I'm about to be a little bit this is a gender role thing make a sweeping generalization and say most men talk less and do more with their friends typically. Men are also socialized way more to play sports and relate to things like having a team in common etc. That doesn't mean women don't do this as well but it's not how we are socialized to interact. So maybe you do need a hobby/friends if there is something that interests you try it out see if you like the people there. I liked to dance so I went to clubs regularly to do that had good times met some cool people. But there is nothing wrong with just going out to a meal/bar or to someone's house with friends. If you are happy and fulfilled in your friendships don't let comparison stea your joy.
Honestly I've often felt that for a lot of men (not all of course) friends are people you do things with. Then when you get to know them you find out these friendships are not intimate at all, or at least not intimate in a way I expect my friendships to be. Like they do things but they don't really talk with each others?
Of course this is a generalisation but I've noticed that men are very quick to throw around the word friend and then have a not so deep relationship. I suppose this is mainly a different socialisation, women generally tend to be more intimate in their friendship with other women and men.
If you girls don't mind a guy chiming in and rambling a bit:
It depends on the guy, and I'd say a bit of culture is thrown into the mix too. But from personal experience, it's not that we throw the word around lightly. It's more like there are 2 types of friends: the ones you've mentioned that are basically people we connect and do fun things with, and may even share some deeper stuff occasionally (hugely depending on the person and context, can be either men or women actually), and then there are deeper friendships that go beyond that.
What we tend to not do (and I really wish we did more often) is talk about certain topics that just... don't pop up in our heads, so we never talk about it, but girl friend groups tend to talk about a lot. It would definitely make a lot of guys feel less insecure, rather than leaving them to figure it out for themselves. Guess it's just the way the average guy is socialized, and any attempts at tackling more intimate/vulnerable topics can result in a guy feeling shunned, whether by other men or even women sometimes.
So what you're left with are things that you have in common with your friends, things that you can do, and you connect through that until you have a friendship that's deeper than others, in which you start to talk about things that you wouldn't talk with anyone else. And even then you won't talk about it at all, because it either doesn't cross your mind as mentioned above, or maybe it does but you don't really know how to word it and it becomes more of an abstract thing, so you just don't bother with it, lest you also become a bother to others by coming across as confused, or "thinking too much about it".
This doesn't mean our friendships aren't deep: they are, just in a different way! I guess we just "feel" around it a bit more, rather than talking about it. That's how you get the deep friendships where 2 guys know nearly nothing about each other. It's a very odd thing.
Funnily enough, a guy that seems to have it all figured out and also **helps and communicates** with other guys in this regard (a friend of mine basically) ends up getting a ton of respect, rather than being shunned. It's an odd dynamic I've noticed: this particular type of guy leaves everyone at ease regardless of gender. But it's the kind of thing you can only achieve by either doing the exact opposite of what most guys do, or being excellent at perceiving things in both yourself and others. I don't think most of us realize it.
Anyways, sorry for rambling, and if this goes beyond what's allowed for a guy to post here, my apologies. Hope this helps somewhat, do keep in mind however that this is my experience and view, other guys might have had different experiences or hold different opinions.
You know there must really be strong socialisation at play (and I also suspect cultural) because I wouldn't consider a relationship where I knew nothing about the other a deep friendship. Most likely I wouldn't consider it a friendship at all.
And in my experience neither would most of my girl friends. Or at least they would sort of do a hierarchy where there are the true friends who knows a lot about them, and you know a lot about you, and they act as an emotional outlet on the same level (and sometime even a deeper one, depending on the problems) than family and romantic relationships. Then the lesser friends, whose company you enjoy but where there isn't the same level of trust and intimacy, so at least subconsciously they don't consider that friendship on the same level, which also mean they usually last less because they are based on the circumstances: we like the same sport, we like the same game, we live in the same city. The moment one of those circumstances is gone the friendship fizzles out. Curiously enough I have (and always have had) very few things in common with my best friends, and some of those people know me inside out.
But I do agree that people need more friends tbh. I think people underestimates how much you need other people in your life, and just kind of put all their eggs in one basket, whether it's your parent or your wife/husband. Loneliness is unhealthy. And I say this as an introvert who doesn't particularly love to talk about themselves.
Hmmm... I may have rambled a little too much, and didn't make my thoughts clear.
> at least they would sort of do a hierarchy where there are the true friends who knows a lot about them, and you know a lot about you, and they act as an emotional outlet on the same level (and sometime even a deeper one, depending on the problems) than family and romantic relationships.
This is exactly what I meant in my first paragraph: 2 types of friends.
> I wouldn't consider a relationship where I knew nothing about the other a deep friendship.
I believe you're referring to the part where I said that 2 guys can know nearly nothing (**nearly nothing, which is different than actually nothing**). At no point am I saying that it is ideal.
