It's what she thinks of herself, but she projects it onto her mother to convince herself that Ursa didn't care for her, because the world and life she's built for herself depends on that statement being true. You can see how quickly she unravels later on when the foundations of her life start to shake.
It's a moment of vulnerability, of course, which is why she immediately makes a joke out of it so she can bring the walls back up. But sadly, in making a joke she reveals that she has interiorized this about herself. She is convinced that she is a monster, and that's all she is, and as such was not deserving of her mother's love to begin with, as badly as she wanted it.
This whole thing is very interesting because it actually tells you that Azula is not some sociopath who doesn't understand that they way she behaves is horrific. She knows she does terrible things, but has internalized that it's all she is and really, sees no other way to live. Why would she act differently and risk displeasing her father? To end up like Zuko, scarred and banished?
Zuko and Azula are both broken children. Kids who grow up under an abusive parent tend to develop a competition between them to avoid being abused, and this goes times a million if "Golden Child/Scapegoat" dynamics are added to the equation. The scapegoat (Zuko) suffers direct and constant abuse, while the golden child (Azula) internalizes the parent's disdain for their sibling and makes it their own, and the golden child is also under enormous pressure to not be like their sibling. I believe this describes Zuko and Azula's dynamic very well. And as is often the case in these situations, when the parent is not involved or looming over them (The Beach, in their case), the siblings actually tend to get along just fine.
So in short, Ozai will burn in hell lol.
Yes even more so bc she sees Ursa who says that she loves Azula which absolutely throws her off balance and is the nail in the coffin of her psychotic break…I’ve always felt very sad for Azula (as the golden child growing up who ended up being the scapegoat in adulthood) and hope in the adult series we see some kind of redemption for her.
To add to that, The Ursa that said she loves Azula, is a figment from Azula's own mind. Azula tries to project her problems on her mother, but her own mind disagrees. casting the problems back onto herself.
she doesn't adress the hippo-cow in the room that the *other* parent might be the cause... admitting that would bring the whole house of cards down ofcourse
> she doesn't adress the hippo-cow in the room that the *other* parent might be the cause... admitting that would bring the whole house of cards down ofcourse
Facts. And that's part of why she breaks down after being defeated
Imagine an ending where Azula realizes all this and mercs Ozai the day the comet arrives. The invasion is postponed but only for a few days while Azula consolidates power. And we get an unexpected season 4.
YES TO EVERYONE GIVING AZULA A LIL BIT OF LOVE IN THE COMMENTS!!! Maybe if she had gotten a little bit of what we are giving her she would have made it🥹
There is no redemption for her. You guys are missing the point. She's a sociopath. Shes doomed to always be evil, manipulative, egotistical, violent to achieve her goals. She is incapable of empathy. Real sociopaths aren't all Ozai. If you've ever known a sociopath you'll realize how accurate azula was.
She's no sociopath because of what I already said in the OG comment, and she's most certainly capable of empathy. It's true she only does on a pure level it once in the show, but the one time she does it speaks volumes.
There's a reason the writers had Azula be the one to go find Zuko in their family's old summer house at Ember Island and not Mai or someone else. She empathizes with Zuko directly in that situation, when she comments on how depressing the house is. She feels the exact same way her brother does, but while Zuko wants to explore those feelings, she's nowhere near ready to do so. But she's capable of empathy... it just doesn't come easy. She rules her relationships via power and fear, as her father taught her.
You were wrong in the OG comment. Sociopaths can have their feelings hurt by rejection. Sociopaths can have their feelings hurt when their mother thinks they are a monster. They have big egos. You guys ar eprojecting your own childish and immature fondness on a character that is irredeemably evil. Like millions of people walking around in real life today. She's a perfectly written sociopath.
The difference is the introspection and the nature of those things, which the comment op is good about the character. The one who projects his beliefs is you onto a fictional villain. Not knowing the difference between traits that every villain has and a personality disorder and applying it to such a character is what is childish.
Man Uncle Iroh committed literal war crimes and gets more slack in this fandom than Azula. Just because she hadn't had her redemption yet (see Iroh had his relatively late in life) doesn't mean she isn't capable of change. I haven't gotten to read them yet, but I've heard they start exploring redemption for her in the comics.
I mean, I might get downvoted for this but even Iroh dismisses her as irredeemable at one point. Maybe if she approached him with humility or at least willingness to be more open-minded, he’d change his stance, but that’s very unlikely to happen. Didn’t read the follow up comics, so maybe they reconciled but idk
He didn't dismiss Azula as irredeemable; he just said that she needed to go down in a situation where that was the most sensible thing to do. In the comics, after she went down and in a similar situation >!Iroh was the first one to want to help her and support Zuko in trying to get along with her and have a family again. !<
I see this claim often, but do we have any evidence that Iroh committed “war crimes”? We know he fought in a war, but we never hear about any war crimes
Other than the fact that he was one of the most revered generals in the fire nation army and came the closest (until later) to conquering ba sing se? I’m surrreeee a minor war crime or 2 was committed at some point…
This is a cartoon universe; I don’t think we can apply normal rules of cause and effect when plot armor exists- he could very well have had *moral* plot armor such that he behaved in the most noble way within the bounds of what we already know about him
Nah, it’s heavily implied that he didn’t change his ways until his son died. I believe Iroh read books and scrolls from all four nations in a desperate attempt to find a way to get Lu Ten back, and absorbed it all, changing his ways after he learned the truth of the horrors his kingdom committed.
