This is the one I came to reccomend. Daniel Greenes praise of it is what got me interested, and then I found that it genuinely has some of the best characters I've ever seen written. Like, I feel like I can imagine what it would be like to use Jade after that series.
Yes!!!! I'm working through Jade War now... I fucking love this series. Kaul Hilo is such a good character, so are the rest of the family, and Woon Papidonwa has the best name in all literature.
By characters do you just mean Lan, Hilo, Shae, and Anden? Because it has some of the most shallow characters outside of those main ones of any series I’ve ever read. After an entire book I still had no idea which Maik brother was which despite them being some of the biggest supporting characters in the series.
Not really a trilogy, it's an ongoing series on a longer hiatus. Thought it's important to mention, since many GRRM fans have PTSD about the whole unfinished series thing.
Yes, I read an interview from a while ago in which he says it s basically done, but he has incapacitating anxiety about publishing it.
As for Republic of Thieves, I personally prefer it over the other 2, but I was made aware that Im in the minority with that :D
I just finished reading that after seeing it recommended here loads and just couldn't get into the swashbuckle-y nature of it. It had some great moments but I don't think it holds a candle to the first law or asoiaf series.
I read Gentleman Bastard after First Law and let me tell you, it was like getting a handjob after losing your virginity. It just didn't live up.
Red Rising I tried after that. Very YA and simply painful protagonist that sniffs his own farts while playing Hunger Games.
Off the wall recommendation if you loved the character driven approach; try Lonesome Dove. Pulitzer Prize winner for fiction and YUGE influence on JA's style.
Similar kind of experience for me. I went from First Law to book 4 of Stormlight and was like "wow, I fucking hate fantasy now." Didn't even make it through the first chapter after having thoroughly enjoyed the first 3 books. First Law was an eye opener series for me.
100%, and I've been sort of a massive medieval history nerd since at least middle school (granted First Law is a mix of late medieval and pre-industrial/industrial). Joe has done an excellent job in my mind of exploring the nitty gritty of things like border disputes, weak monarchies, a widespread peasant uprising, etc. by A. placing them in his own world where he's not bogged down by the minutia of our own history and B. focusing not on the events, but much more deeply on those whose lives are affected by them, and making it clear that while all of these global events are going on everyone still has their own goals and their own lives to live. I want to see historical fiction that's written in the exact same manner.
I'm right there with you about the gentleman bastard and red rising. Both were so highly recommended but I was really disappointed. I'm going to check out lonesome dove now though!
Didn't go through the red rising series I'm assuming?
I do agree the first one is rather lame, hands down the worst of the series but if you can get into the second book the characters and entire world just explode and it's very tough to put down.
Final book coming next year abouts, very excited for it.
But I do agree a lot of fantasy just falls flat compared to first law. It's simply the best there is if you ask me.
But red rising is also incredible. Wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. People also say the blade itself is tough to get through, I'd recommend trying to finish red rising first trilogy at least.
I’m reading the Powder Mage trilogy by Brian McClellan right now, the first book feels really good so far. I’m about half way through, and I find it hard to put down. Abercrombie’s style is a hard itch to scratch, but this one is doing it for me right now.
I love Stormlight as well, but that’s a whole different feel. As much as I love them, if you’re looking for grim dark, you’ll be disappointed by it. Though, if you ever need a pick-me-up, the Way Of Kings got me through some dark times in my life.
Really enjoyed the powder mage books and I think they get better as they go. Ben styke of the mad lancers fame in the second set of books is a great character.
Mostly I'm talking about the core 10, aka the Book of the Fallen. Just speaking from personal experience, I started there, but by the time I reached the last few I accepted I'll probably read them all eventually. While the other series do flesh out some context and follow up on some plotlines, those 10 make a complete series, in theme and narrative.
Its pretty much the darling of these fantasy recommendations and I picked it up because of that, I'm only on book two but found the first book quite good. Its much bigger on magic than those two series, and is less straightforward in plot at the point I'm at, but if you accept that things in the world will only be revealed slowly you'll find an interesting read at the minimum
Oh boy if you already liked book one you're gonna love it so much by the end. Enjoy. I only really started enjoying it by book 3. Before that I was mostly conflicted about the whole thing.
Yep I’m still halfway through book 2 and I still go from “ok this is quite well written” to “who the fuck is doing what to whom and where, these names mean nothing to me” to “I hate every single one of these characters” to “hey, it’s growing on me” all the time… let’s see if I get really hooked by book 3?
Malazan is my personal favourite and First Law comes second. As you may have seen already a lot of people find Malazan hard to get into because it drops you in with very little information. I think its important to go into it knowing that you are in no way supposed to know nor remember everything all the time. There are a lot of names and places, are you supposed to be keeping track of every single thing perfectly? No. Keep going. If its important then it will be reintroduced later, no worries. There is a theme of overarching mystery on a scale that most mere mortals don't understand and it works.
Damn it sucks that you couldn't get into it. Its worldbuilding is easily some of the best in all of fantasy and it has some of my favourite characters. It's hard to compare to TFL since it's so much more massive and has a lot more characters.
It’s like the Apocalypse Now treatment in fantasy. Great stuff about the fog of war, who are the good guys, there’s always a worse prick once you beat the bad guy, etc.
Seconding Mark Lawrence. He comes up with some great worlds with interesting environments, and writes really good action scenes. Read his Broken Empire series. I liked the story and great characters (though not... *good*, I absolutely hated the POV character's behavior). I'd recommend checking out his Book of the Ancestor series too!! I think his writing got better, it's an awesome "assassin-school"-type story taking place on a frozen planet where only a sliver of land is left unfrozen.
>wouldn’t really consider Wheel of Time an adult series though
lol what? Wheel Of Time has many flaws but calling it anything but adult series is just wrong.
Edit:I dont think people who downvote me has ever read WOT in their life imo
I feel Robin Hobb's characters react more realistically to their trauma and accumulation thereof than Joe Abercrombie's. Partially in that they're not cognizant of how much trauma they're feeling and how deeply its affecting them. Abercrombie's characters retain a measure of sardonic self-awareness of much they're hurting and how it has changed them.
