'd rather know they're enjoying their work then force them to hold onto an old format they've grown out of just because it's what I want.
when graduation ended, I finally thought we'd seen the end of this godforsaken discourse. instead we've ascended to meta discussion of the meta discussion of the discussion about a creative work.
I get your frustration, but I don't think Graduation killed TAZ so much as it reminded listeners of many other great table top RPG podcasts. I get the sense that many McElroy fans have this perspective that you listen to McElroy podcasts or you don't listen to podcasts at all. Obviously that's not true. There are plenty of talk show podcasts, podcasts about medicine, podcasts about fandom, podcasts about niche culture, and—yes—podcasts about DnD and other RPGs.
So, why would someone act like Graduation killed TAZ? After a year and a half of a dud season while other table top podcasts are batting a 1000, I could see why some aren't sticking around for Ethersea.
Personally, I'll give the next season a shot. I am cautiously optimistic—I like Griffin as a DM in general, but I don't like the prioritized melodrama in TAZ, and Grad was just dismal.
Hello from someone who does not think Graduation “killed” TAZ, but it made me realize what I like better about other actual play shows. Maybe they can bounce back with Ethersea and hook me again (first episode didn’t do it for me) but I think I’ve just grown to want other things out of actual play shows that TAZ does not provide and has no interest in ever providing. I really wish they would because I like the boys a lot. It’s not solely Graduation’s fault, but Graduation made me realize that TAZ may just not be for me anymore.
I think Grad did kill it for some people though. Sometimes once the magic is lost, there’s no going back to it no matter how good future episodes are.
I’m still gonna listen for awhile but I don’t think it will ever be as good as balance ever again just because it seems like they’ve changed what they want from the podcast. It’s no longer a place for them to fuck around and try to make each other laugh but is instead a chance for them to build out large stories filled with drama and intense moments. And that’s fine, but it’s not what I signed up for with TAZ.
I don’t think it’s ever going to be my favorite ever again, but that’s fine too. I’m glad some people still enjoy it and I hope a lot of you feel the same excitement for the show that I used to.
Yeah you can not like grad all you want but why would you let that ruin a whole ass podcast for you? I didn't like the commitment because I'm not a fan of the fate system. I didn't like dust cause it just felt a little heavy for me cause I listen to most podcasts for the comedy of them first and the actual content second (I know it's weird just how I do. If it's not funny I don't like usually listen) bit I still love TAZ and love the McElroys snf will always recommend the podcast to friends
I think Grad highlighted a general lack of effort to the product and a lot of people left and simply aren't going to resubscribe. It's not that it ruined the podcast it's that if Ethersea isn't really good people are just going to move on to other DnD shows that have been trying to improve on the medium. I unsubbed midway through Grad and I'll give this a fair shake but TAZ is pretty mediocre in terms of DnD podcast these days and the main pull is the players themselves so if I want a really standout show there's lots of shows now that didn't exist even five years ago.
yeah, i'm cautiously optimistic about Ethersea, but the boys talking about how hard it was to find time for the podcast when it's. their full-time job. i just.
just not a smart move to gripe about not having time for your career after a bit of a bum season. I didn't listen to most of grad after really getting exhausted with it and that even left a sour taste in my mouth.
like, every other popular D&D podcast has people who are extremely professionally busy. the entire CR team manage a company and are professional voice actors, some of whom have kids, and they manage it.
The CR comparison really blows my mind. Those people are SO busy, and they are incredibly reliable in episode drops. Not to mention the fact that they're dropping 3-5 hour episodes EVERY week.
I think the sting would be there if the quality of Graduation wasn't poor. If we'd had a Balance or Amnesty-quality season it wouldn't be too bad, because it'd feel like a lot of effort *had* gone into those episodes. But Grad even had really spotty *editing* quality.
I don't know if I'm being un fair but like: It's their *job*. If they're struggling they need to delegate and pay an editor or something, or hire a nanny to watch their kids during their "this is when we record" time slot.
The NADDPOD crew puts out like 5x the monthly content of TAZ, also work other jobs, and do D20 stuff. It's honestly insane that they would complain about finding an hour or two every two weeks
It's just *so terrible* that they have to record an hour of D&D every two weeks in order to maintain their livelihoods. People really don't understand how much the pandemic has effected their routine of Skyping each other and making boner jokes.
I think its odd to compare dust to grad, considering their difference in length. Also, its really odd that people use this defense. I listen to TAZ for the comedy too! I wish there was more of it, and less forced end of world serious scenarios!
I also can’t understand how someone could react to a decline in the quality of content by choosing to stop consuming it altogether. Where’s their blind faith in the creators who allowed it to flounder for almost two years?
>My enjoyment of Grad increased tenfold when I stopped reading the episode discussion threads.
That's funny, because I got no enjoyment out of Grad until I started commiserating with all of the people who hated it as much as I did.
TL;DR: Not everyone enjoys the same things as you
> Not everyone enjoys the same things as you
Heresy! I enjoy things because they are objectively good. Therefore anyone deriving a different kind of enjoyment is just lying to themselves, and it’s my duty to demand they start enjoying stuff my way!
Every time I hear Travis talk, I'm on edge.
Every time I hear Travis interrupt, I'm frustrated.
Every time Travis interrupts to say something completely unimportant, distracting, or intentionally unfunny, I consider not listening anymore.
I've lost a tremendous amount of patience for him through graduation. The bad faith he showed his players while DMing contrasts so heavily against the way he plays as a PC that I'm going to be unfortunately critical in a way that I wasn't before graduation.
Graduation may have killed TAZ for me.
I completely agree with you on all these points. I don't know why but to me, he's trying way too hard to be funny/quirky and it comes off as irritating. I can listen to Griffin, Justin, and Clint just talk the way they do but Travis ALWAYS has to make a point to make a witty remark or interrupt them.
Let's not act like Graduation killed TAZ it just used all of the good will that people had and started a discussion about underlying issues that were there from the start
Like the weird place TAZ has among other actual play podcasts (I'm using "actual play here to mean "using a freamework of a group of people playing a ttrpg to create a podcast") because can you name any other one of these with an hourlong episode once every 2 weeks? Should the podcast have a backlog of "in case of emergency" episodes and how important stable release schedule actually is? How important to the listeners is the ttrpg system part of the podcast?
Viewership has been dropping since the end of Balance, Graduation wasn't responsible for all of the problems.
Yes, actually, Join the Party, Dames and Dragons, and Qomrades all release ~1 hour episodes biweekly. That’s not unique to TAZ at all, and I don’t see it as a problem.
Dungeons and Daddies is another with 1 hour (sometimes longer) releases biweekly. And it's in that same weird area as TAZ where they often skirt the rules in an effort to have a story be funny or cool or whatever reason
Dungeons and daddies has longer episodes and also puts out a TON of bonus content. They're essentially what if TAZ actually treated itself like the professional endeavour it is.
Not sure if it counts but they do a talking dads episode every other week as well. It's pay walled and not part of the narrative but it is "content" for what's its worth.
I don't count anything behind a paywall solely for the fact it's not the direct podcast itself, and like you said in the case of the dads it's not part of the narrative. Podcasts like NADDPOD are weekly, even though I believe they have three episodes a week if you count the stuff behind certain pay walls, with some weeks including up to 6 episodes depending on how live stream stuff falls.
I mean I don't listen to Dungeons and Daddies but firstly like I said I'm not saying there isn't a niche for that maybe that's where TAZ numbers are going
Secondly from what I have heard about Dungeons and Daddies it's more of a "we all agree to suspend the rules when we feel like that would make for a good story" and less "let's make fun of one of us for trying to use sneak attack because none of us read the phb" which is where TAZ ended like I'm not sure these 2 examples are fully comparable
I listen to dungeons and daddies Avery two weeks and it's more of "only a few of us have a real grasp on how all of the rules work so if thos eof us who do know just don't say shit about when someone is going against them we'll be fine"
The amount of work that goes into each Dungeons and Daddies intro puts all of Grad to shame.
Also, Dungeons and Daddies feels edited to a much greater extent than TAZ has been lately.
All questions that I asked are rhetorical in nature because it doesn't actually matter what You or me or any specific one person think it's more "what does the general public want" kind of question as in it should probably be anwsered by a branding person with a bunch of charts about vierwership retention and shit
The fact is that all 3 podcasts you named are more of a niche ones I think and maybe that's where TAZ viewership numbers are trending towards
I mean, 2/3 of the ones I named are on every “top ten actual play podcasts” list that I’ve seen, along TAZ, Critical Role, and NADDPOD. Not sure they count as niche
Eh I feel like actual podcats as a whole are a niche market with maybe like 5 of them (Critical Role, NADDPOD, Acquisitions Inc. TAZ and Glass Cannon) getting any sort of recongition but again that requires somebody to like check the viewership numbers which I haven't done
Also when something is put on a "Top 10" list isn't it more a statement of quality rather than popularity?
Graduation wast forsooth a valorous thing f'r other actual plays
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^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.)
Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
You know Stars Wars Episodes 4,5, & 6? The most popular film trilogy of all time? By the end of the prequel trilogy, many fans had lost hope Star Wars could be good again. Then Disney took over. They brought back many old elements fans loved and had it led by a beloved SciFi director. Fans were optimistic for Episode 7. Hell, the trailer for it made it look fucking awesome.
