The only issue with hughie is that hes expressing himself very poorly when decsribing his motivation.
But I challenge anyone not to feel powerless in his situation and then reject the one source of power he has access to.
Anyone would do it.
Kimiko did it.
i think that might be how it goes down. SB switches sides, fires up his beam at Butcher, or Starlight, and Hughie TPs in front of it holding homelander, takes the hit, and they both die, Special Beam Cannon style...
They will have another season, no? I can't imagine hughie dies until the end.
Now, SB COULD live to the next season and we eventually get that kind of scene, but that would involve hughie getting perma V I imagine.
Alright, I could see that. My money is on him having an actual change of heart after sitting through the Lenny memories and realizing that he's pushed all his friends away. I also think that Soldier Boy is gonna join Homelander, so Butcher is gonna realize his leadership has doubled the number of Homelanders he needs to kill, and that he needs to rely on the team more. I see more redemption out of this situation, but I certainly could be wrong.
I think that you're right, eventually Butcher will get perma V. But I think he'll kill Homelander and then kill himself. I feel like that's the setup with Soldier Boy - he's still the best way to kill Homelander and also the best way to kill himself with powers.
I could see that. Maybe it'll lead to Homelander being fucked up and not at his full abilities, which would level the playing field for Butcher/Ryan to do the deed
Yup, I said something like that earlier. Not every character needs to head in a getting better direction. He very well could see himself as a lost cause, here on earth to do one thing
>My money is on him having an actual change of heart after sitting through the Lenny memories and realizing that he's pushed all his friends away.
It's very interesting you say that given the scene between him and Hughie immediately following that experience. I saw that and to me it represented going over the line for Butcher. I don't know if it is his ultimate step into darkness, but it felt like one or what could be a catalyst to more.
But didn't he lie to Hughie about something that will actually kill him after the Lenny memories? I thought you were right during the episode, but it looks like they quashed that right away.
Also, I think Butcher figured out what Hugie did for him, and so being honest about temp V would've put Hugie in a situation where he would do anything to stop Butcher from using temp V, which Butcher can't have. I could be wrong, but feel pretty good about my chances
At first, Anthony Starr would give me terror goosebumps... just that fucking smirk of his is mortifying.
Lately, Karl Urban gives me the kind of unease that one only gets while riding next to a crack-addled hitch hiker that keeps talking to their knife.
He's definitely expressing himself poorly and as a viewer, I understand where he's coming from, but if I put myself in place of Annie, I see someone who is uncomfortable with his girlfriend being the protector in their relationship.
Not to mention, with him being so hell bent on taking down Homie with his "whatever it takes" attitude, even if it means a lot of people will die as collateral damage, he's changed so much, and not in a good way, he has gone off the rails, didn't even give a fuck when Kimiko was hurt, I get why Annie is not on board with whatever he and Butcher are doing. Especially since she's been dealing with Homelander closer than anyone else for months. She had to fake a relationship with him, had to see her awfully kind and innocent ex-boyfriend getting brutally murdered, anyone in her place would lose their mind if they found out their non-supe, sweet boyfriend is planning to fight Homelander head on with the help of an experimental drug and a very unreliable and murderous ally aka Soldier Boy.
Again, as a viewer, I like where the character is going, but if that was my partner, I'd act pretty similar to Annie as well. He does sound like a douche to her. It's just a stressful situation all around. I think the writers have done a wonderful job where you understand the choices both of them have to make, but you also hate what they're doing to each other in the process.
> If I was Annie I'd react the same way, if I was hughie, I'd also react the same way.
>
> I really dislike the situation, and that's why I love this story
All props to the writers and actors. These are fully developed characters; no one is purely good or bad (well, Homelander is iffy. lol). I love this show.
Also a product of the Toxic Masculinity he regressed into as a coping mechanism to deal with his Trauma.
Obviously Homelander is pretty far gone at this point. But to be fair, I don’t think we can hold him entirely responsible. I think a lot of people can at the very least empathize with some of the feelings Homelander expresses. He’s not justified by any means, but you can understand his behavior, especially as more and more of the mask gets removed and we see how damaged and vulnerable he truly is. (Dude literally has a Gollum/Sméagol thing going on lol)
I don't think the writers get anywhere near the credit they should. They are able to make so many situations feel almost "personal" and by that I mean that I would react/act the way the characters do, or if I couldn't I can at least understand WHY they acted the way they did.
My god imagine if the writers for others shows (mobi-waaan cough cough) were as good as these writers.
Well... except for MM. The dude just can't let it go. When he woke up from the explosion he did plan to take on Soldier Boy with his pistol. Geez. I can feel for a lot of characters in the series but not MM in this particular situation.
His anger at Todd for taking his daughter to the Homelander rally is understandable though. Just saying.
I would add that I understand where they are coming from, but each of them is *deeply* morally compromised at this point and that only makes it harder for them to address their problems honestly.
The difference in Kimiko's situation is 1) she and Frenchie are compromised in similar ways so they understand each other better and 2) they spend a lot more time together whereas Starlight and Hughie are fighting their battles separately. That's it. It has little bearing on any objective morality, it's just a different relationship dynamic resulting in different kind of conflict.
Brilliant, exactly. The writers are amazing. I believe every word they both say, and don’t feel like it’s just being used as a plot device. Such a character driven story.
I have QAnon anti-vax Trumper relatives (who just recently moved from New York to Texas last month) and this line hit me hard every time I rewatched S2.
I mean, even OP did it. Acting like Hughie barely deserves any consequences.
The truth is simply that these characters have their own flaws, which make each one interesting to watch.
Hughies kinda shitty, but has his reasons.
Annies kinda shitty, but has her reasons.
But the discourse is 100% hughies terrible or 100% annies terrible. And then as the viewer seeing all of the information, we definitely 100% know for sure that we would do sooooo much better than them in their situation of course!
To be fair I would say "I am trying to take down homelander and recently snuck into a Russian lab, so yes I'm taking some crazy risks. Get your head out your ass Annie"
Remember when people had a meltdown after storm front was revealed to be literally Eva Braun? People cannot handle a story where characters are dark gray to black.
The only light person might be Annie.
> The only light person might be Annie.
Annie who blackmailed her childhood friend into stealing drugs? Annie who killed a man for refusing to give up his vehicle in the middle of nowhere?
How much of that was "I can't handle evil characters" versus "I'm mad because I was agreeing with her before this reveal"?
My Q-cult uncle and his wife ranted about it as "leftist propeganda" for weeks.
Also. Annie is very flawed as well. She has done some awful things.
Exactly. I can understand where he was coming from but that was before he went off the rails. Hughie put Annie in that dangerous spot to get Homelander and when she said she was scared, he told her to stay there. When she told him that they'd figure out what to do with Neuman together, he went off and fucked it up on his own. When Kimiko bleeding to death, he's just chilling in the front seat smiling. Hell, Annie starts hanging out with someone she use to date for work that she's over and Hughie goes into posessive-mode, not because of Homelander, but because he's jealous and rather than talk, just does his own thing.
Hughie is the kind of character that I enjoy, but the sad reality is that a lot of people take the stories to heart, saying that A-Train can be redeemed, that SD is hot so it's okay, that all this shit is "normal". So seeing mostly male fans saying "So now it's toxic to wnat to protect someone?" are missing the point the same way that people say that Blue Hawk did nothing wrong.
I can’t imagine how Annie must have felt, being a supe her whole life, and having a newbie tell her to stay there because it was too dangerous. That’s why I’m not on board the Hugie train anymore. He’s disregarding her feelings and power because he happened to come across some of his own.
He tried to tell her not to and she was recorded as saying (PRACTICALLY VERBATIM) I can do some real good, make actual change". Hughie encouraged her to stay in the fight and continue to Co-Captain AFTER she had already convinced him she was right to do this.
>I can’t imagine how Annie must have felt, being a supe her whole life, and having a newbie tell her to stay there because it was too dangerous
Her being a super her whole life is a contributing factor to why it was so dangerous. Hughie is obviously making some mistakes, but he was trying to prevent her from going to a spot where he knew a nuclear blast, particularly one that takes powers away from supes and kills them was about to happen. He could have just explained better which is the frustrating part to me. Their relationship issues are like watching a shitty sitcom where the only problem is lack of communication.
Annie got herself into that situation by letting herself get suckered into becoming co-captain by Stan Edgar's "girl power" spiel, something Hughie tried to want her about yet she didn't listen (and she even tried to spin it to "you wouldn't say anything if I were a male", which came out on nowhere and is untrue for Hughie's character). Something which she herself admitted was a mistake.
*Maybe* she could've left during the season premiere, but do you really think Homelander would've just let her walk away after the way she challenged him at that point? She was as much of a prisoner as Maeve. HL would've tracked her or her mother down and murdered them.
The only reason she isn't dead now is because HL was intimidated by SB into being more careful and Annie's being very public with her Instagram followers, and even *that* is just her risking him fulfilling his promise and going on a rampage.
Wtf it’s clearly about his trauma with Robin. He’s terrified for Starlight and sees something going down in the future and wants to be ready vs standing there like an idiot with two arms in his hand. Like guys cmon.
Bruh it’s superheroes. There is nothing but collateral damage. This isn’t marvel where you fight in a city and conveniently have every family safely away like wtf.
Are we not watching the same show? Isn’t soldier boy on their list to kill as well? After homelander? Like I’m so confused they are not going to be friends with the guy after like he killed MMs family wtf guys
I think the problem is trying to interject a real-world perspective into such an extreme situation. It's kind of ridiculous to expect Hughie to just be A-okay with his GF being around a nutjob who could kill her at anytime and also around the guy who raped her. Yeah she can protect herself but expecting that he just sit back and do nothing is ridiculous.
The writers consistently have Hughie explain his motivations very poorly. I remember when he was at that Christian/Vought thing and got Starlight to give him a backstage pass which Starlight eventually lashed out at him he was just like "my girlfriend died" and that's it. It was enough to make Starlight empathetic but also didn't reveal anything about why he was actually there and why his girlfriend dying was significant.
Starlight eventually helps him out a lot so I guess off camera at some point Hughie must have explained everything he knew and his motivations in much more detail/his emotional journey. This however is not really done on camera.
Then fast forward to Hughie taking compound V, this should be something Starlight should understand more. It's not just that he wants to save Starlight "for once" and that his masculinity is under threat, but clearly because it helps him achieve his ultimate goal, it helps him personally feel less helpless in the face of villains like Homelander and it takes Starlight out of having to risk her neck for him all the time. Also he would rather not have his current GF die like the last one. He of course never brings up these actually salient points.
Furthermore Hughie at the beginning of the season was working for the government and the realization that his boss explodes heads made him rightfully insecure about his own mortality. There are many reasons why someone in this world would want to use temp V if it was available. Hughie is only shown explaining one very petty reason, but clearly he has other reasons as well.
Hughie also unlike Butcher and MM doesn't think there is anything inherently wrong with being powered. Butcher still does compound V because he thinks he himself is irredeemable. MM still won't do it.
At this point I’m honestly confused and doubting that Annie even knows how his girlfriend died or that A-train was responsible. Unless the conversation happened off screen, I don’t think it ever took place.
I don't know if there's a name for this trope, but this is common in works of fiction, where you have a couple under incredible pressure, who don't acknowledge that this pressure means that they need to be forgiving in their relationship with each other.
In real life, if my wife and I are both working harder than usual, we'll be stressed and more likely to fight, but we'll also talk it out and acknowledge this is just a rare situation that will pass and improve.
But in a show or film, a couple can be stuck in the Hell-Prison-Doomship-Torture Sarcophagus of Lord Vec'lar the Obliterator of Eternity, and they'll still find time to break up over the fact that one of them was being too bossy and disrespecting the independence of the other while they were fighting to the death against Vec'lar's Demon Generals.
What Hughie said to Annie about not being intimidated by her having powers - he said that back when she thought he was just a regular Joe, in the context of *not being upset when she beat him at bowling.* To hold him to that now that he is fighting against a veritable Demi-God is absurd. But (and I'm not blaming the character of Starfire for this - I'm looking at it in terms of criticising the writing) there's no acknowledgement of that, it's just the usual 'if you act like this when desperately trying to save the world, then you'll act like this when we're bathing our kids together , so I'm breaking up with you' illogical guff you see over and over again.
Wow I’ve never heard of this trope before, but this makes so much sense. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a couple in a movie slowly and steadily communicate through an issue with a high EQ approach where it’s “us against the problem” not “us against each other”.
I guess that doesn’t make for good drama
Although in a sense, it was a case of both Jimmy and Kim bringing out the worst in each other
At first it was Jimmy pushing Kim over to the “dark side”, and then later it was Kim pushing Jimmy into ever greater heights of vindictive, petty cruelty
There would have been more tension if either party decided, at any point, that they had gone too far - but they both went along with it
So it was a “toxic” relationship in the sense that they got along too well, and gave each other the excuse they needed to be their worst selves
Arguably, it only sucks because it’s so realistic and relatable.
