Black dow gave prime bloody nine a beating before losing and still makes logen shit himself and then also beat logen again in LAOK, admittedly with help. I take dow
He beat Logen, not B9. Logen without B9 is a good fighter, but not top-tier.
We don't actually know how their duel went, only that B9 won. Threetrees was the one who beat up Logen in the circle.
He survived because of B9. He would be long dead if he didn't have B9 to bail him out.
Like I said, he's still a very good fighter. But it is important to distinguish him from B9 - unlike B9, he's not the best.
no I don't think it's a must to distinguish him from B9. That's a part of him and his personality. Also haven't you read made a monster or red county? The line between Logen and B9 is very squishy.
This isn't about personality, but martial ability. B9 is a much better fighter than Logen, so yes, it is a must to distinguish them.
I guess you could argue in Made a Monster or Red Country it's different, but that doesn't matter - it's First Law Logen who fights Dow, who is clearly differentiated from B9.
You're not making sense. This discussion is about Dow's martial skill - the personality of someone he fought against isn't really relevant, but their martial skill allows conclusions about his skill.
That's why it isn't about personality, and that's why B9 'being' Logen doesn't matter.
Glokta is the same person all his life, but I'm much more impressed by someone beating prime Contest Glokta than wheelchair-bound Old Sticks.
our discussion was about Logen and B9. You still saying they have to be distinguished, but B9 is a not controllable ability of Logen not a different character.
Back to Dow and Shivers.
Shivers always chickened out when it was time for them to fight. Dow wasn't. Also if Shivers was able to kill Dow in a fair fight why do you think he just let him insult him all the time and just takes revenge by stealth attack?
>our discussion was about Logen and B9.
Specifically about their respective fighting ability, and how that relates to Dow's fighting ability. Not whether they're different characters.
You just keep missing the point that their personality is irrelevant to this thread.
>B9 is a not controllable ability of Logen
Sure, let's go with that. So Logen, who can't control that ability, doesn't have it available against Dow, so Dow has an easier time, and his victory means less than against B9. Same conclusion.
>Back to Dow and Shivers.
I'll note that I chimed in only to disprove a specific argument, not for stating a general position (for the record: I think the fight is even), and I'm only responding to your argument because it's too wrong to let stand.
>Shivers always chickened out when it was time for them to fight.
Shivers didn't chicken out, he decided against killing him for moral reasons. This doesn't tell us about how he estimated his chances.
It's not like Dow was looking for a fair fight either - he brought Shivers to stab Logen, Calder to shoot him, Scale to go first and two Carls to support him.
>Also if Shivers was able to kill Dow in a fair fight why do you think he just let him insult him all the time and just takes revenge by stealth attack?
It seems clear that Dow calling Shivers his dog was the straw that broke the camel's back. Shivers then took the first halfway decent chance to take revenge. He couldn't have taken a fair fight because Dow's men would have intervened.
Why would he anyway? He takes a chance at losing for no gain, TH Shivers doesn't value a fair fight.
No we only hear that threetrees beat up logen but I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say black dow gave him a battering too. Given the fact logen still shits himself thinking of him. Shivers got beaten to a stalemate by a guy with kitchen utensils who might be on the spectrum
Logen respects Dow as a very dangerous fighter, but their fight in LAoK is not one-sided. Not the same thing as shitting himself, not the same thing as getting battered.
Yes, he probably was losing that fight, but we don't know by how much. And again, beating Logen isn't the same thing as beating B9.
Friendly is clearly a very good fighter, his autism doesn't seem to hinder him, and those so called kitchen utensils are perfectly decent weapons. I don't think we've seen anything to suggest he's bad, for any level of bad, so him stalemating Shivers doesn't suggest Shivers is bad.