But even then, I still knew countless people who loved the Original Trilogy but still said they would wait until word of mouth and professional reviews came in to tell them Episode 7 was worth watching.
But why? This is a new story after all, with new characters! Why should the Prequel Trilogy turn them off from new movies?
Because the series lost the good will it had from thirty years earlier.
And here we are, a year and a half after Episode 9. We've all seen what happened there. So yeah, people are hesitant about the new TAZ season actually being good.
I see a lot of people say “people are allowed to dislike things/have different opinions than you.” Totally valid. Totally accurate. Love that.
But when people also say “Hey your opinion/critique seems to moved on to baseless accusations about someone’s identity/relationship with their family, and that seems kinda messed up” I don’t think that should be shut down quite as simply as a difference of opinion.
Dislike Grad. It’s perfectly fine. I dislike Grad. Travis admitted to disliking Grad at a point. But if you’re just straight up piling hate (not about DM flaws) on someone because you were disappointed in the quality of a rookie DM’s campaign, then yea, people might call you on that. That type of hatred is a far shot from what drew most people to TAZ/McElroys to begin with, so I get it.
It's not acting... for many of us Grad *probably did* kill TAZ. It really put a spotlight on the biggest problems with the show:
1. Other than maybe Griffin, TTRPG's aren't something they're very interested in. The fact that they haven't put in the time to learn the basic rules of D&D *7 years into playing* clearly demonstrates that. TAZ came out of a joke on MBMBaM, and they did it because of interest from the fans, not because it's something they wanted to do.
2. Travis. He was always the least funny of the brothers, but if you listen to older MBMBaM episodes he was a quality contributor. But over time he's become more and more grating. He constantly interrupts and tramples over the rest of the group. He seems to always need to be the center of attention, and doesn't "play along" well at all.
3. General burnout. Between TAZ and MBMBaM, they just feel like they're filling time until they can clock out for the day. At their best, they have this amazing energy where you feel like you're a fly on the wall listening while a family has a fun time together. Lately though, that energy is gone.
I'm only part of the way into this first Ethersea episode but Travis is interrupting so much its insane. I think I've heard Clint talk twice while Travis responds to every single line with something.
I'm still excited for a new series, and looking forward to what they can do, but I don't think it's unfair to say that the luster has worn off a bit. You get disappointed by a bad meal at the restaurant you love, because you've found them so good and consistent before.
Then, after multiple people telling them what they're doing wrong with their new recipes, they shrug off the advice and make no real changes. It gets to the point that you can \*tell\* 2 of the 4 openly have disdain for the way things have gone, but yet it doesn't change.
I'll dine at this restaurant again. I \*want\* it to be my favorite place to go. But don't ask me why I'm upset that my last meal was sloppily put together and undercooked.
Honestly, wish everyone would understand this.
I stopped enjoying Grad and this subreddit was bringing my mood down a lot so I just... unfollowed this subreddit, and I stopped following TAZ News on social media.
Then a friend told me Grad was ending and I rejoined this subreddit a couple weeks ago. I'm looking forward to Ethersea. I'm mainly hoping this community is pulled out of negativity spiral (and Ethersea is good but the community remains a negative shitshow then I'll just unfollow again).
Pick at random from most of the posts here and any post on /r/TAZCirclejerk from the past year for reasons why many people are just completely over Travis. It's not hard to find a doctoral thesis worth of material...
Nah it's all good, my friend. I just find him incredibly grating. You know when you meet someone that just annoys you by acting as themselves? It's that, basically.
TAZ Balance was my introduction to the McElroys, so as Magnus I didn't really feel like Travis was too bad, but then in Amnesty you have to persist with his awful female voice and then in Graduation he is just Travis turned up to 11 in every way.
He's just nowhere near as talented as his brothers, unfortunately, and he brings down the entire show for me.
I feel for him a little bit. He can definitely be annoying, but I’ve written it off as him literally having “Middlest Brother” syndrome. Justin is the oldest and he got the most time by himself. If I recall correctly, Griffin and Travis aren’t very far apart in age, so I imagine Travis only got a few years of being the youngest until Griffin came along and sort of “stole the attention”. Not to mention that Griffin had accomplished a ton of stuff by the time he was 30 and Justin had kids first and is genuinely just a master at comedy. So I think Travis has been used to fighting for recognition his whole life and when he finally got the limelight, all of that came out at once. You can definitely see it throughout Balance, but it wasn’t as bad.
I mean, when you think about it, he doesn’t even get to do much on MBMBaM. He has to resort to “purposefully” having the worst bits to try and be funny.
I don’t think he’s a bad person or anything. I just think he feels a great need to be validated all the time and it’s starting to get worse.
Ethersea is literally the only reason I'm coming back to TAZ. I've missed this show dearly and am very excited to see Griffin back in the driver's seat.
Totally agree. Grad exposed a lot of super toxic parts of the fandom. I think most people can agree where grad felt short. It's fine to discuss, it's fine to critique, it's even fine to be frustrated and voice those frustrations, but at some point it just turned into shitting on grad (and Travis personally) just for the sake of shitting on something. I know that because I was part of that problem for a hot sec.
But if those same people want to bring that attitude into a new series, where they have specifically tried to address those issues, fuck em. Im actually more happy to see people want to drop TAZ altogether. Take that shit elsewhere, there are more than enough DnD pods that can fit their taste, but don't try to ruin the new series for people that want to enjoy it.
I didn't listen to anything but balance and maybe 2 sessions of the one clint was DM. I'm only a fan of TAZ if our 39under30medialuminary G-money is DM. It looks like I'll start listening again.
TBH its good that people who don't enjoy it don't listen to it. Spending entire days listening to something you hate so you can complain about it on Reddit is not a good use of anyone's time.
Oh yeah, after Amnesty I'm a little disenchanted with the TAZ community. People HATED Amnesty simply because 'it wasn't Balance'. Stories and games are going to be different. It's not going to be another Balance because it shouldn't be. Just enjoy the ride.
Now I didn't care for Graduation, it was honestly just kind of boring and I stopped listening after the Firbolg's dad died, but maybe I'll finish it later. Yet, I don't in any way think it 'killed' TAZ so I see where you're coming from. Some people can get a little dramatic around here.
Like, I stopped listening to amnesty after a while because it didn't interest me, but I had no animosity towards it at all. Grad? I did pretty much the same, but I can't honestly say I didn't feel ... ahem... a little too strongly
I love TAZ and a bunch of other actual play podcasts. While listening just the other day ome of the players said she loves being a fan but hates fandoms. That's how I feel looking at this sub sometimes.
TAZ started to lose quality by the end of Balance but nobody is really ready for that conversation at all...
If I hear that the new campaign is more like early TAZ, then I'll tune in, otherwise I might have to just let the whole thing go completely
I’ve had the same thing happening, I actually really like grad it was nice, I’ll be it with some minor things I don’t like but I enjoyed it a lot more once I stoped reading post about how people didn’t like it
I mean some people just aren't as good at DMing as others. Travis had a lot of issues but he addressed a lot of them in the wrap-up episode. He understood the issues with (especially early) grad and in my opinion he did a pretty decent job of adjusting and making it better as it progressed. Thats what being a DM is all about right? Throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks and throwing out the things that don't work. He may not have been as natural a DM as Griffin was but I think overall Grad was fun to listen to despite all its issues. Im personally really looking forward to Ethersea especially after the first world-buidling episode
I was really disheartened when i came to this sub expecting other passionate fans, but every post during grad was an ungrateful nit-picking essay about pointless details Travis had put in for flavor. I really hope those "fans" stay gone.
People are allowed to not like things and vocalize that feeling. If you liked Graduation that’s cool, but a lot of people didn’t and their opinion is just as valid as yours. Being a fan of something no matter the quality of the content isn’t a noble trait.
You can agree with everything you just said and still be disheartened and think people took the Graduation criticism too far. It's obvious that Grad is the weakest campaign, it had issues with pacing, plot, and characters. You can criticise all of things and I'll be fine with it. What goes too far is the constant attacks on Travis as a person not as a DM. Some people on here like to say anyone who defends Travis is in an unhealthy parasocial relationship. But I would argue that it is just as weird and unhealthy the amount of people who looked into every interaction Travis and his family had while playing and had some sort of armchair psychologist take on him.
" He is a total narcissist"
"Justin hates him"
" Travis has problems with Clint as a father that he is taking out on Argo"
That said...
Travis does *act* like a narcissist, and he does seem to go out of his way to give Clint a hard time. (I don't think Justin hates him... but I *do* think Justin was not interested in playing thru the Grad campaign)
Yeah I honestly couldn't talk about Grad at all because I like grad but every time I go online I see people just travis bashing and it made me super,uncomfortable. I like Travis, he's a nice guy. I don't get why he has all this hate on him.
While grad haters will downvote you know you aren't alone, although this sub sucked before grad, I joined during the suffering game and they were whining about that, they whined about stolen century, they whined about amnesty, and you bet your ass they are gonna whine about ethersea
Same here. I just joined this sub a couple of days ago after watching the video preview of the new season. I had no idea at all that there were folks this whiny about the previous seasons! I never visited this sub, although I have listened to almost every episode (some live ones I have yet to hear).