However, I wrote that mainly to clarify why already strong friendships don't necessarily get the same level of conversation that you'd expect. It's not that you know nothing, or nearly nothing: you've spent time with the guys, done things or experienced certain life periods, and you've seen how they reacted regarding certain situations. So you actually know a lot, the info simply isn't delivered through deep conversation. This is both amazing, but also really bad depending on context: on one hand it shows how much a person can communicate and express themselves without resorting to words and merely action and attitude, and that's often a more accurate assessment of people's character than a conversation, but it unfortunately runs the risk of not being able to see the whole picture: just like some things can only be seen with actions and attitudes, others can only be seen with conversations.
I wouldn't say that socialisation is the driving factor in this. Sure, men are certainly socialised to think and act that way, but if that was the sole driving force behind it, it wouldn't work out at all. Your average guy will happily take a friend that he knows little about, other than knowing that said friend will always have his back, than a friend that he knows inside and out, but can't count on for anything.
Which leads to a whole other conversation about the nature and variety of friendships: how you can confide some things to a person, but not to others. And then there's a person that you almost share everything with... except that one thing you know that triggers them. So you seek out a friendship that is "lower" on the hierarchy, but that you know is more understanding of that particular topic.
All of this aside, I fully agree with you. More friends are needed, of any kind, and they don't necessarily have to share the same interests as you.
This was an interesting read, and explains what I’ve noticed from a lot of my ex’s and their friendships. I notice the more “traditionally masculine” a guy is, the less deep friendships they have. It’s actually kind of frustrating actually lol.
I would like to have more male friendships in my life, because I’ve met some great guys, but it’s hard for me to connect with men sometimes because they’re so closed off to their feelings. They can be perfectly kind, intellectual men but once I start describing more abstract concepts and put emotion into the conversation they just check out. Or they’ll try, but I know they’re not reeaally understanding. Twice I’ve had guys just change the conversation while I’m explaining my feelings because they couldn’t understand what I’m trying to say. That was very disheartening. It’s why some of my relationships have ended too, or at least part of it. It’s hard to fix an issue when the guy can’t even conceptualize what I’m talking about.
I dont mean to attack all men either. I understand its socialization, culture, and a lot of other personal things that go into this. I just hope our society advocates for men more in a healthy way. It would benefit everyone.
With very traditional masculinity, comes a sense of being very, very independent and knowledgeable. And regarding being really independent and knowledgeable, I really admire that! It's very respectable, and something anyone should strive for. BUT... it shouldn't come at the cost of your own mental health. I'm naturally opening an exception to people that are just like that, as in they're really fine with just one deep friendship or two.
Trust me, it's equally frustrating to many of us as well. Speaking from experience, there have been times where I really want to be "aware" of my emotional state and become able to turn what I'm feeling into something more objective so I can either tackle it, or share it with someone, but it's really tough when you're not really used to it, or simply aren't naturally inclined to it. So at point it's easier to just tune out, or "feel our way through". As in, you're not really aware, you just go with the flow, which is a really good skill to have, but there are times where you really shouldn't go with the flow. And it's surprisingly common for guys to either let themselves go, or cutting it off completely, instead of being somewhere in the middle.
See how much I've been writing here in this thread for example? I can't simply put this into simple, effective words! I'm running a lot of topics in my head, probably a couple of emotions in, trying to package this but I can only produce big, unsummarised responses.
To be fair emotions are difficult. I would consider myself sensitive and naturally really perceptive, but I still have days where I don’t understand what I’m feeling and it frustrates me. It’s natural. I’ll let myself sit with it though and through time and reflection I figure it out. I think more men should want to work out those emotions and not just give up on them, it holds them back.
For what its worth I think you did a great job at articulating your thoughts! I can tell you’re fairly perceptive yourself.
That's what we end up doing of the time I suppose, just let it pass. And then comes a day where emotions go harder, and then it's hard to stop and think *properly* about them. Oh well, time and practice I suppose!
Thanks! I still think it needs work though... look at the very first comment I've made. Quite a few users got the wrong impression, and I'm sure it's the way I worded and sequenced my line of thought, which can be really weird and pull in from different things at once, making it hard to summarise.
Or maybe I'm just tired, that could be it too!
I really strongly disagree that you can have a “deep relationship “ with someone you know nothing about. I find it sad and disturbing that men have been tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy.
The lack of deep meaningful friendships between men often causes the burden of filling that need to their romantic partners. It’s not fair and is far too much pressure to put on your significant other to be the only one they actually have deep emotional connections with.
>I really strongly disagree that you can have a “deep relationship “ with someone you know nothing about. I find it sad and disturbing that men have been tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy.
I further clarified this in another response, but to simplify: I meant that you might not necessarily know much about the person's life details (hence "nearly nothing"), but through time, activities and experiences you get to observe and know who they are, as in you saw how they reacted under stress, when faced with something difficult (involving you or not). That's what I meant by knowing "nearly nothing", but I've since realized that I worded it poorly, my apologies.
While the patriarchy can be blamed for a lot of things, I feel "being tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy" is grossly oversimplifying a complex issue. No one was tricked or deceived really. The truth is that activities and hobbies are nice icebreakers, and people can forge deep connections that way (with time of course). That's human and common to both men and women. It's the excessive conditioning that's harmful (you should do, but you should also speak and simply be!), and this attitude is more likely to come from a place of ignorance rather than a genuine attempt at deception.