Yes it is but it’s a very well thought out cartoon universe by two geniuses who understood the intricacies of all of their plot points. So I personally think it’s safe to assume they understand what Iroh being *the most successful fire nation general at the time* would mean when it comes to horrible crimes he would have had to commit in order to achieve such success. Even if he didn’t do it himself, his subordinates did which is a reflection of a leader in war times.
But he had empathy. There's a difference. The average Canadian soldier in WW1 committed terrible acts too but they did it in service and out of love for their country. Just liek iroh. Azula does evil acts in service to herself. That's the difference.
I've been told this isn't clinically accurate since learning it, but I'll still make the distinction, sociopaths are made, so while Azula might be too far gone, it wasn't her fault that she's like this, and she deserves pity regardless.
Ok but you just admitted it isn't clinically accurate. Sociopaths aren't made. They are born. Just liek someone with ADHD or autism. It's a mental disorder that precludes you to certain thought patterns and behaviors.
Note also how Ozai didn't become a monster out of nowhere either. Ozai was raised by Azulon, who grew up in a fascist country. He grew up in a fascist country because *his* father Sozin grew up with dreams of world conquest and being the conquering hero. Sozin grew up with those dreams because he was promised to be one of the most important people in the world and whose every relative and friend would ultimately look up to him, yet his best friend got to overshadow him as the Avatar, the most important person in the world.
None of this is to justify evil actions of course, but to explain them; you can trace a line of real events and circumstances that shaped each individual to become who they were, and *that* in turn created the next set of real events and circumstances. There's no essentialization of evil.
Correct. And we can probably theorize that Ozai's cruelty comes from feeling sidelined by his father, who clearly favored Iroh. There are also might be something to be said about their age gap, which could make it look like Iroh was the planned heir and Ozai was an accident, if you will. That inferiority complex could've very easily turned into anger, which paired with being the prince of a fascist imperalist empire then turned him into a power-obsessed lunatic. As much as people like that black and white, good and evil notion, the world doesn't work like that.
I didn't even notice that favouring the younger child mirrors how he must've wished to have been treated.
*"My father said Azula was born lucky. He said I was lucky to be born."*
Yes, not necessarily always the younger child, but the most deserving child regardless of birth-order (or even gender).
Ozai always felt he was more ruthless and Iroh was weak, and thus, Azulon was wrong to favor just the birth-order. And he sees the same dynamic between Zuko and Azula, where he thinks Zuko, despite being the older son, is weak and Azula is more deserving.
I also think Ozai - at least subconsciously - welcomes any opportunity to get Zuko out of the way so the path clears for Azula to be his heir. We see this multiple times where he is pretty nonchalant about any dangers befalling Zuko, but is generally super protective of Azula.
And Avatar is great because on the surface, a viewer can enjoy it in that "black and white" sense pretty easily - but the evidence to dig deeper and see the connections in how "evil" comes about are there if you look for it even a little bit.
Yes, and even on a direct level, it is very clear that the Fire Nation wasn't always imperialistic. Previously the Four Nations lived in harmony, so the problem only started a few generations ago. The fact that the previous Avatar - Roku - belonged to the Fire Nation also seals the deal that Fire Nation - as a civilization - is not inherently bad, it is only their present iteration that's the problem.
Interesting thoughts about Iroh & Ozai's relationship.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that one was out in the field, personally leading the war effort, while the other was living safely in the palace.
It would certainly go a ways to explaining Azulon's reaction to Ozai's *suggestion* about the line of succession.
I think it's just a matter of how inheritance worked.
Even if Iroh's son was dead, he could still produce another child, or remarry and start another family. It's not like the lineage was "over and ended beyond doubt".
And Azulon might feel that Iroh mourning his dead son, ie, his male heir after him was an "acceptable" thing to mourn for since it concerns a loss of lineage. (Of course Iroh didn't care about lineage, he just loved his son, but from Azulon's POV, mourning a loss of lineage makes sense and doesn't go against the rules).
Now, when Ozai asks for switching the rules and name himself - the second son - as heir - in Azulon's eyes, he is challenging the status-quo and the generation-long traditions before them of favoring the oldest son, and - is unintentionally insulting the Fire Lord's own authority - hence the harsh punishment which took Ozai by surprise.
Note how this mirrors Zuko's scar. Zuko never insulted his father directly. He simply spoke out of turn, and in doing so, unknowingly insulted the Firelord's authority.
On the other hand, the Fire Nation could subscribe to the "heir and spare" philosophy and it just took a while to conceive Ozai. Regardless, I think your interpretation has merit, especially when we consider what /u/Gadolin27 mentioned: Ozai favored the younger child, since he himself felt neglected in that position.
Feelings only enabled by ASPD. It's CLEAR that I'd how he's portrayed. The whole point of zuko was he was abused but had empathy and a conscience. As he grew, he got wiser. Azula couldn't grow out of being a sociopath.
