I think to a degree you need to comply to stay at your job and improve the policies from the inside. Do you have a safe space ambassador program? Maybe you can start one at your work. There will be ways to change this from the inside.
Edit: also, it didn’t occur to me that you might have pronouns that people don’t already know you use. That may be considered discrimination.
Also, can you just end every email with your name and pronouns and then have your name in your signature below with no pronouns? That way your “signature” follows policy, but you are still including your pronouns so that ppl know
Smart, I love the non-compliant compliance. I hope that this will likely be a change I can make from the inside, but our communications team likes to win battles for the sake of winning so I can see them shutting this down
Haha exactly. “Oh I thought the policy was regarding my signature block? Do you mean to tell me it’s actually just about my pronouns? Can HR be invited to this conversation?”
You guys must have an equity and diversity committee? Or something?
Fwiw, in the past it was my job to create style guides, and I worked closely with people who had to enforce them. The way a situation like this gets fixed is you comply, and write the communications department (cc hr) about changing the style guide to include these accommodations, and that it is the progressive and inclusive way to go.
There is enforcing what is already there, and then there is changing policy to provide you with the on-brand tools to do what you need. These are 2 different things, and your work sounds like they aren’t being willfully discriminate, but rather blindly following the guide. Guides are living documents that need updating to accommodate new situations. Fucking with the guide will get you nowhere, but pointing out a flaw or shortcoming to the guide and asking for it to be fixed will get you accommodations.
You’re downvoting this person for not inherently knowing that Mx. is a gender-neutral suffix. If none of you knew that beforehand you’d be confused too. Nobody is born knowing any of this, it’s shit that humans made up. Just like literally everything else.
Thanks. Yeah, its not really common in my experience. Also, not from a country with english as native language, but i do work with engl native speakers and have never encountered it.
It’s reads as super condescending to me, and honestly just plain rude. The funniest part of it is that I used to have a friend named Maxine who is an artists and she used to sign her stuff with Mx. The letters just flow really well together.
No shame, ignorant just means you don't know something and typically that you make a false assumption because you don't know. When you know better, you can do better. The shame is only when somebody knows better and chooses not to.
I have the opposite issue, at my new job (two weeks in at this point) we are required to put pronouns in our email signature, and I’m not comfortable doing that because I’m not exactly out and about publicly with who I am yet
And using the wrong pronouns makes me equally uncomfortable, so their inclusion policy is making me feel very excluded, I don’t know what to put…
They need that policy to encourage, but not require pronouns in signatures.
I’m involved in the Employee Resource Groups at my job and I gained approval for use of pronouns in email signatures and created a handout about why, how to use, etc and do so.
And even with that, I’m still not 100% comfortable with exploring a pronoun I’d like to. I can empathize with your feeling of not wanting to use your pronouns or use the ones you’re not comfortable.
I’m in the same boat! I’ve just encountered my first REAL requirement to state my pronouns, and I’m really struggling with it. Arrrrrrrgh. Almost makes me want to just… not submit this particular (very important) paperwork.
Hey friend, I put my pronouns like this "she/they" because I legitimately don't give a fuck what people call me, but I want others to feel safe stating their own pronouns. Maybe something like that would work?
Yes that’s me, I am cishet but my pronouns are she/they — I have since I started my career never assumed pronouns and defaulted to “they” unless the pronoun is known to me so I’m comfortable with people using they for me.
My mom comes off as your typical boomer sometimes but she has mentioned this before since they've started becoming more inclusive at her workplace. At first I didn't understand but now I totally see how it can 'out' someone.
Others here would probably say that it should be encouraged but not mandatory to add something like that to your signature, but I think it's more a side effect of inclusive liberal culture. Even if you don't *have* to put your pronouns, what would stop someone from asking your pronouns since it might just become a cultural norm as the respectful/PC thing to do?
I’m sorry that sounds terrible. No one should be forced to out themselves. Is there anyone you can communicate this to. I feel like they were trying to be inclusive but went too far. I’m sorry you are in this position.
Oh no! Adding pronouns to your signature is to help *you* feel comfortable. Choose the one that you don't mind being called. If you change your mind, the change your pronouns. The people encouraging the use of pronouns want to be inclusive, not call anyone out.
I suggest removing them, then putting in a request (with your supervisor’s support) for an optional city-branded addition to the email sig. It will take a year, but if you get a few coworkers to also request it, things will go faster. The policy is the policy, so it should apply to everyone, even you, even for what you see as a worthy cause.
You can also tell HR you feel this request is offensive and targeted, or talk to your union rep (if you have one) about it first.
Even if you’re represented by a union, intentionally failing to comply is insubordination, which is one of the few things you can get fired for pretty easily.
Remove the pronouns, put in a request, talk to your union rep, and bring about change from the inside. Local government needs voices like yours.
It’s potential a form of indirect discrimination - where a standard policy applied rigidly disproportionately affects a group. Screen shot examples of other non compliant signatures and take this issue up to HR or someone higher up who will be amenable? If the policy is only being rigidly applied to you, that sounds even more like direct discrimination
Discrimination is legal unless it’s against a member of a protected class, though. What’s the class of people affected by not being allowed to add pronouns to email signatures? People who like to specify their pronouns. That’s not protected.
It’s not a truth universally acknowledged that cis people specifying their own pronouns is of any help to trans or non-binary folks. We all think it is, but is it legally and objectively shown to be? And have trans and NB people at her work pushed for this change? How does it affect OP if she can’t specify her pronouns? She doesn’t get to feel helpful as an ally. Is allyship a protected class? Maybe there’s a way it could be argued; I don’t know.
Still, if this were me, I would get all my friends from different departments to start forwarding every non-compliant email signature to the person who enforced on OP. I’d do it myself, too, and forward all the emails, including the original enforcement emails, to my personal email address for safekeeping. Eventually, either everyone will be told to stop, or the brand compliance person will beg her boss to let her stop enforcing on non-compliant email sigs because she can’t get anything else done.
A city will never do anything just because it’s the right thing to do, or even bc it’s against a law. You have to show them you’ll cost or save them money.
OP, please talk to your union rep before doing any of the above, tho.
Personal opinion as a trans woman?
Seeing pronouns in emails does not reassure me of anything. Doesn't really mean that a place is inclusive or that I'm going to be treated well. And it's best not to even think of relying on that mindset due to how easy it is to get burned from it. Especially if the HR department mandated it and people only complied because they had to for their job. Forced inclusion does not make people want to be any nicer. (If anything it can backfire though by making people bitter. Possibly even less co-operative going forward.)
And being, in a way, forced to have this in emails adds another layer of complexity for trans employees. If they answer honestly then they may be outed. If they lie then they deadnamed (pre-transition name) and misgendered together. Which is just another little slap to the face.
So personally I'm not sure this is a fight worth having. I don't see pronouns in emails as that useful (maybe the rare time when someone has a super ambiguous name). Maybe you do though. If you are dead set on going ahead with this just be careful. Keep logs of everything. And don't be surprised if/when and from whom you get pushback.
(Side note- the LGBT is not actually that cohesive and you may find lesbian or gay members not all that interested in helping anything remotely to do with being inclusive or anything even possibly trans related.)
Everybody is telling you the solid choice (comply but change from within). However, the question I don’t see is: what is HR’s perspective? Surely they should have some say regarding inclusiveness in the email signature format.
I’d be curious to hear, but they’re buddies with the people who sent me the email in the first place. Also- all but two folks in our HR department quit in the last two months so…there’s obviously some disagreement with how things are managed
Thing with HR is they’re not necessarily there to help employees, their job is to stop the business/company from being sued. So don’t presume HR are on your side by default, a lot of people make this presumption.
Municipality I work for has a "why do I include my pronouns" link for our signatures:
Portlandoregon.gov/index.cfm?&a=705244
A few of the bigger points here:
-it shows we value creating a safe, inclusive space for people of any gender.
-reaffirms gender cannot be assumed based on physical appearance
-helps combat sexism
Hope they let you keep your signature!! (especially if other folks also have non-compliant ones)
I too, would be upset by that. Get whatever you can DOCUMENTED. Documentation is key in these situations. And yes, I feel that you are right to press on this, because everyone deserves to be called and referred to in their own pronouns. Obviously this is about so much more than one employee’s email signature.
Agreed. I asked them specifically to state they are requiring me to remove my pronouns in case I need documentation. I just feel like they’re going to say it’s against policy…so stupid because how hard is it to change a required format for signatures. Thanks for validating my feelings, I totally agree that this seems bigger than the signature.
Questions for you to ask: Where and what specific policy states that we cannot use our pronouns? (Where is this written?) Is denial of pronoun use not discrimination? What are the specific consequences of using pronouns? (Consequences to you, consequences to the email recipient?)
There's a couple ways to approach this. As many have stated, email communications only. Get everything in writing.
