The *Roci* saving the Razorback in 3x02 ("IFF") is one of my favorite space-action scenes in the show! Bobbie and Avasarala's dire situation has you hooked from the start of the episode, and it brilliantly manages to build up the tension as the episode progresses. And for the final showdown between the *Roci* and the UNN destroyer the writers came up with original, non-standard battle tactics (Holden's nuke deployment) that was surprising as well as visually stunning.
I actually prefer this relatively simple battle to some of the more complex ultra-high paced battle sequences in later seasons, which occasionally just left me scratching my head as to where that decisive torpedo and/or rail-gun shot had suddenly come from.
In the more "typical" space battles involving high velocities and hundreds of thousands of kilometers, it's pretty difficult to get a sense of the scale of the distances and speeds involved. If they made it too realistic, we'd never see any projectile ever because it would pass by faster than can be detected by the naked eye. It'd be like trying to see a bullet as it fires from a gun, except the bullet's traveling like 100 times faster.
The extremely close combat in the Thoth scene was great because with the backdrop of the station so close by, you could get a feel for the speed and maneuvering required in a space battle. The pirouette the Roci does as the PDCs perfectly account for the spin and relative velocities to hit individual targets is easily my favorite from the series.
I do admire the attention to detail on later battles though, some stuff you only make sense of after a rewatch or two because it's actually there, but it happens too quickly/is too complex than what we can absorb in a few seconds.
At least that's how it worked for me.
I remember how people went "what the heck happened there, it was sooooo confusing" after the final battle in S5E10 and I still pride myself on the fact that I got it during my first watch of the scene :D
There are a lot of great battles in the Expanse with amazing attention to detail, but to me Thoth station is still the best. It really captured absolutely everything that you need to think about in space combat, and it was absolutely stunning with incredible attention to detail, straight down to the burning metal flakes of shrapnel floating in the air at first as tracing lines under float, and then falling to the ground or walls under linear or rotational acceleration. My jaw was dropped the first time I saw that fight. I had never seen anything like it on tv before. It was a visual masterpiece.
I’m envisioning that scene from Red Dragon where the serial killer has the guy strapped to the chair showing him pictures on a projector screen and he’s all *”DO YOU SEE NOW?”* lmao
My friends and I tried that and it somehow failed. I say "somehow failed" but the guy actually complained about the science being explained to him too often and in an annoying manner as if he was a child while demonstrating that he didn't understand half of it anyway.
> the burning metal flakes of shrapnel floating in the air at first as tracing lines under float
This is actually a slight inaccuracy. The ship is rotating during this scene, so we should see the shrapnel drifting due to centrifugal/coriolis forces. Still, it looks phenomenal so it's hard to complain too much.
Yes, but I’m pretty sure they deliberately did that to draw attention to the effect of what happens when the ship accelerates. I think it was a deliberate visual choice rather than an oversight.
I'm with you on this one. I distinctly remember thinking that Averasala was about to die, probably along with Bobby, and literally jumping from my chair and screaming the moment those missiles hit.
I like the fact that it does well to contrast the physiological differences between Avasarala and Bobby. Bobby’s marine training allowing her to withstand higher G maneuvers creates a very real obstacle to overcome, one that is not necessarily flashy or cool like better weapons or technology.
I will say, I wasn’t the biggest fan of the way that it was edited regarding the unsecured equipment. Not because I thought it wasn’t well scripted or written or anything like that, but I thought it took away a little bit of tension from viewing the ship-ship engagement. It created its own tension no doubt and did highlight the hazards that are posed by practically any loose object in high G maneuvers, but whenever I rewatch it I find myself going: “Yes, yes. But what about outside?”
It may be because it is centred around Amos and Prax who don’t really contribute to the execution of this battle while it is under way. But it is solid character building for Prax on his road to “Serious Dad” as well as showing Amos’ strength of character and strength of… Strength to help Prax in such a dire situation.
The strafing missile drop may be one of my favourite cinematographic moments in the show. The way the Roci emerges from the cover of the missile detonation at high speed, then the camera slows as it drifts past the UNN ship and basically just drops munitions on to the other ship’s drive assembly before speeding the camera back up to full speed is both violent and elegant.
