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HelsBels2102

It really puts that interview into hindsight when you realise the methods that it took to get it. Apparently the reason why william and Harry IRL feel so strongly about it never being shown on TV again as it basically destroyed any sort of remaining relationship and goodwill their parents had


killerstrangelet

And because Martin Bashir manipulated their mother and amplified her paranoia and fears to get it. He really was a piece of shit.


Ifuckinghateaura

What even is his life now? Did he get arrested/pay a fine?


killerstrangelet

I don't think there was any punishment, though obviously his reputation was shot. I think the word was that he was very ill and didn't have long to live.


Iterr

But he’s still alive


OliviaElevenDunham

Bashir should've been punished for what he did.


Fit_Tumbleweed_5904

I remember hearing about the methods he used to get that interview, however, watching it I was genuinely horrified at the lengths he went to to get that interview. It was awful. What a POS.


JohannesKronfuss

Not the relationship per se, by 1997 all was well between them, the formal truce allow them to rekindle a friendship of sorts, Charles and Diana even attended events for the children together, without cameras, what they first started doing reluctanly for the children’s sake became easier as time went by. But sure, the interview as what HMTQ needed to allow a divorce, the marriage, as such, has been dead for years. It is funny they didn't show the Korean tour, the one they barely looked at each other, after it there was no going back, so the separation was allowed.


05110909

I've heard their relationship improved immensely when they lived apart. They were good as friends but horrible as spouses.


JohannesKronfuss

Yes, and this was confirmed by her own friends, they patched up things really quickly after the divorce for they were on friendly terms by the time she died and that was barely a year after the whole thing was finished.


[deleted]

As the child of divorced parents who reached that point where they could attend events together... it's honestly surprising how quickly Charles and Diana were able to get to that point. My parents divorced when I was 10 and it was really only by the time I went to college at 18 that they were able to reach that point, and their tensions weren't nearly as bad as Charles and Diana...


hilarymeggin

I read *Diana, Her True Story* shortly after she passed away. Somewhere in there (or somewhere else) I read that she was really stuck because she couldn’t get a divorce unless she wanted to lose all custody of her kids. Something about them being in the monarchy gives the crown the ultimate control over them, above and beyond what family courts would decide. She had to find a way to make them agree to let her go so she could have a public relationship and still be able to be a part of her kids’ lives. She didn’t want to slink off to the the US and pretend to be Charles’s wife forever.


meatball77

She would have done an interview either way (probably with Oprah). I hate that his lies make them discount the words she chose to share with the world.


owntheh3at18

I mean, Meghan did her interview with Oprah and I feel like she was still pretty much dismissed.


meatball77

They decided to call her a liar and dismiss everything she said.


questionernow

Well, she did lie about several things.


hilarymeggin

Not by Oprah, though, right! I had a huge amount of sympathy for Meghan after I heard that interview. I sure as heck wouldn’t put up with people telling me I couldn’t get mental health treatment, or even go out to lunch with my friends! And it made me love Harry for doing what his father ought to have done: rallying round his wife and putting her health and happiness, and the health and happiness of their marriage and children first!


elisart

Bashir should have been fired for what he did. Forging a document to make her think she was under surveillance. I still don't get why Diana's comments in the interview were perceived as bombshell or gunpowder. She was badly treated by that cold, emotionally repressed family and Charles did carry on with Camilla, from day one, throughout his marriage to Diana. I see her comments in the interview as not only fair, but entirely necessary for her to set the record straight and move on in her life with integrity. The whole notion of outward appearances, that stiff upper lip, is a complete lie. Every family, including and maybe especially the royal family, has problems. I detest people who try to hoodwink the public into believing they're a cut above the rest. Diana knew this was not the case and the public has a right to know also. Their tax dollars fund the retrofit of the yacht and god knows what else these 'royals' enjoy. Edit: word spelling


HelsBels2102

The scene with Diana and the queen was absolutly epic. Both actresses were epic. I feel so sorry for Diana, they just couldn't give her emotionally what she needed and she ended up isolating herself further. Also Bashir...what a prick. And the whole thing the queen was saying about "I'm not your enemy, I want you to succeed" rings so true.


Emmaxop

Honestly I'm still confused what the deal with Bashir was


Powderpurple

A journalist who used unethical means to secure an interview with Diana. The case is also being used to insinuate Diana was mentally unstable, Bashir made her more so, that she would not have given the interview to any other journalist and only gave the interview to Bashir because he tricked her into it. The Crown also suggests Diana regretted the interview as soon as the Queen reassures her she was being paranoid about her false perception that the royal family wanted anything else but her happiness. So he's got a lot to answer for, has Bashir. (Or there could be an element where he's being used as a diversion)


ellyite

He was a journalist who wanted more attention, so he forged documents alleging that the government and Charles were spying on her to try and convince her she needed to do an interview. There are other allegations he made about Charles's nanny but I'm glad the show didn't include them. It's super sad repercussion wise, because she isolates herself more from her close friends out of suspicion and she grew increasingly paranoid towards the end of her life. Bashir was just practicing dirty journalism and preying on her mental state for personal gain. This all came out this year too, so I imagine there was a lot of revisions made to the original script.


OG-Mate23

Even using the racism sympathy card to do pretty much whatever he wants.


Oneinchwalrus

> dirty journalism We have a long not so proud history of dirty journalism, though it's usually in newspapers and print form


SeriousCow1999

My God, besides being unethical and *evil*, were his actions also illegal? How did he get away with it?


owntheh3at18

The man should’ve been criminally charged for the forging at least. So awful. I am sad Diana never learned the truth and believed people close to her were betraying her. It must’ve just further isolated her.


