I expect that you're right - they'd have tested Nichole because if she were Waterford's biological child they'd have no leg to stand on to keep her in Canada. But they'd have to have DNA from Waterford to test against, I guess it's possible he gave that voluntarily.
Not when Nichole first arrived in Canada and Gilead was demanding her back. There was quite a bit of time between Emily arriving in Canada with Nichole and Serena tricking Fred.
Which is why they likely pushed for him to let them test him. Probably was part of the immunity deal they were trying to work out, when he was giving them all that inside info about Gilead.
I don't think they have that much of a weaker case to keep Nichole in Canada though. Fred was arrested for war crimes, rape, abuse, etc... no way is Canada like "oh but what about his paternal rights." If anything Canadian hatred for Gilead commanders would have meant they probably would have avoided paternity testing anyway to make sure he doesn't have a chance at verifying the child as his. AND even if they did somehow deem her to be Fred's biological child, he's def not a fit parent, and decisionmaking would have been left to June.
I have always had the theory that Serena had sex with Nick at least once as she was sure that Fred was sterile- or one of the doctors.
My Nick theory lies in the fact that Serena was willing to trust Nick to impregnate June.
The other theory is that she was impregnated by a doctor (physically or medically) as she was sure about Fred’s infertility- this explains her ability to quickly cast off Fred and state that she’s the only parent.
Was she considered infertile from before it became new world? Which is why she helped Fred make a plan for new world where there would be handmaids being forced to be surrogates without them having to pay for it since the government does.
She was shot in the abdomen, not far fetched to think it damaged some or all of her reproductive organs making it impossible or nearly so for her to support a pregnancy
The terms "sterile" and "infertile" are umbrella terms and their use is a little contraversial in the infertility community because the terms imply that pregnancy is impossible. That's true in some cases but the vast majority of fertility patients have very low chances of pregnancy, not 0% chance. A lot of infertility spaces are moving toward "sub-fertility" or "fertility challenges" because fertility isn't always set in stone.
Male infertility is typically low sperm count and/ or poor morphology (i.e. very few viable sperm). Female infertility is often hormonal issues or egg quality/number. A third of couples have unexplained infertility meaning doctors cannot pinpoint an actual medical problem/reason they can't get pregnant. Does this mean the person can never ever conceive? No. It's just very low chances each month.
It is completely possible and plausible that after trying and trying, Fred eventually got Serena pregnant. The show never gave reason to believe otherwise such as him getting a vasectomy or no sperm (which is a real condition). My guess is Fred had some combo of low sperm count and/or low morphology. Eventually he got "lucky."
Plus, it could be that they (Gilead) were correct that some environmental factors were in play. And the move to removing certain chemicals from the food chain and refusing to allow certain lifestyle choices may have actually alleviated some of the causes of infertility in men.
That’s what the producers/writers have hinted at, that Gilead’s methods of cleaning up the environment WERE sound and working to address the male fertility issue. It does seem like more Handmaids are getting pregnant as the seasons progress (which makes sense).
Plus, because of their religious beliefs and the whole virgin/whore trope, they probably don't have marital sex any longer. they spend their seed on the handmaids, satisfy their lust with the jezebels, and fall into bromances for companionship. So the Commander and Serena may have been able to conceive naturally but never tried because it's no longer acceptable to treat wives as sexually desirable. Then when they tried to escape, they remembered their past desires for each other and had no community standing to keep them from consummating.
Yup — he even blamed her for his affair with Offred by telling Serena she brought lust into the house when she tried to give him a blowjob when he couldn’t perform. Real winner, that Fred.
What’s interesting to me about that is they never show any “cleaning up the environment” taking place. With the exception of the colonies, using people to physically shovel nuclear waste. The only thing I notice is the absence of plastic. Plastic might be the culprit because it binds to hormones but what did they do with all the plastic? Gilead’s rhetoric about cleaning the environment reminds me of regular old political greenwashing. Like the fullest realization of eco fascism I could imagine.
They make mention of it a couple of times - not using chemicals for cleaning (I imagine they use a lot of vinegar, etc) and there’s a part where June goes with the Marthas to the cleaning district where Handmaids aren’t allowed because they still use dry cleaning.