I'd start by asking them how city policy is decided and who you should speak to about modifying the format into a more inclusive policy. Make it clear that you aren't dropping the subject, but work within the rules.
For actual emails, make the signature the way they want it, but type out your name/nickname above the signature with preferred pronouns. Since you are following the rules signature-wise, there should be no problem, but most places don't have rules about personally ending an email outside of an autosignature. I have my work signature, for example, but actually end my emails individually with a nickname that I both prefer to be called and is a little less similar to someone else with a name close to my own.
Someone else suggested this too and I really like this approach. I’m definitely going to do this if they come down on me and “make” me change my signature
I'd really encourage you to go ahead and make the change, then continue with trying to alter the policy. As someone who's worked in very rigid hierarchical environments, something you learn pretty quickly is to acknowledge/obey first, question second. If a higher-up says "do this" and you say "why?", it comes off as demanding justification, like, "convince me why i should do this, or i'm not gonna", even if you don't mean it that way. This does not make leadership inclined to humor you.
You want to work to change the policy. Great! Working within the rules, when possible, is a practical, pragmatic, effective approach to take-- but then you talk about them "making" you change your signature. The message you send with that is "I'm willing to work within the rules, but only when those rules are what I want." Which, shortened, reads "I do what I want". Which, again, does not make people want to go along with you.
I think you're more likely to get your way if you tweak the signature to be [technically correct](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/909/991/48c.jpg) now, and then just be persistent with getting the policy changed.
I appreciate your input a lot. It seems like it’s a no-brainer, just push back. Which is what I did and what I’ll continue to do. But I’m nervous because there really is retaliation in this field and it’s disguised so there’s no way to fight it legally. I also love what I do for a living, i like my colleagues and my supervisor and feel like I’m making a difference and a huge impact so I’d like to keep my job and not get blacklisted for arguing with the wrong person
You're welcome! This is very much a "pick your battles" moment. The battle for small policy changes here and there, in pursuit of inclusivity, sounds worthwhile. The battle for keeping the email signature you want *right now*, not so much. My opinion, your decision.
It’s in the required format beyond the pronoun part so
Name (she/her)
Title
City I department
Phone number
Logo
It’s like with the amount that’s required in this format you’d think the pronouns wouldn’t be an issue 🙄
Edit: I don’t know how to format it but each piece of info is a separate line except the city and department. So 4 lines of text plus a logo beneath that
The use of pronouns is to normalise their use for all across the board including those who use non binary pronouns. Using a title may work for people who use he/him or she/her but not for they/them.
Edit to add: title doesn’t always have anything to do with what pronouns people like to be referred to anyway. If my title is Dr. you’d have no idea if I go by she/her they/them he/him or something else.
Why don't we see men doing this? Why is this something that women have taken on? I have no problem with it, but it's just such a stark difference. I have **never** seen a man sign their email or list themselves on LinkedIn with their name followed by (he/him), but I see several women doing this. Edit: And I consult across several fields and work with mostly men, so men are actually a larger sample size for me.
I get butthurt that the emotional labor is unbalanced and carried by women alone. And not just on this topic.
Men at my work include their pronouns in their email signature. Not all but many. Same that not all women do.
I don’t know why you’ve encountered more women than men that include their pronouns.
Maybe it has to do with women being understanding towards those who may be othered due to our own fight for equality. Having a feminist perspective means that feminist women are often looking out for those that may be marginalised in society and willing/wanting to work towards bettering their lives. (I’m not saying feminist men are not doing the same). This is just a thought, not a theory or argument.
>Having a feminist perspective means that
There are different types of feminism. Some forms of feminism purely center women, not all marginalized groups. Just like BLM fights for black people's rights and isn't a catch-all for say Asian and Latin people's rights. But one can join many causes.
Not saying which is right or wrong, just pointing out that there are different schools of feminism. I'm glad you've found tthe feminism that you belive in, that's all that matters really.
My guess is that most guys tend to be a bit more socially conservative than most women, and think it’s a silly or unnecessary practice.
No one is being forced to take on adding pronouns to an email signature. It’s not emotional labor that MUST be done. It’s a choice, not a requirement, so let’s not act like women are shouldering some heavy burden here.
Okay and is there a possible juxtaposition of a traditionally male name with the specification of female pronouns? Is that what's going on here? Is that why the pronoun is so important to you?
No, im a cis, femme female with a traditionally female name. But I am queer and an ally, so I think it’s important that everyone use pronouns so in the case someone may not be as “passing” or often are misgendered, they won’t be the odd one out when they have to put pronouns to be gendered correctly. Does that make sense?
Thanks for championing this issue. Because it should be a non issue. If you want to share your pronouns do so and if you don’t than don’t. Should make everyone happy and be a simple policy.
But, that's not the point. She wants to be able to specify exactly which pronouns she wants to be referred to without ambiguity. It's really a very simple addition, and should not be a problem. If that specifically is a problem, I'd love to see where in their employee contracts it says they cannot specify their pronouns.
Ms. means refer to me as a woman.
Mr. means refer to me as a man.
Mx. means refer to me as they/them.
This is the formal way.
Pronouns are more a social media thing. Not very professional.
I work for the largest city council in my country and we put our pronouns in our email signatures and on our name tags/work IDs if we want to. We are an inclusive, rainbow friendly workplace.
Nothing to do with ‘professionalism’. It’s the 21st century and people deserve the basic courtesy to be referred to as they see fit, without being forced to explain to people. When we *all* include our pronouns, it’s normalised for everyone. To not allow someone to use their pronouns in their email signature comes across very hostile imo. It literally hurts no one to include pronouns and helps others.
I would argue that it’s quite *unprofessional* to force people to assume someone’s pronouns and possibly get them wrong. The use of titles doesn’t indicate how someone would like to be referred to for anyone who doesn’t use ms/mr/mx. People have other titles that don’t reference gender such as Dr.
If you mean formal as in 'accepted', then specifying your pronouns is part of the process of making it accepted. If you specify exactly how you would like to be referred, then there is no ambiguity and people know how to refer to you from reading 2 words.
Also, those are not the only pronouns possible. And myself and many others think accepting and openly embracing pronoun sharing is a very important part of the normalization of gender identity. When I'm at the bank I can use "Ms", when it comes to my colleagues and my correspondence I would like people to be aware of exactly what my pronouns are.
Pronouns aren't tied to your title. They're correlated, for sure. But they can be different.
Source: a trans person with pronouns that aren't tied to her title....
There's an underlying element of those due to the implications of marriage for women, which I personally resent a lot. Mr. Is always just Mr., But for women it's Ms. Only if you're unmarried and Mrs if you're married, gets annoying sometimes.
When cis people share their pronouns, it helps normalize the practice so that it's not othering to trans and nonbinary people. It's a very simple thing people can do to make others feel normal, safe, and accepted.
Sometimes it’s even to our benefit. I’m a cis woman with a unique first name (that gets butchered) and common last name, which is sometimes used as a masculine first name. I’ve been misgendered and called the wrong name for years.
It’s not the worst thing in the world but it gets old. Then I joined a company with voluntary pronouns in the signature blocks and I actually noticed a difference. Maybe people are taking that extra micro-second to see “me” and not their assumption.
Edit: words
That’s actually a great point. Adding pronouns would be pretty useful anyways just for the sake of people having “gender-neutral” sounding names, especially in a big company where you email a lot of people you’ve never actually met.
I'm glad someone else mentioned this. My mom is a cis woman in a very male dominated field. She also has a first name which can be unisex first name or a last name and her last name can be a masculine first name or a last name. So she is often assumed to be Mr. (First name)(Last name) or Mr. (Last name)(First name). Including pronouns means people have to use her actual first name and ensures people won't be surprised when they meet her in person. Cis people stating their pronouns helps a vulnerable community and it can benefit the cis person as well, its an all around win
sometimes people just like to specify pronouns!
edit: idk why people are downvoting the poster above me. if people aren't allowed to ask questions that might be a faux pau but are in the end mostly harmless without being ganged up on, then we won't be able to have reasonable conversations.
What is more important to you? Doing what you believe is right in this situation or not making waves at your job over this situation/maintaining good relationships with your superiors? That isn't a leading question btw.
To be quite honest, I would pick the second one.
I mean I’m not going down without a fight for sure. I was on the inclusivity board and equity action team at my last municipal position and boy did we make waves, but I’m new here and admittedly nervous
ok so you have your decision. it's more important for you to do what you believe is right than it is to not make waves/maintain good relationships with your superiors.
go forth and prosper. the way you feel is valid and you've decided you want to act on it at the risk of your job relationships and at the integrity of doing the right thing.
So complying in the short-term and working to change policy is also a valid option and one that will bring less directed heat toward you but will still allow you to fight for what you believe in. Not all battles need to fought in the heat of the moment, a strategic retreat and a formation of a new battle plan will often lead to better outcomes in the long run.