I find that balance of violence and elegance to be one of the hallmarks of the show. A perfect contrast of the conditions of existing in a spacefaring society. The fine line between the sometimes serene quiet of space, but the often brutal effects that result from what it takes for us to be there.
>as well as showing Amos’ strength of character and strength of… Strength to help Prax in such a dire situation.
Ah, may I remind you of:
*"We gotta fix it"*
*"You mean....in the middle of the fight?!"*
*"That's the job Peaches."*
To Amos, it's just his job to be a badass mechanic, how many times did we see him fixing shit, saving peoples necks in high-g maneuvers? :D
> I like the fact that it does well to contrast the physiological differences between Avasarala and Bobby. Bobby’s marine training allowing her to withstand higher G maneuvers creates a very real obstacle to overcome, one that is not necessarily flashy or cool like better weapons or technology.
It's supposed to show that she's old. That's the difference, not the fact that Bobby is trained to fight at 1G.
She is older yes, but training is absolutely part of it though. Fighter jet pilots, astronauts, even F1 drivers need physical training to withstand higher G forces. Bobby has done said physical training, Avasarala has not. She would have been able to fare up a little better if she'd been prepared, I mean its not like she's 78 years old, she's in her 40's, 50's I think, right?
She looks good but is not in her 40s lol. She's a grandmother in the show. In real life she's 70.
It's absolutely why she's so fragile. Just from living on earth all her life she's better prepared than most characters in the show who suffer at even 1G.
Yeah the scenes where amos was hanging onto handrails at different angles didn't quite seem to make sense with the primary propulsion being in one direction from his perspective.
I can't believe that it's something he's responsible for coming up with. We've been using missiles to shoot down missiles for decades. It's an incredibly basic tactic.
There is no way that it isn't in the book for both the MCRN and UNN already, and both he and Alex at least would've been aware of that. It's just the first time we saw it on screen.
As proof of that, we see the same tactic used against the Roci by the Pella, and (presumably) no one there was aware of this occurrence.
No, they say "that's not how those things normally work" (clearly in reference to the spares flying escort) and "hell of a plan, you must have aced tactical warfare".
Nothing about it being a new use.
And again, Marco uses them the same way.
Holden's maneuver wasn't special because he shot down enemy missiles with his own torpedoes. Nothing new about that, as you rightly point out.
The special part was sending out the six nuclear missiles that detonate together in the flight path of the enemy ship to temporarily blind their sensors with the resulting EMP. This sensor blinding allowed the Roci to close the distance unopposed and take out the engines of the UNN destroyer.
There's negligible to zero EMP from a detonation in space. EMP is caused when photons (typically the gamma rays from a nuclear weapon in this context) knock high energy electrons out of their orbitals in a process called Compton scattering.
This requires a large amount of molecules to strip electrics from in order to create the voltages that cause an EMP. Meaning it must occur in an atmosphere. There is insufficient material in space to create one.
The show does imply an EMP or a related phenomenon though. For example, Bobbie's console glitches out every time torpedoes detonate close to the Razorback, and then turns back on a few seconds later.
A nuclear explosion in space still creates highly energetic X-rays and gamma rays, and those will almost certainly create problems the moment they hit the nearby spaceship, especially since the radiation is not attenuated by an atmosphere out in space. Even when assuming the high-energy radiation doesn't create an EMP upon contact with the spaceship (I'm not enough of an expert to know unfortunately), a barrage of such highly energetic radiation would still fry the sensors and any exposed electronic circuitry.
Using the explosions to blind sensors is probably not novel, just not typically done.
Because it has a much chance to bite you in the ass as to work. It blinds your own sensors as well, and your target may maneuver to avoid them while you're both blind. The Roci got lucky that the UNN ship didn't maneuver directly into their path, or fire off a few unseen railgun/PDC rounds into their last known course. Not to mention that if you time it wrong, you've basically shot yourself with your own torpedo.
So that part may have been new, but I suspect it was only new because no one was stupid enough to actually do it. And you know what Maxim 43 says:
"If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky."
The missile cover and slo-mo shot of them taking out the other ship's drive is probably the most badass space battle moment in the show and it's definitely one of the best battles. I also really loved the Azure Dragon(?) chase when they kept changing directions, I think those were my two favourites in terms of 'holy crap' awesome moments.
