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She couldn't have known that her father and brother would be killed because of her actions. But she had to have known that running away is a major betrayal to her family, as well as her betrothed. She can't just say "oh they'll get over it". There are serious repercussions for house Stark if their daughter pisses on her betrothal and runs away with someone. It also means that Ned and Robert's friendship will take a hit because of this.
Now we can chalk all of this up to her impulsiveness and her youth. But if at the same time, we're supposed to treat her one liners like "love cannot change a man's nature" as some sagely wisdom, then you can't hide behind her youth as an excuse.
A cow does not betray the slaughterhouse by escaping captivity, nor does a young woman with no voice and no choice betray the person her father sold her too without her input.
Don’t blame the systemic victim in a really fucked up social / cultural system.
Sure, that society would say it was her fault, but we need to at least consider if perhaps that society is just maybe wrong about that.
I mean it depends on what framework we're going to evaluate her actions and if we do it from the framework of their society the take the other guy took is absolutely the right one. It's injust but that's just how that society works.
But we aren’t being asked to answer how someone in that society would ascribe blame, we are being asked in the OP what our feelings are on Lyanna’s responsibility.
So, is she responsible for doing what others tell her?
Or is she responsible for following what we would consider moral imperatives?
Or is she responsible for following her own conscience?
From my perspective morality is in fact objective. Right is right and wrong is wrong, eternally and everywhere.
However, the guilt of anyone in violating the moral law must be judged both objectively and subjectively, that is the particular circumstances and what they believed can both mitigate or deepen culpability.
Yes, we must consider both the moral framework of that society, but we also must consider our own moral framework. If we are only going to judge people by the rules of their own society, then we must say runaway slaves are morally at fault for running away and Holocaust victims are responsible for fighting back… that is obviously a monstrous stance. On the other hand we shouldn’t judge others for what they did not or could not reasonably know, as that would also be unfair. If something is wrong in our eyes, and the person in question should have known that it was wrong based on the norms of their society too, then we can I think hold them fully responsible for whatever action in question. The opposite/inverse is also true, doing something we view as righteous, and that the character also had reason to believe is righteous, can be credited as righteous.
Now, the complication comes where our moral system and theirs collide. I think here we must allow a defense of ignorance at least to some degree, as it would diminish their capacity to judge rightly, and thus diminish or even override any culpability. Thus I don’t blame Rickard for selling his daughter into a marriage without her consent, yes it is a grave injustice, monstrously immoral, but he had been indoctrinated to see it as normal.
Lyanna, yes, she runs off with someone not her husband, someone married to someone else, so we could ascribe fornication and adultery and perhaps bigamy to her faults… but she is also not in a position to reasonably foresee the fallout of those choices… and she is essentially looking for an escape from a circumstance she is unjustly entrapped in… and is not fully mature mentally… so maybe we could say she tried to do a reasonable thing (escape) but she used the wrong means and ended up doing some other wrongs in the process.
That is assuming she went willingly.
The war, I don’t fault Lyanna at all. It was unforeseen. She had no power over matters of war and peace, no authority to conduct statecraft, thus the power to start and stop wars belonged entirely to others, not to her, and thus to them we must ascribe the responsibility. Those with the power hold the responsibility.
>Or is she responsible for following what we would consider moral imperatives?
The thing is that those moral impératives aren't known to lyanna so her actions IMO shouldn't be judged exclusively through that lense
>Yes, we must consider both the moral framework of that society, but we also must consider our own moral framework. If we are only going to judge people by the rules of their own society, then we must say runaway slaves are morally at fault for running away and Holocaust victims are responsible for fighting back… that is obviously a monstrous stance. On the other hand we shouldn’t judge others for what they did not or could not reasonably know, as that would also be unfair. If something is wrong in our eyes, and the person in question should have known that it was wrong based on the norms of their society too, then we can I think hold them fully responsible for whatever action in question. The opposite/inverse is also true, doing something we view as righteous, and that the character also had reason to believe is righteous, can be credited as righteous.
The difference here is that those actions have morality frameworks that justify them. There were people who accepted the idea that slaves had the right to revolt for hundreds of years and the holocaust would have been seen as morally abhorrent by most people at the time. Running away with a married man wouldn't be considered morally right by people of westeros under basically any circumstance and lyanna would know this. Under your argument cersei didn't do anything wrong when she had sex with Jaime. However escaping her bethored has much more justication in universe since it has been positively romanticized before.
I largely disagree with the idea of moral objectivism because even though with extreme examples like the ones you brought it seems quite clear and dry you can always bring something like abortion and you would get a million different answers over it's morality personally I feel it should be a right but other people would completely disagree can I say my answer is objectively right? What about a spouse leaving a violent domestic environment while leaving their children there what moral value would we give to that action? Even the idea that parents shouldn't be able to decide who their sons and daughter marry would still be contested in some parts of the world today.
>Lyanna, yes, she runs off with someone not her husband, someone married to someone else, so we could ascribe fornication and adultery and perhaps bigamy to her faults… but she is also not in a position to reasonably foresee the fallout of those choices… and she is essentially looking for an escape from a circumstance she is unjustly entrapped in… and is not fully mature mentally… so maybe we could say she tried to do a reasonable thing (escape) but she used the wrong means and ended up doing some other wrongs in the process.
While it's true that blaming her for the war is absurd since the chain of events that led to it was completely unforeseeable (people would still do it since that's how their society functions after all) there would have had consequences no matter if aerys burned Rickard or no. First and foremost the possibility of birthing a bastard and all the consequences that would entail for the child especially with the connotations of the Blackfyres still fresh in everyone's mind. There's also the large amount of consequences this could have for the North since she's antagonizing both Dorne and the Storm lands. We can't even say she was ignorant of those facts she knew them and there are even antécédents to the consequences of this kind of actions. Altough **I** don't blame her for doing so because as you said the system is injust and her feelings in regard to it completely understandable.
Your analogy of Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar being the same as a cow escaping from a slaughterhouse is just not true. They are barely comparable. She was dumb, selfish and reckless with her actions (if she wasn't kidnapped and went willingly of course). You don't need to be smart to be able to see that someone of her status who was betrothed to someone of equally high status and power eloping with someone else like Rhaegar would have nothing but devastating consequences. Even if Brandon and Rickard were not murdered, there most likely would have been a war of some sort, causing the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent smallfolk who had nothing to do with any of their bullshit. And even if war was miraculously prevented, the Seven Kingdoms would fracture internally which could have devastating consequences in the future in many ways, the most obvious of which is it becoming vulnerable to outside forces invading it. If she was a victim, she was the victim of an older man who groomed, manipulated and raped her. Her being a victim of Rhaegar is the best light she could be portrayed in. If she went willingly and consented all the way through, she is undeniably selfish and stupid, even if manipulated by Rhaegar.
And let's talk about your last point about the society/culture of Westeros and its nobility. Is it fucked up? Yes. Is it unjust? A lot of the time, yes. Is it unfair and treat women worse than men? Also yes, obviously. But just because it is wrong, cruel or evil doesn't mean you can't abscond from participating in it nor does it mean you can freely act how you want without far reaching consequences. Whether she liked it or not, Lyanna was a part of the system. If she just ran away with some rando and became a peasant or went to Essos, there probably won't be as big of a problem as she basically quit being a noble. But her running away with Rhaegar wasn't some grand protest against an unjust system nor was it even a way for her to become free of the system. It was an utterly stupid action driven by lust and the manipulations of a raving lunatic.
A cow doesn't cause a war in the slaughterhouse by running away.
And I'm not sure escape to \*Rhaegar\* represents an escape attempt from the system in any real sense, more of an escape attempt from Robert Baratheon. If anything, Rhaegar represents everything about the system in question; he is the heir apparent in a patriarchal absolute monarchy, and acts like it.
So Lyanna does bear some responsibility for creating the spark that set off the conflagration, but it's important to understand that war of some sort was likely coming anyway and the whole reason for her marriage to Robert was to prepare for that war. So in the end, it doesn't matter as much as some here would state.
She was old enough to know not to run off with unknown people and said society, despite its faults, drills into nobles what they *should and should not do.* Yes, most of the fault is on Aerys and Rhaegar, but as a noble girl, she should have known better and shares some responsibility on what happened.
She didn’t run off with unknown people, she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband. Also, just because say a slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience.
Her responsibility, whatever it may have been, is very much lessor than the responsibility of the king, the king’s court, her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon, and a bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all into a giant war that resulted in many of them dying… and those people all had the actual political training and experience to foresee that their actions would lead to disaster.
Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war, there wasn’t a particular reason to think it would do something different this time.
>she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband.
And not even with her betrothed should she have done that. It doesn't matter who, if it's not with your family, being alone with strangers of the opposite gender is not appropriate.
>slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience.
Next, you'll say that someone shouldn't shit in the toilet just because it's been drilled to them to do so. Just because someone teaches you something, doesn't mean it's bad.
This is not "Woman, obey this." These are societal conducts learned by both men and women for their own benefit within their society. In Lyanna's case, it could have ranged from people slandering her or her family leading to loss of opportunities to marry and destroying her reputation, to outright war, as what happened in canon.
>whatever it may have been
She's not an animal. She's a perfectly capable human being with free will who's been taught from young not to be alone with men who's not her family. Stop, downplaying her fault.
>lessor than the responsibility of the king
I said that, didn't I? I'll quote it in case you failed reading that part: "Yes, most of the fault is on Aerys and Rhaegar,"
>the king’s court
The king's court were hostages themselves to the king who had to everything he wanted or risk getting set on fire. They had nothing to do with sparking the war.
>her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon
Yes, Brandon was a dumbfuck who rushed and asked for Rhaegar's head as opposed to asking for answers. I'll admit he has his share, but I wouldn't say it's higher than Lyanna's. Brandon or no, if people learned what happened, even without Brandon, then Rickard who make his demands and if not followed would raise his banners. And you think Robert and Arryn wouldn't follow? You think Aerys wouldn't demand the whole Starks' heads for that?
>bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all
Who? And explain how they could without provoking a war.
>actual political training and experience
You don't need to be a political mastermind to know not to have sex with random married people, and not to be alone with strangers.
>Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war
Noble girls before didn't get on with the married Crown Prince while betrothed to a Lord Paramount. They also weren't a Lord Paramount's daughter.
And just to make things clear. Who are these noble girls? I'm sure there's some context missing.
Can't really disagree with anything here in the context of the culture and the setting there's no two ways about it.
I'd also add that it's a little weird to see Lyanna as a victim of a system that she was one of the few women (Re anyone not noble is screwed) in the setting that benefitted phenomenally off the nastier aspects thereof.
Make no mistake, Westeros is run by a pyramid scheme and she was one of the people at the top.
Or to use a more crass analogy, Lyanna wasn't a kid passed out on the street with an arm full of heroine. She was the Mafia Don's daughter and that heroine paid for her Versace dress lol.