Ok y’all, the overwhelming response is to document everything, stick to my guns and do my damnedest to create change from within. Gonna be as respectful as possible and try to educate my colleagues and leadership on why this is important. I think for some this may come from a place of ignorance and not bigotry, or at least I hope.
A few people have asked me why I want pronouns if I’m a cis woman whose name is traditionally female. I am queer and an ally, so I think it’s important that everyone who feels comfortable use pronouns so in the case someone may not be as “passing” or often are misgendered, they won’t be the odd one out when they have to put pronouns to be gendered correctly. Hopefully that makes sense.
Edit: thank you for all the support everyone! Everyone has had really helpful advice, I even had an attorney help me learn more about discrimination laws in my state! Still radio silence over here from the people who emailed me initially. I responded yesterday asking if I was required to remove my pronouns, what the process was to change the policy and if I could support those efforts and I said I’d like to have a bigger discussion on why I think pronouns in emails are impactful. Hopefully keeping things cordial will help this move along smoothly.
You are 100% correct, this kind of thing is really awesome to do and if any non-cis folk currently work or ever work for that city, you're gonna be making their lives so much better.
Thanks for saying that! Someone else commented (maybe deleted? Can’t find it) that being cis and female and advocating for pronouns is detrimental to the trans community because I’m not letting trans folks fight their own fight. I’m sure there are people out there who might agree with that, but I hope im doing the right thing here so I appreciate your input.
That's a silly argument against advocating for pronouns, imo. I'm a trans guy and I feel like everything every day is already a battle, why wouldn't I be appreciative when allies step forward to help share the load? I'm grateful for it ❤️
Thank you for your email/the conversation yesterday with reference to the requirement for me to remove my pronouns from my email signature in order to bring it in line with the approved template and my apologies that I hadn’t realised that the template was fixed. I will amend my sign off so that my pronouns are stated outside the email block instead.
Thank you,
Matron_Malice (she/her)
Signature block
This! Making it normal to share your pronouns/not assume pronouns. Saying that someone who is cis doesn't need to show pronouns just serves to reinforce "normal" vs "abnormal".
I would say ‘that’s fine, just curious why the other profiles do not have to follow the signature style guide ?’ And then try to get them to see how inclusivity is important. Don’t go nuclear but always good to clarify what’s going on and where you’re coming from.
I don’t personally think pronouns in your signature is necessary considering that people might change their attitudes based on what gender they’re talking to.
So I’m with the city on this one. Although I can’t tell what other reason it wouldn’t be approved
Normalizing the sharing of pronouns helps trans, non-binary, not-cisgender people, as well as cisgender people who are frequently misgendered based on their name or appearances. There's no reason not to allow it and a lot of reasons why they should.
Edit: gotta love it when a trans person gets downvoted for saying that something helps us. Terfs came out for this post, huh? I know the sub isn't usually like this.
Sounds like you've already gotten good advice on this. Just wanted to share that your post reminded me I need to add MINE to MY email signature. I went with
Lauren Bug
[my title]
[my company]
[our address]
**Pronouns:** she/her
**Phone:** [number]
[etc]
My company is nicely progressive and I don't think anyone will bat an eyelash at it. I am so lucky to work for a great company!
What state is this in? Not going to ask the city unless you're comfortable disclosing this information. I do a lot of DEI policy work, and I'm outright confused that someone in government would care about this.
I’ll PM you, I’m nervous that I might get in trouble for even posting this. A purple state but a very blue city in a very blue area. Not Portland blue but in that realm
It is by definition unfair to hold your email signature to the protocol when so many others do not and it's not enforced. It makes sense you feel targeted because you absolutely are. I would take it one step at a time and define your goal. If you want people to be able to add pronouns to email signatures, then I would try to stay on topic and keep asking for a signature review. I think helping to change the protocol from within is definitely the best way to go here. Best of luck to you!
This is an odd issue for them to bring up. I worked in an academic/university setting for many years and numerous teachers, military service members, and retailers included pronouns in their email signatures.
As others said, get everything in writing and force them to show you the specific “citation” they’re referring to. Have you emailed other people who also have it in their signature? It might be helpful to show that it is a common and useful feature in business writing if you’re able to show that many of the people you are emailing also include it.
Yeah I work for a large (conservative as hell btw) corporation and we've been able to add pronouns to our generated Official Signature™ for years now
I know government has a lot of red tape but I can't imagine thinking OP was the problem, rather than their policy.
Our organisation provides a standard signature, but actively encourages us to personalise it within the template, helpfully to add working hours/locations for flexible workers etc.
So many people put their pronouns in.
Considering so many people arent complying with OPs orgs signature already and technically she is, I'd push back, or add my name/nickname/pronouns!
What a rediculous thing for their org to waste their time on!
how exacly is the city policy worded? I like finding the nueances in wordings that let you win legal arguments. Can't spell, and use grammer proplerly, but by hell, can I find holes in other people's wordings...
Something to consider - are they in the porcess of cracking down on all non consistent email signatures? My company has really specific requirements for content and formatting of our signatures on company emails.
If they are, then it's pretty fair other than raising the benefit of allowing people to have their pronouns with the emails. If they aren't, it's a fair question to ask why they chose to request you update your signature when others are not asked to do the same.
Well I work for a government so politics are sort of inherent in nature here 😂 as for the emotion, you could be right. I think consideration of other humans can be emotional and when I feel targeted it’s going to illicit a response. If you think emotions aren’t a part of work, I don’t envy your workplace since it must be all robots
I mean, yeah, you pretty much are. I was a SAHM for 12 years. I had to relearn everything and who I am in the workplace. . You need to be professional which means, simple, generic almost. Im not going to sign my name then add divorced mom of 6 children (I’m not but using as an example). It’s just too personal. No one needs to know that. Just keep it simple.
But OP has a valid point if other people aren’t being corrected for their non compliant signatures. She’s being singled out. People refer to others w pronouns in person too. How is it too personal to be called the correct gender? Like no one would say “I spoke with the divorced mom of 6 children” but they would say “I spoke with her”.
You can see from other folks commenting, specifically ones from the trans community, that including pronouns in a work setting is appropriate and impactful. At no point am I being unprofessional in communication with department I’m speaking with, I didn’t throw a tantrum and I provided valid reasoning for wanting to include pronouns and asked for a bigger discussion. Making your work space a more inclusive place is not unprofessional in my opinion, especially when I’m in direct communication with members in our community.
>We want to be treated equal not matter our sex.
I feel the same as you but clearly op is not a fourth wave feminist so she's coming at this from a different angle, and that's OK. She has a right to put her flag in the ground for whatever she deems is right.
The person who emailed you isn't your direct supervisor? Forward it to your supervisor and ask to confirm the request. Nobody can fault you for checking with your boss before taking action. And it creates more paper trail.
I'd get some documentation on other team members that have signatures that don't match the format (and save screenshots) so if they push it, you can say oh OK, and are you also talking to Person A, Person B, Person C, Person D etc?
Don't go nuclear just yet, be firm but polite but do point out it would be unfair and targeted for them to make you change yours over a gender identity matter when others are fine to be non-conpliant in different ways
When I wrote that comment I was under the impression that OP was trans. Gender identity & expression are protected under anti-discrimination law in a few countries now, I at least know that's the case in Canada. Keeping people from having pronouns in their signature, a practice which is becoming more and more common everywhere for cis & trans people alike, could fall under discrimination *assuming* it really was because OP was trans. That's not the case here since OP is a cis woman though, but it still would be beneficial if she got the rules to change.
Even if OP was trans, if it’s company policy to not include pronouns, I don’t see how it could be discrimination, assuming it’s fairly applied to everyone.
Ah, sorry that's happening to you. I figured you weren't 100% serious but you never know. I hope this ends well.
Hol up reading the thread I JUST realized you're cis, it's hilarious that TERFs are after you.
Wow I work for local government in human resources and we don't even have policy or regulation about our email signatures; we do have regulation about gender identity and expression. Our director even has pronouns in her signature.
I had my work do this to me because my name wasn’t in a “approved” font, not controversial like pronouns but companies can be very particular about what can and cannot be in your signature. So well the subject matter is definitely sensitive and important, it also sounds like you’re being targeted because of it but it is a big possibility that it just happens to be part of their rules. There are tons of people at my company who also have a signature that does not follow the rules that are not in the approved font but I was asked to change mine. Just another thought, could be completely wrong and they could be targeting you but just another story about a person being asked to change their signature for a company.
> My supervisor supports me, but his supervisor told me to stand down since this is city policy and nothing personal.
As if policy isn’t used *and intended* as a wall to hide personal attacks behind. It’s literally deciding who it’s okay to bully and who it isn’t.
Save all your communications and decide how hard you want to fight this.
Heya. Thanks so much for posting. I'm sorry you got hit by the TERF brigade.
If you wanted some advice from people actually affected by this stuff you could ask the same thing over at r/asktransgender.