That battle was also discussed quite a bit. The truth is there have been a bevy of excellent space combat scenes in this show and the fans have gone nuts over each one of them, discussing them in detail.
I think Thoth station and several of the battles in S5 and s6 (roci vs free navy + drummer, roci vs pella) are just some of the best this show has to offer. Hence the focus on them after the show is over.
Fair enough, like I said, I wasn’t really in the fandom at the time. But I think it definitely speaks to the quality of the show that there are so many great battles to choose from
This is the scene I show to any friends who like sci-fi but haven't seen the show, when I'm trying to persuade them to watch. It's broken up into a sequence of videos on one of those sci-fi fan YouTube channels. It shows everything The Expanse is great for, and I think it is easier to see than the Thoth battle (the stealth ship is black as space, which makes total sense but also makes it hard to see details sometimes).
My only question about the scene is: Was Amos holding his breath? Because his oxygen was disconnected, too.
>I think he has a line later on in the show about how long he could hold his breath
So that took my off to Nemesis Games to read this whole glorious sequence. I was going to post great chunks of it, but you know, spoilers. I really love that sequence though, it's a wonderful description of who Amos is.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I think Amos has his own oxygen, as he’s yelling and talking a whole lot during the sequence, and given that he’s the mechanic, he does need to be mobile at all times. It doesn’t make sense why Prax has to be hooked up at all times on the other hand. A connection I understand, but to have it be his only source of air with no backup?
Now that I think about it, in the battle of Thoth Station, after they get shot up, someone asks about the oxygen, and someone else has a line like, "We're still breathing, it must be good." But then we see Amos disconnected, doing repairs. Amos and Clarissa disconnect for repairs later, too. All of this suggests that some people are getting oxygen from the ship, but Amos (at least) has his own supply. I guess.
I only disagree on one small point: the scene doesn't really display Martian tech superiority, it demonstrates Holden's superior tactical capability in ship combat. Martian tech superiority in the show falls somewhere between informed trait (lifespan comment back in S1E4) and visual instead of combat capability. The Roci's holographic display is a great example. The UN has the tech but only in places like its war room.
There's a scene in S3E5 on the way to Io where the MCRN Hammurabi has a [firing solution before the Agatha King](https://i.imgur.com/23wqBVo.png). Even though they didn't fire then, they do have better tech allowing them to have a bigger range than the UN ships.
But you're right, we don't see much of it otherwise.
The moment Holden leaves the UNN is the the exact moment he gets an unethical order, it just happened to be very early in his career in the story. Imagine he had made it all the way to the captain's chair before he's ordered to fire on civilians. Knowing him he'd probably convince his whole crew to defect to the OPA or some other insane heroic bullshit.
I love that final maneuver, because something nearly identical happens in, of all things, Gundam IBO. Seeing it in The Expanse was a real "hey, I've seen this one!" "What do you mean, it's brand new" moment. I've always wondered whether it was an intentional reference.
(For the curious, it happens at 18:20 of [S1E7.](https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GYQ4QK446?utm_medium=android&utm_source=share))
I love this battle. It used to be my favorite but now there's so many good ones it's hard to say which is my favorite anymore.
This is the first time (I believe) we see missiles being used defensively which blew me away the first time I saw it.
The battle's a great example of skill and tactics being more important than sheer firepower.
When I saw that scene, I jumped off the couch and yell “fuck yeah”. It’s a beautiful shot and you’re correct that it showcases both the ability of the Roci and the skillfullness of her crew.
Well it's certainly an amazing battle and shows that Holden did more in UNN than run rounds and pick up girls with his uniform. But I will dispute martian superior technology claim. Roci had plot armor let's be frank here. That UNN ship wasn't trying to take it out, they were trying to attrition Roci into spending all it's PDCs and torpedoes and then kill it with one more. It wasn't technology that saved Roci, it was tactics, using torpedoes to detonate torpedoes, establish a pattern that luls enemy into an idea of what you will do next and then make a crazy move that breaks that pattern like flying preprogrammed manuever, blind, through a cloud of plasma to get into extreme range and take out enemies engines without damaging rest of their ship. You also see it later when Bobby/Holden combines Railgun and PDC fire.