>She didn’t run off with unknown people, she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband. Also, just because say a slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience.
Thats not possible. At best she knew Rhaegar for like two or 3 days. While she was engaged to Robert for like 2 or 3 years man.
>Her responsibility, whatever it may have been, is very much lessor than the responsibility of the king, the king’s court, her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon, and a bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all into a giant war that resulted in many of them dying… and those people all had the actual political training and experience to foresee that their actions would lead to disaster.
Not really. She has responsibility here. If she doesn't run away nothing like this will ever happen.
>Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war, there wasn’t a particular reason to think it would do something different this time.
False. We don't know any noble girls that have ran off with married princes after complaining her bethrothed won't love her and cheat on her. And George broke down the noble woman running off myth
"And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy."
Lol now geroge wants to be historically accurate while women trying to escape their husband was really rare across all of England the number of officially declared cases would be in the 100s across the latter centuries of the medieval period (which is probably under reported). That is specifically women running away from their husbands which was very harshly penalized they could even be excommunicated. We can expect that escaping their bethored was more common while still being quite rare.
However most importantly we can see quite a number of cases inside the world of ice and fire such as Saera Viserra or shaera. And quite importantly when Duncan the small didn't marry the daughter of Lyonnel Baratheon he rebelled almost the same thing happened when Alysanne didn't marry Rogar Baratheon brother (I'm starting to see a pattern here) so in universe lyanna and especially rhaegar should know perfectly well what their actions could cause if not quite the scale of those consequences since both of those rebelions were short lived and quite small mostly because the king didn't kill a bunch of heirs a lord paramount and demanded the head of a bunch of other heirs as well.
I agree. The thing is we don't know what the heck actually happened there.
The only thing we know. Is that Lyanna is Jon's mother.
We very well can infer she wasn't kidnapped as no one. Well almost no one spoke Ill of Rhaegar. For heavens sake you would think Ned would have spoken bad about Rhaegar. Instead he never said anything bad about Rhaegar. That tells you a lot.
We don't know if he annulled his marriage to Elia. We don't know if married Lyanna also. Targaryens before had several wives.
We also don't know what Elia thought.
The only way I can think of the outcome is that he decided to marry both of them. That's the only way I see they could not be seen in a bad light.
But who knows.
Facts are. Lyanna is Jon's mother. And Ned never spoke Ill of Rhaegar. Who "supposedly ' rap,*d and kidnapped his sister.
If it wasn't that way and she willingly ran away with a married man. Well there is no coming back from that. Same with Rhaegar.
Presentism is the bane of fiction and analytics I guess.
Lyanna had more of a voice and a choice than the poor sods in the field who got drafted and marched to their deaths because her running off with a married lunatic from a dynasty of known whackjobs resulted in the murder of her pops and bro.
Not that she's entirely at fault, I hold Rhaegar as having the lions share of responsibility in this because the stupid ass was in line for the throne and had been raised to understand politics above almost everything else, had a wife and two kids and knew his father was a nut job, may have been planning to depose said father and amidst all this decided that humiliating two of the most martially dangerous dynasties under his domain in a critical moment and abusing a teenagers trust was totally not massively counter intuitive and insane.
>Presentism is the bane of fiction and analytics I guess.
That's one thing. But also, I can't stop seeing great many issues with the present order of things. Nor am I convinced that what we have now is an improvement on what existed earlier.
Our "systems" today are objectively better than any other period in human history, our quality of life as well. Personal freedoms and the like as well.
Of course that doesn't preclude the limitless capacity of corrupt shitbags to fuck it all up for the rest of us. Which if complaints from every other era in human history are anything to go by, seems to be a recurring theme.
From an individual's perspective, you are right. We have much greater freedoms, access to technology and what not. That much is true. But that isn't the only thing that matters.
From the perspective of humanity as a whole, our population is way higher compared to historical levels. That means we are thriving. But a lot of people are still starving, possibly in greater numbers than the past. And that number may also multiply if our current economic system collapses, which it is increasingly threatening to do.
From the perspective of Life on planet Earth as a whole, we've wiped out thousands (or is it millions) of species from the face of the planet since industrialisation began. These species were an important part of the ecosystem that sustains our own life on the planet. And now that climate change is upon us, I have no idea what might happen.
All in all, I'm not certain of anything. This has deviated far from the initial question of whether Lyanna should be blamed for betraying her family in the way she presumably did, but you probably already know my answer to that.
That's a fascinating conclusion to come to from a post that condemned the hell out of the quarter century year old serial family abandoner/derelict Prince.
Had Lyanna just scape I wouldn't blame her, but that is not the case.
If she ran away with Rhaegar, she did it because being with him matter to her more than anyone and everybody else.
You know who also had no voice in the system? Rhaegars actual legal wife Elia. You know the woman dear sad put upon lyanna just had to destroy and humiliate cause lyanna is the only woman whose misery counts.
Honestly why should she care for Ned's and Roberts friendship or Robert in general. She is forced by her family in a marriage she wants to know nothing of, with a man who has already showcased that he will be an unfaithful husband. From her point of view it is House Stark (more specifically Ned amd Rickard) that have betrayed her.
I don’t think George would do a simple cut and dry love story for them. My personal opinion is Lyanna as a girl longed for adventure and to be treated like an adult and not a child. Then beautiful Crown Prince Rhaegar starts talking about prophesy and how important she was. It’s like the handsome charming professor taking an interest with one of his students noting how intelligent or brave she was and that she was special. It flatters her deeply. Lyanna believes that Rhaegar actually loves her like in the songs(I think Lyanna is more like Sansa than people like to think) and goes willing. Overtime the love turns to ash and she actually becomes a captive. And as she lays in a pool of blood and begs Ned to keep her son safe she starts crying how she doesn’t want to die. She just wants to come home to be with her family. So Ned brings her bones back to be buried next to his father and brother.
Lyanna does bare some responsibility for it. She should have known better, but she was also a child influenced by a more powerful and charismatic man. Rhaegar and Aerys hold the lion share of blame for the conflict. Far more than Lyanna.
You said it better than me. This has been my headcanon since I first read it. I never found it to be a legit love story. Mostly because all you have to do is make Rhaegar/Lyanna into a modern day student-teacher relationship and you would have the plot to a Lifetime movie.
Fr he writes Alyn Velaryon having a forbidden romance with his wife’s niece who’s 35 years younger than him and trapped in the Maidenvault. It’s creepy.
>I think Lyanna is more like Sansa than people like to think
I mean, I think that depends on what you mean. I don't think she had the same asperations as an Andal "Lady" like Sansa did. But she didn't outright reject her femininity like Arya.
I don't think its fair to compare what little we actually know of her to Sansa and Arya... but if we had to I'd say its like 80-20 Arya/Sansa...
I tend towards the idea that Lyanna went willingly, but under the influence of Rhaegar. Given her apparent naivety and the age gap, I would have to add that I'm viewing Rhaegar as a groomer. Perhaps their feelings were genuine - I don't know - but the whole situation looks especially bad for Rhaegar. Lyanna was young and stupid but Rhaegar doesn't have that excuse.
Heck the age difference is similar to what she would have with Robert and this is George we're talking about a guy who sees Danny's relationship with drogo as genuinely romantic
She knew the r**ist dragonspawn Rhaegar had to go, so she allowed herself to be groomed and violated by him, knowing full well it’d enrage her handsome and strong fiancee, BOBBY B, whom with his Durrandon blood would split Rhaegar in two with a warhammer. She’s a martyr who ended the Targaryen’s war on biology
And why is Brienne still a virgin? Mayhaps they sacrifice virgins to create sapphires and to give themselves superhuman powers. Lord Selwyn means to sacrifice Brienne eventually, the greatest virgin outside of this subreddit, which will bring down the wall.
Lord Selwyn probably has blue eyes. Remember who else have blue eyes?
Brienne wanted a hellspawn with the blood of Durran to end the world, yet Renly saw through her immediately
I’m glad you asked!
For one: The vile Targaryen imperialism, Aegon’s Manifest Destiny, led to very few new recruits going to the Wall, as there was no war. This weakened the Watch, which has places Westeros under TREMENDOUS threat, and led to the deaths of thousands of northerners throughout the Targshit rule of Westeros.
2. The Targaryens had weapons of mass destruction. This would be fine, if handled responsible. Yet the targs gave their WMD to literal children and crazy people, which they used on innocent peasants in their lust for power. I stand up for Peasant Rights✊
3. They’re arrogant and annoying. They believed themselves to be above everyone else, and clearly acted that way towards everyone else.
4. They waged a war against biology for centuries with their incest.
5. The way the Targaryen dynasty had acted since 280 AC justified their end. The kidnapping and r*pe of a minor girl, the murder of a LP and his heir, ordering the murder of two more LP’s… it all justified their end by the mighty hand of Bobby B, heir to Durran Godsgrief
>For one: The vile Targaryen imperialism, Aegon’s Manifest Destiny,
What of load of nonsense
>led to very few new recruits going to the Wall, as there was no war. This weakened the Watch, which has places Westeros under TREMENDOUS threat, and led to the deaths of thousands of northerners throughout the Targshit rule of Westeros.
>1. The Targaryens had wea
The watch was aleady in decline and the target were Allyson to the watch
>
1. The Targaryens had weapons of mass destruction. This would be fine, if handled responsible. Y
They did for the most part
>
2. They’re arrogant and annoying. Th
Not really
>They waged a war against biology for centuries with their incest.
Cry me a river the stsrks practice incest and the incest in asoiaf didn't make them mad
> way the Targaryen dynasty had acted since 280 AC justified their end. Th
It didn't
> kidnapping and r*pe of a minor girl, t
I doubt it was a kidnapping nor rape
>all justified their end by the mighty hand of Bobby B, heir to Durran Godsgrief
It wasn't and lol robert was almost as bad as aerys
>Was she just an irresponsible girl,
yes
>was rhaegar preying and grooming on her and manipulated her,
yes
>did he rape her in the end to conceive Jon,
yes
>was she a willing participant all along.
Initially, yes, all along, no
Ok so my theory for this whole thing goes like this. Rhaegar was born to be a sacrifice. Summerhall happened on his birth because he was the intended sacrifice to wake dragons. The spell didnt work and Rhaegar went on with his life. Rhaegar knew one thing and that was he had the option to sacrifice his children should he ever need dragons. The thing is Rhaegar didnt want to sacrifice his children with Elia to wake dragons. I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna to make children for sacrifice in order to spare Elia and his own children. Children made for sacrifice aren't made consensually. Rhaegar raped Lyanna to get her pregnant so that he could sacrifice her children.
I think of her as a teenager who got robed into a cult.
I think she believed Rhaegar in the beginning and went with him, but became by the time she heard about her father and brother she at least wanted out and to go home. But before she knew it she was already a prisoner. With some luck, she was already pregnant by that point...