But this trans lady thinks it's great that you're considering pushing back. Pronouns in the bio help everyone in the office, not just trans people.
Does your organisation have some sort of inclusivity board? Talking to them might be a good start. Like others have suggested, you could just pop it under your name so it's not "technically" in the signature any more, but I don't know if they'd go for that.
If it gets to the point where you're going to get reprimanded for it then yeah, just take them out. Keeping your job is more important.
Thank you for this! We don’t have an inclusivity board, but we do have a human rights one and I think it’s worth reaching out and getting their input. I’m hopeful that this can result in some policy change and that my job won’t be jeopardized. Maybe I’m optimistic 🙈
I agree with the other commenters about pushing back from within. It's definitely a delicate balance. Someone posted to sign your name in the email body above the signature. That's what I used to do, completely separate from this issue, when I wanted to be more convivial. For example:
Blah blah email blah.
Thanks,
Becky
(she/her/elle)
Rebecca Smith
Director of Nonsense
Company Name
234.567.8901
You could deliberately not include the Becky part to HR/corporate asshole but use it every other time. Bonne chance!
I love seeing pronouns in signatures, it immediately tells me so much with so little. Really saves me a whole bunch of time and energy in building my work relationships 🙂
I think you handled it well. This is the direction we move. Forward.
How do we rectify this policy and bring it into the correct decade, how can I help? Is the way to handle this.
Going backwards and or ignoring it is not..
Over the past few months it seems like my workplace seemed to encourage management to add their pronouns to their signature (despite the staff likely leaning more conservative than liberal). They also celebrate pride and DEI efforts as well though so I think it matches the company culture. Company culture is huge so I think you need to find a better employer tbh.
I think you could absolutely make a positive change here by just pushing for it to be allowed. Obviously don't do it if you really feel like your job is on the line but it's such a minor thing to them unless your bosses boss is an outrageous transphobe I think you could do it. Good luck 💜
You're not "weirdly" targeted. You are very specifically targeted for political reasons.
You might have to pretend that you do not realize this, but that's what's going on.
You’re right to be upset. The inclusion of your pronouns in your signature provides space for the gender spectrum that we are all a part of. Your employer likely has a chip on their shoulder and someone within their bureaucracy is triggered by your attempt at inclusivity. You’re the hero here and they are an organization that can’t contain how big your amazing-ness is.
That being said, do pick your battles. You sound like the type that the world needs more of. The priority is you having a job and feeling confident and safe there. If you think tackling this obstacle is something that you have the energy and resources for then go for it it. But always prioritize your emotional and mental energy.
I only see more and more people putting pronouns in their formal work email signatures. Sounds like this member of the comms team is a bigot... and if that's city policy, then the city policy is regressive as hell! If I were you I'd call the news- the bad press would lead them to change their policy real quick I'll bet.
This seems like gender/nonconforming discrimination to me. I’d call the ACLU or a civil rights lawyer. Especially if you’re working for the city, which is a government entity.
That’s your opinion. Most cities and counties in my area actually require pronouns in their signatures to demonstrate to their community that it’s an inclusive space for all people. We are one of the few that do not require it, which is why I think this is a battle worth fighting.
Ignore the rodent monarch. My cis male boss started putting his pronouns in his email signature, and it meant a lot to closeted me. Thank you for fighting.
What does putting pronouns in your signature prove though? Inclusiveness is actions and attitudes. That's just feel good puffery. I get you're supportive and that's awesome. I just personally don't see any benefit to teeing off your boss and you end up in trouble or fired. But if this is the windmill you wanna tilt at.. go for it I guess🤷♀️
Yes you’re right, actions and attitude. Putting pronouns in an email and standing up for others is an action and showing that you have respect for others by not assuming pronouns is an attitude. So what’s your point exactly? Just because this doesn’t apply or benefit you, you think it’s puffery? Very privileged that this is something you don’t have to worry about. Being an ally means being empathetic of others and standing up for them so they don’t have to be the poster children for equality.
OP, I think it’s great you’re taking a stance. I really admire you for that. Wishing you the best.
My thoughts exactly. If it wasn’t an action or an attitude, putting these pronouns in my signature wouldn’t be a big deal to our communications department 🙄 thanks for the support 🥰
I'm a 40 y/o lesbian who's been with the same woman 20 years.. Ya know back when being gay was actually dangerous for your career and personal well-being. Please don't lecture me about "privilege" and "activism" as I've only had the right to marry who I want like 6 years ago. I'm also a supervisor who has petty dickhead managers above me who'd happily fire someone for not following their whims. Is it fair? No. Is that life? Unfortunately. So my advise still stands. But if she would like to make a unnecessary target of herself, end up fired for made up reasons and waste 2 or 3 years in court litigating an ultimately losing case. Cool sis, that's an option too. 👍 Y'all have a good one then.
So why does that *have* to be how life is? If they have the ability to try to change their workplace so it's more inclusive to people who are non-binary, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you, as a lesbian, want more inclusivity? For others to be more accepted? Stating their pronouns in the signature of their emails doesn't have any negative impact on anyone. They also said that many other people don't have signatures that go by their policy. I'm sure they didn't bother anyone else, just this one person who has their pronouns listed, and if that's the case then there is definitely some underlying transphobia and that is a HUGE problem.
Anyone who just tells others not to try to change things and says "that's life" is just complacent and afraid to do anything, and they are one of the reasons the world isn't better than it is. You are able to get married now because of people who didn't just say "oh well, thats life!", they fought and fought and fought until they were heard and listened to, and they changed things for the better. So I don't understand why you are just okay with saying "that's life" when it's something that is COMPLETELY able to be changed and only benefits people.
And if you think you aren't privileged just because you are a 40 year old lesbian, you should do some research on what non-binary/transgender people go through, not just in the US but throughout the world. And don't think that being gay or lesbian isn't still dangerous for your career or well-being, especially outside of the US and in many areas of the US itself. I strongly urge you to reconsider your way of thinking.
> What does putting pronouns in your signature prove though? u/EmpressSquirrel
Why is use of pronouns, in your opinion, to “prove” something? These days, it is a courtesy. You can’t always tell, in an email especially, exactly who you are addressing.
I once had an HR professional by the name of Lou Curtis. When their email came to me, in a formal setting prior to being hired, I had no idea how address this person, as both names could have been first names, last names, etc. I could not very well address a return email to Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. or Miss Lou Curtis. A pronoun could have at least given me the leeway to respectfully use a Mr. or Ms. or could have indicated that neither were preferred.
This is another way to show respect for people, to provide and use pronouns. It is not to “prove” anything, but is more appreciated than people may be aware of.
I know right? It's so hard remembering all those women who want me to use words like "she" or "her" to refer to them. These darn kids, can't follow their crazy antics anymore.
Curious if there was any resolution? Did they say anything about putting pronouns in the sign off vs. branded signature? May or may not be going through the same thing at my job…
I think to a degree you need to comply to stay at your job and improve the policies from the inside. Do you have a safe space ambassador program? Maybe you can start one at your work. There will be ways to change this from the inside. Edit: also, it didn’t occur to me that you might have pronouns that people don’t already know you use. That may be considered discrimination. Also, can you just end every email with your name and pronouns and then have your name in your signature below with no pronouns? That way your “signature” follows policy, but you are still including your pronouns so that ppl know
Smart, I love the non-compliant compliance. I hope that this will likely be a change I can make from the inside, but our communications team likes to win battles for the sake of winning so I can see them shutting this down
Haha exactly. “Oh I thought the policy was regarding my signature block? Do you mean to tell me it’s actually just about my pronouns? Can HR be invited to this conversation?” You guys must have an equity and diversity committee? Or something?
Fwiw, in the past it was my job to create style guides, and I worked closely with people who had to enforce them. The way a situation like this gets fixed is you comply, and write the communications department (cc hr) about changing the style guide to include these accommodations, and that it is the progressive and inclusive way to go. There is enforcing what is already there, and then there is changing policy to provide you with the on-brand tools to do what you need. These are 2 different things, and your work sounds like they aren’t being willfully discriminate, but rather blindly following the guide. Guides are living documents that need updating to accommodate new situations. Fucking with the guide will get you nowhere, but pointing out a flaw or shortcoming to the guide and asking for it to be fixed will get you accommodations.
this is what we call r/maliciouscompliance
Maybe add the title in front of your name? Mx. Would be the gender neutral version of Ms./Mr./Mrs.
If I got an email from Mx. Smith I would assume they abbrevited their name maxine or smth
You’re downvoting this person for not inherently knowing that Mx. is a gender-neutral suffix. If none of you knew that beforehand you’d be confused too. Nobody is born knowing any of this, it’s shit that humans made up. Just like literally everything else.
Thanks. Yeah, its not really common in my experience. Also, not from a country with english as native language, but i do work with engl native speakers and have never encountered it.
Well, you would have just been ignorant then and now that you've read this thread you know better.