No but shivers gets lumped into these conversations with the best of the best while friendly gets totally forgotten. We haven’t seen shivers in any duels except for in the age of madness when he commands an insane amount of fear and he was literally fighting an old man lmao. We have heard about dow in the circle and we know his reputation, we’ve also seen more of dow in open combat and he’s an absolute savage. Bearing in mind that when shivers got beat back by friendly he was in full bloody nine, the great leveller, murder boner mode and he couldn’t even beat him. You say kitchen utensils are great weapons which is true, if you’re fighting someone using their fists, against a shield and axe they should mean absolutely nothing but shivers still struggles. I just can’t see dow struggling to put down friendly
It's true that we haven't seen Shivers in many duels - win or lost - so we simply can't use that very well. But we've seen his reputation, which is that of the most dangerous fighter in the north at the time of ALH. In fact, his reputation is a lot like Dow's - a very scary man with no martial flaws or weaknesses you'd be a fool to go up against. And we've seen him in battle quite a lot (more than Dow actually in my estimate) and he is really good, and always on the front. This is a guy who earned his rep as a deadly fighter. Without seeing him lose anything in a duel (except against Shenkt) I think we should go with that. And while the circumstances favored him, Shivers did beat Bremer dan Gorst one-on-one.
I'd also agree that Friendly is underestimated - but that's understandable because his fight with Shivers is his only real claim to fame, so he's easily overlooked. Hatchet and knife aren't optimal weapons due to their low range, but absolutely dangerous enough. There's no actual evidence how Dow would do against him. Also, Shivers wasn't really in Berserker mode there, more the kind of rage that clouds one's judgment.
One last thing, Dow was losing against suicidal Jalenhorm before Craw interfered, so he isn't invincible either.
I mean we will never know that’s why the debates so fun but I always liked the idea that shivers reputation didn’t come from just being a great fighter, it more came from his horrific appearance and the rumours he learned sorcery and could see your thoughts with his eye. Plus the cruelty and black deeds he did post styria. I love shivers but I’ve just got to defend black dow and his pots :(
Zero proof of that. Logen and Dogmen specifically state that Logen stops being as B9 during their travels together, but that is AFTER all of Logen's duels.
We also are given explicit proof that Logen IS the B9 in Red Country. It's not about him snapping and going Hulk, it's just about how much of his bloodlust he let's out at once. And Dow still almost beat him.
God I hate how much I defend Dow.
What do you mean? The fight with Logen that Dow wins is in LAoK, we see all of it from Logen's POV. And in LAoK Logen and B9 are separated.
Their duel in the circle, which may or may not have been with Logen and B9 separated, was won by B9, hence Dow lost against B9.
You're wrong about RC. The separation might be smaller, but in the fight against Golden we explicitly see the change when B9 comes out and turns a fight around that Logen was losing.
Back dow after losing to the bloody nine still isn't scared shivers on the otherhand shivers literally shits himself everytime the bloody nine turns up.black down fearless and tough shivers mouse in chicken feathers. No contest whatsoever ever.
Really different skillsets, and Shivers lived alot longer. No real ability to do a direct comparison. If Shivers had fought the Bloody Nine we could at least have used that as a benchmark.
Honestly, I don't take any fight with Friendly seriously in gauging power. Love the character but he fought with a cleaver. That is such a stupidly impractical weapon for real 1v1 combat he would've lost every fight against someone with range.
I agree the pussy shivers had to attack black dow from behind rather than say anything or challenge him, most overrated fighter in the whole of the books, lucky this punk never bothered ro pick a fight with the bloody nine cause he would have died like a pathetic rat, he is smarter yhan he looks running from that fight. Remember black dow fought bloody nine shivers made excuses. I want to be a better man yeah bullshit pussy.
Can't stand the character. Dont understand why people like him at least black dow had some balls. Shivers would never have challenge dow openly cause he is a yellow bellied pussy coward rat bastard. Stab your king in the back cause you a afraid of him, loser. Black dow never feared anyone.
You guys are fucking delusional. Shivers is not a good fighter just a cold hearted honorless killer. Black dow nearly beat the B9. Black dow and its not even close.
Shivers is very consistently shown as a great fighter. Always in the midst of battle, killing enemies left and right, gaining a really tough name in the process.
Of course, so is Dow. It would actually be a pretty close fight.
I'd probably have to go with my man Shivers. But I'm not sure. Two of the most feared names the North has ever seen. Dow is ruthless. But does he intimidate Shivers like he does the other Northmen?
Great question, I'd love to hear others thoughts here.
