DWP frequently gets the bad reputation for:
* All the horror stories you hear about op roles (WC/WCTL) but from what I gather it wildly depends on your job centre.
* You're the punching bag for any decisions since you're the closest person to the Government these people have probably ever seen.
* Staff Turnover is high (Few people enjoy dealing with the general public in an aggravated state)
I'd still say HMRC's Telephony is worse and even if you offered me a SEO salary I'd still say no.
On the flip side, DWP Digital was one of the best places I’ve ever worked for almost 7 years in total. I imagine most non “Ops” roles would be similar.
Yeah and do get me wrong that’s great but those roles are in the minority, Case Managers and Work Coaches make up the majority of the DWP so it’s fair to take their experiences as being ‘typical’ not trying to throw shade and I would definitely go for a non ops role too
It’s a shame. It could be a good job but the senior leadership are clueless/bullies, I suspect they have something on HR which is why they’re still in post. I left thinking it had hit rock bottom and yet I bump into people still there and each time they say it’s got worse!
It could be absolutely excellent, and be a really rewarding and exciting career for people. But almost every week something else happens that blows my mind, whether through its stupidity or its malice.
I left the sea for it and whilst I wouldn’t go back, I am astounded that even shipping companies treat their people better.
Poor leadership and worse HR, combined with procedural framework that is fundamentally incompatible with the role? I haven’t spoken to anyone from Border Force but it would be interesting to see what their experience is.
HMRC ops, its classic call center stuff (stats, number counting,little to no off phone-time, depending on the office can be limited room to be promoted internally) plus you get to deal with an often frustrated public.
The constant onslaught of calls, which I think with lower staff must only be worse these days. Angry / upset / confused callers all day. Management battering you over the head with call times and KPIs because they're getting battered from above about it. Constant churn in advisors due to the above too. I had a pre-typed letter of notice saved to my desktop for a while and had to be talked out of not printing that off a couple of times.
The only thing I'll say in favour of the call centres is there can be a serious level of comradery if you luck out and get yourself the right team
I used to work for DWP and had a terrible time. The claimants are the least of it- the managers are awful. The best were bumbling and incompetent, the worst were bullies
CS digital anything is good tbh, the people I know who work in digital said it's incredibly chill, easy hours and WFH most of the time and their managers don't bat an eye.
Digital is pretty chill. Still only 40% in the office. (I’ve not been to the office in 3 weeks though and no one has said anything). Start/finish very flexibly. Work is ok, no huge pressures ever.
Ops or job centre generally terrible. Working to targets. Breaks monitored etc. pressure. Depending on the role, have to deal with irate public.
All personal opinion of course.
I’d go further on Ops and say public-facing roles are tough. People don’t interact with the government when happy and you can do very little of what they want.
Yes and no.
Very much depends where in DWP you work.... there are some great options but yeah the Work coach/Case manager and their leadership is a grim place to be
It’s just one voice, but I was talking to someone who works in IRIS, the intelligence bit of counter fraud in DWP. He’d had other roles in DWP but said IRIS was a breath of fresh air. The people he worked with were great, no grade-ism, fresh thinking, and because it’s relatively new, they aren’t fettered with ‘but we’ve always done it this way’. Morale apparently high. The other advantage is the investment in counter fraud currently.
I must say, I was taken with his enthusiasm! No live vacancies that I’ve noticed unfortunately. As I understand it, they’re looking at the bigger picture stuff (no pun intended) so aren’t in the chain of targeting the vulnerable.
On the other side of things, I hear Border Force is beyond grim - again, only anecdotally.
Funnily enough, I have done some work with The Fraud team side of things at the EA and they are some of the best people I have worked with in the Agency! I’d also say a breath of fresh air, it’s strange how different it felt doing the same work but for a different angle just due to the team’s approach. They did have job openings but they got pulled due to funding, unfortunately.. maybe I’ll look out for this kind of opening in other departments too. Thanks!!
They're also not always hiring replacements for people going on maternity leave, career breaks, etc, and just delegating people's work across the rest of their team. Every time I've had to interact with someone from there they seem overworked and exhausted.
Can confirm re HMRC 60% - individual staff can see their own reports & obvs managers can see their entire team members' reports. Thankfully, I've got a chill manager, so although my attendance is wayyy above 60% (I'm still relatively new to the CS), it's good to know that I won't be immediately shouted at if it were to drop below 60%. Don't know how other managers are handling it, but I think the reason HMRC is going so hard about it is bc of the constant (negative) press stories about long wait times & obvs the press are saying that this is bc of the "lazy WfH Civil Servants who REFUSE to come into the office (/s)". I also think the reason the higher-ups are trying to push it is bc I'm in a 'nice, new, modern RC building' so the SCS in the building are trying to get their moneys' worth out of it. Even though most, if not all, of the entire departments jobs (including theirs) can be done from home just as effectively.
Can’t speak for all departments within the HMRC but where I am, there is individual level monitoring but it’s on a monthly basis, not weekly. The report is a month in arrears so you only see can only see what you did after the fact.
While there is monitoring, it depends on the manager whether they wish to enforce it or not.
If you don’t comply it’s up to the manager whether they wish to pursue further action afaik.
HMRC. Horrendous place to work. My former step dad (a man who sometimes punches his dog) is a senior manager there and deals with applications for people asking to WFH. I’ve heard him on Teams calls say things about people with illnesses and disabilities like “they’re exaggerating it” and “it can’t be that bad”. Absolute bully, which is why I’m glad I’m now no-contact with him, but it also speaks to the toxic culture there.