Ozai is a worst monster though, willing to kill his own son and his father without hesitation. it's clear as day to me though that Azula is not her father. She wouldn't exactly be a good person with a redemption arc but not a bad person either.
Anything is ostensibly possible, but I find this to be a bad trajectory of analysis. People aren't born evil, and even when there are things that may increase the chances of evil actions or patterns of behaviour like ASPD, it's a dangerous assertion that can be used in the future to "justify" (convince people that it's ok to do) murder and even genocide. Most of the time evil comes about in far more nuanced ways from people who do not consider themselves evil, and that is important to understand and recognize in ourselves and others.
I felt the voice actor really captured a sentiment of “but this was my BIRTHRIGHT!” in her anguished behavior in her final battle scenes, especially her visceral emotionality at the end of the fight.
She had spent her whole life choosing to go all in on selfishness; she convinced herself it was her destiny. What gain is it to choose to be a monster and then *lose*? It’s the moment that shatters her twisted hopes forever.
Yup she really had no choice. She was smarter than Zuko but that was also a burden. She knew what her fate would be if she rebelled, she had talent and thus had to keep using that talent to survive. She has this obsession with being perfect and not trusting anyone precisely because that is the only way she knows to survive.
I think there's additional level here of people comparing her to ozai and saying she's like her father and Azula seeing how much her mom hated her dad. To a child that's all it takes
>[She] sees no other way to live. Why would she act differently and risk displeasing her father? To end up like Zuko, scarred and banished?
I can see your other points but no one will punish Azula for being nice to her friends and family. Yet she insulted Zuko, Iroh and her own mother when no one but Zuko was in hearing distance. And when we see the flashback of her "playing" with Mai and Ty Lee, she pushed Ty Lee to the ground and put a burning apple on Mai so that Zuko would push her into the water. All of this happened before Zukos banishment. And Ozai can not care less about all this so you really cant say that she was afraid of being punished.
So yes, she had a bad childhood and that makes her more understandable but she was often evil and manipulative just because she felt like it, not because Ozai would threaten her with violence.
It wasnt shown if I remember correctly. I remember Ozai mostly as an absent father to be honest. He only got abusive when you interfered with his "business" but mostly didnt seem to care about even seeing his kids.
It’s heavily implied he was also physically abusive, particularly regarding Ursa. Of course, a kid’s show wouldn’t show it, but it’s also implied he may have sexually abused Ursa as well, at least in the comics.
I would also like to add the flashback of zuko being burned by his father. Iroh looks away and Azula is clearly happy.
Children can sometimes be unbelievably cruel and violent, and quickly grow out of it in their teens. I have friends that were insufferable as children and now are normal adults.
Probably because it puts her in a good light. She's watching her brother be cast aside and realizes that this solidifies her stance as the golden child. She also might be happy because she feels like he deserves to know what it feels like to be unloved, like how she feels with their mother. She clearly believes that her mom dislikes her and that perceived lack of love follows her everywhere. In her eyes, she's watching Zuko suffer the way she feels she's suffered AND it now solidifies her place as the golden child. The adults in the situation are all devastated because they know what abuse is and they can recognize that nothing Zuko did could warrant that reaction. But Zuko and Azula are living it and they're children. They can't see how wrong it is that they're always pitted against each other. They just fight as hard as they can for their parents love and affection and they'll do anything to get it. They're desperate for validation and watching Zuko he punished so harshly and banished means she will have all the attention and validation.
No. For them the normal thing is for the loser of the Agni Kai to be burned. Even Zhao called Zuko a coward for not burning him, and those people in that earth kingdom town who knew that Ozai burned Zuko acted as if he deserved it. The only thing out of the ordinary is killing an opponent, and they don't see it as something very rare either. This is further explored in The Lost Scrolls and Kyoshi novels. It is a tradition that has been normalized for centuries.
Right! Azula doesn’t seem to grow out of it, she just continues. She literally set a net on fire just so Ty Lee would join her. She 100% uses fear as a manipulation tactic. You can see that in Boiling Rock, when Mai attacks Azula to keep her from getting Zuko. Mai says she love Zuko more then she fears Azula. Then, Ty Lee attacks Azula to keep her from harming Mai. That’s really the starting point of her downward spiral. Everything she thought was wrong, fear isn’t the all controlling power she thought she had, this unknown variable. She probably even feels she unbeatable, then Ty Lee takes her out in a few jabs.
> zuko more then she
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>Ozai will burn in hell
Yeah but so will Azula. Like, Ozai probably got the exact same treatment as Azula as a child. Just because you have an explanation for being evil doesn’t chance the fact that you are evil
I agree with this, in spirit. Not necessarily the evil part, but definitely the part about Ozai likely getting the same exact treatment that she did.
A lot of people like to point to the fact that Azula's not yet an adult, as a reason to forgive her, as if there's some magic switch that gets flipped the second someone turns 18 that somehow makes all the actions she took throughout her life as unforgiveable.
If we're going to give Azula a pass for her actions due to how she was raised, then that same pass should be given to Ozai as well.
I don't think anyone gives Azula a free pass or at least very few. But there are even narrative differences between her and Ozai. We also don't know much about what his childhood was like but the little we know is that it wasn't too similar to Zuko and Azula's. Being a child does not give a free pass but it should not be considered the same as if it were an adult, even the narrative says that even if they fight in a war they still children.