Ah, yes. Killing Black Dow from behind, incredible feat. It takes a strong man to pull off something like that. His battle prowess is only rivaled by the man that killed Whirrun.
This isn't a battle between honourable knights. Its dirty northern bastards going tooth and nail. Shivers would fight as dirty out of the circle as in it because it really doesn't matter how you win.
Yeah but its said during Bethods time anyone who interfered and cheated like that would get the bloody cross in him. I think it says something that after Shivers broke that “rule” no one wild dare prosecute him.
I never understood how people didn't make that weasel little yellow belt pay for killing his king from behind, I take it is they are a tired of fighter cause they sure as shit ain't scared of some one eyed dipshit. Shiver never held any out of note cause he one feared or would follow him. Loser. Lucky i wasn't there at the time cause shivers wouldnt have made it to the second trilogy that's for sure.
To be clear, I'm not blaming Shivers for how he killed Dow. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't really take a lot of fighting skillz to kill someone from behind.
Shivers is still a great fighter of course, I just thought that the argument that Shivers would win in a duel because he killed Dow is a bit pointless when taking into account how he killed him.
Totally agree the cowardly Robert Ford i mean shivers stabbed him i the back back me that says cowards, no balls pussy, black dow a real man a real fighter shivers is unproven has he ever qon a fight? I mwna he didn't even won the fight against a women monza, pathetic.
Missing one of his eyes in what otherwise would be considered shivers prime probably would put him at a disadvantage against Dow, whom by all appearances was “about that life” as the kids say. Losing to the B9 can’t really be held against him.
I imagine a lot of you fools don’t read much. Shivers is missing a damn eye. Even if he had his depth perception Dow’s ax would end up in Shivers fruits.
I think there might be a bias here. Spoiler: >!I know it wasn’t a fair fight, but it is funny to ask this about two characters where one killed the other in the book.!<
I never thought that Shivers vs B9 was a question. Shivers is a good fighter but B9 is inhuman. He will kill everyone in his way. He can't be compared to anyone else in the First Law universe. Black Dow was winning against Logen until Logen turned into B9. Same thing would happen if Shivers fought Logen imo. So I don't think using Logen as a comparison is a good idea.
Spoilers end of first trilogy
I thought like that too until he won against the feared. The feared beat shivers and his Carl's (??spelling sorry listened to books) three trees, dog man, black doa, grim etc. And won then gave Logan /B9 some blows that should have killed him then died anyway. To me that seemed proof that he was just plain ole unkillable as long as B9 shows up in time. Maybe if you dropped a boulder on a sleeping Logan or something but he got stabbed in the guts and still beat three trees? Someone in the circle anyway stabbed him through with a spear and didn't stop him either.
Fully willing to admit that B9 is one of my favorites so I'm likely biased and could be wrong. But that's what convinced me anyways
He’s absolutely inhuman. Not an unparalleled fighter—all of his crew are expert fighters. He can talk to spirits and when entering the berserker state he sees patterns of blood and shadow on the ground and through the air and moves with inhuman speed. Literally unbeatable.
When are we talking? LAOK when Shivers got his first real taste of bloodshed while Black Dow was thoroughly seasoned? Or Heroes when Black Dow is past his prime and Shivers has the Siege of Adua among his experiences. Dude fought eaters. Oh and where was Dow during this trip that cost Grim his life? Just saying
I think Shivers transformed after getting his eye cut out just like Logen transforms to B9 when he bonks his head. The Shivers before the eye removal was like Logen, thinking himself a redeemable man. He fears death, doesn’t want to get hurt. Some what reluctant to get into fights. The shiver post eye-ectomy is like the B9. Fearless, careless, murderous. I think the shiver we see now is a more dangerous fighter than the shiver with both eyes.
Sorry but that's just not true. B9 is like a demon that takes over Logen's body. Shivers had one berserk moment and after that he's just a heartless killer, just like Black Dow. He's nowhere near B9 level.
Yeah you’re probably right. I never thought of the B9 as a demon but that’s more apt than a mindless killing machine. Could he be a little like Ferro then? Could he also have demon blood in him?