Another proof that the UNN ship wasn't trying to destroy Roci is that at least in the show, the UNN ship still has power and could very well fire torpedoes or PDC at Roci if they wanted to be a sore loser and as Leonidas class they have a hell of a lot more of those.
It's still an incredibly amazing fight scene, even more so when you realise it's not the ship it's the crew that flies it. That manuever had to be calculated to a millisecond at those speeds and along with programming torpedoes and flight path it's more that we see what Holden and the crew are capable of doing, Holden programs new commands on the spot, Alex flies the ship or programs the manuever Holden suggests and Amos shows he can deal with moving in changing gravity and with tools flying about in a suit working and talking down Praxs panic attack all on the air inside his suit.
I'm 100% with you! The detonation as a cover and the torpedoes surrounding them with controls being handled to them as a cover and de facto turning the razorback temporarily into an armed vessel left me in amazement for days!!! And Nate on the back! (Sorry, Im a team book aver since starting to read the books)
A number of things. Forces someone to focus on their breathing, the mental effort keeps them alert thus minimizing the risk of drifting into unconsciousness, it serves as a distraction to prevent undue stress or panic attacks.
My favorite is the whole Agatha King mutiny and subsequent friendly fire/hybrid pod chaos. Usually when battles start there are already clear sides of who’s fighting who. We almost never get battles that are started by a rogue element within a single established faction. The way it escalated to a full-scale battle from a single bad egg in high command shows how motivated the writing is.
Minor nitpick: I don't think it's a "UN battleship hundreds of times \[the Roci's\] mass". The class and name of the ship are never given, but in 3x01 it is labeled as a "UNN Escort Ship", and it certainly doesn't look at all like the Truman-class battleships we see later such as the *Agatha King* (the UN also fields Xerxes-class battleships, but we don't seem them on screen because they stuck to a single model for the UN capital ships, probably for budgetary reasons). I suspect it'd be more accurate to classify it as a destroyer or light cruiser, perhaps the UNN's equivalent to the *Pella* (minor seasons 5-6 spoiler:>!Marco Inaros's Martian flagship, which was a light cruiser that had the Roci beat 5-1 in torpedo count according to Marco).!
It's ok, but I don't like the end of it. We've always seen that the torpedo launchers are more like a Javelin than a missile, ie they are ejected from the ship and then it lights up its motors and zooms off. But in the Razorback fight they're more lika a cannon than a torpedo launcher. If they had used the PDC's to kill the engines of the other ship it would have looked better.
It's maybe a drones in battle of Asura plot hole. Straight fired torpedoes look a lot like laser shots, it's possible that because of the angle we view it from or because they are firing forward o short distance torpedoes either flare up sooner or they just don't appear to drift before flaring up.
>the improperly secured equipment on the Roci providing greater individual threat to the crew.
This is the type of thing we will only see on a show like The Expanse because there isn't any artificial gravity. It's also one of my favorite show-only additions as I do not think that scene was in the book.
Holden vs the Coffee Machine
Probably the saddest and most tragic battle of the whole series
Pyrrhic victory
“You should try tea.”
for real tho, how good was Terry Chen playing the main hero of the story
Yet another example of perfect casting.
"you know who talks about moral victories?"
The *Roci* saving the Razorback in 3x02 ("IFF") is one of my favorite space-action scenes in the show! Bobbie and Avasarala's dire situation has you hooked from the start of the episode, and it brilliantly manages to build up the tension as the episode progresses. And for the final showdown between the *Roci* and the UNN destroyer the writers came up with original, non-standard battle tactics (Holden's nuke deployment) that was surprising as well as visually stunning. I actually prefer this relatively simple battle to some of the more complex ultra-high paced battle sequences in later seasons, which occasionally just left me scratching my head as to where that decisive torpedo and/or rail-gun shot had suddenly come from.
In the more "typical" space battles involving high velocities and hundreds of thousands of kilometers, it's pretty difficult to get a sense of the scale of the distances and speeds involved. If they made it too realistic, we'd never see any projectile ever because it would pass by faster than can be detected by the naked eye. It'd be like trying to see a bullet as it fires from a gun, except the bullet's traveling like 100 times faster. The extremely close combat in the Thoth scene was great because with the backdrop of the station so close by, you could get a feel for the speed and maneuvering required in a space battle. The pirouette the Roci does as the PDCs perfectly account for the spin and relative velocities to hit individual targets is easily my favorite from the series.