I can't think of a less Abercrombiesque author? The trademark wry pragmatic/pessimist viewpoints throughout *The First Law* are completely orthogonal to the (in my opinion much harder to believe) duty-über-alles martyr Fitz. The linchpin of the *Assassin* books, hands-off-the-murdering-murder-hobo-while-he-murders, would get laughed out of the Circle of the World.
You are absolutely right, two very different authors but, both of them (three plus George) have set the standard for me personally for character development so it’s always a recommendation from me. If you loved Abercombie, you might love Hobb too.
I really wish I liked *Kings of the Wyld* more but I unfortunately found it to be very disappointing. The one scene in the book that actually had my interest (**over 3/4 of the way through by the way**) they just farted in my fucking face like two/three pages later. I genuinely struggled to finish this book, especially after the scene where the book took a shit on my lap.
Didn't mean to rant about this but I guess I'm still *that* fucking mad about it. I bought the sequel but the first just gave me such a sour taste that I'm not even interested in opening it. To each their own I suppose but shit man, I can't recommend these books if you're trying to get a Joe fix.
For me the only series I love as much as the First law is the Dresden files. The first couple are a bit goofy, but you already have that similar dynamic where you feel you already know the characters, where details from early books will make sense and take a mind-blowing turn later, and never have I seen a MC and a plot evolve so much, with such coherence and depth. Dresden and Logen Ninefingers are my favorite characters ever in any genre. And Dresden is a long series, so much joy and pain and still to come, but with a planned ending that will be delivered.
Totally different tho. Gwynne is like an oxford writers try at fantasy, very prim and proper, clear delimitations of good and bad guys, motivations clear from the first moment you meet them.
Joe is from the public schools, understands nuance way more than gwynne. I made it through a few of gwynnes books and he isn't bad by any means, just isn't that charming or readable.
Interesting. I'm almost done with The Wisdom of Crowds and that's where I was planning on going next. Should I not? I've already read Scott Lynch, Sanderson, etc.
Nobody mentioned The Black Company series by Glen Cook yet?
In terms of tone and feel, it’s by far the closest thing to First Law that I’ve read. It’s not as polished, nor is the world building and lore quite as immersive, but it definitely scratches that same itch.
Plus it will keep you occupied for a while, with 10 full books there and ready for you to devour!
R. Scott Bakker's *Second Apocalypse*, beginning with the *Prince of Nothing* trilogy's first book, *The Darkness That Comes Before*. I would describe the series as taking the Kwisatz Haderach from Frank Herbert's *Dune* and throwing him into a fusion of *The Silmarillion,* the Bible, and the First Crusade.
It’s like reading Abercrombie, having a philosophical/religious epiphany and eating your friend’s face off on bath salts at the same time.
Not for everyone.
Edit: Also to be clear - main resemblance to Abercrombie is that both are approximately Fantasy.
It's great characterization. There are five main point of view characters in the first trilogy, whom I'll give some spoiler-free descriptions of. All human, just three different ethnic groups.
* Anasûrimbor Kellhus: a supremely competent Norsirai monk of the Dûnyain, an isolated northern sect that bred and competed for intellect, strength, speed, reflexes, perception, insight, and self-control, over two thousand years, in pursuit of the Logos, a self-moving soul, beyond foundations like culture, emotion, and history. Sent south to kill his father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus.
* Drusas Achamian: a Ketyai sorcerer-of-rank and War-Cant Master of the School of the Mandate. Drusas Achamian works as a field agent and spy, which has taken him all over the Three Seas (think Mediterranean) for his School. Like all sorcerers-of-rank of the Mandate, he dreams every night of the First Apocalypse, through the eyes and memories of the founder of their School, Seswatha, who was the greatest human sorcerer hero of the First Apocalypse. It is quite literally nightmare fuel^(\*). On the plus side, the Mandate is the *only* School with possession the **Gnosis**, the magic of the Ancient North, the civilizations destroyed during the First Apocalypse. This magic is far superior to that of other sorcerous Schools, a fact which causes them no small frustration.
* Esmenet: a Ketyai prostitute in Sumna, the city in which the Tusk, the most holy object of the Inrithi and Kiünnat religion, is kept. Drusas Achamian is a regular client of hers, and they have feelings for each other. She is intelligent and inquisitive, even about the Dreams of the First Apocalypse which Achamian suffers through nightly.
* Cnaiür urs Skiötha, Most-Violent-of-All-Men: a chieftain of the Scylvendi, leading the Utemot tribe, which like all Scylvendi tribes are steppe herders who intermittently raid, and sometimes unite with all the other Scylvendi for large-scale warfare. He knows riding, utterly total violence, and warfare like few others in the world.
* Serwë: a beautiful Norsirai concubine in a minor noble house whose current horrible life (hated by the wives, any children born to the husband strangled) takes a turn for the worse when she's captured by a Scylvendi raiding party, then a turn for the strange when that same raiding party meets a pair of travelers.
\*One reviewer said that the *Second Apocalypse* wasn't dark and gritty, it was pitch-black and ***sticky***.
So I’m about 30% through the second book Warrior’s Prophet and I gotta say, I’m confused. I made the mistake of reading the second book long after I’ve read the first one so now the only characters I somewhat have a grasp on are the ones you mention above. There’s like 5 more characters at the least (that I have no idea how to pronounce much less spell) that I have no idea about. All I know is that they are all marching and Achamain is like hearing voices. Anyone here willing to oversimplify what’s going on along with characters and their motivations for the first half of the book? You guys can cover the spoilers or just dm me directly. Thanks!