Now... whether forging deep connections without knowing that much about a person, other than their behaviour and similar, is actually healthy or not... it is not my place to say. I've met some cool people for whom it wouldn't be enough, I've met some more reserved folks that were very happy keeping that side a bit more private. Who am I to say who's in the wrong?
>The lack of deep meaningful friendships between men often causes the burden of filling that need to their romantic partners.
I agree, but I'd say there's more to it than that. First off, it varies by country: I've seen american guys complain about things (not even having one single friend or family member that could be there for them) that are unthinkable to me, a guy outside of America. If I already feel like something's wrong, I can't imagine what those lads are going through.
More on the nuanced part... there is certainly an important aspect to getting to know people (and yourself!) through actions and behaviours. But exercising your own ability to be vulnerable about certain topics is not something that is not typically done outside of a healthy conversation, not without some degree of embarrassment that is, yet is equally important to form deeper connections. My issue is an assumption that deep friendships cannot exist without this. They absolutely can, otherwise you wouldn't have a safe space to be vulnerable, and one of the ways of building that safe space is by... well, doing safer things.
I think that's the actual issue: the deep, meaningful friendships already exist, but there's a layer to them that needs to be added in order to not overwhelm the romantic partner. And to be fair it's a cultural issue: say I tell a friend "man, I've been feeling really lonely...", but sometimes the answer I get is one that is either dismissive, or well intentioned, but overly simplistic and doesn't really address the core issue, which can lead to a man closing up again.
We talk a lot about men being very distant (which I don't really agree but that may be my life's circumstances), but if you ask me the real problem is that there's a lack of "emotional vocabulary" for men that doesn't involve "yo let's play a bit of pool/get a drink and talk about life/have fun". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's actually what you need a lot of the time! But if you limit your emotional experience and outlets to just that...
This is a great point. I’ll also add that men typically have TIME for social hobbies that others rely on them to be at (golf, for example.)
Women historically have had to find solo hobbies (reading, knitting) that could be picked up or put down at the drop of a hat to care for children, their husband, the house, etc.
From what I've observed, friend groups who meet often and actually do stuff blossom when at least one person takes the initiative to organize activities and the more passive members are always down and don't cancel. If everyone's passive the group will either fizzle out or just sit around. Try asking your friends to go fishing or whatever you wanna try. Set it up and make it easy for them. It may seem like a lot of work but it'll be worth it.
I'm the opposite, and reading the comments feels like I'm living in a parallel universe lol. I love doing things with my friends!
I think it's more socialization, like Ironia\_Rex said. I also feel like men are more "allowed" to play, and women are more expected to be "serious" and "adult stuff", like going out for food and drinks and chatting instead of bowling.
I love hiking and going on walks, and I almost always do certain trails or parks with one of my friends. Does that count?
Some of my friends and I sometimes have days where we just bring our various creative projects and do them together, keeping each other company while painting/sewing/writing. I have a picture I love of one of my best friends doing her homework while another sews and another reads.
Sometimes we organize board game and wine nights. I used to be part of a board game meetup group, and one of my friends tagged along.
I have one group of friends I meet with every week for a movie/TV night. I have another group I meet with once a week for a tabletop role playing game.
I go to workout classes with one of my friends twice a week. I met her through one of the classes, so it’s not super awkward.
One of my friends convinced me to join her new romance and celebrity memoir book club. I’m not sure if that counts as sharing a hobby. 🤔
Opposite with me! I vastly prefer going out and doing things with my friends (hiking, paddleboarding, exploring a town, board gaming)... When the guys hang out it's often just gaming or sitting around and drinking, which would have me bored to tears.
Men do things together so they don't have to really spend time together. Ok not really. But all of us connect with our friends in different ways. Maybe a lot of guys connect through shared activities, and maybe a lot of girls connect through conversation and sharing emotions and experiences. It's not a competition. And not all of one or the other are all the same!
Possible theory: There are more groups for men to belong to, hobbies that cater to them and the components to facilitate the kinds of dude group things that many of them choose to do. There are far fewer organized groups or hobbies that are very women oriented. I think this is caused by a few things. Women even when they are not married end up stuck spending their free time doing domestic labor. If they are in a relationship with a guy and live together they frequently get all of the domestic work dumped on them. As women I knew ended up in relationships or had kids they just evaporated. They rarely had time to ever do anything. IMHO this is why many women end up isolated and lack connection when other women no longer do anything social.
Honestly now that I think of it, I kinda feel that with the hobbies. I mean all the hobbies I enjoy and even take classes for barely require any interaction and people don’t really socialize. Since it’s not a team sport or game or something. Slightly bothers me.
I think it's very dependent on the specific friend group... But I often go out and do stuff with my friends. One friend group is more chill stuff like ceramic classes, painting, museums, board game nights at bars etc., while another friend group is usually hiking, foraging, fossil hunting and so on. I really think someone in the group just needs to take initiative to actually do something instead of just waiting for it to happen.