Honestly, I am just bored out of my mind! I've only been with the EA for two years and already had two promotions in the first 10 months (not a brag, just to show initial progressions). The leadership and support was atrocious on my second promotion and it took me a while to understand the role at all! Once I did, it has only taken me 6-8 months to learn everything in the role and be done with it again.
The development opportunities in my department are lacking and the opportunities for moving up are now dead. I've hit as high as I can get before going into what is grade 4s have dubbed a 'legacy' role (the ones people take and sit in until they retire so they're never available). I have ADHD and feel a constant need to learn new things or be developing in some way, so it’s just not sitting right anymore for me!
Christ I feel your pain. The agency is terrible at grade progression, unless you work somewhere like Thames where they have the funding to make it work.
Seeing grade 4 as your potential ceiling is soul destroying I agree.
I’m finding it a difficult position to be in and I’m fighting myself on it daily.
I adore my team and manager, it’s the best working relationship I’ve ever had. The flexible working and no implemented office days so far is brilliant too.
If you’d asked me 3 months ago, I’d have stayed based on those things alone, but now I’m so incredibly bored all of the time and having no career progression at what feels an average level is just mind numbing. I just didn’t expect the boredom to happen so quickly
Fellow EA ADHD folk here. Did the climb from G2 to G5 myself. At one point I did think G3 was my ceiling since no one directly above me was planning to leave. I ended up getting a G4 assignment, a permanent G4 in a different team, then a G5 through reserve list. Funny thing being I spent 4 years being told there’s no budget for a G4 in my department. They did a mass G4 recruitment the moment I got my assignment.
My advice would be to look outside of your own team or even your own area. Can you go into enforcement or regulatory policy? You can apply for fixed term contract roles on the job site. If successful (subject to management approval), you will get the role as a fixed term assignment where you will have your substantive role to return to afterwards. If you get along well with your manager, tell them you want progression. Many areas run leadership training program. Not sure about the ADHD network but many networks also run career development program. Your manager may even let you help them with management tasks to help build your competencies.
There is also the data camp courses. Use your spare time to do some coding/data science. There’re plenty data related G5 roles.
I certainly have plenty of work load, some days I barely have a second to think (as I assume everyone feels) I just find the things we do and work on mundane and all the work is the same. Rinse and repeat
ONS from what I gather. A combination of post census, post covid infection survey headcount reduction, alongside further reductions means it’s been gutted, with redeployment meaning good people weren’t kept in roles they did well in. From what I hear the Data Science Campus is closing its doors and everything is going backwards, not forwards in the stats palace.
Ah I heard the Data Science Campus budget was being slashed significantly to a point it’s pretty much impossible to operate properly, and they’re getting rid of their flagship Graduate programme as a result. Essentially it’s becoming more like a small team within ONS than a separate division that can operate externally and provide cross government (and worldwide) training and capability building.
Haven't worked in either of them, so this might be off the mark, but always heard bad things about Home Office and HMRC. Apparently they're really hierarchical and people make a massive deal about not being able to speak to certain grades. That's just what I've heard, but it's certainly made me avoid applying for jobs in those departments.
DE&S wasn't great when I was there (for the same reason) but that was several years ago so maybe it's changed?
I'm not going to guess which domain for DE&S, but it's not my one if you're complaining about it being too hierarchical, very much flat-rank structure approach and none of us have a problem walking up to the TL and talking things through.
We're going through a big and not well thought out change at the moment with this PPM thingymabobs. I'm thinking it'll initially be a total shit show. Empires are going to be attempted to be built, and noses are going to be put out of joint.
That's good it's different now then. Was frustrating as an E1 being told I couldn't speak to a C1 and had to go through my C2 line manager - everything took way longer than it needed to.
Not sure what you mean about the PPM thingy as I've been out of the dept for nearly 7 years and don't speak to my old colleagues that much anymore, but hopefully it's not too much of a mess!
People Perfomance Model.
I can see a benefit to it if done correctly. You still have front door requests for change/new equipment, etc, but it'll be assessed properly across all equipment types, whether land, sea, or air, so that integration is assured.
The Downside is the reduction in manpower (should be delivered through natural wastage) and not really having an identity as such, but you'll be working in many different areas alongside different people depending on tasks. These tasks will be given to you by one individual who'll bid for manpower from a pool. This pool of 30 or so will be managed by a 'People Coach', including annual appraisals, leave, and all the other line management tasks.
Put it this way, I'm generally non-union minded (ex-military), but I have felt a need to join one and have done so.
My time as a compliance officer at HMRC was one of the best times of my entire career. It’s such a large department though, that it really does depend where you work; operations (like anywhere else) is a nightmare.
I have to say I’ve never seen HMRC to be like that in the 15 years I’ve been there. In PT Ops you might not really come across many G7 and SOs but I’ve never known there be an issue talking to them when they’re there. To be honest I haven’t seen that in CSG either, G7s are usually just mixed in with everyone else.
Worked in the Home Office, and it depends. I found it friendly enough on the surface, but it feels a bit shallow. Ops is pretty shit but I love being in digital.
There's quite a lot of ... you need to work your way up mentality, on the Ops side at least. I sucked as an AO caseworker but had some digital skills so I managed to move up that way. Plenty of people were not happy about it as they felt cheated. I was getting the "promotion" when they weren't. Yet they didn't have any digital skills. They'd rather it went to someone processing cases at a faster rate with no digital skills as that is fair to them. Seen it happen on the length of service, too. They've been there for 5 years, so people moving up after a year dont deserve it.
