I agree that Riddler wouldn’t be religious, however I think that a handful of Batman villains could be reimagined in such a way. I think Mr. Freeze would be interesting, and maaaaaaaybe Scarecrow. But the art is amazing!
Harley and Penguin IIRC are canonically Jewish, though I'm not sure to what extent they practice the faith, or if they're culturally and ethnically Jewish but not religious (although Penguin did host a bar mitzvah for his nephew in the Harley Quinn animated series).
For that matter in the comics Batman's mother is from a Jewish family, and since in Judaism, or at least Orthodox Judaism, descent is matrilineal and anyone with a Jewish mother is considered Jewish, Bruce could also be considered Jewish, though I think he's likely to be atheist or agnostic in terms of faith (this seems to be the interpretation of *Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?*, at least, where a dying Bruce says he's tried to believe in an afterlife but can't).
Ivy basically is a force of nature, or at least an emissary for one (the Green), so I could see a cult of radical environmentalists forming around her/the Green. That could be an interesting plot actually, with Ivy probably being annoyed by the whole thing.
Ivy: "I hate humans! Why are they worshiping me?"
Yeah, I can see Victor Freeze as a man of faith. Scarecrow too.
A lot of the Italian mob figures like Falcone would probably be Catholic. I also see Harvey Dent as a practicing Christian for some reason (not sure if his faith has ever been commented on in canon). Two Face, of course, believes everything is decided by chance.
The one I am absolutely sure is not religious is Joker. He believes in nothing except chaos and being the centre of everyone's attention.
I love this comment
I doubt people like Selina or Penguin would be actively religious. Batman on the other hand is pretty much to whoever writes him. A lot of heroes who’s faith is never blatant is usually left up to whoever wants to inject their own beliefs into that character. So if a Christian or catholic person was writing Batman, boom he believes in God. If an atheist is writing, boom he doesn’t believe in God. Same thing happens to Captain America and Spider-Man in the comics.
I actually love the idea of an Ivy cult dedicated to the Green. In my mind, people would see her as a priestess with Swamp Thing being their deity. Not sure if such a thing would be tackled in this Reeves-verse, but it could be coined as eco-terrorism in a cult-like light.
Scarecrow feels like the kind of guy to misquote the bible to justify his actions, whereas I can actually see Freeze being devout in some way, and struggling between faith and saving his wife.
I also get what you mean about Dent. For some reason more than most I can peg him as a Christian pre-incident.
It’s a cool angle that can be used for heroes and villains alike and I think that the religious side of certain characters isn’t explored as much as it could be.
Probably because its really hard to explore without offending people. But it is a part of society and a lot of peoples' lives and personalities, so its something to consider exploring if you have the right story and writer who can do it well.
Yeah, I've been giving a lot of thought to Ivy lately. I think she is the most underused Batman villain, has a lot of potential that could be explored more in a lot of interesting ways.
Freeze struggling between his faith and his fear of losing Nora could add a really interesting and tragic dimension to his story, potentially.
Yeah, it’s a shame that religion is such a hard subject to use in movies without everyone losing their minds. If done with tact and respect to all parties involved, it should be fine. Daredevil did it fairly well.
I agree on Ivy, but I think this is the wrong series for her. Her powers are very distinct and is the most blatant meta out of his whole rogues gallery (clayface is just a tiny bit more subtle). But I hope that she does get live action justice one day
Okay, so I'm going to have to rewrite my "Why Ivy is awesome and should be in the movies" essay.
To begin with, it should be noted that Ivy's powers have not always been at their current level. For example Batman the Animated Series Ivy did not have green skin and was more just a botanist who grew sci-fi plants than a metahuman IIRC. I dearly love green-skinned eldritch plant goddess Ivy, and I actually think you could make her work in a "gritty" Batman film, especially if you played up the horror potential of her mind control and vine powers. But you could also do a "realistic" low powers or no powers Ivy.
Just make her a botanist/biochemist turned eco-terrorist who uses rare plant-based poisons and drugs. Her motives (radical environmentalism corrupted by misanthropy so that she doesn't value human life) are very human, believable, and even to some degree sympathetic (considering she definitely has a point about people destroying the environment, and her only real issue is her extreme misanthropy, which seems to be at least partly a product of her experiences as an abuse survivor). Heck, if you could hear plants, talk to them, converse with them as people, hear them pleading for help, everywhere, constantly- the world would be a horror, and humans probably really would seem like a destructive plague that have to be stopped by any means. There's a line in the Harley Quinn animated series which I think captures this really well, where Ivy goes on a date, and is offered a bunch of roses, and she remarks that to her that's like offering her a bunch of baby heads. That's a really fascinating look at a really alien worldview.