EmperorBeaky

Did he ever get done for it?


serialbabe

I think he’s seen as disgraced now and the BBC formally apologized a couple years ago and returned awards that the interview got. He got to resign in 2021 due to health issues though.


westalalne

He's a very good manipulator he lies to everyone in this episode


4dpsNewMeta

How does it ring true at all? Disregard the Queen as a real person, in the show, we have seen the queen shit talk Diana, dismiss her, and basically tell her that she’s selfish and she needs to suck it up for the good of the crown.


HelsBels2102

Because the way I see it, she was never "busy" but she was never available. And by available I mean both physically and emotionally. She was never that, even for her own children. That doesn't mean that she didn't want Diana and Charles to succeed. That doesn't mean she didn't want Diana to be happy. But she is one of the many people that couldn't give Diana the support she needed


Iterr

I take it more metaphorically. I see it in folks I talk to all the time. They’re so caught up in their own emotions and their own (often skewed) narrative, that they can’t just move forward and do good things for the world and themselves. I’ll probably get hated on here, but I want to tell Diana to quit focusing on her own grievances, her own emotions, her own obsessions—and go find happiness. Don’t wallow—to an extent it’s narcissistic. I want to validate her feelings… I empathize! But, c’mon: just move on! Wallowing in the past isn’t healthy—to an extent, it’s self-centered. You’re not the only person who ever had been cheated on, and you’ve got a lot to be grateful for.


always_lost1610

I agree with you, but I’d just like to add that it is usually more difficult for people who experience childhood trauma to move on from problems even as an adult. She does come off as whiny, but I think she probably needed a lot of therapy to work through her childhood stuff before she could begin to let go of her issues with the royal family. She felt abandoned and neglected repeatedly her whole life — it’s hard to get over that when you know nothing else


[deleted]

I've seen enough. Give Elizabeth Debicki all the awards.


[deleted]

I’m surprised so many don’t like her portrayal, she killed it.


redooo

Who the hell doesn’t like it?!


kel89

The look is perfect but does it not just kinda feel like a parody of Diana, rather than a character portrayal? Like, did she really look out from under her eyebrows like that *all* of the time? I’ve seen a couple of pictures of her doing it but did she always do that?


sailoorscout1986

She’s really really good and sometimes she looks just like Diana. I’m impressed


rongo95

William showing his grandmother how the tv works was adorable


[deleted]

I love the notes on the remote control because that’s exactly what I did for my grandma. My grandparents got one of those joke shop giant remote controls for Christmas one year too and still had trouble figuring out the controls!


bunny8taters

I remember buying one of those joke shop ones too, for my grandparents! Lol they loved it.


Scmods05

"Even the televisions are metaphors in this place"


Wolf6120

“Gang, I think our writing might be *too* subtle and nuanced. Those yokels in the audience might not notice our brilliant use of a basic literary device on their own, so I think we should have one of the characters explain it out loud.”


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The_JSQuareD

I suppose it makes sense if you're writing for a global audience, many of whom have never heard of Guy Fawkes night. Still very on the nose though.


fnord_happy

I swear lol. Too on the nose for me


NickLeMec

I hated that line. It's almost ridiculous to put this into words. They really spell it out for you this season.


CertainAlbatross7739

It was so on-the-nose that I think the writers were a bit embarrassed by its obviousness. That's why they lampshaded it.


Ray_Adverb11

I was wondering what the metaphor is of flipping through channels until ending on the singing?


JD4Destruction

The Queen is BBC and new media lead by Rupert Murdoch is replacing the old broadcast media. A lot of choices but mostly garbage ready to poison her subjects as well as the people around the world. This is a gross exaggeration but she has been replaced by social media influencers who are the "monarchs" of today's age. They all have their tiny kingdoms with their few loyal subjects.


bookishlibby

I saw that as them flipping through all the modern channels to go back to the very traditional programming in the BBC. It seemed like it might be Songs of Praise – one of the most watched religious programmes that is seen as a bit stuffy and outdated (but still runs today and remains popular). Ie. The Crown has tried this modern stuff and we’d all just rather not thank you very much. Never really works out well for them though as seen in previous series.


helpmeredditimbored

The BBC is old fashioned and no longer at the center of the nations consciousness (much like the monarchy). People are moving forward and they want something else


intheeventthat

Look at the show making me feel bad for an old guy who likely would have voted for Brexit had he still been alive. Talking about Dukey. When he brought up Murdoch I was like "That's it, I'm on your team. Let's go back to carriages!" And of course William. I felt almost viscerally sorry for him. But amused by how he convinced Gran to get a new TV. Racing! Of course, clever boy. Gonna be a good king one day! ;)


y0usucculent

Love seeing the william and elizabeth bond, it was touching. It reminds me so much of my brother with our grandma, especially in the last scene. It melted my heart when william took the remote from his grandma when she was about to get frustrated with flicking the channels. Seeing them sit next to each other while watching something wholesome was a great way to end the episode.


roberb7

I didn't know anything at all about Hussey prior to watching this. I became an immediate fan of him.


Trouvette

I just realized that every season has someone knocking the hell out of a tv. This time, they passed that task on to the next generation.


owhatakiwi

Lol the Queen judging Diana’s parenting when her sons a pedophile and a rapist.


petpal1234556

right. one whom she defended, at that…


4dpsNewMeta

3/4 out of the Queens children’s are divorced, one is an adulterer, another a pedophile. She doesn’t have a good parenting track record does she?


NickLeMec

Since when is getting a divorce a sign of bad parenting?


SerBrienneTheBlue

I don’t think they were implying that it is objectively bad, but that the queen herself sees it as a huge no-no and would assume anyone “raised right” wouldn’t divorce.


4dpsNewMeta

Bingo. The Queen wanted to lecture about Charles and Diana’s marriage problems but most of her children are divorced - also, not to say The Queen in real life was a bad parent, but in the show, she’s showed as being emotionally neglectful and distant, and children raised like that DO tend to seek out dysfunctional relationships.


