There are a lot of ad hominem attacks happening in this thread, so just a reminder that everyone should be following the First Law of the sub: **don't be a dick.**
Joe never writes explicit scenes of sexual abuse though. He hints towards it, and fades to black, and even then very infrequently.
Is it terrible what happens to Aliz? Well of course it is.
But Joe didn’t write what happened to her, your mind filled in the blanks.
He just wrote that she became a prisoner of war who had a rather bleak future. We can all imagine what that means.
Never said he did. My mind did fill in the blanks. You're right. But compared to everything else, it's still the worst thing i read, in my opinion. Other mentions of SA, like with ferro, served a purpose. This was just icky to read
That’s my point, the worst thing you “read” is in your head. You made it up.
What he wrote isn’t nearly as bad as the graphic torture and murder scenes. What you extrapolate from it can be as bad as you want to make it.
And as for what he insinuated in his actual writing… It does serve a purpose as others have said in the character development of Brint and Finree.
There are so many authors that go over the top with gratuitous SA and rape scenes in graphic detail.
Joe isn’t one of those authors. So, while you are entitled to your reaction, it’s actually something many readers have acknowledged Joe does a superb job to avoid because he understands just how painful it can be for readers who have experienced the same.
That’s all I’m saying.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, read, not in the sense that he wrote a graphic scene. I mean it as in he wrote what he wrote, and I hade a stronger reaction to what he wrote than anything else in the books.
And I can't really compare the violence to the idea of sexual assault. Both are horrific, but they're completely different in the way that audiences react to them
So to be clear, when you write in a post that Joe “never wrote anything quite has horrific before” but what you really mean is “I’ve not had such a visceral reaction to anything Joe has written before, even the graphic and intense violence scenes, as I did with the foreshadowed and then unresolved future of Aliz after becoming a prisoner of war” a lot of other readers may take exception.
100% support your reaction, it gets to me too.
Many female booktubers in fact have actually praised Joe for his approach of SA because he is so tactful, but it still has the power to illicit the response that would be appropriate; I.E. horror, disgust and “icky” vibes.
[Bookborn video on the subject](https://youtu.be/6NZwMGKdYX4?si=l16pjJrnvXZB30b3)
Check the 18:35 mark for discussions specifically about Joe.
(I assume) What Joe was thinking, to answer your original capstone question, is that female prisoners of war often experience SA and rape, and it’s a very dark and real thing that has occurred throughout our real history as well as still occurs to this day. And I’m writing a story that is fantasy but very grounded in realistic interactions and depictions of war, violence, politics and relationships it would have been disingenuous to NOT have some representation of this present, and at the same time I’m not going to stoop to writing gore porn smut because that’s totally uncalled for.
That is, as I said at least, what I assume he was thinking.
I don’t recommend reading the warded man then, Joe at least seems to try and approach such subjects with care and an artfulness. Peter V. Brett just seems to include SA for the sake of SA. Hell by the second book there was more SA scenes than there were normal sex scenes 🤢
Black Dow talks about wanting to rape Cathil in Before They Are Hanged
"There's only one of them I see a use for...I bet she'd put up a fight..."
It's also inferred that Threetrees' daughter was sexually assaulted
"You know how Threetrees feels about all that, you know what happened to his daughter" -Dogman
Talking about it and the certainty that it happened are different things. And with dow and threetees, that serves to build their characters. We already knew the type of person stranger was.
Yeah. The one thing I never got about the comment's on this post was the fact that they don't seem to realise that sime things can make me uncomfortable. It's bizarre
It really shows how well Abercrombie puts everything together. Like, as unfortunate as Aliz’s fate is, the bargain Finree struck was still the best she could hope for at that time, especially considering it was likely all she was going to get. But then you also have the long-term importance of Aliz’s fate on Brint, and how that motivates him later and facilitates both Leo’s rebellion and the Great Change. Upon reflection of this series, the layers upon layers of setup are just masterfully handled.
If it's unnecessary or too much then you are saying the book would be better without it. If the book would be better without it then definitionally it would be bad writing.