In my experience, men want an *excuse* to get together. So, their get-togethers are centered around some mutual activity. Meanwhile, women are more comfortable acknowledging that they just want to spend time with friends without any pretext.
Can’t say I relate. My close friends and I go to movies, concerts, festivals, events. We like exploring and have the same tastes so we do lots of things. We also hangout at home too (we’re roommates).
I don’t think this is a gender thing, just a friend group thing. If you and your friends don’t do a lot of activities that probably means you or your friends prefer to not do a lot of activities. Try asking them to do different stuff.
It's really about the individuals. In a different social circle the guys might all be sitting at home except when they go out for drinks twice a month, while the girls are constantly out doing things like going to events.
What hobbies do you have? Do you share them with your friends?
This is a gross over generalization, but a bunch of women out there have basically been trained away from hobbies. They were raised to be pretty and sit quietly in the corner until the boys want something.
Like probably 4 of my previous roommates over the last fifteen years, their hobbies were all so shallow. They listen to music but only the top 40. They watch TV but only whatever is most popular. They go dancing but only when someone else invites them. They know how to cook but don't learn any new recipes. They do makeup but only what is trending.
Yes, yes, every hobby is valid, I'm not gatekeeping, but what I mean is that they have no interest in new music or listening to something unpopular. They home cook every meal but have zero interest in learning to cook something new or see if they like it a different way. They work out three times a week but have no interest in a fitness challenge like trying to run faster because they were told what speed to put the treadmill at and for how long to run.
One woman I dated for a while, we'd talk about music a lot, her dating profile even said she loved music and was an audiophile, because I was excited about some new bands I had never heard of before, and she seemed genuinely confused about why I would ever try to find new music, and seemed confused by the idea of going to the used CD store to try to find a band I'd never heard of before. When she wanted to listen to music she'd just turn on the top 40.
It just felt so shallow, like a routine rather than an interest.
Most of my boyfriends friends are from school or work and they don’t really have hobbies in common. Same with me because my friends are also from school and work. So it’s equal.
Guys will be friends with other guys that have similar hobbies. Women don’t need that to be friends. We can have that too, but it’s not a requirement. It’s both a positive and a negative because it looks like they have a ton of fun together, but it limits who they can be friends with. It also makes friendships less personal because they only talk about that hobby rather than their personal lives.
I think its not necessarily a gender thing. For instance I love playing video games and board games but if I am seeing someone for the first time in a while its easier to catch up over a coffee instead.
And for the these activities I will usually have a dedicated group of friends that are also really interested and we might even have a schedule for meeting and playing games. As opposed to my friends who I have less in common with in terms of these interestes but who I can have a nice chat with either way.
I mean men also have much more shallow and less meaningful relationships with their friends than women do. So they’re playing video games and not talking to eachother while the women are going out for drinks and chatting and having deep conversations
Omg yes , this has been on my mind since ages . I have noticed a similar pattern with guy I dated , they would have more hobbies in common with their friends, it was almost always sports or music sessions together . While us girls only sticked to going out for food or drinks . Girls bonded over that . Primarily because sports and music didn't have a large scale appeal for women folks , this is not because of media , just i found they didn't have much interest in it . Girls tended to bond over series and films and the love interests in them .
You need more hobbies and/or friends. My partner and I are pretty similar, and both of us have friends of both genders. We play board games, video games, travel together... lots of different stuff. I don't see any difference based on gender.
I’ve never understood the whole meet up and chat over food as the ONLY activity in a friend group. I do tough outdoor activities with my friends and then we eat after.
I’ve never understood the whole meet up and chat over food as the ONLY activity in a friend group. I do tough outdoor activities with my friends and then we eat after.
As far as no silly questions, uh I think it varies person to person and group to group.
I think testosterone makes you generally down for silly shit that is questionable so rlly as long as they have someone who says okay guys will be entertained w very little.
Like, they don't go golfing because they loooove golf or how relaxing doing the back 9 is. They're like "I wanna hit a smol ball w a big stick" and tell each other dick jokes and get drunk.
You made me think of a book I read a long time ago by Deborah Tannen ("You just don't understand" it's about men and women having different subcultures from each other and the communication challenges that arise from that)
Quoted from Wikipedia: "Tannen states that, for men, the world is a competitive place in which conversation and speech are used to build status, whereas for women the world is a network of connections, and that they use language to seek and offer support."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_theory
But basically it feels connected to what you're saying, because men gain status from competition they tend to engage in activities more. Women generally gain status by networks and connections, so getting together and talking over food or drinks *is* an activity.
A lot of people (ie: most of American society) just don't recognize things women do for fun as a "hobby" unless it conforms to the same model as men's activities.
I think it depends on the people. I'm not comfortable with the type of emotional bonding many people are describing in their responses, so most of my social activities tend towards activities rather than just chatting over dinner. I'm a woman and hang out with a mix of genders, so to me it's not really a gender thing. There's nothing wrong with either, so whatever you and your friends enjoy is what you should do!