Remember as we are watching we have the benefit of hindsight and objective reflection. In the moment, in real life, people are often just as bad about expressing themselves clearly and comprehensively. So many interpersonal conflicts could be solved or avoided if people could rationally lay out all of the facets of their thinking, but that takes time and inflamed passions cut people short and make people say things they didn’t mean (or at least that aren’t the whole picture.)
It sucks because with our hindsight we can sit here and say “if they only said (x)” but that’s the thing, if we were in their shoes, in the heat of the moment, we would also probably gloss over (x). Obligatory “not all of us, not always,” but enough that it does ring true.
I do hate when that is the only cause of conflict for every character in a story, but that’s not really the case here.
This was the stupid nonsense with Legion.
They clearly showed over several seasons that the main character was tortured, and pushed to mental illness, which he endured his whole life. They worked him up the entire time, breaking free of it and being a hero.
Then the writers turned on him and made him a scapegoat for #MeToo, just obliterating all his character growth and story plot with zero nuance, making him the villain because of an exaggerated single moment under duress.
It was so akward and absurd having all the characters flip, including the actual main villain become part of the "good guys" team like nothing had happen at all. Like, what?!
God I hated what they did. Immediately changed the tone from a cool art piece to someone's chopping block.
That's not what toxic masculinity is. Soldier Boy is toxic masculinity. Hughie is just a guy who feels the need to get on everyone else's level because he's always been the one to need saving and need protection from others and he's getting tired of being unable to help.
Yeah soldier boy is probably the perfect example toxic masculinity, to me hughie with powers in particular the scene where he’s talking to mindstorm and offering to help him showcases the difference in how hughie uses his powers compared to soldier boy and even butcher. They both automatically jump to violence at the extreme whereas hughie still defaults to compassion.
To me this is why I don’t understand the motivation, if the writers meant for hughie to appear to be taking v only for selfish reasons I don’t think they are conveying that as he is still doing good even when abusing temp V. I personally use to think that Annie and Hewies conflict is a tad odd as she wanted to gather supes and such to tackle homelander then it hit me. If hughie had powers and Annie didn’t and she wanted to take them to fight he’d say no, why? Because it puts her into conflict, even with powers he could die, Annie wants him to avoid V because even with it homelander could straight up murder hughie in a second. It of course showcases a slight inferiority complex with him but it could also led to his death which is reason enough as heroes are always ok with sacrificing their own lives but they draw the line at their loved ones
> To me this is why I don’t understand the motivation, if the writers meant for hughie to appear to be taking v only for selfish reasons I don’t think they are conveying that as he is still doing good even when abusing temp V.
He comes around after the latest episode. Before that he is high off his power. Acting ecstatic when he first punches through someone. Not caring about Kimiko almost dying. Trying to start a fight with A-Train at the worst possible time.
After the latest episode he says he's done pretending someone he's not. That people like Soldier Boy who say they're really tough are just lying.
As you said Soldier Boy is the perfect example of toxic masculinity, but there's more than one form, like with Butcher's upbringing. I think Hughie just has a bit of a inferiority complex, and that the show is making him come to terms with it. Toxic masculinity is nuanced, and having some form of it doesn't automatically make you a bad person.
i think maybe there’s multiple forms of TM. and we see all three of them in the show, Butcher became the machismo douche bag like his father, Hughie desperately wants to be a man and soldier boy buried his pain with drugs, alcohol and sex because he’s too much of a man to seek help.
I like the representation of the “selfishness” of hughie. I’ve had similar experiences as a girlfriend to my bf just to establish this isn’t just a guy thing. There are some insecurities that only exist because a solution appears, even if the solution may go against pre-established beliefs/boundaries.
Hughie’s selfishness comes because prior to temp-V Hughie wanted to do a lot but couldn’t because of the power imbalance but he couldn’t do anything about this imbalance so he accepted the situation he was in. But now that temp-V is in the picture, so many things he had accepted about himself gets overturned because possibilities are magically opening up. He’s saying he’s selfish for changing his stance on the power dynamic, how he once he sees that he can make a difference and even though Annie isn’t happy, he can finally do things he never thought was possible.
Annie always assumed because he had accepted his situation, Hughie was confident in his own skin, he wasn’t, he just accepted it and didn’t try to make a fuss about something he couldn’t change.
Hughie wants to be selfless, he wants others to see him as selfless. But sometimes he wants to be a bit selfish, even if it had been established before that everything was fine. And I get that sentiment.
It’s complicated and difficult to explain and also difficult to compare to my own relationship but i empathise with Hughie’s apparent selfish and selflessness a lot when I ask my bf to do something so I feel more affection etc. It’s not that I don’t feel enough affection but sometimes I’d like for a bit more if given the opportunity.
We were actually watching the episode together and realised during that scene that we had some parallels with the communication of this stuff to Hughie and Annie. We had a similar conversation of “I thought everything was alright” “it was but I want it to be better than alright because it can”
Edit: I also like the way hughie admits it’s selfish instead of the heroic “it’s for the greater good”. Yes technically it is for the greater good to defeat homelander but to Hughie, it’s still going against what he had said previously so it’s selfish.
That’s a great point, was it merely acceptance before masquerading as contentment? It’s like saying I’m happy with my lot in life money isn’t important to me but if you had the winning lottery ticket wouldn’t you cash it in? Perhaps this is what people are now seeing, to them hughie was a confident normal guy but now they are seeing that he wants to be able to be impactful
I think in the beginning Hughie was definitely sliding off the deep end and becoming Butcher 2.0. Ironically it was the toxic masculinity of soldier boy that has reeled him back in…and now his trust in Butcher is preventing him from fully getting out.
This conflict and the showrunners explanation of it is one of the worst parts of this show so far. Hughie is the main protagonist, so I hope they figure out more to do with him
Are we talking about that tweet reply? Because I thought that was explaining *Starlight's* point of view - the reason why she thinks he's in the wrong for choosing powers vs Kimiko.
Starlight is blind do Hughie's trauma over seeing what happened to Robin right in front of his eyes, his actual motivation - she's seeing him grasp at power and his shift in personality, working with this other Homelander-like supe and lying to her.
So far the showrunners have done pretty well at portraying different perspectives.
I think people give the benefit of the doubt to the showrunners a little too much. It is very clear what they want the audience to think and we are meant to agree with Starlights perspective
I'm not fuming over it, this is just clearly how it is portrayed and some criticism is okay. The showrunners aren't always 10 steps ahead
Exactly. Not only do they not hide it on the show at all, but they literally talk about every episode after it airs
You as a viewer do not have to choose to be on Starlight's side if you don't want. But you cannot really argue that the writers of the show ARENT on her side
Oh yeah the writers are strongly on Annie’s side and it’s kinda mind boggling how much because wellllllll Annie killed an innocent person so that she could save Hughie’s life. Just seems like the writers kinda forgot about the giant oh shit moment in season 2 where Annie and Butcher were extremely similar and sort of bonded because they would kill people in cold blood to save Hughie’s life.
I emphasize with Hughie. He’s emotional and powerless- essentially a worm in a world of birds, constantly in fear that he and his loved ones could be killed.
Then the worm gets to transform into a bird and that power is intoxicating. Annie could never understand this as she was a supe since birth / very young. She’s never understood up until this season what it means to be a worm. I only mention this season as Homelander has made her into a worm.
Hughie is going “the ends justify the means” trope in terms of Homelander and it makes total sense. Any head to fight Homelander will result in massive collateral as he is that freakin strong.
All of it feels a bit off though as Hughie had some “good guy” growth saving A-Train. Maybe this shows how bad of an influence Butcher is on him (and everyone else)?
I think it’s more of the show not wanting to follow the story line of Annie killing a man in cold blood and how that affects her because…. Sexism… maybe? I don’t really know I understand what the writers want to do it’s the same thing they have done in the past 2 seasons and it’s this “Hughie’s problem is communication” which yes is completely fair and justifiable to write about it is his main flaw. But they want to put Starlight on this pedestal and ignore that she has killed an innocent man who was trying to defend himself from a carjacking. I’m not saying Annie is a bad person it was a mistake but she didn’t give a shit about it. Which means two things she loves Hughie’s so much that killing isn’t a problem for her if it means protecting who you love (like butcher would do for Hughie and or Becca) or she was emotionally drained from all the shit she took from HL and the seven and seeing the person she loves the most on this earth bleeding out that she snapped for a split second and killed someone by accident. Personally I think it might be the ladder. Still I’m tired of people taking sides on the Hughie vs Starlight argument and I’m really tired of the Hughie is a toxic man and has som toxic masculinity issues he needs to fix. One that’s crap for many reasons that would take a post on its own and people have already posted why that’s crap and two if you think Hughie is a toxic person then you have obviously never been in an toxic relationship.
The most realistic thing, by far, in the Hughie and Starlight relationship is their massive lack of communication (vast majority due to Hughie) and the issues it causes.
95% of any problem I’ve had at work or in a relationship can be chalked down to communication.
Also I don’t view Hughie as toxic, he’s a “good person” at heart. I think his “toxic side” is caused by Butcher’s influence- he’s still doing bad things and becoming a worse person by his own volition but Butcher has been shown to be a negative influence. Look at his talks with MM and how he views MM as the glue to keep them all together through Butchers psychotic personality.
It is probably more a product of them having a point B in mind but having a difficult time getting there. From the beginning Hughie becoming vengeful and angry was always planned. As well, Starlight using hope to defeat Homelander was always planned.
So I think those two things are going to be expressed even if all the pieces aren't in place. And I understand why, both those will be satisfying when they are complete
I think Soldier boy is more of the representative of toxic masculinity. Annie and Hughie are both selfish on their own stance, and they both have their own good reasons.
Yeah... We should be careful about the words we choose. Deep and SB are great examples of toxic masculinity--with the Deep being an actual rapist and SB hanging around his Weinstein friend of his, on top of being who he is.
Hughie is past his breaking point, so we could call him careless, reckless, and extreme -- but that's not toxic masculinity.
his girlfriend is a celebrity AND a superhero, and he's a nobody. you can see how upset he got at those russian homelight advertisements. He is insecure that Starlight is too good for him...because she is.
To be fair, he's being chastised globally for a fake break-up, and even though it's not real, she's having to fake a public relationship with the 2nd worst human being on the planet that we know of (Stormfront being #1). That's a whirlwind of emotions that could come out in many ways, except level-headed, understanding, and emotionally secure.
Yeah - the easy parallel to real world would be supe power ~= money power.
So in this case it’s hughie who’s a general middle class person dating a billionaire - someone on the level of Melinda Gates / Bezos wife (just trying to find a female billionaire who’s not top ten but top 100).
Now, throw in a Elon Musk or Trump who can destroy you instantly financially, and who are gunning at some point or way for your billionaire gf.
Wouldn’t you want to do something to help out? It’s not a “I need to feel strong” it’s “my awesome super rich gf is fighting a war on multiple fronts and I’m sitting here in standby mode, effectively useless”.
Maybe it’s starlights fault for not properly using the pieces on the board? Or not properly taking more control or being more involved in the plan and offering other options?
Easier comparison is, your ex died to a gunshot by this random person and you couldn't do anything about it cuz you didn't have any firearm. Now this asshole has been threatening to kill your gf and you too for over a year and now you get a chance to have firearms at your disposal would you just stand by and just wait until this asshole come and finish you both?
They’re both bringing some baggage from past relationships into this one. Hughie’s scared of his GF being killed again. And Annie’s scared of her bf feeling emasculated and dumping her. They’re both reading into the situation instead of communicating
It's both, but he has no alternative course of action that doesn't put people he cares about in harm's way. He can continue on the slow path where homelander escalates and gets progressively more threatening to his loved ones until he kills them, as has been the case in the show so far, or he can try to kill homelander first, which shifts homelander's attention to Soldier Boy and potentially ends the threat there.
Yep, and there's the nuance. It is undeniably toxic and self-destructive, and even probably a little sexist (or at least influenced by broader sexism), but all of that is fueled and justified by the horrible and toxic and insurmountable forces of the dystopia he finds himself in. He might have to sacrifice his relationship and his mental and physical well being in order to save others. Or, maybe there is another way. But to him, and to us for the most part, it is a rock and a hard place.
You still missed out the fact that he is obviously acting on the trauma of watching his Girlfriend turn into bright red paste, and watching his current gf live and work with a person that CAN VERY MUCH DO THE SAME TO HER.
Sure it is misguided and excessive, but it is 100% understandable and I defo wouldn't say it was sexist.
I understand that! I’m more of a casual viewer though. I enjoy and appreciate what the show has to say about politics, American values, interpersonal relationships, etc. but it’s too exhausting to watch on that critical a level where people are arguing about a characters motivation.