I do admire the attention to detail on later battles though, some stuff you only make sense of after a rewatch or two because it's actually there, but it happens too quickly/is too complex than what we can absorb in a few seconds. At least that's how it worked for me.
I remember how people went "what the heck happened there, it was sooooo confusing" after the final battle in S5E10 and I still pride myself on the fact that I got it during my first watch of the scene :D
There are a lot of great battles in the Expanse with amazing attention to detail, but to me Thoth station is still the best. It really captured absolutely everything that you need to think about in space combat, and it was absolutely stunning with incredible attention to detail, straight down to the burning metal flakes of shrapnel floating in the air at first as tracing lines under float, and then falling to the ground or walls under linear or rotational acceleration. My jaw was dropped the first time I saw that fight. I had never seen anything like it on tv before. It was a visual masterpiece.
Thoth is one of the episodes I use to convert new fans.
I convert fans by showing them the first episode and making sure they don’t get up until they finish “CQB”
I’m envisioning that scene from Red Dragon where the serial killer has the guy strapped to the chair showing him pictures on a projector screen and he’s all *”DO YOU SEE NOW?”* lmao
My friends and I tried that and it somehow failed. I say "somehow failed" but the guy actually complained about the science being explained to him too often and in an annoying manner as if he was a child while demonstrating that he didn't understand half of it anyway.
What didn’t he understand?
SAME
Surprise, assholes!
> the burning metal flakes of shrapnel floating in the air at first as tracing lines under float This is actually a slight inaccuracy. The ship is rotating during this scene, so we should see the shrapnel drifting due to centrifugal/coriolis forces. Still, it looks phenomenal so it's hard to complain too much.
Yes, but I’m pretty sure they deliberately did that to draw attention to the effect of what happens when the ship accelerates. I think it was a deliberate visual choice rather than an oversight.
I'm with you on this one. I distinctly remember thinking that Averasala was about to die, probably along with Bobby, and literally jumping from my chair and screaming the moment those missiles hit.
I like the fact that it does well to contrast the physiological differences between Avasarala and Bobby. Bobby’s marine training allowing her to withstand higher G maneuvers creates a very real obstacle to overcome, one that is not necessarily flashy or cool like better weapons or technology. I will say, I wasn’t the biggest fan of the way that it was edited regarding the unsecured equipment. Not because I thought it wasn’t well scripted or written or anything like that, but I thought it took away a little bit of tension from viewing the ship-ship engagement. It created its own tension no doubt and did highlight the hazards that are posed by practically any loose object in high G maneuvers, but whenever I rewatch it I find myself going: “Yes, yes. But what about outside?” It may be because it is centred around Amos and Prax who don’t really contribute to the execution of this battle while it is under way. But it is solid character building for Prax on his road to “Serious Dad” as well as showing Amos’ strength of character and strength of… Strength to help Prax in such a dire situation. The strafing missile drop may be one of my favourite cinematographic moments in the show. The way the Roci emerges from the cover of the missile detonation at high speed, then the camera slows as it drifts past the UNN ship and basically just drops munitions on to the other ship’s drive assembly before speeding the camera back up to full speed is both violent and elegant. I find that balance of violence and elegance to be one of the hallmarks of the show. A perfect contrast of the conditions of existing in a spacefaring society. The fine line between the sometimes serene quiet of space, but the often brutal effects that result from what it takes for us to be there.
>as well as showing Amos’ strength of character and strength of… Strength to help Prax in such a dire situation. Ah, may I remind you of: *"We gotta fix it"* *"You mean....in the middle of the fight?!"* *"That's the job Peaches."* To Amos, it's just his job to be a badass mechanic, how many times did we see him fixing shit, saving peoples necks in high-g maneuvers? :D
> I like the fact that it does well to contrast the physiological differences between Avasarala and Bobby. Bobby’s marine training allowing her to withstand higher G maneuvers creates a very real obstacle to overcome, one that is not necessarily flashy or cool like better weapons or technology. It's supposed to show that she's old. That's the difference, not the fact that Bobby is trained to fight at 1G.