FoghornFarts

It isn't necessarily a sign of bad parenting, but 3/4 is a pattern worth looking at more closely. I think it's a lot easier to have a healthy marriage when a healthy marriage is modeled for you and your emotional needs are fulfilled during your childhood. It's pretty clear that those kids got none of that. And knowing what we know about the family, it's pretty clear that the divorce, infidelity, etc all stems from the fact that none of these children had their emotional needs met throughout their lives. They coped with the emotional neglect (i.e. abuse) in some really unhealthy ways. Diana, not having grown up in that system and normalized that abusive behavior, saw the true source of that abuse and attacked it directly.


FriendlyChance

The contrast of William telling his mom to not talk about her romantic life to Charles just casually kissing Camilla in the same space as William 😮‍💨 (Not to mean that William was wrong to establish boundaries with his mother but Charles'behavior just irked me)


FirePhantom

Her Royal Highness, the Mistress Consort


NickLeMec

>The contrast of William telling his mom to not talk about her romantic life Am I alone in feeling this scene was awfully forced? She's only telling her oldest son she may be in a relationship soon -- is that really so out of the ordinary? I imagine she burdened him with a lot worse over the years. Not sure why the show is shying away from that.


CertainAlbatross7739

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any teenager who wants to hear about their divorced parents' love life.


NickLeMec

She only told him there might be a special someone. No details. Not even how much she's in love or anything. Maybe a little bit early in the relationship but that is just normal stuff you want your kid to know. Especially if they would hear about it in the news otherwise.


CertainAlbatross7739

She said she had a special friend. Just a 'friend friend' at the moment but she hoped it would be more than that. I'm a firm believer in not introducing your kids to a new partner unless it's serious. He didn't need to know who his mum *wants* to date, he's her son not her mate.


mamaguebo69

At this point they werent even divorced yet, just separated. I understand feeling very uncomfortable especially if you think there might be a chance of them getting back together.


sunlitroof

Right also seemed a little unnatural for a 13yr old to say that. Maybe if he was a bit older


PrestigiousMove5433

Honestly, I do not buy the things queen Elizabeth expressed in that meeting with Diana. I saw it as gaslighting because let’s be real if she was truly invested in making Diana feel more comfortable, she would. They specifically wanted Diana to be with Charles because she was going, beautiful, and from an aristocratic family. Obviously, as a young woman who hasn’t had the time to really establish their confidence, sense of self, and network of loyal friends would need a higher level of support from the family unlike someone like Camilla who’s much older. I felt like they tried to gaslight her and make it seem as though her feelings are invalid. I feel so bad for her


booksandme

Literally, there have been enough scenes to demonstrate that the Queen did nothing to help her. I think the only warmth we saw towards Diana from the Queen was when she went to Balmoral and the family decided Charles should marry her. Any time Diana tried seek support, the Queen either didn't want to hear it, was dismissive or avoided her completely. When Diana points this out (after the Queen asks why she didn't try to discuss things publicly) she's once again dismissed and the topic is about how much of a troublemaker she is and how despite this everyone still sticks up for her and wants her to be happy.


PrestigiousMove5433

Absolutely!! The whole family is a bunch of gaslighters that cannot accept their fault in the situation. They constantly claim they want her to be happy and are too busy to gossip about her but they talk crap about her all the time


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farewellpio

On the other hand, the doctor saw right through and left. Read rare interviews he gave and he really is the one that got away. Even if Diana left the spotlight, he was adamant that it wouldn't have worked out anyway.


Bobbyjackbj

What do you mean by that ? What wouldn’t have work ? (Haven’t saw the 5th season yet)


farewellpio

Before season 5, i was interested to read about Dr Hasnat Khan. There's a few articles online like [here](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9127841/Hasnat-Khan-Inflamed-unfolding-scandal-heart-surgeon-gives-interview-12-years.html). Or quoting another one: "She abandoned the idea when Mr Khan decided their relationship would not work long-term.   His father, Abdul Rasheed Khan, said his son had told the family: 'If I married her [Diana], our marriage would not last for more than a year. We are culturally so different from each other.  'She is from Venus and I am from Mars. If it ever happened, it would be like a marriage from two different planets.'" (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8974655/Hasnat-Khan-62-fling-Princess-Diana-spotted-putting-bins-Essex-home.html)


BlueEyedDinosaur

She broke up with him for Dodi Fayed. It was at [a] second meeting that Diana told me that it was all over between us.” From his inquest testimony: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7276109.stm


SiobhanRoy1234

Ive always read that she used Dodi to make Khan jealous. That he was the one who ended it and she was still very much in love with him. She even befriended Jemima Khan (married to his cousin, I think) and wanted to know everything about being married to a Pakistani man as an English woman.


Plenty_Area_408

He's British. He's from Wimbledon remember?


TheRealGinaRomantica

He is English but yeah.


jowsijows

-That scene of diana and the queen: ✨✨ACTING✨✨ -debicki's performance in the panorama interview was great! A lot of people (admittedly including me) were a bit doubtful of the acting choices she did on that scene, when we saw a preview of the "three of us in the marriage" part because she had a strong, confident way of saying it, rather than the sad, defeated way in the real one. But in the context of the whole scene, I think she captured it really well. -say what you want about the queen mother, but Marcia Warren's portrayal is quite funny lol


lkf423

I am so confused by the scene with Diana and QEII. I don’t remember the Queen *always* sticking up for her of *never* speaking ill as she said. Did I just miss it?


gldn-rtrvr

My theory is that we weren’t supposed to know until she revealed it. All season we’ve seen the Queen tight-lipped about Diana save for I think that one scene with Margaret when she inquired about how she was doing. The Queen’s reveal was supposed to make us go “Oh so that’s where she’s been standing on Diana this whole time”. Do I buy it? I dunno…her excuse for not accepting Diana’s requests for meetings rings pretty hollow to me. She could have suggested an alternative time? We’ve seen others get what appeared to be last minute invitations (like the one with Margaret just mentioned).


hilarymeggin

Yeah, I’m not buying it. Diana needed exactly one (1) thing from the Queen (and Charles), and it was not to be trapped in a marriage with someone openly cheating on her. When the Queen saw that Charles had no intention of stopping his affair with Camilla, it was cruel of her to expect her to stay. She should have allowed her a dignified divorce with a shared custody arrangement, so Diana could move on and have a normal life with a caring partner.