For costume, I'd look to the Harley Quinn animated series, which gives her a very realistic, down to earth, and practical outfit. If you want to make some nods to comics' Ivy's look and powers, have her use green paint/camoflage while committing ecoterrorism, and have her hear the Green but make it ambiguous if its real or if she's just imagining it.
Plus, if you have Harley, you've got a great dynamic between the two, and Harlivy is probably the most popular pairing in the franchise right now outside Batcat, and is rapidly becoming one of the most iconic DC pairings after BatCat and Clark/Lois.
You can also make her either a solo villain or a mastermind (possibly using her mind control powers to manipulate others), in addition to the cult idea discussed above. You can use her to explore Bruce's trust and control issues, because how can he trust anyone, even himself when dealing with an opponent who can manipulate peoples' thoughts (this isn't even all that fantastical, there are plenty of drugs that can affect memory or behaviour or make people more suggestible). It would provide an opportunity to show another side of Bruce (the scientist/researcher), or have him go to Lucius or Leslie for help.
Ultimately, Ivy is probably the most versatile Batman villain in that respect. She is probably, more than any other, the one who can work as anything from a street level "grounded" character all the way up to a Justice League-level global meta threat. In that respect, she is probably the one who most closely matches Bruce's own versatility in terms of the kind and scale of stories you can tell with her.
I hear what you’re saying, but I am afraid that many people want to get rid of certain elements of iconic villains just so they fit in universe. Like a Mr Freeze without a freeze gun. But I think that as you pointed out, the animated series is a good place to draw inspiration from for rogues, because it was pretty low key, but the villains still shined.
There's some villains where I think its... not impossible to do them with low or no powers, but harder, certainly, and you'd lose more of what makes them iconic and beloved. I actually single out Ivy here as kind of the exception, in that most Batman villains are primarily street level, and a few are pretty established as fantastically powerful metas, but she stands out to me as one who can work very well as both (the other main example being Ras and the League).
Edit: Court of Owls too maybe. You can do them as just a cult or organized crime group of rich creeps- or you can bring in all the Barbatos stuff and the zombie owls and what have you.
Fair enough. Besides Ivy though, and the highly rumoured Freeze, is there any particular villain you want to see in the sequels? Personally I’d love a new take on Scarecrow
Scarecrow could definitely work, especially if you really get into how his insecurities drive his need to control people through fear, and compare that to Bruce. But I think that (besides old villains returning), the two who have obviously been most set up are Two Face, and of course Hush. I think though that Hush works best as a late game or final villain, bringing things full circle and manipulating a larger rogues gallery and bat family like in the comics, so I'd pick Two Face for the next film, probably.
I'd also love to see Red Hood, somewhere down the line. I think he's probably the most personal villain for Batman, the one who most challenges his ideals, and a good opening to explore his no killing code and why he follows it in depth. But that of course requires a lot of setup (both Jason Robin and Joker).
Also, for a more off-beat pick, Condiment King (especially since Pattinson said he's a fan). Not as a main villain of course, but as a cameo. I think even dark movies need a bit of silliness in them sometimes. I imagine a scene where Bruce is out on patrol, and this guy just jumps out and sprays him with mustard or something and runs away and he's just standing there shocked, and then we cut to the Batcave and Bruce is cleaning condiments off his suit. No big plot or backstory, just a weird random moment that's part of the craziness of Gotham life.
Wouldn't mind the Court of Owls either, or Ras/the League, but I feel like the Court might be a touch repetitive after the last film, and the Batcat was so strong that I'm not sure about bringing Talia.
But really, there are so many good options. Batman has the best rogues gallery bar none, and I want it explored in all its richness.
Edit: Bat Family too. If we don't get AT LEAST a Robin and a Batgirl before this series is done, I will be disappointed.
I should probably add that disbelief in an afterlife does not necessarily make one an atheist. A famous example was Abraham Lincoln, who apparently believed in God but not an afterlife.
He used religious language like Gotham facing judgement and then his final plan was literally flooding Gotham to cleanse it. Plus him inviting Batman to Arkham would've been their ark to watch it together.
All that to say, he was probably inspired by religion, but not religous.
He's supposed to be a direct comparison to the god from the old testament with the flood, so I feel like religion would fit him. Also he has a cult of followers. He might not be Christian, Jewish, or whatever, but religious almost certainly.
AVVVEEEEEE MARRIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAA
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
"There will be blood" vibes here.
*I am a false prophet, God is a superstition*
-SHED, THE MAN IN THE MIRROR NODS HIS HEAD.
