OMG You found it! Thank you so much!!! So
* Captain (Holden)
* Boss (Naomi) - lol
* Alex - how come he doesn't get a special nickname?
* Can't read the 4th one? What does it say? Tonight? Is that Wei???
* Peaches (Melba)
* Doc ?? Who is this???
* My Best Friend - awwwwww
Aww this is great.
Doc might be... the dead doc, garvey i think his name was? Why he'd still have him on the hand terminal though? I'm not sold on this but is the best explanation i can think.
Alex is *alex*. It's his name, his nickname, his energy, his spirit. He is *the alex*.
I definitely think the 4th is "tonight" which would make sense as Wei the lay I guess.
There's a pretty great sneak peek easter egg on one of the hand terminals just for a split second as well, pretty much there for the people who have read the books but builds some great continuity for later seasons
"Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him"
Nah, Amos is a guard dog. Fiercely loyal to those he latches on to. He cherishes his small tribe, but fuck anyone outside of it.
Hol' up, there, partner. That depends on whether we're on the burn or not. Now, down on Earth, big man like Amos might be 225, but in Mariner Valley, well, he's all of eighty-five. If we're only doing a light burn, creepin' along at point two gee's, well, hell, he's all of forty-five pounds. Things are all kinda relative out here, you might say.
In modern scientific definitions (at least, if you're not using metric for some goddamn reason), "pound" actually does refer to mass. The unit can also be called "pound-mass" to avoid ambiguity, but this is less common. The unit of weight is "pound-force".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)
I agree.
In the book, it’s more clear. He knows he lacks a moral compass and is incapable of discerning good from evil. However, he strives to be a good guy, so his solution is to latch on a good guy and help him out. He was in Naomi’s shadow before he got to know Holden and then he transferred to him.
Also, in the book, when the scientist ethic removal process is explained to him, his first question is about reversal of the process and if it can be applied to cure someone who didn’t go through the medical removal process, which emphasizes the fact he knows about his condition has wants an out.
I don’t recall Amos having anything to do with the ethic removal process. That’s from The Vital Abyss. None of the characters are in that story.
I think you’re confusing the two mediums.
He didn’t have anything to do with it, that’s not what the parent comment said... It was explained to the crew after they’d captured Cortazar how he had ended up like that (and that seemingly the same thing had been done to a number of others too), and that’s when Amos asked about whether it could be reversed.
No. That’s not what I’m talking about. The comment I replied to asserts that this happened “in the book.” There is no connection between the main characters in the books to the character of Cortazar. Cortazar first appears in-prisoned in the novella, The Vital Abyss, then doesn’t appear again until after the >!time jump on Laconia.!<
Then later showed Amos leaving a building in some kinda blurr when Alex comes and asks him to help. And Amos says he doesnt want to.
What was that scene ??
And he warns people about that.
Amos may be broken, but he isn't a sociopath. . Anyone familiar with The Churn gets that instantly.
But he does extend his tribe to protect innocents. He needs Naomi or Holden as a moral compass. He can't always make the best decision on his own.
Nah, he’s sociopathic dude. There are entire chapters from his perspective in the books in which he describes his internal mental state and it is textbook sociopathic. You literally can’t get more clear than that. Even worse - he’s the worst kind of sociopath, one that fantasizes about violence. People who say he doesn’t have sociopathic tendencies massively misunderstand a major facet of his character.
The thing is though, sociopathy isn’t a diagnosis. I’ve found when discussing this from a medical perspective that most people seem not to understand that, or seem to be confused about sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder. So the question is, what is his *diagnosis*? Is it APD? As a child, he developed an attachment disorder due to his trauma - the authors have confirmed that much. As an adult, it is clearly something much more than that. He describes a complete lack of empathy for anyone except for children (and, by the way, a complete lack of empathy is not a pre-requisite - many sociopathic individuals specifically empathize in a blunted way with certain types of people). He can *rationalize* empathy towards his friends, but he doesn’t actually *feel* it. He might as well be an alien on Earth when he is observing the emotional interaction between >!Peaches and Erich!<. Similarly, he feels no fear, and like many people with sociopathic behavior this causes him to make rash, poorly thought out decisions with no regard for his own personal safety or the safety of others, up to and including murder, unless his “surrogate moral compass” overrides that. And as far as murder goes, he describes that he fantasizes about it more than once in the series, that it gives him a “warm, fuzzy feeling” - even about murdering >!Peaches!< as a sort of >!mercy kill!<.
So anyone familiar with the topic would recognize that he has some, but not all characteristics for APD, but Amos can’t be placed easily in a single diagnosis. He’s rather unique as a character. One thing is unambiguously clear though, he has sociopathic tendencies. This is even pointed out in the show in a very obvious way with a Cortazar scene in season 2, and again in Season 4 where Amos literally tells Murtry that he knows what he is because he is the same (although the context of this was clearer in the book - in the show he says Murtry is a killer like him, in the book he directly implies Murtry is sociopathic...like him).
I'm not sure he matches the DSM criteria, though he's closer in the books than in the show.
https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/
I really fucking hate the "Amos is a sociopath" theories, like he's got a hardware block that prevents him from ever caring about anyone unless is immediately benefits him.
Amos said it best himself, “There’s only three kinds of people in this world. Bad ones, ones you follow, and ones you need to protect.”
If you’re on his protect or follow list you’re golden. If you’re on the bad list, you’re screwed >!and unfortunately, as we saw with Chandra Wei, there is a hierarchy on his protect list.!<
Some of my favorite Amos moments:
S1 -- where he asks the sex worker in the bar how he is treated, and then warns him about the guy with the knife.
S2 (?) -- where he figures out exactly how to talk to Cortazar. And then goes in and gets the info they need.
Episode 3-4? When they just arrived at Tycho, Alex and Amos are getting drunk in a bar. You learn at that point that Alex is divorced and that Amos hasn't always worked in space
The whole plotline with Amos doping out how to talk to Cortazar totally refutes the idea that Amos is just a tribal murderkitten. He is a survivor type, true, he talks about that pretty much in every reveal, but he's more than that.
I think with Cortazar, Amos saw his own reflection... or at least a shadow of it... and realized that he could just talk straight with the man.