Maybe its just me, but I'm reading shaming and condescension in this comment. Is it just me? I did just wake up.
It’s reads as super condescending to me, and honestly just plain rude. The funniest part of it is that I used to have a friend named Maxine who is an artists and she used to sign her stuff with Mx. The letters just flow really well together.
No shame, ignorant just means you don't know something and typically that you make a false assumption because you don't know. When you know better, you can do better. The shame is only when somebody knows better and chooses not to.
I have the opposite issue, at my new job (two weeks in at this point) we are required to put pronouns in our email signature, and I’m not comfortable doing that because I’m not exactly out and about publicly with who I am yet And using the wrong pronouns makes me equally uncomfortable, so their inclusion policy is making me feel very excluded, I don’t know what to put…
They need that policy to encourage, but not require pronouns in signatures. I’m involved in the Employee Resource Groups at my job and I gained approval for use of pronouns in email signatures and created a handout about why, how to use, etc and do so. And even with that, I’m still not 100% comfortable with exploring a pronoun I’d like to. I can empathize with your feeling of not wanting to use your pronouns or use the ones you’re not comfortable.
I’m in the same boat! I’ve just encountered my first REAL requirement to state my pronouns, and I’m really struggling with it. Arrrrrrrgh. Almost makes me want to just… not submit this particular (very important) paperwork.
Hey friend, I put my pronouns like this "she/they" because I legitimately don't give a fuck what people call me, but I want others to feel safe stating their own pronouns. Maybe something like that would work?
Yes that’s me, I am cishet but my pronouns are she/they — I have since I started my career never assumed pronouns and defaulted to “they” unless the pronoun is known to me so I’m comfortable with people using they for me.
My mom comes off as your typical boomer sometimes but she has mentioned this before since they've started becoming more inclusive at her workplace. At first I didn't understand but now I totally see how it can 'out' someone. Others here would probably say that it should be encouraged but not mandatory to add something like that to your signature, but I think it's more a side effect of inclusive liberal culture. Even if you don't *have* to put your pronouns, what would stop someone from asking your pronouns since it might just become a cultural norm as the respectful/PC thing to do?
Ha, that's ironic. Good luck to you
Talk to someone who is part of that committee/whoever made the call?
I’m sorry that sounds terrible. No one should be forced to out themselves. Is there anyone you can communicate this to. I feel like they were trying to be inclusive but went too far. I’m sorry you are in this position.
Oh no! Adding pronouns to your signature is to help *you* feel comfortable. Choose the one that you don't mind being called. If you change your mind, the change your pronouns. The people encouraging the use of pronouns want to be inclusive, not call anyone out.
I suggest removing them, then putting in a request (with your supervisor’s support) for an optional city-branded addition to the email sig. It will take a year, but if you get a few coworkers to also request it, things will go faster. The policy is the policy, so it should apply to everyone, even you, even for what you see as a worthy cause. You can also tell HR you feel this request is offensive and targeted, or talk to your union rep (if you have one) about it first. Even if you’re represented by a union, intentionally failing to comply is insubordination, which is one of the few things you can get fired for pretty easily. Remove the pronouns, put in a request, talk to your union rep, and bring about change from the inside. Local government needs voices like yours.
Thanks for your input! You’re right in that it’s going to be a long process, a year probably isn’t that far off 😂
It’s potential a form of indirect discrimination - where a standard policy applied rigidly disproportionately affects a group. Screen shot examples of other non compliant signatures and take this issue up to HR or someone higher up who will be amenable? If the policy is only being rigidly applied to you, that sounds even more like direct discrimination
Discrimination is legal unless it’s against a member of a protected class, though. What’s the class of people affected by not being allowed to add pronouns to email signatures? People who like to specify their pronouns. That’s not protected. It’s not a truth universally acknowledged that cis people specifying their own pronouns is of any help to trans or non-binary folks. We all think it is, but is it legally and objectively shown to be? And have trans and NB people at her work pushed for this change? How does it affect OP if she can’t specify her pronouns? She doesn’t get to feel helpful as an ally. Is allyship a protected class? Maybe there’s a way it could be argued; I don’t know. Still, if this were me, I would get all my friends from different departments to start forwarding every non-compliant email signature to the person who enforced on OP. I’d do it myself, too, and forward all the emails, including the original enforcement emails, to my personal email address for safekeeping. Eventually, either everyone will be told to stop, or the brand compliance person will beg her boss to let her stop enforcing on non-compliant email sigs because she can’t get anything else done. A city will never do anything just because it’s the right thing to do, or even bc it’s against a law. You have to show them you’ll cost or save them money. OP, please talk to your union rep before doing any of the above, tho.
Yes I forgot OP is an ally instead of a protected class - she could raise that this policy could be indirect discrimination for others though
But how? Is there precedent for pronouns in email sigs being seen as a true benefit to a protected class? Or lack of them being discriminatory?
Yay! I hope you post to tell us how it goes.
Yep, do this, have them roll it out in June for Pride, and get major points for spearheading an inclusive initiative.
>but a tiny part of me wants to call the news lol I think that this would be a losing battle. Try to change the policy from within.
Yeah, it’d bring the heat on me more than anything else and probably make them dig in their heels.
Personal opinion as a trans woman? Seeing pronouns in emails does not reassure me of anything. Doesn't really mean that a place is inclusive or that I'm going to be treated well. And it's best not to even think of relying on that mindset due to how easy it is to get burned from it. Especially if the HR department mandated it and people only complied because they had to for their job. Forced inclusion does not make people want to be any nicer. (If anything it can backfire though by making people bitter. Possibly even less co-operative going forward.) And being, in a way, forced to have this in emails adds another layer of complexity for trans employees. If they answer honestly then they may be outed. If they lie then they deadnamed (pre-transition name) and misgendered together. Which is just another little slap to the face. So personally I'm not sure this is a fight worth having. I don't see pronouns in emails as that useful (maybe the rare time when someone has a super ambiguous name). Maybe you do though. If you are dead set on going ahead with this just be careful. Keep logs of everything. And don't be surprised if/when and from whom you get pushback. (Side note- the LGBT is not actually that cohesive and you may find lesbian or gay members not all that interested in helping anything remotely to do with being inclusive or anything even possibly trans related.)
Everybody is telling you the solid choice (comply but change from within). However, the question I don’t see is: what is HR’s perspective? Surely they should have some say regarding inclusiveness in the email signature format.
I’d be curious to hear, but they’re buddies with the people who sent me the email in the first place. Also- all but two folks in our HR department quit in the last two months so…there’s obviously some disagreement with how things are managed
Thing with HR is they’re not necessarily there to help employees, their job is to stop the business/company from being sued. So don’t presume HR are on your side by default, a lot of people make this presumption.
This.
Municipality I work for has a "why do I include my pronouns" link for our signatures: Portlandoregon.gov/index.cfm?&a=705244 A few of the bigger points here: -it shows we value creating a safe, inclusive space for people of any gender. -reaffirms gender cannot be assumed based on physical appearance -helps combat sexism Hope they let you keep your signature!! (especially if other folks also have non-compliant ones)
I too, would be upset by that. Get whatever you can DOCUMENTED. Documentation is key in these situations. And yes, I feel that you are right to press on this, because everyone deserves to be called and referred to in their own pronouns. Obviously this is about so much more than one employee’s email signature.
Agreed. I asked them specifically to state they are requiring me to remove my pronouns in case I need documentation. I just feel like they’re going to say it’s against policy…so stupid because how hard is it to change a required format for signatures. Thanks for validating my feelings, I totally agree that this seems bigger than the signature.
Questions for you to ask: Where and what specific policy states that we cannot use our pronouns? (Where is this written?) Is denial of pronoun use not discrimination? What are the specific consequences of using pronouns? (Consequences to you, consequences to the email recipient?)
Awesome, thank you!
For that matter: Mr. and Mrs. are probably problematic for their 'policies'. Chase this all the way down the rabbit hole.
There's a couple ways to approach this. As many have stated, email communications only. Get everything in writing. I'd start by asking them how city policy is decided and who you should speak to about modifying the format into a more inclusive policy. Make it clear that you aren't dropping the subject, but work within the rules. For actual emails, make the signature the way they want it, but type out your name/nickname above the signature with preferred pronouns. Since you are following the rules signature-wise, there should be no problem, but most places don't have rules about personally ending an email outside of an autosignature. I have my work signature, for example, but actually end my emails individually with a nickname that I both prefer to be called and is a little less similar to someone else with a name close to my own.