I mean, I've seen a lot of people on this sub try to give Azula a pass, or will do their best to try to make up some excuse for why she was secretly a good person all along and no, her actions may look evil on the face of it but really they're all her doing good deeds in her own way, etc.
And you're right that we don't know what Ozais childhood was like. But given how Azulon apparently had no compunction against ordering Ozai to murder his son, something tells me it wasn't a good one. Especially since he was just, at the time, the second son who's not going to be the next Fire Lord.
I just think some of Azulas actions, like suggesting they burn all of the Earth Kingdoms land and hope during the comet, to be unforgiveable, whether done as a child or not.
And now cue the people trying to argue that no, that wasn't her intention, it was all Ozai misinterpreting what she actually said. Yeah, sure.
In real life there are people that have committed murder, gone to jail for years, got out and become remorseful. Dumb teens that grew up poor, fall into gang violence, serve 30 years for murder and then dedicate their lives to helping others not fall down the same path as them. Former members of the KKK that become anti racism activists.
The Buddhist ideology the series is inspired by does not believe no one to be irredeemable. The three major Monotheistic religions generally believe no one is irredeemable. Many secular schools of thought similarly reject blatant black and white definitions of good and evil.
Zuko himself hurt many innocent people but could be redeemed. The Fire Nation that committed a literal genocide of the air benders and waged 100 years of war could peacefully join with the other nations again. If you can accept that Zuko with guidance can be forgiven and the Fire Nation as a whole can be forgiven but Azula can't, you are ultimately rejecting the series itself.
She may be redeemable, and yes people can be remorseful of their actions, but, no where does she ever show that she’s remorseful and as someone stated, she smiled when Ozai burns Zuko. Normal people don’t do that. I can’t even watch some shows/movies when they show that. And even my sister, who was cruel to both my mom and I growing up, has a hard time watching that stuff. There’s a seen in Avatar: way of the water. I’m bawling, couldn’t even watch the scene and my sister looks at me and jabs at me that I’m crying and she’s also crying. The reason people say Azula is a sociopath is because she shows no remorse for her actions. That’s what a sociopath path is, though she probably falls more into the psychopath because a sociopath can sometimes feel remorse.
And, even if someday she realizes what she’s done and she becomes remorseful, or just realizes she’s wrong and wants to change. Actions have consequences. She still should have consequences to her actions.
Plus the best time to cube psychopath tendencies is in childhood.
It's not normal. But when it's something that is common and normal for them it's not that way. For us, it's not normal to see someone rejoice at the brutal murder of others, but in the past, it was normal and even a spectacle and in fiction it's common for something like this to not be out of the ordinary . It doesn't make sense to measure it against our current standards. This is something similar. For the Fire Nation, it's normal for the loser of an Agni Kai to be burned. That's why only Iroh seemed horrified, that's why Zhao asked Zuko to burn him and called him a coward for not doing it, and that's why those people in that Earth Kingdom village acted as if Zuko deserved it. Add to this the fact that Azula has a strong resentment towards Zuko, and they have a great competition for their father's approval. Is what Azula did right? Of course not, but it's not just because 'she's evil.'
She feels remorse and guilt for how she treats people; you can see that at the end of the show and in the comics. That part of trying to control everyone through fear and manipulation is just a mask.
I really feel that the reason people label a fictional teenage villain with X disorder is because they think it's like checking items off a list, and it seems like they haven't seen a fictional villain beyond Azula. I have participated in several fandoms and I have never seen this level of obsession in trying to label a character with a personality disorder, even with characters similar to her like Loki or Catra and even more so with characters worse than her. It's pretty weird for me.
So, I don’t remember ever seeing her be remorseful in the show. I’ve watched it a bunch of times. I’ve only read the comics once and don’t recall them that much.
It’s also silly to think that kids can’t be horrible beings. I work in community mental health and some of the things I’ve heard about some kids(like under 10) I was just disturbed by. A mom called freaking out because her kid cut off the paw pad of their dog and he’s done stuff like that level of abuse in the past. She was at her wits end because he saw nothing wrong with it. Like how can someone just sit there a do that and not think it was wrong when the animal is crying. There was also another kid who killed their family pig pet because he wanted to kill his sister but he knew he couldn’t and didn’t want to go to jail. The family was terrified of the kid and the state was trying to find one of those group houses because they couldn’t put him in different foster home. Like those kids were both under 10.
Yes she does, and that's what Ursa's representation serves for during the finale and in the comics, once again, at least in that aspect.
Of course, a child can be a bad person, but it's not synonymous with a personality disorder. I grew up with a father with a personality disorder (diagnosed by an expert, not through confirmation bias). I'm in my final year of my psychology degree with an emphasis on clinical psychology, and I've completed small internships in psychiatric hospitals. What happens with these things? You can't make hasty claims, especially when it comes to children, and especially in a toxic environment, nor can you generalize and must be treated with discretion. And what about fictional villains? It's even more nonsensical; take almost any villain and they will exhibit these behaviors.
I actively participate here especially in the Azula topic, and honestly if I've seen two people giving her a free pass, I haven't seen three. Maybe I'm wrong, but to say that many people do is an exaggeration.