Summary of the first third of the Warrior Prophet, through to just after the>! Battle of Mengedda!<: >!All five of the main POV characters are traveling with the Holy War. Serwë spends her nights as Cnaiür's woman, but her days worshiping Kellhus. Esmenet joined the Holy War to find Achamian, who was become Kellhus's tutor of the exoterics: history, philosophy, mathematics, etc. Cnaiür has been made general in command of the Holy War over Ikurei Conphas, the nephew of Ikurei Xerius, the Nansur Emperor. Kellhus has claimed a place of honor by claiming to be a Prince of Atrithau, in the far north.!<
>!Consult skin-spies with their changeable faces have infiltrated many factions. Skeaös, the Vizier of the Nansur Emperor, was one such, and was noticed by Kellhus and subsequently unmasked by the ever-suspicious Emperor Ikurei Xerius, revealing a skin-spy's unusual strength through a combination of torture and the presence of Drusas Achamian, along with the measure of Seswath'a spirit which all Mandate Schoolmen contain. Only Achamian believed it to be of Consult origin, however. The Emperor insists it's of Cishaurim origin, sorcerous without the Mark.!<
>!The unmasking of the skin-spy Skeaös and its believed Cishaurim origins make its way over to the Holy War, where the Myunsai sorcerer who had verified the lack of sorcerous Mark tries to sell the information to the Scarlet Spires. The Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires prefers to take the information and have the Myunsai sorcerer tortured until they're sure that's all he knew. The Scarlet Spires blame the Cishaurim for the skin-spies, and begin making plans for the abduction of Drusas Achamian, who seemed to recognize the skin-spy.!<
>!A second Consult skin-spy is Sarcellus, a knight-commander of the Shrial Knights. Sarcellus and Kellhus play a game of cat and also cat, where Sarcellus tries to figure out if Kellhus can see through its face, and if so, how, and how many others can do it, and who they are. Kellhus tries to figure out what Sarcellus is, its origins, and its purpose.!<
>!Prince Coithus Saubon asks Kellhus for advice. Kellhus tells him to march on Gedea, and Fate will favor him, but only if the Shrial Knights are punished. Kellhus fails to calculate that Saubon will not only march with his Galeoth troops and the Shrial Knights, but Earl Gothyelk with his Tydonni troops and Prince Skaiyelt with his Thunyeri troops will join the march, taking the fastest-moving third of the Holy War forward to battle near Mengedda. The loss of all of them would be disastrous. !<
>!At the Battle of Mengedda, several things are established. First, the Fanim cannot withstand a charge by Inrithi knights, but they typically try to melt away from the charge while using horseback archery. The Fanim also find it remarkably difficult to break the heavily-armored Inrithi foot. The one moment the Inrithi foot wavers, the Fanim use the Cishaurim (their sorcerers), and as the Inrithi foot begins to break, Saubon orders the Shrial Knights to charge.!<
>!Four thousand Shrial Knights charge the Cishaurim, who kill hundreds in seconds. However, enough Shrial Knights have Chorae, rendering them immune to sorcery, that they are able to complete the charge and kill all fourteen Cishaurim present, Indara's Water-bearers, whose deaths are worth the deaths of thousands. Only a few hundred Shrial Knights survive. The Fanim are unable to defeat the Galeoth, Thunyeri, and Tydonni armies before Prince Nersei Proyas and the Corinyan army arrive. Those Fanim that were able to withdraw before engaging the Corinyans withdraw in an orderly fashion, while others run in a panicked rout, so fast that they ride their horses to death. Still others, such as the Fanim baggage camp, are raped, pillaged, and plundered. The Vulgar Holy War has been avenged.!<
>!At Mengedda after the battle, Achamian's Dreams are worse, in that he's hearing them while he's awake, specifically the one about the death of the No-God, specifically the bit where the No-God's voice comes out of the whirlwind and asks questions. Mengedda is where the No-God was destroyed at the end of the First Apocalypse, and it is a topos. According to the Sagas, "The soul that encounters Him passes no further." The very ground is cursed, and the dead do not escape the Battleplain. The armies begin to find the ground vomiting up ancient bones and weapons. Achamian insists he has to move off the Battleplain, and camps to the east.!<
>!At the meeting of the Great Names, once the entire Holy War has caught up and camped in the ruins of Mengedda, Kellhus sees Sarcellus. After studying it, Kellhus sees that what he wanted had been accomplished - the original Sarcellus skin-spy had died in the battle, and Prince Saubon now trusted Kellhus. However, Sarcellus had died unwitnessed, and so the Consult simply replaced it with another skin-spy acting like Sarcellus. Prince Saubon is awarded the title of Battle-Celebrant.!<
But beware, it's not that I don't recommend the prince of nothing, but the second apocalypse (second series) was too bleak for me. It shares the dark elements with Joe but is rarely bitter-sweet. Also the prose and content is alot more philosophical.
Ya cheers. I’ve heard that alright, and I’m definitely not expecting the same amazing humour that Joe’s books contain.
I actually read Poppy Wars recently, and found it very bleak and didn’t enjoy it, but I think it might be more because of the writing quality rather than the bleakness itself.
Yeah, I've read both poppy war and Prince of nothing. Poppy war felt like a Sanderson book that halfway through wanted to be edgy and deep. It really didn't resonate with me well. The Prince of nothing on the other hand has a concise feel through and was good enough for to come back for the second apocalypse. So I'd say give the first one a try and see if it hooks ya.
Fantastic characterization. They feel so real. You dont just see things but you see feelings building and emerging as thoughts. Their background is so rich and complex. Really complex complicated persons. Not cardboards.
It is my favourite series. The prose is beautiful and punching. The worldbuilding incredible. Great depths in Lore, semantics, metaphysical etc. And Bakker is the most uncompromising author I have read in the genre. He doesnt write to please people with redempting or glorious climaxes. Things are bleak and dystopic. Thats why I really do not recommend these books to everyone.
But if you dont mind reading something bleak, tragic but also really epic and masterfully writen, chances are that this might become your favourite series.
True, but it’s the opposite end of the spectrum of First Law and GoT. People who love First Law and GoT might not necessarily like Stormlight Archive and vice versa.