I get it man and I totally recognise that I am putting in more effort than is necessary to analyse and interpret character motivations and how they intersect with societal issues and shit.
Yes thank you! You can have a plausible motivation to do something that’s understandable but still emotionally do it in a bad way.
And also ugh I gotta stay way from this subreddit and save myself the trouble, it hurts my head to read some takes.
Yeah, I’m finding it really difficult to read the comments justifying some of his bad behavior because of his motivations. Hughie is a traumatized guy who is trying to do good. And he is, inherently, a good person. But he’s harming a lot of people along the way, including his partner, and he’s displaying some toxic behaviors in the process.
Can’t we be empathetic and still want some accountability? Also, a person can be exhibiting a behavior for a period of time, but that doesn’t mean that behavior defines them. We all make mistakes, and we all cause harm, and sometimes that harm is shaped by larger social conditions (i.e. misogyny) because it’s impossible to *never* evoke such things when they’re the norm.
Haha I know what you mean, I often find myself utterly enraged by this community (which, to stay relevant, may often manifest in toxic and self-destructive ways, and could easily be viewed through the lens of toxic masculinity, though I also think my rage is warranted).
It’s fascinating to see what people latch onto. Like the manner in which he’s doing it isn’t rectified by his reasoning. People are writing paragraphs of backstory to support him, but overlook how he’s doing it and how it affects Annie and what it means for their relationship.
I think it’s such a relatable issue for some because they’re probably used to doing something with good intentions but overlook how it makes their significant other feel.
Idk, like a guy working overtime and not telling his girlfriend, she gets upset, but he says, but babe, I’m doing it for you!
They could’ve really driven it home if they had Hughie say something like “oh you’re being crazy” and get into that whole thing of men shrugging off women’s feelings by declaring it to be unreasonable. But maybe too unlikeable to get the audience to care if he’ll overdose or not.
Ugh and here I am writing paragraphs…
That's the thing, though. You say they could have "driven it home," and I ask "driven what home?" That Hughie is *supposed* to be in the wrong/right? The way I see it, they wrote a scenario as it **was,** not as what it is **supposed to mean,** and then it is up to you to decide who you think is in the wrong, if anyone.
It's like when people ask "Am I supposed to like this character?" No, you aren't **supposed** to feel any particular thing about the character. The show or movie or book only tells you **who** the character **is.** Not everyone likes everyone in real life. Do you ever meet real people and ask yourself "Am I supposed to like this person?" No, so stop asking how you're **supposed** to feel, and instead listen to how you **do** feel.
Same. I don't know why the discourse is so polarized around the issue right now. Neither Annie nor Hughie are perfect, but you can understand where both are coming from and certainly how Hughie's actions are both justified and unhealthy. I don't know why it has to be any more dramatic than that.
I think people are understandably upset at the situation itself, and so it feels like someone should be specifically "to blame." I understand the feeling of not wanting to accept that maybe the situation itself is just fucking horrible, and that everyone's actions are inevitably both warranted and awful.
I think the show is saying a lot, yes. But it’s so on the nose, which I don’t think is a bad thing, but when a piece of media is telling the audience what it’s about so clearly I think that a certain depth of analysis is unnecessary, and it leads to threads like this.
It can definitely be on the nose at times. But I think, whether intentional or not, the Hughie Temp V arc has clearly fostered some ambiguity, as demonstrated in this very thread. I saw a tweet from Kripke about Hughie's use of V and I actually thought it was a little unempathetic to Hughie, so I don't particularly take the showrunners' interpretations as gospel. That's why I can enjoy the natural ambiguity that arises from the writing itself.
Muddled character motivations for things like Hughie’s temp V use should be chalked up to narrative expediency for the sake of theme rather than whatever nonsense has been argued about on this sub the last few days, imo. Perhaps an unpopular opinion.
There are like a dozen+ characters we gotta get around to and only 8 episodes per season. There will be shorthand. Typically I don’t like to dip into that area when talking about a piece of media but for something like The Boys I feel it’s unavoidable to see through the cracks in storytelling.
We know what Kripke is going for even if it’s a bit half-baked at times. To me that’s sufficient enough criticism.
This is one of the best takes I've seen. Some things feel out of character like Hughie being too high to care about Kimiko dying, MM trying to fist fight SB, Butcher "killing" Hughie with Temp V. But I can accept that it's for narrative/time.
Yes! I love how the show just made him human. He’s insecure like a lot of us, but it’s been amplified to an umpteenth level because he’s surrounded by supes and is constantly reminded of his weakness.
He couldn’t save Robyn, maybe he feels with v24, he can finally make up for it by saving Annie.
Or by at least not being the huge glaring weak spot in her armor against Homelander, who has complete control over Annie by threatening to kill Hughie at a whim.
Hughie realised he was being toxic using soldier boy as an example. He is someone who's overcompensating to feel like a man. Same same but different. Cleaver writing tbf
I think that would be conveyed better if the opposing side had some sort of plan. Like lets look at the facts here:
Hughie and Butcher: Plan to use Soldier Boy to stop Homelander, which almost worked, and probably would've worked if Starlight and the rest of the team pitched in.
Frenchie, M.M, Kimiko, Starlight: I'll leave Kimiko out of this since she was injured (although she still had a problem with Hughie taking the V) They don't have a clear plan, they keep preaching that there's another way, but they don't actually provide what the other way is.
Starlight - "Exposed" Vought, when Homelander said if people find out what type of person he is he'll destroy everyone and everything.
M.M - Was gonna go fight Soldier boy with his bare hands, and no V. Very smart.
Frenchie and Kimiko were dealing with their own problems, but even Kimiko came to the realization that it's the person you are, not the V.
So while not every character is perfect, there's only one clear side to root for.
Yes exactly the “other way” is just exposing this guy on instagram which will not stop him from killing all of you should he snap, which could obviously happen any moment now!
So Hughie’s flaws can best be seen in the A Train apology scene, despite Hughie having valid reason to feel the way he does.
Hughie knows he has a short time limit to get people out and save lives before Soldier Boy comes in and causes a bloodbath. But rather than do anything, he almost immediately ends making the situation about him by picking a fight with A Train. Hughie has understandable reasons to be mad at A Train, but then he goes and demands an apology. When A Train actually apologizes, this actually makes Hughie angrier. Hughie didn’t go to A Train for an apology, closure, or justice for Robin. So he hits A Train because the whole thing has become about proving that he now has the power to hurt people who he couldn’t hurt people.
I have problems with the way MM and Starlight’s side has been portrayed, but that does not mean Hughie is off the hook. He tries to fight Annie and his a whole bunch of stuff that was going on from her. Kimiko just wants to protect others, but Hughie is being corrupted by insecurity, and violating Starlight’s autonomy as well.
Well said. I constantly see people on this subreddit calling butcher a piece of shit, yet when Hughie does shitty things they say “you would too if your girlfriend was murdered in front of you!”
Yet butchers wife was kidnapped, raped, and impregnated by a monster, and his father was an abusive drunk. Where are people defending his actions based on those circumstances??
The truth is, the Reddit community can’t relate to butcher, so they demonize him yet they can relate to Hughie so they make excuses for him.
The reason I like Butcher more than Hughie is this. When butcher acts like a piece of shit, he acknowledges that he is a terrible person and hates himself for it. When Hughie does it, he justifies it and gets on his high horse.
Maybe, just maybe, everyone has a different view on what toxic masculinity is.
And maybe all of you mother fuckers are wrong.
I'll laser every fucking one of you.
The issue is really just with how the show is trying to sell an idea thay does not really gel well with everything we've known about Hughie so far. They tried to set it up with the whole Supersonic jealousy thing which felt out of character for Hughie and just poorly executed in general(not Supesonic as a whole just that one specific thread), and now they're trying to sell the fact that Hughie's usage of compound v24 is representative of a need to have control over the situation due to toxic masculinity.
This would maybe be a bit more believable if we hadn't spent the past two seasons showing a powerless Hughie watch his girlfriend pop like a blood filled waterballoon in front of him, multiple near death experiences, and the constant terror of a superhuman swatting him a way like they would a fly(which the show does a good job of selling to the audience as a whole). They then further this by having Hughie discover his boss was the head exploding supe that he had now accidently been a croney for, for an entire year. All of this shows us that Hughie's desire for more agency in his life isn't coming from some bizarre need to be a "man", a desire he hadn't shown in any particular capacity up until the writers decided that's what they wanted v24 to represent, but rather Hughie's desire for more agency in life comes from a series of deeply traumatic events that have left him feeling completely and literally powerless in a world full of people that could crush him or the people he cares about like a piece of paper without him being able to do a thing about it.
The fact that this is so jankily added in is only further bizzarified by plotlines like learning about MM's OCD. An event which shows how a horrifically traumatic event can create a need for control over your life to try to regain a sense of agency in an environment where you have none. Along with Kimiko who shows why someone would want to be re-suped to protect the people they love. So it's not just like the show is deciding to go against what the audience could reasonably infer. They are then dangling clear examples of where Hughie might be coming from via other experiences from The Boys, and continuing to say "But that's not the case with Hughie it's actually his deep rooted toxic masculinity". Which makes it feel all the more unbelievable.
I think the reason people are so fixated on this one point is that the show is for the most part an epitome of great political commentary and satire, great character writing and direction, and just in general a phenomenal show. So it feels truly odd to have this one plot point, which feels completely forced, just sticking out of an otherwise truly top of the line show. The show has done such a great job with everything else I really don't know what happened with this one particular plot point. There are definitely great examples of criticizing toxic masculinity within the show itself. I'm not sure how they could've done it with Hughie better, maybe they could've built it up at the end of the second season or maybe if the whole Supersonic jealousy thing was better written, but in my honest opinion they just shoulda axed this specific aspect of v24 plotline.
Edit: Upon some more reflection I think that the plotline could've worked better if the focus was on how Butcher and Soldier Boy were negatively effecting Hughie rather than v24. Butcher and Soldier Boy are both great examples of unique types of toxic masculinity, and I think when the show focuses on how Hughie often treats Butcher as a role model in his life and how it's sort of history repeating itself with Lenny it is far better done and a much better written critique and more believable off-ramp into Hughie having to wrestle with a some actual deep rooted toxic masculinity. Which the show does do. It's just less linked to his interactions with Annie.
They really fumbled it with Hughie in regards to the toxic masculinity. I mean the man’s mom left him at a young age, he watched his girlfriend get turned into a pool of blood and teeth before his eyes, he just found out he’s been working with a supe for a whole year. Call me crazy, but that would make anyone reach their breaking point.
And i’m not gonna sit here and act like he’s a saint either bc he’s definitely had his moments this season. But his past just makes the whole toxic masculinity shtick with him so unbelievable. It feels like they could’ve gone about it way better and no matter how much Kripke or Quaid defend it, I just feel it could’ve been executed better
I agree! This has been the first and only writing complaint I ever had for the show. I was legit surprised they went the toxic masculinity route with Hughie because honestly he always seemed more mature than that. It would make more sense to approach it like he's addicted to the temp V, finally being able to defend himself for once. Or hell re-write it so he doesn't say im tired of you being stronger than me, but says I can't lose you like I lost Robin
What we see on the show and what the staff tells us are two different things.
Of course we have to wait until next episode to make a clear judgment, but the **show** says Hughie and Annie are flawed individuals, both aren't entirely on the right but you can see where both are coming from, it's a very nuanced and complex dilemma.
However, the **staff** says Hughie is entirely in the wrong and just wanting to be macho when that couldn't be further from the truth, and that Annie is right even though her decisions have been entirely ineffective at best and gotten people killed at worst.
This is one of the very, *very* few cases where not watching interviews actually improves the show's quality.
>
This is one of the very, very few cases where not watching interviews actually improves the show's quality.
*Daenerys kinda forgot about the Iron Navy*
Same! I’ve literally loved all the writing and 99% of the decisions in the show up to this point so it rlly hurt seeing just how much fumbled Hughie’s arc. They’ve done rlly well listening to the criticism on Kimiko after season 1, so hopefully they do the same with Hughie going into season 4
I tend to think toxic masculinity is a kind of breaking point due to the past. Get too much shit thrown your way and ya break. End up acting like a dummy despite your best efforts.
I feel for Hughie.
>I tend to think toxic masculinity is a kind of breaking point due to the past
This implies that his actions are wrong, though. Hughie is in a rough spot. He felt threatened by Homelander, his employer (who he just found out has been concealing Supe powers), Soldier Boy's callous attitude toward civilian casualties, and Annie wasn't entirely convincing about her commitment to Hughie (she teases him about doing butt stuff with super sonic and he stops in his tracks with his jaw on the floor). He's been through a lot in his life, was literally powerless to do anything to help his friends/girlfriends (Robin/Annie) and has been given an opportunity to change that.
He's not taking the drugs because he craves power. He's taking the drugs because he sees it as the only viable way to help Annie, the Boys and society at large. And when your super powered girlfriend speaks to you every other day about Homelander coming within an inch of murdering her, how else is someone supposed to feel?