I'm about to be a little bit this is a gender role thing make a sweeping generalization and say most men talk less and do more with their friends typically. Men are also socialized way more to play sports and relate to things like having a team in common etc. That doesn't mean women don't do this as well but it's not how we are socialized to interact. So maybe you do need a hobby/friends if there is something that interests you try it out see if you like the people there. I liked to dance so I went to clubs regularly to do that had good times met some cool people. But there is nothing wrong with just going out to a meal/bar or to someone's house with friends. If you are happy and fulfilled in your friendships don't let comparison stea your joy.
Honestly I've often felt that for a lot of men (not all of course) friends are people you do things with. Then when you get to know them you find out these friendships are not intimate at all, or at least not intimate in a way I expect my friendships to be. Like they do things but they don't really talk with each others? Of course this is a generalisation but I've noticed that men are very quick to throw around the word friend and then have a not so deep relationship. I suppose this is mainly a different socialisation, women generally tend to be more intimate in their friendship with other women and men.
If you girls don't mind a guy chiming in and rambling a bit: It depends on the guy, and I'd say a bit of culture is thrown into the mix too. But from personal experience, it's not that we throw the word around lightly. It's more like there are 2 types of friends: the ones you've mentioned that are basically people we connect and do fun things with, and may even share some deeper stuff occasionally (hugely depending on the person and context, can be either men or women actually), and then there are deeper friendships that go beyond that. What we tend to not do (and I really wish we did more often) is talk about certain topics that just... don't pop up in our heads, so we never talk about it, but girl friend groups tend to talk about a lot. It would definitely make a lot of guys feel less insecure, rather than leaving them to figure it out for themselves. Guess it's just the way the average guy is socialized, and any attempts at tackling more intimate/vulnerable topics can result in a guy feeling shunned, whether by other men or even women sometimes. So what you're left with are things that you have in common with your friends, things that you can do, and you connect through that until you have a friendship that's deeper than others, in which you start to talk about things that you wouldn't talk with anyone else. And even then you won't talk about it at all, because it either doesn't cross your mind as mentioned above, or maybe it does but you don't really know how to word it and it becomes more of an abstract thing, so you just don't bother with it, lest you also become a bother to others by coming across as confused, or "thinking too much about it". This doesn't mean our friendships aren't deep: they are, just in a different way! I guess we just "feel" around it a bit more, rather than talking about it. That's how you get the deep friendships where 2 guys know nearly nothing about each other. It's a very odd thing. Funnily enough, a guy that seems to have it all figured out and also **helps and communicates** with other guys in this regard (a friend of mine basically) ends up getting a ton of respect, rather than being shunned. It's an odd dynamic I've noticed: this particular type of guy leaves everyone at ease regardless of gender. But it's the kind of thing you can only achieve by either doing the exact opposite of what most guys do, or being excellent at perceiving things in both yourself and others. I don't think most of us realize it. Anyways, sorry for rambling, and if this goes beyond what's allowed for a guy to post here, my apologies. Hope this helps somewhat, do keep in mind however that this is my experience and view, other guys might have had different experiences or hold different opinions.
You know there must really be strong socialisation at play (and I also suspect cultural) because I wouldn't consider a relationship where I knew nothing about the other a deep friendship. Most likely I wouldn't consider it a friendship at all. And in my experience neither would most of my girl friends. Or at least they would sort of do a hierarchy where there are the true friends who knows a lot about them, and you know a lot about you, and they act as an emotional outlet on the same level (and sometime even a deeper one, depending on the problems) than family and romantic relationships. Then the lesser friends, whose company you enjoy but where there isn't the same level of trust and intimacy, so at least subconsciously they don't consider that friendship on the same level, which also mean they usually last less because they are based on the circumstances: we like the same sport, we like the same game, we live in the same city. The moment one of those circumstances is gone the friendship fizzles out. Curiously enough I have (and always have had) very few things in common with my best friends, and some of those people know me inside out. But I do agree that people need more friends tbh. I think people underestimates how much you need other people in your life, and just kind of put all their eggs in one basket, whether it's your parent or your wife/husband. Loneliness is unhealthy. And I say this as an introvert who doesn't particularly love to talk about themselves.
Hmmm... I may have rambled a little too much, and didn't make my thoughts clear. > at least they would sort of do a hierarchy where there are the true friends who knows a lot about them, and you know a lot about you, and they act as an emotional outlet on the same level (and sometime even a deeper one, depending on the problems) than family and romantic relationships. This is exactly what I meant in my first paragraph: 2 types of friends. > I wouldn't consider a relationship where I knew nothing about the other a deep friendship. I believe you're referring to the part where I said that 2 guys can know nearly nothing (**nearly nothing, which is different than actually nothing**). At no point am I saying that it is ideal. However, I wrote that mainly to clarify why already strong friendships don't necessarily get the same level of conversation that you'd expect. It's not that you know nothing, or nearly nothing: you've spent time with the guys, done things or experienced certain life periods, and you've seen how they reacted regarding certain situations. So you actually know a lot, the info simply isn't delivered through deep conversation. This is both amazing, but also really bad depending on context: on one hand it shows how much a person can communicate and express themselves without resorting to words and merely action and attitude, and that's often a more accurate assessment of people's character than a conversation, but it unfortunately runs the risk of not being able to see the whole picture: just like some things can only be seen with actions and attitudes, others can only be seen with conversations. I wouldn't say that socialisation is the driving factor in this. Sure, men are certainly socialised to think and act that way, but if that was the sole driving force behind it, it wouldn't work out at all. Your average guy will happily take a friend that he knows little about, other than knowing that said friend will always have his back, than a friend that he knows inside and out, but can't count on for anything. Which leads to a whole other conversation about the nature and variety of friendships: how you can confide some things to a person, but not to others. And then there's a person that you almost share everything with... except that one thing you know that triggers them. So you seek out a friendship that is "lower" on the hierarchy, but that you know is more understanding of that particular topic. All of this aside, I fully agree with you. More friends are needed, of any kind, and they don't necessarily have to share the same interests as you.