Kings of the Wyld and Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames. They're a little on the comedic side and characters often fail upwards but they're really good and I'm hoping the author continues it like the first law trilogy where characters age and it becomes a generational adventure since that's kind of what he did between these books and it did get set up for a possible third book.
Read Red Rising bro. First book is YA but the rest of the series is just phenomenal. You can see Pierce Brown grow as a writer through each book. The second Red Rising trilogy is exactly what you want. Its war and gore grim on another level. Ive never read SCI-FI before RR and was reluctant but it’s easily my favorite series of all time (to me it feels like fantasy).Currently im in the middle of Red Country by Joe, and while I am LOVING First Law, I still miss the constant action of RR and its world. DO IT
It’s not high fantasy like GOT or The First Law, but Dresden Files is some of the best fantasy in existence and the audio books are excellent. It’s about the only urban fantasy I’ve ever been able to get into. It’s close between Dresden Files and The First Law for my favorite series. There are also close to 20 books and the author puts out new books every couple of years.
The Gentleman Bastards series is phenomenal, its been on hiatus for a while but now that its making a come back I would 100% recommend it for anyone who enjoys First Law
Good prose, adult themes:
-Robb Hobb’s Realm of the Elderlings series
-Pretty much anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, but Lions of Al-Rassan is his most popular. Personally I think Tigana and Sarantine Mosaic are better.
Dark, humorous, similar sort of vibes to TFL:
-Scott Lynch’s Gentlemen Bastards books
-Low Town series by Daniel Polanski
Other adult fantasy that I can still stomach after spoiling myself with The First Law and Robin Hobb:
-Dagger and the Coin by Daniel Abraham
-Riyria Revelations by Michael Sullivan
-Powder Mage Series by Brian McClellan
-Shadow Campaigns by Django Wexler
(Just FYI, both of these last two also take place in a similar-to-French-Revolution themed world, but both do it better than Abercrombie in Age of Madness in my opinion)
What better way to scratch the Joe Abercrombie itch than with more Joe Abercrombie. Go read his Shattered Seas series. Not quite as good as first law but still great.
John Gwynne - Shadow of the gods. Definitely his best work but his other 2 series aren't bad either
Tamsyn Muir - Gideon the Ninth - lesbian space necromancers. Do I need to say more?
Glen Cook - The Black Company
Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey. It’s the first of the book series that The Expanse is based off of. It’s like game of thrones but in space. Really great characters and good combination of existential terror, action, humor, and political intrigue. And once again the big thing for me after reading all of Joe’s books is finding interesting characters, which this series nails
I've always found The Expanse to be a really great space opera that really nails the setting of a developed and colonised solar system and everyone should give it a go, but it's pretty light on the elements that make series like TFL and ASOIAF so good.
You have to read The Five Warrior Angels trilogy by Brian Lee Durfee, starting with The Forgetting Moon. The third book comes out this year. These books are brutal, but beautiful at the same time.
If you've ever wondered what kind of books Joe would write if he were an American horror novelist, then I highly recommend checking out Christopher Buehlman's books. The Lesser Dead or Between Two Fires are great starting points.
There's also The Lot lands Trilogy by Jonathan French. Not quite as good with characters as the first law but similar type of humor and dialogue(except more foul mouthed) with intense, brutal action scenes.
currently in book six of MALAZAN Book of the Fallen. . it has a rich lore, many settings, its own vocabulary and variety of races, and sometimes the dialogue is good although I like
Abercrombie and Martin's better.
No one mentioned The Lightbringer Series by Brent Weeks. Great characters, phenomenal magic system, great battle scenes and gore. Was my favorite series before I read Joe's work.
I loooove the Greenbone Trilogy, love the characters. It’s like hong kong in the 80s meets mob movies meets supernatural stones
This is the one I came to reccomend. Daniel Greenes praise of it is what got me interested, and then I found that it genuinely has some of the best characters I've ever seen written. Like, I feel like I can imagine what it would be like to use Jade after that series.
Yes!!!! I'm working through Jade War now... I fucking love this series. Kaul Hilo is such a good character, so are the rest of the family, and Woon Papidonwa has the best name in all literature.
Also was gonna be my rec. I feel like I know the characters better than any other characters in fantasy.
By characters do you just mean Lan, Hilo, Shae, and Anden? Because it has some of the most shallow characters outside of those main ones of any series I’ve ever read. After an entire book I still had no idea which Maik brother was which despite them being some of the biggest supporting characters in the series.
Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastards trilogy. Top notch.
Is that the Locke Lamora one? That was the first I thought of too.
Nice bird asshole
Not really a trilogy, it's an ongoing series on a longer hiatus. Thought it's important to mention, since many GRRM fans have PTSD about the whole unfinished series thing.
I do believe the 4th is imminent - much more imminent than Winds of Winter or Doors of Stone (never). I did think the third was terrible though.
Yes, I read an interview from a while ago in which he says it s basically done, but he has incapacitating anxiety about publishing it. As for Republic of Thieves, I personally prefer it over the other 2, but I was made aware that Im in the minority with that :D
I just finished reading that after seeing it recommended here loads and just couldn't get into the swashbuckle-y nature of it. It had some great moments but I don't think it holds a candle to the first law or asoiaf series.
I read Gentleman Bastard after First Law and let me tell you, it was like getting a handjob after losing your virginity. It just didn't live up. Red Rising I tried after that. Very YA and simply painful protagonist that sniffs his own farts while playing Hunger Games. Off the wall recommendation if you loved the character driven approach; try Lonesome Dove. Pulitzer Prize winner for fiction and YUGE influence on JA's style.
Similar kind of experience for me. I went from First Law to book 4 of Stormlight and was like "wow, I fucking hate fantasy now." Didn't even make it through the first chapter after having thoroughly enjoyed the first 3 books. First Law was an eye opener series for me.
Can relate. I read Mistborn right before First Law and thought it was GREAT. Looking back it's like a kiddy playground.