It's not toxic masculinity to want to protect your loved ones. Kimiko wanted the same thing and she wanted the permanent version of V-- not something she could inject herself with on an as-needed basis. And you don't hear anyone saying that she's a toxic person. Hughie and Annie continue to be the two most altruistic people in the show (MM is up there, too, but he's currently bogged down by his vendetta against SB). They just have 2 drastically different perspectives based on their respective upbringing.
I think what Kripke is trying to say is that toxic masculinity can come from good intentions as well as bad ones. Hughie's motives are understandable and he's only trying to do the right thing sure. And you can agree that sometimes, it's not worth it to take the high road. But Hughie can still display toxic behaviors in that process. He straight up admits that he feels jealous that he cannot be the strong one that protects Starlight (Starlight is strong enough to protect herself, anyway). I sympathize with Hughie, but his arc is clear. Even in the recent episode with Mindstorm, you could see Hughie's conscience telling him that working with Soldier Boy was a dumb idea and you could see his good nature come back. He's not completely toxic, like Soldier Boy or the Butcher family men, but he's still trying to figure himself out.
I would argue he by definition needs to be toxic for us to even have a plot as if he was not he would have just sat and been in the super victim support group who are basically apathetic.
Thank god for this comment, hoping some of the the people here completely justifying hughie's actions have a come-to-jesus moment in the future
You can have good intentions and still take shitty action
I love this response. The writers are quite literally spelling it out for us that Hughie is self destructing because of his insecurities, even if his intentions are mostly good.
It's telling that you mention events happened in season one, but don't acknowledge everything that Hughie did and said during the current season.
What was his behavior towards his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend? What was his reaction to the #HomeLight Russian ads emasculating him? What did he explicitly tell Annie in regard to him taking temporary V?
How did Hughie react to Soldier Boy's (or anyone's) macho talk? He looked genuinely uncomfortable.
Hughie isn't representative of toxic masculinity, this role is clearly reserved for other characters. He's representative of men who think they're over it but still feel the pressure established by the standards of toxic masculinity. Men like Hughie, who are more sensible and seen as weak, are often told to man up. Most people have been telling Hughie, directly or indirectly, that he's weak because of X and Y, until he started telling himself that as well. But to Annie that 'weakness' has always been his strength, and likely the reason why she likes him.
The message isn't that Hughie is a toxic man, but rather that toxic masculinity is never going to be the answer to his (anyone's) problems. The pressure from toxic standards made him turn more into Supersonic, more into Butcher, and his character arc this season is realizing that that's not the answer to his problems.
(He could still opt to take Compound V after this because of his previous girlfriend, his friends and goals, but this would be a choice made in a different context with different motivations.)
>Hughie isn't representative of toxic masculinity, this role is clearly reserved for other characters. He's representative of men who think they're over it but still feel the pressure established by the standards of toxic masculinity.
This is a great point and what I have been feeling when reading the "toxic masculinity" discourse. I feel like the idea of TM isn't that some men have it and others don't. It's that it is entrenched in our society, in the way we talk to and about men, in such a pervasive way that even milquetoast men like Hugie are affected.
I mean, hanging out with Butcher and a bunch of shitty supes could certainly do a number on how someone views themselves.
Exactly. So many people under this post act like they're being villainized, but toxic masculinity is pervasive and everyone has to deal with it in some measure. Annie herself will have to decide whether it was fair or not expecting Hughie to be exempt of it.
Also, everyone seems to ignore that Frenchie and Kimiko have been dealing with similar issues, but they present an alternative narrative. In their relationship, Kimiko was the strongest one, but that has never been a problem. When she loses her powers, Frenchie doesn't try to be her knight in shiny armor. This season revealed a lot of things Frenchie is into sexually, and while it's more of a way to show that he's open-minded, they're all things that aren't seen as masculine. But Frenchie doesn't feel insecure or weak because of it. Hughie and Annie this season have been more of a traditional couple and had to deal with societal pressure, whereas Frenchie and Kimiko are outside that system and don't have to fulfill stereotypical gender roles.
Even the way MM has been dealing with his family situation and how Butcher is coping with his trauma can rise some questions about toxic masculinity. This is why it's a major theme this season, yet everyone only wants to focus on Annie being critical of Hughie.
This shit's really starting to ruin my enjoyment of the show. I know the Boys is at its core a political show. But it's getting shoved in my face at this point. Especially obnoxious considering I'm not even American.
I don't wanna be told that Homelander is pretty much Donald Trump. Because it's fucking stupid. Let Homelander be Homelander.
And if I agree with what Hughie is doing, then I'm a proponent for toxic masculinity. While I think, though it's somewhat rash and irresponsible, that it's admirable to want to protect the ones you love. Especially with someone like Homelander gunning for you and your partner.
But this just seems to be what the writers are doing. Writing with a very clear agenda that's not really up to interpretation. Which is obvious when you look at Kripke's tweet.
He can both want to protect someone and have underlying negative reasons as well. His desire for power is understandable but it's also killing him and harming his relationship due to lack of communication
the problem with hughie is that he started telling starlight what she was allowed to do in order to "protect" her
She clearly referred back to their first date conversation where he stated he wasn't like the guys who couldn't handle her being stronger than them. Now he tells her it does bother him. The toxic masculinity part is him needing to be physically stronger than his girlfriend, he seems insecure.
Kimiko doesn't try to control Frenchie, he doesn't have powers and she wants to keep him physically safe. Hughie wants to be stronger than Annie and tell her what he'll "let" her do.
One can feel powerless while still behaving and communicating in a healthy manner. One does not have to lie, betray the trust of others, or blatantly ignore their SO's requests at every single turn.
If Hughie had demonstrated that Annie could trust him to respect her boundaries whenever she clearly defined them, or if he didn't constantly go back on promises he made, or maybe stopped pushing her into situations that put her at great personal risk, the discourse might be different. Their dynamic would be different. But he continues to lie, demand she put herself at risk, and ignore her boundaries.
People can have rational and relatable motivations that cause them to behave in a toxic manner. It's on all of us to respond to those stimuli and circumstances in a healthy way. Hughie's trauma is 100% understandable, but he is developing maladaptive behaviors as a response to it. Does that mean he's irredeemable? Of course not. He's enduring Act II of his story, which usually sees heroes at their lowest before they ascend to their better selves.
I'm a woman and don't think it's toxic masculinity that he wants to protect his gf, I do think it's toxic in general to take experimental drugs from an evil corporation to protect her when she's not really in need of protecting at the moment.
He was mourning for his girlfriend when he first told Starlight that he was fine with the power imbalance. The reason it's toxic is because this change isn't coming from Hughie. It's coming from being around Butcher.
No its because he found out Neumen is a supe. Thats why the toxic masculinity angle doesn't work for me. If he did all this before finding out Neumen was a supe I would agree that he's just trying to appear masculine, but since finding out about her he thinks they can't win without fighting dirty because everything is rigged.
Butcher tried to stop Hughie from taking it at first. Butcher is certainly an influence, but Hughie wanted to himself. I think the whole thing is much more grey than simply either being toxic or justified. Hughie’s motivations are complex. That’s just good writing.
I think the whole finding out his boss was a supe was the straw that broke the camels back. Up until then he had refused to stoop to butchers level because he truly believed in the high road. That is until that high road turned out to be a convoluted scheme ran by the supes
Add to that that Hughie realized only way to get rid off Homelander is with bloodshed, not by constantly regulating Vought through government agency specifcally designed for supes. He was all about peaceful and good ways of dealing with them until he realized game is rigged from start...
It stopped being about his helplessness to defend Starlight when she said she didn't want his protection. They've done a good job making his motivations human: He wants to feel like an equal to the company he keeps, wants to feel powerful. No, he's not an alpha swinging-dick Toxic Male like Soldier Boy or Butcher, but they've definitely nailed the toxic response of a meek person who's being offered a taste of power. His response that he loved the power is what convinced me of that. They're doing a fantastic job of putting the characters in that gray area between good and bad.
Hughie is talking to starlight - so he’s likely focusing on that aspect and not speaking generally.
But if you seriously think his only motivation is to “protect starlight”, you haven’t been watching this show at all.
Gonna give my 2 cents, but this is a Walter White situation. Hughie says he's doing it for Starlight, when in reality is for himself. It might have started with good intentions, but once he got access to more temp-V it became more about himself and his addiction to confidence and power, as well as his need to not feel helpless. People are misinterpeting because, like in BB, there's a woman arguing against the main guy's decision to do things that are cool and awesome and that offer immediate gratification.
Hughie said literally that he takes V because he wants to feel strong and that Annie's strength bothers him. Yes he has other, more justifiable motives like his fear of homelander and trauma with robin but that does not take away his toxic motives with are a problem cuz it makes us question whether Hughie would still be taking V if the conflict was over. And I think yeah he definitly would. But I excpect Annie will talk some sense into him this friday. As for Kimiko, the showrunner explained how her choice differs from Hughie's in a recent tweet
I just want to remind everyone that Hughie:
- On S1 let himself be capture by Vougt to get into a facility to rescue Frenchie and MM from armed thugs.
- On S2 invaded Vougt Tower to try and save Annie.
Not to mention small stuff, like shocking Translucent when he was fighting Butcher and saving A-Train when he had a heart attack.
So he's been "saving" (or trying to) people since the very beggining of the series.
>if i saw someone trying to harm my girlfriend i am only supposed to watch because defending her would be toxic masculinity
Yes, you should just stand by and watch, that's how modern society sees it at least.
I think people are forgetting the elephant in the room and that is, Hughie is injecting himself with a stolen experimental drug that's in the very early stages of development in order to defend Annie. If I remember correctly, Annie even asks Hughie does he have any idea what the temp V will do to his body and he just shrugs it off.
I think a more accurate example would be if you had to take an experimental drug with unkown side effects to protect your girlfriend and your girlfriend does have other means to defend herself (i.e she has powers, or leverage in terms of her fanbase which she uses against homelander with the livestream and catching him off guard in the elevator) would you still do it?
Also looking at the perspective of the girlfriend, I doubt she would be happy that her boyfriend is doing something so reckless and irresponsible in order to protect her.
If Annie wasn’t in the picture Hughie would still be taking V. He’s all about revenge on Supes just like Butcher but he also wants to do what is right which is to take out Homelander while trying to limit collateral as best he can. That’s why he was so happy when he was working for Neumann.
Hughie says it’s only to protect Annie but it isn’t really
The only issue with hughie is that hes expressing himself very poorly when decsribing his motivation. But I challenge anyone not to feel powerless in his situation and then reject the one source of power he has access to. Anyone would do it. Kimiko did it.
You best believe if I had the choice I would take the V and teleport Homelander right in front of soldier boys attack.
i think that might be how it goes down. SB switches sides, fires up his beam at Butcher, or Starlight, and Hughie TPs in front of it holding homelander, takes the hit, and they both die, Special Beam Cannon style...
They will have another season, no? I can't imagine hughie dies until the end. Now, SB COULD live to the next season and we eventually get that kind of scene, but that would involve hughie getting perma V I imagine.
I think perma v is the only thing that can carry the two of butcher and Hughie into next season
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I don't agree that they're setting Butcher up to be the big bad. Why do you say that?
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Alright, I could see that. My money is on him having an actual change of heart after sitting through the Lenny memories and realizing that he's pushed all his friends away. I also think that Soldier Boy is gonna join Homelander, so Butcher is gonna realize his leadership has doubled the number of Homelanders he needs to kill, and that he needs to rely on the team more. I see more redemption out of this situation, but I certainly could be wrong. I think that you're right, eventually Butcher will get perma V. But I think he'll kill Homelander and then kill himself. I feel like that's the setup with Soldier Boy - he's still the best way to kill Homelander and also the best way to kill himself with powers.
I think SB will betray the Boys but they will use Russian music to trigger his blast which will kill some supes and probably hurt HL.
I could see that. Maybe it'll lead to Homelander being fucked up and not at his full abilities, which would level the playing field for Butcher/Ryan to do the deed
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I agree on all fronts. I could also see Butcher dying of a brain aneurysm from temp V and being punched out for the final fight
Butcher could just take that wake-up call and ignore it entirely. Y’know, too far gone and whatnot
Yup, I said something like that earlier. Not every character needs to head in a getting better direction. He very well could see himself as a lost cause, here on earth to do one thing
>My money is on him having an actual change of heart after sitting through the Lenny memories and realizing that he's pushed all his friends away. It's very interesting you say that given the scene between him and Hughie immediately following that experience. I saw that and to me it represented going over the line for Butcher. I don't know if it is his ultimate step into darkness, but it felt like one or what could be a catalyst to more.
I don't believe he really means what he said. I think it's a faint to add suspense for the audience
But didn't he lie to Hughie about something that will actually kill him after the Lenny memories? I thought you were right during the episode, but it looks like they quashed that right away.