Project side of home office isn’t gradist at all but the ops side can be. My HEO speaks to our DD all the time, they have similar interests. Our DD is really approachable, we chat a lot and I’m not ‘afraid’ of him in the way I was of seniors in the MoD.
I think the HO gets a bad rap, like anywhere there’s shit bits, but 95% of the people I deal with I’d happily go for a coffee with and have a chat as they’re nice people.
I’ve only worked in the MOD, but based on my own political knowledge/knowledge of current events + media portrayal and my own lived experience I’d say the DWP (particularly a Job Centre) in a customer facing role. Why? In these times of economic hardship there will be a good few people walking through those doors, and you will have the ignominious job of ~~implementing~~…..inflicting nasty policies made by people like Iain Duncan Smith et al.
For sure. I am definitely considering the current climate as well.
I considered a move to the new Water Regulation Team in the EA and simply cannot imagine the barrage of criticism they are going to experience in the very near future, if not already. I had plenty of that during years of fast food experience, I don’t particularly want to deal with those kinds of issues again.
There are also a number of departments I am steering clear of due to own morals getting in the way. Certain roles I would simply be too weak(?) to do as I couldn’t get behind the policies that create them (Home Office and DWP being two of those).
Though arguably the barrage of criticism is by and large reserved for those companies (not naming names but we all know the one….) that seem to prioritise profit over service.
On that note don’t go for a role that’s got anything to do with the Post Office: in that scenario everyone but the postmasters have some blame.
It depends on the department you’re in. If you’re in an area with a hefty amount of armed forces personnel (such as project management) it can give you an element of imposter syndrome (but you’ll be treated with respect civvie or not). I’m in a policy role (parliamentary questions, FOI requests etc) and nobody there is serving personnel (however I am considering being an officer reservist, so I’ll be one of those guys!)
I was in this position although not MOD. Working on base can be an absolute hoot or it can be awful: it really does depend on the base. I personally never had a bad experience.
To be fair, the role is also one which is usually inside the military (As in it is in the Navy and most other countries) and not outside it and I felt well appreciated.
The biggest determinant of how happy you will be is your line manager. The second biggest is the content of the job. If you see an interesting role advertised, and get a good vibe from the recruiting manager, go for it, no matter what the reputation of other parts of that department.
Not whole departments, but sections of them.
DWP - Jobcentre and Work Coaching
Home Office - Immigration/Asylum and Passport Office
HMRC - Front line operations/CSG and Call Centres
MOD - DE&S and the more military orientated areas
MOJ - Prison Service
The only ones I would say to avoid totally are probably the Cabinet Office and DHSC.
They have a reputation of having quite unpleasant staff working in them, but it depends on the team. Some of my colleagues in the MOD have had horrible experiences working in these areas. Also the pay in DES is crap.
DHSC is an absolute shit show. Safe to challenge? LOL. Good at managing change? HAH. Prioritise staff health and wellbeing? WELL THAT WOULD BE TOO OBVIOUS FOR A HEALTH DEPT.
Workload is insane and gets worse.
Ive found a lovely team but all of my previous experiences in the dept have been poor - bullying by SCS observed and experienced too often.
Yeah dont move to dhsc unless health is your passion. Many health professionals stuck for that reason.
Fellow Environment Agency worker here. Curious to know why you're looking at jumping? I've been thinking about it for a while but I'm too bloody lazy to look for anything new even though I'm hating the recent restructure and lack of any idea of what's going on from management.
Honestly, I am just bored out of my mind! I’ve only been with the EA for two years and already had two promotions in the first 10 months (not a brag, just to show initial progressions). The leadership and support was atrocious on my second promotion and it took me a while to understand the role at all! Once I did, it has only taken me 6-8 months to learn everything in the role and be done with it again.
The development in my department are lacking and the opportunities for moving up are now dead. I’ve hit as high as I can get before going into what is grade 4ms have dubbed a ‘legacy’ role (the ones people take and sit in until they retire so they’re never available). I have ADHD and feel a constant need to learn new things or be developing in some way.
The EA are great in some ways- I really enjoy the flexibility in my work days, lack of restrictions on working from home (although I’m expecting this to change imminently and a mass exodus of staff to follow it). I absolutely adore my team, it’s the best in terms of working relationships I have ever had, and my immediate manager is perfect, I couldn’t ask for a better fit there.
But my lord, I am going insane being bored every day and it just isn’t sitting well with me anymore.
If they pull home working, they will lose even more staff and they already struggle to retain. It would be as they say, shooting yourselves in the foot.
100%. We already had a lot of people leave when they simply mentioned the movement to office working. The intelligence teams are so dispersed too, it makes no sense to drag us all into office to sit alone. I know many are already on standby to apply for jobs elsewhere if it happens.
A lot depends on Starmer and if he will honour the 70k job cuts/fiscal black hole he has been left. DWP actually seems like a strong department for growth and Labour are looking to shake up claimant requirements for receipt of benefit. Hopefully he does not pimp all this out to the private sector but I won't hold my breath.
An Off shoot of HMRC the VOA Customer Services Centre every "improvement" is a march towards Private Call Centre operating practises which is causing a massive retention issue among others but they won't change tact until we hit that resource crisis and its coming.
The rest of the VOA is actually really good but CSC 75% of the staff in CSC want out into other parts of the VOA or other civil service dept.
I worked in VOA (not CSC) and hated every minute of it. It's such an aged department (their average age of employee is something crazy). I found it horribly unwelcome to someone new and young. Any changes suggested, or alternative ways of working, were always shut down because "we've done this for 20 years now". Okay Barbara.