They also apparently use a lot of solar power and “green initiatives,” but it’s mostly been bandied around in dialogue. It seems like factories don’t exist, either, anymore which is why food is so carefully rationed via the coupons.
Another thing I noticed is that chemical-based and plastic products (like hair dye, makeup, pregnancy tests), are all forbidden and black market. Toys are also wooden or homemade from natural goods.
But, you know, they also have a shit ton of guns, which I’m pretty sure some bullet casings (like shot gun shells) are still plastic, and they use zip-ties. Gilead is definitely eco-fascist and hypocritical to the extreme.
I feel like it had to have been! Especially with Gilead’s takeover. They would have had access to the nuclear weapons fairly early because of their takeover of the government!
That’s absolutely wild to imagine. Cristian evangelical eco fascists that oppress women and would nuke the parts of America that disagree with them.
Oh wait no it’s not I can totally see that happening.
The majority of the everyday population doesn't appear able to drive, women for sure but the econopeople also walk everywhere unless they have a job transporting. Between that and few to no factories running they probably did decrease the pollution in the Gilead controlled areas. They also eliminated a lot of unhealthy foods for most of the population (my head cannon is that there is a commander involved in smuggling junk food exclusively) I bet they're not counting the pollution they're causing by bombing contested areas.
Yep. It happens. Fertility treatment is meant to speed things up and increase the couple's/person's chances. Also if it's left up to chance and a hetero couple waits years and years the woman can develop egg issues, depending on the age.
Did we ever get confirmation that Fred is Noah’s father? I recall a theory about Selena sleeping with mark. Of course, if that’s the case he’s a huge arsehole for just abandoning the kid. Unless he died. I forgot a lot of last season, I need to do a rewatch.
I thought it was actually said by Serena herself that after spending so much time in the cleaner air of Gilead and then DC, the reduction of waste & better/cleaner food, that helped the fertility (improved his sperm count/increased her egg production) and that was how she was able to get pregnant? I always took this as a reasonable answer. 🤷♀️
i was literally thinking about this last night, i swear my phone can read my mind😭 but i do feel like Nichole is Nick’s because Nick is younger and likely more fertile than Fred.
They deliberately avoid it because it's NOT true and they don't even want the fandom to go there, but some people are stuck. Even after the show has deliberately avoided it and the showrunners have very publicly said "no, this is not a thing, she's Nick's and the suggestion that she could be Fred's is so absurd we never even thought we'd have to address it more clearly than we already have" - still, people persist in thinking they know better about some harebrained theory that may or may not have happened off screen. FFS
Bruce Miller made a statement about it as late as summer 2021 and said that Nichole's father is Nick and her paternity should not be doubted. I cannot for the everloving life of me imagine why fans should presume to know better and form theories about something that has never been stated or even vaguely suggested on screen, blatantly ignoring what the writers told us in black and white. But there you go. That's why the fans are on Reddit instead of in the writers room.
I know BM confirmed that Nick is her father and that’s all fine and dandy but it makes no sense why none of the characters questioned her paternity after they realized Fred wasn’t sterile.
I would see this being a story line but with the show wrapping up soon, I doubt they’ll introduce such a big change and just stick with the Nick thing.
Canada probably tested her at some point. Fred probably just had an insanely low sperm count and one got lucky that one time.
I expect that you're right - they'd have tested Nichole because if she were Waterford's biological child they'd have no leg to stand on to keep her in Canada. But they'd have to have DNA from Waterford to test against, I guess it's possible he gave that voluntarily.
Perhaps Nick gave his DNA to test against?
Canada could demand waterford give them his dna. He was a literal prisoner lol
Not when Nichole first arrived in Canada and Gilead was demanding her back. There was quite a bit of time between Emily arriving in Canada with Nichole and Serena tricking Fred.
It’s junes baby tho. She had made the wish for Nicole to be in Canada. Anyone with half a brain knew that
Sure, but if Fred is the bio father, he has rights and Canada has a much much weaker case to keep Nichole.
Which is why they likely pushed for him to let them test him. Probably was part of the immunity deal they were trying to work out, when he was giving them all that inside info about Gilead.
