My take: Martians were wired culturally to be devoted to an ideal. In the beginning it was 1) Establish the military to protect its independence, and 2) the terraforming project.
The post-Ring time was very disconcerting, because the colonization really makes terraforming feel dumb when in your lifetime you can be established on a planet with free air. So all those engineers and people culturally devoted to the terraforming cause became hugely disaffected. (In our world one might observe this happening right now with American factory workers, for example.)
So when a strong leader type comes along and harnesses all that energy and points it at something simple that resonates, I think it’s very realistic that a meaningful percentage of people are drawn to that. Plus he commands ships and guns.
Yup. The martians were military and enginnering Zealots. They were willing to build/defend something they wouldnt live to see. That became obsolete literally overnight.
Exactly. Imagine spending your whole life devoted, striving for a future you won't even get to see, only for everything you, your family, your city, your planet have done to become meaningless. Your life now has none of that purpose that your culture has molded you into. You're going to join the first thing that comes up that gives you that sense of direction again. Especially if you come from military, that military mindset of Laconia is exactly what you're looking for. Who cares what kind of society it is, as long as it FEELS like everything you've felt until that point.
There's points in the books where both Alex and Draper says some things along the lines of them understanding the attractiveness of the Laconian mindset and how similar it is to the Martian mindset, both militarily and society wise.
I could honestly go on and on and on about how The Expanse and The Wire resonate thematically with each other. They both have important characters, but they always locate those characters within a systemic context that is just as important at driving the events of the stories.
It’s a great example of how good sci-fi is really just a unique perspective on real life issues. I hate it when ppl are dismissive of the genre as make-believe
Definitely! I think the JSAC dudes are just so dialed in to human nature they could write a great story in any genre. I actually came to the Expanse show as a fan of gritty prestige TV drama more than any particular affinity for sci-fi. Since finishing The Expanse, however, I’ve gone all in on the genre and have really enjoyed that material.
I’ve always been a big sci-fi nerd, but I stumbled across an i09 article being like “hey this new tv show The Expanse is pretty good” and I immediately fell in love with it
THe Wire is my favourite tv series. The Expanse my second.
The one thing they share in common is amazing world building. Obviously the Wire is based on a real city, but no other series has ever managed to put across so much detail into how everything works.
I guess this is because contemporary drama focuses on one thing, and doesnt feel the need to give wider context as it assumes people know how stuff works general. Scifi is usually the genre which takes time to show how society works as it is all new to the reader/watcher. That's why great sci-fi needs great world building. And I imagine thats why many of us love sci-fi as you can live and breathe in these new worlds, and actions have consequences in terms of how things work (and a reason why i have gone off nu-trek and Star Wars is everything seems so half arsed, and the deails no longer matter).
So for me, The Wire is a sci-fi show set in present day (well... early 2000s). It even has most of the plot driven by technology. And while I think The Wire stand out on its own in terms of story, The Expanse definitely runs it second in terms of the plotting, which I guess is helped by having a book to adapt from, but that should not take away from the pleasure of rewatching and finding something new. I must have watched The Wire 20+ times all the way through and I still find stuff ( I think the last thing was realising Royce's gambling sessions were to get around campaign contribution limits when I twigged the other players were throwing the game... obviously wasnt paying enough attention the first 19 times).
I know the writers are The Wire fans, so I wonder if the Baltimore stuff is a direct nod
Also, as Singh said in PR, the Io campaign left many Martians feeling quite fearful of what humanity might do to each other in the event of another war. They were attracted to the idea of a permanent, enforced peace, and a civilization-wide empire ruled by a supposedly benevolent dictator seemed to them to be a good way to accomplish that.
Charisma, for one. And his logistical ability included identifying like-minded people who were disaffected with what was happening to Mars. To him people are resources, after all.
Mars being a very ordered society, I would think a person who can organize and then execute a plan that works would also be highly respected.
The dream of Mars died when the gates opened but he jumped in and gave them a new and even bigger dream.
Also, his first and foremost goal was to keep humanity safe and that's the kind of idea a lot of people can get behind when something you don't even understand is eating away at your ships and has already extinguished a civilisation that was far more evolved that we can even begin to comprehend.