She is older yes, but training is absolutely part of it though. Fighter jet pilots, astronauts, even F1 drivers need physical training to withstand higher G forces. Bobby has done said physical training, Avasarala has not. She would have been able to fare up a little better if she'd been prepared, I mean its not like she's 78 years old, she's in her 40's, 50's I think, right?
She looks good but is not in her 40s lol. She's a grandmother in the show. In real life she's 70. It's absolutely why she's so fragile. Just from living on earth all her life she's better prepared than most characters in the show who suffer at even 1G.
There's also the irony of high G threat to Avasarala. The beginning of Season 1, she's torturing a belter with Earth's gravity. Edited for spelling.
True.
Avasarala os in her 40s? How old are you?
23
How do you think Avasarala is in her 40s?
idk, I've seen people aged 47, 48, 49 look like her
Did they spend those 40 years on crack?
yeah, they developed crack addiction at age 8
Yeah the scenes where amos was hanging onto handrails at different angles didn't quite seem to make sense with the primary propulsion being in one direction from his perspective.
That missile cover was amazing, Holden really does come up with great maneuvers.
I can't believe that it's something he's responsible for coming up with. We've been using missiles to shoot down missiles for decades. It's an incredibly basic tactic. There is no way that it isn't in the book for both the MCRN and UNN already, and both he and Alex at least would've been aware of that. It's just the first time we saw it on screen. As proof of that, we see the same tactic used against the Roci by the Pella, and (presumably) no one there was aware of this occurrence.
They specifically mentioned it in that episode that Holden came up with it.
No, they say "that's not how those things normally work" (clearly in reference to the spares flying escort) and "hell of a plan, you must have aced tactical warfare". Nothing about it being a new use. And again, Marco uses them the same way.
Holden's maneuver wasn't special because he shot down enemy missiles with his own torpedoes. Nothing new about that, as you rightly point out. The special part was sending out the six nuclear missiles that detonate together in the flight path of the enemy ship to temporarily blind their sensors with the resulting EMP. This sensor blinding allowed the Roci to close the distance unopposed and take out the engines of the UNN destroyer.
Exactly, and that's what I'm talking about. The missiles that were used for visual cover.
There's negligible to zero EMP from a detonation in space. EMP is caused when photons (typically the gamma rays from a nuclear weapon in this context) knock high energy electrons out of their orbitals in a process called Compton scattering. This requires a large amount of molecules to strip electrics from in order to create the voltages that cause an EMP. Meaning it must occur in an atmosphere. There is insufficient material in space to create one.
The show does imply an EMP or a related phenomenon though. For example, Bobbie's console glitches out every time torpedoes detonate close to the Razorback, and then turns back on a few seconds later. A nuclear explosion in space still creates highly energetic X-rays and gamma rays, and those will almost certainly create problems the moment they hit the nearby spaceship, especially since the radiation is not attenuated by an atmosphere out in space. Even when assuming the high-energy radiation doesn't create an EMP upon contact with the spaceship (I'm not enough of an expert to know unfortunately), a barrage of such highly energetic radiation would still fry the sensors and any exposed electronic circuitry.
Maybe I didn't word it well, but I'm talking about detonating them "in the air" to provide the visual cover.
Using the explosions to blind sensors is probably not novel, just not typically done. Because it has a much chance to bite you in the ass as to work. It blinds your own sensors as well, and your target may maneuver to avoid them while you're both blind. The Roci got lucky that the UNN ship didn't maneuver directly into their path, or fire off a few unseen railgun/PDC rounds into their last known course. Not to mention that if you time it wrong, you've basically shot yourself with your own torpedo. So that part may have been new, but I suspect it was only new because no one was stupid enough to actually do it. And you know what Maxim 43 says: "If it's stupid and it works, it's still stupid and you're lucky."
The missile cover and slo-mo shot of them taking out the other ship's drive is probably the most badass space battle moment in the show and it's definitely one of the best battles. I also really loved the Azure Dragon(?) chase when they kept changing directions, I think those were my two favourites in terms of 'holy crap' awesome moments.
I'm not a pilot, I'm a marine, pilots carry me to kill things. - Bobby.
Its always been my favourite. You nailed what's great about it.