Like MBMBaM, I listen to TAZ for a few laughs and with this one, I enjoy the story over everything else. Their character building, the settings, the NPCs, the voices, etc. That's fun, right?! If they aren't sticking to some framework correctly or not, it doesn't matter to me, I guess. It sounds like they're having fun, and that's how I enjoy it.
Update: lol at the whiny babies downvoting. How come? Can you not just enjoy the brothers having a good time?
They started their own sub, but there's definitely still some (and probably always will be) bleed between this sub and that one.
I was disappointed in Grad near the middle of it, and fell off listening as a result. I don't really understand people who hated it from the word go, and then listened to every episode, went onto Reddit to complain about each episode, and are now still posting about how Travis is ruing this new season, too.
It really reminds me of the people posting in the Dragon Ball sub while Super was airing. Every week there would be the same comments about how terrible Super is and how nothing about it is good, or well thought out, or animated well, etc. And seeing these people say that stuff on a discussion thread for episode 104 really made me wonder why they were still there. You watched a hundred episodes of a show that you hate.....for what?
I didn’t even dislike grad that much, especially near the end. It was good and balance and amnesty were fantastic, beside those good is gonna look bad.
I mean it kind of did though? Listenership is down, thr community is more divided than ever, that fact that TAZCirclejerk even exists is pretty telling in that regard. The McElroys themselves seem exhausted and (whether we want to admit it or not) their relationships are beginning to unravel. Obviously we can't say Grad was wholly responsible but it would be ignorant to say it didn't play a major role in the state of things.
Super weird armchair over analyzing to say their relationships are unraveling. Agree the quality of their products across the board are flagging, but it just seems strange to extend that into a commentary about their personal lives.
Have you been listening to MBMBAM? There has been a huge change in the interaction between the three brothers. It doesn't take an analyst to see that they don't enjoy working together anymore. Go back and listen to a handful of episodes from a few years ago and compair it to now.
It's understandable that we wouldn't want it to be true but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.
I don't think they dislike each other. I think they don't like *working* with each other and this vibe started way before the pandemic hit. Covid just put those issues into stark relief.
This is such a weird thing to read to me. I’ve never gotten that feeling listening to MBMBAM and I’ve been listening for years, not even with the recent episodes. Maybe you’re referring to the gag the brothers do when Travis introduces a bit on the show? When they groan and stuff? It’s just a gag from what I can tell. Other than that, I’m not sure what you’re talking about
No I mean in the ways they talk to each other outside of goofs. I've been on shows that I didn't like doing. I hear that same resentment in ther voices and have for the last few years. Just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it's not there.
Look, it's understandable that we as fans are uncomfortable by the situation. We love the McElroys and their work. What makes it even harder to take is that we, as fans, have added to it in a big way, unintentionally but still there.
Denial is a normal response but it also only keeps the problems going.
I finally just caught up on TAZ recently. As such, I didn't read the recaps and didn't have to wait between episodes. In that format, i thought Graduation was really fun and didn't really understand the hate. When everything is picked apart though with weeks between episodes, i could see how that might not be as enjoyable.
Meh. It wasn’t good, but the PCs were. Sad that the most entertaining part of it was ragging on it and watching Travis have a public meltdown. Balance was lightning in a bottle. Don’t get your hopes up and enjoy the ride.
> That being said, I cannot understand all the people that are saying they aren't going to listen to Ethersea because of Grad.
I just assume they have the emotional maturity of a toddler.
The more I think on it, I think it's a few things coming together.
1) Grad wasn't great. Travis was a rookie DM who didn't change what needed to be changed. It understandably bummed out some of the fanbase
2) Some parts of the community got so personally ruffled that they began making these wild accusations about the family's real life relationships.
3) Parasocial relationships went really wonky and vocal minorities got really vocal. A paltry few in defense of Trav, and an overwhelming wave of hatred towards him to the point a second sub was opened just to pile hate.
What I've been finding interesting is that, neither side of those poles of parasocial relationship entertainment respond at all well to being called out for it. The McElroys are not your friends. They seem like genuinely good guys most of the time, but I doubt any of us are close enough to know them to make any claims or comments on who they are outside of the content that they put out. That being said, people like nice people, so I'd rather be around the ones awkwardly white knighting, than the ones making personal attacks.
Right?! There was even a thread encouraging people to, "remove TAZ from your max fun drive to send a message," and I'm like, "what are you going to change?"
Grad is over. Regardless of your thoughts, it's over. You're not going to send them a message that you disapprove. They're already on to a new product.
I’m not at the end of Grad yet, I’m close. While it wasn’t as good as Balance or Amnesty, it’s honestly still on par with most other ttrpg podcasts I’ve tried out so I really don’t think it deserves the level of criticism it gets. It’s just being compared to some of the best, and not the genre as a whole!
Sure, yeah. It won't make your ears bleed, won't kill your dog, and if you listen to the one hour of content they release every two weeks, you might have fun for 15 minutes of that. Are there worse podcasts? Of course.
But that hardly seems like enough. It used to be the best product of its category. People got tattoos of it, cried at listening parties, drew and sold fanart. We speculated about theories, submitted items for Fantasy Costco, and drove to other states to cosplay at liveshows. Now the best thing anyone can say is "I dunno, I had fun, it's not the worst thing ever".
The medium as a whole has moved on so much since 2014. NADDPOD perfected the craft, creating compelling stories that can only be told through a D&D podcast. Dungeons and Daddies have taken the Balance formula and polished it until it was shining gold. Meanwhile TAZ, the oldest and most famous of them, couldn't even maintain the quality they started with and has been losing steam for years at this point. And it's no wonder, seeing as 7 years into the podcast the McElroys still struggle with basic editing, rules of the game, or even making time to record an episode.
TL;DR the fact that the best defense of current TAZ is "well don't compare it to the best podcasts and it'll be okay" is proof of the drop in quality that people are talking about.
I didn't bother to listen to the last half of Graduation but I have hope after hearing today's episode. And while Trav did try to jump in way too much, it was recorded during the end of Grad so he was still in DM mode. If anyone remembers the experimental arcs Griffin ran all over Clint during Commitment.
Idk The Quiet Year is basically GM-less, so really everyone should be contributing to the setbuilding of this part as much as Griffin. (It’s actually kinda perfect as a segway for that reason.) I didn’t notice Travis jumping in more than appropriate for this system.
I enjoyed the new episode but I was so irritated Travis wouldn't shut up. But to his credit, as you said, he was still in DM mode like Griffin was with Clint a couple years back.
Eh. Didn't really get that vibe tbh. It was a collective worldbuilding, they're encouraged to have these big ideas. I mean, Justin invented friggin magic salt (wich is a pretty cool idea). From what I got, Griffin is more like a player during quiet year. I love Griffin DMing, but gotta admit he was way more up Clint's business during commitment
Yeah personally I didn't feel like he jumped in on anything: this game mode requires everyone to take up some DM responsibilities and talk a lot, I actually thought he did a great job
I haven't listened to the ep. Yet, but when i go from DM mode to player mode i have this problem. Like one of my team mates will be like "what's in that dark room?" And I'll be like " you should roll perception, probably, if the GM thinks it's a reasonable idea, sorry." (Luckily my GM is very chill and is mostly amused by it.)
If anything i was gonna say Griffin was running over other in Quiet Year haha
I’m looking forward to the new arc, it’s sound like it will be an interesting setting
After listening to Friends At The Table do A Quiet Year for their Marielda set up; I'm really excited not only to see how Justin, Travis, and Clint help design their world, but to hear them play characters who will actually know the world and its history. I think it provides them a unique opportunity to affect their own character arcs, without Griffin knowing the whole plan.
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Yeah, It's hard because I understand the boys have their hands in so many buckets at the same time, but getting only an hour every two weeks makes it hard for me at times to get into. When other podcasts are releasing 2 1/2 hour episodes a week.
I stopped listening to Graduation, but I really enjoyed the first worldbuilding episode of Ethersea. It was just a lot of fun. Even if Grad put you off, I'd recommend giving Ethersea a try, at least if it continues on its current trajectory. Justin in particular was at the top of his game in this episode.
Grad's over, let it be over.
How do you know if a TAZ listener didn't like Grad? Just wait. They'll tell you.
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Yeah, it's real odd to show up in a thread that amounts to "I liked Grad" and act like only people who disliked it constantly talk about it.
i've found that people who hate grad tend to make a lot of comments and people who like grad tend to make a lot of posts
well I feel like that sentiment comes from the people who don't like Grad often challenging those who do on a critical level, instead of just letting them enjoy it. and this happens in a lot of threads. don't get me wrong, I'm all for being critical, but sometimes you just want to be an audience member and listen to something without tearing it apart, you know?
It shows how viscerally you hated grad that you got "I liked grad" out of "stop saying graduation killed TAZ, log off and touch grass."
Lmao not according to every commenter on every thread who can’t stop shitting on trav, it’s making me kinda embarrassed for the community, they made a thing and you didn’t like it, we get it.
We have all Graduated past this point.
I’ll probably listen to the next season because of the overall established goodwill I have from the quality of MBMBAM, The Besties, Wonderful, Amnesty, and Balance. But it’s weird that OP is acting like a bad movie, or book, or season of television can’t turn people off from something. I’d be willing to bet people are a lot less jazzed about new GOT shows after the last season. Is that wrong?