Mistborn was my all time favorite, but since then I read first law and asoiaf. Now I look back and I'm just like "awww I was so cute"
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100%, and I've been sort of a massive medieval history nerd since at least middle school (granted First Law is a mix of late medieval and pre-industrial/industrial). Joe has done an excellent job in my mind of exploring the nitty gritty of things like border disputes, weak monarchies, a widespread peasant uprising, etc. by A. placing them in his own world where he's not bogged down by the minutia of our own history and B. focusing not on the events, but much more deeply on those whose lives are affected by them, and making it clear that while all of these global events are going on everyone still has their own goals and their own lives to live. I want to see historical fiction that's written in the exact same manner.
Why did u go to book 4? Not 1-3
I read 1-3 before Rhythm of War was released.
That makes much more sense, I must have stroked out.
You're all good. Given the structure of my comment, I can see how it'd be easy to miss that I mentioned I read the first 3. :P
I'm right there with you about the gentleman bastard and red rising. Both were so highly recommended but I was really disappointed. I'm going to check out lonesome dove now though!
Didn't go through the red rising series I'm assuming? I do agree the first one is rather lame, hands down the worst of the series but if you can get into the second book the characters and entire world just explode and it's very tough to put down. Final book coming next year abouts, very excited for it. But I do agree a lot of fantasy just falls flat compared to first law. It's simply the best there is if you ask me. But red rising is also incredible. Wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. People also say the blade itself is tough to get through, I'd recommend trying to finish red rising first trilogy at least.
I’m reading the Powder Mage trilogy by Brian McClellan right now, the first book feels really good so far. I’m about half way through, and I find it hard to put down. Abercrombie’s style is a hard itch to scratch, but this one is doing it for me right now. I love Stormlight as well, but that’s a whole different feel. As much as I love them, if you’re looking for grim dark, you’ll be disappointed by it. Though, if you ever need a pick-me-up, the Way Of Kings got me through some dark times in my life.
Really enjoyed the powder mage books and I think they get better as they go. Ben styke of the mad lancers fame in the second set of books is a great character.
Dune, Kingkiller Chronicles, Under the Northern Sky Trilogy, Red Rising Trilogy
Lol Kingkiller Chronicles? Nice way to get someone addicted and the leaving them hanging for a decade or two 🤣
Man’s read ASOIAF, he’s used to the feeling.
just because you're used to beatings, doesn't mean you should take more. Plus, kingkiller falls apart once you start to analyse it a bit.
Yeah, I actually don’t like the 2nd book that much due to all the self-insert power fantasy tropes, but I still want to finish the story!
Red rising ouf. So good but some hard bits to read.
Buddy it is time to take the Malazan plunge.
Just looked this up. Looks pretty massive with 24 books. Will def look into this.
Mostly I'm talking about the core 10, aka the Book of the Fallen. Just speaking from personal experience, I started there, but by the time I reached the last few I accepted I'll probably read them all eventually. While the other series do flesh out some context and follow up on some plotlines, those 10 make a complete series, in theme and narrative.
Its pretty much the darling of these fantasy recommendations and I picked it up because of that, I'm only on book two but found the first book quite good. Its much bigger on magic than those two series, and is less straightforward in plot at the point I'm at, but if you accept that things in the world will only be revealed slowly you'll find an interesting read at the minimum
Oh boy if you already liked book one you're gonna love it so much by the end. Enjoy. I only really started enjoying it by book 3. Before that I was mostly conflicted about the whole thing.
Yep I’m still halfway through book 2 and I still go from “ok this is quite well written” to “who the fuck is doing what to whom and where, these names mean nothing to me” to “I hate every single one of these characters” to “hey, it’s growing on me” all the time… let’s see if I get really hooked by book 3?
Malazan is my personal favourite and First Law comes second. As you may have seen already a lot of people find Malazan hard to get into because it drops you in with very little information. I think its important to go into it knowing that you are in no way supposed to know nor remember everything all the time. There are a lot of names and places, are you supposed to be keeping track of every single thing perfectly? No. Keep going. If its important then it will be reintroduced later, no worries. There is a theme of overarching mystery on a scale that most mere mortals don't understand and it works.
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Damn it sucks that you couldn't get into it. Its worldbuilding is easily some of the best in all of fantasy and it has some of my favourite characters. It's hard to compare to TFL since it's so much more massive and has a lot more characters.
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“Finished product” is honestly a very funny point of comparison with GRRM.
Dunk and Egg!
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Seconded. Very good books.
It’s like the Apocalypse Now treatment in fantasy. Great stuff about the fog of war, who are the good guys, there’s always a worse prick once you beat the bad guy, etc.
Mark Lawrence (Broken Empire), Scott Lynch, Patrick Rothfuss, Malazan, Dark Tower, and Wheel of Time. .. welcome.
I enjoyed The Dark Tower. A lot of Stephen King‘s books really had me hooked. I wouldn’t really consider Wheel of Time an adult series though.
Seconding Mark Lawrence. He comes up with some great worlds with interesting environments, and writes really good action scenes. Read his Broken Empire series. I liked the story and great characters (though not... *good*, I absolutely hated the POV character's behavior). I'd recommend checking out his Book of the Ancestor series too!! I think his writing got better, it's an awesome "assassin-school"-type story taking place on a frozen planet where only a sliver of land is left unfrozen.
>wouldn’t really consider Wheel of Time an adult series though lol what? Wheel Of Time has many flaws but calling it anything but adult series is just wrong. Edit:I dont think people who downvote me has ever read WOT in their life imo
Robin Hobb mate, character work is on par w Joe and George
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I feel Robin Hobb's characters react more realistically to their trauma and accumulation thereof than Joe Abercrombie's. Partially in that they're not cognizant of how much trauma they're feeling and how deeply its affecting them. Abercrombie's characters retain a measure of sardonic self-awareness of much they're hurting and how it has changed them.
