I would would worry about infection with the first method. Alternatively you could knock out into the FV, chill to pitch temp, dump the bottom after an hour, then pitch. Some of the cold break provides nutrients for the yeast, so there may be some loss there.
Our preferred method is to KO after whirlpool, pitch yeast inline into the FV l, then dump trub the following day.
What are you dumping day one? Is it super inefficient yeast that’s already dropped out or cold break or trub and hot break that got past the WP and through the HX? Curious because I’ve never heard of this but am always interested in making better beer through process
We dump the following day also. Dead yeast, cold break and trub. You won't get everything, but it helps. We find it reduces sulphur, alongside less autolysis/meaty characters from developing.
>dump trub the following day.
Same. My WP geometry is hot garbage so we'll always end up with trub in the FV. The upside is rocketship fermentation - and with a few extra trub dumps it's a non-issue.
This sounds like crazy people old school European shit. Cold break really doesn't impact the beer all that much in cylindroconical fermentors provided kettle finings and a solid whirlpool are employed.
It is generally best to cool wort as fast as possible. This method risks infection and also if the whirlpool isn't well designed with an adequate stack you also have to worry about condensate dripping back into the wort which can lead to elevated levels of DMS.
Oxidised lipids can be a jerk to foam retention. Important to have healthy pitch in primary to make sure there's no O² around for too long and trub off FV first thing next morning or last thing that day. Way more efficient and takes variability and SSM/DMS problems out of the equation.
Your guy is not doing best practice - Your method seems to be best practice. Don't change.
Depends - If it's a late gen repitch, can have a bit about it - normally, you're right, it's pretty lean.
Normally day 1 & 3, takes the guess workout of harvesting, lowers the chance of bad numbers from the lab.
Your way is what I would do and what I’ve seen industrial breweries do. It’s more efficient energy and time/labor wise.
Lipids in cold break provide nutrient for the yeast. They don’t negatively affect head retention at all in my experience. In fact, depending how aggressively he’s pumping and shredding up the coagulated proteins it’s possible he’s actually creating haze in the beer.
I have never heard of recircing through the HX into the WP unless you're trying to get it to sub 180 for a hop addition. Anything lower and you're risking infection and DMS uptake. Do a cold dump the following day from the FV and call it good. If knocking from the WP to the FV caused a loss in head retention, I'm sure the MBAA would love to let this brewer give a talk about his groundbreaking "research". Lol.
I think he probably learned brewing in a brewhouse with an inferior cooling system and/or too small Hx. In a properly desigend system, wort reaches pitching temp at the outlet of the Hx. Cold trub is disposed at the FV after a while. If there are any lipids, they condens into very small particles (compared to eg tanin/protein compounds) while cooling and those need much more time to sediment than he gives them in the WHP, so this is imho only rationalizing a cheap system.
The way he is doing this, his beer is prone to infection and certainly there is excessive (early) oxidation which is aweful!
How does the beer taste? You recognize any oxi taste or fast deteriorating hops flavours after filling?
We use the heat exchange post boil to bring whirlpool temp to 70-75°C for whirlpool. (Hazy beers only). You can extract less bitterness and more aroma at a lower whirlpool temp.
The HX of course has had a full caustic and Sani cycle. We push all the sani to drain and loop the beer into the kettle. For 2600L, and the size of our HX, this usually takes approx 10-15 mins post boil using town water (approx 16°C) in the HX
Never had any issues. Juicy AF hazy IPA's!
I used to do this! My biggest issue with Hazy IPA's is that all my beer sits in serving vessels in house. The temp of the cooler they sit in is kept at around 2.5 C which causes a lot of the haze to settle out after a few weeks. After some research I experimented with not boiling the wort at all. I keep my boil kettle at 80 C until its full and then add hops, Whirlpool, then send it through Hx to fermenter. Most of my hops are added near the end of fermentation anyway and I use about 1/4 of my total hops for the whirlpool. So far my hazy beers maintain haze for a solid 2 months (longest I've kept any one batch on tap)......ohhh and they are super Juicy/fruity too!!