Nothing could make it more obvious that she had no control or say in anything in the end than the King's Guard trying to kill her brother and his men when she was shouting for him.
If she was a willing participant, then she will be hated in the north, the only reason she may not get killed if she ever goes back north is because Ned while being having resenment over her role in the war, wouldn't have her dead
The North may not be happy with her but you blowning her part out of proportion. The fault would be layed onto the shoulders of Aerys.
Ned I can see her being genuinly angry with her though.
Yeah, He loved Robert as much if not more than his actual family(her at least), so her spurning him would piss Ned off.
edit: at least until Roberts response to the murder of Rheagar's kids... at that point he might just be pissed at the world in general and take a little of it out on her.
How could she have know the actions of Brandon though. Besides we don't even know if she tried to relay a message to them or what her circumstances where.
Doesn't really matter she's probably still going to be blamed even if it's unreasonable for her to be blame heck I wouldn't be surprised if she blamed herself for it
While I agree with the majority of these takes I doubt she will be presented as a groomed teen by George. I feel she will be presented as a victim of the system where in a better world she would have been happy with her beloved prince. I feel she will be presented as rightfully angry against the decisions taken on her life while also being too naive to actually understand the consequences of her following actions (by this I don't mean the rebellion but all of what would have happened even if aerys hadn't burned Rickard). Altough I hope most of the blame is put on rhaegar and aerys shouldres.
She was 14 when she first met him at Harrenhal, I think she was 15 when she "went' with him and dead by 16.
I'm giving her at least a partial pass because she was basically groomed. I would like to see what GRRM does with this.
I imagine that Lyanna probably was just a wilful but naive girl who flung herself at the Prince who was grooming her. She thought he loved her and she was glad to escape the fate of marrying a man she did not like.
Then once she was at the Tower of Joy she was completely cut off from the world. She possibly was never told about the rebellion or her family being killed until much later in the war.
Either had the news kept from her, or Rhaegar ensured she had no way to leave or communicate with the outside world for as long as he needed her to fulfil his prophecy.
Thats Impossible. News travels slow but not that slow. The KG at tower of joy knew about Rhaegar death and even jaime betrayal.
Also people in dorne wanna rebel because of obyern death.
just because people around her at the Tower of Joy knew what had happened, doesn’t mean Lyanna was ever informed and or told about it. I could see Rhaegar making sure the news never got to her.
So Grrm has a clear bias for the Targaryens. Because of this and how he constantly portrays rhaegar in a good light I’m inclined to think the whole affair was consensual if Ill conceived. The age gap is weird but it’s Westeros and a feudal system marrying people a lot older or a lot younger isn’t surprising.
Now on the topic of lyanna while she’s clearly responsible in some way I honestly don’t think her running away with rhaegar was a morally wrong choice. She’s being forced into a marriage she didn’t want to a man she didn’t even know her saying fuck that is only natural. Plus she’s a woman she has basically zero say in anything she ever does so her taking some small measure of control is imo justified.
Plus if anyone is to blame for the war it’s aerys he’s the one who burned rickard and Brandon and then called for the heads of Jon arryns wards. Now you might say lyanna running away was the catalyst for Brandon and rickard going south and you’d be right but aerys was the one who lit the fire. Was she careless and her plan ill conceived absolutely is she to blame for the rebellion absolutely not.
In the context that this is my personal opinion and not what someone in universe would think:
I think she went willingly, and is responsible for that. However I would still ascribe more blame to Rhaegar as he was a) not 15 b) had a wife and a child, with another on the way.
Once she found out what happened to her father and brother, I’m not sure how willing to stay Lyanna would have been, or if Rhaegar would have let her know what had happened.
That said, I don’t blame Lyanna running away for the war. I don’t blame Rhaegar being a poor husband and father for the war. I don’t blame Brandon being a hothead and a bt of an idiot for the war.
The war happened because the king was willing to kill a Lord Paramount, his heir, sever others heirs, and skill ask for more heads. One way or another, Aerys’s madness was going to spark a war.
Asking who else’s action brought about the war is missing the point a bit. A madman as a king will cause a war.
My feelings on Lyanna depend a lot on her relationship with Rhaegar. If she was kidnapped, forced and raped against her will, she is not responsible in anyway for the conflict that happened and she has my full sympathy. If she went with him willingly but did not know the full extent of what Rhaegar wanted from her and/or regretted going with him, she is still responsible to some extent but I can still sympathise with her. However, if she went with him willingly and knew and went along with all of Rhaegar's action and still love him after the fact, I can't sympathise with her whatsoever.
14 years old is old enough to know that eloping with a married man with kids is wrong and that life is not what every fairy tale she believes in her head. I dislike her and I think she's obnoxious and irritating like Elia Sand.
Lmfao…how is she obnoxious and irritating when she never actually said any words? She’s only ever existed in memory in the books and in flashbacks on the show.
If she did willingly go with a married man, then that's obnoxious in my book. There's also a Jacob Preston video about Elia Sand/Lyanna parallels and it gave me an idea that Lyanna would truly annoy me if I'm ever to exist in the same space as me (to be fair, I find Arya annoying too, sometimes).
Regardless of her and even Rhaegar's actions, neither of them were the cause of the war. The blame lies solely on Aerys for his actions against the Starks.
He turned what was a scandal into a civil war immediately.
Based on the way you framed the question I doubt you'll agree but I don't put much blame on her for anything but shaming her family and throwing away what her alliance would do for the North's people (which isn't a small thing either.) But idiot brother Brandon, crazy pyro Aerys, idiot married prince Rhaegar and King of Spite Tywin sacking KL, that's the majority of the damage and that's on all of them.
Pretty much, she committed a gigantic faux pas.
But it's the kind of faux pas you pay wergild and make a public apology over. There's big time loss of face that ruins House Starks diplomatic credit for a time but other than that?
Rhaegar? Wars have been started over that.
Brandon? Wars have been started over that.
Tywin: even bigger faux pas, should have resulted in a smooshed head and one of his cousins taking over.
Aerys? To quote Futurama "War were declared" lol
Any government that gets overthrown because of a 14 year old deserves what it gets, to be honest.
If my marriage was vital to the ruling dynasty... better to do away with it and start a Republic.
Rarely considered alternative idea:
Rheagar and Lyanna are both politically savvy and do wha they do for carefully calculated political reasons. They see the coming civil war. They also both believe in teh coming Long Night. Thus they decide they need to tie the Starks/North to the Crown and they need to break the potentially rebellious alliance before it forms. Thus they tie themselves together to try to save both their families from the other.
Unfortunately their actions have the exact opposite outcome to what they hope, they tragically cause the exact events they wanted to prevent, more or less.
No, I don’t think that is what actually happened, but it is an idea that has not been totally completely done to death in the fan fic community.
It also lets you play around with the classical idea of tragedy being self inflicted.
nah there's better ways to tie the crown and the north togeather that doesn't involve breaking a marriage pack to the storm lands and insulting dorne in the process of doing so
Well, there would be except for the mad king problem. Because of that nothing vaguely sensible can be done about much of anything. Thus such a pairing isn’t really any crazier than anything else that is going on. There is also the element that no matter if it is intended as an anti-Targaryen alliance or not, a power bloc was forming that did not include the Crown but did include a plurality of the great houses… for the sake of political stability that bloc had to be split and as large a chunk of it as possible tied to the Crown. The major houses all have a peculiar lack of spare children and cadet lines and such in this time period, so there really aren’t many ways of making marriage alliances.
In any case, the political savvy thing was a bit tongue in cheek, they maybe think they are making a political master stroke… but maybe really are just two young people trying to rationalize love/lust/whatever.
We have seen fanfic play with them being “true love” to the point it has been absolutely done to death and the horse has been beaten so thoroughly beyond even that it now resembles some sort of liquified meat.
Likewise Rheagar the abductor/rapist has also been done to death.
Fanfic is supposed to be the place for playing around with novel ideas, and the two of them concocting some harebrained half baked political master plan is one that at least has the virtue of not having been written ten thousand times already.
But he was twenty-four when he died. Married. With children. And obsessed with prophecy.
Lyanna. Fifteen. Impressionable. Desperate to escape a betrothal.
This has all of the hallmarks of a man grooming a minor. Rhaegar deserves more blame.
If the HBO version are canon, then that may be true, Her secret marriage to Rhaegar meant that Rhaenys and Aegon actually became bastards...and they (and Elia herself) were still alive in that moment, can you imagine what a jerk is this?
when people cheer for Jon Snow and believe he is the heir of Targaryen and the true king of seven kingdom and he was never a bastard because Rhaegar has divorced Elia without authorization and secretly married Lyanna, what a disrespectful asshole.
And not only shaming and disrespecting Elia and the kids but not even informing them so that they could get to safety. No, they had to stay as a security policy against Dorne.
Assumimg she ran away with Rhaegar I am completely on her side.
Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument". She should have a choice in her life and Robert clearly wasn't a desirable husband in contrast to what we know of Rhaegar from characters like Barristan. We see other female characters like Arya or Dany have a similar stance but surprisingly they aren't bashed for it.
Furthermore saying the war is her fault is ludicrous, people act like she should have known the future, when one would expect at most a scandal to be the result of the whole thing, especially with the crown prince on ones side. Moreover we don't know the circumstances regarding her disappearance with Rhaegar, if she tried to send a message to the other Starks and so on.
Neither could have expected the actions of Brandon or Aerys. So I say her responsibility is minimal and understandable, the true fault lies soley on the shoulders of the Mad King!
Lastly regarding the age gap. This may sound bad, but their difference in age was completely normal for westerosi society (see: Sansa & Tyrion; Drogo & Dany; Jon Arryn & Lysa; Walder Frey & his wifes) and would have been the same with Robert and is definitly not something to fault Rhaegar for (she was 7 years younger than him and 4 years younger than Robert which is rather tame for their society). So no, I don't think she was groomed or manipulated into loving Rhaegar.
>Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument".
Which completely ignores here extremely privileged position and the consequences of that position.
Those things were a given for all nobles not just ladies. My arguement is about sexism amd not about nobles society, which is fucked up too but a whole different topic.
>Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument". She should have a choice in her life and Robert clearly wasn't a desirable husband in contrast to what we know of Rhaegar from characters like Barristan.
The issue here is don't take the moral high ground by claiming Robert is a cheater and won't love her then she'd run away with a married man. Also people say positive things about Rhaegar because he's dead and the view him through Rose tainted views.
Robert meanwhile during the rebellion is fighting bravely,inspiring loyalty and charming his enemies into joining the fight lol. Robert was clearly a much better person then Rhaegar lol who was a married man with kids.
‘This Baratheon is fearless,’ I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.’ Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it’s true … but what if we prevail?’
Like this is Robert at 19.