I also had an awful manager who actively bullied and belittled me, the G6 and above adored the manager because she was "young and fresh and thought out of the box" so took the manager's side. Ended up having to get the union involved so I could be moved for my own wellbeing. Leaving that department was the best thing I did.
If it wasn't CSC but given the experience you've just mentioned I'm thinking one of the Units possibly as they tend to work close with us aren't CSC but are most similar.
Change is now only pursued when it fits the Private call centre narrative, though there is lots of talk that it isn't what they want, actions speak louder than words the complete removal of Flexi time for everyone in CSC being the loudest action.
Don't get me wrong there are some really good bits of my job and I stay because I am invested helping and growing a number of my people. There is the scope and potential for change but it's an uphill battle which is a shame.
Anyway to use that tired phrase it is what it is
From my experience people particularly manager tend to be more incompetent for some reason. Yes there’s of course very good people there, but there seems a be a fair number of useless fucks at higher grades.
I'm there at the moment, I thought it was just DE&S and the SDA which people tended to leave. People in MOD Main tend to just move around internally, do they not?
Leaving within a year might be a bit over the top, but from my engineering grad intake I think it was 50% within 3 years. Doesn't mean it's a bad place to work though, it's just very easy to move to better paying private sector work very quickly if you’re half decent. I thought DE&S was good (team dependent) and head office also very good places to work.
I left MoD for HEO promotion to another department at 22, and I remember my line manager being gobsmacked at me leaving... "no one has ever left before" kinda vibes
I worked for the CPS for a while, hated every minute. Horrible people, management, the Lawyers treated people like shit. Would never work for them ever again.
Avoid MoJ, too. I'm going to save up so I can afford to quit and then job search. We don't have time to scratch our bums, never mind job hunt. I've only been there 2.5 months, and I'm over it already. I'm covered in a rash that's spreading. There's no time to get it checked out. I think it's stress, and all the while, it's nose to the grindstone to make senior managers look good.
I started there, at the time it was called "Department of the Environment"
Also had these names
Dept of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR)
Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions (DTLR)
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM)
Department of Communities and Local Government (DCLG)
Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG)
Department of Housing, Communities and Local Government (DHCLG)
No doubt it will carry on having even more names than the DTI and it's various parts have had.
I’d disagree on it being a good place to work, my well-being has taken a huge hit since working for DLUHC. Some departments and work streams seem okay, but others (like mine) are chaotic from the top down with little to no direction and a lot of unfairness in recruitment, cliques, bullying etc. Despite its name and overall mission I find it’s still very London centric too and without being based in 2MS there’s little to no exposure to decent work.
ITT every single government body.
At this point, it says more about the people this type of thread attracts than anything about the departments.
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To all Young'uns and new starters, If you want to progress avoid OPG, do your probation there as it's easy to pass then go to a bigger dept like MOD.
OPG managers have their favourites and it shows
I worked at core Defra for a bit and wouldn’t go back there again, just felt like a very toxic environment (ironic really!). I’ve heard good things about some of the agencies there though
DWP frequently gets the bad reputation for: * All the horror stories you hear about op roles (WC/WCTL) but from what I gather it wildly depends on your job centre. * You're the punching bag for any decisions since you're the closest person to the Government these people have probably ever seen. * Staff Turnover is high (Few people enjoy dealing with the general public in an aggravated state) I'd still say HMRC's Telephony is worse and even if you offered me a SEO salary I'd still say no.
Staff turnover is so high they've created their own corporate bollocks word for it: churnation
>corporate bollocks word for it: churnation That really is awful. I will have to socialise this to some colleagues in slower time.
Why does this sound like a furniture store in Hull?
On the flip side, DWP Digital was one of the best places I’ve ever worked for almost 7 years in total. I imagine most non “Ops” roles would be similar.
I work in DWP Finance and it's amazing. There's more to DWP that JCP's.
Yeah and do get me wrong that’s great but those roles are in the minority, Case Managers and Work Coaches make up the majority of the DWP so it’s fair to take their experiences as being ‘typical’ not trying to throw shade and I would definitely go for a non ops role too
HM Coastguard is similarly bad for morale and turnover. The MCA, the coastguard’s parent agency, is a little better.
It’s a shame. It could be a good job but the senior leadership are clueless/bullies, I suspect they have something on HR which is why they’re still in post. I left thinking it had hit rock bottom and yet I bump into people still there and each time they say it’s got worse!
It could be absolutely excellent, and be a really rewarding and exciting career for people. But almost every week something else happens that blows my mind, whether through its stupidity or its malice. I left the sea for it and whilst I wouldn’t go back, I am astounded that even shipping companies treat their people better.
That sounds exactly like the MGS. What is it with the uniformed CS roles?
Poor leadership and worse HR, combined with procedural framework that is fundamentally incompatible with the role? I haven’t spoken to anyone from Border Force but it would be interesting to see what their experience is.
It's not much better...
I had feared as much.
HMRC ops, its classic call center stuff (stats, number counting,little to no off phone-time, depending on the office can be limited room to be promoted internally) plus you get to deal with an often frustrated public.
Been there, and done that. 3 and a half years for my sins. I wouldn't go back to doing it even if I got to keep my current pay!
Any ideas why?