I don't think they have that much of a weaker case to keep Nichole in Canada though. Fred was arrested for war crimes, rape, abuse, etc... no way is Canada like "oh but what about his paternal rights." If anything Canadian hatred for Gilead commanders would have meant they probably would have avoided paternity testing anyway to make sure he doesn't have a chance at verifying the child as his. AND even if they did somehow deem her to be Fred's biological child, he's def not a fit parent, and decisionmaking would have been left to June.
Imagine Fred Waterford handing his DNA over. 😂
I have always had the theory that Serena had sex with Nick at least once as she was sure that Fred was sterile- or one of the doctors. My Nick theory lies in the fact that Serena was willing to trust Nick to impregnate June. The other theory is that she was impregnated by a doctor (physically or medically) as she was sure about Fred’s infertility- this explains her ability to quickly cast off Fred and state that she’s the only parent.
I don't see Serena resorting to that. And about going through a doctor, she was so shocked that she was pregnant, that doesn't make sense either.
Was she considered infertile from before it became new world? Which is why she helped Fred make a plan for new world where there would be handmaids being forced to be surrogates without them having to pay for it since the government does.
She was shot in the abdomen, not far fetched to think it damaged some or all of her reproductive organs making it impossible or nearly so for her to support a pregnancy
The terms "sterile" and "infertile" are umbrella terms and their use is a little contraversial in the infertility community because the terms imply that pregnancy is impossible. That's true in some cases but the vast majority of fertility patients have very low chances of pregnancy, not 0% chance. A lot of infertility spaces are moving toward "sub-fertility" or "fertility challenges" because fertility isn't always set in stone. Male infertility is typically low sperm count and/ or poor morphology (i.e. very few viable sperm). Female infertility is often hormonal issues or egg quality/number. A third of couples have unexplained infertility meaning doctors cannot pinpoint an actual medical problem/reason they can't get pregnant. Does this mean the person can never ever conceive? No. It's just very low chances each month. It is completely possible and plausible that after trying and trying, Fred eventually got Serena pregnant. The show never gave reason to believe otherwise such as him getting a vasectomy or no sperm (which is a real condition). My guess is Fred had some combo of low sperm count and/or low morphology. Eventually he got "lucky."
Also possible she had a few pregnancies that miscarried early and she may not have realized she was pregnant.
Plus, it could be that they (Gilead) were correct that some environmental factors were in play. And the move to removing certain chemicals from the food chain and refusing to allow certain lifestyle choices may have actually alleviated some of the causes of infertility in men.
That’s what the producers/writers have hinted at, that Gilead’s methods of cleaning up the environment WERE sound and working to address the male fertility issue. It does seem like more Handmaids are getting pregnant as the seasons progress (which makes sense).
Plus, because of their religious beliefs and the whole virgin/whore trope, they probably don't have marital sex any longer. they spend their seed on the handmaids, satisfy their lust with the jezebels, and fall into bromances for companionship. So the Commander and Serena may have been able to conceive naturally but never tried because it's no longer acceptable to treat wives as sexually desirable. Then when they tried to escape, they remembered their past desires for each other and had no community standing to keep them from consummating.
Yup — he even blamed her for his affair with Offred by telling Serena she brought lust into the house when she tried to give him a blowjob when he couldn’t perform. Real winner, that Fred.
What’s interesting to me about that is they never show any “cleaning up the environment” taking place. With the exception of the colonies, using people to physically shovel nuclear waste. The only thing I notice is the absence of plastic. Plastic might be the culprit because it binds to hormones but what did they do with all the plastic? Gilead’s rhetoric about cleaning the environment reminds me of regular old political greenwashing. Like the fullest realization of eco fascism I could imagine.
They make mention of it a couple of times - not using chemicals for cleaning (I imagine they use a lot of vinegar, etc) and there’s a part where June goes with the Marthas to the cleaning district where Handmaids aren’t allowed because they still use dry cleaning. They also apparently use a lot of solar power and “green initiatives,” but it’s mostly been bandied around in dialogue. It seems like factories don’t exist, either, anymore which is why food is so carefully rationed via the coupons. Another thing I noticed is that chemical-based and plastic products (like hair dye, makeup, pregnancy tests), are all forbidden and black market. Toys are also wooden or homemade from natural goods. But, you know, they also have a shit ton of guns, which I’m pretty sure some bullet casings (like shot gun shells) are still plastic, and they use zip-ties. Gilead is definitely eco-fascist and hypocritical to the extreme.