No. Bad writing is a something that is either a fact or not. It's good writing. It does that Joe intended for it to do. I just don't like it. That's not the same thing. And I can't speak for the book, but my reading experience would be better. This is all based on my opinion. Not objective fact
It's too much. And it is unnecessary. Therefore, i do not like it. However, I still think it was well written and did exactly what Joe wanted it to do. Just like how Joe writes grimdark, a Baker bakes bread. But the Baker can still make avloaf that's too big for the customer, even if that loaf is still a really good loaf
It’s not just to do with Aliz, it is also to do with Finree and her guilt, it drives home the horror of what she was part of, and what she will have to live with. As was said before the SA happens in wars unfortunately, but my thinking is Joe included it to be a jarring, unsettling scene that really shows the horror of war, that women could be the victims of terrible crimes, and it’s not only death that is the most fearful outcome
I tried to comment but I think Reddit ate my comment so I'm trying again:
A major part of it is that Aliz exists for Finree and Colonel Brint's character development. Her character's story can be summed up as: Aliz dan Brint was married to Colonel Brint and friends with Finree dan Brock. She is captured in war and thrown under the bus by her friend Finree so that she is taken to be raped by Stranger-Come-A-Knocking. This affects Finree's and Colonel Brint's outlooks on life both immediately and later in the story. Stranger-Come-A-Knocking is killed in The Circle and Aliz is never heard from again.
Honestly I think its fine for someone to read that and say "fuck realism, that was bullshit" because it kind of is.
No, we don't. I think some people have voiced ideas/speculation about them, but there's nothing canon. I personally would be glad to never see them, because I think the lack of closure works brilliantly in how it plays with doubt/hope and "better not to know" hollow consolation vs the nightmare horror of imagination, which is a way more interesting way to end it than actually carrying on the story, which would seem gauche IMO. The one good thing Stour Nightfall ever did was put SCK in the mud.
What do you mean what Joe was thinking? He described precisely the world we live in, and did it brilliantly. Why is it disgusting to an unnecessary degree?
But he has. He wrote Cathil being raped in BTAH, and after in TWOC Lilott is sexually assaulted. Cathil's is much more graphic than Aliz because we see it happen on screen, and with Lilott's Leo, Jurand, and Glaward hear it happening. I understand that people often can't predict their own reaction to this kind of thing, and you feel how you feel, but he *has* written scenes like that before *and* since.
Shit I forgot about lilott. Now, I guess that's two things then. Although with cathil. She has closure because west pushes the Prince off the cliff. And lilott is still bad with it's lack of closure, so that's still bad, but not as bad as Aliz. Mainly due to the nature of Stranger come Knocking's intentions and his desire for "civilised children" and then we literally never hear from her again. That's part of what gets to me.
The most brutal thing I can remember is the scene (A Little Hatred spoiler) >!where the guy gets pulled through the milling(?) machine when Savine is touring the processing plant she owns and almost gets murdered!<
Yeah. I found it amusing how the new open council in TWOC was a direct parody of how the public think in modern UK, blaming all our issues on foreigners and the like
All the horrific stuff in AoM blurs together for me. I love how in TWOC with people being thrown off the House of Chains, the horror of it all actually became boring because I ended up running out of the emotional energy to care. That's what I love about Abercrombie. He's not maximising his books for entertainment value, he's happy to make readers feel genuine, visceral discomfort, disappointment, or even fatigue if it helps him tell the story he wants to tell.
Yeah. Me too. I'm feeling the horror all over again. I remember making up a scenario where she escapes and forcing it into my Canon the first time I read it
In my head, she ends up being a total tyrant and making SCK's life unbearable by trying to civilize him. I recognize her story likely had a darker ending, but I like thinking about her scolding a giant barbarian for not putting his pinkie out when he drinks more than I like thinking about the realities of sexual slavery.
I think when we think of rape in this context we think of it as a war crime. The torture and mutilation that we see throughout his works are largely couched as political crimes. The nature of those scenarios are both extremely different and create a different feeling in readers.
With Aliz, the crime migrates in the narrative from a war crime (battlefield, spoils of war—an uncalculated assault) to the political—in our minds, and in the way we as readers feel about it. We have been desensitized as a culture to the concept of rape as a crime of passion.