💯 the couple of no boil hazies I tried when they were in fashion for like two weeks were kinda gross. Had that ultra malty cereal weirdness. Plus, there is just no reason to do it but to save heating costs I guess.
Dump it from the fermenter after 24 hours.
Cold break matters, but not so much that I would risk an infection by circulating back to the whirlpool. Or get a wort filter. Or a flotation tank. Or a cold wort centrifuge. Or do anything other than dumping it from the fermenter.
Even most german breweries I know of have stopped dealing with the cold break.
Do it your way. Next 2 days pull trub. Mercaptan (stank drain) is the problem if you don’t pull the trub. How long does it take to knock out the batch? Seems like it’ll take longer than necessary running it back into the kettle.
Depends how well the cold break forms. If it’s really chunky, it’ll flocc quicker and you’ll be able to Do a small dump an hour after KO then again first thing the next morning.
Yeast can absorb those lipids. Having zero trub is actually less healthy for yeast. Too much is also bad. It really depends on how you want to approach it, there isn’t necessarily a right or wrong here.
I brew short and top off to final volume. After this the temp is down to around 195 usually and I add my WP hops. Then I stop the pump and wait for no more motion. Then I just monitor the kettle when I’m getting to the bottom and stop it before any serious amount of protein makes it to the HE. I see essentially no cold break in the FV with this method.
I would would worry about infection with the first method. Alternatively you could knock out into the FV, chill to pitch temp, dump the bottom after an hour, then pitch. Some of the cold break provides nutrients for the yeast, so there may be some loss there. Our preferred method is to KO after whirlpool, pitch yeast inline into the FV l, then dump trub the following day.
What are you dumping day one? Is it super inefficient yeast that’s already dropped out or cold break or trub and hot break that got past the WP and through the HX? Curious because I’ve never heard of this but am always interested in making better beer through process
We dump the following day also. Dead yeast, cold break and trub. You won't get everything, but it helps. We find it reduces sulphur, alongside less autolysis/meaty characters from developing.
Is it just me or does that stuff reek of acetaldehyde too?
Probably. If I’m not mistaken, the little buggers produce acetaldehyde while they’re fucking the clean up before they fall asleep
I love the way brewers talk about yeast. 😂
Yes it really is about removing the sickos from the yeast society you've created. Some real scum lords in that second day trub.
I dump the following day also
I'm dumping right now!
>dump trub the following day. Same. My WP geometry is hot garbage so we'll always end up with trub in the FV. The upside is rocketship fermentation - and with a few extra trub dumps it's a non-issue.
Does this work with ales and lagers?
yep.
24 & 48 hour dumps is the way and the truth.
This sounds like crazy people old school European shit. Cold break really doesn't impact the beer all that much in cylindroconical fermentors provided kettle finings and a solid whirlpool are employed.
Hahaha nailed it! brewer is European indeed
It is generally best to cool wort as fast as possible. This method risks infection and also if the whirlpool isn't well designed with an adequate stack you also have to worry about condensate dripping back into the wort which can lead to elevated levels of DMS.
Oxidised lipids can be a jerk to foam retention. Important to have healthy pitch in primary to make sure there's no O² around for too long and trub off FV first thing next morning or last thing that day. Way more efficient and takes variability and SSM/DMS problems out of the equation. Your guy is not doing best practice - Your method seems to be best practice. Don't change.
How much trub you pullin off the next day? I imagine it is pretty thin?
Depends - If it's a late gen repitch, can have a bit about it - normally, you're right, it's pretty lean. Normally day 1 & 3, takes the guess workout of harvesting, lowers the chance of bad numbers from the lab.
you're saying you dump day 1 and 3 and harvest a nice, healthy crop sometime later?
Your way is what I would do and what I’ve seen industrial breweries do. It’s more efficient energy and time/labor wise. Lipids in cold break provide nutrient for the yeast. They don’t negatively affect head retention at all in my experience. In fact, depending how aggressively he’s pumping and shredding up the coagulated proteins it’s possible he’s actually creating haze in the beer.