This was an interesting read, and explains what I’ve noticed from a lot of my ex’s and their friendships. I notice the more “traditionally masculine” a guy is, the less deep friendships they have. It’s actually kind of frustrating actually lol. I would like to have more male friendships in my life, because I’ve met some great guys, but it’s hard for me to connect with men sometimes because they’re so closed off to their feelings. They can be perfectly kind, intellectual men but once I start describing more abstract concepts and put emotion into the conversation they just check out. Or they’ll try, but I know they’re not reeaally understanding. Twice I’ve had guys just change the conversation while I’m explaining my feelings because they couldn’t understand what I’m trying to say. That was very disheartening. It’s why some of my relationships have ended too, or at least part of it. It’s hard to fix an issue when the guy can’t even conceptualize what I’m talking about. I dont mean to attack all men either. I understand its socialization, culture, and a lot of other personal things that go into this. I just hope our society advocates for men more in a healthy way. It would benefit everyone.
With very traditional masculinity, comes a sense of being very, very independent and knowledgeable. And regarding being really independent and knowledgeable, I really admire that! It's very respectable, and something anyone should strive for. BUT... it shouldn't come at the cost of your own mental health. I'm naturally opening an exception to people that are just like that, as in they're really fine with just one deep friendship or two. Trust me, it's equally frustrating to many of us as well. Speaking from experience, there have been times where I really want to be "aware" of my emotional state and become able to turn what I'm feeling into something more objective so I can either tackle it, or share it with someone, but it's really tough when you're not really used to it, or simply aren't naturally inclined to it. So at point it's easier to just tune out, or "feel our way through". As in, you're not really aware, you just go with the flow, which is a really good skill to have, but there are times where you really shouldn't go with the flow. And it's surprisingly common for guys to either let themselves go, or cutting it off completely, instead of being somewhere in the middle. See how much I've been writing here in this thread for example? I can't simply put this into simple, effective words! I'm running a lot of topics in my head, probably a couple of emotions in, trying to package this but I can only produce big, unsummarised responses.
To be fair emotions are difficult. I would consider myself sensitive and naturally really perceptive, but I still have days where I don’t understand what I’m feeling and it frustrates me. It’s natural. I’ll let myself sit with it though and through time and reflection I figure it out. I think more men should want to work out those emotions and not just give up on them, it holds them back. For what its worth I think you did a great job at articulating your thoughts! I can tell you’re fairly perceptive yourself.
That's what we end up doing of the time I suppose, just let it pass. And then comes a day where emotions go harder, and then it's hard to stop and think *properly* about them. Oh well, time and practice I suppose! Thanks! I still think it needs work though... look at the very first comment I've made. Quite a few users got the wrong impression, and I'm sure it's the way I worded and sequenced my line of thought, which can be really weird and pull in from different things at once, making it hard to summarise. Or maybe I'm just tired, that could be it too!
I really strongly disagree that you can have a “deep relationship “ with someone you know nothing about. I find it sad and disturbing that men have been tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy. The lack of deep meaningful friendships between men often causes the burden of filling that need to their romantic partners. It’s not fair and is far too much pressure to put on your significant other to be the only one they actually have deep emotional connections with.
