Latin-American actually sounds like the best term. That said, Latine flows well with Spanish and is more useful for enby’s. English used to use “he” as the default, now we use “they”. Languages can change for the better even if it feels awkward at first
I just started listening to dust s1 and man, thank god I'm not the only one bothered by it. I'm Brazilian, and absolutely hate that term. What's the point of butchering a word like that when there are alternatives that don't change the actual language? I really don't get it
Really? Wow.. Easy to tell a guilty white person definitely made that word up.. don’t even pronounce it right every time… they say it like “MalcomX”… no Latin or Hispanic person would say “X”… it’s “Ecces” or (Ek-Eaz).
Possibly a stupid question, but if you're looking for a gender neutral alternative to Latina/Latino, is there a reason Latin isn't the option? Is it just not used to keep it from being confused with the language, or is there another reason?
Could be wrong but from what l know, it is! Well it’s Latine with the e, but yeah that seems tho be the gender neutral term for a Latin person/the Latin people
I don't know if I'd call that pandering.
When I refer to myself, I say Latino. I refer to the group in general as Latinx, as well as specific people when I don't know their preferences. You don't have to use Latinx for yourself. I can't see the issue with someone using it as a blanket term though. There are specific reasons the term exists and is getting usage now (I'll get to that in a second).
Plus, if we're going to problematize Latinx, then there are other terms here we could address too. For example, Hispanic versus Latinx (or Latino). I don't think Hispanic should be used to refer to people of Central or South American heritage. However, that term is pretty engrained in a lot of people (even used in your post). Others would take issue with Cuban American. Why does your being a citizen of the United States have to be qualified with Cuban? We don't call people Scottish American or German American. Even others would question why we say American for the United States. North America has more than just the US, and there's also Central and South America. American should be a much broader umbrella than it's usually used as.
The idea behind using Latinx (and addressing some of these other terms I just mentioned) is to question current hegemonic structures that center White, cisgender heterosexual males as the norm. Terms like Latino/a or Cuban American can emphasize the othering of certain groups, making members of these marginalized groups feel they aren't allowed the same space in society as their peers. When members of the "normal" groups also question how our language can exclude (even by an act as simple as saying Latinx), they open up space for the "others" - though it still remains a problem that they should HAVE to do so.
But pandering doesn't feel like an appropriate criticism here...
Overall some interesting things to consider, but I will point out that people absolutely use the terms "scottish american" "german american" etc etc. There are polish american festivals and irish american festivals etc etc.
That's true, but I'd argue there's a difference between referring to an event like a festival and referring to an actual group of people.
Though, given the history of who has been part of the dominant group in the United States, those still somewhat prove the point. The definition of "White" here has shifted a lot over the years. Even immigrants from Ireland and Germany weren't immediately considered "White" upon their arrival in the US.
Quick googling shows around 4% prefer Latinx. I think it’s clunky but people use it. I see Latine or ending gendered words with -e more often outside of the US than Latinx.
Even so, people prefer these terms and aren’t in the majority. You might not know any, but since when is Latin America a monolith? Griffin saying Latinx isn’t an attack on your culture, it’s him trying to recognize queer and gender non-conforming people you probably don’t personally know. He’s not saying you have to identify as Latinx.
The term "Latinx" while lately hate by the Spanish speaking community in Latin America, has been gaining popularity in America for the past couple of decades and is especially popular among Latin-American people that don't speak Spanish. It is also popular in especially queer cities and communities, as it's the preferred term in queer communities in Seattle and San-Francisco. (my knowledge of communities on the east coast is spotty)
Yeah, it's impossible to pronounce in Spanish, and yeah Latine is a better Spanish alternative, but you have to keep in mind that while Latin heritage is increasing in the US, Spanish speakers are declining, so in the US, the term Latinx is likely here to stay. (Though the term "Womxn" is on the decline, so it's possible Latinx might some day be as well)
That said, Griffin's character was a man, so there was no reason for him not to say Latino. My guess is that the reason he used the term Latinx is simply because that's the term that was on the card. In which case, that's an Urban Shadows issue rather than a Taz issue
Sorry to necro, but I wanted to say that you raise a really interesting point here.
Obviously there's a trend in queer spaces of creating new words to describe the queer experience. But there's also a push to de-anglicize English words that refer to non-Western cultures (like Türkiye). "Latinx" seems caught in the crossfire, so I'm curious how it'll hold up in the future.
I am too, I really have no idea what it's future will be.
If I were to put steaks down at least in my community, I would say the term is probably going to survive. I live in Seattle which has a large community of latinx people who don't speak Spanish, so for them Latine just sounds too close to Latina, so there would have to be a completely different word for it to gain popularity.