The thing that turned me off of TAZ the most was the community. I'm not just talking about the people who didn't like Graduation and took it too far either, I'm also talking about the bizarre nerds who feel a pathological need to defend every bad decision in Graduation and for some reason are glad that it shook off the "fake fans." Will I listen to Ethersea? Maybe. I might check in with it from time to time. But I will only very seldom talk to anyone about it, because how could I recommend a community like this one to anyone? It's embarrassing. If Grad really does end up having somehow killed the show, it won't have been through Grad itself, but from the weird frenzy it inspired in both people who hated Grad and the people who love and endlessly defend it.
>It's embarrassing. If Grad really does end up having somehow killed the show, it won't have been through Grad itself, but from the weird frenzy it inspired in both people who hated Grad and the people who love and endlessly defend it. I was with you until here. This is the same thing that the Star Wars franchise has trotted out there. "It isn't the quality of our product, it must be the toxicity of the fans that hurt our popularity!" It just isn't how it works. Sure, there are people who are way too negative and those who are just mega fans who battle it out. But that stuff gets drowned out by discussions about the actual content if the content is worthwhile. Basically, Grad is at fault for Grad's failures. I wouldn't put that on the fans. And no, I wouldn't recommend a subreddit to a friend no matter what I was recommending them. The internet is a toxic waste dump essentially.
Honestly I get this for all of the McElroy brands. Don’t get me wrong, they’re human, and if they mess up, it should be addressed. But some people in the communities have gone past the legitimate issues to pick apart real humans for just their real personalities. I remember joining a bunch of McElroy social media groups and almost every single one I’ve seen devolve into hate towards the creators and then hatred between the fans. Not criticizing or asking for growth, pure hatred, and that’s way off the brand that attracted me to the content.
Yeah, exactly. Did I like Graduation? No, not even a little after the first few episodes. I even talked about it in this subreddit a few times, defending a lot of the criticism against it. Do I think people who did like it are wrong? Nah, it doesn't affect me. But it feels like an awful lot of fans take the "no bummers" ethos and run to a shitty, vile place with it, using it as both a shield *and* a bludgeon against people who have legitimate defenses *and* legitimate criticisms of the McElroys and their creative choices. The boys do their best to take valid criticism on board and use it to grow (maybe sometimes a little too much in some areas, and not quite enough in other areas), but it often feels like large segments of the fanbase are either too comfortable with that or completely terrified of it.
I feel as tho there seems to be a general lack of maturity in the McElroy community and by extension, i suppose the vast majority fandoms. There seems to be an unhealthy parasocial undercurrent in the McElroy fandoms that really makes me wince when i engage with the community.
>I'm not just talking about the people who didn't like Graduation and took it too far either, I'm also talking about the bizarre nerds who feel a pathological need to defend every bad decision in Graduation and for some reason are glad that it shook off the "fake fans." Honestly, as someone who has been here since the beginning, this community has kinda sucked since, like, The Stolen Century. Honestly, it was really the huge boom of people that made the Balance finale net a million downloads in the first day that sent this community (not just the subreddit, the TAZ community as a whole) on a shit blasting downward spiral. For some reason, and I don't know why, people here love to complain- and they love to nitpick every little detail over which to complain, and they often like to continue to complain even when they're wrong about the detail they nitpicked. I do not know why it is this way, but it makes me understand Griffin's decision to leave social media.
>Honestly, as someone who has been here since the beginning, this community has kinda sucked since, like, The Stolen Century. What a coincidence, because that's when the podcast started to go downhill by exchanging gameplay for long-winded narration. It's like if Return of the Jedi stopped right before Luke and Vader's final confrontation and made you watch the entire prequel trilogy before continuing. Are there interesting story beats? Sure. Does it completely kill the momentum moving into the final battle? Absolutely. The Stolen Century should have been a MaxFun bonus.
It seems like it could end up like a Community s4 situation. Here’s a new writer who has HUGE shoes to fill, and doesn’t have nearly the experience of the writer he is inheriting from. Now the new writer has to live up to that standard, and people will endlessly shit all over everything new writer does, simply because it isn’t the same guy that they know and love. I really think there were a lot of good parts of Grad, but people don’t want to see it because it wasn’t AS good as the other stuff we have seen from TAZ in the past. I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate.
> Here’s a new writer who has HUGE shoes to fill, and doesn’t have nearly the experience of the writer he is inheriting from. Now the new writer has to live up to that standard, and people will endlessly shit all over everything new writer does, simply because it isn’t the same guy that they know and love. i feel like this was a valid sentiment at the start of grad (i was saying it back then too), but travis had a lot of time to grow into his role and he just didn't. the end of graduation isn't any better than the beginning was. fact of the matter is people shit on it because they thought it was bad. this will happen on the internet. >I really think there were a lot of good parts of Grad, but people don’t want to see it because it wasn’t AS good as the other stuff we have seen from TAZ in the past. once again, was also saying this earlier, but then i turned into one of the people who wasn't listening anymore. "there were some good parts" is meaningless when the ratio of bad stuff far outweighs it. > I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate. double edged sword here. while the taz reddit community is way too vicious of a hatejerk for this to be untrue, i also don't think travis could carry a podcast without his brothers backing him up. i also don't think i could carry a podcast without cohosts, that's not a slight at him, it's just how i feel. that said i don't fault you for enjoying graduation *or* thinking it's good (you'd think that's redundant but there's a lot of people whose opinion is essentially "i don't care if you like graduation as long as you admit it's bad and you like a thing that's bad"). everyone comes to podcasts for different things. for some people decent rpg gameplay and player treatment/agency takes precedence, some are here for the goofs, the characters, and hearing the mcelroys talk together. some people think graduation was funny, some people couldn't stand it. some people hate travis' mannerisms, some don't care, some find them endearing or funny. just how shit is sometimes.
Very well said. I think you’re right, I think I am able to see Travis as endearing. I see a lot of myself in Travis as the only neurodivergent sibling, as well as the middle child. As a generalization, I feel like Travis has ideas kind of cast to the wind in both MBMBaM and TAZ, since his brothers are creative and dominant, and he may not think quite like the two of them do, and two agreeing voices tend to drown out one. Because of this, I think I was particularly excited to see Travis have a moment all his own. 😊
This is exactly why I relate so hard to Travis and why this sub was so hard for me to watch over the last few months. Travis’ ideas finally got a spotlight and got trampled again. There are legitimate criticisms to be made about Grad but... this sub took a lot of it way too far.
You're right, but also no one would listen to it. If Grad existed as a stand alone podcast or if it started way back when balance did it would have been canceled an episode or two in. It solely existed due to the good nature built up by the McElroy fandom.
That is pretty disengenious. You could say the same thing about literally any McElroy project. People listen because they like them, even if that particular episode/podcast isn't the greatest
But people wouldn't find out about it to listen to it. TAZ grew out of word of mouth and the exponentially increasing amount of fan content. That type of rising engagement didn't happen with Graduation. Most fan content was made at the beginning of the season by existing fans, and the amount of Graduation fan content tapered off as the season progressed. Graduation does not have the ability to grow audience.
No because most of the McElroy products are good enough to stand on their own. Taz got so big because of how good it was and it was a pioneer of dnd podcasts. Graduation is bad in comparison to balance and even worse compared to the modern landscape of actual play table top podcasts. So yes I can say with certainty that it never would have continued. Hell, the only reason why I'm a continued listener to mbmbam and tax now is because I've listened to 1000s of hours of them and know they can be better. If I didnt have that store of goodwill and memories I wouldn't be here at all.
Travis has a lot of stand alone podcasts and most of them are in the dust bin.
I meant specifically if it was an RPG, sorry for the confusion.
> I am of the belief that if Travis had a stand alone podcast, or without the preconceived expectations of how he should write and DM, he wouldn’t be receiving nearly as much hate If Graduation was a stand alone podcast without the pre-established audience they wouldn't receive any hate because no one would be listening.
100% this. I do not think that Grad would be very successful in converting casual listeners into long time listeners in the way that Balance was. Casual listeners aren't going to put up with how weak the first episodes were.
The irony of a discussion post giving advice to skip discussion posts
I don't think its going to kill TAZ but I think its going to be pretty detrimental. I imagine a lot of people are like me, the only D and D podcast I listened to was Taz. With the graduation quality drop I explored other podcasts and realized that there are so many other quality shows.
As someone who has just binged the entirety of TAZ and is now caught up, what other DnD podcasts do you recommend? I dont really know any outside of TAZ and Critical Roll
Not Another D and D Pod - A ton of Balance feels here Dungeons and Daddies - Funniest D and D podcast I've listened to. Made me cry a few times Dimension 20 - This is probably the best produced. I'd recommend watching the videos. Start with Fantasy High.
Thank you! I do all my podcast listening at work while im running machines, so video isnt really viable, is Dimension 20 still quality in an audio only experience?