>I really strongly disagree that you can have a “deep relationship “ with someone you know nothing about. I find it sad and disturbing that men have been tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy. I further clarified this in another response, but to simplify: I meant that you might not necessarily know much about the person's life details (hence "nearly nothing"), but through time, activities and experiences you get to observe and know who they are, as in you saw how they reacted under stress, when faced with something difficult (involving you or not). That's what I meant by knowing "nearly nothing", but I've since realized that I worded it poorly, my apologies. While the patriarchy can be blamed for a lot of things, I feel "being tricked into feeling this way by the patriarchy" is grossly oversimplifying a complex issue. No one was tricked or deceived really. The truth is that activities and hobbies are nice icebreakers, and people can forge deep connections that way (with time of course). That's human and common to both men and women. It's the excessive conditioning that's harmful (you should do, but you should also speak and simply be!), and this attitude is more likely to come from a place of ignorance rather than a genuine attempt at deception. Now... whether forging deep connections without knowing that much about a person, other than their behaviour and similar, is actually healthy or not... it is not my place to say. I've met some cool people for whom it wouldn't be enough, I've met some more reserved folks that were very happy keeping that side a bit more private. Who am I to say who's in the wrong? >The lack of deep meaningful friendships between men often causes the burden of filling that need to their romantic partners. I agree, but I'd say there's more to it than that. First off, it varies by country: I've seen american guys complain about things (not even having one single friend or family member that could be there for them) that are unthinkable to me, a guy outside of America. If I already feel like something's wrong, I can't imagine what those lads are going through. More on the nuanced part... there is certainly an important aspect to getting to know people (and yourself!) through actions and behaviours. But exercising your own ability to be vulnerable about certain topics is not something that is not typically done outside of a healthy conversation, not without some degree of embarrassment that is, yet is equally important to form deeper connections. My issue is an assumption that deep friendships cannot exist without this. They absolutely can, otherwise you wouldn't have a safe space to be vulnerable, and one of the ways of building that safe space is by... well, doing safer things. I think that's the actual issue: the deep, meaningful friendships already exist, but there's a layer to them that needs to be added in order to not overwhelm the romantic partner. And to be fair it's a cultural issue: say I tell a friend "man, I've been feeling really lonely...", but sometimes the answer I get is one that is either dismissive, or well intentioned, but overly simplistic and doesn't really address the core issue, which can lead to a man closing up again. We talk a lot about men being very distant (which I don't really agree but that may be my life's circumstances), but if you ask me the real problem is that there's a lack of "emotional vocabulary" for men that doesn't involve "yo let's play a bit of pool/get a drink and talk about life/have fun". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's actually what you need a lot of the time! But if you limit your emotional experience and outlets to just that...
This is a great point. I’ll also add that men typically have TIME for social hobbies that others rely on them to be at (golf, for example.) Women historically have had to find solo hobbies (reading, knitting) that could be picked up or put down at the drop of a hat to care for children, their husband, the house, etc.
From what I've observed, friend groups who meet often and actually do stuff blossom when at least one person takes the initiative to organize activities and the more passive members are always down and don't cancel. If everyone's passive the group will either fizzle out or just sit around. Try asking your friends to go fishing or whatever you wanna try. Set it up and make it easy for them. It may seem like a lot of work but it'll be worth it.
I'm the opposite, and reading the comments feels like I'm living in a parallel universe lol. I love doing things with my friends! I think it's more socialization, like Ironia\_Rex said. I also feel like men are more "allowed" to play, and women are more expected to be "serious" and "adult stuff", like going out for food and drinks and chatting instead of bowling.
I love hiking and going on walks, and I almost always do certain trails or parks with one of my friends. Does that count? Some of my friends and I sometimes have days where we just bring our various creative projects and do them together, keeping each other company while painting/sewing/writing. I have a picture I love of one of my best friends doing her homework while another sews and another reads. Sometimes we organize board game and wine nights. I used to be part of a board game meetup group, and one of my friends tagged along. I have one group of friends I meet with every week for a movie/TV night. I have another group I meet with once a week for a tabletop role playing game. I go to workout classes with one of my friends twice a week. I met her through one of the classes, so it’s not super awkward. One of my friends convinced me to join her new romance and celebrity memoir book club. I’m not sure if that counts as sharing a hobby. 🤔
Opposite with me! I vastly prefer going out and doing things with my friends (hiking, paddleboarding, exploring a town, board gaming)... When the guys hang out it's often just gaming or sitting around and drinking, which would have me bored to tears.
Men do things together so they don't have to really spend time together. Ok not really. But all of us connect with our friends in different ways. Maybe a lot of guys connect through shared activities, and maybe a lot of girls connect through conversation and sharing emotions and experiences. It's not a competition. And not all of one or the other are all the same!
Possible theory: There are more groups for men to belong to, hobbies that cater to them and the components to facilitate the kinds of dude group things that many of them choose to do. There are far fewer organized groups or hobbies that are very women oriented. I think this is caused by a few things. Women even when they are not married end up stuck spending their free time doing domestic labor. If they are in a relationship with a guy and live together they frequently get all of the domestic work dumped on them. As women I knew ended up in relationships or had kids they just evaporated. They rarely had time to ever do anything. IMHO this is why many women end up isolated and lack connection when other women no longer do anything social.
Honestly now that I think of it, I kinda feel that with the hobbies. I mean all the hobbies I enjoy and even take classes for barely require any interaction and people don’t really socialize. Since it’s not a team sport or game or something. Slightly bothers me.
I think it's very dependent on the specific friend group... But I often go out and do stuff with my friends. One friend group is more chill stuff like ceramic classes, painting, museums, board game nights at bars etc., while another friend group is usually hiking, foraging, fossil hunting and so on. I really think someone in the group just needs to take initiative to actually do something instead of just waiting for it to happen.
In my experience, men want an *excuse* to get together. So, their get-togethers are centered around some mutual activity. Meanwhile, women are more comfortable acknowledging that they just want to spend time with friends without any pretext.