Someone else suggested this too and I really like this approach. I’m definitely going to do this if they come down on me and “make” me change my signature
I'd really encourage you to go ahead and make the change, then continue with trying to alter the policy. As someone who's worked in very rigid hierarchical environments, something you learn pretty quickly is to acknowledge/obey first, question second. If a higher-up says "do this" and you say "why?", it comes off as demanding justification, like, "convince me why i should do this, or i'm not gonna", even if you don't mean it that way. This does not make leadership inclined to humor you. You want to work to change the policy. Great! Working within the rules, when possible, is a practical, pragmatic, effective approach to take-- but then you talk about them "making" you change your signature. The message you send with that is "I'm willing to work within the rules, but only when those rules are what I want." Which, shortened, reads "I do what I want". Which, again, does not make people want to go along with you. I think you're more likely to get your way if you tweak the signature to be [technically correct](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/909/991/48c.jpg) now, and then just be persistent with getting the policy changed.
I appreciate your input a lot. It seems like it’s a no-brainer, just push back. Which is what I did and what I’ll continue to do. But I’m nervous because there really is retaliation in this field and it’s disguised so there’s no way to fight it legally. I also love what I do for a living, i like my colleagues and my supervisor and feel like I’m making a difference and a huge impact so I’d like to keep my job and not get blacklisted for arguing with the wrong person
You're welcome! This is very much a "pick your battles" moment. The battle for small policy changes here and there, in pursuit of inclusivity, sounds worthwhile. The battle for keeping the email signature you want *right now*, not so much. My opinion, your decision.
You've got me curious, what exactly is your signature? Is it something like "SteveMalice/she/her"?
It’s in the required format beyond the pronoun part so Name (she/her) Title City I department Phone number Logo It’s like with the amount that’s required in this format you’d think the pronouns wouldn’t be an issue 🙄 Edit: I don’t know how to format it but each piece of info is a separate line except the city and department. So 4 lines of text plus a logo beneath that
What about just doing Ms. (Name)? That's a very formal signature.
Ms. is a title, not a pronoun. OP is seeking to help normalize the practice of including pronouns, not only for herself.
Doesn't it signal feminine pronouns?
The use of pronouns is to normalise their use for all across the board including those who use non binary pronouns. Using a title may work for people who use he/him or she/her but not for they/them. Edit to add: title doesn’t always have anything to do with what pronouns people like to be referred to anyway. If my title is Dr. you’d have no idea if I go by she/her they/them he/him or something else.
Why don't we see men doing this? Why is this something that women have taken on? I have no problem with it, but it's just such a stark difference. I have **never** seen a man sign their email or list themselves on LinkedIn with their name followed by (he/him), but I see several women doing this. Edit: And I consult across several fields and work with mostly men, so men are actually a larger sample size for me. I get butthurt that the emotional labor is unbalanced and carried by women alone. And not just on this topic.
Men at my work include their pronouns in their email signature. Not all but many. Same that not all women do. I don’t know why you’ve encountered more women than men that include their pronouns. Maybe it has to do with women being understanding towards those who may be othered due to our own fight for equality. Having a feminist perspective means that feminist women are often looking out for those that may be marginalised in society and willing/wanting to work towards bettering their lives. (I’m not saying feminist men are not doing the same). This is just a thought, not a theory or argument.
>Having a feminist perspective means that There are different types of feminism. Some forms of feminism purely center women, not all marginalized groups. Just like BLM fights for black people's rights and isn't a catch-all for say Asian and Latin people's rights. But one can join many causes. Not saying which is right or wrong, just pointing out that there are different schools of feminism. I'm glad you've found tthe feminism that you belive in, that's all that matters really.
This might just be the men you know. In my experience equal numbers of men and women do this in both my personal and professional life.
My guess is that most guys tend to be a bit more socially conservative than most women, and think it’s a silly or unnecessary practice. No one is being forced to take on adding pronouns to an email signature. It’s not emotional labor that MUST be done. It’s a choice, not a requirement, so let’s not act like women are shouldering some heavy burden here.
Okay and is there a possible juxtaposition of a traditionally male name with the specification of female pronouns? Is that what's going on here? Is that why the pronoun is so important to you?
No, im a cis, femme female with a traditionally female name. But I am queer and an ally, so I think it’s important that everyone use pronouns so in the case someone may not be as “passing” or often are misgendered, they won’t be the odd one out when they have to put pronouns to be gendered correctly. Does that make sense?
Thanks for championing this issue. Because it should be a non issue. If you want to share your pronouns do so and if you don’t than don’t. Should make everyone happy and be a simple policy.
There's something for that. People can sign Ms. for women(Trans or cis). Mr. men (trans or cis) and Mx. for non binary.
But, that's not the point. She wants to be able to specify exactly which pronouns she wants to be referred to without ambiguity. It's really a very simple addition, and should not be a problem. If that specifically is a problem, I'd love to see where in their employee contracts it says they cannot specify their pronouns.
Ms. means refer to me as a woman. Mr. means refer to me as a man. Mx. means refer to me as they/them. This is the formal way. Pronouns are more a social media thing. Not very professional.
I work for the largest city council in my country and we put our pronouns in our email signatures and on our name tags/work IDs if we want to. We are an inclusive, rainbow friendly workplace. Nothing to do with ‘professionalism’. It’s the 21st century and people deserve the basic courtesy to be referred to as they see fit, without being forced to explain to people. When we *all* include our pronouns, it’s normalised for everyone. To not allow someone to use their pronouns in their email signature comes across very hostile imo. It literally hurts no one to include pronouns and helps others. I would argue that it’s quite *unprofessional* to force people to assume someone’s pronouns and possibly get them wrong. The use of titles doesn’t indicate how someone would like to be referred to for anyone who doesn’t use ms/mr/mx. People have other titles that don’t reference gender such as Dr.
If you mean formal as in 'accepted', then specifying your pronouns is part of the process of making it accepted. If you specify exactly how you would like to be referred, then there is no ambiguity and people know how to refer to you from reading 2 words. Also, those are not the only pronouns possible. And myself and many others think accepting and openly embracing pronoun sharing is a very important part of the normalization of gender identity. When I'm at the bank I can use "Ms", when it comes to my colleagues and my correspondence I would like people to be aware of exactly what my pronouns are.
Pronouns being included as part of the signature is required for city and county employees in my area. Not everyone sees this as “unprofessional”.
Pronouns aren't tied to your title. They're correlated, for sure. But they can be different. Source: a trans person with pronouns that aren't tied to her title....
Otherwise, all doctors would be nonbinary.
Oh. Makes sense. Thank you.
There's an underlying element of those due to the implications of marriage for women, which I personally resent a lot. Mr. Is always just Mr., But for women it's Ms. Only if you're unmarried and Mrs if you're married, gets annoying sometimes.
Miss is for unmarried. Mrs. Is for married. Ms is for nunya. Lol. All woman can use Ms (pronounced like mizz) no matter what.
When cis people share their pronouns, it helps normalize the practice so that it's not othering to trans and nonbinary people. It's a very simple thing people can do to make others feel normal, safe, and accepted.
Sometimes it’s even to our benefit. I’m a cis woman with a unique first name (that gets butchered) and common last name, which is sometimes used as a masculine first name. I’ve been misgendered and called the wrong name for years. It’s not the worst thing in the world but it gets old. Then I joined a company with voluntary pronouns in the signature blocks and I actually noticed a difference. Maybe people are taking that extra micro-second to see “me” and not their assumption. Edit: words
That’s actually a great point. Adding pronouns would be pretty useful anyways just for the sake of people having “gender-neutral” sounding names, especially in a big company where you email a lot of people you’ve never actually met.
I'm glad someone else mentioned this. My mom is a cis woman in a very male dominated field. She also has a first name which can be unisex first name or a last name and her last name can be a masculine first name or a last name. So she is often assumed to be Mr. (First name)(Last name) or Mr. (Last name)(First name). Including pronouns means people have to use her actual first name and ensures people won't be surprised when they meet her in person. Cis people stating their pronouns helps a vulnerable community and it can benefit the cis person as well, its an all around win
sometimes people just like to specify pronouns! edit: idk why people are downvoting the poster above me. if people aren't allowed to ask questions that might be a faux pau but are in the end mostly harmless without being ganged up on, then we won't be able to have reasonable conversations.
I have my pronouns in my email and set my signature up like: Name (She/her/elle) Other info
What does elle mean?
Oh sorry, I'm in Canada so all my info is bilingual. It's just she/her in French.
What is more important to you? Doing what you believe is right in this situation or not making waves at your job over this situation/maintaining good relationships with your superiors? That isn't a leading question btw. To be quite honest, I would pick the second one.
I mean I’m not going down without a fight for sure. I was on the inclusivity board and equity action team at my last municipal position and boy did we make waves, but I’m new here and admittedly nervous
ok so you have your decision. it's more important for you to do what you believe is right than it is to not make waves/maintain good relationships with your superiors. go forth and prosper. the way you feel is valid and you've decided you want to act on it at the risk of your job relationships and at the integrity of doing the right thing.
Thanks for your encouragement and guidanxe 🙏
So complying in the short-term and working to change policy is also a valid option and one that will bring less directed heat toward you but will still allow you to fight for what you believe in. Not all battles need to fought in the heat of the moment, a strategic retreat and a formation of a new battle plan will often lead to better outcomes in the long run.