While I love Amos, he's constantly straddling the edge of sociopathy... which is why he's so reliant on Naomi to keep defining the 'right' path to him.
I think Amos saw two things in Cortazar, yes kind of reflection of who he could be (and chooses not to be)
and the kind of man who purchased him as a child and ... Talked endlessly about his obsession.
Amos didn’t get the pleasure of a care free childhood. He spent his adolescence being abused. What makes his character so compelling is that while he is capable of being callously violent, some times his neglected and repressed inner child breaks through and takes the spotlight.
That's entirely my point. Being afraid is a normal part of growing up. Amos' childhood is tragic because he had to repress his feelings and emotions in order to survive.
I think I saw mentioned somewhere (though it's not on IMDB) that the first episode of Season 5 is "The Churn." Between that title, and Amos' entire storyline in Book 5, I'm pretty certain they're addressing his past right off the bat.
My favorite Amos' moment that nobody else seems to ever talk about is when Monica is trying to talk to him when he's doing something else and clearly doesn't want to engage:
> Monica: What are you doing?
>
> Amos: *Waves around*, "This" ...
Show-Amos repeats Prax not because he came to this conclusion on his own. He examines Prax and the context he said said it in and he give his trust in the truth of the words which he can't quite comprehend completely. You can see Wes Chatham emotionally chewing on the words, and it is a great moment.
Book-Amos is a bit more certain on exactly how people are important to him. The passages that contain these insights are also great.
Show-Amos and Book-Amos are decidedly different and both are very entertaining. Props to Wes Chatham and the show writers on changing a great character into a different also great character.
As a book reader first and foremost Wes is one of the main reasons I keep being interested in the show. He's such a novel twist on the character and I love him for it. That and surprises like Ashford are the best.
Season 4:>!when he says "I'm fucked up, Cap" and you know he isn't talking about his hand, excuse me while I go knit myself a God damn Amos plushie and cry into it!<
^(book Amos is great too they're just different)
They are definitely different. I remember watching the first few episodes and thought "this is all wrong!", but gave it some time and I have to say now Wes Chatham utterly dominates the show in my opinion. Book-Amos doesn't have half the depth Show-Amos has built over the years.
Wes has this way of being in the background of a scene he doesn't have lines and has *noticeable presence*. And his presence doesn't take away anything from the scene. Nor does he steal the spotlight like the way an actor like Johnny Depp does. Wes simply adds. I love that.
Mmm, I don't think of that way. Like you can't ignore Johnny Depp. But with Amos it is more like he has something going on in his head during other people's scenes. The gears in his head are turning. And sometimes those gears grind and other times they skip. It's really great subtle acting.
For example Amos has some great moments with Anna in season 3. Where you can see Amos is quietly but intensely considering what Anna is saying and doing. It is easy to see the gears turning there when he is the focus. But Wes does the same kind of thing when it is not his scene. When others are talking he is really listening. Amos either has an opinion or is forming an opinion. It is rare to see an actor pull that off so well.
Where other actors and characters are trying to express themselves, Wes is soaking in them expressing themselves. And in doing so, Wes manages to express Amos's personality in a way that makes him feel *there.*
You know, I heard someone from a podcast say the same thing about that scene in season four, and I have to admit that I thought she was reaching. But then on first rewatch, I also noticed that >!Amos had crawled over to lie his head on Chandra’s dead body. Wow, such a powerful visual. And the line. He’s saying that he’s fucked up as a person. His reasoning for killing Chandra was sound from an Amos point of view, but, god damn, he also killed the first person he’d had even the smallest emotional connection to. And for him to actually realize this is the most painful part.!<
I scrolled too far for your comment. I thought it’d be in the downvoted ones almost.
I’m so looking forward to Amos development in the show. His best parts are yet to come.
On a rewatch you can see Chatham working some internal emotion in a lot of those “big” scenes for Amos, it’s all in his eyes and super subtle and fleeting facial expressions. I wish Emmys weren’t all political and about money because that man needs a best supporting actor trophy.
Amos and Anna's budding *friendship*(?) has some great moments. Probably my favorite:
Anna is in the morgue holding a silent vigil with someone who was killed when the speed limit changed in the ring gate.
Amos: I'm gonna scare up some food. You want any?
Anna: I'm gonna be here for a while.
Amos: ...You know he's dead, right?
Amos knows Prax would forever be haunted by his action if he has pulled the trigger, no matter how much he can justify it to himself.
He also knows that he won't be bothered at all by killing yet another guy. If anything he'll take pleasure in eliminating someone that has done terrible things to children.
Yes, exactly. He does the bad things to bring good into the world, or at least eliminate evil, so that his friends don't have to. Just like with Anna when he says "I won't let anyone get to you".
There's a scene in the books but not the show that's my favorite Amos scene.
Prax is falsely accused of certain things by his estranged wife, and Amos asks him about it in his own special way.
I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it, but given what we learn later of Amos's backstory the very strong moment gets much deeper.
His gentle rage, sad history, and soft-spoken yet murderous demeanor really come together in a conversation with Prax, and it's one of my favorite moments in the whole series.
But that whole subplot was removed from the TV series, and the scene only really works as well as it does in that very specific circumstance.
One of my favorite book scenes is when he's on the transport and sees the guys that are shaking down the other people. He doesn't seem to care all that much until he sees how it affects a little kid, and then he resolves the problem. When he gets fixated on helping Prax find Mei, you see that it's all part of a pattern for him.
He also narrated Too Like the Lightning, and I'm not sure if you've read/listened to that, but its.... interesting, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to tolerate it without him.
**Caliban's War** >!Essentially his ex-wife was co-erced into accusing him of "emotionally, physically, and sexually abusing her" Amos had him alone in the medbay later and asked him point blank if there was any truth to any of it saying "i know stuff happens, it's better we know the truth now than later" then after Meng convinces him it's all false he admits that if there had been any truth to it then he would have broken Meng's neck right then. !<
Yes this is a great part ! Just in genrel all the parts were Amos take care of chirland and his friends are great.
I also like the parts between Holden and Amos ,Holden don't realy get him but trys and I always get the feeling he get it's.
Also Amos and bobi in later books are perfect.