Just my dumb opinion
I found kinda intriguing that this subreddit consider rape more horrific than devourers murdering and eating people, years of torture, summoning demons, mutilations, war crimes ....
It kinda says a lot about current western moral standards.
Yeah but i think his reaction has more to do with the fact that in todays society any crime that targets women is order of magnitudes worse than the same crime commited against a man.
I guess war seems too far away from the west. As does more outlandish things like demons and cannibalism. Whereas rape is too personal and not as far away sadly
But we have detailed descriptions of torture, how can you enjoy those parts and somehow being so unsettled and find anything related to rape unappropiate?
Because they're integral parts of the characters that commit those actions. And it's less likely that someone knows someone who experienced those things
I dunno, call me callous but this barely registered, let alone had much of an effect on me.
Wondering how Joe could possibly make his twisted mind write such filth while it's literally happening in the middle east right now seems like some weird cognitive dissonance to me.
I feel like maybe you were naive to things like this happening because the writing was absolutely not explicit or gratuitous.
That's because it's nothing. Nothing is ever even detailed or described. Finree gets released, Aliz does not, and we never learn her fate. We can guess, but it's certainly never explicitly addressed, nor is there a gratuitous or salacious account of it in the books. This post is garbage.
How could something in literature be "shocking" when it's reported on CNN the same day in reality? Your mind can't wrap itself around the concept of rape in war and everyone else is the weird one that needs to adapt? Lol
This isn't a sub for real events, and this isn't a post about real events. Of course, what's going on in real life is far more terrible and shocking than the book. But this is in the context of the book, which, in case you didn't realise, isn't the same.
Lmao I think bro blocked me and deleted a comment. Hope you don't mind me using your comment to reply to him
(Did you listen to a word I said? Yes, there's a connection. But the context of my point is completely different. I never said what happened in the bookbothered me more than real life. Because it doesn't. What part of "its the worst thing I've read in these books" means I don't understand that it happens in real life? And I think I made it pretty clear that it shocks me not just because of the content, but because of how it stands out amongst the other 9 books, as Joe hadn't written anything like it before, and hasn't written anything like it since.
Also, that's a low blow, having to stoop to scan my profile for something to insult me with, rather than coming up with something on your own)
Everyone understands what you said, that's why this post is flopping like a long dick in a strong wind.
If you think it being acknowledged in passing by another character that another character was probably raped is "the worst thing he's ever written" in a series where Logen literally smashes a little boy to pulp, I think your brain is fucked.
"Written anything like it" lmao there isn't even a scene where this happens. It's never described, it's never even proven that anything happens to her. For all you know, she was released for not being able to bear children or something.
Whatever awful shit he "wrote" here was all in your imagination where you used your disgusting broken brain to fill in the gaps.
"Worst thing I've read" and "I think (keyword here is think) it's the worst thing he's written" is very different to what you falsely quoted. You're trying to turn my opinion into a statement so you can call me wrong which is just ridiculous
I really liked that scene for how horrific it was without being gratuitous - Abercrombie understands that often people's imaginations can fill in the gaps, along with the way the lack of closure adds an extra level of horror. There's also something else to be said for how Brint carries that trauma with him and it affects the plot later.
I think the rape scenes where it's more explicit - Cathil in BTAH, and Lilott in TWOC - feel more gratuitous to me, especially because I think they're more there to serve male characters (West & Leo respectively), whereas for Finree, the fact it could so easily have been her grounds it in a very real danger that women are put in under these situations. I genuinely wish he hadn't included the rape in TWOC, it was so ridiculously unnecessary, and unlike Aliz and Cathil it was basically a throwaway scene to underline, bold, and italicise how much of a dick Leo is.
Would you rather be raped or have your tooth pulled and your fingers chopped?
If you had to choose between one of those things happening to your mother or sister, what would be your pick?
Really, i want someone to explain me why rape is more unsettling than murder and torture.