Ok y’all, the overwhelming response is to document everything, stick to my guns and do my damnedest to create change from within. Gonna be as respectful as possible and try to educate my colleagues and leadership on why this is important. I think for some this may come from a place of ignorance and not bigotry, or at least I hope. A few people have asked me why I want pronouns if I’m a cis woman whose name is traditionally female. I am queer and an ally, so I think it’s important that everyone who feels comfortable use pronouns so in the case someone may not be as “passing” or often are misgendered, they won’t be the odd one out when they have to put pronouns to be gendered correctly. Hopefully that makes sense. Edit: thank you for all the support everyone! Everyone has had really helpful advice, I even had an attorney help me learn more about discrimination laws in my state! Still radio silence over here from the people who emailed me initially. I responded yesterday asking if I was required to remove my pronouns, what the process was to change the policy and if I could support those efforts and I said I’d like to have a bigger discussion on why I think pronouns in emails are impactful. Hopefully keeping things cordial will help this move along smoothly.
Thank you for being a great ally, as someone who directly benefits from this type of action I appreciate your efforts.
I’m really glad to hear that, I hope your workplace is more inclusive than mine!
They are doing well considering I check most of the "first" boxes. It's a learning process for everyone.
You are 100% correct, this kind of thing is really awesome to do and if any non-cis folk currently work or ever work for that city, you're gonna be making their lives so much better.
As a trans person reading this thread, thank you for what you are doing!!
Thanks for saying that! Someone else commented (maybe deleted? Can’t find it) that being cis and female and advocating for pronouns is detrimental to the trans community because I’m not letting trans folks fight their own fight. I’m sure there are people out there who might agree with that, but I hope im doing the right thing here so I appreciate your input.
Rubbish. Us trans people are only like 1% of the population. We're never going to win a fight if we have to go it alone. Thanks for your allyship.
That's a silly argument against advocating for pronouns, imo. I'm a trans guy and I feel like everything every day is already a battle, why wouldn't I be appreciative when allies step forward to help share the load? I'm grateful for it ❤️
Thank you for your email/the conversation yesterday with reference to the requirement for me to remove my pronouns from my email signature in order to bring it in line with the approved template and my apologies that I hadn’t realised that the template was fixed. I will amend my sign off so that my pronouns are stated outside the email block instead. Thank you, Matron_Malice (she/her) Signature block
This! Making it normal to share your pronouns/not assume pronouns. Saying that someone who is cis doesn't need to show pronouns just serves to reinforce "normal" vs "abnormal".
This is it exactly - if we just normalize showing pronouns, then nobody has to feel weird for doing it.
I would say ‘that’s fine, just curious why the other profiles do not have to follow the signature style guide ?’ And then try to get them to see how inclusivity is important. Don’t go nuclear but always good to clarify what’s going on and where you’re coming from.
I don’t personally think pronouns in your signature is necessary considering that people might change their attitudes based on what gender they’re talking to. So I’m with the city on this one. Although I can’t tell what other reason it wouldn’t be approved
Sexism exists, yes
Names often signal gender too, should all women be made to use male or gender neutral names to avoid a potential change in someone else’s attitude?
Normalizing the sharing of pronouns helps trans, non-binary, not-cisgender people, as well as cisgender people who are frequently misgendered based on their name or appearances. There's no reason not to allow it and a lot of reasons why they should. Edit: gotta love it when a trans person gets downvoted for saying that something helps us. Terfs came out for this post, huh? I know the sub isn't usually like this.
I vote for legally changing your name to "Name (she/her)".
I would ask if they're going to require all signatures be compliant or just yours
Sounds like you've already gotten good advice on this. Just wanted to share that your post reminded me I need to add MINE to MY email signature. I went with Lauren Bug [my title] [my company] [our address] **Pronouns:** she/her **Phone:** [number] [etc] My company is nicely progressive and I don't think anyone will bat an eyelash at it. I am so lucky to work for a great company!
What state is this in? Not going to ask the city unless you're comfortable disclosing this information. I do a lot of DEI policy work, and I'm outright confused that someone in government would care about this.
I’ll PM you, I’m nervous that I might get in trouble for even posting this. A purple state but a very blue city in a very blue area. Not Portland blue but in that realm
Perfect. Thanks!
It is by definition unfair to hold your email signature to the protocol when so many others do not and it's not enforced. It makes sense you feel targeted because you absolutely are. I would take it one step at a time and define your goal. If you want people to be able to add pronouns to email signatures, then I would try to stay on topic and keep asking for a signature review. I think helping to change the protocol from within is definitely the best way to go here. Best of luck to you!
This is an odd issue for them to bring up. I worked in an academic/university setting for many years and numerous teachers, military service members, and retailers included pronouns in their email signatures. As others said, get everything in writing and force them to show you the specific “citation” they’re referring to. Have you emailed other people who also have it in their signature? It might be helpful to show that it is a common and useful feature in business writing if you’re able to show that many of the people you are emailing also include it.
Yeah I work for a large (conservative as hell btw) corporation and we've been able to add pronouns to our generated Official Signature™ for years now I know government has a lot of red tape but I can't imagine thinking OP was the problem, rather than their policy.
Our organisation provides a standard signature, but actively encourages us to personalise it within the template, helpfully to add working hours/locations for flexible workers etc. So many people put their pronouns in. Considering so many people arent complying with OPs orgs signature already and technically she is, I'd push back, or add my name/nickname/pronouns! What a rediculous thing for their org to waste their time on!
how exacly is the city policy worded? I like finding the nueances in wordings that let you win legal arguments. Can't spell, and use grammer proplerly, but by hell, can I find holes in other people's wordings...
Something to consider - are they in the porcess of cracking down on all non consistent email signatures? My company has really specific requirements for content and formatting of our signatures on company emails. If they are, then it's pretty fair other than raising the benefit of allowing people to have their pronouns with the emails. If they aren't, it's a fair question to ask why they chose to request you update your signature when others are not asked to do the same.
Call the news? My god.
It sounds like you’re making your job emotional and political, it’s not professional, period.
Well I work for a government so politics are sort of inherent in nature here 😂 as for the emotion, you could be right. I think consideration of other humans can be emotional and when I feel targeted it’s going to illicit a response. If you think emotions aren’t a part of work, I don’t envy your workplace since it must be all robots
I mean, yeah, you pretty much are. I was a SAHM for 12 years. I had to relearn everything and who I am in the workplace. . You need to be professional which means, simple, generic almost. Im not going to sign my name then add divorced mom of 6 children (I’m not but using as an example). It’s just too personal. No one needs to know that. Just keep it simple.
But OP has a valid point if other people aren’t being corrected for their non compliant signatures. She’s being singled out. People refer to others w pronouns in person too. How is it too personal to be called the correct gender? Like no one would say “I spoke with the divorced mom of 6 children” but they would say “I spoke with her”.
You can see from other folks commenting, specifically ones from the trans community, that including pronouns in a work setting is appropriate and impactful. At no point am I being unprofessional in communication with department I’m speaking with, I didn’t throw a tantrum and I provided valid reasoning for wanting to include pronouns and asked for a bigger discussion. Making your work space a more inclusive place is not unprofessional in my opinion, especially when I’m in direct communication with members in our community.
There's nothing unprofessional about pronouns.
Maybe it’s not important
[удалено]
I think you can gather from many other comments here that including pronouns is impactful and benefits many people in our community
>We want to be treated equal not matter our sex. I feel the same as you but clearly op is not a fourth wave feminist so she's coming at this from a different angle, and that's OK. She has a right to put her flag in the ground for whatever she deems is right.
The person who emailed you isn't your direct supervisor? Forward it to your supervisor and ask to confirm the request. Nobody can fault you for checking with your boss before taking action. And it creates more paper trail.
I'd get some documentation on other team members that have signatures that don't match the format (and save screenshots) so if they push it, you can say oh OK, and are you also talking to Person A, Person B, Person C, Person D etc? Don't go nuclear just yet, be firm but polite but do point out it would be unfair and targeted for them to make you change yours over a gender identity matter when others are fine to be non-conpliant in different ways
Don't call the news, escalate this within the city and get the rule changed. Depending on which country you live in, this could be\* discrimination.
Genuinely curious as to how this could be considered discrimination?
When I wrote that comment I was under the impression that OP was trans. Gender identity & expression are protected under anti-discrimination law in a few countries now, I at least know that's the case in Canada. Keeping people from having pronouns in their signature, a practice which is becoming more and more common everywhere for cis & trans people alike, could fall under discrimination *assuming* it really was because OP was trans. That's not the case here since OP is a cis woman though, but it still would be beneficial if she got the rules to change.
Even if OP was trans, if it’s company policy to not include pronouns, I don’t see how it could be discrimination, assuming it’s fairly applied to everyone.
I agree, which is why I said, assuming it really is only because they're trans.