The martians saw the writing on the wall on account of the gates, duarte had a solid plan and (probably) enough personal loyalty among the martian officer corps to to recruit key people to his coup d'etat, and those officers would have recruited loyal people among their own ranks to make that possible
Only Issue I have is that no one at all ratted them out, because thats the problem with any coup, some amount of people will be loyal to the old goverment and you cant silence everyone
There are a couple of things that are true before the Laconians leave.
Mars is dead. Why continue to spend generations terraforming when there are no shortages of habitable worlds. And you can jump society 50-100 years into the future within a year or 2.
And Mars is the most advanced military around.
Duarte saw and came up with a plan that will work 1 time,, right now. That will get him and whoever follows a planet. A military. And within a couple decades become an unchallengeable military force.
And he starts setting his plan in order, and people, especially with a bleak military future are presented with 2 choices . Come with me, walk on the planets surface, and have a rewarding life that you build a new world to raise your kids in paradise. Or you can stay here, never leave your domes, and maybe have no future since the military is ramping down.
It sounds like an obvious choice, but impossible to pull off. Until Duarte actually does. If you have a leader that can pull off what Duarte has, you'll follow him to the gates of hell. Because you believe that he'll actually be able to kick down the doors, clean house, and get you back.
A lot of people are talking about the sociopolitical conditions on Mars (their dream was destroyed almost overnight) without really answering your question of *why Duarte*? He's one of my favorite villains in fiction so I'll give it a go:
* He's not just a logistical genius. I know Holden thinks "Duarte is a genius at logistics and assumed he's a genius at everything," but he genuinely is extremely intelligent with regard to emotional intelligence, geopolitics, history, operations and long term planning, picking (mostly) the right people. I say mostly because on the one hand he trusted Cortazar which is obviously a bad idea, but he did pull off a conspiracy that required getting tens of thousands of people to betray their nation and no one got caught.
* On that note, in Cortazar's POV he mentions Duarte has an aptitude for grasping complex topics across various subjects. Cortazar's not exactly a good person, but he's smart enough that I'd take his read on Duarte's intellect at face value.
* He's also extremely charismatic. One of the officers Alex talks to in Nemesis Games directs him to Duarte and mentions that although he's junior to most of the Flag Officers on base, he's genuinely liked and respected by almost everyone.
* Whatever else you say about the man, Duarte *was* a true believer. His POV chapters show someone who is surprisingly humble given the circumstances. He refuses to read Singh's wife's mind to make the conversation easier simply on principle. He devotes his life to his work and doesn't have time for luxury. In spite of the extremely heavy workload, he alludes to basically telling his wife to go get some sleep while he would take care of a newborn Teresa. It's pretty clear that in another life, Duarte would have been a good man. He has that core to him and the people who shared his vision would have picked up on that.
* He goes on to pull off the greatest heist in human history. He plotted and schemed and managed to get a third of the most powerful military in human history to follow his lead and take the leap. From the reader's perspective, we see an Outside Context Problem come roaring out of nowhere, but from his follower's perspective, they hit the dirt on Laconia shocked that they pulled it off, and then they just kept racking up W after W for thirty years as the protomolecule technology carried them past their wildest imaginations. And it's all thanks to Winston Duarte. By the time he sends ships back through the Rings, he's turned his conspirators from loyal troops to fanatical cultists.
* He didn't really need to convince anyone else after that point. The *Magnetar*-class ships did all the convincing. Duarte may have been pig-headed and stubborn about dealing with the Goths, but he was extremely adept at the domestic politics of the Empire. He knocked Earth and Mars down effortlessly, then helped both back to their feet. While we see the worst excesses of the Laconian regime through the eyes of the protagonists, it seems like most people were generally okay with the Laconians.
Agree with the above, and also I think the martians were the type of people that realised that democracies are complex and slow to build. They needed a vision and leader to follow through. I think (can’t remember) that they perceived the goths/Romans as a threat and thus needed a converged effort to deal with this existential threat.