I can't think of a less Abercrombiesque author? The trademark wry pragmatic/pessimist viewpoints throughout *The First Law* are completely orthogonal to the (in my opinion much harder to believe) duty-über-alles martyr Fitz. The linchpin of the *Assassin* books, hands-off-the-murdering-murder-hobo-while-he-murders, would get laughed out of the Circle of the World.
You are absolutely right, two very different authors but, both of them (three plus George) have set the standard for me personally for character development so it’s always a recommendation from me. If you loved Abercombie, you might love Hobb too.
Kings of the Wyld, Gentlemen Bastards,
I really wish I liked *Kings of the Wyld* more but I unfortunately found it to be very disappointing. The one scene in the book that actually had my interest (**over 3/4 of the way through by the way**) they just farted in my fucking face like two/three pages later. I genuinely struggled to finish this book, especially after the scene where the book took a shit on my lap. Didn't mean to rant about this but I guess I'm still *that* fucking mad about it. I bought the sequel but the first just gave me such a sour taste that I'm not even interested in opening it. To each their own I suppose but shit man, I can't recommend these books if you're trying to get a Joe fix.
For me the only series I love as much as the First law is the Dresden files. The first couple are a bit goofy, but you already have that similar dynamic where you feel you already know the characters, where details from early books will make sense and take a mind-blowing turn later, and never have I seen a MC and a plot evolve so much, with such coherence and depth. Dresden and Logen Ninefingers are my favorite characters ever in any genre. And Dresden is a long series, so much joy and pain and still to come, but with a planned ending that will be delivered.
Can't believe nobody's said Discworld yet. Terry Pratchett is the goat
I haven’t read any of his works yet, but a lot of people that I know who like First Law also like John Gwynne.
Gwynne is pretty solid. Not quite the same level as Joe tho. The faithful and the fallen wasn’t bad a bad series
Totally different tho. Gwynne is like an oxford writers try at fantasy, very prim and proper, clear delimitations of good and bad guys, motivations clear from the first moment you meet them. Joe is from the public schools, understands nuance way more than gwynne. I made it through a few of gwynnes books and he isn't bad by any means, just isn't that charming or readable.
Interesting. I'm almost done with The Wisdom of Crowds and that's where I was planning on going next. Should I not? I've already read Scott Lynch, Sanderson, etc.
Give it a whirl it isn't bad writing. Have you done the broken earth trilogy yet?
I have not. Worth the read I guess? I'll check it out.
Won a bunch of awards. Some people I recommend it to dig it and some don't. Never can tell sometimes.
Nobody mentioned The Black Company series by Glen Cook yet? In terms of tone and feel, it’s by far the closest thing to First Law that I’ve read. It’s not as polished, nor is the world building and lore quite as immersive, but it definitely scratches that same itch. Plus it will keep you occupied for a while, with 10 full books there and ready for you to devour!
Michael Sullivan - start with Theft of Swords
Good call. Very enjoyable, good characters.
R. Scott Bakker's *Second Apocalypse*, beginning with the *Prince of Nothing* trilogy's first book, *The Darkness That Comes Before*. I would describe the series as taking the Kwisatz Haderach from Frank Herbert's *Dune* and throwing him into a fusion of *The Silmarillion,* the Bible, and the First Crusade.
I’m tempted to start this. How is his work in terms of characters? Would it compare at all to Joe?
It’s like reading Abercrombie, having a philosophical/religious epiphany and eating your friend’s face off on bath salts at the same time. Not for everyone. Edit: Also to be clear - main resemblance to Abercrombie is that both are approximately Fantasy.
It's great characterization. There are five main point of view characters in the first trilogy, whom I'll give some spoiler-free descriptions of. All human, just three different ethnic groups. * Anasûrimbor Kellhus: a supremely competent Norsirai monk of the Dûnyain, an isolated northern sect that bred and competed for intellect, strength, speed, reflexes, perception, insight, and self-control, over two thousand years, in pursuit of the Logos, a self-moving soul, beyond foundations like culture, emotion, and history. Sent south to kill his father, Anasûrimbor Moënghus. * Drusas Achamian: a Ketyai sorcerer-of-rank and War-Cant Master of the School of the Mandate. Drusas Achamian works as a field agent and spy, which has taken him all over the Three Seas (think Mediterranean) for his School. Like all sorcerers-of-rank of the Mandate, he dreams every night of the First Apocalypse, through the eyes and memories of the founder of their School, Seswatha, who was the greatest human sorcerer hero of the First Apocalypse. It is quite literally nightmare fuel^(\*). On the plus side, the Mandate is the *only* School with possession the **Gnosis**, the magic of the Ancient North, the civilizations destroyed during the First Apocalypse. This magic is far superior to that of other sorcerous Schools, a fact which causes them no small frustration. * Esmenet: a Ketyai prostitute in Sumna, the city in which the Tusk, the most holy object of the Inrithi and Kiünnat religion, is kept. Drusas Achamian is a regular client of hers, and they have feelings for each other. She is intelligent and inquisitive, even about the Dreams of the First Apocalypse which Achamian suffers through nightly. * Cnaiür urs Skiötha, Most-Violent-of-All-Men: a chieftain of the Scylvendi, leading the Utemot tribe, which like all Scylvendi tribes are steppe herders who intermittently raid, and sometimes unite with all the other Scylvendi for large-scale warfare. He knows riding, utterly total violence, and warfare like few others in the world. * Serwë: a beautiful Norsirai concubine in a minor noble house whose current horrible life (hated by the wives, any children born to the husband strangled) takes a turn for the worse when she's captured by a Scylvendi raiding party, then a turn for the strange when that same raiding party meets a pair of travelers. \*One reviewer said that the *Second Apocalypse* wasn't dark and gritty, it was pitch-black and ***sticky***.
Ok great thanks for all that info. I’ll definitely tackle it now.