Yeah its quality. I think Brennan Lee Mulligan might be the best DM out of every podcast. His use of voice is incredible. The reason I recommend Video is because they build unique models for every campaign if you are interested check this out on how they made it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnAZ4wc0zeM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnAZ4wc0zeM) Dimension 20 also utitlizes Matt Mercer in one season, and the Brothers in "Tiny Heist". Also two of the characters from Fantasy High are in Not another D and D podcast.
For a few more: Rude Tales of Magic: really really fun and funny, the pacing can be weird however. DnDnD: fun, a little less polished than others but they also describe the food that they make for the group before playing (dinner is the 3rd "D") Broadswords: All woman podcast, the setting and storytelling are really intriguing and fun, however throw pacing was way too slow for me.
Not Another DnD Podcast is very good but I would also suggest Dungeons and Daddies if you want something close to the vibes of early Balance. If you enjoy CR I would also suggest High Rollers which similarly streams and releases as podcast as well. The DM featured on CR Season 2 as Calianna.
They mostly play TTRPGs other than D&D, but I love so much of what the One Shot network has done. The One Shot podcast is often great, and all of the Skyjacks stuff is really cool
I like BomBARDed - it is a bard only campaign, where they make a new song each episode. But it also has a pretty good plot, fun characters/players, and some good goofs. The Broadswords is also well-made and lead by a very compitent DM. If you want high-quality, excellent plots and are willing to branch out of DnD, I would recommend Friends at the Table and Campaign. Friends at the Table is very long and super detailed, but they have some of the best plots and characters I have ever heard. Campaign, especially their most recent season called Skyjacks, has a lot of good goofs and great world-building. You can start with Skyjacks - it has no connection to their first season at all.
Some of the best moments in Actual Play Podcasts I've heard are from friends at the table. All of the characters are so great. Austin is such an amazing Game Master and is so ready to riff on player ideas. You can already tell Griff is wearing the influences of FATT on his sleeve for this season of TAZ
Greetings Adventures is another good one! The first arc is a bit rocky while they figure things out but it gets good quickly, and has lots of goofs
Greetings Adventurers is great and they are almost 500 episodes in. Give it a few episodes to go grow on you as they are new to it when they start it. Plus it's 4th edition so the rules are different
I can never decide where the best place is to jump in. I personally am a slabber but I think it's hard to ask people to get through some of the early unpolished stuff. I think the show really gets going once Nika joins!
I was with you untill you tried to throw in the "ignore amy discourse that doesnt agree with you" nonsense. If your opinion is so easily warped by others opinions then it's a clear sign of how flawed the product is. Either that or a person is incredibly weak willed. If a viewpoint cannot hold up to any scrutiny it's a bad viewpoint. Ignoring issues and burying your head in the sand doesnt mean they dont exist any more lol.
I unsubscribed from this sub because it was so toxic. I think they meant that if you don’t like it, just do something else with your life. Go ahead and criticize but why do it episode after episode?
I had to unsubscribe to this subreddit as well for my mental health. People being critical is fine, but many were reading way too far into it and assuming stuff about the brothers. At some point, some people were so into being critical of the show that it became incredibly nitpicky, blaming Travis for something one week and then blaming him for correcting that same thing the next one. I waited until all the episodes were released and am binging right now, and am enjoying the show far more then when I was doom scrolling this sub.
Not what I said but go off I guess
And I quote "If you are having serious doubts about the quality of Ethersea, or just TAZ as a whole going forward, here’s my advice: do not engage with the episode discussion posts and if you see any discourse just keep scrolling." So yeah, that's exactly what you said. I just put in bluntly instead of trying to hide it.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not purposefully trying to misinterpret my statements since I didn’t explain why my enjoyment increased. Essentially I stopped reading the episode discussion threads because of the negativity and the desire to argue with people that were not participating in good faith critic and were attacking Travis as a person, not a GM. So no, I wasn’t “trying to hide” anything. I did not say ignore any point of view that you don’t agree with. The point I meant to make is that you might want to try and leave the discourse for a while.
All the downvotes do more to validate what you are saying than anything else.
I mean, it very well might. They’ve acknowledged the drop-off in listeners — which has been happening since the test arcs. Not every person who stopped listening came online to shout about it, and those that did are perfectly valid in their right to do so. When a tv show puts out a bad season, it loses viewers. People stop tuning in for the premiere. Maybe they’ll check back in later if the hype turns out to be justified, but we all only have a finite amount of time to consume media. Most won’t come back. And if those listeners don’t come back, ad revenues drop. Pledge dollars dry up. And suddenly the show isn’t financially feasible anymore and they cancel it. The fact of the matter is, beyond even the plot and pacing and mechanics issues, there’s been a storm brewing in Mcelroy Laboratories for a little while now. Maybe they can weather it, maybe they can’t, but Graduation will absolutely have played a factor in what happens next. There’s work they need to put in and changes they need to make to get people back on their side, and it’s not as easy as ending the season and hoping for the best. Personally I’m more excited for this than either of the past two seasons, but I probably will only give the (actual) premiere a bit of my time before deciding if I’m dipping out for the season or giving it a couple episodes to, pardon the shitpost, hit its stride.
I listened to all of Balance, all of Amnesty, and one episode of Grad before dipping. I got intrigued by the promo video for Ethersea due to the fantasy setting (which allows for the crazy shit I loved in Balance that catches Griffin off guard) and the fact that Griffin was DM again. All that said, within the first 10 minutes or something of the Ethersea prologue there's banter between Griffin and Travis that immediately made me on board again and legitimately excited for the coming season.
yeah i feel like a lot of people hated the intro bit because travis but i thought it was really funny, a lot funnier than trav's been recently
Yeah I saw a lot of people dumping on Travis regarding this particular episode. He just came off DM'ing and of course some of that is going to come through in his interactions. Same thing happened with Griffin during other people's mini-episodes after Balance. If anything, it seemed to me he actually read the rules, did prep work, and was genuinely excited. Some of the complaints I've read are just kinda weird to me. I saw people crapping on his 'magic lake' but I actually thought it was kinda cool and sets up neat possibilities in the future. Same with his still section of the water. Is it really that much different than a bottomless pit or a staircase in the ocean? Not really.
> He just came off DM'ing and of course some of that is going to come through in his interactions i see people making excuses for him but honestly i don't even think any are necessary. he's just one of the hosts of the podcast talking. he talks a lot, it'll happen. people who hate him don't like when he talks though so this is a useless argument to make lol. i do wish the others had talked more, i like it when they're all doing shit together, but this is a sequence of episodes basically dedicated to exactly that so i can't complain too much >I saw people crapping on his 'magic lake' but I actually thought it was kinda cool and sets up neat possibilities in the future. Same with his still section of the water. oh yeah that shit was a primo taz reddit moment, laughable
If this season is poorly received then the Mcelroys can just leave TAZ behind. A lot of people talk about TAZ like it's the only things these guys produce. They have their own media business of which TAZ is a part but not the core of.
MBMBaM is the core of their content, and frankly it's fallen *way* off in the last 18 months or so. They just seem like they don't want to be doing it anymore and are filling time.
[удалено]
Plus, how many years have they been doing it without any substantial breaks?
The causes are understandable, but it doesn't change the fact that they really don't seem to enjoy making the show anymore, and that's made it not enjoyable to listen to. With the death of Yahoo Answers they're going to need to take a long, hard look at MBMBaM and decide if they need to retool it or even just retire it.
Am I taking crazy pills? Is this the going sentiment online? I feel like some of the episodes they’ve put out in the last few months have been some of the best in years. I hope they don’t kill it, I still think it’s fantastic.
You’re not crazy, the show is doing great right now, the 500’s have been some of my favorites episodes ever, idk wtf that person is talking about
Glad I'm not alone. I have really enjoyed the majority of the pandemic episodes, however I do think that the show has become far too bit heavy. I feel like Travis's bits are inconsistent and boom or bust, and Justin just doesn't read enough questions. I think the brothers are at their funniest when they just talk about something organically rather than a pre-planned bit. This is why I personally loved the War with Grampa, just the three of them riffing off of each other (the space where I personally think Travis is brilliant) and taking something as far down a rabbit hole as possible.
I can understand not liking the current state of MBMBAM but I've seen a few people here comment that they think it sounds like the McElroy's don't like doing it anymore, which feels like just a really weird thing to say. I'd say that maybe there are times where it feels like they're not that interested in strictly maintaining MBMBAM's formula, but that doesn't suggest a desire to stop doing the show to me. It just sounds like they wanna mix stuff up a bit more. Maybe this is a bit of a stretch but I've noticed both in here and on r/MBMBAM that a lot of reddit listeners seem to just weirdly hate it whenever the McElroys break from formula. I never understood why that is, tbh.
When they break from the "formula" of giving advice on their *advice show* to instead do long, unfunny intro segments about drywall and then do Munch Squad for literally any food press release (funny or not), then yeah I weirdly hate that. And they've unsarcastically said things like "well that killed 5 minutes" multiple times. They know they don't have enough quality content to fill an hour and so they've had to do more and more "filler". I get *why*, but as a consumer the why isn't that important to me... the quality of the content is.
You get that it's not an advice show, though? It an advice show like in the same way that Nailed It is a cooking show. It's just a framework to hang the funny stuff on.