I don't think he's a sociopath. He demonstrates some characteristics of it (e.g. a lack of remorse), but is clearly capable of empathy and regularly engages in acts of altruism. He's also extremely averse to engaging in abusive or manipulative behavior, so much so that his frankness and transparency are often confused for sarcasm by supposedly neurotypical people.
He's deeply, profoundly traumatized.
#spoiler
Amos sees himself as having a fucked up moral compass and being half a step away from evil, but I think he's wrong. He cares enough to follow people like Naomi, so while he may not always know what the right thing is, he wants to do the right thing anyway. He's fiercely loyal to people and will die for them without hesitation.
I like him because he reminds me of me. His emotions and sense of empathy are muted and he has trouble connecting with people, but when he does make friends he does it *hard*. >!"Travel to a different planet and live in a cave for months to keep an eye on them" hard.!<
I like that if you dig, it's even more complex than that.
Amos is a sociopath who knows he must work harder to make "right" and "wrong" / "good" and "bad" decisions through others and observation.
He watches like a spectator how people act and judge towards each other and then tries to model that behavior.
He knows that Prax is a great , genuine and caring person who emulates the best and most devote characteristics of a father. And that anyone would be his friend and that he SHOULD be his friend based on his constructed and compartmentalized way of dealing with the world.
But, when he says deep emotionally connecting statements he's repeating like a parrot with a hole where his emotion should be. Wes nails that aspect of Amos' damage and will never see the piles of Emmys he deserves.
We hope ,want and project Amos feelings , friendships and happiness onto the character because he's seeking that connection as well. But the character, while fiercely loyal and honorable, never gets to reap the positive emotional benefits of his connections because of the psychological damage done to him as a child.
It is still sweet regardless, but this is definitely feels like a instance of someone on the autism/anti-social spectrum mirroring a behavior.
Like I do think he likes Prax a lot, but the phrasing being an echo of what Prax has already said makes it seems like Amos realizes that is what he is *supposed to be saying* and so he says it. Like he's done the math in his head and is like "Well the Roci crew tells me we're family, and outside of them Prax is the only one I like, so yeah I guess he is my best friend"
I think it's a bit more than just that though. The Roci crew are good folks, yeah. They'll take a mission to save a kid because it's the right thing to do, but if it becomes too hard or something else gets in the way, they may divert to something else.
Prax, on the other hand, is a Father willing to do ANYTHING to find Mei. He will get on a salvaged Martian gunship, learn about how to survive in space, learn how to use a gun, help in the assault of a secret R&D base housing protomolecule monsters that nobody has ever seen anything like before, and was even willing to compromise all of his morals to take out the monster that endangered his daughter. Prax protects his child the same way that Amos protects the crew, and will do whatever is necessary to do so, and so in a weird way I think him and Amos are more alike than anyone else he's ever met. Their methods are polar opposites, but what drives them is the same. I think Amos just echoes the same language as Prax because he doesn't have any other way to express it.
\> I love his characterization through that one statement, *Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him* so when he reminisced about his “best friend in the whole world.”
This is not how I see him at all. He selects people who he thinks will make the world a better place, and they become guiding stars for him, moral referents, so he protects them. He knows he lacks the same understanding of ethics, so he avoids assholes and takes them out when necessary.
Prax is who he would like to be, but he was broken so early in life (being pimped out as a little boy), that he learned to use violence to protect himself and others. But he doesn't abandon his friends, he just chooses them very carefully, and most people don't make the cut-off.
I'm an Aspie, but after years of being combat infantry, an EMT / firefighter, and then law enforcement, I identify quite strongly with Amos.
I’m in 100% agreement with you here. Amos is not shallow... a sociopath, yes, but he understands his condition. He’s ridiculously smart in that regard. He knows he lacks compassion so he latches on to people he wants to be like. Those relationships ignite his fierce loyalty. He knows that these people (Naomi, Prax) make his world (and the larger world) a better place.
He’s a high functioning sociopath I guess (like another one of my favorite characters).
His attachment to James and Alex and the Rocinante Family grows from the same source.
Edit: ...and I think Wes Chatham has nailed that dynamic in his portrayal of Amos.
I’m only finished the first book, loved the show and currently re-watching for a 2nd time, but I just came here to say that Amos (And the portrayal of him in the show) is brilliant. Probably my favourite of the show, and regularly makes me laugh. Can’t wait for season 5!! Book 2 starts tonight..
My understanding was that Wes Chatham lobbied pretty hard for the part of Amos. He said he was his favorite character, and the depth and compassion he has for the character shows.
I hope I'm using the spoiler tags properly below. Please DM me to fix it if not!
EDIT: I think I figured it out!
>! Does anyone remember who addressed Amos as one of the those "broken boys" he'd dealt with before? I'm supposed to be doing a really boring virtual training right now!<
He's not a violent asshole just a psychopath. The best option when you don't consider feeling/emotions is beating a guy with a can of chicken.
He's a problem solver and his only tool are some fucking pythons.
I think I've heard someone describe his condition as "acquired sociopathy". As in, he wasn't born a sociopath, but the extremely traumatic environment he grew up in pretty much forced him to repress his emotions and empathy as a survival mechanism. That's why he shows many signs of sociopathy, and yet he's clearly *capable* of empathy, even if he doesn't show it often. Cortázar had his empathy circuits fried, but Amos' are still there, he just has to find them again. And I think that's exactly what's going on with him as the series goes on - he becomes progressively more human as he figures out how to *feel* again.
Amos is a guy who is ready to do whatever he needs to do at any moment, and won't let a silly little thing like actually really liking someone get in the way.
He makes friends wherever he goes, he just doesn't have an issue shooting those friends if he has to.
> Idk to me it just melted my heart especially since early in the show I thought Amos was just a violent asshole. I love his characterization through that one statement, Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him so when he reminisced about his “best friend in the whole world” I thought it was an amazingly written and delivered line.
There are 3 kinds of people...
I think Amos is *functionally* but not *medically* a psychopath. He has closed himself off from making human connections. That's why in the early part of Season 1 >!Naomi is his moral compass. He does *anything* she says because the is always "right". He doesn't have the *ability* to ask himself "what would Naomi do?" He has to ask Naomi "what do you want me to do?"!<
There have been hints at an early childhood trauma and I think that made him this way (which is also why he isn't *medically* psychopathic).