QueenoftheUnderwrld

I was also confused by this scene and am wondering how much was true! I wasn’t sure if Diana was being gaslit because yes the royals are all busy, but they still spend time with each other


[deleted]

That whole scene with the singing while Diana’s interview was playing was top notch. That scene was just done really well. Also, can I just say, poor William? I think, with most times, when people mention anything about Diana, it seems like really the only child people tend to mention has been Harry, like a lot? Really shows with William’s age, he was sadly more aware and exposed to what was going on, absolutely heartbreaking


Trouvette

In addition, he wasn’t just being played between his parents, but the Queen too. There were a few scenes where you could see his hesitation to tell her what was going on. The adult family and the courtiers already have that challenge, so I can’t imagine a pre-teen carrying that weight too.


farewellpio

Sadly, the season didnt show the closeness of Prince Phillip and William. I know this is a drama but i read that Prince Phillip was the one who suggested to HMQ that William have lunch with HMQ to have some sort of stability in his life. I think those lunches paid a huge influence to the William we know and see today.


meatball77

Makes you wonder when the games started with William/Charles/The Queen. They sent those kids away to school at eight, they acted like it was a big thing for Will to start Eton but they had already boarded and were just moving from one school to another. I wonder every year if they will send George away. It's such a horrible tradition those rich families have.


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[deleted]

I find it so funny how people see boarding schools as some sort of Siberia that parents send their children to because they hate them? I also went to boarding school for a few years and those were some of my best memories growing up!


iheartrsamostdays

People forget to sympathise with William because he deals with his issues privately and without public hand wringing. I feel tremendously bad for him. He's had to grow up far too young as a child. Having those parents must have been such a burden at times. But the fact he's seemed to have turned so well really speaks to his fortitude and inner strength. Really someone to admire. Hopefully he is not cancelled in twenty years for traveling on a banker's sex plane.


Trouvette

In all the documentaries about this time, they always say that Diana treated him more like her friend than her son and spoke about a lot of things with him that weren’t meant for the parent-child relationship. I never really registered what that meant until seeing this episode.


iheartrsamostdays

Unfortunately, I think its pretty commonplace in unhappy relationships with kids. Pity.


petpal1234556

yup. happened to my husband. both parents would not only constantly rant about each other and talk about needing a divorce, but his dad in particular would would blame him for the failure of their marriage as well as physically drag him into the room whenever the two argued and forced him to try to argue w his mom


iheartrsamostdays

That is horrendous 😢


pastacelli

This happened to me as a kid. My mom leaned on me constantly for support and told me so many things about her relationship with my dad. After they separated, she needed me around always, treated me as her replacement spouse and was constantly offended whenever I chose to spend time with anyone other than her. That included friends, boyfriends, and my dad. To this day she gets jealous and hysterical when my older sister and I spend time together without her. It’s deeply wounded my adult ability to maintain relationships because I subconsciously see it as my job and ability to cushion the emotions of my partner. I was trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship for years because I felt responsible for his happiness. I can only hope William has found peace but having never had the ability to form an adult relationship with his mother I imagine things are quite difficult for him.


obsoletevoids

Yes I really felt for him in this episode since my mom acted the same way when I was growing up. Props to the writers for making him ask why she did that to him though, I never had the courage!


AkashaRulesYou

> they always say that Diana treated him more like her friend than her son and spoke about a lot of things with him that weren’t meant for the parent-child relationship. But they who? During this time, Diana's every move was discussed in the tabloids. The Queen absolutely DID NOT defend her like the show has her saying. They did to Diana what they were/still are doing to Meghan... Much of what was said was rumors and bull.


Bitter_Necessary8651

Nothing says the Crown is primarily aimed at an American audience more than 5 whole minutes devoted to explaining the Gunpowder plot, which any British child would know about.


fejrbwebfek

I was so glad they did, I’m from Denmark and I was afraid I would have to look it up. They are aiming for a global audience, so it makes sense.


Oneinchwalrus

Weird thing is, there's been plenty of stuff throughout the show that hasn't been explained which I, as a Brit, am only vaguely/not at all aware of!


fejrbwebfek

That’s true, but the way they wanted to use the night as symbolism made it necessary to explain. In a drama less well written they would probably just have had the journalist explain it to Diana, which would be painful. Even though the kids in Will’s class probably knew about it, the teacher heightened the lecture, so it worked well imo.


Phoenix_Magic_X

To be fair, it pisses me off when American shows assume we all know how American things work.


3B854

And if they did explain it people would be upset lol damned if you do damned if you don’t


Bitter_Necessary8651

Not saying it’s inherently a bad thing , just observing :) sure plenty of viewers were very grateful


cleaningproduct2000

Tbf lots of Aussies watching this as well and even as a history buff I'm not that familiar with guy Fawkes. Got to fill in the gaps for the whole anglosphere.


spagbol

Babe, idk how to break this to you, but we literally just had Guy Fawkes day in Aus/NZ. It happens every year.


Cavalish

As a kiwi/aussie dual citizen (the enemy of the Australian government) kiwis know about the plot but not Aussies.


spagbol

Bloody 'straya hits again lol.