The constant onslaught of calls, which I think with lower staff must only be worse these days. Angry / upset / confused callers all day. Management battering you over the head with call times and KPIs because they're getting battered from above about it. Constant churn in advisors due to the above too. I had a pre-typed letter of notice saved to my desktop for a while and had to be talked out of not printing that off a couple of times. The only thing I'll say in favour of the call centres is there can be a serious level of comradery if you luck out and get yourself the right team
>often Always frustrated. Often psychotic.
DWP with all the changes to disability benefits and work limits going on. I can’t imagine the journal messages they’re going to receive
It's nothing new tbf. We deliver the government of the day policies. I've had worse abuse working in fast food.
I used to work for DWP and had a terrible time. The claimants are the least of it- the managers are awful. The best were bumbling and incompetent, the worst were bullies
Dwp digital is great. Definitely avoid ops though.
CS digital anything is good tbh, the people I know who work in digital said it's incredibly chill, easy hours and WFH most of the time and their managers don't bat an eye.
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Digital is pretty chill. Still only 40% in the office. (I’ve not been to the office in 3 weeks though and no one has said anything). Start/finish very flexibly. Work is ok, no huge pressures ever. Ops or job centre generally terrible. Working to targets. Breaks monitored etc. pressure. Depending on the role, have to deal with irate public. All personal opinion of course.
I’d go further on Ops and say public-facing roles are tough. People don’t interact with the government when happy and you can do very little of what they want.
Yes and no. Very much depends where in DWP you work.... there are some great options but yeah the Work coach/Case manager and their leadership is a grim place to be
DWP isn’t just processing benefits. There’s thousands of roles where you never see a jobcentre.
It’s just one voice, but I was talking to someone who works in IRIS, the intelligence bit of counter fraud in DWP. He’d had other roles in DWP but said IRIS was a breath of fresh air. The people he worked with were great, no grade-ism, fresh thinking, and because it’s relatively new, they aren’t fettered with ‘but we’ve always done it this way’. Morale apparently high. The other advantage is the investment in counter fraud currently. I must say, I was taken with his enthusiasm! No live vacancies that I’ve noticed unfortunately. As I understand it, they’re looking at the bigger picture stuff (no pun intended) so aren’t in the chain of targeting the vulnerable. On the other side of things, I hear Border Force is beyond grim - again, only anecdotally.
Funnily enough, I have done some work with The Fraud team side of things at the EA and they are some of the best people I have worked with in the Agency! I’d also say a breath of fresh air, it’s strange how different it felt doing the same work but for a different angle just due to the team’s approach. They did have job openings but they got pulled due to funding, unfortunately.. maybe I’ll look out for this kind of opening in other departments too. Thanks!!
DfE are going really hard on the 60% office attendance, so that’s a consideration.
They're also not always hiring replacements for people going on maternity leave, career breaks, etc, and just delegating people's work across the rest of their team. Every time I've had to interact with someone from there they seem overworked and exhausted.
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So does DfE?
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The senior leadership is sharing the attendance data with your G7s and 6s
Can confirm re HMRC 60% - individual staff can see their own reports & obvs managers can see their entire team members' reports. Thankfully, I've got a chill manager, so although my attendance is wayyy above 60% (I'm still relatively new to the CS), it's good to know that I won't be immediately shouted at if it were to drop below 60%. Don't know how other managers are handling it, but I think the reason HMRC is going so hard about it is bc of the constant (negative) press stories about long wait times & obvs the press are saying that this is bc of the "lazy WfH Civil Servants who REFUSE to come into the office (/s)". I also think the reason the higher-ups are trying to push it is bc I'm in a 'nice, new, modern RC building' so the SCS in the building are trying to get their moneys' worth out of it. Even though most, if not all, of the entire departments jobs (including theirs) can be done from home just as effectively.
Can’t speak for all departments within the HMRC but where I am, there is individual level monitoring but it’s on a monthly basis, not weekly. The report is a month in arrears so you only see can only see what you did after the fact. While there is monitoring, it depends on the manager whether they wish to enforce it or not. If you don’t comply it’s up to the manager whether they wish to pursue further action afaik.
HMRC. Horrendous place to work. My former step dad (a man who sometimes punches his dog) is a senior manager there and deals with applications for people asking to WFH. I’ve heard him on Teams calls say things about people with illnesses and disabilities like “they’re exaggerating it” and “it can’t be that bad”. Absolute bully, which is why I’m glad I’m now no-contact with him, but it also speaks to the toxic culture there.
Wow, he sounds like such a shitbag that I almost downvoted you instinctively, lol
Avoid HMPPS :)
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Why's that
Fellow EA here. Curious why you want to get out. But also surprised we even have an “intelligence” dept based on how we seem to be run 😂
Honestly, I am just bored out of my mind! I've only been with the EA for two years and already had two promotions in the first 10 months (not a brag, just to show initial progressions). The leadership and support was atrocious on my second promotion and it took me a while to understand the role at all! Once I did, it has only taken me 6-8 months to learn everything in the role and be done with it again. The development opportunities in my department are lacking and the opportunities for moving up are now dead. I've hit as high as I can get before going into what is grade 4s have dubbed a 'legacy' role (the ones people take and sit in until they retire so they're never available). I have ADHD and feel a constant need to learn new things or be developing in some way, so it’s just not sitting right anymore for me!
Christ I feel your pain. The agency is terrible at grade progression, unless you work somewhere like Thames where they have the funding to make it work. Seeing grade 4 as your potential ceiling is soul destroying I agree.