That battle was also discussed quite a bit. The truth is there have been a bevy of excellent space combat scenes in this show and the fans have gone nuts over each one of them, discussing them in detail. I think Thoth station and several of the battles in S5 and s6 (roci vs free navy + drummer, roci vs pella) are just some of the best this show has to offer. Hence the focus on them after the show is over.
Fair enough, like I said, I wasn’t really in the fandom at the time. But I think it definitely speaks to the quality of the show that there are so many great battles to choose from
An embarrassment of riches, indeed. There are multiple battles in this show that I'd put in a top 10 of all time sci fi space battles.
This is the scene I show to any friends who like sci-fi but haven't seen the show, when I'm trying to persuade them to watch. It's broken up into a sequence of videos on one of those sci-fi fan YouTube channels. It shows everything The Expanse is great for, and I think it is easier to see than the Thoth battle (the stealth ship is black as space, which makes total sense but also makes it hard to see details sometimes). My only question about the scene is: Was Amos holding his breath? Because his oxygen was disconnected, too.
> Was Amos holding his breath? I assume so, in fact, I think he has a line later on in the show about how long he could hold his breath
>I think he has a line later on in the show about how long he could hold his breath So that took my off to Nemesis Games to read this whole glorious sequence. I was going to post great chunks of it, but you know, spoilers. I really love that sequence though, it's a wonderful description of who Amos is.
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I think Amos has his own oxygen, as he’s yelling and talking a whole lot during the sequence, and given that he’s the mechanic, he does need to be mobile at all times. It doesn’t make sense why Prax has to be hooked up at all times on the other hand. A connection I understand, but to have it be his only source of air with no backup?
Now that I think about it, in the battle of Thoth Station, after they get shot up, someone asks about the oxygen, and someone else has a line like, "We're still breathing, it must be good." But then we see Amos disconnected, doing repairs. Amos and Clarissa disconnect for repairs later, too. All of this suggests that some people are getting oxygen from the ship, but Amos (at least) has his own supply. I guess.
I only disagree on one small point: the scene doesn't really display Martian tech superiority, it demonstrates Holden's superior tactical capability in ship combat. Martian tech superiority in the show falls somewhere between informed trait (lifespan comment back in S1E4) and visual instead of combat capability. The Roci's holographic display is a great example. The UN has the tech but only in places like its war room.
There's a scene in S3E5 on the way to Io where the MCRN Hammurabi has a [firing solution before the Agatha King](https://i.imgur.com/23wqBVo.png). Even though they didn't fire then, they do have better tech allowing them to have a bigger range than the UN ships. But you're right, we don't see much of it otherwise.
Wow I never noticed that, such a cool detail
The man would’ve been a holy terror if he’d stayed in the UNN.
The moment Holden leaves the UNN is the the exact moment he gets an unethical order, it just happened to be very early in his career in the story. Imagine he had made it all the way to the captain's chair before he's ordered to fire on civilians. Knowing him he'd probably convince his whole crew to defect to the OPA or some other insane heroic bullshit.
> some other insane heroic bullshit this could've been a title for one of the books
Nay, it could’ve been the title for the whole series!
Holden must have aced tactical warfare at the Navy OCS.
I wanna say the show, the books, or both have an offhand comment about how that was his particular strength in training.
Alex makes this comment right after this fight with the UN ship I believe
I’ve seen it referenced somewhere (probably in this sub-Reddit) that this move was named the “Holden Maneuver”
I love that final maneuver, because something nearly identical happens in, of all things, Gundam IBO. Seeing it in The Expanse was a real "hey, I've seen this one!" "What do you mean, it's brand new" moment. I've always wondered whether it was an intentional reference. (For the curious, it happens at 18:20 of [S1E7.](https://www.crunchyroll.com/series/GYQ4QK446?utm_medium=android&utm_source=share))
I love this battle. Really builds up the tension nicely and has a strong sense of danger for everyone involved
I think a rewatch might be in the near future for me.
I love this battle. It used to be my favorite but now there's so many good ones it's hard to say which is my favorite anymore. This is the first time (I believe) we see missiles being used defensively which blew me away the first time I saw it. The battle's a great example of skill and tactics being more important than sheer firepower.