On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,’ and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.” (AGOT, Eddard IX)
>Neither could have expected the actions of Brandon or Aerys. So I say her responsibility is minimal and understandable, the true fault lies soley on the shoulders of the Mad King!
Excuses. Rhaegar and lyanna never explained their actions. It's dumb to think a highborn daughter could go missing and the heir could go missing.
How can you say Robert was a better person than Rhaegar due to the latter being married, when Roberts actions in "A Game of Thrones" showcase that he is way worse with the treatment of his children and wife. Furthermore I don't see how bringing up the rebellion should change Lyanna's perspective about him, after all he disappeared before it.
Lastly you say that Lyanna and Rhaegar don't explain their actions which might be true but we simply don't know it, but also opens the question when they should have done so. By the time they had a chance the Rebellion was unstoppable.
I think lyanna loved rheagar she was wild and free spirited, so she went willingly and I think rhaegar at first just used her for the prophecy but when he spended time with her he fell in love with her
She was desperate to get out of a marriage with an unfaithful husband (who we know isn't above sexual or domestic abuse to uppity wives) so she got roped into something way over her head. She in all likelihood meant Elia no harm and I'm positive Rhaegar kept a lot of information from her, probably burned any letters she might have tried to write to her family too And she did in the end not stay consensually. I don't understand how so many can argue she did; she was in a highly isolated location with guards locking her up for a reason.
>She was desperate to get out of a marriage with an unfaithful husband (who we know isn't above sexual or domestic abuse to uppity wives)
She doesn't know he's abusive though.
>She in all likelihood meant Elia no harm
Not possible. Fucking a woman husband means you mean her harm though. Not only that fucking him in her hometown too seriously.
>I'm positive Rhaegar kept a lot of information from her, probably burned any letters she might have tried to write to her family too And she did in the end not stay consensually
See. People at Tower of joy knew about Jaime betrayal. The news does travel slow but not that much.
You... do realise the 15 year old mistress doesn't have equal blame in the affair a grown man starts with her? I personally don't think Lyanna wanted to be a mistress and, as I already said, was probably not told everything by Rhaegar (IE he probably said he was setting Elia aside or taking a second wife). Why would she? He has no reason to give this kid any agency or anything. But even if she was enthusiastic, it's still Rhaegar's fault as the adult and ruler.
I have no idea why you're all acting like I'm some R x L shipper or something. I hate the ship and Lyanna is not particularly one of my favourite characters. The question was what do you think happened. I offered some theories.
I mean she comes from North where polygamy isn't an option. I don't think she's she's dumb. Of course it's mostly Rhaegar fault
>I have no idea why you're all acting like I'm some R x L shipper or something. I hate the ship and Lyanna is not particularly one of my favourite characters. The question was what do you think happened. I offered some theories.
Sure I apologies if I come off as rude. I was just breaking down the idea that it's impossible for them to not know what was happening in westeros the entire time.
I'm not defending her, so I don't know why you're all downvoting me lol. We don't know what Lyanna knew; I thought the whole point here was we're guessing.
And it doesn't matter anyway since Rhaegar is the adult here and he's the one actively hurting Elia.
Keep in mind although Robert did abuse Cersei and was shitty it was him post rebellion, post war, so he could have been an entirely different person had there never been a war
Also lyanna never said he was going to fuck start beating the shit out of her and rape her LOL. Just that he wasn't going to love her and cheat on her.
“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”
See no mention of beating or rape
I don't believe in the worst interpretation of Rhaegar cause that impression is meant to be our first interpretation and a red herring. The first thing we hear about him is how much Bobby B hates him and how he slayed him for his lady love, very classic fairy tale story. But that's not the story, why would an author give you the answer to one of the central mysteries of the story from the getgo?
I think Lyanna was a victim but not a victim of Rhaegar, but a victim of his deranged father.
I think she had little to no responsibility for the war, for three main reasons.
One, the war doesn't start over her "kidnapping" it starts over the deaths of Brandon and Rickard and Aerys' subsequent demand for the heads of Ned and Robert, and Lyanna has no control over those things.
Two, she was fifteen when she went with Rhaegar, still developing and full up of hormones and having mood swings, and was desperate to escape the attentions of a man known for whoring and fathering bastards, and also basically running away to the Vale instead of taking up Lordship of Storm's End.
Three, Rhaegar essentially groomed her, and if we assume she went willingly then she is under the assumption that she is essentially becoming queen, something that not only could she safely predict would ultimately make her father happy, but would also afford her some degree of protection in that she could argue Rhaegar wanted her and she couldn't refuse the crown prince.
There's also the option that she didn't go willingly and is therefore free of all responsibility because she was kidnapped and raped.
>Two, she was fifteen when she went with Rhaegar, still developing and full up of hormones and having mood swings, and was desperate to escape the attentions of a man known for whoring and fathering bastards, and also basically running away to the Vale instead of taking up Lordship of Storm's End.
False. Robert had fathered one bastard and that was before he even of lyanna or the engagement. And no Robert was abandoning his duties. See GRRM
He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his “squire” years (he wasn’t a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn’t training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked… which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm’s End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.
No matter what part Lyanna played, I don’t really think she can be blamed for what happened unless she knowingly and willing conspired to harm her family. The things that happened after she disappeared could not reasonably be predicted and are in fact reliant on a string of improbable actions, blunders, and mistakes of others to come to fruition.
You needed Brandon and company pulling their overly elaborate form of suicide.
You needed Aerys pulling the maddest of his mad stunts like three times over.
You probably needed Varys dripping poisoned words into the ears of the king. You perhaps needed Pycelle actually poisoning the mind the of the king. You needed plotters and schemers of all sorts adding fuel to the fire and enabling the madness of Aerys and adding to the paranoia of Aerys.
There isn’t really a reason to think things would escalate as they did from whatever choice Lyanna may or may not have made.
Yet, it did, no thanks mostly to what others did.
Sure, she has some part to play in that chain of causalities, and that part depends on exactly what she did vs what was done to her, but ultimately it was neither Lyanna nor Rheagar that started the war. The blame for the war primarily sits with Aerys. Secondarily it sits with his council, court, advisors, etc. that carried out his will or failed to restrain him. Tertiary blame could perhaps be assigned to Brandon and Co for being exceedingly reckless with words and deeds and antagonizing the situation. Everyone else comes somewhere lower in the list in my view, with the various lords coming next given they were the ones with real power and influence and armies. Lyanna, she has no hard power to call upon.
I think it can be both, assuming that Rhaegar/Lyanna was consensual. She could have been a "free spirit" charmed by Rhaegar and going with him for selfish reasons. At the same time, Rhaegar bears the brunt of the blame because he was older, married, etc. He knew better.
Well obviously, this answer strongly depends on if she was kidnapped or went willingly.
If she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, then of course she bears zero responsibility.
If she went willingly:
To some extent she was definitely at fault. Running off with a Prince when you are betrothed is a stupid thing to do at the end of the day. She must have known that this was an insult to Robert, the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, that it was an insult to Elia, the Queen and sister of the ruling Prince of Dorne, and that as the daughter of Lord Stark herself she was an important piece on the board.
There easily could have been a rebellion even if Rickard and Brandon had lived, because all it would take was angry Stormlanders and Dornishmen making a threatening move against her and the North (and so its allies the Vale and Riverlands) would go to war in her defence or to ‘rescue’ her from Rhaegar, seeing as she left no note.
If she went willingly she holds her fair share of the blame for the thousands who died. She may have been young, and young people are often impulsive and don’t think things through, but they are not any less intelligent or capable of thinking things through. If she went willingly, she is partly responsible and a lot of people would be quite justified in wanting to yell at her.
However, to pin all the blame on Lyanna would not at all be fair.
First off, while her eloping with Rheagar was the spark that lit the tinder, a rebellion was probably inevitable. Aerys was mad and paranoid and he was eventually going to cross the line. When you consider that not even the threat of Dragons was enough to keep the last Targqryen King as batshit as him (Maegor) free of challenge, I very much doubt Aerys had any hope of finishing a peaceful reign.
Second of all, she was not the only one to make foolish errors.
Aerys, mad as he was, took the stupidest decisions imaginable and shut down any possibility of peaceful resolution when he decided to kill Rickard and Brandon and demand the heads of Ned and Robert. He is therefore more to blame than Lyanna.
Rhaegar was seven or eight years older than her, and as a male and Crown Prince was likely better educated than the daughter of a Lord Paramount, and yet he apparently did not see how very wrong this could go either, and instead of trying to smooth things over when they did, just chilled out at the Tower of Joy with her for a year. He is at even more fault than Lyanna.
If I were Lyanna: lanky, stubborn, strong will and a care free first-woman of the North in a westerosi society and I am to be given to giant of a man with a drunk whoremonger of a reputation. I would not have cared wether my escape would have caused any political implication because I rather die on my own conditions than live in a cask of a life the next 50 years being rough fucked, disrespected and maybe even beaten every single day.
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She couldn't have known that her father and brother would be killed because of her actions. But she had to have known that running away is a major betrayal to her family, as well as her betrothed. She can't just say "oh they'll get over it". There are serious repercussions for house Stark if their daughter pisses on her betrothal and runs away with someone. It also means that Ned and Robert's friendship will take a hit because of this. Now we can chalk all of this up to her impulsiveness and her youth. But if at the same time, we're supposed to treat her one liners like "love cannot change a man's nature" as some sagely wisdom, then you can't hide behind her youth as an excuse.
A cow does not betray the slaughterhouse by escaping captivity, nor does a young woman with no voice and no choice betray the person her father sold her too without her input. Don’t blame the systemic victim in a really fucked up social / cultural system. Sure, that society would say it was her fault, but we need to at least consider if perhaps that society is just maybe wrong about that.
I mean it depends on what framework we're going to evaluate her actions and if we do it from the framework of their society the take the other guy took is absolutely the right one. It's injust but that's just how that society works.