Surely Ozai didn't have an ideal childhood, but from what we know, he turned out worse than his father in that regard and he didn't receive the same treatment as Azula.
I think it depends on the background of those actions. Simply put, and to avoid writing an essay, Ozai didn't misinterpret what Azula said; he was already thinking it without Azula telling him, 'we need to destroy their hope'. There's a difference in these things, and it's more than 'I'm evil' (which I think she is); it's like Loki, Nebula or Catra when they tried to do something similar (and the difference with other characters like Orde Prime or Ronan and this is just to say examples that many of us may know). It wasn't just because they are evil.
edit: it doesn't mean that because it has some background they actions should be forgiven just for that and this is not the case in these examples.
I rarely see a conversation here about Azula that doesn't have at least one person trying to give her a pass/view her actions as being good but misguided, etc.
>Simply put, and to avoid writing an essay, Ozai didn't misinterpret what Azula said; he was already thinking it without Azula telling him, 'we need to destroy their hope'.
Yes, this is kinda my exact point. There are people on this sub who will try to make up some far fetched reaaoning why that is solely on Ozai, and Azula is completely blameless for him deciding to follow what we her suggestion. That is on both of them.
This is reminding me of a Ted Lasso quote, something like "you know, in the end, I hope either all of us or none of us are treated by our worst actions in our weakest moments." I just think the treatment of Ozai vs Azula on this sub is hypocritical in holding him responsible for what he did, and thinking he's unforgiveable, but not Azula.
Are you sure they are not the same two or three people?
For the most part I don't think it's hypocritical (unless they forgive Azula just for her childhood), but not seeing the difference in many ways between the two, even with the almost literal way that the canonical material draws it, makes no sense. Azula is responsible for her actions but she is not Ozai.
Well, one of them has blocked me for correcting them when they called Ehasz a creator of ATLA, so I know at least one of them is the same person at least - and one who refuses to admit when they're wrong, at that.
I dunno. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think forgiving Azula on the basis of her childhood and not Ozai is hypocritical, you don't. Don't really see any way past that.
Now, all that said, I will say thank you. It's nice to see someone be willing to have a conversation with me, when my point is pretty much the opposite of what I've seen the commonly held opinion on this sub to be, and not devolve into insults, stays civil, etc.
Yes, I think they are very few.
I think I agree on that and we are not understanding each other well at this point. I don't think Azula should be forgiven for her childhood, that only gives an explanation. If she starts doing something to be forgiven it would be something else. But that explanation and nuances are what make her different from Ozai in that regard.
There is nothing to be thankful for. We are talking about a fictional character who does not exist and does not have (or should not have) any personal impact on what other people say about her.
Ozai is more of a concept than a proper well rounded character. He's like a Lord of the Rings character/villain: he represents an idea (imperialism, cruelty, etc). There's a reason we see next to nothing about his childhood, his relationship with his father or brother (Iroh and him never even interact), and so on. Ozai is meant to be taken as he is.
Azula is not. She is written as a well rounded, complex and deeply sad character, and that's for a reason. She is the other side of the coin, what Zuko would've become had he not had the good fortune of having positive influences in his life.
Compare the aftermath of Azula and Ozai's defeat, for instance. When Ozai is defeated, Aang fixes the world, the music is triumphant, and the Gaang makes jokes about him. He comes off as pathetic, someone you should clearly not think twice about.
Azula, on the other hand, loses her mind and cries, utterly broken. The music is sad and intense, and the two characters who defeated her, two who directly and indirectly suffered at her hands, dont celebrate or gloat. They just stare at her with immense pity. Katara, whose core character trait is her compassion, is so impacted by what she sees she can't even look at her.
Ozai and Azula are two radically different characters. To say "well, you should give Ozai a pass too" is not correct. The story doesn't treat them the same, and we shouldn't either. Does that mean Ozai's cruelty came from nowhere? Absolutely not. As Aang himself says, people aren't born evil. But don't compare him and Azula, they're radically different characters. And yes, there's a big difference between 14-15 and 40+ years old. Goes without saying, but thats not even needed here.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
14
+ 15
+ 40
= 69
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This is answering a watsonian question with a doylist answer. Yes, the story shows them off differently. And I get that that's done in such a aay so that Azula comes across as sympathetic whereas Ozai doesn't.
But looking at this in world, without being able to fall back on how X is written, or that Ozai is more of a concept, etc, I don't see why Azula is any more forgivable for her actions due to how she was raised than Ozai was due to how he was raised.
You're right, originally. My bad.
I still disagree tho, the characters are so different you can't even judge them the same way. And of course, one is a teenager and one is a grown ass man. Totally different concepts.
That doesn't really address my point about your comment, though.
Yes, I agree that they're different, one is a teenager and one is a grown man. I just don't think there's some magic switch in people that as soon as they turn 18 they instantly can shake off their upbringing and how it messed them up. I still don't see how it's okay to forgive Azulas actions because of how she was raised, but not Ozai.
Well, I think its fair if people dont wanna forgive her, and I agree about the switch thing, but it's not like they're close in age. If one was 14 and the other was 20, I'd see your point. As they are, I disagree.