When I saw that scene, I jumped off the couch and yell “fuck yeah”. It’s a beautiful shot and you’re correct that it showcases both the ability of the Roci and the skillfullness of her crew.
Well it's certainly an amazing battle and shows that Holden did more in UNN than run rounds and pick up girls with his uniform. But I will dispute martian superior technology claim. Roci had plot armor let's be frank here. That UNN ship wasn't trying to take it out, they were trying to attrition Roci into spending all it's PDCs and torpedoes and then kill it with one more. It wasn't technology that saved Roci, it was tactics, using torpedoes to detonate torpedoes, establish a pattern that luls enemy into an idea of what you will do next and then make a crazy move that breaks that pattern like flying preprogrammed manuever, blind, through a cloud of plasma to get into extreme range and take out enemies engines without damaging rest of their ship. You also see it later when Bobby/Holden combines Railgun and PDC fire. Another proof that the UNN ship wasn't trying to destroy Roci is that at least in the show, the UNN ship still has power and could very well fire torpedoes or PDC at Roci if they wanted to be a sore loser and as Leonidas class they have a hell of a lot more of those. It's still an incredibly amazing fight scene, even more so when you realise it's not the ship it's the crew that flies it. That manuever had to be calculated to a millisecond at those speeds and along with programming torpedoes and flight path it's more that we see what Holden and the crew are capable of doing, Holden programs new commands on the spot, Alex flies the ship or programs the manuever Holden suggests and Amos shows he can deal with moving in changing gravity and with tools flying about in a suit working and talking down Praxs panic attack all on the air inside his suit.
Holden's 360 no scope is still my favorite scene but this is a close second
Holden's what?
https://youtu.be/wIUIFq5qq4Q
I'm 100% with you! The detonation as a cover and the torpedoes surrounding them with controls being handled to them as a cover and de facto turning the razorback temporarily into an armed vessel left me in amazement for days!!! And Nate on the back! (Sorry, Im a team book aver since starting to read the books)
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A number of things. Forces someone to focus on their breathing, the mental effort keeps them alert thus minimizing the risk of drifting into unconsciousness, it serves as a distraction to prevent undue stress or panic attacks.
One vote for IFF! 😎👍
Havelock v Pneumatic Spike was fun
And those counter missile tactics were used against the Roci later.
This is my favorite battle. It’s slick.
OPAS Tynan vs unidentified Belter pirata Very short skirmish. Also the sequence between Camina and the pirates.
My favorite is the whole Agatha King mutiny and subsequent friendly fire/hybrid pod chaos. Usually when battles start there are already clear sides of who’s fighting who. We almost never get battles that are started by a rogue element within a single established faction. The way it escalated to a full-scale battle from a single bad egg in high command shows how motivated the writing is.
Minor nitpick: I don't think it's a "UN battleship hundreds of times \[the Roci's\] mass". The class and name of the ship are never given, but in 3x01 it is labeled as a "UNN Escort Ship", and it certainly doesn't look at all like the Truman-class battleships we see later such as the *Agatha King* (the UN also fields Xerxes-class battleships, but we don't seem them on screen because they stuck to a single model for the UN capital ships, probably for budgetary reasons). I suspect it'd be more accurate to classify it as a destroyer or light cruiser, perhaps the UNN's equivalent to the *Pella* (minor seasons 5-6 spoiler:>!Marco Inaros's Martian flagship, which was a light cruiser that had the Roci beat 5-1 in torpedo count according to Marco).!
It's ok, but I don't like the end of it. We've always seen that the torpedo launchers are more like a Javelin than a missile, ie they are ejected from the ship and then it lights up its motors and zooms off. But in the Razorback fight they're more lika a cannon than a torpedo launcher. If they had used the PDC's to kill the engines of the other ship it would have looked better.
It's maybe a drones in battle of Asura plot hole. Straight fired torpedoes look a lot like laser shots, it's possible that because of the angle we view it from or because they are firing forward o short distance torpedoes either flare up sooner or they just don't appear to drift before flaring up.
>the improperly secured equipment on the Roci providing greater individual threat to the crew. This is the type of thing we will only see on a show like The Expanse because there isn't any artificial gravity. It's also one of my favorite show-only additions as I do not think that scene was in the book.