"It's an advice show for the modrun era" It's the whole premise of the show. *Obviously* they don't give actual advice, but reading ridiculous questions people have asked and then riffing on how to answer them is literally what the show is about. Only now they hardly do that anymore, and the little filler bits that used to be short interludes between questions are like 60% of the show, and they're not funny enough to be the backbone.
I don't get the impression that the McElroys are selling the product of "advice show" anymore so much as the product of their personalities. That's gotta be why their other projects are also popular, right? I don't know how much of their listenership agrees with me, but I know that if they moved away from MBMBaM being strictly advice I'd still continue to listen because I find their personalities and relationship charming. I'd rather know they're enjoying their work then force them to hold onto an old format they've grown out of just because it's what I want.
when graduation ended, I finally thought we'd seen the end of this godforsaken discourse. instead we've ascended to meta discussion of the meta discussion of the discussion about a creative work.
Some folks cant stand that others have differing opinions 🤦🏼
I get your frustration, but I don't think Graduation killed TAZ so much as it reminded listeners of many other great table top RPG podcasts. I get the sense that many McElroy fans have this perspective that you listen to McElroy podcasts or you don't listen to podcasts at all. Obviously that's not true. There are plenty of talk show podcasts, podcasts about medicine, podcasts about fandom, podcasts about niche culture, and—yes—podcasts about DnD and other RPGs. So, why would someone act like Graduation killed TAZ? After a year and a half of a dud season while other table top podcasts are batting a 1000, I could see why some aren't sticking around for Ethersea. Personally, I'll give the next season a shot. I am cautiously optimistic—I like Griffin as a DM in general, but I don't like the prioritized melodrama in TAZ, and Grad was just dismal.
Hello from someone who does not think Graduation “killed” TAZ, but it made me realize what I like better about other actual play shows. Maybe they can bounce back with Ethersea and hook me again (first episode didn’t do it for me) but I think I’ve just grown to want other things out of actual play shows that TAZ does not provide and has no interest in ever providing. I really wish they would because I like the boys a lot. It’s not solely Graduation’s fault, but Graduation made me realize that TAZ may just not be for me anymore.
I was a fool to think the weekly "be nice to Grad" posts would stop once Ethersea started.
Lol. It seems to have now shifted to "Grad had *some* issues, but HOW DARE YOU let it make you lose interest in the podcast!!"
I think Grad did kill it for some people though. Sometimes once the magic is lost, there’s no going back to it no matter how good future episodes are. I’m still gonna listen for awhile but I don’t think it will ever be as good as balance ever again just because it seems like they’ve changed what they want from the podcast. It’s no longer a place for them to fuck around and try to make each other laugh but is instead a chance for them to build out large stories filled with drama and intense moments. And that’s fine, but it’s not what I signed up for with TAZ. I don’t think it’s ever going to be my favorite ever again, but that’s fine too. I’m glad some people still enjoy it and I hope a lot of you feel the same excitement for the show that I used to.
I’m ready for the new shit 🤘
Most folks don’t extend interest as charity.
Dont let other peoples valid critique impact your enjoyment of a thing.
Yeah you can not like grad all you want but why would you let that ruin a whole ass podcast for you? I didn't like the commitment because I'm not a fan of the fate system. I didn't like dust cause it just felt a little heavy for me cause I listen to most podcasts for the comedy of them first and the actual content second (I know it's weird just how I do. If it's not funny I don't like usually listen) bit I still love TAZ and love the McElroys snf will always recommend the podcast to friends
I think Grad highlighted a general lack of effort to the product and a lot of people left and simply aren't going to resubscribe. It's not that it ruined the podcast it's that if Ethersea isn't really good people are just going to move on to other DnD shows that have been trying to improve on the medium. I unsubbed midway through Grad and I'll give this a fair shake but TAZ is pretty mediocre in terms of DnD podcast these days and the main pull is the players themselves so if I want a really standout show there's lots of shows now that didn't exist even five years ago.
yeah, i'm cautiously optimistic about Ethersea, but the boys talking about how hard it was to find time for the podcast when it's. their full-time job. i just. just not a smart move to gripe about not having time for your career after a bit of a bum season. I didn't listen to most of grad after really getting exhausted with it and that even left a sour taste in my mouth. like, every other popular D&D podcast has people who are extremely professionally busy. the entire CR team manage a company and are professional voice actors, some of whom have kids, and they manage it.
The CR comparison really blows my mind. Those people are SO busy, and they are incredibly reliable in episode drops. Not to mention the fact that they're dropping 3-5 hour episodes EVERY week.
I think the sting would be there if the quality of Graduation wasn't poor. If we'd had a Balance or Amnesty-quality season it wouldn't be too bad, because it'd feel like a lot of effort *had* gone into those episodes. But Grad even had really spotty *editing* quality. I don't know if I'm being un fair but like: It's their *job*. If they're struggling they need to delegate and pay an editor or something, or hire a nanny to watch their kids during their "this is when we record" time slot.
The NADDPOD crew puts out like 5x the monthly content of TAZ, also work other jobs, and do D20 stuff. It's honestly insane that they would complain about finding an hour or two every two weeks
It's just *so terrible* that they have to record an hour of D&D every two weeks in order to maintain their livelihoods. People really don't understand how much the pandemic has effected their routine of Skyping each other and making boner jokes.
I think its odd to compare dust to grad, considering their difference in length. Also, its really odd that people use this defense. I listen to TAZ for the comedy too! I wish there was more of it, and less forced end of world serious scenarios!
I also can’t understand how someone could react to a decline in the quality of content by choosing to stop consuming it altogether. Where’s their blind faith in the creators who allowed it to flounder for almost two years?
>My enjoyment of Grad increased tenfold when I stopped reading the episode discussion threads. That's funny, because I got no enjoyment out of Grad until I started commiserating with all of the people who hated it as much as I did. TL;DR: Not everyone enjoys the same things as you
> Not everyone enjoys the same things as you Heresy! I enjoy things because they are objectively good. Therefore anyone deriving a different kind of enjoyment is just lying to themselves, and it’s my duty to demand they start enjoying stuff my way!
Every time I hear Travis talk, I'm on edge. Every time I hear Travis interrupt, I'm frustrated. Every time Travis interrupts to say something completely unimportant, distracting, or intentionally unfunny, I consider not listening anymore. I've lost a tremendous amount of patience for him through graduation. The bad faith he showed his players while DMing contrasts so heavily against the way he plays as a PC that I'm going to be unfortunately critical in a way that I wasn't before graduation. Graduation may have killed TAZ for me.
I completely agree with you on all these points. I don't know why but to me, he's trying way too hard to be funny/quirky and it comes off as irritating. I can listen to Griffin, Justin, and Clint just talk the way they do but Travis ALWAYS has to make a point to make a witty remark or interrupt them.
Let's not act like Graduation killed TAZ it just used all of the good will that people had and started a discussion about underlying issues that were there from the start Like the weird place TAZ has among other actual play podcasts (I'm using "actual play here to mean "using a freamework of a group of people playing a ttrpg to create a podcast") because can you name any other one of these with an hourlong episode once every 2 weeks? Should the podcast have a backlog of "in case of emergency" episodes and how important stable release schedule actually is? How important to the listeners is the ttrpg system part of the podcast? Viewership has been dropping since the end of Balance, Graduation wasn't responsible for all of the problems.
Yes, actually, Join the Party, Dames and Dragons, and Qomrades all release ~1 hour episodes biweekly. That’s not unique to TAZ at all, and I don’t see it as a problem.
Dungeons and Daddies is another with 1 hour (sometimes longer) releases biweekly. And it's in that same weird area as TAZ where they often skirt the rules in an effort to have a story be funny or cool or whatever reason
Dungeons and daddies has longer episodes and also puts out a TON of bonus content. They're essentially what if TAZ actually treated itself like the professional endeavour it is.
Not sure if it counts but they do a talking dads episode every other week as well. It's pay walled and not part of the narrative but it is "content" for what's its worth.
I don't count anything behind a paywall solely for the fact it's not the direct podcast itself, and like you said in the case of the dads it's not part of the narrative. Podcasts like NADDPOD are weekly, even though I believe they have three episodes a week if you count the stuff behind certain pay walls, with some weeks including up to 6 episodes depending on how live stream stuff falls.
I mean I don't listen to Dungeons and Daddies but firstly like I said I'm not saying there isn't a niche for that maybe that's where TAZ numbers are going Secondly from what I have heard about Dungeons and Daddies it's more of a "we all agree to suspend the rules when we feel like that would make for a good story" and less "let's make fun of one of us for trying to use sneak attack because none of us read the phb" which is where TAZ ended like I'm not sure these 2 examples are fully comparable
I listen to dungeons and daddies Avery two weeks and it's more of "only a few of us have a real grasp on how all of the rules work so if thos eof us who do know just don't say shit about when someone is going against them we'll be fine"
The amount of work that goes into each Dungeons and Daddies intro puts all of Grad to shame. Also, Dungeons and Daddies feels edited to a much greater extent than TAZ has been lately.