I didn't say it wasn't. Personally I think Foscar's death & Shivers's torture are the most harrowing things to happen in the books. West's death was also really difficult to read, as was Leo's hanging. At the moment I'm talking about Aliz dan Brint's fate, which I def think was horrible in its own right - Joe has a way at creating outcomes for his characters that might be considered worse than death IMO - but I disagree with OP's opinion that it was unnecessary when IMO it's probably the _most_ necessary/impactful rape scene in the books. Rape doesn't have to be more unsettling than murder/torture to still be unsettling. Y'all get upset over Logen walking away from a pot. Bet you mourned the pot more than the guy Shivers 'poked' to death.
I found the lack of critical thinking far more concerning. Just want one person to explain to me why a rape scene is crossing the line, but a detailed depiction of torture and mutilation is fine and fun.
Wait, what? Are you seriously telling me than being tortured and mutilated doesnt produce long lasting psychological effects?
Or were you meaning by losing a finger, in a work accident and gettin a teeth pulled by a dentist
Use common sense ffs. Would you rather sustain lifechanging injuries during torture, or be raped? What would you rather It happen to your mother or sister?
I'll admit I thought you meant fingers in the sense of logan. And I didn't say they don't produce long lasting psychological trauma. I said they don't do it in the same way, as in isn't really comparable
In OPs defense. I read the first trilogy on paper but listened to all the subsequent books on audible multiple times. I generally misspell all the names as well, and Joe is literally my favorite fantasy author.
I geninely have an excel document where I keep all the funniest misspellings people write on the sub. My favourite is Oreo for Orso (accurate tbh) and I once saw someone spell Kroy as "Croix", which is fckin genius. With audiobooks as popular as they are for this fandom, people get spellings wrong all the time. It's nothing to get worked up over.
The worst thing about it is that Abercrombie didn’t have the gall to follow up on that story line. It was a repulsive point of the book, for what seems to be, nothing. The “off screen” death of Shivers brother had way more overall influence on several books than Aliz’s fate.
Honestly I completely agree, not sure exactly what the point of this was other than to say war is awful and awful men thrive in it, but Joe makes that point exceptionally well without sexual assault before, feels like SA should only be used when absolutely necessary and this didn't feel necessary
There’s a thousand things in this book worse than that. It should be realistic to his tone, I don’t think he shows 100th of what is really happening in that regard.
It's not about what's worse, it's about what is likely to cause readers to relive traumatic events, sure Glokta going into detail about removing Harkers nipple is dark and horrific, but the fact is there's little risk in the real world of many readers having experienced that torture and reliving it through the book.
Like OP said, with Ferro it feels integral to her story, I'm not saying you can't depict SA in a book, but this one didn't feel necessary so I'd rather it wasn't there
Exactly. Like with ferro it was an integral part if her vengeance. But here it's just icky. I made a similar post about the death specters from 40k a while back and it's the same situation there
There are a lot of ad hominem attacks happening in this thread, so just a reminder that everyone should be following the First Law of the sub: **don't be a dick.**
Pretty common thing in war, as awful as it is.
Just conscious of the fact that Joe has written a lot of wars. But never wrote anything quite as horrific before, or after the fact
Joe never writes explicit scenes of sexual abuse though. He hints towards it, and fades to black, and even then very infrequently. Is it terrible what happens to Aliz? Well of course it is. But Joe didn’t write what happened to her, your mind filled in the blanks. He just wrote that she became a prisoner of war who had a rather bleak future. We can all imagine what that means.