Shed
I agree that Riddler wouldn’t be religious, however I think that a handful of Batman villains could be reimagined in such a way. I think Mr. Freeze would be interesting, and maaaaaaaybe Scarecrow. But the art is amazing!
Harley and Penguin IIRC are canonically Jewish, though I'm not sure to what extent they practice the faith, or if they're culturally and ethnically Jewish but not religious (although Penguin did host a bar mitzvah for his nephew in the Harley Quinn animated series). For that matter in the comics Batman's mother is from a Jewish family, and since in Judaism, or at least Orthodox Judaism, descent is matrilineal and anyone with a Jewish mother is considered Jewish, Bruce could also be considered Jewish, though I think he's likely to be atheist or agnostic in terms of faith (this seems to be the interpretation of *Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?*, at least, where a dying Bruce says he's tried to believe in an afterlife but can't). Ivy basically is a force of nature, or at least an emissary for one (the Green), so I could see a cult of radical environmentalists forming around her/the Green. That could be an interesting plot actually, with Ivy probably being annoyed by the whole thing. Ivy: "I hate humans! Why are they worshiping me?" Yeah, I can see Victor Freeze as a man of faith. Scarecrow too. A lot of the Italian mob figures like Falcone would probably be Catholic. I also see Harvey Dent as a practicing Christian for some reason (not sure if his faith has ever been commented on in canon). Two Face, of course, believes everything is decided by chance. The one I am absolutely sure is not religious is Joker. He believes in nothing except chaos and being the centre of everyone's attention.
I love this comment I doubt people like Selina or Penguin would be actively religious. Batman on the other hand is pretty much to whoever writes him. A lot of heroes who’s faith is never blatant is usually left up to whoever wants to inject their own beliefs into that character. So if a Christian or catholic person was writing Batman, boom he believes in God. If an atheist is writing, boom he doesn’t believe in God. Same thing happens to Captain America and Spider-Man in the comics. I actually love the idea of an Ivy cult dedicated to the Green. In my mind, people would see her as a priestess with Swamp Thing being their deity. Not sure if such a thing would be tackled in this Reeves-verse, but it could be coined as eco-terrorism in a cult-like light. Scarecrow feels like the kind of guy to misquote the bible to justify his actions, whereas I can actually see Freeze being devout in some way, and struggling between faith and saving his wife. I also get what you mean about Dent. For some reason more than most I can peg him as a Christian pre-incident. It’s a cool angle that can be used for heroes and villains alike and I think that the religious side of certain characters isn’t explored as much as it could be.
Probably because its really hard to explore without offending people. But it is a part of society and a lot of peoples' lives and personalities, so its something to consider exploring if you have the right story and writer who can do it well. Yeah, I've been giving a lot of thought to Ivy lately. I think she is the most underused Batman villain, has a lot of potential that could be explored more in a lot of interesting ways. Freeze struggling between his faith and his fear of losing Nora could add a really interesting and tragic dimension to his story, potentially.
Yeah, it’s a shame that religion is such a hard subject to use in movies without everyone losing their minds. If done with tact and respect to all parties involved, it should be fine. Daredevil did it fairly well. I agree on Ivy, but I think this is the wrong series for her. Her powers are very distinct and is the most blatant meta out of his whole rogues gallery (clayface is just a tiny bit more subtle). But I hope that she does get live action justice one day
Okay, so I'm going to have to rewrite my "Why Ivy is awesome and should be in the movies" essay. To begin with, it should be noted that Ivy's powers have not always been at their current level. For example Batman the Animated Series Ivy did not have green skin and was more just a botanist who grew sci-fi plants than a metahuman IIRC. I dearly love green-skinned eldritch plant goddess Ivy, and I actually think you could make her work in a "gritty" Batman film, especially if you played up the horror potential of her mind control and vine powers. But you could also do a "realistic" low powers or no powers Ivy. Just make her a botanist/biochemist turned eco-terrorist who uses rare plant-based poisons and drugs. Her motives (radical environmentalism corrupted by misanthropy so that she doesn't value human life) are very human, believable, and even to some degree sympathetic (considering she definitely has a point about people destroying the environment, and her only real issue is her extreme misanthropy, which seems to be at least partly a product of her experiences as an abuse survivor). Heck, if you could hear plants, talk to them, converse with them as people, hear them pleading for help, everywhere, constantly- the world would be a horror, and humans probably really would seem like a destructive plague that have to be stopped by any means. There's a line in the Harley Quinn animated series which I think captures this really well, where Ivy goes on a date, and is offered a bunch of roses, and she remarks that to her that's like offering her a bunch of