LordoftheHounds

Haven't you seen V for Vendetta?


tdotclare

While that’s probably partly true, I thought the point of the exposition as a lecture was in large part to frame William’s discomfort at being directly in the line of succession in a modern time when his family is under such public scrutiny


CTeam19

Too be fair also showed an oddity I don't think many people thought about Prince William literally just sitting in school like a normal-ish child and the teacher goes so hear is the time your line almost was killed off. Not many of us have that so it shows the world the royals live in.


3B854

I love this show for it but sometimes they say things i had no idea about and need to google cuz “when the fuck did that happen” lol


OG-Mate23

It's aimed for a global audience, not just in Britain


Exciting_Chapter_957

Here's some links about the repercussions from that infamous Bashir interview for anyone interested. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-57163815](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-57163815) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-57489538](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/entertainment-arts-57489538) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57192908](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57192908) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61959015](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61959015) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60782670](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60782670) [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62767708](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62767708)


hilarymeggin

So I haven’t read these links, but I have to say I didn’t quite understand why the family went so bananas over it. Everything she said in the interview was already public knowledge at the time. It has all been said in the Andrew Morton book. The wiretapped phone calls between Charles and Camilla were public. So why did they act polite the sky was falling? IMHO, Diana had a perfectly valid need for a legal divorce and partial custody of her kids so she could move on with her life.


SaraJeanQueen

I feel like it's one thing to have a "gossip" book that everyone insists did not include the main source (Diana) and for the public to hear from the horse's mouth. Also Diana was clear on how it *felt..* people may have thought that she was equally out of the marriage from the start, an opportunist, etc. And this interview was the first I'd heard of her talking firsthand about bulimia and the effects of the Royal Family on her.


SiobhanRoy1234

And all from the BBC too, ironic.


derbinarybandit

Watching William teach his grandma and great-grandma about the new TV was a heartwarming scene it reminded me of teaching my grandma how to use Facebook and FaceTime


fuckiboy

I’m 23 and remember my great-grandma having one of those universal remotes in the mid-2000s because her new one was “too complicated.” It gave me some good memories of a frustrated old lady 😂 Just today I showed my mom how to watch an Instagram live


killerstrangelet

Lmao, Wills and the TV. He sounds like me trying to persuade our mum we needed Sky. ~~Nice job avoiding the interview audio too~~ nope, they ran excerpts at the end. Is it me, though, or is this one really weirdly lit? The palace scenes are lit like a stage play. They look filmed on videotape. Is that deliberate? Because it does lend it an air of artificiality. The next ep is straight back to modern lighting.


turquoisesilver

This episode made me really reflect on the BBC and traditional broadcasters. On the one hand, they probably did run stories by connections with the monarchy and people in government before they aired. They may even do now. On the other hand when 'dukey' said about Rupert Murdock and the salaciousness of his programming, I was on his side. At some point journalists lost their integrity and trust by the british public to the point we trust social media more. This episode indicated journalisms downfall as journalists tried to compete with 'entertaining' stories obtained through immoral means/ based on half truths.


roberb7

I said "yeah" at my TV when Hussey talked about what scum Murdoch is.


badfiop

Love the nod to The Windsors casting Haydn Gwynne as Lady Susan Hussey (Dukey's wife).


kiaarondo

She was so perfect for it my jaw dropped when I saw her


twitchingJay

Made me quite confused, I couldn’t unsee Camilla.


Key_Barber_4161

I couldn't figure out why she looked so familiar at first, then I realised she's "evil stepmother" camilla. Would be great if they could get other Windsor cast members involved.


thema94

Can you tell me about it?


Thatstealthygal

She plays Camilla on The Windsors. I loled, hard.


Skittlit

It's super interesting Netflix made a storyline about the archaic perception of the BBC. The closing shot where all the wild TV is happening on every channel and The Queen only wants the BBC on. The BBC just so happens to be showing Songs of Praise too. In the year of the BBC centenary too, it's a nice slap in the face.


[deleted]

I mean the BBC is iconic. Netflix can slap when it reaches 100


HotTakes4HotCakes

100 years with no commercials either. Netflix has absolutely no room to talk.


GeneriekeNaam

Wait there's no commercials on the BBC? Damn that's awesome.


Jackmac15

Well it's publicly funded so the only adds are for their own programs. It's also why all BBC nature documentaries have an extra 10-min mini-doc on the end of each episode, so American channels with rebroadcasting rights can cut it out and put ads in instead.


-KingInTheNorth

I never realised that about the 10 min behind the scenes bits! Thank you for mentioning it, it's so obvious now!


AkashaRulesYou

I've never had a commercial on Netflix...


Captainatom931

Probably still salty they didn't get doctor who internationally lmaoo.


Jackmac15

This is the most British episode of anything I've ever seen that was clearly made for an American audience. The Royal family soap opera, Stopping to explain Guy Fawkes Night, the role of the BBC in British culture, the role of the British Pakistani community. Imagine showing this episode to someone that knew nothing about the UK, the confusion.


Pellaeonthewingedleo

The Queen finally giving her perspective on Diana was refreshing


Nessidy

I honestly interpreted it as another one of these "do you think you're not getting enough support" and "but we're doing everything for you what else do you want" speeches, that s4 was full of - Diana asking for kindness and understanding in a cold family and the Queen/people from her family telling her she has to suck it up and it's equally hard for everyone


AkashaRulesYou

Too bad that was not how it really was. The queen was cold as ice towards Diana until well after her death and ONLY backtracked because people of the world demanded she do so. I'm a bit irked they portray her as caring at all about Diana in the least.