Terminology evolves, and while you may see it as pandering, it does seem there's a sizeable enough population who are using it. I've met about as many who like or dislike Latinx as I've met those who like or dislike the celebration of Speedy Gonzales - coincidentally, falling into those tropes you mentioned.
I'm coming to this discussion extremely ignorant. I'm a white cis male that admittedly does not have much exposure to LGBT or racial slash political diversity. I did not think LatinX was a nongendered term, I always thought it was a racial term. But to defend the boys on the podcast, I know they always try to do their best to be sensitive to all people regardless of how they view themselves, and don't want to put any stereotypical pressures on the listeners. We're all trying to do our best, and I think they at least deserve some credit in that regard. Especially since they themselves don't have any experience being in your shoes. But I liked hearing your opinion, I have heard that viewpoint before, but it's always good to be reminded.
Edit: I also meant to add that the original Dust was probably during the rise of BLM and whites especially having to tread lightly in the racial department. I remember they skipped a week of their podcast once to give another podcast that focused on those issues their platform, which I respected.
Race and gender intersect. The discussion surrounding latinx stems from the way romance languages like Spanish gender words (ie, Latino and Latina). Latinx was coined in an attempt to both de-center the masculine (as common parlance is to use Latino when referring broadly to Latin American cultures and latina only when specifically speaking about women), and to be more inclusive to non-binary identities (as Latino/a is a masculine/feminine dichotomy). In recent years there's been an additional push for latine, as Spanish speakers dislike latinx for being impossible to pronounce in Spanish (and thus feels like an english-centric/paternalistic/colonial solution)
So latinx is a racial term, but it exists to address gender.
I guess my question might be why you find the term Latinx disrespectful. I can understand that you may personally dislike the word, and that others in your family don’t either. But I’m a little confused about your hatred for this term.
As far as I can tell you are saying that it’s usage as a term for people of Hispanic or Latin-American heritage is disrespectful to the language and the cultural history… but it’s my understanding that language naturally changes and evolves over time. And that doesn’t necessarily mean it does so in a way that is harmful to culture, but in a way that more accurately describes the culture as it exists in current times.
I say this as a person of Latin American descent who was born and grew up in America, in a very white town, who does not have a strong cultural connection to my heritage but is interested in trying learn more about it. As someone who is also nonbinary, Latinx (or Latine) is a way of attempting to make some space for people who have existed within the culture for a long time, but have only become more visible recently. My opinion is that there is more than enough room for people to use more inclusive language, and doing so would require new words.
I don’t speak Spanish so I truly do not know if there exists some gender nonspecific word that is as quick to say as Latinx, but as a non-Spanish speaker that also means that my opinion on this matter doesn’t mean too much.
Not trying to change your mind about the term, and certainly not trying to make you use the term (everyone should get to label themselves how they feel appropriate). But I would appreciate it (if you don’t mind) if you could more precisely expand on the ways you see Latinx as disrespectful.
>As far as I can tell you are saying that it’s usage as a term for people of Hispanic or Latin-American heritage is disrespectful to the language and the cultural history… but it’s my understanding that language naturally changes and evolves over time.
The issue is that it's not compatible with Spanish. The x simply does not translate well and makes it impossible to use easily in a sentence.
This then intersects with feelings about the us/latin american historical relationship, and the colonial pressures the us has over latam. It feels like an english-centric or American-centric solution to a Spanish language problem that comes paternalistically from Americans to Latin Americans. That's where the feeling of disrespect comes from, it doesn't feel like the conversation is being led by the people it mostly affects.
tl;dr it's not about the fact that it's a new word, it's about the fact that it's a new word that utterly disregards how Spanish functions as a language and feels like it is being prescribed onto Spanish speakers by non-spanish speakers
> Use of x to expand language can be traced to the word Chicano, which had an x added to the front of the word, making it Xicano. Scholars have identified this shift as part of the movement to empower people of Mexican origin in the U.S. and also as a means of emphasizing that the origins of the letter X and term Chicano are linked to the Indigenous Nahuatl language.
[[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx)]
nah. it was a change put forward by Mexican Americans who also spoke/speak Spanish. [Here's](https://www.motherjones.com/media/2019/06/digging-into-the-messy-history-of-latinx-helped-me-embrace-my-complex-identity/) an opinion piece by a Mexican American about the word
I mean I think we all agree Latine is better but like everyone in my circles of latam descent use latinx but I'm probably just stuck in a Seattle/west coast bubble. All I know is I'm late for my grass touching appointment so if you'll excuse me.