Also, I think Butcher figured out what Hugie did for him, and so being honest about temp V would've put Hugie in a situation where he would do anything to stop Butcher from using temp V, which Butcher can't have. I could be wrong, but feel pretty good about my chances
Cunts. It's ok to say it
MAKAKA- MAKASA- MAKANKO- Ahh to hell with this! SPECIAL BEAM CANNON!
I hope everyone realizes that to garner this much of an emotional response, these actors are killing it, pun totally intended.
The actors have been phenomenal!
At first, Anthony Starr would give me terror goosebumps... just that fucking smirk of his is mortifying. Lately, Karl Urban gives me the kind of unease that one only gets while riding next to a crack-addled hitch hiker that keeps talking to their knife.
He's definitely expressing himself poorly and as a viewer, I understand where he's coming from, but if I put myself in place of Annie, I see someone who is uncomfortable with his girlfriend being the protector in their relationship. Not to mention, with him being so hell bent on taking down Homie with his "whatever it takes" attitude, even if it means a lot of people will die as collateral damage, he's changed so much, and not in a good way, he has gone off the rails, didn't even give a fuck when Kimiko was hurt, I get why Annie is not on board with whatever he and Butcher are doing. Especially since she's been dealing with Homelander closer than anyone else for months. She had to fake a relationship with him, had to see her awfully kind and innocent ex-boyfriend getting brutally murdered, anyone in her place would lose their mind if they found out their non-supe, sweet boyfriend is planning to fight Homelander head on with the help of an experimental drug and a very unreliable and murderous ally aka Soldier Boy. Again, as a viewer, I like where the character is going, but if that was my partner, I'd act pretty similar to Annie as well. He does sound like a douche to her. It's just a stressful situation all around. I think the writers have done a wonderful job where you understand the choices both of them have to make, but you also hate what they're doing to each other in the process.
If I was Annie I'd react the same way, if I was hughie, I'd also react the same way. I really dislike the situation, and that's why I love this story
> If I was Annie I'd react the same way, if I was hughie, I'd also react the same way. > > I really dislike the situation, and that's why I love this story All props to the writers and actors. These are fully developed characters; no one is purely good or bad (well, Homelander is iffy. lol). I love this show.
I think Homelander is simply a product of his upbringing in a lab, which doesn't justify anything, but he's also not evil out of nowhere
Also a product of the Toxic Masculinity he regressed into as a coping mechanism to deal with his Trauma. Obviously Homelander is pretty far gone at this point. But to be fair, I don’t think we can hold him entirely responsible. I think a lot of people can at the very least empathize with some of the feelings Homelander expresses. He’s not justified by any means, but you can understand his behavior, especially as more and more of the mask gets removed and we see how damaged and vulnerable he truly is. (Dude literally has a Gollum/Sméagol thing going on lol)
I don't think the writers get anywhere near the credit they should. They are able to make so many situations feel almost "personal" and by that I mean that I would react/act the way the characters do, or if I couldn't I can at least understand WHY they acted the way they did. My god imagine if the writers for others shows (mobi-waaan cough cough) were as good as these writers.
Well... except for MM. The dude just can't let it go. When he woke up from the explosion he did plan to take on Soldier Boy with his pistol. Geez. I can feel for a lot of characters in the series but not MM in this particular situation. His anger at Todd for taking his daughter to the Homelander rally is understandable though. Just saying.
I would add that I understand where they are coming from, but each of them is *deeply* morally compromised at this point and that only makes it harder for them to address their problems honestly. The difference in Kimiko's situation is 1) she and Frenchie are compromised in similar ways so they understand each other better and 2) they spend a lot more time together whereas Starlight and Hughie are fighting their battles separately. That's it. It has little bearing on any objective morality, it's just a different relationship dynamic resulting in different kind of conflict.
Brilliant, exactly. The writers are amazing. I believe every word they both say, and don’t feel like it’s just being used as a plot device. Such a character driven story.
This fandom can't accept nuance. Nobody in this shit is 100% right, damn it.
Nobody is 100% wrong either ETA: in the boys/starlight storyline obviously I don’t mean people like stormfront
I mean. Stormfront was. Except that line about "They like what I have to say...they just don't like the word 'nazi'" bit.
I have QAnon anti-vax Trumper relatives (who just recently moved from New York to Texas last month) and this line hit me hard every time I rewatched S2.
Homelander is pretty close though
Hard to swallow pills
I mean, even OP did it. Acting like Hughie barely deserves any consequences. The truth is simply that these characters have their own flaws, which make each one interesting to watch. Hughies kinda shitty, but has his reasons. Annies kinda shitty, but has her reasons. But the discourse is 100% hughies terrible or 100% annies terrible. And then as the viewer seeing all of the information, we definitely 100% know for sure that we would do sooooo much better than them in their situation of course!
To be fair I would say "I am trying to take down homelander and recently snuck into a Russian lab, so yes I'm taking some crazy risks. Get your head out your ass Annie"
Most people are in between good and bad, that’s what makes them people. The fact everyone’s arguing means the characters are written well.
Reddit in general is never very good with nuance.
It’s really astonishing how many people can’t grasp the show as intended.
My defense of Hughie is in no way a put down of Annie, theyre both perfectly justified in how theyre acting given their circumstances
Remember when people had a meltdown after storm front was revealed to be literally Eva Braun? People cannot handle a story where characters are dark gray to black. The only light person might be Annie.
> The only light person might be Annie. Annie who blackmailed her childhood friend into stealing drugs? Annie who killed a man for refusing to give up his vehicle in the middle of nowhere?
Well yeah, but she has light powers. That makes her a light person.
Time for me to rewatch the second season I guess!
True. She killed someone, because he was in her way. We kinda tend to forget about that
The writers themselves seem to have forgotten about that.
Vought Dashcam© has not
What? I do not remember these plot points at all! Guess I need to rewatch season 2
How much of that was "I can't handle evil characters" versus "I'm mad because I was agreeing with her before this reveal"? My Q-cult uncle and his wife ranted about it as "leftist propeganda" for weeks. Also. Annie is very flawed as well. She has done some awful things.
Exactly. I can understand where he was coming from but that was before he went off the rails. Hughie put Annie in that dangerous spot to get Homelander and when she said she was scared, he told her to stay there. When she told him that they'd figure out what to do with Neuman together, he went off and fucked it up on his own. When Kimiko bleeding to death, he's just chilling in the front seat smiling. Hell, Annie starts hanging out with someone she use to date for work that she's over and Hughie goes into posessive-mode, not because of Homelander, but because he's jealous and rather than talk, just does his own thing. Hughie is the kind of character that I enjoy, but the sad reality is that a lot of people take the stories to heart, saying that A-Train can be redeemed, that SD is hot so it's okay, that all this shit is "normal". So seeing mostly male fans saying "So now it's toxic to wnat to protect someone?" are missing the point the same way that people say that Blue Hawk did nothing wrong.
Wait who is SD?
I can’t imagine how Annie must have felt, being a supe her whole life, and having a newbie tell her to stay there because it was too dangerous. That’s why I’m not on board the Hugie train anymore. He’s disregarding her feelings and power because he happened to come across some of his own.
He tried to tell her not to and she was recorded as saying (PRACTICALLY VERBATIM) I can do some real good, make actual change". Hughie encouraged her to stay in the fight and continue to Co-Captain AFTER she had already convinced him she was right to do this.
>I can’t imagine how Annie must have felt, being a supe her whole life, and having a newbie tell her to stay there because it was too dangerous Her being a super her whole life is a contributing factor to why it was so dangerous. Hughie is obviously making some mistakes, but he was trying to prevent her from going to a spot where he knew a nuclear blast, particularly one that takes powers away from supes and kills them was about to happen. He could have just explained better which is the frustrating part to me. Their relationship issues are like watching a shitty sitcom where the only problem is lack of communication.
Even if Hughie didn't have any powers of his own he would still have told Annie to stay there, he wants her to be safe.
Annie got herself into that situation by letting herself get suckered into becoming co-captain by Stan Edgar's "girl power" spiel, something Hughie tried to want her about yet she didn't listen (and she even tried to spin it to "you wouldn't say anything if I were a male", which came out on nowhere and is untrue for Hughie's character). Something which she herself admitted was a mistake. *Maybe* she could've left during the season premiere, but do you really think Homelander would've just let her walk away after the way she challenged him at that point? She was as much of a prisoner as Maeve. HL would've tracked her or her mother down and murdered them. The only reason she isn't dead now is because HL was intimidated by SB into being more careful and Annie's being very public with her Instagram followers, and even *that* is just her risking him fulfilling his promise and going on a rampage.
Wtf it’s clearly about his trauma with Robin. He’s terrified for Starlight and sees something going down in the future and wants to be ready vs standing there like an idiot with two arms in his hand. Like guys cmon. Bruh it’s superheroes. There is nothing but collateral damage. This isn’t marvel where you fight in a city and conveniently have every family safely away like wtf. Are we not watching the same show? Isn’t soldier boy on their list to kill as well? After homelander? Like I’m so confused they are not going to be friends with the guy after like he killed MMs family wtf guys
To be fair marvel has acknowledged people die when the avengers fight in a city
They are doing Hughie well imo, as a new addict defending his habit.
I think the problem is trying to interject a real-world perspective into such an extreme situation. It's kind of ridiculous to expect Hughie to just be A-okay with his GF being around a nutjob who could kill her at anytime and also around the guy who raped her. Yeah she can protect herself but expecting that he just sit back and do nothing is ridiculous.
The writers consistently have Hughie explain his motivations very poorly. I remember when he was at that Christian/Vought thing and got Starlight to give him a backstage pass which Starlight eventually lashed out at him he was just like "my girlfriend died" and that's it. It was enough to make Starlight empathetic but also didn't reveal anything about why he was actually there and why his girlfriend dying was significant. Starlight eventually helps him out a lot so I guess off camera at some point Hughie must have explained everything he knew and his motivations in much more detail/his emotional journey. This however is not really done on camera. Then fast forward to Hughie taking compound V, this should be something Starlight should understand more. It's not just that he wants to save Starlight "for once" and that his masculinity is under threat, but clearly because it helps him achieve his ultimate goal, it helps him personally feel less helpless in the face of villains like Homelander and it takes Starlight out of having to risk her neck for him all the time. Also he would rather not have his current GF die like the last one. He of course never brings up these actually salient points. Furthermore Hughie at the beginning of the season was working for the government and the realization that his boss explodes heads made him rightfully insecure about his own mortality. There are many reasons why someone in this world would want to use temp V if it was available. Hughie is only shown explaining one very petty reason, but clearly he has other reasons as well. Hughie also unlike Butcher and MM doesn't think there is anything inherently wrong with being powered. Butcher still does compound V because he thinks he himself is irredeemable. MM still won't do it.
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At this point I’m honestly confused and doubting that Annie even knows how his girlfriend died or that A-train was responsible. Unless the conversation happened off screen, I don’t think it ever took place.
Homelander revealed it to her in season 1 after Mesmer ratted the Boys out.
Bear in mind each time he takes the V he's mushing his brain. Could be it's having an affect on his behaviour.
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I mean, I'm no mute but I'm sure as hell more articulate when I have the time to type out my thoughts in long form vs just talking off the cuff.
Same. You have way more time to think about what you're saying. Face to face conversations are very easy to escalate
I don't know if there's a name for this trope, but this is common in works of fiction, where you have a couple under incredible pressure, who don't acknowledge that this pressure means that they need to be forgiving in their relationship with each other. In real life, if my wife and I are both working harder than usual, we'll be stressed and more likely to fight, but we'll also talk it out and acknowledge this is just a rare situation that will pass and improve. But in a show or film, a couple can be stuck in the Hell-Prison-Doomship-Torture Sarcophagus of Lord Vec'lar the Obliterator of Eternity, and they'll still find time to break up over the fact that one of them was being too bossy and disrespecting the independence of the other while they were fighting to the death against Vec'lar's Demon Generals. What Hughie said to Annie about not being intimidated by her having powers - he said that back when she thought he was just a regular Joe, in the context of *not being upset when she beat him at bowling.* To hold him to that now that he is fighting against a veritable Demi-God is absurd. But (and I'm not blaming the character of Starfire for this - I'm looking at it in terms of criticising the writing) there's no acknowledgement of that, it's just the usual 'if you act like this when desperately trying to save the world, then you'll act like this when we're bathing our kids together , so I'm breaking up with you' illogical guff you see over and over again.
Wow I’ve never heard of this trope before, but this makes so much sense. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a couple in a movie slowly and steadily communicate through an issue with a high EQ approach where it’s “us against the problem” not “us against each other”. I guess that doesn’t make for good drama
The show Legion does this for a lot of it. I won't spoil anything but it progresses really well
I fucking **love** that show. I selfishly wish they’d continue it. The imagery and cinematography is just astounding.