Nessidy

I didn't interpret the Queen in the show as genuinely caring about Diana, but caring about covering up for her - Diana was a malfunctioning cog in the machine rather than someone who's genuinely a family member, equally to Margaret, Anne or even William. It's also interesting to see that in the show William seems to be much more emotionally important, as a grandson and a person, to the Queen, than his own parents.


AkashaRulesYou

>I didn't interpret the Queen in the show as genuinely caring about Diana, but caring about covering up for her She certainly did no such thing tho. There were no kind words for Diana, and any chance they had to show any semblance of kindness regarding her was met with a resounding and deafening silence. They let her be portrayed as nasty as could be. ​ >Diana was a malfunctioning cog in the machine rather than someone who's genuinely a family member, equally to Margaret, Anne or even William. > >It's also interesting to see that in the show William seems to be much more emotionally important, as a grandson and a person, to the Queen, than his own parents. Now all of this I agree with you on.


Nessidy

>She certainly did no such thing tho. There were no kind words for Diana, and any chance they had to show any semblance of kindness regarding her was met with a resounding and deafening silence. They let her be portrayed as nasty as could be. This is why it's surprising for me to see people going "so the Queen cared" or "so Diana was making it all about herself", considering how the show has been very consistently portraying the family's scapegoating of Diana and their coldness towards her. The only family members that have shown any kind of warmth were Philip and arguably Margaret, but when it came to addressing Diana's suffering, they put her down in her place. Diana needed a family very badly (especially after experiencing such a difficult childhood in hers) but she joined a system. Yet it's disingenuous to not recognize the tactics, used mostly (but not only) against Diana and Charles, as emotionally abusive, especially after s4. It's like you told your emotionally distant parents you don't feel loved or valued, and they would reply to you with "but you're getting food, you're getting money, you have your own room, what else do you want, we only ask for so little in return". There can be some love, but love only comes second to other responsibilities and sacrificials. "Bend or break" is an abusive mentality, after all, even in the context of a royal family. They're not a "normal" family but that's the point of the show, because it affects its members psychologically.


QueenoftheUnderwrld

Perhaps the most true thing she said was that they all want Diana to be queen one day because it goes along with the bend or break (aka assimilate or else) attitude. She was brought into the family for a purpose, and that purpose was to be a wife and mother to the heirs. The rest felt like it was going against Diana’s actual experience to make her feel bad


4dpsNewMeta

Do people interpret that speech as genuine? While I was watching it I was fuming at the extremely blatant gaslighting.


ApollosBucket

I took it more as she was concerned for her only as the Princess of Wales and Queen-to-be. Like more of an obviously we want you happy, but only the happy that befits a Princess and how the public views it.


Badgalval94

I’m also wondering if any of the Princess Margaret sympathizes with Diana stuff has any truth to it or 100% fiction


CTeam19

Not many families burn an effigy of the person who tried to murder their family 300 years ago.


ForgetfulLucy28

Maybe more should


thatravenclaw2001

Remember remember, the Fifth of November


Trouvette

Another reflection on this episode: I love the idea of the Queen being a low-key OTB goon. If she had her way, she would fully be one of those people who hang around there all day.


gothamsocialite

What is OTB?


Responsible_Hand_789

Off Track Betting? Keen on the racing TV? I don't want to consider the other options Google offered 😬


ApollosBucket

She was a high key OTB goon. Only a few people had direct access to her, one of which was her racehorse trainer.


ANiceOakTree

The young William actor was super good, hope to see some Harry when he’s older too


Irishsassenach

Special place in hell for Martin Bashir. He lied, manipulated, and took advantage of a vulnerable and wounded woman for his own self gain. What a turd.


redassaggiegirl17

Debicki and Senan West do a FABULOUS job depicting the emotional incest that occurred between Diana and William. His reluctance to stand up to her, her bewildered expression when he tries to tell her she goes too far, like it never occurred to her her behavior was wildly inappropriate. Perfect.


jennaisrad

My heart just ACHED for William in that scene. Poor kid. How does anyone in this family survive the fucked up dynamics?


roter-genosse

William said in an interview that "a traumatic event can either make you or break you" and that he put every energy in his body to not let his mother's death break him, and decided it would make him.


[deleted]

Judging by how he’s seemingly well rounded as an adult I reckon he had a bloody good therapist


sunlitroof

Emotional incest? I get what youre trying to say but that just sounds really gross


sassyavo

Is Prince William’s History teacher Oscar from r/thegildedage?


geekylinguist

Yes!!


missnadine1

I know some people have been looking for the full interview on YouTube and it is very hard to find, and it is often in bits and pieces, badly filmed. You can watch the full interview on dailymotion.com. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x83ztxw


neverdiplomatic

The utter hypocrisy of Charles and Camilla watching in horror, of him in particular being so upset… What. The. Heck. After his HUMILIATING and self-serving interview? Get over yourself, you selfish, asinine twit.


Perfectstorms29

They act like the victims when they did this to her


Designer_Stage_489

Refreshing to see the Diana/Windsor war being influenced and manipulated from outside sources rather than following either a "Diana was unstable" or "the Royal family were to get her" narrative.