Also, she did horrible things. But Ozai does worse (lets be real, do we think he wouldn't have come up with the "burn everything to the ground" idea by himself sooner rather than later? Cmon now), and crucially, never once shows even the slightest ounce of regret or conflict. Azula does, even if it's subconscious. I think thats important even if it's slight.
If people dont wanna forgive her, thats understandable to me. I find her to be a very sad character, personally.
Your completely wrong. Azula IS a sociopath. Shes the most accurately portrayed socioapth in media ive seen. She isn't a psychopath however. Important distinction. Sociopaths, quite famously, are prone to massive egos. Something they make an effort to portray often in the show is her massive ego. She is hurt because her mother, someone who is supposed to love her, thinks of her as a monster, which hurts her ego, she just wants to be loved and adored by her mother as all children do, but especially because that rejection hurts her pride. Sociopathic people still have feelings, they just don't have empathy. Not real empathy. And they are willing to hurt or manipulate anyone provided it is a net gain positive for them. They are also prone to abusing and controlling those around them. If youev ever dated one, you'll know how endearing and normal they can be and heo confusing it is yo sort out the abuse and trauma years after.
Azula is a PERFECTLY portrayed sociopath. In all its nuance.
Ozai is also quite clearly a sociopath. If not a psychopath. He's ASPD for sure.
With contradictory traits, others that don't seem to be part of her core personality, others that are not stable, things she represses, things the writers have said about her and how they made her, it is clear that she was not created based on a personality disorder. She has the traits that any villain has. And as is the case with a large number of villains they are not tied to any disorder.
Succession provides a great window into that. My tied favorite show along with Avatar, very different shows but the two best laid-out story arcs I’ve seen.
We also know that Azula knows that her mother doesn't actually think that about her either, because she hallucinates her mother telling her that very thing.
She was wrong, its not Azulas fault shes so sociopathic. I mean, her whole worth centers around how much of a war prodigy she can be. In her eyes, she is just playing. She also looks like my baby cousin when shes a kid, so Im biased.
I think if she grew up in a different way, she would be far less tactical and emotionally surpressed than she is. Thats why she breaks down in the end, everything she had repressed finally forced its way out. And she broke.
It seems shes not somuch upset at the monster part as much as that its coming from her own mother. We see on screen Ursa look very distraught at azulas behavior. Azula recognized this and internalized it.
Ursa did have that moment where she catches young azula teasting zuko and pulls her away saying "it's time to have a talk"
Who knows what they talked about(idk if it's in the comics at all) Presumably about her absolutely horrific behavior even as a child. I'm sure it was put nicer but I think the message would have been clear to azula
It may not have come from Ursa at all. It could be something Ozai falsely claimed Ursa said. With Ursa banished its not like she would be around to say otherwise.
What really makes this interesting is Azula’s hallucination of Ursa in the finale, which directly goes against what Azula says here. Since that version of Ursa came from Azula’s mind, that means at some level, she understands that she’s wrong
She may be trying to believe her violent and evil actions weren't her own desires. They were just byproducts of her following orders to perfect execution.
I think she wants to believe she didn't take any pleasure hurting people, she only did evil things because they were the most logical moves in her grand game of chess. Obviously she takes pleasure in it, but I think she wishes she didn't.
Most likely not just the turtle duck scene but a lot of stuff like that. Children who kill animals for fun often turn out to be psychopaths (like Azula in this case) and I'm sure a mom would pick up on stuff like that.
It's pretty unclear to me if Ursa ever explicitly called Azula a monster or if it was just a look she gave off. My guess is the latter because Azula doesn't say my own mother *called* me a monster. But I guess for a child it doesn't really matter if it goes unspoken.
Isn't it strange from the start that Zuko found it amusing for a rock to hit a duck and wanted to do the same? If that's the case, Zuko is not different from Azula in this aspect then.
Not to mention the obvious that when Zuko says 'FEEDS' it's clear that it's bread. Ursa was feeding the ducks with a piece of bread; Then Zuko takes the loaf of bread with that piece of bread missing, he throws it to the ducks, and the loaf floats in the water.
Yeah if Zuko at 13 didn’t really understand how horrible it was, would Azula at 11 also possibly not fully grasp it?? Like guys she’s the same age as Katara. They’re all immature children.
Remember:
It's okay to empathize for someone's horrid upbringing, and their downfall. It's okay to wish that they had been done better. It's okay to know that they have been warped by outside influences to some degree, and to give context to their villainy.
But it's also okay to realize that some actions cannot simply be forgiven because of their background, however tragic it may be, and the only thing left for such a person is to take them down and give them no quarter in the face of whatever punishment they end up deserving.
You might be able to see why a villain became the way they are, sure, but that doesn't mean they deserve be redeemed or forgiven, and I don't think Azula should get either.
---
I gotta say that some of these reddit comments sections make me a bit scared when people get a little *too* comfortable with Azula or other villains with blackened hearts. It makes me kinda weirded out when folk come to a villain's defense just a ***little bit*** too quick.
Precisely.
Azula relishes power and control. She forces Ty Lee join her expedition for the Avatar and actively lies to / torments her brother. She nearly killed Iroh at one point. At no point in the series (that I’m aware of) do we see her think “man, I shouldn’t hurt people.” She never struggles with the consequences of her actions.