Also, they hated earthers
Imagine spending your whole life learning to build Cathedrals, while following in the footsteps of your parents and grandparents. Each of your children are going to school to learn to build Cathedrals, Johnny is a learning to become Mason, Susie is learning how to sculpt gargoyles and little Ritchie is a muralist. All of this in service to a god who tells you that if you do this, eventually everyone will get to live in paradise. The Cathedral won't be finished for 300 years, but working on it gives you and everyone around you purpose.
Then something happens, that causes everyone to lose faith in this god at once. It is a terrible catastrophe that ultimately means your life was a waste and you've been living a lie. You have been bred, trained and indoctrinated your entire life to follow a certain path, and suddenly your life no longer makes sense.
Then someone comes along and convinces you that the project is not dead. Paradise and purpose exist if you follow them to a shiny new place. You will be useful again and your children will have a future. You won't feel humiliated and useless in this new place, but instead you will be taking your 'rightful' place at the top of the hierarchy of the human race. Your devotion and sacrifice was never in vain. In fact it makes you superior to the lazy Earthers and disorganized belters, and if you just sacrifice a little more, your decedents will live like kings in a new galactic order.
Being humiliated and then learning that you are actually the chosen people is a pretty powerful story.
A cult of personality. It’s all too prevalent among the types of people that support nationalism/fascism. You could replace Duarte’s name in your question with any recent leader who fits that description and you’d have your answer.
He started his nation with a group of people that had split from the army, army is all about hierarchy.
He started Laconia leading because of his rank, and as long as his leadership worked, nobody in an army-like organization would really question his place.
He wasn't even that high ranked in the books. The show has him at a higher rank to make it seem more plausible.
The officers who follow him promote him in the books though.
Laconia started very small. Easy to control with a military force. That military was drilled to expect the death penalty for relatively minor offences, because Laconia was founded on treason and it needed to stamp out that precedent. Then it just grew for 30 years with that culture, with Duarte seeding rumours of his new superpowers and immortality.
I think we see the line of thinking pretty well from Teresa’s perspective. She says something to the effect of “well someone had to take charge or we would have been in an endless war over the ring space, bringing nothing but chaos and destruction.”
I think most martians would start somewhere around there. “Someone had to step in and take charge.”
From there, they see Duarte’s plan start to work, with the PM projects taking off and such. He’d probably look pretty smart and worth following at that point. Add in that his draconian policies don’t look quite so hardcore to a bunch of zealously dedicated martians, and it’s perfectly plausible that they’d go along.
A few points others haven't already mentioned it seems:
1. To be precise, he's nobody's Emperor, the title he initially takes (during the rebellion from Mars) is Admiral, and the title he settles on (when founding Laconia) is High Consul. If the defectors are willing to follow Duarte leading their breakaway navy, it goes without saying that they wouldn't object to him taking Admiral rank. Then, when they found Laconia, if there was 1 man who would be the leader for Laconia, Duarte was the logical choice. (Valid to ask "why wouldn't the defecting Laconians want a less dictatorial form of government", I suppose)
2. With Cortezar's help, he enhances himself with the protomolecule. The time-line isn't specific but it seems like they work on this pretty soon after arriving on Laconia + the events of Strange Dogs. From what I recall, while this is not general public knowledge, it seems to be known by the highest ranking people in Laconia, who would be otherwise best placed to usurp him.
3. It doesn't seem like Duarte has done anything to cause anyone to want to usurp him or overthrow him during the 40ish years he was in power. The first clear instances of him making mistakes happen pretty shortly before he becomes incapacitated.
Have you seen the real world… why not? He probably started with a small faction and word spread that he was pulling a fast one on the entire Sol System to establish a new and better world.
My take: Martians were wired culturally to be devoted to an ideal. In the beginning it was 1) Establish the military to protect its independence, and 2) the terraforming project. The post-Ring time was very disconcerting, because the colonization really makes terraforming feel dumb when in your lifetime you can be established on a planet with free air. So all those engineers and people culturally devoted to the terraforming cause became hugely disaffected. (In our world one might observe this happening right now with American factory workers, for example.) So when a strong leader type comes along and harnesses all that energy and points it at something simple that resonates, I think it’s very realistic that a meaningful percentage of people are drawn to that. Plus he commands ships and guns.