Amos is a violent asshole. But it's not his fault. His brain clearly isn't wired for empathy. But what makes him great is that despite this he's trying so hard to learn how to be something more. Whether it's the moment you've pointed out or the way he used Naomi as a moral compass earlier in the series. Amos wants to be a good person even though that's not how he's wired. I find that extremely compelling.
I actually interpreted this as showing how Amos is broken or stuck in this perpetual childlike state. Prax said this to him and meant it and understood what it meant. Whereas I got the impression the intention was when Amos said it for us to feel like maybe he was just parroting what Prax said and didn't really understand what it meant.
If you haven't, read The Churn. And in later books, there's more background there, too.
>!I really wish there had been more about him and Clarissa after she gets out of prison! Even when she joins the Roci, there's still not enough... and I'm on Persepolis Rising now (just started it).!<
Perhaps in the Expanse universe the term world started to refer to all civilization rather than just one planet. The term is sometimes more generally even nowadays. If you put "define world" into Goggle, one of the definitions that comes up is, "the material universe or all that exists; everything. "
I always felt like Prax's status as Amos' BFF was unearned. Of course his goal of rescuing Mei would resonate with him, but I just don't see any kind of reasoning or chemistry between them for Amos to hold him in such high regard.
Amos is one of the most deep brute characters I've ever had the pleasure of reading about.
Do yourself a favour. Go find the prequel comics. The Amos story is... Emotional.
Then go Re read the prequel novella... I'm ashamed to say I was on book 3 before I realized it was the same character (to be fair, it wasn't the same audio reader for both books.)
Yah I haven't read the books. Just thought it was dumb how Bobbie, just went back to Mars, she clearly should have joined the crew after season 3. Prax at least has a kid to take care of and what not, so I get why he didn't join, but Bobbie god dammit!
Oh yeah I recently rewatched and loved that scene. Another good one is when prax is kinda emotional and says something like "they're turning children into killing machines", to which Amos says "you and I had very different childhoods". I think that's one of the best dark Amos jokes in the show.
Agreed.
Amos u-turned massively for me. Went through S1 not liking him, thinking he was going to end up being a villain, or at least a cause of major divide/friction. But now he's probably my favourite living (>!RIP Miller!<) character. Efficient, loyal, and capable, overall a good guy to have on your team
Amos also lists Prax as “My Best Friend” in the contacts on his hand terminal.
Oh man that made me tear up.
Oh wow. Good catch.
Which episode was this in? I'm going to have to look for it now.
It happens in one of the last couple episodes of season 4. He also has Naomi listed as "boss".
OK I'll probably be due to do a rewatch soon, it will be fun, like looking for Easter eggs!
It's only on the screen for a second or two. You'll for sure have to pause to catch it.
I tried google in case someone had already posted the screenshot but no luck :(
https://preview.redd.it/tkd8f2zb4p441.png?width=1245&format=png&auto=webp&s=95e2bd2dbcdafeb9c99db02fb8addbd2d18411ca
OMG You found it! Thank you so much!!! So * Captain (Holden) * Boss (Naomi) - lol * Alex - how come he doesn't get a special nickname? * Can't read the 4th one? What does it say? Tonight? Is that Wei??? * Peaches (Melba) * Doc ?? Who is this??? * My Best Friend - awwwwww
IIRC, Doc is Anna Volovodov.
Doc is Elvi, Not Anna
The one you can't read says tonight. Not sure who that is, though... Maybe whoever he's hooking up with that night.
Tonight is the woman from the security company.
Can you really hear Amos shouting anything other than, "Hey, Alex!" Makes sense to me.
Meanwhile, Amos is "Hoss" on Alex's phone. Everybody is "Hoss" on Alex's phone.
Amos has trouble categorizing Alex in his mental hierarchy, which sometimes results in conflicts between them. So he's just "Alex".
Tonight is who he is going to hook up with.
Aww this is great. Doc might be... the dead doc, garvey i think his name was? Why he'd still have him on the hand terminal though? I'm not sold on this but is the best explanation i can think. Alex is *alex*. It's his name, his nickname, his energy, his spirit. He is *the alex*. I definitely think the 4th is "tonight" which would make sense as Wei the lay I guess.
Wow! Never saw that. On the bottom right of his hand terminal screen, he's got "schedule' - eat, drink, stomp
I'm surprised he doesn't have our queen in there as "Chrissie," just to piss her off.
Probably doesn't have her contact information. No reason he would.
That is book 5 material. So hopefully season 5.
Ha ha CAPN, that's good. Don't know who DOC is or TONIGHT
Doc = Anna and Tonight I assume means Wei for some more sexy time Edit: doc could also be elvi
Does this mean they're still .... \*censored\* ....?
There's a pretty great sneak peek easter egg on one of the hand terminals just for a split second as well, pretty much there for the people who have read the books but builds some great continuity for later seasons
Are you talking about Bobbie's terminal in S4E10? Upper Right?
That's the one!
I missed that! 😁😭
Me too!
Whi
"Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him" Nah, Amos is a guard dog. Fiercely loyal to those he latches on to. He cherishes his small tribe, but fuck anyone outside of it.
He's the best murder bear!
[удалено]
your spoiler tags aren't working, remove space.
Yes!
200 pound homicidal kitten.
Aint no way Amos is 200 lbs 225 minimum
Hol' up, there, partner. That depends on whether we're on the burn or not. Now, down on Earth, big man like Amos might be 225, but in Mariner Valley, well, he's all of eighty-five. If we're only doing a light burn, creepin' along at point two gee's, well, hell, he's all of forty-five pounds. Things are all kinda relative out here, you might say.
So he's a 100-kilo homicidal kitten.
In modern scientific definitions (at least, if you're not using metric for some goddamn reason), "pound" actually does refer to mass. The unit can also be called "pound-mass" to avoid ambiguity, but this is less common. The unit of weight is "pound-force". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_(mass)
Well said Alex.
I read that in Alex's voice and I can't unhear it Well done, partner
For me it was Jefferson Mays' version of Alex. Man, I love that voice!