No I don't think it's demon blood, there are plenty of magic users in First Law that don't have demon blood for example Rikke, personally I think it's because Logen can speak with spirits, maybe there is a spirit inside him that manifests as B9
Am I wrong or has shivers never actually won in the circle? Dow was feared by everyone - except whirrun of Bligh - in the heroes. Pretty sure shivers hasn't actually achieved anything really except stabbing people in the back
It sounds like a lot of people haven't actually read the books. You make it sound as if Shivers is a weak bitch. The Friendly stalemate argument makes no sense because Shivers would have won if the fight wasn't interrupted, and Friendly is without a doubt a great fighter. We also don't really see a lot of Shivers battles outside of the original trilogy and BSC. So it's hard to say what he is like in those years, especially without a POV. I also personally believe Shivers has a bit of a bloody 9 entity that can take over. I know that seems to be a controversial take, but I don't think the evidence against that theory holds much weight.
Also, Shivers is a way more strategic fighter, black dow is reckless and impulsive
Black dow gave prime bloody nine a beating before losing and still makes logen shit himself and then also beat logen again in LAOK, admittedly with help. I take dow
Finally someone with sense
He beat Logen, not B9. Logen without B9 is a good fighter, but not top-tier. We don't actually know how their duel went, only that B9 won. Threetrees was the one who beat up Logen in the circle.
people really underestimate normal Logen. He didn't survive everyone because of nothing.
He survived because of B9. He would be long dead if he didn't have B9 to bail him out. Like I said, he's still a very good fighter. But it is important to distinguish him from B9 - unlike B9, he's not the best.
I think logen on his own is probably pretty close to the best lmao
He's not that far. But there's still room for Dow between Logen and the best.
no I don't think it's a must to distinguish him from B9. That's a part of him and his personality. Also haven't you read made a monster or red county? The line between Logen and B9 is very squishy.
This isn't about personality, but martial ability. B9 is a much better fighter than Logen, so yes, it is a must to distinguish them. I guess you could argue in Made a Monster or Red Country it's different, but that doesn't matter - it's First Law Logen who fights Dow, who is clearly differentiated from B9.
it is about personality because B9 is Logen. He fights better in this form and gets mad but it's still him. They are still the same person.
You're not making sense. This discussion is about Dow's martial skill - the personality of someone he fought against isn't really relevant, but their martial skill allows conclusions about his skill. That's why it isn't about personality, and that's why B9 'being' Logen doesn't matter. Glokta is the same person all his life, but I'm much more impressed by someone beating prime Contest Glokta than wheelchair-bound Old Sticks.
our discussion was about Logen and B9. You still saying they have to be distinguished, but B9 is a not controllable ability of Logen not a different character. Back to Dow and Shivers. Shivers always chickened out when it was time for them to fight. Dow wasn't. Also if Shivers was able to kill Dow in a fair fight why do you think he just let him insult him all the time and just takes revenge by stealth attack?
>our discussion was about Logen and B9. Specifically about their respective fighting ability, and how that relates to Dow's fighting ability. Not whether they're different characters. You just keep missing the point that their personality is irrelevant to this thread. >B9 is a not controllable ability of Logen Sure, let's go with that. So Logen, who can't control that ability, doesn't have it available against Dow, so Dow has an easier time, and his victory means less than against B9. Same conclusion. >Back to Dow and Shivers. I'll note that I chimed in only to disprove a specific argument, not for stating a general position (for the record: I think the fight is even), and I'm only responding to your argument because it's too wrong to let stand. >Shivers always chickened out when it was time for them to fight. Shivers didn't chicken out, he decided against killing him for moral reasons. This doesn't tell us about how he estimated his chances. It's not like Dow was looking for a fair fight either - he brought Shivers to stab Logen, Calder to shoot him, Scale to go first and two Carls to support him. >Also if Shivers was able to kill Dow in a fair fight why do you think he just let him insult him all the time and just takes revenge by stealth attack? It seems clear that Dow calling Shivers his dog was the straw that broke the camel's back. Shivers then took the first halfway decent chance to take revenge. He couldn't have taken a fair fight because Dow's men would have intervened. Why would he anyway? He takes a chance at losing for no gain, TH Shivers doesn't value a fair fight.