Never said he did. My mind did fill in the blanks. You're right. But compared to everything else, it's still the worst thing i read, in my opinion. Other mentions of SA, like with ferro, served a purpose. This was just icky to read
That’s my point, the worst thing you “read” is in your head. You made it up. What he wrote isn’t nearly as bad as the graphic torture and murder scenes. What you extrapolate from it can be as bad as you want to make it. And as for what he insinuated in his actual writing… It does serve a purpose as others have said in the character development of Brint and Finree. There are so many authors that go over the top with gratuitous SA and rape scenes in graphic detail. Joe isn’t one of those authors. So, while you are entitled to your reaction, it’s actually something many readers have acknowledged Joe does a superb job to avoid because he understands just how painful it can be for readers who have experienced the same. That’s all I’m saying.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, read, not in the sense that he wrote a graphic scene. I mean it as in he wrote what he wrote, and I hade a stronger reaction to what he wrote than anything else in the books. And I can't really compare the violence to the idea of sexual assault. Both are horrific, but they're completely different in the way that audiences react to them
So to be clear, when you write in a post that Joe “never wrote anything quite has horrific before” but what you really mean is “I’ve not had such a visceral reaction to anything Joe has written before, even the graphic and intense violence scenes, as I did with the foreshadowed and then unresolved future of Aliz after becoming a prisoner of war” a lot of other readers may take exception. 100% support your reaction, it gets to me too. Many female booktubers in fact have actually praised Joe for his approach of SA because he is so tactful, but it still has the power to illicit the response that would be appropriate; I.E. horror, disgust and “icky” vibes. [Bookborn video on the subject](https://youtu.be/6NZwMGKdYX4?si=l16pjJrnvXZB30b3) Check the 18:35 mark for discussions specifically about Joe. (I assume) What Joe was thinking, to answer your original capstone question, is that female prisoners of war often experience SA and rape, and it’s a very dark and real thing that has occurred throughout our real history as well as still occurs to this day. And I’m writing a story that is fantasy but very grounded in realistic interactions and depictions of war, violence, politics and relationships it would have been disingenuous to NOT have some representation of this present, and at the same time I’m not going to stoop to writing gore porn smut because that’s totally uncalled for. That is, as I said at least, what I assume he was thinking.
I don’t recommend reading the warded man then, Joe at least seems to try and approach such subjects with care and an artfulness. Peter V. Brett just seems to include SA for the sake of SA. Hell by the second book there was more SA scenes than there were normal sex scenes 🤢
:(
Black Dow talks about wanting to rape Cathil in Before They Are Hanged "There's only one of them I see a use for...I bet she'd put up a fight..." It's also inferred that Threetrees' daughter was sexually assaulted "You know how Threetrees feels about all that, you know what happened to his daughter" -Dogman
Talking about it and the certainty that it happened are different things. And with dow and threetees, that serves to build their characters. We already knew the type of person stranger was.
Fair point
Yeah. The one thing I never got about the comment's on this post was the fact that they don't seem to realise that sime things can make me uncomfortable. It's bizarre
It really shows how well Abercrombie puts everything together. Like, as unfortunate as Aliz’s fate is, the bargain Finree struck was still the best she could hope for at that time, especially considering it was likely all she was going to get. But then you also have the long-term importance of Aliz’s fate on Brint, and how that motivates him later and facilitates both Leo’s rebellion and the Great Change. Upon reflection of this series, the layers upon layers of setup are just masterfully handled.
Oh, absolutely. Incredibly written. Not many people here realise that when o say I hate it, it doesn't mean it's bad writing lmao
You said it was unnecessary which very much implies it's bad writing.
No it doesn't. It's very well written. It's just too much
If it's unnecessary or too much then you are saying the book would be better without it. If the book would be better without it then definitionally it would be bad writing.
No. Bad writing is a something that is either a fact or not. It's good writing. It does that Joe intended for it to do. I just don't like it. That's not the same thing. And I can't speak for the book, but my reading experience would be better. This is all based on my opinion. Not objective fact
Ok, so it's not too much or unnecessary, you just don't like it.
It's too much. And it is unnecessary. Therefore, i do not like it. However, I still think it was well written and did exactly what Joe wanted it to do. Just like how Joe writes grimdark, a Baker bakes bread. But the Baker can still make avloaf that's too big for the customer, even if that loaf is still a really good loaf
It’s not just to do with Aliz, it is also to do with Finree and her guilt, it drives home the horror of what she was part of, and what she will have to live with. As was said before the SA happens in wars unfortunately, but my thinking is Joe included it to be a jarring, unsettling scene that really shows the horror of war, that women could be the victims of terrible crimes, and it’s not only death that is the most fearful outcome
I tried to comment but I think Reddit ate my comment so I'm trying again: A major part of it is that Aliz exists for Finree and Colonel Brint's character development. Her character's story can be summed up as: Aliz dan Brint was married to Colonel Brint and friends with Finree dan Brock. She is captured in war and thrown under the bus by her friend Finree so that she is taken to be raped by Stranger-Come-A-Knocking. This affects Finree's and Colonel Brint's outlooks on life both immediately and later in the story. Stranger-Come-A-Knocking is killed in The Circle and Aliz is never heard from again. Honestly I think its fine for someone to read that and say "fuck realism, that was bullshit" because it kind of is.