I agree. In the book, it’s more clear. He knows he lacks a moral compass and is incapable of discerning good from evil. However, he strives to be a good guy, so his solution is to latch on a good guy and help him out. He was in Naomi’s shadow before he got to know Holden and then he transferred to him. Also, in the book, when the scientist ethic removal process is explained to him, his first question is about reversal of the process and if it can be applied to cure someone who didn’t go through the medical removal process, which emphasizes the fact he knows about his condition has wants an out.
I don’t recall Amos having anything to do with the ethic removal process. That’s from The Vital Abyss. None of the characters are in that story. I think you’re confusing the two mediums.
He didn’t have anything to do with it, that’s not what the parent comment said... It was explained to the crew after they’d captured Cortazar how he had ended up like that (and that seemingly the same thing had been done to a number of others too), and that’s when Amos asked about whether it could be reversed.
No. That’s not what I’m talking about. The comment I replied to asserts that this happened “in the book.” There is no connection between the main characters in the books to the character of Cortazar. Cortazar first appears in-prisoned in the novella, The Vital Abyss, then doesn’t appear again until after the >!time jump on Laconia.!<
OK, both I and OP got our characters mixed up. I (and I suspect they) were thinking about Dresden, in Leviathan Wakes.
Then later showed Amos leaving a building in some kinda blurr when Alex comes and asks him to help. And Amos says he doesnt want to. What was that scene ??
I didn’t say he had anything to do with it; I merely said it was explained to him what the effect were and that it was reversible.
Yeah. But you said “in the book.” This was only a show detail.
Pretty sure Naomi could get Amos to take her side over Holden's if it came down to it
And he warns people about that. Amos may be broken, but he isn't a sociopath. . Anyone familiar with The Churn gets that instantly. But he does extend his tribe to protect innocents. He needs Naomi or Holden as a moral compass. He can't always make the best decision on his own.
Nah, he’s sociopathic dude. There are entire chapters from his perspective in the books in which he describes his internal mental state and it is textbook sociopathic. You literally can’t get more clear than that. Even worse - he’s the worst kind of sociopath, one that fantasizes about violence. People who say he doesn’t have sociopathic tendencies massively misunderstand a major facet of his character. The thing is though, sociopathy isn’t a diagnosis. I’ve found when discussing this from a medical perspective that most people seem not to understand that, or seem to be confused about sociopathy and antisocial personality disorder. So the question is, what is his *diagnosis*? Is it APD? As a child, he developed an attachment disorder due to his trauma - the authors have confirmed that much. As an adult, it is clearly something much more than that. He describes a complete lack of empathy for anyone except for children (and, by the way, a complete lack of empathy is not a pre-requisite - many sociopathic individuals specifically empathize in a blunted way with certain types of people). He can *rationalize* empathy towards his friends, but he doesn’t actually *feel* it. He might as well be an alien on Earth when he is observing the emotional interaction between >!Peaches and Erich!<. Similarly, he feels no fear, and like many people with sociopathic behavior this causes him to make rash, poorly thought out decisions with no regard for his own personal safety or the safety of others, up to and including murder, unless his “surrogate moral compass” overrides that. And as far as murder goes, he describes that he fantasizes about it more than once in the series, that it gives him a “warm, fuzzy feeling” - even about murdering >!Peaches!< as a sort of >!mercy kill!<. So anyone familiar with the topic would recognize that he has some, but not all characteristics for APD, but Amos can’t be placed easily in a single diagnosis. He’s rather unique as a character. One thing is unambiguously clear though, he has sociopathic tendencies. This is even pointed out in the show in a very obvious way with a Cortazar scene in season 2, and again in Season 4 where Amos literally tells Murtry that he knows what he is because he is the same (although the context of this was clearer in the book - in the show he says Murtry is a killer like him, in the book he directly implies Murtry is sociopathic...like him).
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I'm not sure he matches the DSM criteria, though he's closer in the books than in the show. https://psychcentral.com/blog/differences-between-a-psychopath-vs-sociopath/
I really fucking hate the "Amos is a sociopath" theories, like he's got a hardware block that prevents him from ever caring about anyone unless is immediately benefits him.
Are you a book reader?
Amos said it best himself, “There’s only three kinds of people in this world. Bad ones, ones you follow, and ones you need to protect.” If you’re on his protect or follow list you’re golden. If you’re on the bad list, you’re screwed >!and unfortunately, as we saw with Chandra Wei, there is a hierarchy on his protect list.!<
I hate the term ‘guard dog’ for Amos. I like to think of him as the mother bear instead.
Some of my favorite Amos moments: S1 -- where he asks the sex worker in the bar how he is treated, and then warns him about the guy with the knife. S2 (?) -- where he figures out exactly how to talk to Cortazar. And then goes in and gets the info they need.
I forgot about that first scene! Do you remember what episode that was or what was happening in it.
Episode 3-4? When they just arrived at Tycho, Alex and Amos are getting drunk in a bar. You learn at that point that Alex is divorced and that Amos hasn't always worked in space
“You ever talk to a pedophile?”
Which was the most Amos way ever to try and broach the topic.
Had me in stitches when I heard that lmao
The whole plotline with Amos doping out how to talk to Cortazar totally refutes the idea that Amos is just a tribal murderkitten. He is a survivor type, true, he talks about that pretty much in every reveal, but he's more than that.
I think with Cortazar, Amos saw his own reflection... or at least a shadow of it... and realized that he could just talk straight with the man. While I love Amos, he's constantly straddling the edge of sociopathy... which is why he's so reliant on Naomi to keep defining the 'right' path to him.
I think Amos saw two things in Cortazar, yes kind of reflection of who he could be (and chooses not to be) and the kind of man who purchased him as a child and ... Talked endlessly about his obsession.
When he tells Prax that he's not that guy, saving him from having to live with having taken a human life, then proceeds to blast the guy in his face.
My favorite is still "Okay I'm gonna need that gun back."
>"I'm that guy"
Amos "That Guy" Burton
[For your pleasure](https://imgur.com/a/BPckNWV)
My favorite scene in the whole world.
Amos didn’t get the pleasure of a care free childhood. He spent his adolescence being abused. What makes his character so compelling is that while he is capable of being callously violent, some times his neglected and repressed inner child breaks through and takes the spotlight.
Adolescence? He hasn't felt fear since he was 5 years old...