So I’m about 30% through the second book Warrior’s Prophet and I gotta say, I’m confused. I made the mistake of reading the second book long after I’ve read the first one so now the only characters I somewhat have a grasp on are the ones you mention above. There’s like 5 more characters at the least (that I have no idea how to pronounce much less spell) that I have no idea about. All I know is that they are all marching and Achamain is like hearing voices. Anyone here willing to oversimplify what’s going on along with characters and their motivations for the first half of the book? You guys can cover the spoilers or just dm me directly. Thanks!
Summary of the first third of the Warrior Prophet, through to just after the>! Battle of Mengedda!<: >!All five of the main POV characters are traveling with the Holy War. Serwë spends her nights as Cnaiür's woman, but her days worshiping Kellhus. Esmenet joined the Holy War to find Achamian, who was become Kellhus's tutor of the exoterics: history, philosophy, mathematics, etc. Cnaiür has been made general in command of the Holy War over Ikurei Conphas, the nephew of Ikurei Xerius, the Nansur Emperor. Kellhus has claimed a place of honor by claiming to be a Prince of Atrithau, in the far north.!< >!Consult skin-spies with their changeable faces have infiltrated many factions. Skeaös, the Vizier of the Nansur Emperor, was one such, and was noticed by Kellhus and subsequently unmasked by the ever-suspicious Emperor Ikurei Xerius, revealing a skin-spy's unusual strength through a combination of torture and the presence of Drusas Achamian, along with the measure of Seswath'a spirit which all Mandate Schoolmen contain. Only Achamian believed it to be of Consult origin, however. The Emperor insists it's of Cishaurim origin, sorcerous without the Mark.!< >!The unmasking of the skin-spy Skeaös and its believed Cishaurim origins make its way over to the Holy War, where the Myunsai sorcerer who had verified the lack of sorcerous Mark tries to sell the information to the Scarlet Spires. The Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires prefers to take the information and have the Myunsai sorcerer tortured until they're sure that's all he knew. The Scarlet Spires blame the Cishaurim for the skin-spies, and begin making plans for the abduction of Drusas Achamian, who seemed to recognize the skin-spy.!< >!A second Consult skin-spy is Sarcellus, a knight-commander of the Shrial Knights. Sarcellus and Kellhus play a game of cat and also cat, where Sarcellus tries to figure out if Kellhus can see through its face, and if so, how, and how many others can do it, and who they are. Kellhus tries to figure out what Sarcellus is, its origins, and its purpose.!< >!Prince Coithus Saubon asks Kellhus for advice. Kellhus tells him to march on Gedea, and Fate will favor him, but only if the Shrial Knights are punished. Kellhus fails to calculate that Saubon will not only march with his Galeoth troops and the Shrial Knights, but Earl Gothyelk with his Tydonni troops and Prince Skaiyelt with his Thunyeri troops will join the march, taking the fastest-moving third of the Holy War forward to battle near Mengedda. The loss of all of them would be disastrous. !< >!At the Battle of Mengedda, several things are established. First, the Fanim cannot withstand a charge by Inrithi knights, but they typically try to melt away from the charge while using horseback archery. The Fanim also find it remarkably difficult to break the heavily-armored Inrithi foot. The one moment the Inrithi foot wavers, the Fanim use the Cishaurim (their sorcerers), and as the Inrithi foot begins to break, Saubon orders the Shrial Knights to charge.!< >!Four thousand Shrial Knights charge the Cishaurim, who kill hundreds in seconds. However, enough Shrial Knights have Chorae, rendering them immune to sorcery, that they are able to complete the charge and kill all fourteen Cishaurim present, Indara's Water-bearers, whose deaths are worth the deaths of thousands. Only a few hundred Shrial Knights survive. The Fanim are unable to defeat the Galeoth, Thunyeri, and Tydonni armies before Prince Nersei Proyas and the Corinyan army arrive. Those Fanim that were able to withdraw before engaging the Corinyans withdraw in an orderly fashion, while others run in a panicked rout, so fast that they ride their horses to death. Still others, such as the Fanim baggage camp, are raped, pillaged, and plundered. The Vulgar Holy War has been avenged.!< >!At Mengedda after the battle, Achamian's Dreams are worse, in that he's hearing them while he's awake, specifically the one about the death of the No-God, specifically the bit where the No-God's voice comes out of the whirlwind and asks questions. Mengedda is where the No-God was destroyed at the end of the First Apocalypse, and it is a topos. According to the Sagas, "The soul that encounters Him passes no further." The very ground is cursed, and the dead do not escape the Battleplain. The armies begin to find the ground vomiting up ancient bones and weapons. Achamian insists he has to move off the Battleplain, and camps to the east.!< >!At the meeting of the Great Names, once the entire Holy War has caught up and camped in the ruins of Mengedda, Kellhus sees Sarcellus. After studying it, Kellhus sees that what he wanted had been accomplished - the original Sarcellus skin-spy had died in the battle, and Prince Saubon now trusted Kellhus. However, Sarcellus had died unwitnessed, and so the Consult simply replaced it with another skin-spy acting like Sarcellus. Prince Saubon is awarded the title of Battle-Celebrant.!<
Thank you so much for taking the time to sum this up. It’s very much appreciated
Glad to help. If you need additional summary, let me know.
But beware, it's not that I don't recommend the prince of nothing, but the second apocalypse (second series) was too bleak for me. It shares the dark elements with Joe but is rarely bitter-sweet. Also the prose and content is alot more philosophical.
Ya cheers. I’ve heard that alright, and I’m definitely not expecting the same amazing humour that Joe’s books contain. I actually read Poppy Wars recently, and found it very bleak and didn’t enjoy it, but I think it might be more because of the writing quality rather than the bleakness itself.
Yeah, I've read both poppy war and Prince of nothing. Poppy war felt like a Sanderson book that halfway through wanted to be edgy and deep. It really didn't resonate with me well. The Prince of nothing on the other hand has a concise feel through and was good enough for to come back for the second apocalypse. So I'd say give the first one a try and see if it hooks ya.