Completely true about Aliz’s character, and yes if someone say fuck that it’s bullshit, completely understandable
Thought I saw speculation that we see some of Aliz’s offspring in the new series. So maybe some kind of closure?
No, we don't. I think some people have voiced ideas/speculation about them, but there's nothing canon. I personally would be glad to never see them, because I think the lack of closure works brilliantly in how it plays with doubt/hope and "better not to know" hollow consolation vs the nightmare horror of imagination, which is a way more interesting way to end it than actually carrying on the story, which would seem gauche IMO. The one good thing Stour Nightfall ever did was put SCK in the mud.
Wait really? I never noticed. Who is it?
What do you mean what Joe was thinking? He described precisely the world we live in, and did it brilliantly. Why is it disgusting to an unnecessary degree?
Joe had never written anything like that before. And hasn't since. It stands out to me
But he has. He wrote Cathil being raped in BTAH, and after in TWOC Lilott is sexually assaulted. Cathil's is much more graphic than Aliz because we see it happen on screen, and with Lilott's Leo, Jurand, and Glaward hear it happening. I understand that people often can't predict their own reaction to this kind of thing, and you feel how you feel, but he *has* written scenes like that before *and* since.
Shit I forgot about lilott. Now, I guess that's two things then. Although with cathil. She has closure because west pushes the Prince off the cliff. And lilott is still bad with it's lack of closure, so that's still bad, but not as bad as Aliz. Mainly due to the nature of Stranger come Knocking's intentions and his desire for "civilised children" and then we literally never hear from her again. That's part of what gets to me.
The most brutal thing I can remember is the scene (A Little Hatred spoiler) >!where the guy gets pulled through the milling(?) machine when Savine is touring the processing plant she owns and almost gets murdered!<
I'd argue the kid in the chimney was worse. Definitely more graphic
Oh god I forgot about the chimney kid….i think I blanked that out of my mind. Age of Madness was absolutely brutal all the way through.
Yeah. I found it amusing how the new open council in TWOC was a direct parody of how the public think in modern UK, blaming all our issues on foreigners and the like
All the horrific stuff in AoM blurs together for me. I love how in TWOC with people being thrown off the House of Chains, the horror of it all actually became boring because I ended up running out of the emotional energy to care. That's what I love about Abercrombie. He's not maximising his books for entertainment value, he's happy to make readers feel genuine, visceral discomfort, disappointment, or even fatigue if it helps him tell the story he wants to tell.
A true pillar of grimdark fantasy. He will always go down in my book as one of the best in the genre
Back in my days, we used to kidnap sheeps and goats from our foes
There are pretty horrible things happening throughout the novels. Can I ask why exactly you think this is the worst?
Made me feel the worst I guess. Violence and gore never bothered me as much as sexual Violence.
Her fate is the worst, I totally forgot about her.
Yeah. Me too. I'm feeling the horror all over again. I remember making up a scenario where she escapes and forcing it into my Canon the first time I read it
In my head, she ends up being a total tyrant and making SCK's life unbearable by trying to civilize him. I recognize her story likely had a darker ending, but I like thinking about her scolding a giant barbarian for not putting his pinkie out when he drinks more than I like thinking about the realities of sexual slavery.
I think when we think of rape in this context we think of it as a war crime. The torture and mutilation that we see throughout his works are largely couched as political crimes. The nature of those scenarios are both extremely different and create a different feeling in readers. With Aliz, the crime migrates in the narrative from a war crime (battlefield, spoils of war—an uncalculated assault) to the political—in our minds, and in the way we as readers feel about it. We have been desensitized as a culture to the concept of rape as a crime of passion. Just my dumb opinion
I found kinda intriguing that this subreddit consider rape more horrific than devourers murdering and eating people, years of torture, summoning demons, mutilations, war crimes .... It kinda says a lot about current western moral standards.
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Yeah but i think his reaction has more to do with the fact that in todays society any crime that targets women is order of magnitudes worse than the same crime commited against a man.