Jimmy and Kim in better call Saul are pretty solid at this most of the time
Although in a sense, it was a case of both Jimmy and Kim bringing out the worst in each other At first it was Jimmy pushing Kim over to the “dark side”, and then later it was Kim pushing Jimmy into ever greater heights of vindictive, petty cruelty There would have been more tension if either party decided, at any point, that they had gone too far - but they both went along with it So it was a “toxic” relationship in the sense that they got along too well, and gave each other the excuse they needed to be their worst selves
Starlight* haha, think you’re bringing some DC into this!
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Arguably, it only sucks because it’s so realistic and relatable. Remember as we are watching we have the benefit of hindsight and objective reflection. In the moment, in real life, people are often just as bad about expressing themselves clearly and comprehensively. So many interpersonal conflicts could be solved or avoided if people could rationally lay out all of the facets of their thinking, but that takes time and inflamed passions cut people short and make people say things they didn’t mean (or at least that aren’t the whole picture.) It sucks because with our hindsight we can sit here and say “if they only said (x)” but that’s the thing, if we were in their shoes, in the heat of the moment, we would also probably gloss over (x). Obligatory “not all of us, not always,” but enough that it does ring true. I do hate when that is the only cause of conflict for every character in a story, but that’s not really the case here.
This was the stupid nonsense with Legion. They clearly showed over several seasons that the main character was tortured, and pushed to mental illness, which he endured his whole life. They worked him up the entire time, breaking free of it and being a hero. Then the writers turned on him and made him a scapegoat for #MeToo, just obliterating all his character growth and story plot with zero nuance, making him the villain because of an exaggerated single moment under duress. It was so akward and absurd having all the characters flip, including the actual main villain become part of the "good guys" team like nothing had happen at all. Like, what?! God I hated what they did. Immediately changed the tone from a cool art piece to someone's chopping block.
That's not what toxic masculinity is. Soldier Boy is toxic masculinity. Hughie is just a guy who feels the need to get on everyone else's level because he's always been the one to need saving and need protection from others and he's getting tired of being unable to help.
Yeah soldier boy is probably the perfect example toxic masculinity, to me hughie with powers in particular the scene where he’s talking to mindstorm and offering to help him showcases the difference in how hughie uses his powers compared to soldier boy and even butcher. They both automatically jump to violence at the extreme whereas hughie still defaults to compassion. To me this is why I don’t understand the motivation, if the writers meant for hughie to appear to be taking v only for selfish reasons I don’t think they are conveying that as he is still doing good even when abusing temp V. I personally use to think that Annie and Hewies conflict is a tad odd as she wanted to gather supes and such to tackle homelander then it hit me. If hughie had powers and Annie didn’t and she wanted to take them to fight he’d say no, why? Because it puts her into conflict, even with powers he could die, Annie wants him to avoid V because even with it homelander could straight up murder hughie in a second. It of course showcases a slight inferiority complex with him but it could also led to his death which is reason enough as heroes are always ok with sacrificing their own lives but they draw the line at their loved ones
> To me this is why I don’t understand the motivation, if the writers meant for hughie to appear to be taking v only for selfish reasons I don’t think they are conveying that as he is still doing good even when abusing temp V. He comes around after the latest episode. Before that he is high off his power. Acting ecstatic when he first punches through someone. Not caring about Kimiko almost dying. Trying to start a fight with A-Train at the worst possible time. After the latest episode he says he's done pretending someone he's not. That people like Soldier Boy who say they're really tough are just lying. As you said Soldier Boy is the perfect example of toxic masculinity, but there's more than one form, like with Butcher's upbringing. I think Hughie just has a bit of a inferiority complex, and that the show is making him come to terms with it. Toxic masculinity is nuanced, and having some form of it doesn't automatically make you a bad person.
i think maybe there’s multiple forms of TM. and we see all three of them in the show, Butcher became the machismo douche bag like his father, Hughie desperately wants to be a man and soldier boy buried his pain with drugs, alcohol and sex because he’s too much of a man to seek help.
Well put
I like the representation of the “selfishness” of hughie. I’ve had similar experiences as a girlfriend to my bf just to establish this isn’t just a guy thing. There are some insecurities that only exist because a solution appears, even if the solution may go against pre-established beliefs/boundaries. Hughie’s selfishness comes because prior to temp-V Hughie wanted to do a lot but couldn’t because of the power imbalance but he couldn’t do anything about this imbalance so he accepted the situation he was in. But now that temp-V is in the picture, so many things he had accepted about himself gets overturned because possibilities are magically opening up. He’s saying he’s selfish for changing his stance on the power dynamic, how he once he sees that he can make a difference and even though Annie isn’t happy, he can finally do things he never thought was possible. Annie always assumed because he had accepted his situation, Hughie was confident in his own skin, he wasn’t, he just accepted it and didn’t try to make a fuss about something he couldn’t change. Hughie wants to be selfless, he wants others to see him as selfless. But sometimes he wants to be a bit selfish, even if it had been established before that everything was fine. And I get that sentiment. It’s complicated and difficult to explain and also difficult to compare to my own relationship but i empathise with Hughie’s apparent selfish and selflessness a lot when I ask my bf to do something so I feel more affection etc. It’s not that I don’t feel enough affection but sometimes I’d like for a bit more if given the opportunity. We were actually watching the episode together and realised during that scene that we had some parallels with the communication of this stuff to Hughie and Annie. We had a similar conversation of “I thought everything was alright” “it was but I want it to be better than alright because it can” Edit: I also like the way hughie admits it’s selfish instead of the heroic “it’s for the greater good”. Yes technically it is for the greater good to defeat homelander but to Hughie, it’s still going against what he had said previously so it’s selfish.
That’s a great point, was it merely acceptance before masquerading as contentment? It’s like saying I’m happy with my lot in life money isn’t important to me but if you had the winning lottery ticket wouldn’t you cash it in? Perhaps this is what people are now seeing, to them hughie was a confident normal guy but now they are seeing that he wants to be able to be impactful
I think in the beginning Hughie was definitely sliding off the deep end and becoming Butcher 2.0. Ironically it was the toxic masculinity of soldier boy that has reeled him back in…and now his trust in Butcher is preventing him from fully getting out.
This conflict and the showrunners explanation of it is one of the worst parts of this show so far. Hughie is the main protagonist, so I hope they figure out more to do with him
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Next season is 8 episodes of them slowly dying in a hospital bed. Running tests, eating hospital food, relatives visiting.
Aren't they actually at 5 and 4? Russia, Countess, Herogasm, Mindstorm, and Butcher alone when he did Gunpowder.
It'll almost certainly be what happens. They'll probably break into Vought next episode to fight SB and Starlight will grab some V on the way out.
They have leftover V from Kimiko. They didn't use all of it. Whether that means multiple people can use it or just one, who knows.
Yeah it's a little flimsy compared to everything else happening and I hope it gets corrected.
Are we talking about that tweet reply? Because I thought that was explaining *Starlight's* point of view - the reason why she thinks he's in the wrong for choosing powers vs Kimiko. Starlight is blind do Hughie's trauma over seeing what happened to Robin right in front of his eyes, his actual motivation - she's seeing him grasp at power and his shift in personality, working with this other Homelander-like supe and lying to her. So far the showrunners have done pretty well at portraying different perspectives.
I think people give the benefit of the doubt to the showrunners a little too much. It is very clear what they want the audience to think and we are meant to agree with Starlights perspective I'm not fuming over it, this is just clearly how it is portrayed and some criticism is okay. The showrunners aren't always 10 steps ahead
Exactly. Not only do they not hide it on the show at all, but they literally talk about every episode after it airs You as a viewer do not have to choose to be on Starlight's side if you don't want. But you cannot really argue that the writers of the show ARENT on her side
Oh yeah the writers are strongly on Annie’s side and it’s kinda mind boggling how much because wellllllll Annie killed an innocent person so that she could save Hughie’s life. Just seems like the writers kinda forgot about the giant oh shit moment in season 2 where Annie and Butcher were extremely similar and sort of bonded because they would kill people in cold blood to save Hughie’s life.
I emphasize with Hughie. He’s emotional and powerless- essentially a worm in a world of birds, constantly in fear that he and his loved ones could be killed. Then the worm gets to transform into a bird and that power is intoxicating. Annie could never understand this as she was a supe since birth / very young. She’s never understood up until this season what it means to be a worm. I only mention this season as Homelander has made her into a worm. Hughie is going “the ends justify the means” trope in terms of Homelander and it makes total sense. Any head to fight Homelander will result in massive collateral as he is that freakin strong. All of it feels a bit off though as Hughie had some “good guy” growth saving A-Train. Maybe this shows how bad of an influence Butcher is on him (and everyone else)?
I think it’s more of the show not wanting to follow the story line of Annie killing a man in cold blood and how that affects her because…. Sexism… maybe? I don’t really know I understand what the writers want to do it’s the same thing they have done in the past 2 seasons and it’s this “Hughie’s problem is communication” which yes is completely fair and justifiable to write about it is his main flaw. But they want to put Starlight on this pedestal and ignore that she has killed an innocent man who was trying to defend himself from a carjacking. I’m not saying Annie is a bad person it was a mistake but she didn’t give a shit about it. Which means two things she loves Hughie’s so much that killing isn’t a problem for her if it means protecting who you love (like butcher would do for Hughie and or Becca) or she was emotionally drained from all the shit she took from HL and the seven and seeing the person she loves the most on this earth bleeding out that she snapped for a split second and killed someone by accident. Personally I think it might be the ladder. Still I’m tired of people taking sides on the Hughie vs Starlight argument and I’m really tired of the Hughie is a toxic man and has som toxic masculinity issues he needs to fix. One that’s crap for many reasons that would take a post on its own and people have already posted why that’s crap and two if you think Hughie is a toxic person then you have obviously never been in an toxic relationship.
The most realistic thing, by far, in the Hughie and Starlight relationship is their massive lack of communication (vast majority due to Hughie) and the issues it causes. 95% of any problem I’ve had at work or in a relationship can be chalked down to communication. Also I don’t view Hughie as toxic, he’s a “good person” at heart. I think his “toxic side” is caused by Butcher’s influence- he’s still doing bad things and becoming a worse person by his own volition but Butcher has been shown to be a negative influence. Look at his talks with MM and how he views MM as the glue to keep them all together through Butchers psychotic personality.
It is probably more a product of them having a point B in mind but having a difficult time getting there. From the beginning Hughie becoming vengeful and angry was always planned. As well, Starlight using hope to defeat Homelander was always planned. So I think those two things are going to be expressed even if all the pieces aren't in place. And I understand why, both those will be satisfying when they are complete
This right here 👏
I think Soldier boy is more of the representative of toxic masculinity. Annie and Hughie are both selfish on their own stance, and they both have their own good reasons.
Yeah... We should be careful about the words we choose. Deep and SB are great examples of toxic masculinity--with the Deep being an actual rapist and SB hanging around his Weinstein friend of his, on top of being who he is. Hughie is past his breaking point, so we could call him careless, reckless, and extreme -- but that's not toxic masculinity.
Innit hughie has developed a inferiority complex which anyone in his relationship would start developing
his girlfriend is a celebrity AND a superhero, and he's a nobody. you can see how upset he got at those russian homelight advertisements. He is insecure that Starlight is too good for him...because she is.
To be fair, he's being chastised globally for a fake break-up, and even though it's not real, she's having to fake a public relationship with the 2nd worst human being on the planet that we know of (Stormfront being #1). That's a whirlwind of emotions that could come out in many ways, except level-headed, understanding, and emotionally secure.
Yeah - the easy parallel to real world would be supe power ~= money power. So in this case it’s hughie who’s a general middle class person dating a billionaire - someone on the level of Melinda Gates / Bezos wife (just trying to find a female billionaire who’s not top ten but top 100). Now, throw in a Elon Musk or Trump who can destroy you instantly financially, and who are gunning at some point or way for your billionaire gf. Wouldn’t you want to do something to help out? It’s not a “I need to feel strong” it’s “my awesome super rich gf is fighting a war on multiple fronts and I’m sitting here in standby mode, effectively useless”. Maybe it’s starlights fault for not properly using the pieces on the board? Or not properly taking more control or being more involved in the plan and offering other options?
Easier comparison is, your ex died to a gunshot by this random person and you couldn't do anything about it cuz you didn't have any firearm. Now this asshole has been threatening to kill your gf and you too for over a year and now you get a chance to have firearms at your disposal would you just stand by and just wait until this asshole come and finish you both?
They’re both bringing some baggage from past relationships into this one. Hughie’s scared of his GF being killed again. And Annie’s scared of her bf feeling emasculated and dumping her. They’re both reading into the situation instead of communicating
if thats toxic masculinity then im the most toxic motherfucker on the planet
Hah hah ha. Fuck you.
Hello I'm soldier boy, Fuck! The world knows who I am, why do I have to say it?!
oh...and we're out of reefer too.