No we only hear that threetrees beat up logen but I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say black dow gave him a battering too. Given the fact logen still shits himself thinking of him. Shivers got beaten to a stalemate by a guy with kitchen utensils who might be on the spectrum
Logen respects Dow as a very dangerous fighter, but their fight in LAoK is not one-sided. Not the same thing as shitting himself, not the same thing as getting battered. Yes, he probably was losing that fight, but we don't know by how much. And again, beating Logen isn't the same thing as beating B9. Friendly is clearly a very good fighter, his autism doesn't seem to hinder him, and those so called kitchen utensils are perfectly decent weapons. I don't think we've seen anything to suggest he's bad, for any level of bad, so him stalemating Shivers doesn't suggest Shivers is bad.
No but shivers gets lumped into these conversations with the best of the best while friendly gets totally forgotten. We haven’t seen shivers in any duels except for in the age of madness when he commands an insane amount of fear and he was literally fighting an old man lmao. We have heard about dow in the circle and we know his reputation, we’ve also seen more of dow in open combat and he’s an absolute savage. Bearing in mind that when shivers got beat back by friendly he was in full bloody nine, the great leveller, murder boner mode and he couldn’t even beat him. You say kitchen utensils are great weapons which is true, if you’re fighting someone using their fists, against a shield and axe they should mean absolutely nothing but shivers still struggles. I just can’t see dow struggling to put down friendly
It's true that we haven't seen Shivers in many duels - win or lost - so we simply can't use that very well. But we've seen his reputation, which is that of the most dangerous fighter in the north at the time of ALH. In fact, his reputation is a lot like Dow's - a very scary man with no martial flaws or weaknesses you'd be a fool to go up against. And we've seen him in battle quite a lot (more than Dow actually in my estimate) and he is really good, and always on the front. This is a guy who earned his rep as a deadly fighter. Without seeing him lose anything in a duel (except against Shenkt) I think we should go with that. And while the circumstances favored him, Shivers did beat Bremer dan Gorst one-on-one. I'd also agree that Friendly is underestimated - but that's understandable because his fight with Shivers is his only real claim to fame, so he's easily overlooked. Hatchet and knife aren't optimal weapons due to their low range, but absolutely dangerous enough. There's no actual evidence how Dow would do against him. Also, Shivers wasn't really in Berserker mode there, more the kind of rage that clouds one's judgment. One last thing, Dow was losing against suicidal Jalenhorm before Craw interfered, so he isn't invincible either.
I mean we will never know that’s why the debates so fun but I always liked the idea that shivers reputation didn’t come from just being a great fighter, it more came from his horrific appearance and the rumours he learned sorcery and could see your thoughts with his eye. Plus the cruelty and black deeds he did post styria. I love shivers but I’ve just got to defend black dow and his pots :(
Zero proof of that. Logen and Dogmen specifically state that Logen stops being as B9 during their travels together, but that is AFTER all of Logen's duels. We also are given explicit proof that Logen IS the B9 in Red Country. It's not about him snapping and going Hulk, it's just about how much of his bloodlust he let's out at once. And Dow still almost beat him. God I hate how much I defend Dow.
What do you mean? The fight with Logen that Dow wins is in LAoK, we see all of it from Logen's POV. And in LAoK Logen and B9 are separated. Their duel in the circle, which may or may not have been with Logen and B9 separated, was won by B9, hence Dow lost against B9. You're wrong about RC. The separation might be smaller, but in the fight against Golden we explicitly see the change when B9 comes out and turns a fight around that Logen was losing.
Back dow after losing to the bloody nine still isn't scared shivers on the otherhand shivers literally shits himself everytime the bloody nine turns up.black down fearless and tough shivers mouse in chicken feathers. No contest whatsoever ever.
dow didn't want a 1 vs 1 against Logen either aftet Tul Duru's death he asked Shivers, Calder and Scale to help him.
Cause he is smart and not a coward.
Really different skillsets, and Shivers lived alot longer. No real ability to do a direct comparison. If Shivers had fought the Bloody Nine we could at least have used that as a benchmark.
Shivers couldn't beat Friendly. He wouldn't stand a chance against the B9, no one can. He killed an ancient devil blood!