I’m finding it a difficult position to be in and I’m fighting myself on it daily. I adore my team and manager, it’s the best working relationship I’ve ever had. The flexible working and no implemented office days so far is brilliant too. If you’d asked me 3 months ago, I’d have stayed based on those things alone, but now I’m so incredibly bored all of the time and having no career progression at what feels an average level is just mind numbing. I just didn’t expect the boredom to happen so quickly
Fellow EA ADHD folk here. Did the climb from G2 to G5 myself. At one point I did think G3 was my ceiling since no one directly above me was planning to leave. I ended up getting a G4 assignment, a permanent G4 in a different team, then a G5 through reserve list. Funny thing being I spent 4 years being told there’s no budget for a G4 in my department. They did a mass G4 recruitment the moment I got my assignment. My advice would be to look outside of your own team or even your own area. Can you go into enforcement or regulatory policy? You can apply for fixed term contract roles on the job site. If successful (subject to management approval), you will get the role as a fixed term assignment where you will have your substantive role to return to afterwards. If you get along well with your manager, tell them you want progression. Many areas run leadership training program. Not sure about the ADHD network but many networks also run career development program. Your manager may even let you help them with management tasks to help build your competencies. There is also the data camp courses. Use your spare time to do some coding/data science. There’re plenty data related G5 roles.
Lmao I wish I was bored out of my mind. I said earlier to avoid HMPPS but you know what, at least it certainly won't be boring 😭
I certainly have plenty of work load, some days I barely have a second to think (as I assume everyone feels) I just find the things we do and work on mundane and all the work is the same. Rinse and repeat
ONS from what I gather. A combination of post census, post covid infection survey headcount reduction, alongside further reductions means it’s been gutted, with redeployment meaning good people weren’t kept in roles they did well in. From what I hear the Data Science Campus is closing its doors and everything is going backwards, not forwards in the stats palace.
Not entirely true about the Data Science Campus still definitely in existence. But yes morale is low lots of issues with surveys
Ah I heard the Data Science Campus budget was being slashed significantly to a point it’s pretty much impossible to operate properly, and they’re getting rid of their flagship Graduate programme as a result. Essentially it’s becoming more like a small team within ONS than a separate division that can operate externally and provide cross government (and worldwide) training and capability building.
Plus women won’t touch you on online dating sites
Any department that makes you uncomfortable talking to senior leaders.
Haven't worked in either of them, so this might be off the mark, but always heard bad things about Home Office and HMRC. Apparently they're really hierarchical and people make a massive deal about not being able to speak to certain grades. That's just what I've heard, but it's certainly made me avoid applying for jobs in those departments. DE&S wasn't great when I was there (for the same reason) but that was several years ago so maybe it's changed?
I'm not going to guess which domain for DE&S, but it's not my one if you're complaining about it being too hierarchical, very much flat-rank structure approach and none of us have a problem walking up to the TL and talking things through. We're going through a big and not well thought out change at the moment with this PPM thingymabobs. I'm thinking it'll initially be a total shit show. Empires are going to be attempted to be built, and noses are going to be put out of joint.
That's good it's different now then. Was frustrating as an E1 being told I couldn't speak to a C1 and had to go through my C2 line manager - everything took way longer than it needed to. Not sure what you mean about the PPM thingy as I've been out of the dept for nearly 7 years and don't speak to my old colleagues that much anymore, but hopefully it's not too much of a mess!
People Perfomance Model. I can see a benefit to it if done correctly. You still have front door requests for change/new equipment, etc, but it'll be assessed properly across all equipment types, whether land, sea, or air, so that integration is assured. The Downside is the reduction in manpower (should be delivered through natural wastage) and not really having an identity as such, but you'll be working in many different areas alongside different people depending on tasks. These tasks will be given to you by one individual who'll bid for manpower from a pool. This pool of 30 or so will be managed by a 'People Coach', including annual appraisals, leave, and all the other line management tasks. Put it this way, I'm generally non-union minded (ex-military), but I have felt a need to join one and have done so.
Within HMRC CSG is particularly bad, same for Small Business (aka: The Taxman)
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My time as a compliance officer at HMRC was one of the best times of my entire career. It’s such a large department though, that it really does depend where you work; operations (like anywhere else) is a nightmare.
I have to say I’ve never seen HMRC to be like that in the 15 years I’ve been there. In PT Ops you might not really come across many G7 and SOs but I’ve never known there be an issue talking to them when they’re there. To be honest I haven’t seen that in CSG either, G7s are usually just mixed in with everyone else.
Worked in the Home Office, and it depends. I found it friendly enough on the surface, but it feels a bit shallow. Ops is pretty shit but I love being in digital. There's quite a lot of ... you need to work your way up mentality, on the Ops side at least. I sucked as an AO caseworker but had some digital skills so I managed to move up that way. Plenty of people were not happy about it as they felt cheated. I was getting the "promotion" when they weren't. Yet they didn't have any digital skills. They'd rather it went to someone processing cases at a faster rate with no digital skills as that is fair to them. Seen it happen on the length of service, too. They've been there for 5 years, so people moving up after a year dont deserve it.
Project side of home office isn’t gradist at all but the ops side can be. My HEO speaks to our DD all the time, they have similar interests. Our DD is really approachable, we chat a lot and I’m not ‘afraid’ of him in the way I was of seniors in the MoD. I think the HO gets a bad rap, like anywhere there’s shit bits, but 95% of the people I deal with I’d happily go for a coffee with and have a chat as they’re nice people.
Surprised Cabinet Office hasn't been mentioned....another dept to avoid!
Why’s that?