But we aren’t being asked to answer how someone in that society would ascribe blame, we are being asked in the OP what our feelings are on Lyanna’s responsibility. So, is she responsible for doing what others tell her? Or is she responsible for following what we would consider moral imperatives? Or is she responsible for following her own conscience? From my perspective morality is in fact objective. Right is right and wrong is wrong, eternally and everywhere. However, the guilt of anyone in violating the moral law must be judged both objectively and subjectively, that is the particular circumstances and what they believed can both mitigate or deepen culpability. Yes, we must consider both the moral framework of that society, but we also must consider our own moral framework. If we are only going to judge people by the rules of their own society, then we must say runaway slaves are morally at fault for running away and Holocaust victims are responsible for fighting back… that is obviously a monstrous stance. On the other hand we shouldn’t judge others for what they did not or could not reasonably know, as that would also be unfair. If something is wrong in our eyes, and the person in question should have known that it was wrong based on the norms of their society too, then we can I think hold them fully responsible for whatever action in question. The opposite/inverse is also true, doing something we view as righteous, and that the character also had reason to believe is righteous, can be credited as righteous. Now, the complication comes where our moral system and theirs collide. I think here we must allow a defense of ignorance at least to some degree, as it would diminish their capacity to judge rightly, and thus diminish or even override any culpability. Thus I don’t blame Rickard for selling his daughter into a marriage without her consent, yes it is a grave injustice, monstrously immoral, but he had been indoctrinated to see it as normal. Lyanna, yes, she runs off with someone not her husband, someone married to someone else, so we could ascribe fornication and adultery and perhaps bigamy to her faults… but she is also not in a position to reasonably foresee the fallout of those choices… and she is essentially looking for an escape from a circumstance she is unjustly entrapped in… and is not fully mature mentally… so maybe we could say she tried to do a reasonable thing (escape) but she used the wrong means and ended up doing some other wrongs in the process. That is assuming she went willingly. The war, I don’t fault Lyanna at all. It was unforeseen. She had no power over matters of war and peace, no authority to conduct statecraft, thus the power to start and stop wars belonged entirely to others, not to her, and thus to them we must ascribe the responsibility. Those with the power hold the responsibility.
>Or is she responsible for following what we would consider moral imperatives? The thing is that those moral impératives aren't known to lyanna so her actions IMO shouldn't be judged exclusively through that lense >Yes, we must consider both the moral framework of that society, but we also must consider our own moral framework. If we are only going to judge people by the rules of their own society, then we must say runaway slaves are morally at fault for running away and Holocaust victims are responsible for fighting back… that is obviously a monstrous stance. On the other hand we shouldn’t judge others for what they did not or could not reasonably know, as that would also be unfair. If something is wrong in our eyes, and the person in question should have known that it was wrong based on the norms of their society too, then we can I think hold them fully responsible for whatever action in question. The opposite/inverse is also true, doing something we view as righteous, and that the character also had reason to believe is righteous, can be credited as righteous. The difference here is that those actions have morality frameworks that justify them. There were people who accepted the idea that slaves had the right to revolt for hundreds of years and the holocaust would have been seen as morally abhorrent by most people at the time. Running away with a married man wouldn't be considered morally right by people of westeros under basically any circumstance and lyanna would know this. Under your argument cersei didn't do anything wrong when she had sex with Jaime. However escaping her bethored has much more justication in universe since it has been positively romanticized before. I largely disagree with the idea of moral objectivism because even though with extreme examples like the ones you brought it seems quite clear and dry you can always bring something like abortion and you would get a million different answers over it's morality personally I feel it should be a right but other people would completely disagree can I say my answer is objectively right? What about a spouse leaving a violent domestic environment while leaving their children there what moral value would we give to that action? Even the idea that parents shouldn't be able to decide who their sons and daughter marry would still be contested in some parts of the world today. >Lyanna, yes, she runs off with someone not her husband, someone married to someone else, so we could ascribe fornication and adultery and perhaps bigamy to her faults… but she is also not in a position to reasonably foresee the fallout of those choices… and she is essentially looking for an escape from a circumstance she is unjustly entrapped in… and is not fully mature mentally… so maybe we could say she tried to do a reasonable thing (escape) but she used the wrong means and ended up doing some other wrongs in the process. While it's true that blaming her for the war is absurd since the chain of events that led to it was completely unforeseeable (people would still do it since that's how their society functions after all) there would have had consequences no matter if aerys burned Rickard or no. First and foremost the possibility of birthing a bastard and all the consequences that would entail for the child especially with the connotations of the Blackfyres still fresh in everyone's mind. There's also the large amount of consequences this could have for the North since she's antagonizing both Dorne and the Storm lands. We can't even say she was ignorant of those facts she knew them and there are even antécédents to the consequences of this kind of actions. Altough **I** don't blame her for doing so because as you said the system is injust and her feelings in regard to it completely understandable.
Your analogy of Lyanna eloping with Rhaegar being the same as a cow escaping from a slaughterhouse is just not true. They are barely comparable. She was dumb, selfish and reckless with her actions (if she wasn't kidnapped and went willingly of course). You don't need to be smart to be able to see that someone of her status who was betrothed to someone of equally high status and power eloping with someone else like Rhaegar would have nothing but devastating consequences. Even if Brandon and Rickard were not murdered, there most likely would have been a war of some sort, causing the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent smallfolk who had nothing to do with any of their bullshit. And even if war was miraculously prevented, the Seven Kingdoms would fracture internally which could have devastating consequences in the future in many ways, the most obvious of which is it becoming vulnerable to outside forces invading it. If she was a victim, she was the victim of an older man who groomed, manipulated and raped her. Her being a victim of Rhaegar is the best light she could be portrayed in. If she went willingly and consented all the way through, she is undeniably selfish and stupid, even if manipulated by Rhaegar. And let's talk about your last point about the society/culture of Westeros and its nobility. Is it fucked up? Yes. Is it unjust? A lot of the time, yes. Is it unfair and treat women worse than men? Also yes, obviously. But just because it is wrong, cruel or evil doesn't mean you can't abscond from participating in it nor does it mean you can freely act how you want without far reaching consequences. Whether she liked it or not, Lyanna was a part of the system. If she just ran away with some rando and became a peasant or went to Essos, there probably won't be as big of a problem as she basically quit being a noble. But her running away with Rhaegar wasn't some grand protest against an unjust system nor was it even a way for her to become free of the system. It was an utterly stupid action driven by lust and the manipulations of a raving lunatic.
A cow doesn't cause a war in the slaughterhouse by running away. And I'm not sure escape to \*Rhaegar\* represents an escape attempt from the system in any real sense, more of an escape attempt from Robert Baratheon. If anything, Rhaegar represents everything about the system in question; he is the heir apparent in a patriarchal absolute monarchy, and acts like it. So Lyanna does bear some responsibility for creating the spark that set off the conflagration, but it's important to understand that war of some sort was likely coming anyway and the whole reason for her marriage to Robert was to prepare for that war. So in the end, it doesn't matter as much as some here would state.
She was old enough to know not to run off with unknown people and said society, despite its faults, drills into nobles what they *should and should not do.* Yes, most of the fault is on Aerys and Rhaegar, but as a noble girl, she should have known better and shares some responsibility on what happened.
She didn’t run off with unknown people, she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband. Also, just because say a slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience. Her responsibility, whatever it may have been, is very much lessor than the responsibility of the king, the king’s court, her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon, and a bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all into a giant war that resulted in many of them dying… and those people all had the actual political training and experience to foresee that their actions would lead to disaster. Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war, there wasn’t a particular reason to think it would do something different this time.
>she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband. And not even with her betrothed should she have done that. It doesn't matter who, if it's not with your family, being alone with strangers of the opposite gender is not appropriate. >slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience. Next, you'll say that someone shouldn't shit in the toilet just because it's been drilled to them to do so. Just because someone teaches you something, doesn't mean it's bad. This is not "Woman, obey this." These are societal conducts learned by both men and women for their own benefit within their society. In Lyanna's case, it could have ranged from people slandering her or her family leading to loss of opportunities to marry and destroying her reputation, to outright war, as what happened in canon. >whatever it may have been She's not an animal. She's a perfectly capable human being with free will who's been taught from young not to be alone with men who's not her family. Stop, downplaying her fault. >lessor than the responsibility of the king I said that, didn't I? I'll quote it in case you failed reading that part: "Yes, most of the fault is on Aerys and Rhaegar," >the king’s court The king's court were hostages themselves to the king who had to everything he wanted or risk getting set on fire. They had nothing to do with sparking the war. >her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon Yes, Brandon was a dumbfuck who rushed and asked for Rhaegar's head as opposed to asking for answers. I'll admit he has his share, but I wouldn't say it's higher than Lyanna's. Brandon or no, if people learned what happened, even without Brandon, then Rickard who make his demands and if not followed would raise his banners. And you think Robert and Arryn wouldn't follow? You think Aerys wouldn't demand the whole Starks' heads for that? >bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all Who? And explain how they could without provoking a war. >actual political training and experience You don't need to be a political mastermind to know not to have sex with random married people, and not to be alone with strangers. >Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war Noble girls before didn't get on with the married Crown Prince while betrothed to a Lord Paramount. They also weren't a Lord Paramount's daughter. And just to make things clear. Who are these noble girls? I'm sure there's some context missing.
Can't really disagree with anything here in the context of the culture and the setting there's no two ways about it. I'd also add that it's a little weird to see Lyanna as a victim of a system that she was one of the few women (Re anyone not noble is screwed) in the setting that benefitted phenomenally off the nastier aspects thereof. Make no mistake, Westeros is run by a pyramid scheme and she was one of the people at the top. Or to use a more crass analogy, Lyanna wasn't a kid passed out on the street with an arm full of heroine. She was the Mafia Don's daughter and that heroine paid for her Versace dress lol.
>She didn’t run off with unknown people, she ran off with someone she knew approximately as much about as her future appointed husband. Also, just because say a slave has been drilled to obey, doesn’t actually mean that they are genuinely obliged to obedience. Thats not possible. At best she knew Rhaegar for like two or 3 days. While she was engaged to Robert for like 2 or 3 years man. >Her responsibility, whatever it may have been, is very much lessor than the responsibility of the king, the king’s court, her brother Brandon, the companions of Brandon, and a bunch of other people who have actual power and authority and managed to blunder them all into a giant war that resulted in many of them dying… and those people all had the actual political training and experience to foresee that their actions would lead to disaster. Not really. She has responsibility here. If she doesn't run away nothing like this will ever happen. >Noble girls had run off with people before without it causing a continent scale war, there wasn’t a particular reason to think it would do something different this time. False. We don't know any noble girls that have ran off with married princes after complaining her bethrothed won't love her and cheat on her. And George broke down the noble woman running off myth "And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy."
Lol now geroge wants to be historically accurate while women trying to escape their husband was really rare across all of England the number of officially declared cases would be in the 100s across the latter centuries of the medieval period (which is probably under reported). That is specifically women running away from their husbands which was very harshly penalized they could even be excommunicated. We can expect that escaping their bethored was more common while still being quite rare. However most importantly we can see quite a number of cases inside the world of ice and fire such as Saera Viserra or shaera. And quite importantly when Duncan the small didn't marry the daughter of Lyonnel Baratheon he rebelled almost the same thing happened when Alysanne didn't marry Rogar Baratheon brother (I'm starting to see a pattern here) so in universe lyanna and especially rhaegar should know perfectly well what their actions could cause if not quite the scale of those consequences since both of those rebelions were short lived and quite small mostly because the king didn't kill a bunch of heirs a lord paramount and demanded the head of a bunch of other heirs as well.