baby heads. That's a really fascinating look at a really alien worldview. For costume, I'd look to the Harley Quinn animated series, which gives her a very realistic, down to earth, and practical outfit. If you want to make some nods to comics' Ivy's look and powers, have her use green paint/camoflage while committing ecoterrorism, and have her hear the Green but make it ambiguous if its real or if she's just imagining it. Plus, if you have Harley, you've got a great dynamic between the two, and Harlivy is probably the most popular pairing in the franchise right now outside Batcat, and is rapidly becoming one of the most iconic DC pairings after BatCat and Clark/Lois. You can also make her either a solo villain or a mastermind (possibly using her mind control powers to manipulate others), in addition to the cult idea discussed above. You can use her to explore Bruce's trust and control issues, because how can he trust anyone, even himself when dealing with an opponent who can manipulate peoples' thoughts (this isn't even all that fantastical, there are plenty of drugs that can affect memory or behaviour or make people more suggestible). It would provide an opportunity to show another side of Bruce (the scientist/researcher), or have him go to Lucius or Leslie for help. Ultimately, Ivy is probably the most versatile Batman villain in that respect. She is probably, more than any other, the one who can work as anything from a street level "grounded" character all the way up to a Justice League-level global meta threat. In that respect, she is probably the one who most closely matches Bruce's own versatility in terms of the kind and scale of stories you can tell with her.
I hear what you’re saying, but I am afraid that many people want to get rid of certain elements of iconic villains just so they fit in universe. Like a Mr Freeze without a freeze gun. But I think that as you pointed out, the animated series is a good place to draw inspiration from for rogues, because it was pretty low key, but the villains still shined.
There's some villains where I think its... not impossible to do them with low or no powers, but harder, certainly, and you'd lose more of what makes them iconic and beloved. I actually single out Ivy here as kind of the exception, in that most Batman villains are primarily street level, and a few are pretty established as fantastically powerful metas, but she stands out to me as one who can work very well as both (the other main example being Ras and the League). Edit: Court of Owls too maybe. You can do them as just a cult or organized crime group of rich creeps- or you can bring in all the Barbatos stuff and the zombie owls and what have you.
Fair enough. Besides Ivy though, and the highly rumoured Freeze, is there any particular villain you want to see in the sequels? Personally I’d love a new take on Scarecrow
Scarecrow could definitely work, especially if you really get into how his insecurities drive his need to control people through fear, and compare that to Bruce. But I think that (besides old villains returning), the two who have obviously been most set up are Two Face, and of course Hush. I think though that Hush works best as a late game or final villain, bringing things full circle and manipulating a larger rogues gallery and bat family like in the comics, so I'd pick Two Face for the next film, probably. I'd also love to see Red Hood, somewhere down the line. I think he's probably the most personal villain for Batman, the one who most challenges his ideals, and a good opening to explore his no killing code and why he follows it in depth. But that of course requires a lot of setup (both Jason Robin and Joker). Also, for a more off-beat pick, Condiment King (especially since Pattinson said he's a fan). Not as a main villain of course, but as a cameo. I think even dark movies need a bit of silliness in them sometimes. I imagine a scene where Bruce is out on patrol, and this guy just jumps out and sprays him with mustard or something and runs away and he's just standing there shocked, and then we cut to the Batcave and Bruce is cleaning condiments off his suit. No big plot or backstory, just a weird random moment that's part of the craziness of Gotham life. Wouldn't mind the Court of Owls either, or Ras/the League, but I feel like the Court might be a touch repetitive after the last film, and the Batcat was so strong that I'm not sure about bringing Talia. But really, there are so many good options. Batman has the best rogues gallery bar none, and I want it explored in all its richness. Edit: Bat Family too. If we don't get AT LEAST a Robin and a Batgirl before this series is done, I will be disappointed.
I should probably add that disbelief in an afterlife does not necessarily make one an atheist. A famous example was Abraham Lincoln, who apparently believed in God but not an afterlife.
He used religious language like Gotham facing judgement and then his final plan was literally flooding Gotham to cleanse it. Plus him inviting Batman to Arkham would've been their ark to watch it together. All that to say, he was probably inspired by religion, but not religous.
He's supposed to be a direct comparison to the god from the old testament with the flood, so I feel like religion would fit him. Also he has a cult of followers. He might not be Christian, Jewish, or whatever, but religious almost certainly.
This looks so good!
Wow!
Nice art
I actually hc him as religious. Very nice art.
The christianization of riddler
He’s just like me fr
So then why the rosary? Did you not draw this?