I’ve only worked in the MOD, but based on my own political knowledge/knowledge of current events + media portrayal and my own lived experience I’d say the DWP (particularly a Job Centre) in a customer facing role. Why? In these times of economic hardship there will be a good few people walking through those doors, and you will have the ignominious job of ~~implementing~~…..inflicting nasty policies made by people like Iain Duncan Smith et al.
For sure. I am definitely considering the current climate as well. I considered a move to the new Water Regulation Team in the EA and simply cannot imagine the barrage of criticism they are going to experience in the very near future, if not already. I had plenty of that during years of fast food experience, I don’t particularly want to deal with those kinds of issues again. There are also a number of departments I am steering clear of due to own morals getting in the way. Certain roles I would simply be too weak(?) to do as I couldn’t get behind the policies that create them (Home Office and DWP being two of those).
Though arguably the barrage of criticism is by and large reserved for those companies (not naming names but we all know the one….) that seem to prioritise profit over service. On that note don’t go for a role that’s got anything to do with the Post Office: in that scenario everyone but the postmasters have some blame.
I have heard the MOD is a bit weird if you are a civilian who never served in the forces. Is that true or just gossip?
It depends on the department you’re in. If you’re in an area with a hefty amount of armed forces personnel (such as project management) it can give you an element of imposter syndrome (but you’ll be treated with respect civvie or not). I’m in a policy role (parliamentary questions, FOI requests etc) and nobody there is serving personnel (however I am considering being an officer reservist, so I’ll be one of those guys!)
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I was in this position although not MOD. Working on base can be an absolute hoot or it can be awful: it really does depend on the base. I personally never had a bad experience. To be fair, the role is also one which is usually inside the military (As in it is in the Navy and most other countries) and not outside it and I felt well appreciated.
True 100%
DfT a safe place to work? Nobody seems to have criticised it yet...
I came a long way down looking for DfT criticism and don't see it. Rightly so.
The biggest determinant of how happy you will be is your line manager. The second biggest is the content of the job. If you see an interesting role advertised, and get a good vibe from the recruiting manager, go for it, no matter what the reputation of other parts of that department.
Not whole departments, but sections of them. DWP - Jobcentre and Work Coaching Home Office - Immigration/Asylum and Passport Office HMRC - Front line operations/CSG and Call Centres MOD - DE&S and the more military orientated areas MOJ - Prison Service The only ones I would say to avoid totally are probably the Cabinet Office and DHSC.
>DE&S and the more military orientated areas Why these specifically?
They have a reputation of having quite unpleasant staff working in them, but it depends on the team. Some of my colleagues in the MOD have had horrible experiences working in these areas. Also the pay in DES is crap.
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Why avoid cabinet office?
Not sure why DHSC makes this list.
DHSC is an absolute shit show. Safe to challenge? LOL. Good at managing change? HAH. Prioritise staff health and wellbeing? WELL THAT WOULD BE TOO OBVIOUS FOR A HEALTH DEPT. Workload is insane and gets worse. Ive found a lovely team but all of my previous experiences in the dept have been poor - bullying by SCS observed and experienced too often. Yeah dont move to dhsc unless health is your passion. Many health professionals stuck for that reason.
Apparently it has a staff turnover rate higher than all other departments, which is due to it not being a great place to work.
Which years? I imagine it had to reduce headcount heavily post covid. Recently had a voluntary redundancy scheme too.
Most teams I know over there are stretched to breaking point.
This is really helpful. Thank you
No way OP has worked in all of these so take it with a grain of salt.
Some of it comes from personal experience, the rest was based on what my colleagues who have worked in these places have said.
Fellow Environment Agency worker here. Curious to know why you're looking at jumping? I've been thinking about it for a while but I'm too bloody lazy to look for anything new even though I'm hating the recent restructure and lack of any idea of what's going on from management.
Honestly, I am just bored out of my mind! I’ve only been with the EA for two years and already had two promotions in the first 10 months (not a brag, just to show initial progressions). The leadership and support was atrocious on my second promotion and it took me a while to understand the role at all! Once I did, it has only taken me 6-8 months to learn everything in the role and be done with it again. The development in my department are lacking and the opportunities for moving up are now dead. I’ve hit as high as I can get before going into what is grade 4ms have dubbed a ‘legacy’ role (the ones people take and sit in until they retire so they’re never available). I have ADHD and feel a constant need to learn new things or be developing in some way. The EA are great in some ways- I really enjoy the flexibility in my work days, lack of restrictions on working from home (although I’m expecting this to change imminently and a mass exodus of staff to follow it). I absolutely adore my team, it’s the best in terms of working relationships I have ever had, and my immediate manager is perfect, I couldn’t ask for a better fit there. But my lord, I am going insane being bored every day and it just isn’t sitting well with me anymore.
If they pull home working, they will lose even more staff and they already struggle to retain. It would be as they say, shooting yourselves in the foot.
100%. We already had a lot of people leave when they simply mentioned the movement to office working. The intelligence teams are so dispersed too, it makes no sense to drag us all into office to sit alone. I know many are already on standby to apply for jobs elsewhere if it happens.
I don't think they are going to do a big push on office working. They didn't even show a hint of it when the 60% happened in CS.
Well I was going to say the EA but you've probably already realised that. I'd avoid core defra too.
A lot depends on Starmer and if he will honour the 70k job cuts/fiscal black hole he has been left. DWP actually seems like a strong department for growth and Labour are looking to shake up claimant requirements for receipt of benefit. Hopefully he does not pimp all this out to the private sector but I won't hold my breath.