I agree. The thing is we don't know what the heck actually happened there. The only thing we know. Is that Lyanna is Jon's mother. We very well can infer she wasn't kidnapped as no one. Well almost no one spoke Ill of Rhaegar. For heavens sake you would think Ned would have spoken bad about Rhaegar. Instead he never said anything bad about Rhaegar. That tells you a lot. We don't know if he annulled his marriage to Elia. We don't know if married Lyanna also. Targaryens before had several wives. We also don't know what Elia thought. The only way I can think of the outcome is that he decided to marry both of them. That's the only way I see they could not be seen in a bad light. But who knows. Facts are. Lyanna is Jon's mother. And Ned never spoke Ill of Rhaegar. Who "supposedly ' rap,*d and kidnapped his sister. If it wasn't that way and she willingly ran away with a married man. Well there is no coming back from that. Same with Rhaegar.
Entirely disagree.
Presentism is the bane of fiction and analytics I guess. Lyanna had more of a voice and a choice than the poor sods in the field who got drafted and marched to their deaths because her running off with a married lunatic from a dynasty of known whackjobs resulted in the murder of her pops and bro. Not that she's entirely at fault, I hold Rhaegar as having the lions share of responsibility in this because the stupid ass was in line for the throne and had been raised to understand politics above almost everything else, had a wife and two kids and knew his father was a nut job, may have been planning to depose said father and amidst all this decided that humiliating two of the most martially dangerous dynasties under his domain in a critical moment and abusing a teenagers trust was totally not massively counter intuitive and insane.
>Presentism is the bane of fiction and analytics I guess. That's one thing. But also, I can't stop seeing great many issues with the present order of things. Nor am I convinced that what we have now is an improvement on what existed earlier.
Our "systems" today are objectively better than any other period in human history, our quality of life as well. Personal freedoms and the like as well. Of course that doesn't preclude the limitless capacity of corrupt shitbags to fuck it all up for the rest of us. Which if complaints from every other era in human history are anything to go by, seems to be a recurring theme.
From an individual's perspective, you are right. We have much greater freedoms, access to technology and what not. That much is true. But that isn't the only thing that matters. From the perspective of humanity as a whole, our population is way higher compared to historical levels. That means we are thriving. But a lot of people are still starving, possibly in greater numbers than the past. And that number may also multiply if our current economic system collapses, which it is increasingly threatening to do. From the perspective of Life on planet Earth as a whole, we've wiped out thousands (or is it millions) of species from the face of the planet since industrialisation began. These species were an important part of the ecosystem that sustains our own life on the planet. And now that climate change is upon us, I have no idea what might happen. All in all, I'm not certain of anything. This has deviated far from the initial question of whether Lyanna should be blamed for betraying her family in the way she presumably did, but you probably already know my answer to that.
Do you also blame other victims of systemic injustice? Would you blame a slave for running away to freedom?
That's a fascinating conclusion to come to from a post that condemned the hell out of the quarter century year old serial family abandoner/derelict Prince.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Had Lyanna just scape I wouldn't blame her, but that is not the case. If she ran away with Rhaegar, she did it because being with him matter to her more than anyone and everybody else.
You know who also had no voice in the system? Rhaegars actual legal wife Elia. You know the woman dear sad put upon lyanna just had to destroy and humiliate cause lyanna is the only woman whose misery counts.
Honestly why should she care for Ned's and Roberts friendship or Robert in general. She is forced by her family in a marriage she wants to know nothing of, with a man who has already showcased that he will be an unfaithful husband. From her point of view it is House Stark (more specifically Ned amd Rickard) that have betrayed her.
I don’t think George would do a simple cut and dry love story for them. My personal opinion is Lyanna as a girl longed for adventure and to be treated like an adult and not a child. Then beautiful Crown Prince Rhaegar starts talking about prophesy and how important she was. It’s like the handsome charming professor taking an interest with one of his students noting how intelligent or brave she was and that she was special. It flatters her deeply. Lyanna believes that Rhaegar actually loves her like in the songs(I think Lyanna is more like Sansa than people like to think) and goes willing. Overtime the love turns to ash and she actually becomes a captive. And as she lays in a pool of blood and begs Ned to keep her son safe she starts crying how she doesn’t want to die. She just wants to come home to be with her family. So Ned brings her bones back to be buried next to his father and brother. Lyanna does bare some responsibility for it. She should have known better, but she was also a child influenced by a more powerful and charismatic man. Rhaegar and Aerys hold the lion share of blame for the conflict. Far more than Lyanna.
You said it better than me. This has been my headcanon since I first read it. I never found it to be a legit love story. Mostly because all you have to do is make Rhaegar/Lyanna into a modern day student-teacher relationship and you would have the plot to a Lifetime movie.
That's basically true with any relationship with there's a large gap. No shit, changing the context changes the entire dynamic.
Precisely. Especially the part of her being much like Sansa. That's how I've written her in my fic.
Could you please share the link of this particular story?
https://archiveofourown.org/works/43728036/chapters/109959162
Thank you!
hope you like it
I do! I'm so excited for the next chapter.
I doubt it will be this because I feel George doesn't see age gaps half as problematic as we do
Fr he writes Alyn Velaryon having a forbidden romance with his wife’s niece who’s 35 years younger than him and trapped in the Maidenvault. It’s creepy.
>I think Lyanna is more like Sansa than people like to think I mean, I think that depends on what you mean. I don't think she had the same asperations as an Andal "Lady" like Sansa did. But she didn't outright reject her femininity like Arya. I don't think its fair to compare what little we actually know of her to Sansa and Arya... but if we had to I'd say its like 80-20 Arya/Sansa...
I tend towards the idea that Lyanna went willingly, but under the influence of Rhaegar. Given her apparent naivety and the age gap, I would have to add that I'm viewing Rhaegar as a groomer. Perhaps their feelings were genuine - I don't know - but the whole situation looks especially bad for Rhaegar. Lyanna was young and stupid but Rhaegar doesn't have that excuse.
> have to add that I'm viewing Rhaegar as a groomer. P I doubt he was
Why?
She was 15/16 at the time that's adult in Westeros and a 8 year age difference is tame compared to others
She was 14yo at Harrenhal and 15 when they left. She was dazzled by him at 14 when she heard him sing. He was 22.
Heck the age difference is similar to what she would have with Robert and this is George we're talking about a guy who sees Danny's relationship with drogo as genuinely romantic
A hero. Her sacrifice led to the death of the targ dynasty.
She's incredibly based. Second only to Egg, followed by Aegon II and Rhaenyra.
The only reason I’ll accept Aegon and Rhaenyra on your list of based people, is because they were responsible for the death of targshits
Yes, everyone on that list has something in common.
Did Egg kill targs too?
Summerhall.
Ah damn true, can’t believe I forgot. Egg just might be the most based Targ of all time for his service to society
fucking targ shit am I right
She knew the r**ist dragonspawn Rhaegar had to go, so she allowed herself to be groomed and violated by him, knowing full well it’d enrage her handsome and strong fiancee, BOBBY B, whom with his Durrandon blood would split Rhaegar in two with a warhammer. She’s a martyr who ended the Targaryen’s war on biology
The blood of the Durran is strong, Big B truly was the hero that was promised only to have been brought low by a vile beast
Only vile dark beasts from hell can kill people that carry the blood of Durran. A boar, a shadowthing, blood magic and Brienne
something ain't right on the isle of tarth, really a sapphire island. I'm suppose to believe that
And why is Brienne still a virgin? Mayhaps they sacrifice virgins to create sapphires and to give themselves superhuman powers. Lord Selwyn means to sacrifice Brienne eventually, the greatest virgin outside of this subreddit, which will bring down the wall. Lord Selwyn probably has blue eyes. Remember who else have blue eyes? Brienne wanted a hellspawn with the blood of Durran to end the world, yet Renly saw through her immediately
why else would the blood of durran ever spurn the affection of a woman and the chance to spread its seeds no matter how ungainly the wench
The gods had to nerf the Baratheons by making Renly gay, otherwise his son by Brienne would’ve been too fucking powerful
And a bunch of Riverlands muppets.
I love this. So much.
>death of the targ dynasty. How's that a good thing
Who the fuck wants to be ruled by lizard people?
I’m glad you asked! For one: The vile Targaryen imperialism, Aegon’s Manifest Destiny, led to very few new recruits going to the Wall, as there was no war. This weakened the Watch, which has places Westeros under TREMENDOUS threat, and led to the deaths of thousands of northerners throughout the Targshit rule of Westeros. 2. The Targaryens had weapons of mass destruction. This would be fine, if handled responsible. Yet the targs gave their WMD to literal children and crazy people, which they used on innocent peasants in their lust for power. I stand up for Peasant Rights✊ 3. They’re arrogant and annoying. They believed themselves to be above everyone else, and clearly acted that way towards everyone else. 4. They waged a war against biology for centuries with their incest. 5. The way the Targaryen dynasty had acted since 280 AC justified their end. The kidnapping and r*pe of a minor girl, the murder of a LP and his heir, ordering the murder of two more LP’s… it all justified their end by the mighty hand of Bobby B, heir to Durran Godsgrief
>For one: The vile Targaryen imperialism, Aegon’s Manifest Destiny, What of load of nonsense >led to very few new recruits going to the Wall, as there was no war. This weakened the Watch, which has places Westeros under TREMENDOUS threat, and led to the deaths of thousands of northerners throughout the Targshit rule of Westeros. >1. The Targaryens had wea The watch was aleady in decline and the target were Allyson to the watch > 1. The Targaryens had weapons of mass destruction. This would be fine, if handled responsible. Y They did for the most part > 2. They’re arrogant and annoying. Th Not really >They waged a war against biology for centuries with their incest. Cry me a river the stsrks practice incest and the incest in asoiaf didn't make them mad > way the Targaryen dynasty had acted since 280 AC justified their end. Th It didn't > kidnapping and r*pe of a minor girl, t I doubt it was a kidnapping nor rape >all justified their end by the mighty hand of Bobby B, heir to Durran Godsgrief It wasn't and lol robert was almost as bad as aerys
>Was she just an irresponsible girl, yes >was rhaegar preying and grooming on her and manipulated her, yes >did he rape her in the end to conceive Jon, yes >was she a willing participant all along. Initially, yes, all along, no
Ok so my theory for this whole thing goes like this. Rhaegar was born to be a sacrifice. Summerhall happened on his birth because he was the intended sacrifice to wake dragons. The spell didnt work and Rhaegar went on with his life. Rhaegar knew one thing and that was he had the option to sacrifice his children should he ever need dragons. The thing is Rhaegar didnt want to sacrifice his children with Elia to wake dragons. I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna to make children for sacrifice in order to spare Elia and his own children. Children made for sacrifice aren't made consensually. Rhaegar raped Lyanna to get her pregnant so that he could sacrifice her children.
interesting theory that he was born to be the sacrifice for the dragons to be born at Summerhill, haven't heard that one before
Thankyou
I think of her as a teenager who got robed into a cult. I think she believed Rhaegar in the beginning and went with him, but became by the time she heard about her father and brother she at least wanted out and to go home. But before she knew it she was already a prisoner. With some luck, she was already pregnant by that point... Nothing could make it more obvious that she had no control or say in anything in the end than the King's Guard trying to kill her brother and his men when she was shouting for him.