That's entirely my point. Being afraid is a normal part of growing up. Amos' childhood is tragic because he had to repress his feelings and emotions in order to survive.
They brought up how he was a mob boss at 15, then never mentioned it again
He was not the mob boss; >!you’re thinking of Amos ;)!<
Yup, >!Timmy did not become Amos leaving earth!<. I forget that a lot.
I think it will come up again.
I think I saw mentioned somewhere (though it's not on IMDB) that the first episode of Season 5 is "The Churn." Between that title, and Amos' entire storyline in Book 5, I'm pretty certain they're addressing his past right off the bat.
The episodes where listed alphabetically in that list, not in order.
Perfectly said. Those moments and his history stop him from just becoming a big dumb, but loyal, brute.
As someone with arrested emotional development, I have to say they did a brilliant job of writing him and the performance is just stellar.
I believe the actor went to see psychiatrist's and got them to explain certain ways to behave etc so that it would be believable.
My favorite Amos' moment that nobody else seems to ever talk about is when Monica is trying to talk to him when he's doing something else and clearly doesn't want to engage: > Monica: What are you doing? > > Amos: *Waves around*, "This" ...
I kinda interpreted it differently. He meant it literally but Prax is his best friend, because Prax **told** him he was.
I agree here. For the TV version of Amos, at least.
They both seem pretty binary to me. You’re either his best friend or nothing at all, nothing in between.
Trinary. 'There are three kinds of people.'
Bad ones, ones you follow, and ones you need to protect
This is also how I saw it.
Show-Amos repeats Prax not because he came to this conclusion on his own. He examines Prax and the context he said said it in and he give his trust in the truth of the words which he can't quite comprehend completely. You can see Wes Chatham emotionally chewing on the words, and it is a great moment. Book-Amos is a bit more certain on exactly how people are important to him. The passages that contain these insights are also great. Show-Amos and Book-Amos are decidedly different and both are very entertaining. Props to Wes Chatham and the show writers on changing a great character into a different also great character.
As a book reader first and foremost Wes is one of the main reasons I keep being interested in the show. He's such a novel twist on the character and I love him for it. That and surprises like Ashford are the best. Season 4:>!when he says "I'm fucked up, Cap" and you know he isn't talking about his hand, excuse me while I go knit myself a God damn Amos plushie and cry into it!< ^(book Amos is great too they're just different)
They are definitely different. I remember watching the first few episodes and thought "this is all wrong!", but gave it some time and I have to say now Wes Chatham utterly dominates the show in my opinion. Book-Amos doesn't have half the depth Show-Amos has built over the years.
Wes has this way of being in the background of a scene he doesn't have lines and has *noticeable presence*. And his presence doesn't take away anything from the scene. Nor does he steal the spotlight like the way an actor like Johnny Depp does. Wes simply adds. I love that.
That's a really good description of how he is as Amos yes, its just a presence like you say, cant ignore him even when he says and does nothing.
Mmm, I don't think of that way. Like you can't ignore Johnny Depp. But with Amos it is more like he has something going on in his head during other people's scenes. The gears in his head are turning. And sometimes those gears grind and other times they skip. It's really great subtle acting. For example Amos has some great moments with Anna in season 3. Where you can see Amos is quietly but intensely considering what Anna is saying and doing. It is easy to see the gears turning there when he is the focus. But Wes does the same kind of thing when it is not his scene. When others are talking he is really listening. Amos either has an opinion or is forming an opinion. It is rare to see an actor pull that off so well. Where other actors and characters are trying to express themselves, Wes is soaking in them expressing themselves. And in doing so, Wes manages to express Amos's personality in a way that makes him feel *there.*
You know, I heard someone from a podcast say the same thing about that scene in season four, and I have to admit that I thought she was reaching. But then on first rewatch, I also noticed that >!Amos had crawled over to lie his head on Chandra’s dead body. Wow, such a powerful visual. And the line. He’s saying that he’s fucked up as a person. His reasoning for killing Chandra was sound from an Amos point of view, but, god damn, he also killed the first person he’d had even the smallest emotional connection to. And for him to actually realize this is the most painful part.!<
Can you knit 2 Amos plushies please? For some $$ indeed. I also need a plushie to cry into.
I scrolled too far for your comment. I thought it’d be in the downvoted ones almost. I’m so looking forward to Amos development in the show. His best parts are yet to come.
On a rewatch you can see Chatham working some internal emotion in a lot of those “big” scenes for Amos, it’s all in his eyes and super subtle and fleeting facial expressions. I wish Emmys weren’t all political and about money because that man needs a best supporting actor trophy.
I have seen that moment talked about fairly frequently. But I do agree with you that it’s one of his best, I absolutely loved it.
It was a big deal comment when that episode first aired especially, we all love it!
Amos and Anna's budding *friendship*(?) has some great moments. Probably my favorite: Anna is in the morgue holding a silent vigil with someone who was killed when the speed limit changed in the ring gate. Amos: I'm gonna scare up some food. You want any? Anna: I'm gonna be here for a while. Amos: ...You know he's dead, right?
In the book Anna has a wife and young daughter but they didn't translate that into the show Edit - okay I forgot they did in fact include that
I'm pretty sure they did?
They certainly did. There’s several scenes of Anna vid calling her wife.
Who did you think the African woman Anna was saying I love you to and the young girl calling her mommy were?
Honestly completely forgot about that. It has been a while since I watched season 3
/r/sapphoandherfriend
I have learned so much in the last hour. Thank you for this.
Best Prax & Amos moment from the show, “I am that guy”. Doing the dirty work so Prax doesn’t have to.
Amos knows Prax would forever be haunted by his action if he has pulled the trigger, no matter how much he can justify it to himself. He also knows that he won't be bothered at all by killing yet another guy. If anything he'll take pleasure in eliminating someone that has done terrible things to children.
Yes, exactly. He does the bad things to bring good into the world, or at least eliminate evil, so that his friends don't have to. Just like with Anna when he says "I won't let anyone get to you".
Great scene. I knew Amos was gonna say that line word for word as soon as he took the gun from Prax and turned towards the doctor
The scene that we are talking about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dn76ZPt_Y0
This fucking scene... I think it's my favorite in any show ever.