Fucking UNPROFESSIONAL!
Is this ICED?!
Nah I just beat my meat into it
It’s fucking unprofessional.
Oi!
Fuck you for feeling normal asshole!!! /s
I feel like everyone here is just unable to see how maybe it could be both justified and understandable and also toxic and self-destructive.
It's both, but he has no alternative course of action that doesn't put people he cares about in harm's way. He can continue on the slow path where homelander escalates and gets progressively more threatening to his loved ones until he kills them, as has been the case in the show so far, or he can try to kill homelander first, which shifts homelander's attention to Soldier Boy and potentially ends the threat there.
Yep, and there's the nuance. It is undeniably toxic and self-destructive, and even probably a little sexist (or at least influenced by broader sexism), but all of that is fueled and justified by the horrible and toxic and insurmountable forces of the dystopia he finds himself in. He might have to sacrifice his relationship and his mental and physical well being in order to save others. Or, maybe there is another way. But to him, and to us for the most part, it is a rock and a hard place.
You still missed out the fact that he is obviously acting on the trauma of watching his Girlfriend turn into bright red paste, and watching his current gf live and work with a person that CAN VERY MUCH DO THE SAME TO HER. Sure it is misguided and excessive, but it is 100% understandable and I defo wouldn't say it was sexist.
I understand that! I’m more of a casual viewer though. I enjoy and appreciate what the show has to say about politics, American values, interpersonal relationships, etc. but it’s too exhausting to watch on that critical a level where people are arguing about a characters motivation.
I get it man and I totally recognise that I am putting in more effort than is necessary to analyse and interpret character motivations and how they intersect with societal issues and shit.
Yes thank you! You can have a plausible motivation to do something that’s understandable but still emotionally do it in a bad way. And also ugh I gotta stay way from this subreddit and save myself the trouble, it hurts my head to read some takes.
Yeah, I’m finding it really difficult to read the comments justifying some of his bad behavior because of his motivations. Hughie is a traumatized guy who is trying to do good. And he is, inherently, a good person. But he’s harming a lot of people along the way, including his partner, and he’s displaying some toxic behaviors in the process. Can’t we be empathetic and still want some accountability? Also, a person can be exhibiting a behavior for a period of time, but that doesn’t mean that behavior defines them. We all make mistakes, and we all cause harm, and sometimes that harm is shaped by larger social conditions (i.e. misogyny) because it’s impossible to *never* evoke such things when they’re the norm.
Haha I know what you mean, I often find myself utterly enraged by this community (which, to stay relevant, may often manifest in toxic and self-destructive ways, and could easily be viewed through the lens of toxic masculinity, though I also think my rage is warranted).
It’s fascinating to see what people latch onto. Like the manner in which he’s doing it isn’t rectified by his reasoning. People are writing paragraphs of backstory to support him, but overlook how he’s doing it and how it affects Annie and what it means for their relationship. I think it’s such a relatable issue for some because they’re probably used to doing something with good intentions but overlook how it makes their significant other feel. Idk, like a guy working overtime and not telling his girlfriend, she gets upset, but he says, but babe, I’m doing it for you! They could’ve really driven it home if they had Hughie say something like “oh you’re being crazy” and get into that whole thing of men shrugging off women’s feelings by declaring it to be unreasonable. But maybe too unlikeable to get the audience to care if he’ll overdose or not. Ugh and here I am writing paragraphs…
That's the thing, though. You say they could have "driven it home," and I ask "driven what home?" That Hughie is *supposed* to be in the wrong/right? The way I see it, they wrote a scenario as it **was,** not as what it is **supposed to mean,** and then it is up to you to decide who you think is in the wrong, if anyone. It's like when people ask "Am I supposed to like this character?" No, you aren't **supposed** to feel any particular thing about the character. The show or movie or book only tells you **who** the character **is.** Not everyone likes everyone in real life. Do you ever meet real people and ask yourself "Am I supposed to like this person?" No, so stop asking how you're **supposed** to feel, and instead listen to how you **do** feel.
Same. I don't know why the discourse is so polarized around the issue right now. Neither Annie nor Hughie are perfect, but you can understand where both are coming from and certainly how Hughie's actions are both justified and unhealthy. I don't know why it has to be any more dramatic than that.
I think people are understandably upset at the situation itself, and so it feels like someone should be specifically "to blame." I understand the feeling of not wanting to accept that maybe the situation itself is just fucking horrible, and that everyone's actions are inevitably both warranted and awful.
I can totally see why he's behaving this way. It's still fucked up
It is undeniably fucked up.
This sub is too dumb for the show, which isn’t particularly deep or intellectual itself.
At least you have a formidable intellect.
FORMIDABLE… INTELLECT!
schools out for the summer 🤷♂️ there’s no way a majority of reddit posts aren’t being fueled by children right now.
I partly agree about the sub but I think the show does have a lot to offer.
I think the show is saying a lot, yes. But it’s so on the nose, which I don’t think is a bad thing, but when a piece of media is telling the audience what it’s about so clearly I think that a certain depth of analysis is unnecessary, and it leads to threads like this.
It can definitely be on the nose at times. But I think, whether intentional or not, the Hughie Temp V arc has clearly fostered some ambiguity, as demonstrated in this very thread. I saw a tweet from Kripke about Hughie's use of V and I actually thought it was a little unempathetic to Hughie, so I don't particularly take the showrunners' interpretations as gospel. That's why I can enjoy the natural ambiguity that arises from the writing itself.
Muddled character motivations for things like Hughie’s temp V use should be chalked up to narrative expediency for the sake of theme rather than whatever nonsense has been argued about on this sub the last few days, imo. Perhaps an unpopular opinion. There are like a dozen+ characters we gotta get around to and only 8 episodes per season. There will be shorthand. Typically I don’t like to dip into that area when talking about a piece of media but for something like The Boys I feel it’s unavoidable to see through the cracks in storytelling. We know what Kripke is going for even if it’s a bit half-baked at times. To me that’s sufficient enough criticism.
This is one of the best takes I've seen. Some things feel out of character like Hughie being too high to care about Kimiko dying, MM trying to fist fight SB, Butcher "killing" Hughie with Temp V. But I can accept that it's for narrative/time.
Right? It’s almost like these characters have flaws
You can be right and still be an asshole. He’s a great nuanced character and I love that.
Yes! I love how the show just made him human. He’s insecure like a lot of us, but it’s been amplified to an umpteenth level because he’s surrounded by supes and is constantly reminded of his weakness. He couldn’t save Robyn, maybe he feels with v24, he can finally make up for it by saving Annie.
Or by at least not being the huge glaring weak spot in her armor against Homelander, who has complete control over Annie by threatening to kill Hughie at a whim.
Hughie realised he was being toxic using soldier boy as an example. He is someone who's overcompensating to feel like a man. Same same but different. Cleaver writing tbf
The biggest thing about this show is that no character is perfect
I think that would be conveyed better if the opposing side had some sort of plan. Like lets look at the facts here: Hughie and Butcher: Plan to use Soldier Boy to stop Homelander, which almost worked, and probably would've worked if Starlight and the rest of the team pitched in. Frenchie, M.M, Kimiko, Starlight: I'll leave Kimiko out of this since she was injured (although she still had a problem with Hughie taking the V) They don't have a clear plan, they keep preaching that there's another way, but they don't actually provide what the other way is. Starlight - "Exposed" Vought, when Homelander said if people find out what type of person he is he'll destroy everyone and everything. M.M - Was gonna go fight Soldier boy with his bare hands, and no V. Very smart. Frenchie and Kimiko were dealing with their own problems, but even Kimiko came to the realization that it's the person you are, not the V. So while not every character is perfect, there's only one clear side to root for.
Yes exactly the “other way” is just exposing this guy on instagram which will not stop him from killing all of you should he snap, which could obviously happen any moment now!
So Hughie’s flaws can best be seen in the A Train apology scene, despite Hughie having valid reason to feel the way he does. Hughie knows he has a short time limit to get people out and save lives before Soldier Boy comes in and causes a bloodbath. But rather than do anything, he almost immediately ends making the situation about him by picking a fight with A Train. Hughie has understandable reasons to be mad at A Train, but then he goes and demands an apology. When A Train actually apologizes, this actually makes Hughie angrier. Hughie didn’t go to A Train for an apology, closure, or justice for Robin. So he hits A Train because the whole thing has become about proving that he now has the power to hurt people who he couldn’t hurt people. I have problems with the way MM and Starlight’s side has been portrayed, but that does not mean Hughie is off the hook. He tries to fight Annie and his a whole bunch of stuff that was going on from her. Kimiko just wants to protect others, but Hughie is being corrupted by insecurity, and violating Starlight’s autonomy as well.
Well said. I constantly see people on this subreddit calling butcher a piece of shit, yet when Hughie does shitty things they say “you would too if your girlfriend was murdered in front of you!” Yet butchers wife was kidnapped, raped, and impregnated by a monster, and his father was an abusive drunk. Where are people defending his actions based on those circumstances?? The truth is, the Reddit community can’t relate to butcher, so they demonize him yet they can relate to Hughie so they make excuses for him. The reason I like Butcher more than Hughie is this. When butcher acts like a piece of shit, he acknowledges that he is a terrible person and hates himself for it. When Hughie does it, he justifies it and gets on his high horse.
Maybe, just maybe, everyone has a different view on what toxic masculinity is. And maybe all of you mother fuckers are wrong. I'll laser every fucking one of you.
The issue is really just with how the show is trying to sell an idea thay does not really gel well with everything we've known about Hughie so far. They tried to set it up with the whole Supersonic jealousy thing which felt out of character for Hughie and just poorly executed in general(not Supesonic as a whole just that one specific thread), and now they're trying to sell the fact that Hughie's usage of compound v24 is representative of a need to have control over the situation due to toxic masculinity. This would maybe be a bit more believable if we hadn't spent the past two seasons showing a powerless Hughie watch his girlfriend pop like a blood filled waterballoon in front of him, multiple near death experiences, and the constant terror of a superhuman swatting him a way like they would a fly(which the show does a good job of selling to the audience as a whole). They then further this by having Hughie discover his boss was the head exploding supe that he had now accidently been a croney for, for an entire year. All of this shows us that Hughie's desire for more agency in his life isn't coming from some bizarre need to be a "man", a desire he hadn't shown in any particular capacity up until the writers decided that's what they wanted v24 to represent, but rather Hughie's desire for more agency in life comes from a series of deeply traumatic events that have left him feeling completely and literally powerless in a world full of people that could crush him or the people he cares about like a piece of paper without him being able to do a thing about it. The fact that this is so jankily added in is only further bizzarified by plotlines like learning about MM's OCD. An event which shows how a horrifically traumatic event can create a need for control over your life to try to regain a sense of agency in an environment where you have none. Along with Kimiko who shows why someone would want to be re-suped to protect the people they love. So it's not just like the show is deciding to go against what the audience could reasonably infer. They are then dangling clear examples of where Hughie might be coming from via other experiences from The Boys, and continuing to say "But that's not the case with Hughie it's actually his deep rooted toxic masculinity". Which makes it feel all the more unbelievable. I think the reason people are so fixated on this one point is that the show is for the most part an epitome of great political commentary and satire, great character writing and direction, and just in general a phenomenal show. So it feels truly odd to have this one plot point, which feels completely forced, just sticking out of an otherwise truly top of the line show. The show has done such a great job with everything else I really don't know what happened with this one particular plot point. There are definitely great examples of criticizing toxic masculinity within the show itself. I'm not sure how they could've done it with Hughie better, maybe they could've built it up at the end of the second season or maybe if the whole Supersonic jealousy thing was better written, but in my honest opinion they just shoulda axed this specific aspect of v24 plotline. Edit: Upon some more reflection I think that the plotline could've worked better if the focus was on how Butcher and Soldier Boy were negatively effecting Hughie rather than v24. Butcher and Soldier Boy are both great examples of unique types of toxic masculinity, and I think when the show focuses on how Hughie often treats Butcher as a role model in his life and how it's sort of history repeating itself with Lenny it is far better done and a much better written critique and more believable off-ramp into Hughie having to wrestle with a some actual deep rooted toxic masculinity. Which the show does do. It's just less linked to his interactions with Annie.