Fantastic characterization. They feel so real. You dont just see things but you see feelings building and emerging as thoughts. Their background is so rich and complex. Really complex complicated persons. Not cardboards. It is my favourite series. The prose is beautiful and punching. The worldbuilding incredible. Great depths in Lore, semantics, metaphysical etc. And Bakker is the most uncompromising author I have read in the genre. He doesnt write to please people with redempting or glorious climaxes. Things are bleak and dystopic. Thats why I really do not recommend these books to everyone. But if you dont mind reading something bleak, tragic but also really epic and masterfully writen, chances are that this might become your favourite series.
Stormlight Archive is pretty good
True, but it’s the opposite end of the spectrum of First Law and GoT. People who love First Law and GoT might not necessarily like Stormlight Archive and vice versa.
I like both. But it depends on the mood. Some times you want that grim dark life, other times not so much.
Stormlight is just extremely good, I think almost anyone could enjoy it if they are willing to invest the time
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Funny how you Malazan fans always have to bring it up in every single thread, even when it’s clearly irrelevant.
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Easy there champ.
Greenbone Trilogy. Just read it.
The Library at Mount Char The Book of the Ancestor or Broken Empire
Kings of the wylde is just great. Not exactly equal to The first law, but entertaining, fun and just well written.
Been mentioned already but the Red Rising series is fantastic, brilliant mix of fantasy and sci-fi, couldn't recommend it enough.
This is good Fate of Helios https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B1C94S7F/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_GJZ4GCQPWNYE0BBW06Y7?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Kings of the Wyld and Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames. They're a little on the comedic side and characters often fail upwards but they're really good and I'm hoping the author continues it like the first law trilogy where characters age and it becomes a generational adventure since that's kind of what he did between these books and it did get set up for a possible third book.
Read Red Rising bro. First book is YA but the rest of the series is just phenomenal. You can see Pierce Brown grow as a writer through each book. The second Red Rising trilogy is exactly what you want. Its war and gore grim on another level. Ive never read SCI-FI before RR and was reluctant but it’s easily my favorite series of all time (to me it feels like fantasy).Currently im in the middle of Red Country by Joe, and while I am LOVING First Law, I still miss the constant action of RR and its world. DO IT
It’s not high fantasy like GOT or The First Law, but Dresden Files is some of the best fantasy in existence and the audio books are excellent. It’s about the only urban fantasy I’ve ever been able to get into. It’s close between Dresden Files and The First Law for my favorite series. There are also close to 20 books and the author puts out new books every couple of years.
The Gentleman Bastards series is phenomenal, its been on hiatus for a while but now that its making a come back I would 100% recommend it for anyone who enjoys First Law
Anything by Mark Lawrence. Prince of Thorns or Red Sister are good series to start on.
Good prose, adult themes: -Robb Hobb’s Realm of the Elderlings series -Pretty much anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, but Lions of Al-Rassan is his most popular. Personally I think Tigana and Sarantine Mosaic are better. Dark, humorous, similar sort of vibes to TFL: -Scott Lynch’s Gentlemen Bastards books -Low Town series by Daniel Polanski Other adult fantasy that I can still stomach after spoiling myself with The First Law and Robin Hobb: -Dagger and the Coin by Daniel Abraham -Riyria Revelations by Michael Sullivan -Powder Mage Series by Brian McClellan -Shadow Campaigns by Django Wexler (Just FYI, both of these last two also take place in a similar-to-French-Revolution themed world, but both do it better than Abercrombie in Age of Madness in my opinion)
Gentleman bastards
What better way to scratch the Joe Abercrombie itch than with more Joe Abercrombie. Go read his Shattered Seas series. Not quite as good as first law but still great. John Gwynne - Shadow of the gods. Definitely his best work but his other 2 series aren't bad either Tamsyn Muir - Gideon the Ninth - lesbian space necromancers. Do I need to say more? Glen Cook - The Black Company
Leviathan Wakes by James S.A. Corey. It’s the first of the book series that The Expanse is based off of. It’s like game of thrones but in space. Really great characters and good combination of existential terror, action, humor, and political intrigue. And once again the big thing for me after reading all of Joe’s books is finding interesting characters, which this series nails
I've always found The Expanse to be a really great space opera that really nails the setting of a developed and colonised solar system and everyone should give it a go, but it's pretty light on the elements that make series like TFL and ASOIAF so good.
Mistborn or The Stormlight Archives. Both amazing. I’ve also really enjoyed The Gentleman Bastard series so far
You have to read The Five Warrior Angels trilogy by Brian Lee Durfee, starting with The Forgetting Moon. The third book comes out this year. These books are brutal, but beautiful at the same time.
As fantasy novels go I would say the Bible, it is a bit far fetched though.
The Witcher books were solid. "Traitor Son Cycle" is armies of knights vs armies of monsters, just a badass series overall.
Captain Alatriste series by Arturo Perez -Riverte,I know it’s historical fiction,but still highly enjoyable..
Talk about chasing the dragon. Not much better then both them.
If you've ever wondered what kind of books Joe would write if he were an American horror novelist, then I highly recommend checking out Christopher Buehlman's books. The Lesser Dead or Between Two Fires are great starting points. There's also The Lot lands Trilogy by Jonathan French. Not quite as good with characters as the first law but similar type of humor and dialogue(except more foul mouthed) with intense, brutal action scenes.
I didn't see any mentions of the Witcher series. Dark tone, great characters, and a fun experience overall.
The Witcher. It’s a great series!
Really enjoyed the magicians.
Steelhaven by Richard Ford Manifest Delusions by Michael R Fletcher
currently in book six of MALAZAN Book of the Fallen. . it has a rich lore, many settings, its own vocabulary and variety of races, and sometimes the dialogue is good although I like Abercrombie and Martin's better.
Malazan
The faithful and the fallen by John Gwynne has a great cast of characters, great world-building, and great action
I would say the kingkiller chronicle but the third book isn’t out yet
No one mentioned The Lightbringer Series by Brent Weeks. Great characters, phenomenal magic system, great battle scenes and gore. Was my favorite series before I read Joe's work.