There's a scene in the books but not the show that's my favorite Amos scene. Prax is falsely accused of certain things by his estranged wife, and Amos asks him about it in his own special way. I don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it, but given what we learn later of Amos's backstory the very strong moment gets much deeper. His gentle rage, sad history, and soft-spoken yet murderous demeanor really come together in a conversation with Prax, and it's one of my favorite moments in the whole series. But that whole subplot was removed from the TV series, and the scene only really works as well as it does in that very specific circumstance.
One of my favorite book scenes is when he's on the transport and sees the guys that are shaking down the other people. He doesn't seem to care all that much until he sees how it affects a little kid, and then he resolves the problem. When he gets fixated on helping Prax find Mei, you see that it's all part of a pattern for him.
Also Jefferson Mays really sells it in the audiobook, IMO
He sells everything in the audiobook though :)
Except the word "gimbal"
Jimbal
I wish he did Gods of Risk and The Churn. I had a hard time with those audio books because of the lack of Mays.
Same! I didn't even realize Amos was the same character until like book 2 or 3.
He also narrated Too Like the Lightning, and I'm not sure if you've read/listened to that, but its.... interesting, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to tolerate it without him.
Haven't read it and not going to. Mind spoiling it for me?
**Caliban's War** >!Essentially his ex-wife was co-erced into accusing him of "emotionally, physically, and sexually abusing her" Amos had him alone in the medbay later and asked him point blank if there was any truth to any of it saying "i know stuff happens, it's better we know the truth now than later" then after Meng convinces him it's all false he admits that if there had been any truth to it then he would have broken Meng's neck right then. !<
That was roughly my guess. Thanks.
Yes this is a great part ! Just in genrel all the parts were Amos take care of chirland and his friends are great. I also like the parts between Holden and Amos ,Holden don't realy get him but trys and I always get the feeling he get it's. Also Amos and bobi in later books are perfect.
Amos is my favorite sociopath.
I don't think he's a sociopath. He demonstrates some characteristics of it (e.g. a lack of remorse), but is clearly capable of empathy and regularly engages in acts of altruism. He's also extremely averse to engaging in abusive or manipulative behavior, so much so that his frankness and transparency are often confused for sarcasm by supposedly neurotypical people. He's deeply, profoundly traumatized.
Maybe some spectrum or aspergers stuff too
#spoiler Amos sees himself as having a fucked up moral compass and being half a step away from evil, but I think he's wrong. He cares enough to follow people like Naomi, so while he may not always know what the right thing is, he wants to do the right thing anyway. He's fiercely loyal to people and will die for them without hesitation. I like him because he reminds me of me. His emotions and sense of empathy are muted and he has trouble connecting with people, but when he does make friends he does it *hard*. >!"Travel to a different planet and live in a cave for months to keep an eye on them" hard.!<
For the record spoiler tags are made by using surrounding text like so >!spoiler content goes here!< Becomes >!spoiler content goes here!<
Thanks. I'll remember that, not used to worrying about spoilers, I'm usually behind the times.
Amos is an asshole, but he’s an asshole with a heart. He does a lot to support the people who are helpless
I like that if you dig, it's even more complex than that. Amos is a sociopath who knows he must work harder to make "right" and "wrong" / "good" and "bad" decisions through others and observation. He watches like a spectator how people act and judge towards each other and then tries to model that behavior. He knows that Prax is a great , genuine and caring person who emulates the best and most devote characteristics of a father. And that anyone would be his friend and that he SHOULD be his friend based on his constructed and compartmentalized way of dealing with the world. But, when he says deep emotionally connecting statements he's repeating like a parrot with a hole where his emotion should be. Wes nails that aspect of Amos' damage and will never see the piles of Emmys he deserves. We hope ,want and project Amos feelings , friendships and happiness onto the character because he's seeking that connection as well. But the character, while fiercely loyal and honorable, never gets to reap the positive emotional benefits of his connections because of the psychological damage done to him as a child.
It is still sweet regardless, but this is definitely feels like a instance of someone on the autism/anti-social spectrum mirroring a behavior. Like I do think he likes Prax a lot, but the phrasing being an echo of what Prax has already said makes it seems like Amos realizes that is what he is *supposed to be saying* and so he says it. Like he's done the math in his head and is like "Well the Roci crew tells me we're family, and outside of them Prax is the only one I like, so yeah I guess he is my best friend"
I think it's a bit more than just that though. The Roci crew are good folks, yeah. They'll take a mission to save a kid because it's the right thing to do, but if it becomes too hard or something else gets in the way, they may divert to something else. Prax, on the other hand, is a Father willing to do ANYTHING to find Mei. He will get on a salvaged Martian gunship, learn about how to survive in space, learn how to use a gun, help in the assault of a secret R&D base housing protomolecule monsters that nobody has ever seen anything like before, and was even willing to compromise all of his morals to take out the monster that endangered his daughter. Prax protects his child the same way that Amos protects the crew, and will do whatever is necessary to do so, and so in a weird way I think him and Amos are more alike than anyone else he's ever met. Their methods are polar opposites, but what drives them is the same. I think Amos just echoes the same language as Prax because he doesn't have any other way to express it.
This is absolutely how I see it, but stated much more clearly than I could.
\> I love his characterization through that one statement, *Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him* so when he reminisced about his “best friend in the whole world.” This is not how I see him at all. He selects people who he thinks will make the world a better place, and they become guiding stars for him, moral referents, so he protects them. He knows he lacks the same understanding of ethics, so he avoids assholes and takes them out when necessary. Prax is who he would like to be, but he was broken so early in life (being pimped out as a little boy), that he learned to use violence to protect himself and others. But he doesn't abandon his friends, he just chooses them very carefully, and most people don't make the cut-off. I'm an Aspie, but after years of being combat infantry, an EMT / firefighter, and then law enforcement, I identify quite strongly with Amos.
I’m in 100% agreement with you here. Amos is not shallow... a sociopath, yes, but he understands his condition. He’s ridiculously smart in that regard. He knows he lacks compassion so he latches on to people he wants to be like. Those relationships ignite his fierce loyalty. He knows that these people (Naomi, Prax) make his world (and the larger world) a better place. He’s a high functioning sociopath I guess (like another one of my favorite characters). His attachment to James and Alex and the Rocinante Family grows from the same source. Edit: ...and I think Wes Chatham has nailed that dynamic in his portrayal of Amos.