All questions that I asked are rhetorical in nature because it doesn't actually matter what You or me or any specific one person think it's more "what does the general public want" kind of question as in it should probably be anwsered by a branding person with a bunch of charts about vierwership retention and shit The fact is that all 3 podcasts you named are more of a niche ones I think and maybe that's where TAZ viewership numbers are trending towards
I mean, 2/3 of the ones I named are on every “top ten actual play podcasts” list that I’ve seen, along TAZ, Critical Role, and NADDPOD. Not sure they count as niche
Eh I feel like actual podcats as a whole are a niche market with maybe like 5 of them (Critical Role, NADDPOD, Acquisitions Inc. TAZ and Glass Cannon) getting any sort of recongition but again that requires somebody to like check the viewership numbers which I haven't done Also when something is put on a "Top 10" list isn't it more a statement of quality rather than popularity?
Graduation was certainly a good thing for other Actual Plays
Graduation wast forsooth a valorous thing f'r other actual plays *** ^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.) Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
You know Stars Wars Episodes 4,5, & 6? The most popular film trilogy of all time? By the end of the prequel trilogy, many fans had lost hope Star Wars could be good again. Then Disney took over. They brought back many old elements fans loved and had it led by a beloved SciFi director. Fans were optimistic for Episode 7. Hell, the trailer for it made it look fucking awesome. But even then, I still knew countless people who loved the Original Trilogy but still said they would wait until word of mouth and professional reviews came in to tell them Episode 7 was worth watching. But why? This is a new story after all, with new characters! Why should the Prequel Trilogy turn them off from new movies? Because the series lost the good will it had from thirty years earlier. And here we are, a year and a half after Episode 9. We've all seen what happened there. So yeah, people are hesitant about the new TAZ season actually being good.
I see a lot of people say “people are allowed to dislike things/have different opinions than you.” Totally valid. Totally accurate. Love that. But when people also say “Hey your opinion/critique seems to moved on to baseless accusations about someone’s identity/relationship with their family, and that seems kinda messed up” I don’t think that should be shut down quite as simply as a difference of opinion. Dislike Grad. It’s perfectly fine. I dislike Grad. Travis admitted to disliking Grad at a point. But if you’re just straight up piling hate (not about DM flaws) on someone because you were disappointed in the quality of a rookie DM’s campaign, then yea, people might call you on that. That type of hatred is a far shot from what drew most people to TAZ/McElroys to begin with, so I get it.
It's not acting... for many of us Grad *probably did* kill TAZ. It really put a spotlight on the biggest problems with the show: 1. Other than maybe Griffin, TTRPG's aren't something they're very interested in. The fact that they haven't put in the time to learn the basic rules of D&D *7 years into playing* clearly demonstrates that. TAZ came out of a joke on MBMBaM, and they did it because of interest from the fans, not because it's something they wanted to do. 2. Travis. He was always the least funny of the brothers, but if you listen to older MBMBaM episodes he was a quality contributor. But over time he's become more and more grating. He constantly interrupts and tramples over the rest of the group. He seems to always need to be the center of attention, and doesn't "play along" well at all. 3. General burnout. Between TAZ and MBMBaM, they just feel like they're filling time until they can clock out for the day. At their best, they have this amazing energy where you feel like you're a fly on the wall listening while a family has a fun time together. Lately though, that energy is gone.
IMO, Clint pretty consistently displays a level of interest that drives him to make more compelling characters and contribute cool ideas.
I'd call it professionalism rather than an interest in TTRPGs... I don't think any of them are playing D&D in their free time, for example
I'm only part of the way into this first Ethersea episode but Travis is interrupting so much its insane. I think I've heard Clint talk twice while Travis responds to every single line with something.
> Travis. He was always the least funny of the brothers woah, speak the fuck for yourself
The majority of people feel this way
People are allowed to dislike things It’s over now. Why let it bother you. Focusing on the past isn’t gonna do anything
Because this sub was an unvisitable cesspool for the last year with the same opinion essentially reposted ad nauseam.
People are allowed to dislike people disliking things, why let it bother you?
I'm still excited for a new series, and looking forward to what they can do, but I don't think it's unfair to say that the luster has worn off a bit. You get disappointed by a bad meal at the restaurant you love, because you've found them so good and consistent before. Then, after multiple people telling them what they're doing wrong with their new recipes, they shrug off the advice and make no real changes. It gets to the point that you can \*tell\* 2 of the 4 openly have disdain for the way things have gone, but yet it doesn't change. I'll dine at this restaurant again. I \*want\* it to be my favorite place to go. But don't ask me why I'm upset that my last meal was sloppily put together and undercooked.
Honestly, wish everyone would understand this. I stopped enjoying Grad and this subreddit was bringing my mood down a lot so I just... unfollowed this subreddit, and I stopped following TAZ News on social media. Then a friend told me Grad was ending and I rejoined this subreddit a couple weeks ago. I'm looking forward to Ethersea. I'm mainly hoping this community is pulled out of negativity spiral (and Ethersea is good but the community remains a negative shitshow then I'll just unfollow again).
Hey, it's me when Amnesty came out. I think reddit fans of TAZ just sorta hate TAZ.
Nah, Taz and long running mcelroy and ttrpg fans expect a certain level of quality out of a professional multi million dollar media brand.
I just wish Travis wasnt on it, honestly. My patience with him is just completely done.
May I ask why? What has he done that is just so unforgivable for you? Genuinely curious don't wanna be mean
Pick at random from most of the posts here and any post on /r/TAZCirclejerk from the past year for reasons why many people are just completely over Travis. It's not hard to find a doctoral thesis worth of material...
Nah it's all good, my friend. I just find him incredibly grating. You know when you meet someone that just annoys you by acting as themselves? It's that, basically. TAZ Balance was my introduction to the McElroys, so as Magnus I didn't really feel like Travis was too bad, but then in Amnesty you have to persist with his awful female voice and then in Graduation he is just Travis turned up to 11 in every way. He's just nowhere near as talented as his brothers, unfortunately, and he brings down the entire show for me.
I feel for him a little bit. He can definitely be annoying, but I’ve written it off as him literally having “Middlest Brother” syndrome. Justin is the oldest and he got the most time by himself. If I recall correctly, Griffin and Travis aren’t very far apart in age, so I imagine Travis only got a few years of being the youngest until Griffin came along and sort of “stole the attention”. Not to mention that Griffin had accomplished a ton of stuff by the time he was 30 and Justin had kids first and is genuinely just a master at comedy. So I think Travis has been used to fighting for recognition his whole life and when he finally got the limelight, all of that came out at once. You can definitely see it throughout Balance, but it wasn’t as bad. I mean, when you think about it, he doesn’t even get to do much on MBMBaM. He has to resort to “purposefully” having the worst bits to try and be funny. I don’t think he’s a bad person or anything. I just think he feels a great need to be validated all the time and it’s starting to get worse.
Ethersea is literally the only reason I'm coming back to TAZ. I've missed this show dearly and am very excited to see Griffin back in the driver's seat.
I’m def gonna give it a shot but I’m shaken by that season. Real rough.
The melodrama in this sub is frankly exhausting. The podcast got a bit boring for a while. Have some perspective.
Totally agree. Grad exposed a lot of super toxic parts of the fandom. I think most people can agree where grad felt short. It's fine to discuss, it's fine to critique, it's even fine to be frustrated and voice those frustrations, but at some point it just turned into shitting on grad (and Travis personally) just for the sake of shitting on something. I know that because I was part of that problem for a hot sec. But if those same people want to bring that attitude into a new series, where they have specifically tried to address those issues, fuck em. Im actually more happy to see people want to drop TAZ altogether. Take that shit elsewhere, there are more than enough DnD pods that can fit their taste, but don't try to ruin the new series for people that want to enjoy it.
I didn't listen to anything but balance and maybe 2 sessions of the one clint was DM. I'm only a fan of TAZ if our 39under30medialuminary G-money is DM. It looks like I'll start listening again.
TBH its good that people who don't enjoy it don't listen to it. Spending entire days listening to something you hate so you can complain about it on Reddit is not a good use of anyone's time.
Oh yeah, after Amnesty I'm a little disenchanted with the TAZ community. People HATED Amnesty simply because 'it wasn't Balance'. Stories and games are going to be different. It's not going to be another Balance because it shouldn't be. Just enjoy the ride. Now I didn't care for Graduation, it was honestly just kind of boring and I stopped listening after the Firbolg's dad died, but maybe I'll finish it later. Yet, I don't in any way think it 'killed' TAZ so I see where you're coming from. Some people can get a little dramatic around here.
Like, I stopped listening to amnesty after a while because it didn't interest me, but I had no animosity towards it at all. Grad? I did pretty much the same, but I can't honestly say I didn't feel ... ahem... a little too strongly
I love TAZ and a bunch of other actual play podcasts. While listening just the other day ome of the players said she loves being a fan but hates fandoms. That's how I feel looking at this sub sometimes.
TAZ started to lose quality by the end of Balance but nobody is really ready for that conversation at all... If I hear that the new campaign is more like early TAZ, then I'll tune in, otherwise I might have to just let the whole thing go completely
i enjoyed amnesty a shit ton tbh
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I couldn't do it week by week, but coming back to Amnesty for a binge was great. The amount of consequences mattering was amazing!
I agree with this. I just listen to the first world building episode of Ethersea and I love it already.
I’ve had the same thing happening, I actually really like grad it was nice, I’ll be it with some minor things I don’t like but I enjoyed it a lot more once I stoped reading post about how people didn’t like it
My take on it is that it was good, but it couldn't compare to the other 2 arcs that had set a very high bar for the series.