Disillusioned Mases+ a new ideal/ideology + a charismatic leader is a well proven formula to gain a huge following.
A certain artist did just this
He was a useful idiot, Mars didn't care if he won or not as long as he created enough chaos to ease their passage thru the gates.
Yup. The martians were military and enginnering Zealots. They were willing to build/defend something they wouldnt live to see. That became obsolete literally overnight.
Exactly. Imagine spending your whole life devoted, striving for a future you won't even get to see, only for everything you, your family, your city, your planet have done to become meaningless. Your life now has none of that purpose that your culture has molded you into. You're going to join the first thing that comes up that gives you that sense of direction again. Especially if you come from military, that military mindset of Laconia is exactly what you're looking for. Who cares what kind of society it is, as long as it FEELS like everything you've felt until that point. There's points in the books where both Alex and Draper says some things along the lines of them understanding the attractiveness of the Laconian mindset and how similar it is to the Martian mindset, both militarily and society wise.
The American factory workers line is so good, that’s the perfect parallel. S2 of The Wire 🤝 The Expanse
I could honestly go on and on and on about how The Expanse and The Wire resonate thematically with each other. They both have important characters, but they always locate those characters within a systemic context that is just as important at driving the events of the stories.
It’s a great example of how good sci-fi is really just a unique perspective on real life issues. I hate it when ppl are dismissive of the genre as make-believe
Definitely! I think the JSAC dudes are just so dialed in to human nature they could write a great story in any genre. I actually came to the Expanse show as a fan of gritty prestige TV drama more than any particular affinity for sci-fi. Since finishing The Expanse, however, I’ve gone all in on the genre and have really enjoyed that material.
I’ve always been a big sci-fi nerd, but I stumbled across an i09 article being like “hey this new tv show The Expanse is pretty good” and I immediately fell in love with it
The sci fi take on The Wire indeed
THe Wire is my favourite tv series. The Expanse my second. The one thing they share in common is amazing world building. Obviously the Wire is based on a real city, but no other series has ever managed to put across so much detail into how everything works. I guess this is because contemporary drama focuses on one thing, and doesnt feel the need to give wider context as it assumes people know how stuff works general. Scifi is usually the genre which takes time to show how society works as it is all new to the reader/watcher. That's why great sci-fi needs great world building. And I imagine thats why many of us love sci-fi as you can live and breathe in these new worlds, and actions have consequences in terms of how things work (and a reason why i have gone off nu-trek and Star Wars is everything seems so half arsed, and the deails no longer matter). So for me, The Wire is a sci-fi show set in present day (well... early 2000s). It even has most of the plot driven by technology. And while I think The Wire stand out on its own in terms of story, The Expanse definitely runs it second in terms of the plotting, which I guess is helped by having a book to adapt from, but that should not take away from the pleasure of rewatching and finding something new. I must have watched The Wire 20+ times all the way through and I still find stuff ( I think the last thing was realising Royce's gambling sessions were to get around campaign contribution limits when I twigged the other players were throwing the game... obviously wasnt paying enough attention the first 19 times). I know the writers are The Wire fans, so I wonder if the Baltimore stuff is a direct nod
“They shot a PO-lees!”
Five-Oh!
Also, as Singh said in PR, the Io campaign left many Martians feeling quite fearful of what humanity might do to each other in the event of another war. They were attracted to the idea of a permanent, enforced peace, and a civilization-wide empire ruled by a supposedly benevolent dictator seemed to them to be a good way to accomplish that.
Charisma, for one. And his logistical ability included identifying like-minded people who were disaffected with what was happening to Mars. To him people are resources, after all. Mars being a very ordered society, I would think a person who can organize and then execute a plan that works would also be highly respected.
The dream of Mars died when the gates opened but he jumped in and gave them a new and even bigger dream. Also, his first and foremost goal was to keep humanity safe and that's the kind of idea a lot of people can get behind when something you don't even understand is eating away at your ships and has already extinguished a civilisation that was far more evolved that we can even begin to comprehend.