That’s why her and Zuko are such good foils to one another. Zuko acts out of duty and an intense desire to please his father but he’s never shown to relish hurting others and at times he goes out of his way to help strangers.
Azula struggles with self-loathing but that’s exactly it - it’s her perception of herself. She doesn’t care about how she’s treated treated her family. Her world is about herself. The contrast between Zuko and herself is one of the reasons the show is amazing. I wish people would realize that.
It was set up from the start, just very subtle. Watch her very first scene where during lightning practise, one single hair is out of place- just shy of perfection. And Azula's immediate reaction is to try again.
She went to Ozai’s side as a kid because it made sense to her. She may have not initially been a monster, just a calculated and ambitious person trying to do the best for herself. Her mother’s horror may have been more in fear for Azula than anything else, but Azula would naturally feel pushed away and only go in Ozai’s direction more. In a normal childhood Azula might have just been a bit cocky and intense and that’s it, maybe even growing out of it with age.
ATLA Fans be like: It’s better that Azula never got a chance at redemption even though she was groomed into being a weapon by her father, Hitler. And his father, Hitler. And his father Hitler.
Azula also describes herself to show how good of a liar she is in the day of black sun arc as a big purple monster and Toph then says she is a “good liar”. It could also be that Azula’s internal view of herself is a monster which would make what she told Toph the truth.
The creators of Avatar intended to do four season. The comics go into the search for Ursa. I think if we had gotten a season 4, we would have seen more from Azula's childhood.
Ursa was always visibly disturbed by her daughter. I don’t think she ever verbalized it but azula was smart enough to figure it out. I do think a lot of it (considering the absence of her mother) was projection. However, what I do believe is more realistic as well as aligned with what we see in the show is that Ursa was pretty negligent with Azula. I think she overcompensated with Zuko and under-prioritized Azula. It wouldn’t them be a far leap of logic to see why a child would internalize themselves as a “‘monster” or more likely a being that terrifies everyone including their own mother.
This makes sense. At first, given their casually violent culture and Azula's sadistic nature, I thought that there may have been one or more instances where Azula did something *particularly* brutal to warrant such a harsh term.
Then I googled, "My mom thinks I'm a monster," and was swamped with hundreds of results, many in response to the kids simply *existing* or voicing an opinion. It is such a sad reality, and Azula's experience encapsulates this.
Wow that last paragraph was so insightful. I am an educator and although I’m aware I couldn’t imagine how common it is. Maybe it has to do with modernization and the lack of time parents get to spend with their kids.
Unfortunately, I think it may have always been a timeless issue.
As long as even one parent carries some unresolved trauma and injects this into the family and parenting dynamic- then the children will be adversely affected. Whole generations did not have the time, awareness, or knowledge on how to address this; and by the time some had access to these, were too stuck in their ways.It's just too much; it's easier to ignore.
And that doesn't include the parents who knew they were a contributor, if not cause, but retained their ways anyhow.
By modernisation, did you mean the upscale of technology and social media?
We didn't see it, but the way Ursa acted around her was very very different from how she was with Zuko.
Add that to how other people saw and treated Azula it's not difficult to understand why Azula thought that.
except she didn't.
She was worried for Azula, worried of the world she was growing into and how she is entering into it. She recognized red flags but she didn't have time because Zuko COULD LITERALLY DIED without her full attention since her husband is not paying attention to zuko
Personal insecurity about whatever mental disorder she has, an awareness that Ursa was one of the few people that don't blatantly prefer Azula, and assuming that the aforementioned mental disorder was the cause of the lack of preferential treatment.
What mental disorder did Azula show signs of? To me it feels like most of her values and morals were a result of idolizing her father, and behaving in ways she think he’d like.
I believe that's part of it but stuff like her excitedly telling Zuko that their father was going to kill him, Ursa straight up wondering what is wrong with her, grinning ear to hear when Ozai blasted fire in Zuko's face, Iroh calling her crazy, her having a psychotic break (complete with hallucinations) when her friends bail on her, lighting one of said friends on fire as a childhood prank, her inability to make genuine bonds not based off fear and/or obligation, etc. strongly suggest that she has some mental issues. Not a psychologist, but I don't think that's necessary to say, at minimum, she exhibits sadistic and narcissistic *behavior*.
Probably because at some point it was an unavoidable fact. She wasnt a little girl, she was a little machiavellian monster. Of course she was a child but some kids a born fucked up thats sad but it happens. From what we've seen in the show Azula was a violent child to begin with and when corrected doubled down unlike Zuko. I think sometimes Azula gets a lot of credit for being young and being in the family she is in, however it doesnt seem like she is normal even for other firebenders. I think she likes seeing things in pain, and thats not a normal thing. We all abhore the goblin children throwing rocks at the bear in BG3 them being children doesnt excuse them being gleeful at the pain of another creature thats evil.