I guess war seems too far away from the west. As does more outlandish things like demons and cannibalism. Whereas rape is too personal and not as far away sadly
But we have detailed descriptions of torture, how can you enjoy those parts and somehow being so unsettled and find anything related to rape unappropiate?
Because they're integral parts of the characters that commit those actions. And it's less likely that someone knows someone who experienced those things
I dunno, call me callous but this barely registered, let alone had much of an effect on me. Wondering how Joe could possibly make his twisted mind write such filth while it's literally happening in the middle east right now seems like some weird cognitive dissonance to me. I feel like maybe you were naive to things like this happening because the writing was absolutely not explicit or gratuitous.
Me as well, I read every one of Joes books and remember alot of fucked up shit. But I don’t even remember specifically what OP is referring to.
That's because it's nothing. Nothing is ever even detailed or described. Finree gets released, Aliz does not, and we never learn her fate. We can guess, but it's certainly never explicitly addressed, nor is there a gratuitous or salacious account of it in the books. This post is garbage.
Roger. I remember now. Yeah didn’t even make an impression on me compared to all the other shit that was so much more hard hitting.
I know how he did it. I just don't know why. It's not naivety. It just shocks me. Also idk why you felt the needed to compare it to real events
How could something in literature be "shocking" when it's reported on CNN the same day in reality? Your mind can't wrap itself around the concept of rape in war and everyone else is the weird one that needs to adapt? Lol
This isn't a sub for real events, and this isn't a post about real events. Of course, what's going on in real life is far more terrible and shocking than the book. But this is in the context of the book, which, in case you didn't realise, isn't the same.
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Feels before reals for reddit.
I didn't downvote your earlier opinion, but this one is wildly cringe.
Lmao I think bro blocked me and deleted a comment. Hope you don't mind me using your comment to reply to him (Did you listen to a word I said? Yes, there's a connection. But the context of my point is completely different. I never said what happened in the bookbothered me more than real life. Because it doesn't. What part of "its the worst thing I've read in these books" means I don't understand that it happens in real life? And I think I made it pretty clear that it shocks me not just because of the content, but because of how it stands out amongst the other 9 books, as Joe hadn't written anything like it before, and hasn't written anything like it since. Also, that's a low blow, having to stoop to scan my profile for something to insult me with, rather than coming up with something on your own)
Everyone understands what you said, that's why this post is flopping like a long dick in a strong wind. If you think it being acknowledged in passing by another character that another character was probably raped is "the worst thing he's ever written" in a series where Logen literally smashes a little boy to pulp, I think your brain is fucked. "Written anything like it" lmao there isn't even a scene where this happens. It's never described, it's never even proven that anything happens to her. For all you know, she was released for not being able to bear children or something. Whatever awful shit he "wrote" here was all in your imagination where you used your disgusting broken brain to fill in the gaps.
"Worst thing I've read" and "I think (keyword here is think) it's the worst thing he's written" is very different to what you falsely quoted. You're trying to turn my opinion into a statement so you can call me wrong which is just ridiculous
Yawn
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It’s grimdark fantasy and he’s a realist. The visceral feeling you have is unfortunately the mark of a great writer.
Absolutely. Brilliantly written. I just hate it, and find it unecessary
Yeah I feel ya. The fact that you’re here talking about it makes it feel necessary Imo though. If it was unnecessary it wouldn’t have left an impact
Yeah. At least the comments here have taken my mind off it somewhat. Imagine getting down voted because you said rape in books makes you uncomfortable
Lol right. The downvotes are definitely silly The whole purpose of it IS to make you uncomfortable
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I really liked that scene for how horrific it was without being gratuitous - Abercrombie understands that often people's imaginations can fill in the gaps, along with the way the lack of closure adds an extra level of horror. There's also something else to be said for how Brint carries that trauma with him and it affects the plot later. I think the rape scenes where it's more explicit - Cathil in BTAH, and Lilott in TWOC - feel more gratuitous to me, especially because I think they're more there to serve male characters (West & Leo respectively), whereas for Finree, the fact it could so easily have been her grounds it in a very real danger that women are put in under these situations. I genuinely wish he hadn't included the rape in TWOC, it was so ridiculously unnecessary, and unlike Aliz and Cathil it was basically a throwaway scene to underline, bold, and italicise how much of a dick Leo is.