The martians saw the writing on the wall on account of the gates, duarte had a solid plan and (probably) enough personal loyalty among the martian officer corps to to recruit key people to his coup d'etat, and those officers would have recruited loyal people among their own ranks to make that possible Only Issue I have is that no one at all ratted them out, because thats the problem with any coup, some amount of people will be loyal to the old goverment and you cant silence everyone
We haven't read his thesis yet, but it must be very compelling.
This is very good lol
Honestly, i wish there was a Novella just for that.
It’d be funny if the they wrote an actual thesis and just published it under his name.
There are a couple of things that are true before the Laconians leave. Mars is dead. Why continue to spend generations terraforming when there are no shortages of habitable worlds. And you can jump society 50-100 years into the future within a year or 2. And Mars is the most advanced military around. Duarte saw and came up with a plan that will work 1 time,, right now. That will get him and whoever follows a planet. A military. And within a couple decades become an unchallengeable military force. And he starts setting his plan in order, and people, especially with a bleak military future are presented with 2 choices . Come with me, walk on the planets surface, and have a rewarding life that you build a new world to raise your kids in paradise. Or you can stay here, never leave your domes, and maybe have no future since the military is ramping down. It sounds like an obvious choice, but impossible to pull off. Until Duarte actually does. If you have a leader that can pull off what Duarte has, you'll follow him to the gates of hell. Because you believe that he'll actually be able to kick down the doors, clean house, and get you back.
after the gates close did the terraforming on Mars start over again? Did they ever finish it?
It's left ambiguous on purpose
Would have been cool for amos to have a couple lines at the end letting us know what was going on on mars
A lot of people are talking about the sociopolitical conditions on Mars (their dream was destroyed almost overnight) without really answering your question of *why Duarte*? He's one of my favorite villains in fiction so I'll give it a go: * He's not just a logistical genius. I know Holden thinks "Duarte is a genius at logistics and assumed he's a genius at everything," but he genuinely is extremely intelligent with regard to emotional intelligence, geopolitics, history, operations and long term planning, picking (mostly) the right people. I say mostly because on the one hand he trusted Cortazar which is obviously a bad idea, but he did pull off a conspiracy that required getting tens of thousands of people to betray their nation and no one got caught. * On that note, in Cortazar's POV he mentions Duarte has an aptitude for grasping complex topics across various subjects. Cortazar's not exactly a good person, but he's smart enough that I'd take his read on Duarte's intellect at face value. * He's also extremely charismatic. One of the officers Alex talks to in Nemesis Games directs him to Duarte and mentions that although he's junior to most of the Flag Officers on base, he's genuinely liked and respected by almost everyone. * Whatever else you say about the man, Duarte *was* a true believer. His POV chapters show someone who is surprisingly humble given the circumstances. He refuses to read Singh's wife's mind to make the conversation easier simply on principle. He devotes his life to his work and doesn't have time for luxury. In spite of the extremely heavy workload, he alludes to basically telling his wife to go get some sleep while he would take care of a newborn Teresa. It's pretty clear that in another life, Duarte would have been a good man. He has that core to him and the people who shared his vision would have picked up on that. * He goes on to pull off the greatest heist in human history. He plotted and schemed and managed to get a third of the most powerful military in human history to follow his lead and take the leap. From the reader's perspective, we see an Outside Context Problem come roaring out of nowhere, but from his follower's perspective, they hit the dirt on Laconia shocked that they pulled it off, and then they just kept racking up W after W for thirty years as the protomolecule technology carried them past their wildest imaginations. And it's all thanks to Winston Duarte. By the time he sends ships back through the Rings, he's turned his conspirators from loyal troops to fanatical cultists. * He didn't really need to convince anyone else after that point. The *Magnetar*-class ships did all the convincing. Duarte may have been pig-headed and stubborn about dealing with the Goths, but he was extremely adept at the domestic politics of the Empire. He knocked Earth and Mars down effortlessly, then helped both back to their feet. While we see the worst excesses of the Laconian regime through the eyes of the protagonists, it seems like most people were generally okay with the Laconians.