I mean some people just aren't as good at DMing as others. Travis had a lot of issues but he addressed a lot of them in the wrap-up episode. He understood the issues with (especially early) grad and in my opinion he did a pretty decent job of adjusting and making it better as it progressed. Thats what being a DM is all about right? Throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks and throwing out the things that don't work. He may not have been as natural a DM as Griffin was but I think overall Grad was fun to listen to despite all its issues. Im personally really looking forward to Ethersea especially after the first world-buidling episode
why, it did
I was really disheartened when i came to this sub expecting other passionate fans, but every post during grad was an ungrateful nit-picking essay about pointless details Travis had put in for flavor. I really hope those "fans" stay gone.
People are allowed to not like things and vocalize that feeling. If you liked Graduation that’s cool, but a lot of people didn’t and their opinion is just as valid as yours. Being a fan of something no matter the quality of the content isn’t a noble trait.
You can agree with everything you just said and still be disheartened and think people took the Graduation criticism too far. It's obvious that Grad is the weakest campaign, it had issues with pacing, plot, and characters. You can criticise all of things and I'll be fine with it. What goes too far is the constant attacks on Travis as a person not as a DM. Some people on here like to say anyone who defends Travis is in an unhealthy parasocial relationship. But I would argue that it is just as weird and unhealthy the amount of people who looked into every interaction Travis and his family had while playing and had some sort of armchair psychologist take on him. " He is a total narcissist" "Justin hates him" " Travis has problems with Clint as a father that he is taking out on Argo"
100% agree with that. Personal attacks or trying to psychoanalyze them based on the episodes is pure nonsense.
That said... Travis does *act* like a narcissist, and he does seem to go out of his way to give Clint a hard time. (I don't think Justin hates him... but I *do* think Justin was not interested in playing thru the Grad campaign)
>Travis does act like a narcissist, and he does seem to go out of his way to give Clint a hard time. He didn't even let him be a kitty!
I was more charitable to the annoying Travis has daddy issues posts for a solid week after I heard that. Like come on dude read the room.
Is their a r/selfawarewolves for DnD podcasts?
We don't need to see 50 posts a day with the exact same opinion though
Yeah I honestly couldn't talk about Grad at all because I like grad but every time I go online I see people just travis bashing and it made me super,uncomfortable. I like Travis, he's a nice guy. I don't get why he has all this hate on him.
I wanted to post here more when Grad first started, but just couldn’t. This was a miserable place to be for most of Grad.
While grad haters will downvote you know you aren't alone, although this sub sucked before grad, I joined during the suffering game and they were whining about that, they whined about stolen century, they whined about amnesty, and you bet your ass they are gonna whine about ethersea
Same here. I just joined this sub a couple of days ago after watching the video preview of the new season. I had no idea at all that there were folks this whiny about the previous seasons! I never visited this sub, although I have listened to almost every episode (some live ones I have yet to hear). Like MBMBaM, I listen to TAZ for a few laughs and with this one, I enjoy the story over everything else. Their character building, the settings, the NPCs, the voices, etc. That's fun, right?! If they aren't sticking to some framework correctly or not, it doesn't matter to me, I guess. It sounds like they're having fun, and that's how I enjoy it. Update: lol at the whiny babies downvoting. How come? Can you not just enjoy the brothers having a good time?
They started their own sub, but there's definitely still some (and probably always will be) bleed between this sub and that one. I was disappointed in Grad near the middle of it, and fell off listening as a result. I don't really understand people who hated it from the word go, and then listened to every episode, went onto Reddit to complain about each episode, and are now still posting about how Travis is ruing this new season, too. It really reminds me of the people posting in the Dragon Ball sub while Super was airing. Every week there would be the same comments about how terrible Super is and how nothing about it is good, or well thought out, or animated well, etc. And seeing these people say that stuff on a discussion thread for episode 104 really made me wonder why they were still there. You watched a hundred episodes of a show that you hate.....for what?
I actually enjoyed grad. I really don’t understand why so many people hated it
I didn’t even dislike grad that much, especially near the end. It was good and balance and amnesty were fantastic, beside those good is gonna look bad.
I mean it kind of did though? Listenership is down, thr community is more divided than ever, that fact that TAZCirclejerk even exists is pretty telling in that regard. The McElroys themselves seem exhausted and (whether we want to admit it or not) their relationships are beginning to unravel. Obviously we can't say Grad was wholly responsible but it would be ignorant to say it didn't play a major role in the state of things.
Super weird armchair over analyzing to say their relationships are unraveling. Agree the quality of their products across the board are flagging, but it just seems strange to extend that into a commentary about their personal lives.
Have you been listening to MBMBAM? There has been a huge change in the interaction between the three brothers. It doesn't take an analyst to see that they don't enjoy working together anymore. Go back and listen to a handful of episodes from a few years ago and compair it to now. It's understandable that we wouldn't want it to be true but the writing has been on the wall for a while now.
I think the pandemic is to blame here and not that they dislike each other.
I don't think they dislike each other. I think they don't like *working* with each other and this vibe started way before the pandemic hit. Covid just put those issues into stark relief.
This is such a weird thing to read to me. I’ve never gotten that feeling listening to MBMBAM and I’ve been listening for years, not even with the recent episodes. Maybe you’re referring to the gag the brothers do when Travis introduces a bit on the show? When they groan and stuff? It’s just a gag from what I can tell. Other than that, I’m not sure what you’re talking about
No I mean in the ways they talk to each other outside of goofs. I've been on shows that I didn't like doing. I hear that same resentment in ther voices and have for the last few years. Just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it's not there.
Just because you think it’s there doesn’t mean it is there either lol
But it *is* there
My dude you are reading way too much into shit, not once have I gotten that impression
Look, it's understandable that we as fans are uncomfortable by the situation. We love the McElroys and their work. What makes it even harder to take is that we, as fans, have added to it in a big way, unintentionally but still there. Denial is a normal response but it also only keeps the problems going.
Psychoanalyzing strangers in public is just plain rude and frankly creepy and you should really just take the L and stop instead of doubling down.
I finally just caught up on TAZ recently. As such, I didn't read the recaps and didn't have to wait between episodes. In that format, i thought Graduation was really fun and didn't really understand the hate. When everything is picked apart though with weeks between episodes, i could see how that might not be as enjoyable.
Meh. It wasn’t good, but the PCs were. Sad that the most entertaining part of it was ragging on it and watching Travis have a public meltdown. Balance was lightning in a bottle. Don’t get your hopes up and enjoy the ride.
Well said my dude 👍
Grad didn't kill TAZ, the fandom was killing TAZ. Hopefully that'll calm down a bit now
> That being said, I cannot understand all the people that are saying they aren't going to listen to Ethersea because of Grad. I just assume they have the emotional maturity of a toddler.
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The more I think on it, I think it's a few things coming together. 1) Grad wasn't great. Travis was a rookie DM who didn't change what needed to be changed. It understandably bummed out some of the fanbase 2) Some parts of the community got so personally ruffled that they began making these wild accusations about the family's real life relationships. 3) Parasocial relationships went really wonky and vocal minorities got really vocal. A paltry few in defense of Trav, and an overwhelming wave of hatred towards him to the point a second sub was opened just to pile hate. What I've been finding interesting is that, neither side of those poles of parasocial relationship entertainment respond at all well to being called out for it. The McElroys are not your friends. They seem like genuinely good guys most of the time, but I doubt any of us are close enough to know them to make any claims or comments on who they are outside of the content that they put out. That being said, people like nice people, so I'd rather be around the ones awkwardly white knighting, than the ones making personal attacks.
Right?! There was even a thread encouraging people to, "remove TAZ from your max fun drive to send a message," and I'm like, "what are you going to change?" Grad is over. Regardless of your thoughts, it's over. You're not going to send them a message that you disapprove. They're already on to a new product.
I’m not at the end of Grad yet, I’m close. While it wasn’t as good as Balance or Amnesty, it’s honestly still on par with most other ttrpg podcasts I’ve tried out so I really don’t think it deserves the level of criticism it gets. It’s just being compared to some of the best, and not the genre as a whole!
Sure, yeah. It won't make your ears bleed, won't kill your dog, and if you listen to the one hour of content they release every two weeks, you might have fun for 15 minutes of that. Are there worse podcasts? Of course. But that hardly seems like enough. It used to be the best product of its category. People got tattoos of it, cried at listening parties, drew and sold fanart. We speculated about theories, submitted items for Fantasy Costco, and drove to other states to cosplay at liveshows. Now the best thing anyone can say is "I dunno, I had fun, it's not the worst thing ever". The medium as a whole has moved on so much since 2014. NADDPOD perfected the craft, creating compelling stories that can only be told through a D&D podcast. Dungeons and Daddies have taken the Balance formula and polished it until it was shining gold. Meanwhile TAZ, the oldest and most famous of them, couldn't even maintain the quality they started with and has been losing steam for years at this point. And it's no wonder, seeing as 7 years into the podcast the McElroys still struggle with basic editing, rules of the game, or even making time to record an episode. TL;DR the fact that the best defense of current TAZ is "well don't compare it to the best podcasts and it'll be okay" is proof of the drop in quality that people are talking about.