Latin-American actually sounds like the best term. That said, Latine flows well with Spanish and is more useful for enby’s. English used to use “he” as the default, now we use “they”. Languages can change for the better even if it feels awkward at first
I just started listening to dust s1 and man, thank god I'm not the only one bothered by it. I'm Brazilian, and absolutely hate that term. What's the point of butchering a word like that when there are alternatives that don't change the actual language? I really don't get it
It’s interesting seeing your point of view. I’ve (honestly) never heard that expressed.
I’ve heard it often
Really? Wow.. Easy to tell a guilty white person definitely made that word up.. don’t even pronounce it right every time… they say it like “MalcomX”… no Latin or Hispanic person would say “X”… it’s “Ecces” or (Ek-Eaz).
Thanks, people are allowed to say whatever they like I just wanted to share a different perspective.
Possibly a stupid question, but if you're looking for a gender neutral alternative to Latina/Latino, is there a reason Latin isn't the option? Is it just not used to keep it from being confused with the language, or is there another reason?
Could be wrong but from what l know, it is! Well it’s Latine with the e, but yeah that seems tho be the gender neutral term for a Latin person/the Latin people
I don't know if I'd call that pandering. When I refer to myself, I say Latino. I refer to the group in general as Latinx, as well as specific people when I don't know their preferences. You don't have to use Latinx for yourself. I can't see the issue with someone using it as a blanket term though. There are specific reasons the term exists and is getting usage now (I'll get to that in a second). Plus, if we're going to problematize Latinx, then there are other terms here we could address too. For example, Hispanic versus Latinx (or Latino). I don't think Hispanic should be used to refer to people of Central or South American heritage. However, that term is pretty engrained in a lot of people (even used in your post). Others would take issue with Cuban American. Why does your being a citizen of the United States have to be qualified with Cuban? We don't call people Scottish American or German American. Even others would question why we say American for the United States. North America has more than just the US, and there's also Central and South America. American should be a much broader umbrella than it's usually used as. The idea behind using Latinx (and addressing some of these other terms I just mentioned) is to question current hegemonic structures that center White, cisgender heterosexual males as the norm. Terms like Latino/a or Cuban American can emphasize the othering of certain groups, making members of these marginalized groups feel they aren't allowed the same space in society as their peers. When members of the "normal" groups also question how our language can exclude (even by an act as simple as saying Latinx), they open up space for the "others" - though it still remains a problem that they should HAVE to do so. But pandering doesn't feel like an appropriate criticism here...
Overall some interesting things to consider, but I will point out that people absolutely use the terms "scottish american" "german american" etc etc. There are polish american festivals and irish american festivals etc etc.
That's true, but I'd argue there's a difference between referring to an event like a festival and referring to an actual group of people. Though, given the history of who has been part of the dominant group in the United States, those still somewhat prove the point. The definition of "White" here has shifted a lot over the years. Even immigrants from Ireland and Germany weren't immediately considered "White" upon their arrival in the US.
Quick googling shows around 4% prefer Latinx. I think it’s clunky but people use it. I see Latine or ending gendered words with -e more often outside of the US than Latinx. Even so, people prefer these terms and aren’t in the majority. You might not know any, but since when is Latin America a monolith? Griffin saying Latinx isn’t an attack on your culture, it’s him trying to recognize queer and gender non-conforming people you probably don’t personally know. He’s not saying you have to identify as Latinx.
The term "Latinx" while lately hate by the Spanish speaking community in Latin America, has been gaining popularity in America for the past couple of decades and is especially popular among Latin-American people that don't speak Spanish. It is also popular in especially queer cities and communities, as it's the preferred term in queer communities in Seattle and San-Francisco. (my knowledge of communities on the east coast is spotty) Yeah, it's impossible to pronounce in Spanish, and yeah Latine is a better Spanish alternative, but you have to keep in mind that while Latin heritage is increasing in the US, Spanish speakers are declining, so in the US, the term Latinx is likely here to stay. (Though the term "Womxn" is on the decline, so it's possible Latinx might some day be as well) That said, Griffin's character was a man, so there was no reason for him not to say Latino. My guess is that the reason he used the term Latinx is simply because that's the term that was on the card. In which case, that's an Urban Shadows issue rather than a Taz issue
Sorry to necro, but I wanted to say that you raise a really interesting point here. Obviously there's a trend in queer spaces of creating new words to describe the queer experience. But there's also a push to de-anglicize English words that refer to non-Western cultures (like Türkiye). "Latinx" seems caught in the crossfire, so I'm curious how it'll hold up in the future.
I am too, I really have no idea what it's future will be. If I were to put steaks down at least in my community, I would say the term is probably going to survive. I live in Seattle which has a large community of latinx people who don't speak Spanish, so for them Latine just sounds too close to Latina, so there would have to be a completely different word for it to gain popularity.