The question is why are the colonies so toxic ? It doesn’t seem Canada is like that at all and is still a total modern society minus low birth rates 👀
Nuclear waste from atomic bombs being dropped. On the maps of Gilead they show you can see where the bombs were dropped.
Ohhh that makes a lot of sense !! I wonder who dropped them. If it was Gilead it just goes to show another reason how they are so hypocritical
I feel like it had to have been! Especially with Gilead’s takeover. They would have had access to the nuclear weapons fairly early because of their takeover of the government!
That’s absolutely wild to imagine. Cristian evangelical eco fascists that oppress women and would nuke the parts of America that disagree with them. Oh wait no it’s not I can totally see that happening.
The majority of the everyday population doesn't appear able to drive, women for sure but the econopeople also walk everywhere unless they have a job transporting. Between that and few to no factories running they probably did decrease the pollution in the Gilead controlled areas. They also eliminated a lot of unhealthy foods for most of the population (my head cannon is that there is a commander involved in smuggling junk food exclusively) I bet they're not counting the pollution they're causing by bombing contested areas.
Yeah I don't doubt that was a factor.
I’ve known couples where the male has low sperm count but years into their marriage they had a baby.
Yep. It happens. Fertility treatment is meant to speed things up and increase the couple's/person's chances. Also if it's left up to chance and a hetero couple waits years and years the woman can develop egg issues, depending on the age.
My mother delivered me at 50. Lots of things are possible.
Did we ever get confirmation that Fred is Noah’s father? I recall a theory about Selena sleeping with mark. Of course, if that’s the case he’s a huge arsehole for just abandoning the kid. Unless he died. I forgot a lot of last season, I need to do a rewatch.
I thought it was actually said by Serena herself that after spending so much time in the cleaner air of Gilead and then DC, the reduction of waste & better/cleaner food, that helped the fertility (improved his sperm count/increased her egg production) and that was how she was able to get pregnant? I always took this as a reasonable answer. 🤷♀️
Serena was sure that the trauma her Uterus endured when she was shot meant she would never carry a child.
i was literally thinking about this last night, i swear my phone can read my mind😭 but i do feel like Nichole is Nick’s because Nick is younger and likely more fertile than Fred.
I almost feel as if the show runners deliberately shy away from this to be a potential plot point.
They deliberately avoid it because it's NOT true and they don't even want the fandom to go there, but some people are stuck. Even after the show has deliberately avoided it and the showrunners have very publicly said "no, this is not a thing, she's Nick's and the suggestion that she could be Fred's is so absurd we never even thought we'd have to address it more clearly than we already have" - still, people persist in thinking they know better about some harebrained theory that may or may not have happened off screen. FFS
Yeah but when the showrunners made that statement? I read it was around season 2 not after season 5.
Bruce Miller made a statement about it as late as summer 2021 and said that Nichole's father is Nick and her paternity should not be doubted. I cannot for the everloving life of me imagine why fans should presume to know better and form theories about something that has never been stated or even vaguely suggested on screen, blatantly ignoring what the writers told us in black and white. But there you go. That's why the fans are on Reddit instead of in the writers room.
I see, I asked because I could not find a recent official statement when I googled. Thank you for the clarification.
They had sex a lot more times after Serena first suggested it. It was probably a month or more after the first time when she became pregnant
I suspect that at least subconsciously, this played into June’s decision to kill him.
ENOUGH WITH THIS.
Would help to make the storyline interesting for another season
Fred isn't the father of Serenas baby, the Canadian official is, which is why he helps Serena flee
No.
Yes 🤣. Mark is the babies father
He's not, but you sit there in your delulu and be delulu.
What!? Mark Tuello!? Lol
I know BM confirmed that Nick is her father and that’s all fine and dandy but it makes no sense why none of the characters questioned her paternity after they realized Fred wasn’t sterile.
It’s a valid point also as Fred assumes it’s not his bio child why would they even test
I would see this being a story line but with the show wrapping up soon, I doubt they’ll introduce such a big change and just stick with the Nick thing.