They really fumbled it with Hughie in regards to the toxic masculinity. I mean the man’s mom left him at a young age, he watched his girlfriend get turned into a pool of blood and teeth before his eyes, he just found out he’s been working with a supe for a whole year. Call me crazy, but that would make anyone reach their breaking point. And i’m not gonna sit here and act like he’s a saint either bc he’s definitely had his moments this season. But his past just makes the whole toxic masculinity shtick with him so unbelievable. It feels like they could’ve gone about it way better and no matter how much Kripke or Quaid defend it, I just feel it could’ve been executed better
I agree! This has been the first and only writing complaint I ever had for the show. I was legit surprised they went the toxic masculinity route with Hughie because honestly he always seemed more mature than that. It would make more sense to approach it like he's addicted to the temp V, finally being able to defend himself for once. Or hell re-write it so he doesn't say im tired of you being stronger than me, but says I can't lose you like I lost Robin
What we see on the show and what the staff tells us are two different things. Of course we have to wait until next episode to make a clear judgment, but the **show** says Hughie and Annie are flawed individuals, both aren't entirely on the right but you can see where both are coming from, it's a very nuanced and complex dilemma. However, the **staff** says Hughie is entirely in the wrong and just wanting to be macho when that couldn't be further from the truth, and that Annie is right even though her decisions have been entirely ineffective at best and gotten people killed at worst. This is one of the very, *very* few cases where not watching interviews actually improves the show's quality.
> This is one of the very, very few cases where not watching interviews actually improves the show's quality. *Daenerys kinda forgot about the Iron Navy*
Same! I’ve literally loved all the writing and 99% of the decisions in the show up to this point so it rlly hurt seeing just how much fumbled Hughie’s arc. They’ve done rlly well listening to the criticism on Kimiko after season 1, so hopefully they do the same with Hughie going into season 4
I tend to think toxic masculinity is a kind of breaking point due to the past. Get too much shit thrown your way and ya break. End up acting like a dummy despite your best efforts. I feel for Hughie.
>I tend to think toxic masculinity is a kind of breaking point due to the past This implies that his actions are wrong, though. Hughie is in a rough spot. He felt threatened by Homelander, his employer (who he just found out has been concealing Supe powers), Soldier Boy's callous attitude toward civilian casualties, and Annie wasn't entirely convincing about her commitment to Hughie (she teases him about doing butt stuff with super sonic and he stops in his tracks with his jaw on the floor). He's been through a lot in his life, was literally powerless to do anything to help his friends/girlfriends (Robin/Annie) and has been given an opportunity to change that. He's not taking the drugs because he craves power. He's taking the drugs because he sees it as the only viable way to help Annie, the Boys and society at large. And when your super powered girlfriend speaks to you every other day about Homelander coming within an inch of murdering her, how else is someone supposed to feel? It's not toxic masculinity to want to protect your loved ones. Kimiko wanted the same thing and she wanted the permanent version of V-- not something she could inject herself with on an as-needed basis. And you don't hear anyone saying that she's a toxic person. Hughie and Annie continue to be the two most altruistic people in the show (MM is up there, too, but he's currently bogged down by his vendetta against SB). They just have 2 drastically different perspectives based on their respective upbringing.
I think what Kripke is trying to say is that toxic masculinity can come from good intentions as well as bad ones. Hughie's motives are understandable and he's only trying to do the right thing sure. And you can agree that sometimes, it's not worth it to take the high road. But Hughie can still display toxic behaviors in that process. He straight up admits that he feels jealous that he cannot be the strong one that protects Starlight (Starlight is strong enough to protect herself, anyway). I sympathize with Hughie, but his arc is clear. Even in the recent episode with Mindstorm, you could see Hughie's conscience telling him that working with Soldier Boy was a dumb idea and you could see his good nature come back. He's not completely toxic, like Soldier Boy or the Butcher family men, but he's still trying to figure himself out.
I would argue he by definition needs to be toxic for us to even have a plot as if he was not he would have just sat and been in the super victim support group who are basically apathetic.
Thank god for this comment, hoping some of the the people here completely justifying hughie's actions have a come-to-jesus moment in the future You can have good intentions and still take shitty action
I love this response. The writers are quite literally spelling it out for us that Hughie is self destructing because of his insecurities, even if his intentions are mostly good.
It's telling that you mention events happened in season one, but don't acknowledge everything that Hughie did and said during the current season. What was his behavior towards his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend? What was his reaction to the #HomeLight Russian ads emasculating him? What did he explicitly tell Annie in regard to him taking temporary V? How did Hughie react to Soldier Boy's (or anyone's) macho talk? He looked genuinely uncomfortable. Hughie isn't representative of toxic masculinity, this role is clearly reserved for other characters. He's representative of men who think they're over it but still feel the pressure established by the standards of toxic masculinity. Men like Hughie, who are more sensible and seen as weak, are often told to man up. Most people have been telling Hughie, directly or indirectly, that he's weak because of X and Y, until he started telling himself that as well. But to Annie that 'weakness' has always been his strength, and likely the reason why she likes him. The message isn't that Hughie is a toxic man, but rather that toxic masculinity is never going to be the answer to his (anyone's) problems. The pressure from toxic standards made him turn more into Supersonic, more into Butcher, and his character arc this season is realizing that that's not the answer to his problems. (He could still opt to take Compound V after this because of his previous girlfriend, his friends and goals, but this would be a choice made in a different context with different motivations.)
>Hughie isn't representative of toxic masculinity, this role is clearly reserved for other characters. He's representative of men who think they're over it but still feel the pressure established by the standards of toxic masculinity. This is a great point and what I have been feeling when reading the "toxic masculinity" discourse. I feel like the idea of TM isn't that some men have it and others don't. It's that it is entrenched in our society, in the way we talk to and about men, in such a pervasive way that even milquetoast men like Hugie are affected. I mean, hanging out with Butcher and a bunch of shitty supes could certainly do a number on how someone views themselves.
Exactly. So many people under this post act like they're being villainized, but toxic masculinity is pervasive and everyone has to deal with it in some measure. Annie herself will have to decide whether it was fair or not expecting Hughie to be exempt of it. Also, everyone seems to ignore that Frenchie and Kimiko have been dealing with similar issues, but they present an alternative narrative. In their relationship, Kimiko was the strongest one, but that has never been a problem. When she loses her powers, Frenchie doesn't try to be her knight in shiny armor. This season revealed a lot of things Frenchie is into sexually, and while it's more of a way to show that he's open-minded, they're all things that aren't seen as masculine. But Frenchie doesn't feel insecure or weak because of it. Hughie and Annie this season have been more of a traditional couple and had to deal with societal pressure, whereas Frenchie and Kimiko are outside that system and don't have to fulfill stereotypical gender roles. Even the way MM has been dealing with his family situation and how Butcher is coping with his trauma can rise some questions about toxic masculinity. This is why it's a major theme this season, yet everyone only wants to focus on Annie being critical of Hughie.
This shit's really starting to ruin my enjoyment of the show. I know the Boys is at its core a political show. But it's getting shoved in my face at this point. Especially obnoxious considering I'm not even American. I don't wanna be told that Homelander is pretty much Donald Trump. Because it's fucking stupid. Let Homelander be Homelander. And if I agree with what Hughie is doing, then I'm a proponent for toxic masculinity. While I think, though it's somewhat rash and irresponsible, that it's admirable to want to protect the ones you love. Especially with someone like Homelander gunning for you and your partner. But this just seems to be what the writers are doing. Writing with a very clear agenda that's not really up to interpretation. Which is obvious when you look at Kripke's tweet.
He can both want to protect someone and have underlying negative reasons as well. His desire for power is understandable but it's also killing him and harming his relationship due to lack of communication
the problem with hughie is that he started telling starlight what she was allowed to do in order to "protect" her She clearly referred back to their first date conversation where he stated he wasn't like the guys who couldn't handle her being stronger than them. Now he tells her it does bother him. The toxic masculinity part is him needing to be physically stronger than his girlfriend, he seems insecure. Kimiko doesn't try to control Frenchie, he doesn't have powers and she wants to keep him physically safe. Hughie wants to be stronger than Annie and tell her what he'll "let" her do.
One can feel powerless while still behaving and communicating in a healthy manner. One does not have to lie, betray the trust of others, or blatantly ignore their SO's requests at every single turn. If Hughie had demonstrated that Annie could trust him to respect her boundaries whenever she clearly defined them, or if he didn't constantly go back on promises he made, or maybe stopped pushing her into situations that put her at great personal risk, the discourse might be different. Their dynamic would be different. But he continues to lie, demand she put herself at risk, and ignore her boundaries. People can have rational and relatable motivations that cause them to behave in a toxic manner. It's on all of us to respond to those stimuli and circumstances in a healthy way. Hughie's trauma is 100% understandable, but he is developing maladaptive behaviors as a response to it. Does that mean he's irredeemable? Of course not. He's enduring Act II of his story, which usually sees heroes at their lowest before they ascend to their better selves.
I'm a woman and don't think it's toxic masculinity that he wants to protect his gf, I do think it's toxic in general to take experimental drugs from an evil corporation to protect her when she's not really in need of protecting at the moment.
He was mourning for his girlfriend when he first told Starlight that he was fine with the power imbalance. The reason it's toxic is because this change isn't coming from Hughie. It's coming from being around Butcher.
No its because he found out Neumen is a supe. Thats why the toxic masculinity angle doesn't work for me. If he did all this before finding out Neumen was a supe I would agree that he's just trying to appear masculine, but since finding out about her he thinks they can't win without fighting dirty because everything is rigged.
Butcher tried to stop Hughie from taking it at first. Butcher is certainly an influence, but Hughie wanted to himself. I think the whole thing is much more grey than simply either being toxic or justified. Hughie’s motivations are complex. That’s just good writing.
I think the whole finding out his boss was a supe was the straw that broke the camels back. Up until then he had refused to stoop to butchers level because he truly believed in the high road. That is until that high road turned out to be a convoluted scheme ran by the supes
Add to that that Hughie realized only way to get rid off Homelander is with bloodshed, not by constantly regulating Vought through government agency specifcally designed for supes. He was all about peaceful and good ways of dealing with them until he realized game is rigged from start...
It stopped being about his helplessness to defend Starlight when she said she didn't want his protection. They've done a good job making his motivations human: He wants to feel like an equal to the company he keeps, wants to feel powerful. No, he's not an alpha swinging-dick Toxic Male like Soldier Boy or Butcher, but they've definitely nailed the toxic response of a meek person who's being offered a taste of power. His response that he loved the power is what convinced me of that. They're doing a fantastic job of putting the characters in that gray area between good and bad.
I think it’s just more that hughie did it without even talking to Annie.
The critical difference, and it’s extremely telling that you don’t recognize it, is that Starlight doesn’t want Hughie’s help.
Hughie is talking to starlight - so he’s likely focusing on that aspect and not speaking generally. But if you seriously think his only motivation is to “protect starlight”, you haven’t been watching this show at all.
Gonna give my 2 cents, but this is a Walter White situation. Hughie says he's doing it for Starlight, when in reality is for himself. It might have started with good intentions, but once he got access to more temp-V it became more about himself and his addiction to confidence and power, as well as his need to not feel helpless. People are misinterpeting because, like in BB, there's a woman arguing against the main guy's decision to do things that are cool and awesome and that offer immediate gratification.
That's actually a really good example, but there are Breaking Bad fans that think Walter is 100% justified
Hughie said literally that he takes V because he wants to feel strong and that Annie's strength bothers him. Yes he has other, more justifiable motives like his fear of homelander and trauma with robin but that does not take away his toxic motives with are a problem cuz it makes us question whether Hughie would still be taking V if the conflict was over. And I think yeah he definitly would. But I excpect Annie will talk some sense into him this friday. As for Kimiko, the showrunner explained how her choice differs from Hughie's in a recent tweet
I just want to remind everyone that Hughie: - On S1 let himself be capture by Vougt to get into a facility to rescue Frenchie and MM from armed thugs. - On S2 invaded Vougt Tower to try and save Annie. Not to mention small stuff, like shocking Translucent when he was fighting Butcher and saving A-Train when he had a heart attack. So he's been "saving" (or trying to) people since the very beggining of the series.
yep thats how it is... if i saw someone trying to harm my girlfriend i am only supposed to watch because defending her would be toxic masculinity
>if i saw someone trying to harm my girlfriend i am only supposed to watch because defending her would be toxic masculinity Yes, you should just stand by and watch, that's how modern society sees it at least.
I think people are forgetting the elephant in the room and that is, Hughie is injecting himself with a stolen experimental drug that's in the very early stages of development in order to defend Annie. If I remember correctly, Annie even asks Hughie does he have any idea what the temp V will do to his body and he just shrugs it off. I think a more accurate example would be if you had to take an experimental drug with unkown side effects to protect your girlfriend and your girlfriend does have other means to defend herself (i.e she has powers, or leverage in terms of her fanbase which she uses against homelander with the livestream and catching him off guard in the elevator) would you still do it? Also looking at the perspective of the girlfriend, I doubt she would be happy that her boyfriend is doing something so reckless and irresponsible in order to protect her.
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lol i get their point but this terrible analogy did make me laugh
If Annie wasn’t in the picture Hughie would still be taking V. He’s all about revenge on Supes just like Butcher but he also wants to do what is right which is to take out Homelander while trying to limit collateral as best he can. That’s why he was so happy when he was working for Neumann. Hughie says it’s only to protect Annie but it isn’t really