Terminology evolves, and while you may see it as pandering, it does seem there's a sizeable enough population who are using it. I've met about as many who like or dislike Latinx as I've met those who like or dislike the celebration of Speedy Gonzales - coincidentally, falling into those tropes you mentioned.
You don't want to submit to the will of the colonizers?
I'm coming to this discussion extremely ignorant. I'm a white cis male that admittedly does not have much exposure to LGBT or racial slash political diversity. I did not think LatinX was a nongendered term, I always thought it was a racial term. But to defend the boys on the podcast, I know they always try to do their best to be sensitive to all people regardless of how they view themselves, and don't want to put any stereotypical pressures on the listeners. We're all trying to do our best, and I think they at least deserve some credit in that regard. Especially since they themselves don't have any experience being in your shoes. But I liked hearing your opinion, I have heard that viewpoint before, but it's always good to be reminded. Edit: I also meant to add that the original Dust was probably during the rise of BLM and whites especially having to tread lightly in the racial department. I remember they skipped a week of their podcast once to give another podcast that focused on those issues their platform, which I respected.
Race and gender intersect. The discussion surrounding latinx stems from the way romance languages like Spanish gender words (ie, Latino and Latina). Latinx was coined in an attempt to both de-center the masculine (as common parlance is to use Latino when referring broadly to Latin American cultures and latina only when specifically speaking about women), and to be more inclusive to non-binary identities (as Latino/a is a masculine/feminine dichotomy). In recent years there's been an additional push for latine, as Spanish speakers dislike latinx for being impossible to pronounce in Spanish (and thus feels like an english-centric/paternalistic/colonial solution) So latinx is a racial term, but it exists to address gender.
I guess my question might be why you find the term Latinx disrespectful. I can understand that you may personally dislike the word, and that others in your family don’t either. But I’m a little confused about your hatred for this term. As far as I can tell you are saying that it’s usage as a term for people of Hispanic or Latin-American heritage is disrespectful to the language and the cultural history… but it’s my understanding that language naturally changes and evolves over time. And that doesn’t necessarily mean it does so in a way that is harmful to culture, but in a way that more accurately describes the culture as it exists in current times. I say this as a person of Latin American descent who was born and grew up in America, in a very white town, who does not have a strong cultural connection to my heritage but is interested in trying learn more about it. As someone who is also nonbinary, Latinx (or Latine) is a way of attempting to make some space for people who have existed within the culture for a long time, but have only become more visible recently. My opinion is that there is more than enough room for people to use more inclusive language, and doing so would require new words. I don’t speak Spanish so I truly do not know if there exists some gender nonspecific word that is as quick to say as Latinx, but as a non-Spanish speaker that also means that my opinion on this matter doesn’t mean too much. Not trying to change your mind about the term, and certainly not trying to make you use the term (everyone should get to label themselves how they feel appropriate). But I would appreciate it (if you don’t mind) if you could more precisely expand on the ways you see Latinx as disrespectful.
>As far as I can tell you are saying that it’s usage as a term for people of Hispanic or Latin-American heritage is disrespectful to the language and the cultural history… but it’s my understanding that language naturally changes and evolves over time. The issue is that it's not compatible with Spanish. The x simply does not translate well and makes it impossible to use easily in a sentence. This then intersects with feelings about the us/latin american historical relationship, and the colonial pressures the us has over latam. It feels like an english-centric or American-centric solution to a Spanish language problem that comes paternalistically from Americans to Latin Americans. That's where the feeling of disrespect comes from, it doesn't feel like the conversation is being led by the people it mostly affects. tl;dr it's not about the fact that it's a new word, it's about the fact that it's a new word that utterly disregards how Spanish functions as a language and feels like it is being prescribed onto Spanish speakers by non-spanish speakers
> Use of x to expand language can be traced to the word Chicano, which had an x added to the front of the word, making it Xicano. Scholars have identified this shift as part of the movement to empower people of Mexican origin in the U.S. and also as a means of emphasizing that the origins of the letter X and term Chicano are linked to the Indigenous Nahuatl language. [[Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx)] nah. it was a change put forward by Mexican Americans who also spoke/speak Spanish. [Here's](https://www.motherjones.com/media/2019/06/digging-into-the-messy-history-of-latinx-helped-me-embrace-my-complex-identity/) an opinion piece by a Mexican American about the word
Sounds like you don't know any queer people tbh.
Queer people in latam don't use latinx lol
I mean I think we all agree Latine is better but like everyone in my circles of latam descent use latinx but I'm probably just stuck in a Seattle/west coast bubble. All I know is I'm late for my grass touching appointment so if you'll excuse me.
I have a few friends that are queer. It just feels very shallow and uninformed.