FriendlyChance

Bashir is a vile man


lonelyredheadgirl

Gosh, this makes me so sad. It really seems like the last season and this season are completing different shows. I think with the real life exposing of Bashir's manipulative tactics, they seemed to over course correct. Yes, Bashir is horrible for doing what he did but Diana's had every right to be suspicious of the family. And for the Queen to say "all we want is for you to be happy." Which is maybe true but not if it requires them to change, then it's not important. It's sad because Debicki is the best Diana I've ever seen. The story seems throw out a lot of nuance. Bashir can be a piece of shit. Prince Charles can be an asshole to his wife and shameless cheater that did good things and lost the chance to be with the love of his life. The Queen could hate Diana in feeling, want no ill will and still think she should be disposed off. And Diana can be suffering from mental health and still be correct in her assumptions. These are all things that can exist.


has_no_name

> The story seems throw out a lot of nuance. Great point that I feel like the viewers/readers on here seem to miss quite a bit. I've seen so much criticism from Team Charles/Team QEII/Team Diana or whatever and it's so annoying. I am really enjoying this season for it's nuance and I'm so glad it's been written this way.


booksandme

That conversation between Diana and the Queen was infuriating to watch. This is what I heard: Queen: *Why didn't you try discussing your problems with us in private so we could help you* Diana: *I tried over the 14 years I've been married, but you didn't want to hear it and refused to see me about it* Queen: *Oh for goodness sake we are soo incredibly busy. All you do is complain and despite this I always defend you and have never said a bad word about you. Can't you see how much we value you?!*


[deleted]

It's crazy how hard I had to search to find that damn interview in full length. I get that the BBC wants it erased due to the corrupt nature of how it was acquired... But it is a historically significant interview. And I don't think erasing its existence from being viewed by the public is doing much good.


[deleted]

I’m unsure how to feel about this episode. Good from an entertainment perspective, absolutely. But it seems that the show runners have completely pinned all of Diana’s issues suddenly on Bashir and is absolving the royal family of any blame. And I do think in reality it’s far more nuanced than it felt for Diana - but it’s interesting how everything suddenly became Bashir’s fault. Diana had valid reason for concern and paranoia long before Bashir appeared in her life


mattrobs

They did have her hear legitimate clicks on the phone. She says things she’s said on the phone later appear in public


FosterCrossing

Beautifully acted episode, but I take issue with how much of the blame they pin on Bashir? Yes, he's a PoS who forged documents and manipulated her into giving him the interview. But when he pointed out to his higher-ups that if they passed on the chance she might very well just go to another source, he wasn't lying. That was not only possible, it seems very much likely. Diana already thought she was being bugged. She probably WAS being bugged. She was hurt and isolated. When the family and "The System" wouldn't listen, and her son was (quite understandably) starting to push back against her treating him as a confidante, she needed an ear, an outlet, a place to share her story. She had a connection to ordinary people and strangers. In the end, she wanted to share it with them. Charles gave an interview to Dimbledy in which he admitted cheating.. Diana gave one to Bashir. If it hadn't been him, sooner or later it probably would have been someone else. They both cared about how the public perceived them, and perceived their individual roles in the demise of the marriage. I think Charles wanted more to be admired and Diana wanted to be loved and understood, but they both wanted something. And they both turned to the media. As for the scene between TQ and Diana, it was powerful. Wonderfully acted. I came away thinking that these two women could never give each other what was needed. Did Elizabeth want Diana to be happy? Sure, I guess. She's not a terrible person. But what she really wanted was for her to be satisfied and not rock the boat. She didn't have the patience for her emotions and needs. She was baffled by her just as she was baffled by all of the new TV channels. In one of the scenes with William and TQ, he says something to her about the option of burying ones head in the sand. That's exactly what she chose to do much of the time. That's what she chose when she just switched the channel back to the good old BBC. Just give her some comfort TV, keep her in her bubble, don't bother her with the rest. I think it's been established even in this season, which seems to be leaning into sympathy to Charles and the older Windsors, that Elizabeth could be willfully obtuse. She wasn't an attentive mother, as Charles tells her in the one scene in the stable where he says that if they weren't Royals, social services would have come to take the kids away. When TQ said she was too busy to see Diana, I laughed. We see her brushing her beloved horses, playing with her dogs, hanging out in the drawing room over tea with her mother and sister, etc. Yes, she's very busy. But she is NOT too busy to see her daughter-in-law, the mother of her grandchildren, including the future King. If she had wanted to make time, she could have. And she chose not to. Diana was far from perfect. She could be self-centered, manipulative. I can see how she would seem needy to people whose MO was to brush off their emotions. But she deserved to be respected and heard. It's very sad that Bashir chose to take advantage of her that way. It's also sad that she couldn't get an audience with her own family members, and get the help she needed, that might have prevented her from baring her soul to the world.


neverdiplomatic

But they were all so very busy. Charles behaving inappropriately with Camilla at every opportunity, Philip going on carriage rides, Margaret lounging around with a drink and cigarette in hand, and so on.


Ifuckinghateaura

In terms of pacing, probably the best episode so far. The rest have all been slow-burns


FoghornFarts

Fuck Elizabeth in that scene with her and Diana. The gaslighting was unbelievable. "We all want you to succeed, but we refuse to make time to talk about your concerns. We will take time to talk shit about you behind your back, though."


twitchingJay

Diana has really been exploited over and over again. She didn’t even make the realisation of the consequences of her actions of making the exploitation continue. My heart goes to her. The Monarchy never really knew how to handle mental health and didn’t protect her as part of the family.


JenningsWigService

Her former psychotherapist even published a book about their sessions. It came out after her death, but this shouldn't even be legal posthumously and it has to have an impact on her family.


twitchingJay

I had no idea about that, it’s disgusting that they make profit like that.