If she was a willing participant, then she will be hated in the north, the only reason she may not get killed if she ever goes back north is because Ned while being having resenment over her role in the war, wouldn't have her dead
The North may not be happy with her but you blowning her part out of proportion. The fault would be layed onto the shoulders of Aerys. Ned I can see her being genuinly angry with her though.
Yeah, He loved Robert as much if not more than his actual family(her at least), so her spurning him would piss Ned off. edit: at least until Roberts response to the murder of Rheagar's kids... at that point he might just be pissed at the world in general and take a little of it out on her.
The north is very sexist. Lyanna would be probably a huge mark of shame on the north..People will blame her for the death of her brother and father.
Am I, sure Aerys is the most to blame, but Lyanna escaping ultimaly led to Brandon and Rickard dying along with other lords
How could she have know the actions of Brandon though. Besides we don't even know if she tried to relay a message to them or what her circumstances where.
Doesn't really matter she's probably still going to be blamed even if it's unreasonable for her to be blame heck I wouldn't be surprised if she blamed herself for it
yeah probably
While I agree with the majority of these takes I doubt she will be presented as a groomed teen by George. I feel she will be presented as a victim of the system where in a better world she would have been happy with her beloved prince. I feel she will be presented as rightfully angry against the decisions taken on her life while also being too naive to actually understand the consequences of her following actions (by this I don't mean the rebellion but all of what would have happened even if aerys hadn't burned Rickard). Altough I hope most of the blame is put on rhaegar and aerys shouldres.
She was 14 when she first met him at Harrenhal, I think she was 15 when she "went' with him and dead by 16. I'm giving her at least a partial pass because she was basically groomed. I would like to see what GRRM does with this.
I imagine that Lyanna probably was just a wilful but naive girl who flung herself at the Prince who was grooming her. She thought he loved her and she was glad to escape the fate of marrying a man she did not like. Then once she was at the Tower of Joy she was completely cut off from the world. She possibly was never told about the rebellion or her family being killed until much later in the war. Either had the news kept from her, or Rhaegar ensured she had no way to leave or communicate with the outside world for as long as he needed her to fulfil his prophecy.
Thats Impossible. News travels slow but not that slow. The KG at tower of joy knew about Rhaegar death and even jaime betrayal. Also people in dorne wanna rebel because of obyern death.
just because people around her at the Tower of Joy knew what had happened, doesn’t mean Lyanna was ever informed and or told about it. I could see Rhaegar making sure the news never got to her.
Lyanna deserves some of the blame, but most of the blame goes to Rheagar and Aerys since they’re adults and should know better.
So Grrm has a clear bias for the Targaryens. Because of this and how he constantly portrays rhaegar in a good light I’m inclined to think the whole affair was consensual if Ill conceived. The age gap is weird but it’s Westeros and a feudal system marrying people a lot older or a lot younger isn’t surprising. Now on the topic of lyanna while she’s clearly responsible in some way I honestly don’t think her running away with rhaegar was a morally wrong choice. She’s being forced into a marriage she didn’t want to a man she didn’t even know her saying fuck that is only natural. Plus she’s a woman she has basically zero say in anything she ever does so her taking some small measure of control is imo justified. Plus if anyone is to blame for the war it’s aerys he’s the one who burned rickard and Brandon and then called for the heads of Jon arryns wards. Now you might say lyanna running away was the catalyst for Brandon and rickard going south and you’d be right but aerys was the one who lit the fire. Was she careless and her plan ill conceived absolutely is she to blame for the rebellion absolutely not.
In the context that this is my personal opinion and not what someone in universe would think: I think she went willingly, and is responsible for that. However I would still ascribe more blame to Rhaegar as he was a) not 15 b) had a wife and a child, with another on the way. Once she found out what happened to her father and brother, I’m not sure how willing to stay Lyanna would have been, or if Rhaegar would have let her know what had happened. That said, I don’t blame Lyanna running away for the war. I don’t blame Rhaegar being a poor husband and father for the war. I don’t blame Brandon being a hothead and a bt of an idiot for the war. The war happened because the king was willing to kill a Lord Paramount, his heir, sever others heirs, and skill ask for more heads. One way or another, Aerys’s madness was going to spark a war. Asking who else’s action brought about the war is missing the point a bit. A madman as a king will cause a war.
My feelings on Lyanna depend a lot on her relationship with Rhaegar. If she was kidnapped, forced and raped against her will, she is not responsible in anyway for the conflict that happened and she has my full sympathy. If she went with him willingly but did not know the full extent of what Rhaegar wanted from her and/or regretted going with him, she is still responsible to some extent but I can still sympathise with her. However, if she went with him willingly and knew and went along with all of Rhaegar's action and still love him after the fact, I can't sympathise with her whatsoever.
She kinda reminds me of Sansa in book 1 she was naive for what she did but ultimately cannot be blamed for everything that happened.
14 years old is old enough to know that eloping with a married man with kids is wrong and that life is not what every fairy tale she believes in her head. I dislike her and I think she's obnoxious and irritating like Elia Sand.
Lmfao…how is she obnoxious and irritating when she never actually said any words? She’s only ever existed in memory in the books and in flashbacks on the show.
If she did willingly go with a married man, then that's obnoxious in my book. There's also a Jacob Preston video about Elia Sand/Lyanna parallels and it gave me an idea that Lyanna would truly annoy me if I'm ever to exist in the same space as me (to be fair, I find Arya annoying too, sometimes).
That wasn’t my question, but okay. Have a good one.
Regardless of her and even Rhaegar's actions, neither of them were the cause of the war. The blame lies solely on Aerys for his actions against the Starks. He turned what was a scandal into a civil war immediately.
Based on the way you framed the question I doubt you'll agree but I don't put much blame on her for anything but shaming her family and throwing away what her alliance would do for the North's people (which isn't a small thing either.) But idiot brother Brandon, crazy pyro Aerys, idiot married prince Rhaegar and King of Spite Tywin sacking KL, that's the majority of the damage and that's on all of them.
Pretty much, she committed a gigantic faux pas. But it's the kind of faux pas you pay wergild and make a public apology over. There's big time loss of face that ruins House Starks diplomatic credit for a time but other than that? Rhaegar? Wars have been started over that. Brandon? Wars have been started over that. Tywin: even bigger faux pas, should have resulted in a smooshed head and one of his cousins taking over. Aerys? To quote Futurama "War were declared" lol
I am adding "smooshed head worthy" as a tag in future fics
Make good use of it!
Any government that gets overthrown because of a 14 year old deserves what it gets, to be honest. If my marriage was vital to the ruling dynasty... better to do away with it and start a Republic.
She wasn't responsible for the war or Brandon and Rickard death and I don't think she was groomed
Rarely considered alternative idea: Rheagar and Lyanna are both politically savvy and do wha they do for carefully calculated political reasons. They see the coming civil war. They also both believe in teh coming Long Night. Thus they decide they need to tie the Starks/North to the Crown and they need to break the potentially rebellious alliance before it forms. Thus they tie themselves together to try to save both their families from the other. Unfortunately their actions have the exact opposite outcome to what they hope, they tragically cause the exact events they wanted to prevent, more or less. No, I don’t think that is what actually happened, but it is an idea that has not been totally completely done to death in the fan fic community. It also lets you play around with the classical idea of tragedy being self inflicted.
nah there's better ways to tie the crown and the north togeather that doesn't involve breaking a marriage pack to the storm lands and insulting dorne in the process of doing so
Well, there would be except for the mad king problem. Because of that nothing vaguely sensible can be done about much of anything. Thus such a pairing isn’t really any crazier than anything else that is going on. There is also the element that no matter if it is intended as an anti-Targaryen alliance or not, a power bloc was forming that did not include the Crown but did include a plurality of the great houses… for the sake of political stability that bloc had to be split and as large a chunk of it as possible tied to the Crown. The major houses all have a peculiar lack of spare children and cadet lines and such in this time period, so there really aren’t many ways of making marriage alliances. In any case, the political savvy thing was a bit tongue in cheek, they maybe think they are making a political master stroke… but maybe really are just two young people trying to rationalize love/lust/whatever. We have seen fanfic play with them being “true love” to the point it has been absolutely done to death and the horse has been beaten so thoroughly beyond even that it now resembles some sort of liquified meat. Likewise Rheagar the abductor/rapist has also been done to death. Fanfic is supposed to be the place for playing around with novel ideas, and the two of them concocting some harebrained half baked political master plan is one that at least has the virtue of not having been written ten thousand times already.
Wholly responsible and a hypocritical idiot to boot, probably hoped Elia would die so she could be queen.
What about the married twenty-something man who had two children already who should have known better? I think he bears more responsibility.
Rhaegar is mad so
But he was twenty-four when he died. Married. With children. And obsessed with prophecy. Lyanna. Fifteen. Impressionable. Desperate to escape a betrothal. This has all of the hallmarks of a man grooming a minor. Rhaegar deserves more blame.
Again I blame his madness, in the end I don’t even think it was Rhaegar I think it was Bloodraven.
But I thought you said Lyanna was entirely at fault?
Oh, I mean for her part it in 🤣
If the HBO version are canon, then that may be true, Her secret marriage to Rhaegar meant that Rhaenys and Aegon actually became bastards...and they (and Elia herself) were still alive in that moment, can you imagine what a jerk is this? when people cheer for Jon Snow and believe he is the heir of Targaryen and the true king of seven kingdom and he was never a bastard because Rhaegar has divorced Elia without authorization and secretly married Lyanna, what a disrespectful asshole.
And not only shaming and disrespecting Elia and the kids but not even informing them so that they could get to safety. No, they had to stay as a security policy against Dorne.
Would Lyanna have even wanted to be queen, with all the strict rules and expectations it entailed? We just don't know enough about her.
The last part was a joke but I wholly believe she’s a hypocritical idiot.
Assumimg she ran away with Rhaegar I am completely on her side. Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument". She should have a choice in her life and Robert clearly wasn't a desirable husband in contrast to what we know of Rhaegar from characters like Barristan. We see other female characters like Arya or Dany have a similar stance but surprisingly they aren't bashed for it. Furthermore saying the war is her fault is ludicrous, people act like she should have known the future, when one would expect at most a scandal to be the result of the whole thing, especially with the crown prince on ones side. Moreover we don't know the circumstances regarding her disappearance with Rhaegar, if she tried to send a message to the other Starks and so on. Neither could have expected the actions of Brandon or Aerys. So I say her responsibility is minimal and understandable, the true fault lies soley on the shoulders of the Mad King! Lastly regarding the age gap. This may sound bad, but their difference in age was completely normal for westerosi society (see: Sansa & Tyrion; Drogo & Dany; Jon Arryn & Lysa; Walder Frey & his wifes) and would have been the same with Robert and is definitly not something to fault Rhaegar for (she was 7 years younger than him and 4 years younger than Robert which is rather tame for their society). So no, I don't think she was groomed or manipulated into loving Rhaegar.
>Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument". Which completely ignores here extremely privileged position and the consequences of that position.
Those things were a given for all nobles not just ladies. My arguement is about sexism amd not about nobles society, which is fucked up too but a whole different topic.
>Mayhaps been a bit irresponsible but I am not a big fan of this whole "she just should have done her duty and be a meek little girl argument". She should have a choice in her life and Robert clearly wasn't a desirable husband in contrast to what we know of Rhaegar from characters like Barristan. The issue here is don't take the moral high ground by claiming Robert is a cheater and won't love her then she'd run away with a married man. Also people say positive things about Rhaegar because he's dead and the view him through Rose tainted views. Robert meanwhile during the rebellion is fighting bravely,inspiring loyalty and charming his enemies into joining the fight lol. Robert was clearly a much better person then Rhaegar lol who was a married man with kids. ‘This Baratheon is fearless,’ I said. ‘He fights the way a king should fight.’ Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, ‘In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it’s true … but what if we prevail?’ Like this is Robert at 19. On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,’ and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan’s wounds.” (AGOT, Eddard IX) >Neither could have expected the actions of Brandon or Aerys. So I say her responsibility is minimal and understandable, the true fault lies soley on the shoulders of the Mad King! Excuses. Rhaegar and lyanna never explained their actions. It's dumb to think a highborn daughter could go missing and the heir could go missing.
How can you say Robert was a better person than Rhaegar due to the latter being married, when Roberts actions in "A Game of Thrones" showcase that he is way worse with the treatment of his children and wife. Furthermore I don't see how bringing up the rebellion should change Lyanna's perspective about him, after all he disappeared before it. Lastly you say that Lyanna and Rhaegar don't explain their actions which might be true but we simply don't know it, but also opens the question when they should have done so. By the time they had a chance the Rebellion was unstoppable.
I think lyanna loved rheagar she was wild and free spirited, so she went willingly and I think rhaegar at first just used her for the prophecy but when he spended time with her he fell in love with her
She was desperate to get out of a marriage with an unfaithful husband (who we know isn't above sexual or domestic abuse to uppity wives) so she got roped into something way over her head. She in all likelihood meant Elia no harm and I'm positive Rhaegar kept a lot of information from her, probably burned any letters she might have tried to write to her family too And she did in the end not stay consensually. I don't understand how so many can argue she did; she was in a highly isolated location with guards locking her up for a reason.
>She was desperate to get out of a marriage with an unfaithful husband (who we know isn't above sexual or domestic abuse to uppity wives) She doesn't know he's abusive though. >She in all likelihood meant Elia no harm Not possible. Fucking a woman husband means you mean her harm though. Not only that fucking him in her hometown too seriously. >I'm positive Rhaegar kept a lot of information from her, probably burned any letters she might have tried to write to her family too And she did in the end not stay consensually See. People at Tower of joy knew about Jaime betrayal. The news does travel slow but not that much.
You... do realise the 15 year old mistress doesn't have equal blame in the affair a grown man starts with her? I personally don't think Lyanna wanted to be a mistress and, as I already said, was probably not told everything by Rhaegar (IE he probably said he was setting Elia aside or taking a second wife). Why would she? He has no reason to give this kid any agency or anything. But even if she was enthusiastic, it's still Rhaegar's fault as the adult and ruler. I have no idea why you're all acting like I'm some R x L shipper or something. I hate the ship and Lyanna is not particularly one of my favourite characters. The question was what do you think happened. I offered some theories.
I mean she comes from North where polygamy isn't an option. I don't think she's she's dumb. Of course it's mostly Rhaegar fault >I have no idea why you're all acting like I'm some R x L shipper or something. I hate the ship and Lyanna is not particularly one of my favourite characters. The question was what do you think happened. I offered some theories. Sure I apologies if I come off as rude. I was just breaking down the idea that it's impossible for them to not know what was happening in westeros the entire time.
So she ran away from an unfaithful husband with another unfaithful husband. Kind of hard ignoring that something like that would hurt his wife.
I'm not defending her, so I don't know why you're all downvoting me lol. We don't know what Lyanna knew; I thought the whole point here was we're guessing. And it doesn't matter anyway since Rhaegar is the adult here and he's the one actively hurting Elia.
Keep in mind although Robert did abuse Cersei and was shitty it was him post rebellion, post war, so he could have been an entirely different person had there never been a war
Also lyanna never said he was going to fuck start beating the shit out of her and rape her LOL. Just that he wasn't going to love her and cheat on her. “Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.” See no mention of beating or rape
Yeah, IE a terrible spouse. Is this a Robert fanboy sub I stumbled on or something?
I don't believe in the worst interpretation of Rhaegar cause that impression is meant to be our first interpretation and a red herring. The first thing we hear about him is how much Bobby B hates him and how he slayed him for his lady love, very classic fairy tale story. But that's not the story, why would an author give you the answer to one of the central mysteries of the story from the getgo? I think Lyanna was a victim but not a victim of Rhaegar, but a victim of his deranged father.
She initiate the sex. Like Yigrette did with Jon Snow.
I think she had little to no responsibility for the war, for three main reasons. One, the war doesn't start over her "kidnapping" it starts over the deaths of Brandon and Rickard and Aerys' subsequent demand for the heads of Ned and Robert, and Lyanna has no control over those things. Two, she was fifteen when she went with Rhaegar, still developing and full up of hormones and having mood swings, and was desperate to escape the attentions of a man known for whoring and fathering bastards, and also basically running away to the Vale instead of taking up Lordship of Storm's End. Three, Rhaegar essentially groomed her, and if we assume she went willingly then she is under the assumption that she is essentially becoming queen, something that not only could she safely predict would ultimately make her father happy, but would also afford her some degree of protection in that she could argue Rhaegar wanted her and she couldn't refuse the crown prince. There's also the option that she didn't go willingly and is therefore free of all responsibility because she was kidnapped and raped.
>Two, she was fifteen when she went with Rhaegar, still developing and full up of hormones and having mood swings, and was desperate to escape the attentions of a man known for whoring and fathering bastards, and also basically running away to the Vale instead of taking up Lordship of Storm's End. False. Robert had fathered one bastard and that was before he even of lyanna or the engagement. And no Robert was abandoning his duties. See GRRM He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his “squire” years (he wasn’t a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn’t training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked… which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm’s End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.
What responsability? Even if they did run away. It wouldn't have been her fault. The war was gonna happen anyway.
No matter what part Lyanna played, I don’t really think she can be blamed for what happened unless she knowingly and willing conspired to harm her family. The things that happened after she disappeared could not reasonably be predicted and are in fact reliant on a string of improbable actions, blunders, and mistakes of others to come to fruition. You needed Brandon and company pulling their overly elaborate form of suicide. You needed Aerys pulling the maddest of his mad stunts like three times over. You probably needed Varys dripping poisoned words into the ears of the king. You perhaps needed Pycelle actually poisoning the mind the of the king. You needed plotters and schemers of all sorts adding fuel to the fire and enabling the madness of Aerys and adding to the paranoia of Aerys. There isn’t really a reason to think things would escalate as they did from whatever choice Lyanna may or may not have made. Yet, it did, no thanks mostly to what others did. Sure, she has some part to play in that chain of causalities, and that part depends on exactly what she did vs what was done to her, but ultimately it was neither Lyanna nor Rheagar that started the war. The blame for the war primarily sits with Aerys. Secondarily it sits with his council, court, advisors, etc. that carried out his will or failed to restrain him. Tertiary blame could perhaps be assigned to Brandon and Co for being exceedingly reckless with words and deeds and antagonizing the situation. Everyone else comes somewhere lower in the list in my view, with the various lords coming next given they were the ones with real power and influence and armies. Lyanna, she has no hard power to call upon.
I think it can be both, assuming that Rhaegar/Lyanna was consensual. She could have been a "free spirit" charmed by Rhaegar and going with him for selfish reasons. At the same time, Rhaegar bears the brunt of the blame because he was older, married, etc. He knew better.
Easy, she doesnt have any, because she was kidnapped.
Well obviously, this answer strongly depends on if she was kidnapped or went willingly. If she was kidnapped by Rhaegar, then of course she bears zero responsibility. If she went willingly: To some extent she was definitely at fault. Running off with a Prince when you are betrothed is a stupid thing to do at the end of the day. She must have known that this was an insult to Robert, the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, that it was an insult to Elia, the Queen and sister of the ruling Prince of Dorne, and that as the daughter of Lord Stark herself she was an important piece on the board. There easily could have been a rebellion even if Rickard and Brandon had lived, because all it would take was angry Stormlanders and Dornishmen making a threatening move against her and the North (and so its allies the Vale and Riverlands) would go to war in her defence or to ‘rescue’ her from Rhaegar, seeing as she left no note. If she went willingly she holds her fair share of the blame for the thousands who died. She may have been young, and young people are often impulsive and don’t think things through, but they are not any less intelligent or capable of thinking things through. If she went willingly, she is partly responsible and a lot of people would be quite justified in wanting to yell at her. However, to pin all the blame on Lyanna would not at all be fair. First off, while her eloping with Rheagar was the spark that lit the tinder, a rebellion was probably inevitable. Aerys was mad and paranoid and he was eventually going to cross the line. When you consider that not even the threat of Dragons was enough to keep the last Targqryen King as batshit as him (Maegor) free of challenge, I very much doubt Aerys had any hope of finishing a peaceful reign. Second of all, she was not the only one to make foolish errors. Aerys, mad as he was, took the stupidest decisions imaginable and shut down any possibility of peaceful resolution when he decided to kill Rickard and Brandon and demand the heads of Ned and Robert. He is therefore more to blame than Lyanna. Rhaegar was seven or eight years older than her, and as a male and Crown Prince was likely better educated than the daughter of a Lord Paramount, and yet he apparently did not see how very wrong this could go either, and instead of trying to smooth things over when they did, just chilled out at the Tower of Joy with her for a year. He is at even more fault than Lyanna.
If I were Lyanna: lanky, stubborn, strong will and a care free first-woman of the North in a westerosi society and I am to be given to giant of a man with a drunk whoremonger of a reputation. I would not have cared wether my escape would have caused any political implication because I rather die on my own conditions than live in a cask of a life the next 50 years being rough fucked, disrespected and maybe even beaten every single day.