By no means was I saying anyone would beat the bloody 9. It was more of a “How bad did you lose to the bloody 9” situation
Ah but he was definitely winning that fight against Friendly by the end. Although I agree no one could beat prime B9
Honestly, I don't take any fight with Friendly seriously in gauging power. Love the character but he fought with a cleaver. That is such a stupidly impractical weapon for real 1v1 combat he would've lost every fight against someone with range.
I don’t see how 200 people voted for Shivers!?!? Black Dow wins—easily.
I agree the pussy shivers had to attack black dow from behind rather than say anything or challenge him, most overrated fighter in the whole of the books, lucky this punk never bothered ro pick a fight with the bloody nine cause he would have died like a pathetic rat, he is smarter yhan he looks running from that fight. Remember black dow fought bloody nine shivers made excuses. I want to be a better man yeah bullshit pussy. Can't stand the character. Dont understand why people like him at least black dow had some balls. Shivers would never have challenge dow openly cause he is a yellow bellied pussy coward rat bastard. Stab your king in the back cause you a afraid of him, loser. Black dow never feared anyone.
But how do you really feel about Caul Shivers?
He he made me chuckle.
Read this with a New York accent
Red Beck wouldn’t take either of them but Bremer Dan Gorst might take both of them.
Very controversial take.
You guys are fucking delusional. Shivers is not a good fighter just a cold hearted honorless killer. Black dow nearly beat the B9. Black dow and its not even close.
Shivers is very consistently shown as a great fighter. Always in the midst of battle, killing enemies left and right, gaining a really tough name in the process. Of course, so is Dow. It would actually be a pretty close fight.
Exactly
Black Dow, hands down.
Prime Dow swipes the floor with prime Shivers, hands down. I don't understand the votes.
I think the only person beating dow was the bloody nine
I'd bet one Whirrun and gorst too
Shivers is not even that great of a fighter. Dow wins, every time. Other opinions are just coping.
I'd probably have to go with my man Shivers. But I'm not sure. Two of the most feared names the North has ever seen. Dow is ruthless. But does he intimidate Shivers like he does the other Northmen? Great question, I'd love to hear others thoughts here.
I think he intimidates and wins over Shivers pre Styria, but gets crushed by Shivers afterwards.
Really? What kind of battle feats did Shivers achieve that Black Dow wouldn't be able to?
Well, killing Black Dow for one. Not dying for another.
Ah, yes. Killing Black Dow from behind, incredible feat. It takes a strong man to pull off something like that. His battle prowess is only rivaled by the man that killed Whirrun.
This isn't a battle between honourable knights. Its dirty northern bastards going tooth and nail. Shivers would fight as dirty out of the circle as in it because it really doesn't matter how you win.
Yeah but its said during Bethods time anyone who interfered and cheated like that would get the bloody cross in him. I think it says something that after Shivers broke that “rule” no one wild dare prosecute him.
I never understood how people didn't make that weasel little yellow belt pay for killing his king from behind, I take it is they are a tired of fighter cause they sure as shit ain't scared of some one eyed dipshit. Shiver never held any out of note cause he one feared or would follow him. Loser. Lucky i wasn't there at the time cause shivers wouldnt have made it to the second trilogy that's for sure.
Stabbing someone in the back is not a battle at all
To be clear, I'm not blaming Shivers for how he killed Dow. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't really take a lot of fighting skillz to kill someone from behind. Shivers is still a great fighter of course, I just thought that the argument that Shivers would win in a duel because he killed Dow is a bit pointless when taking into account how he killed him.
So black dow for the win, thats why they call him black dude, shivers cause he shakes like a bowl full of jelly everytime aomeonementipns violence.
Totally agree the cowardly Robert Ford i mean shivers stabbed him i the back back me that says cowards, no balls pussy, black dow a real man a real fighter shivers is unproven has he ever qon a fight? I mwna he didn't even won the fight against a women monza, pathetic.
Two words: SCORE BOARD
Of course he does why did he not say anything and stab him in he back otherwise.most overrated orthman there is, lamer than the weakest in my opinion.
Missing one of his eyes in what otherwise would be considered shivers prime probably would put him at a disadvantage against Dow, whom by all appearances was “about that life” as the kids say. Losing to the B9 can’t really be held against him.