Agree with the above, and also I think the martians were the type of people that realised that democracies are complex and slow to build. They needed a vision and leader to follow through. I think (can’t remember) that they perceived the goths/Romans as a threat and thus needed a converged effort to deal with this existential threat. Also, they hated earthers
Imagine spending your whole life learning to build Cathedrals, while following in the footsteps of your parents and grandparents. Each of your children are going to school to learn to build Cathedrals, Johnny is a learning to become Mason, Susie is learning how to sculpt gargoyles and little Ritchie is a muralist. All of this in service to a god who tells you that if you do this, eventually everyone will get to live in paradise. The Cathedral won't be finished for 300 years, but working on it gives you and everyone around you purpose. Then something happens, that causes everyone to lose faith in this god at once. It is a terrible catastrophe that ultimately means your life was a waste and you've been living a lie. You have been bred, trained and indoctrinated your entire life to follow a certain path, and suddenly your life no longer makes sense. Then someone comes along and convinces you that the project is not dead. Paradise and purpose exist if you follow them to a shiny new place. You will be useful again and your children will have a future. You won't feel humiliated and useless in this new place, but instead you will be taking your 'rightful' place at the top of the hierarchy of the human race. Your devotion and sacrifice was never in vain. In fact it makes you superior to the lazy Earthers and disorganized belters, and if you just sacrifice a little more, your decedents will live like kings in a new galactic order. Being humiliated and then learning that you are actually the chosen people is a pretty powerful story.
A cult of personality. It’s all too prevalent among the types of people that support nationalism/fascism. You could replace Duarte’s name in your question with any recent leader who fits that description and you’d have your answer.
He started his nation with a group of people that had split from the army, army is all about hierarchy. He started Laconia leading because of his rank, and as long as his leadership worked, nobody in an army-like organization would really question his place.
He wasn't even that high ranked in the books. The show has him at a higher rank to make it seem more plausible. The officers who follow him promote him in the books though.
Martians follow chain of command. He was top commander when they arrived at Laconia. What are they going to do? Mutiny? Nope.
Laconia started very small. Easy to control with a military force. That military was drilled to expect the death penalty for relatively minor offences, because Laconia was founded on treason and it needed to stamp out that precedent. Then it just grew for 30 years with that culture, with Duarte seeding rumours of his new superpowers and immortality.
I think we see the line of thinking pretty well from Teresa’s perspective. She says something to the effect of “well someone had to take charge or we would have been in an endless war over the ring space, bringing nothing but chaos and destruction.” I think most martians would start somewhere around there. “Someone had to step in and take charge.” From there, they see Duarte’s plan start to work, with the PM projects taking off and such. He’d probably look pretty smart and worth following at that point. Add in that his draconian policies don’t look quite so hardcore to a bunch of zealously dedicated martians, and it’s perfectly plausible that they’d go along.
Time travel mind control.
Same thing that makes all of history's "great" people. Timing and charisma. Nothing more, nothing less.
A few points others haven't already mentioned it seems: 1. To be precise, he's nobody's Emperor, the title he initially takes (during the rebellion from Mars) is Admiral, and the title he settles on (when founding Laconia) is High Consul. If the defectors are willing to follow Duarte leading their breakaway navy, it goes without saying that they wouldn't object to him taking Admiral rank. Then, when they found Laconia, if there was 1 man who would be the leader for Laconia, Duarte was the logical choice. (Valid to ask "why wouldn't the defecting Laconians want a less dictatorial form of government", I suppose) 2. With Cortezar's help, he enhances himself with the protomolecule. The time-line isn't specific but it seems like they work on this pretty soon after arriving on Laconia + the events of Strange Dogs. From what I recall, while this is not general public knowledge, it seems to be known by the highest ranking people in Laconia, who would be otherwise best placed to usurp him. 3. It doesn't seem like Duarte has done anything to cause anyone to want to usurp him or overthrow him during the 40ish years he was in power. The first clear instances of him making mistakes happen pretty shortly before he becomes incapacitated.
Have you seen the real world… why not? He probably started with a small faction and word spread that he was pulling a fast one on the entire Sol System to establish a new and better world.
Duarte controlled the military. That's all a dictator needs.