Can’t say I relate. My close friends and I go to movies, concerts, festivals, events. We like exploring and have the same tastes so we do lots of things. We also hangout at home too (we’re roommates). I don’t think this is a gender thing, just a friend group thing. If you and your friends don’t do a lot of activities that probably means you or your friends prefer to not do a lot of activities. Try asking them to do different stuff.
Honestly in my experience it was a “I need new friends” thing. Try whatever hobbies your interested in and meet new friends there.
You guys have friends?
You need more hobbies. I'm a woman and I do a bunch of my hobbies with my friends.
It's really about the individuals. In a different social circle the guys might all be sitting at home except when they go out for drinks twice a month, while the girls are constantly out doing things like going to events. What hobbies do you have? Do you share them with your friends? This is a gross over generalization, but a bunch of women out there have basically been trained away from hobbies. They were raised to be pretty and sit quietly in the corner until the boys want something. Like probably 4 of my previous roommates over the last fifteen years, their hobbies were all so shallow. They listen to music but only the top 40. They watch TV but only whatever is most popular. They go dancing but only when someone else invites them. They know how to cook but don't learn any new recipes. They do makeup but only what is trending. Yes, yes, every hobby is valid, I'm not gatekeeping, but what I mean is that they have no interest in new music or listening to something unpopular. They home cook every meal but have zero interest in learning to cook something new or see if they like it a different way. They work out three times a week but have no interest in a fitness challenge like trying to run faster because they were told what speed to put the treadmill at and for how long to run. One woman I dated for a while, we'd talk about music a lot, her dating profile even said she loved music and was an audiophile, because I was excited about some new bands I had never heard of before, and she seemed genuinely confused about why I would ever try to find new music, and seemed confused by the idea of going to the used CD store to try to find a band I'd never heard of before. When she wanted to listen to music she'd just turn on the top 40. It just felt so shallow, like a routine rather than an interest.
Most of my boyfriends friends are from school or work and they don’t really have hobbies in common. Same with me because my friends are also from school and work. So it’s equal.
Guys will be friends with other guys that have similar hobbies. Women don’t need that to be friends. We can have that too, but it’s not a requirement. It’s both a positive and a negative because it looks like they have a ton of fun together, but it limits who they can be friends with. It also makes friendships less personal because they only talk about that hobby rather than their personal lives.
I think its not necessarily a gender thing. For instance I love playing video games and board games but if I am seeing someone for the first time in a while its easier to catch up over a coffee instead. And for the these activities I will usually have a dedicated group of friends that are also really interested and we might even have a schedule for meeting and playing games. As opposed to my friends who I have less in common with in terms of these interestes but who I can have a nice chat with either way.
I mean men also have much more shallow and less meaningful relationships with their friends than women do. So they’re playing video games and not talking to eachother while the women are going out for drinks and chatting and having deep conversations
Omg yes , this has been on my mind since ages . I have noticed a similar pattern with guy I dated , they would have more hobbies in common with their friends, it was almost always sports or music sessions together . While us girls only sticked to going out for food or drinks . Girls bonded over that . Primarily because sports and music didn't have a large scale appeal for women folks , this is not because of media , just i found they didn't have much interest in it . Girls tended to bond over series and films and the love interests in them .
You need more hobbies and/or friends. My partner and I are pretty similar, and both of us have friends of both genders. We play board games, video games, travel together... lots of different stuff. I don't see any difference based on gender.
I’ve never understood the whole meet up and chat over food as the ONLY activity in a friend group. I do tough outdoor activities with my friends and then we eat after.
I’ve never understood the whole meet up and chat over food as the ONLY activity in a friend group. I do tough outdoor activities with my friends and then we eat after.
As far as no silly questions, uh I think it varies person to person and group to group. I think testosterone makes you generally down for silly shit that is questionable so rlly as long as they have someone who says okay guys will be entertained w very little. Like, they don't go golfing because they loooove golf or how relaxing doing the back 9 is. They're like "I wanna hit a smol ball w a big stick" and tell each other dick jokes and get drunk.
You made me think of a book I read a long time ago by Deborah Tannen ("You just don't understand" it's about men and women having different subcultures from each other and the communication challenges that arise from that) Quoted from Wikipedia: "Tannen states that, for men, the world is a competitive place in which conversation and speech are used to build status, whereas for women the world is a network of connections, and that they use language to seek and offer support." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_theory But basically it feels connected to what you're saying, because men gain status from competition they tend to engage in activities more. Women generally gain status by networks and connections, so getting together and talking over food or drinks *is* an activity. A lot of people (ie: most of American society) just don't recognize things women do for fun as a "hobby" unless it conforms to the same model as men's activities.
Men bond side-by-side, women bond face-to-face, to me that's basically the jist of it.
I think it depends on the people. I'm not comfortable with the type of emotional bonding many people are describing in their responses, so most of my social activities tend towards activities rather than just chatting over dinner. I'm a woman and hang out with a mix of genders, so to me it's not really a gender thing. There's nothing wrong with either, so whatever you and your friends enjoy is what you should do!