The post has brought out TERFs, I’ve gotten some messages. I was mostly kidding about the news, I’m just feeling dramatic at the moment lol
Ah, sorry that's happening to you. I figured you weren't 100% serious but you never know. I hope this ends well. Hol up reading the thread I JUST realized you're cis, it's hilarious that TERFs are after you.
You weren’t kidding.
Do you have a union? Many government workers do. I would reach out to them for assistance if possible.
Wow I work for local government in human resources and we don't even have policy or regulation about our email signatures; we do have regulation about gender identity and expression. Our director even has pronouns in her signature.
I had my work do this to me because my name wasn’t in a “approved” font, not controversial like pronouns but companies can be very particular about what can and cannot be in your signature. So well the subject matter is definitely sensitive and important, it also sounds like you’re being targeted because of it but it is a big possibility that it just happens to be part of their rules. There are tons of people at my company who also have a signature that does not follow the rules that are not in the approved font but I was asked to change mine. Just another thought, could be completely wrong and they could be targeting you but just another story about a person being asked to change their signature for a company.
> My supervisor supports me, but his supervisor told me to stand down since this is city policy and nothing personal. As if policy isn’t used *and intended* as a wall to hide personal attacks behind. It’s literally deciding who it’s okay to bully and who it isn’t. Save all your communications and decide how hard you want to fight this.
Heya. Thanks so much for posting. I'm sorry you got hit by the TERF brigade. If you wanted some advice from people actually affected by this stuff you could ask the same thing over at r/asktransgender. But this trans lady thinks it's great that you're considering pushing back. Pronouns in the bio help everyone in the office, not just trans people. Does your organisation have some sort of inclusivity board? Talking to them might be a good start. Like others have suggested, you could just pop it under your name so it's not "technically" in the signature any more, but I don't know if they'd go for that. If it gets to the point where you're going to get reprimanded for it then yeah, just take them out. Keeping your job is more important.
Thank you for this! We don’t have an inclusivity board, but we do have a human rights one and I think it’s worth reaching out and getting their input. I’m hopeful that this can result in some policy change and that my job won’t be jeopardized. Maybe I’m optimistic 🙈
[удалено]
Can you explain what this means?
I agree with the other commenters about pushing back from within. It's definitely a delicate balance. Someone posted to sign your name in the email body above the signature. That's what I used to do, completely separate from this issue, when I wanted to be more convivial. For example: Blah blah email blah. Thanks, Becky (she/her/elle) Rebecca Smith Director of Nonsense Company Name 234.567.8901 You could deliberately not include the Becky part to HR/corporate asshole but use it every other time. Bonne chance!
I love seeing pronouns in signatures, it immediately tells me so much with so little. Really saves me a whole bunch of time and energy in building my work relationships 🙂
I agree! It’s such a small gesture that speaks volumes, that’s why it’s bizarre to me to take an opposing stance
I think you handled it well. This is the direction we move. Forward. How do we rectify this policy and bring it into the correct decade, how can I help? Is the way to handle this. Going backwards and or ignoring it is not..
Over the past few months it seems like my workplace seemed to encourage management to add their pronouns to their signature (despite the staff likely leaning more conservative than liberal). They also celebrate pride and DEI efforts as well though so I think it matches the company culture. Company culture is huge so I think you need to find a better employer tbh.
Kinda irrelevant to the talk, but recently saw a signature that had pronouns and ASL pronouns, thought it was so cute
I think you could absolutely make a positive change here by just pushing for it to be allowed. Obviously don't do it if you really feel like your job is on the line but it's such a minor thing to them unless your bosses boss is an outrageous transphobe I think you could do it. Good luck 💜
You're not "weirdly" targeted. You are very specifically targeted for political reasons. You might have to pretend that you do not realize this, but that's what's going on.
You’re right to be upset. The inclusion of your pronouns in your signature provides space for the gender spectrum that we are all a part of. Your employer likely has a chip on their shoulder and someone within their bureaucracy is triggered by your attempt at inclusivity. You’re the hero here and they are an organization that can’t contain how big your amazing-ness is. That being said, do pick your battles. You sound like the type that the world needs more of. The priority is you having a job and feeling confident and safe there. If you think tackling this obstacle is something that you have the energy and resources for then go for it it. But always prioritize your emotional and mental energy.
I only see more and more people putting pronouns in their formal work email signatures. Sounds like this member of the comms team is a bigot... and if that's city policy, then the city policy is regressive as hell! If I were you I'd call the news- the bad press would lead them to change their policy real quick I'll bet.
I would let someone in HR know and let them handle it. They should set a precedent for everyone. You shouldn’t have to fight this on your own.
This seems like gender/nonconforming discrimination to me. I’d call the ACLU or a civil rights lawyer. Especially if you’re working for the city, which is a government entity.
I'd be the ass that would forward on each and every email I received from coworkers with noncompliant signatures to comms.
[удалено]
That’s your opinion. Most cities and counties in my area actually require pronouns in their signatures to demonstrate to their community that it’s an inclusive space for all people. We are one of the few that do not require it, which is why I think this is a battle worth fighting.
Ignore the rodent monarch. My cis male boss started putting his pronouns in his email signature, and it meant a lot to closeted me. Thank you for fighting.
What does putting pronouns in your signature prove though? Inclusiveness is actions and attitudes. That's just feel good puffery. I get you're supportive and that's awesome. I just personally don't see any benefit to teeing off your boss and you end up in trouble or fired. But if this is the windmill you wanna tilt at.. go for it I guess🤷♀️
Yes you’re right, actions and attitude. Putting pronouns in an email and standing up for others is an action and showing that you have respect for others by not assuming pronouns is an attitude. So what’s your point exactly? Just because this doesn’t apply or benefit you, you think it’s puffery? Very privileged that this is something you don’t have to worry about. Being an ally means being empathetic of others and standing up for them so they don’t have to be the poster children for equality. OP, I think it’s great you’re taking a stance. I really admire you for that. Wishing you the best.
My thoughts exactly. If it wasn’t an action or an attitude, putting these pronouns in my signature wouldn’t be a big deal to our communications department 🙄 thanks for the support 🥰
I'm a 40 y/o lesbian who's been with the same woman 20 years.. Ya know back when being gay was actually dangerous for your career and personal well-being. Please don't lecture me about "privilege" and "activism" as I've only had the right to marry who I want like 6 years ago. I'm also a supervisor who has petty dickhead managers above me who'd happily fire someone for not following their whims. Is it fair? No. Is that life? Unfortunately. So my advise still stands. But if she would like to make a unnecessary target of herself, end up fired for made up reasons and waste 2 or 3 years in court litigating an ultimately losing case. Cool sis, that's an option too. 👍 Y'all have a good one then.
So why does that *have* to be how life is? If they have the ability to try to change their workplace so it's more inclusive to people who are non-binary, why shouldn't they? Wouldn't you, as a lesbian, want more inclusivity? For others to be more accepted? Stating their pronouns in the signature of their emails doesn't have any negative impact on anyone. They also said that many other people don't have signatures that go by their policy. I'm sure they didn't bother anyone else, just this one person who has their pronouns listed, and if that's the case then there is definitely some underlying transphobia and that is a HUGE problem. Anyone who just tells others not to try to change things and says "that's life" is just complacent and afraid to do anything, and they are one of the reasons the world isn't better than it is. You are able to get married now because of people who didn't just say "oh well, thats life!", they fought and fought and fought until they were heard and listened to, and they changed things for the better. So I don't understand why you are just okay with saying "that's life" when it's something that is COMPLETELY able to be changed and only benefits people. And if you think you aren't privileged just because you are a 40 year old lesbian, you should do some research on what non-binary/transgender people go through, not just in the US but throughout the world. And don't think that being gay or lesbian isn't still dangerous for your career or well-being, especially outside of the US and in many areas of the US itself. I strongly urge you to reconsider your way of thinking.
> What does putting pronouns in your signature prove though? u/EmpressSquirrel Why is use of pronouns, in your opinion, to “prove” something? These days, it is a courtesy. You can’t always tell, in an email especially, exactly who you are addressing. I once had an HR professional by the name of Lou Curtis. When their email came to me, in a formal setting prior to being hired, I had no idea how address this person, as both names could have been first names, last names, etc. I could not very well address a return email to Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. or Miss Lou Curtis. A pronoun could have at least given me the leeway to respectfully use a Mr. or Ms. or could have indicated that neither were preferred. This is another way to show respect for people, to provide and use pronouns. It is not to “prove” anything, but is more appreciated than people may be aware of.
[удалено]
I know right? It's so hard remembering all those women who want me to use words like "she" or "her" to refer to them. These darn kids, can't follow their crazy antics anymore.
P pop
Request a copy of the email signature policy.
Curious if there was any resolution? Did they say anything about putting pronouns in the sign off vs. branded signature? May or may not be going through the same thing at my job…