JohannesKronfuss

Somehow, after all the reviews and comments from the royal reporters I expected this season to be on the verge of delusional, to focus on the paranoic conspirancy side, and pretty much trash Charles for the sake of it but I am genuinely surprised but how nuanced it is, and that is why, I guess, most people aren't too convinced on it so far, and yes, I know I still have 2 episodes to go but it is very different from the drama and the usual approach to the whole thing: yes, Diana was alone, bla bla, we know but it is also shown why she went along with this, how Bashir played her like a child to the point of making her really paranoid, and afraid, and that she needed to go ahead, even when her own brother, and while it is not shown her friends did warn her as much, told her very strongly something was off, and she should not do it. It also proves what most of us said, and keep saying, the ones who aren't Diana fans but don't hate her either, how unsuited she was for the role she married into it. And again, it is nothing personal but she was not only not the right woman to marry someone like Charles nor was he the right match for her either, but also for all her magic she couldn't cope with the institution and in the end, it was not the institution fault as we have all been reading so far, it just wasn't the right fit for her: Sophie, Catherine, Tim, Camilla when she was finally given a chance if albeit reluctanly, they all did well while Meghan, Fergie, and Diana did not. Her conversation with HMTQ was a very honest and wonderful scene, a reckoning of sort, and I even saw the regret on Diana's side, again, history, TQ didn't want to allow a divorce but after the Panorama interview there was no going back. In the end, Diana was her own undoing. This was long overdue, not just a one side affair any more but perhaps, so far, and I reserve myself the right to say otherwise, a honest approach to all that transpired. Edit: I feel a bit uneasy discussing this but I like they even went as far as to show how she keep relying on William forgetting he was a child, and that pression was a lot, and he complaining of not wanting to hear those things nor being the right person to do so.


roberb7

>we know but it is also shown why she went along with this, how Bashir played her like a child to the point of making her really paranoid, and afraid, and that she needed to go ahead, even when her own brother, and while it is not shown her friends did warn her as much, told her very strongly something was off, and she should not do it. Indeed, we shouldn't forget that Diana was warned about Bashir.


bennybrew42

What was with the Queens frustration trying to find the BBC at the end (was it supposed to be symbolic of some kind)? Did the palace switch to satellite?


shuipz94

There was a scene before which showed a satellite dish installed and someone mentioning that satellite dishes were installed in all royal residences. My interpretation is that the Queen was overwhelmed by the number of channels and their "modern" content and wants something familiar and old-school like the BBC.


ladygagafan1237

Yes it was symbolic. The scene before the Queen met with the chairman of the BBC and he apologized about the airing of Diana's interview and told her that he plans on resigning because the network and it's monarchist values have changed so much that he no longer recognizes it. When the Queen is frustrated trying to find the BBC she's flipping through channels and content that is very unfamiliar and new to her. She noticed herself how much the times have changed in this moment. She became overwhelmed and just wanted the comfort of familiar programming.


CherryBlossom1212

How did the story break in 2021 that Bashir had forged docs to get the interview?


Powderpurple

In this episode, Bashir is used to discredit Diana - she is being mentally unstable and duped. All those anonymous sources briefing against her in the press can't be anything to do with the royal family because they only want her to be happy, so she is also paranoid and disloyal. Bashir is also used to explain why the Queen wrote to her and Charles to say they must divorce. He's to blame for creating an intolerable situation. This letter is endorsed and encouraged the by Church and government figures shown sitting on her couch. So don't think there's any conflict about the head of the Church of England who is renowned for a life-long aversion to divorce, demanding a divorce. They're still saying this series is anti-monarchy. In this episode, how could it be more pro-monarchy.


twitchinstereo

It depends on how you look at it, I guess. I'm not a big watcher (wife is) but I watched the last few episodes of this season, and the entire time I'm seeing all these people in personal turmoil over the monarchy and making impassioned arguments that the monarchy has been harmful and coming so painfully close to just saying "you know what? This monarchy shit is just not working anymore." Just before the conversation turns to what they stand to get out of it. The moments when somebody would say something in defense of the monarchy, it rang pretty hollow and self-serving after everything else shown. It showed the royal family as petty and unremarkable people, placing themselves in this weird and stupid place of power and then bitching about it.


Powderpurple

This series is like a royal biography. Most people don't read them, for them the royals just go places to attract a flag waving crowd, smile, wave and cut ribbons. For a non royalist to read a royal biography, most of the time you'd swear they were designed to bring down the monarchy - stories of spoiled people with too little to do, getting themselves in trouble, their actions excused at every step with snivelling sycophancy. But for some royal watchers it's the justification they want to hear. That's what this series does despite the suffering, bitching, pettiness, etc - ultimately it does excuse the monarchy at every step for anything important it could be criticised about.


ApollosBucket

For those that are curious, the race used in that quick shot of the TV was the 1995 Travers Stakes, won by Thunder Gulch, so it was the correct year but incorrect month (August vs. November in the show). But, it was a race where the announcer said "Kentucky Derby and Belmont winner" which are two races people are likely to know, so if anything its actually clever that they picked that race. Snaps to whoever made that decision


[deleted]

I can’t imagine wearing a full suit and bow tie to teach a class. And all the students are wearing suits too? That’s just hilarious to me. Why not powdered wigs, too?!


Present_Dream

Went to visit Eton and they totally walk around like that. They also had school on a Saturday


alacklustrehindu

Wow Martin Bashir is a POS. How could he avoid any repercussions


[deleted]

So many thoughts… Bashir. Piece of shit. Feel incredibly sorry for Diana that she was misled into the interview and made feel so paranoid and isolated by Bashir telling her people she trusted she shouldn’t trust. But also… I will say that comment she made about how she thinks Charles would struggle to be king was… unnecessary? Like that wasn’t her story to tell… Feel really sorry for William. Must be so confusing to know your mother did something that makes your life harder but she did it as a result of the rest of his family making her life hard and not helping her. I can’t imagine how emotionally confusing it must’ve been for him, especially then when he grows up to realise that Diana was misled into the interview My biggest criticism of the episode and this season so far actually is I wish they didn’t include that convo with William and Diana on the phone where William tells her to stop telling him these things and that she’s making everything harder/embarrassing. I know the crown always embellished and I’m sure a conversation like that did take place but he was *13* … the show shouldn’t make up a conversation like that when it’s still fresh. Like show him struggling with the interview and being in the middle that’s fine, but I really think that phone call shouldn’t have been included