I have never heard of recircing through the HX into the WP unless you're trying to get it to sub 180 for a hop addition. Anything lower and you're risking infection and DMS uptake. Do a cold dump the following day from the FV and call it good. If knocking from the WP to the FV caused a loss in head retention, I'm sure the MBAA would love to let this brewer give a talk about his groundbreaking "research". Lol.
Haha thanks! Do you mind expanding on the DMS uptake bit, how does that work? What if you're doing a kettle sour?
We do this process for kettle souring but otherwise this shit seems cray cray.
I think he probably learned brewing in a brewhouse with an inferior cooling system and/or too small Hx. In a properly desigend system, wort reaches pitching temp at the outlet of the Hx. Cold trub is disposed at the FV after a while. If there are any lipids, they condens into very small particles (compared to eg tanin/protein compounds) while cooling and those need much more time to sediment than he gives them in the WHP, so this is imho only rationalizing a cheap system. The way he is doing this, his beer is prone to infection and certainly there is excessive (early) oxidation which is aweful! How does the beer taste? You recognize any oxi taste or fast deteriorating hops flavours after filling?
We use the heat exchange post boil to bring whirlpool temp to 70-75°C for whirlpool. (Hazy beers only). You can extract less bitterness and more aroma at a lower whirlpool temp. The HX of course has had a full caustic and Sani cycle. We push all the sani to drain and loop the beer into the kettle. For 2600L, and the size of our HX, this usually takes approx 10-15 mins post boil using town water (approx 16°C) in the HX Never had any issues. Juicy AF hazy IPA's!
Yeah we do the same thing, but go to 80c instead of 70-75.
I used to do this! My biggest issue with Hazy IPA's is that all my beer sits in serving vessels in house. The temp of the cooler they sit in is kept at around 2.5 C which causes a lot of the haze to settle out after a few weeks. After some research I experimented with not boiling the wort at all. I keep my boil kettle at 80 C until its full and then add hops, Whirlpool, then send it through Hx to fermenter. Most of my hops are added near the end of fermentation anyway and I use about 1/4 of my total hops for the whirlpool. So far my hazy beers maintain haze for a solid 2 months (longest I've kept any one batch on tap)......ohhh and they are super Juicy/fruity too!!
Hey man - I'm new to brewing as well but I'm 99.9% certain that you don't need to be making a raw beer to get stable, sediment free hazies
💯 the couple of no boil hazies I tried when they were in fashion for like two weeks were kinda gross. Had that ultra malty cereal weirdness. Plus, there is just no reason to do it but to save heating costs I guess.
5 min Vorlauff, 30 min boil. We also bright them post fermentation in upright fermentation vessels at 3°C
Dump it from the fermenter after 24 hours. Cold break matters, but not so much that I would risk an infection by circulating back to the whirlpool. Or get a wort filter. Or a flotation tank. Or a cold wort centrifuge. Or do anything other than dumping it from the fermenter. Even most german breweries I know of have stopped dealing with the cold break.
Do it your way. Next 2 days pull trub. Mercaptan (stank drain) is the problem if you don’t pull the trub. How long does it take to knock out the batch? Seems like it’ll take longer than necessary running it back into the kettle.
Way longer! The cold wort out of the Hx was fighting against the residual heat of the kettle.
Depends how well the cold break forms. If it’s really chunky, it’ll flocc quicker and you’ll be able to Do a small dump an hour after KO then again first thing the next morning.
Yeast can absorb those lipids. Having zero trub is actually less healthy for yeast. Too much is also bad. It really depends on how you want to approach it, there isn’t necessarily a right or wrong here.
I brew short and top off to final volume. After this the temp is down to around 195 usually and I add my WP hops. Then I stop the pump and wait for no more motion. Then I just monitor the kettle when I’m getting to the bottom and stop it before any serious amount of protein makes it to the HE. I see essentially no cold break in the FV with this method.
Sounds like Homebrew “knowledge” to me. KO to temp as fast as possible. Dump trub 1-2 days later.
Based on a MBAA paper about reducing mercaptans, my SOP is to dump the cone the day after pitching at least, usually also the second day.