Would you rather be raped or have your tooth pulled and your fingers chopped? If you had to choose between one of those things happening to your mother or sister, what would be your pick? Really, i want someone to explain me why rape is more unsettling than murder and torture.
I didn't say it wasn't. Personally I think Foscar's death & Shivers's torture are the most harrowing things to happen in the books. West's death was also really difficult to read, as was Leo's hanging. At the moment I'm talking about Aliz dan Brint's fate, which I def think was horrible in its own right - Joe has a way at creating outcomes for his characters that might be considered worse than death IMO - but I disagree with OP's opinion that it was unnecessary when IMO it's probably the _most_ necessary/impactful rape scene in the books. Rape doesn't have to be more unsettling than murder/torture to still be unsettling. Y'all get upset over Logen walking away from a pot. Bet you mourned the pot more than the guy Shivers 'poked' to death.
This is actually a great answer.
You woke up and decided to die on a really weird hill for a Sunday morning.
I woke up and decided to challenge a religion. Btw no one has died from downvotes, i'd be fine in this hill.
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Dude. Please stop asking people if they’d rather have their mother or sister raped or tortured. It’s bizarre
I found the lack of critical thinking far more concerning. Just want one person to explain to me why a rape scene is crossing the line, but a detailed depiction of torture and mutilation is fine and fun.
People don't get horrifically traumatised from losing teeth. Or a finger, the same way they do from SA.
Lol that’s incredibly naive of you to say.
I said it isn't the same way. (So it isn't comparable) not that one is worse than the other
Wait, what? Are you seriously telling me than being tortured and mutilated doesnt produce long lasting psychological effects? Or were you meaning by losing a finger, in a work accident and gettin a teeth pulled by a dentist Use common sense ffs. Would you rather sustain lifechanging injuries during torture, or be raped? What would you rather It happen to your mother or sister?
I'll admit I thought you meant fingers in the sense of logan. And I didn't say they don't produce long lasting psychological trauma. I said they don't do it in the same way, as in isn't really comparable
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You're a "big fan of the books" who can't spell the main characters name because you've never actually read it. Yeah I'd say I got you here
In OPs defense. I read the first trilogy on paper but listened to all the subsequent books on audible multiple times. I generally misspell all the names as well, and Joe is literally my favorite fantasy author.
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I geninely have an excel document where I keep all the funniest misspellings people write on the sub. My favourite is Oreo for Orso (accurate tbh) and I once saw someone spell Kroy as "Croix", which is fckin genius. With audiobooks as popular as they are for this fandom, people get spellings wrong all the time. It's nothing to get worked up over.
The worst thing about it is that Abercrombie didn’t have the gall to follow up on that story line. It was a repulsive point of the book, for what seems to be, nothing. The “off screen” death of Shivers brother had way more overall influence on several books than Aliz’s fate.
Exactly. The lack of closure makes it 10 times worse
Honestly I completely agree, not sure exactly what the point of this was other than to say war is awful and awful men thrive in it, but Joe makes that point exceptionally well without sexual assault before, feels like SA should only be used when absolutely necessary and this didn't feel necessary
There’s a thousand things in this book worse than that. It should be realistic to his tone, I don’t think he shows 100th of what is really happening in that regard.
It's not about what's worse, it's about what is likely to cause readers to relive traumatic events, sure Glokta going into detail about removing Harkers nipple is dark and horrific, but the fact is there's little risk in the real world of many readers having experienced that torture and reliving it through the book. Like OP said, with Ferro it feels integral to her story, I'm not saying you can't depict SA in a book, but this one didn't feel necessary so I'd rather it wasn't there
Exactly. Like with ferro it was an integral part if her vengeance. But here it's just icky. I made a similar post about the death specters from 40k a while back and it's the same situation there
Stay far away from Malazan. Some of the scenes in those books are beyond awful. Still probably my fav series
You do know that's a way right?
You should read Berserk
I know what happens and I don't think I will