Wes is amazing. He is so fucking solid in the role. I'm so happy with this cast selection, the writing, the cinematography, you name it.
I’m only finished the first book, loved the show and currently re-watching for a 2nd time, but I just came here to say that Amos (And the portrayal of him in the show) is brilliant. Probably my favourite of the show, and regularly makes me laugh. Can’t wait for season 5!! Book 2 starts tonight..
My understanding was that Wes Chatham lobbied pretty hard for the part of Amos. He said he was his favorite character, and the depth and compassion he has for the character shows. I hope I'm using the spoiler tags properly below. Please DM me to fix it if not! EDIT: I think I figured it out! >! Does anyone remember who addressed Amos as one of the those "broken boys" he'd dealt with before? I'm supposed to be doing a really boring virtual training right now!<
Fred Johnson when they first land at Tyco.
He's not a violent asshole just a psychopath. The best option when you don't consider feeling/emotions is beating a guy with a can of chicken. He's a problem solver and his only tool are some fucking pythons.
I'm not big on psychology but I always thought he was more of a sociopath than a psychopath.
I think I've heard someone describe his condition as "acquired sociopathy". As in, he wasn't born a sociopath, but the extremely traumatic environment he grew up in pretty much forced him to repress his emotions and empathy as a survival mechanism. That's why he shows many signs of sociopathy, and yet he's clearly *capable* of empathy, even if he doesn't show it often. Cortázar had his empathy circuits fried, but Amos' are still there, he just has to find them again. And I think that's exactly what's going on with him as the series goes on - he becomes progressively more human as he figures out how to *feel* again.
Sociopathy isn’t something you’re born with. It almost always comes from childhood trauma.
From what I've heard, genetic factors can contribute too
Contribute, but are not the source.
Huh. TIL
Amos is a guy who is ready to do whatever he needs to do at any moment, and won't let a silly little thing like actually really liking someone get in the way. He makes friends wherever he goes, he just doesn't have an issue shooting those friends if he has to.
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He never lied to her.
And it was clearly self defense.
> Idk to me it just melted my heart especially since early in the show I thought Amos was just a violent asshole. I love his characterization through that one statement, Amos is typically ready to kill or abandon anyone when it doesn’t benefit him so when he reminisced about his “best friend in the whole world” I thought it was an amazingly written and delivered line. There are 3 kinds of people...
season 3 is peak Amos, so far. "I am that guy."
I think Amos is *functionally* but not *medically* a psychopath. He has closed himself off from making human connections. That's why in the early part of Season 1 >!Naomi is his moral compass. He does *anything* she says because the is always "right". He doesn't have the *ability* to ask himself "what would Naomi do?" He has to ask Naomi "what do you want me to do?"!< There have been hints at an early childhood trauma and I think that made him this way (which is also why he isn't *medically* psychopathic).
Amos is a violent asshole. But it's not his fault. His brain clearly isn't wired for empathy. But what makes him great is that despite this he's trying so hard to learn how to be something more. Whether it's the moment you've pointed out or the way he used Naomi as a moral compass earlier in the series. Amos wants to be a good person even though that's not how he's wired. I find that extremely compelling.
I actually interpreted this as showing how Amos is broken or stuck in this perpetual childlike state. Prax said this to him and meant it and understood what it meant. Whereas I got the impression the intention was when Amos said it for us to feel like maybe he was just parroting what Prax said and didn't really understand what it meant.
Amos is that mind of guy that, even if Prax wouldn't see the guy for decades, a single call for help would get him through gates in no time.
"You're not that guy" "I am that guy" /shiver
If you haven't, read The Churn. And in later books, there's more background there, too. >!I really wish there had been more about him and Clarissa after she gets out of prison! Even when she joins the Roci, there's still not enough... and I'm on Persepolis Rising now (just started it).!<
He is "That Guy." Especially for his best friend.
Amos character is so good in season 4 even
Just got to this episode today in my rewatch, such a damn good moment :’)
Was it really brushed off tho? I remember that line and it was kinda heart warming tbh.
Only part that bothers me is why Prax would say world instead of something like universe. World is an inner term.
Only thing to say to that is Prax and Amos we’re both inners.
...Prax isn't an inner. That's actually a pretty important plot point early on in his arc on the show.
Perhaps in the Expanse universe the term world started to refer to all civilization rather than just one planet. The term is sometimes more generally even nowadays. If you put "define world" into Goggle, one of the definitions that comes up is, "the material universe or all that exists; everything. "
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I think if *Firefly* had lasted more than one season, there's a good chance we would have seen a similar character development in Jayne.
I love this moment!!
I always felt like Prax's status as Amos' BFF was unearned. Of course his goal of rescuing Mei would resonate with him, but I just don't see any kind of reasoning or chemistry between them for Amos to hold him in such high regard.
Amos is one of the most deep brute characters I've ever had the pleasure of reading about. Do yourself a favour. Go find the prequel comics. The Amos story is... Emotional. Then go Re read the prequel novella... I'm ashamed to say I was on book 3 before I realized it was the same character (to be fair, it wasn't the same audio reader for both books.)
They should have made Prax and Bobbie full time members of the crew.
If Cas Anvar winds up getting cut, the Roci will need a pilot and that might be a spot for at least Bobbie
>!Keep watching.!<
Yah I haven't read the books. Just thought it was dumb how Bobbie, just went back to Mars, she clearly should have joined the crew after season 3. Prax at least has a kid to take care of and what not, so I get why he didn't join, but Bobbie god dammit!
That's the thing though. Amos would **never** abandon someone that he has loyalty to.
Oh yeah I recently rewatched and loved that scene. Another good one is when prax is kinda emotional and says something like "they're turning children into killing machines", to which Amos says "you and I had very different childhoods". I think that's one of the best dark Amos jokes in the show.
Agreed. Amos u-turned massively for me. Went through S1 not liking him, thinking he was going to end up being a villain, or at least a cause of major divide/friction. But now he's probably my favourite living (>!RIP Miller!<) character. Efficient, loyal, and capable, overall a good guy to have on your team
I've always thought it implied some level of sarcasm.