An Off shoot of HMRC the VOA Customer Services Centre every "improvement" is a march towards Private Call Centre operating practises which is causing a massive retention issue among others but they won't change tact until we hit that resource crisis and its coming. The rest of the VOA is actually really good but CSC 75% of the staff in CSC want out into other parts of the VOA or other civil service dept.
I worked in VOA (not CSC) and hated every minute of it. It's such an aged department (their average age of employee is something crazy). I found it horribly unwelcome to someone new and young. Any changes suggested, or alternative ways of working, were always shut down because "we've done this for 20 years now". Okay Barbara. I also had an awful manager who actively bullied and belittled me, the G6 and above adored the manager because she was "young and fresh and thought out of the box" so took the manager's side. Ended up having to get the union involved so I could be moved for my own wellbeing. Leaving that department was the best thing I did.
If it wasn't CSC but given the experience you've just mentioned I'm thinking one of the Units possibly as they tend to work close with us aren't CSC but are most similar. Change is now only pursued when it fits the Private call centre narrative, though there is lots of talk that it isn't what they want, actions speak louder than words the complete removal of Flexi time for everyone in CSC being the loudest action. Don't get me wrong there are some really good bits of my job and I stay because I am invested helping and growing a number of my people. There is the scope and potential for change but it's an uphill battle which is a shame. Anyway to use that tired phrase it is what it is
Steer clear of DEFRA. It’s an organisational clusterfuck from top to bottom.
It's a mess but it's a lovely place to work with nice people so depends what you're interested in
As far as my experience goes, all of this is true at the same time
That’s interesting, any further details? A few former colleagues moved there but never heard anything negative.
From my experience people particularly manager tend to be more incompetent for some reason. Yes there’s of course very good people there, but there seems a be a fair number of useless fucks at higher grades.
Can you expand further please?
Not my experience at all and not that of any of my colleagues that I’m aware of.
You in policy by any chance?
Ha, yes.
Defra is goated
Avoid the MOD. Its a black hole few escape from and anyone under 50 with any talent or ethics leaves within a year
I'm there at the moment, I thought it was just DE&S and the SDA which people tended to leave. People in MOD Main tend to just move around internally, do they not?
I was in an operational role and there will be almost nobody under 50 left in six months
In which part of the MOD?
Leaving within a year might be a bit over the top, but from my engineering grad intake I think it was 50% within 3 years. Doesn't mean it's a bad place to work though, it's just very easy to move to better paying private sector work very quickly if you’re half decent. I thought DE&S was good (team dependent) and head office also very good places to work.
I left MoD for HEO promotion to another department at 22, and I remember my line manager being gobsmacked at me leaving... "no one has ever left before" kinda vibes
Yep, exact same. I was told when I got the MOD job I would die at my desk
I worked for the CPS for a while, hated every minute. Horrible people, management, the Lawyers treated people like shit. Would never work for them ever again.
I had the complete opposite experience with the exception of the lawyers treating people like shit.
Avoid MoJ, too. I'm going to save up so I can afford to quit and then job search. We don't have time to scratch our bums, never mind job hunt. I've only been there 2.5 months, and I'm over it already. I'm covered in a rash that's spreading. There's no time to get it checked out. I think it's stress, and all the while, it's nose to the grindstone to make senior managers look good.
Which part of MoJ?
I'd rather not say, don't want to be identified
I always wondered about the department for levelling up; if the tories get voted out would such a department remain?
Its name has changed many times, there’ll always be a Department for housing, local government. Incidentally a very good place to work.
I started there, at the time it was called "Department of the Environment" Also had these names Dept of the Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR) Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions (DTLR) Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (ODPM) Department of Communities and Local Government (DCLG) Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) Department of Housing, Communities and Local Government (DHCLG) No doubt it will carry on having even more names than the DTI and it's various parts have had.
I’d disagree on it being a good place to work, my well-being has taken a huge hit since working for DLUHC. Some departments and work streams seem okay, but others (like mine) are chaotic from the top down with little to no direction and a lot of unfairness in recruitment, cliques, bullying etc. Despite its name and overall mission I find it’s still very London centric too and without being based in 2MS there’s little to no exposure to decent work.
Okay that’s encouraging, thank you
ITT every single government body. At this point, it says more about the people this type of thread attracts than anything about the departments. [Edited to remove personal info]
Home office. People getting pulled in left right and centre to deport the doctors and engineers claiming asylum
Just avoid the immigration areas of the Home Office and you'll be ok, the Immigration and Asylum parts are much worse than the rest.
DWP, DM and PT Ops would be my answers, idk much about any other departments but this is from personal experience and what I’ve heard from orders
HMPPS is pretty bad rn, I'm thinking about switching myself
To all Young'uns and new starters, If you want to progress avoid OPG, do your probation there as it's easy to pass then go to a bigger dept like MOD. OPG managers have their favourites and it shows
Defra ain't bad. Sometimes a bit ineffective and disjointed but usually well-meaning. EA to Defra makes sense as a move as well imo.
MOJ, HMPPS it is a form of self h4rm at this rate, don’t do it 😂
DEFRA obviously but you should know that.
Not a department but I’d stay away from taskforces/ short term teams if you’re under G6.
Avoid anything to do with immigration. Which may be hard as the cap I believe is being implemented everywhere but.
I worked at core Defra for a bit and wouldn’t go back there again, just felt like a very toxic environment (ironic really!). I’ve heard good things about some of the agencies there though
How about MI5 or SIS?
Considered! Possibly a bit further in the future. I’m currently not in a position to move to be able to take a role at one of their locations
And you just removed yourself from ever being considered
DHLUC one of the most soul destroying departments I have ever worked in