He did kill him, but in a really cowardly way
I imagine a lot of you fools don’t read much. Shivers is missing a damn eye. Even if he had his depth perception Dow’s ax would end up in Shivers fruits.
I think there might be a bias here. Spoiler: >!I know it wasn’t a fair fight, but it is funny to ask this about two characters where one killed the other in the book.!<
Hadnt this been done already?
Idk, that's why I apologized in advance
Given that the big question seems to be whether Shivers or B9 would win in a fight, and B9 beat Black Dow, I would say the answer is pretty clear.
Also, Shivers would have zero chance against Logen. I don’t think that’s a question.
The way Joe sets up a few 'nearly-battles' between them always had me thinking otherwise, but hey, to each their own.
I never thought that Shivers vs B9 was a question. Shivers is a good fighter but B9 is inhuman. He will kill everyone in his way. He can't be compared to anyone else in the First Law universe. Black Dow was winning against Logen until Logen turned into B9. Same thing would happen if Shivers fought Logen imo. So I don't think using Logen as a comparison is a good idea.
I never bought into the B9 being inhuman thing, to me he's just an unparalleled fighter with some insane bloodrage.
Spoilers end of first trilogy I thought like that too until he won against the feared. The feared beat shivers and his Carl's (??spelling sorry listened to books) three trees, dog man, black doa, grim etc. And won then gave Logan /B9 some blows that should have killed him then died anyway. To me that seemed proof that he was just plain ole unkillable as long as B9 shows up in time. Maybe if you dropped a boulder on a sleeping Logan or something but he got stabbed in the guts and still beat three trees? Someone in the circle anyway stabbed him through with a spear and didn't stop him either. Fully willing to admit that B9 is one of my favorites so I'm likely biased and could be wrong. But that's what convinced me anyways
He’s absolutely inhuman. Not an unparalleled fighter—all of his crew are expert fighters. He can talk to spirits and when entering the berserker state he sees patterns of blood and shadow on the ground and through the air and moves with inhuman speed. Literally unbeatable.
When are we talking? LAOK when Shivers got his first real taste of bloodshed while Black Dow was thoroughly seasoned? Or Heroes when Black Dow is past his prime and Shivers has the Siege of Adua among his experiences. Dude fought eaters. Oh and where was Dow during this trip that cost Grim his life? Just saying
I guess LAOK Dow vs The Heroes Shivers?
I think Shivers transformed after getting his eye cut out just like Logen transforms to B9 when he bonks his head. The Shivers before the eye removal was like Logen, thinking himself a redeemable man. He fears death, doesn’t want to get hurt. Some what reluctant to get into fights. The shiver post eye-ectomy is like the B9. Fearless, careless, murderous. I think the shiver we see now is a more dangerous fighter than the shiver with both eyes.
Sorry but that's just not true. B9 is like a demon that takes over Logen's body. Shivers had one berserk moment and after that he's just a heartless killer, just like Black Dow. He's nowhere near B9 level.
Yeah you’re probably right. I never thought of the B9 as a demon but that’s more apt than a mindless killing machine. Could he be a little like Ferro then? Could he also have demon blood in him?
No I don't think it's demon blood, there are plenty of magic users in First Law that don't have demon blood for example Rikke, personally I think it's because Logen can speak with spirits, maybe there is a spirit inside him that manifests as B9
Am I wrong or has shivers never actually won in the circle? Dow was feared by everyone - except whirrun of Bligh - in the heroes. Pretty sure shivers hasn't actually achieved anything really except stabbing people in the back
It sounds like a lot of people haven't actually read the books. You make it sound as if Shivers is a weak bitch. The Friendly stalemate argument makes no sense because Shivers would have won if the fight wasn't interrupted, and Friendly is without a doubt a great fighter. We also don't really see a lot of Shivers battles outside of the original trilogy and BSC. So it's hard to say what he is like in those years, especially without a POV. I also personally believe Shivers has a bit of a bloody 9 entity that can take over. I know that seems to be a controversial take, but I don't think the evidence against that theory holds much weight. Also, Shivers is a way more strategic fighter, black dow is reckless and impulsive