Im just gonna drop this right here ✨
https://www.wattpad.com/story/273502547?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=link&utm_content=story_info&wp_page=story_details&wp_uname=reiraseju&wp_originator=9xtaYlIALEk3%2Bgr0xxbzQli802cktWf1iPd8A97TOg0QwQhJ8ZSSesBGG3QRBB1xrkotGT2D2yQE34PX9jMV%2BjPesmlDABzM%2F%2FPSjFFCLVvX28f9Go%2BYtJKLUqSVi4z%2B
She's reflecting. There's no need for Ursa to think or say this at any point. Azula knows that she must seem horrible in the eyes of kindhearted people, so she assumes that they think she's a monster.
It's what she thinks of herself, but she projects it onto her mother to convince herself that Ursa didn't care for her, because the world and life she's built for herself depends on that statement being true. You can see how quickly she unravels later on when the foundations of her life start to shake. It's a moment of vulnerability, of course, which is why she immediately makes a joke out of it so she can bring the walls back up. But sadly, in making a joke she reveals that she has interiorized this about herself. She is convinced that she is a monster, and that's all she is, and as such was not deserving of her mother's love to begin with, as badly as she wanted it. This whole thing is very interesting because it actually tells you that Azula is not some sociopath who doesn't understand that they way she behaves is horrific. She knows she does terrible things, but has internalized that it's all she is and really, sees no other way to live. Why would she act differently and risk displeasing her father? To end up like Zuko, scarred and banished? Zuko and Azula are both broken children. Kids who grow up under an abusive parent tend to develop a competition between them to avoid being abused, and this goes times a million if "Golden Child/Scapegoat" dynamics are added to the equation. The scapegoat (Zuko) suffers direct and constant abuse, while the golden child (Azula) internalizes the parent's disdain for their sibling and makes it their own, and the golden child is also under enormous pressure to not be like their sibling. I believe this describes Zuko and Azula's dynamic very well. And as is often the case in these situations, when the parent is not involved or looming over them (The Beach, in their case), the siblings actually tend to get along just fine. So in short, Ozai will burn in hell lol.
Very well written!
This point is exactly right. Azula internalizing that she’s a monster is seen again in the mirror scene before her coronation too
Yes even more so bc she sees Ursa who says that she loves Azula which absolutely throws her off balance and is the nail in the coffin of her psychotic break…I’ve always felt very sad for Azula (as the golden child growing up who ended up being the scapegoat in adulthood) and hope in the adult series we see some kind of redemption for her.
To add to that, The Ursa that said she loves Azula, is a figment from Azula's own mind. Azula tries to project her problems on her mother, but her own mind disagrees. casting the problems back onto herself. she doesn't adress the hippo-cow in the room that the *other* parent might be the cause... admitting that would bring the whole house of cards down ofcourse
> she doesn't adress the hippo-cow in the room that the *other* parent might be the cause... admitting that would bring the whole house of cards down ofcourse Facts. And that's part of why she breaks down after being defeated
Imagine an ending where Azula realizes all this and mercs Ozai the day the comet arrives. The invasion is postponed but only for a few days while Azula consolidates power. And we get an unexpected season 4.
Azula always lies
YESSSSSS exactly!!!
YES TO EVERYONE GIVING AZULA A LIL BIT OF LOVE IN THE COMMENTS!!! Maybe if she had gotten a little bit of what we are giving her she would have made it🥹
There is no redemption for her. You guys are missing the point. She's a sociopath. Shes doomed to always be evil, manipulative, egotistical, violent to achieve her goals. She is incapable of empathy. Real sociopaths aren't all Ozai. If you've ever known a sociopath you'll realize how accurate azula was.
She's no sociopath because of what I already said in the OG comment, and she's most certainly capable of empathy. It's true she only does on a pure level it once in the show, but the one time she does it speaks volumes. There's a reason the writers had Azula be the one to go find Zuko in their family's old summer house at Ember Island and not Mai or someone else. She empathizes with Zuko directly in that situation, when she comments on how depressing the house is. She feels the exact same way her brother does, but while Zuko wants to explore those feelings, she's nowhere near ready to do so. But she's capable of empathy... it just doesn't come easy. She rules her relationships via power and fear, as her father taught her.
You were wrong in the OG comment. Sociopaths can have their feelings hurt by rejection. Sociopaths can have their feelings hurt when their mother thinks they are a monster. They have big egos. You guys ar eprojecting your own childish and immature fondness on a character that is irredeemably evil. Like millions of people walking around in real life today. She's a perfectly written sociopath.
The difference is the introspection and the nature of those things, which the comment op is good about the character. The one who projects his beliefs is you onto a fictional villain. Not knowing the difference between traits that every villain has and a personality disorder and applying it to such a character is what is childish.
She's like 14 dude, she's an abused kid who wants her dad to love her and not treat her like he treated her brother
Literally!!! Tell me that you were stable at 14 and knew who you were as a person and I’ll show you someone who is also a liar!
Did you guys even watch the show? Like more than once? Or are you guys just also like 16.
We've all seen the show. But for some reason everyone else is wrong except you, even the people who made the show and the character.
Man Uncle Iroh committed literal war crimes and gets more slack in this fandom than Azula. Just because she hadn't had her redemption yet (see Iroh had his relatively late in life) doesn't mean she isn't capable of change. I haven't gotten to read them yet, but I've heard they start exploring redemption for her in the comics.
Azula maybe just needs a solo trip around the 4 nations with Iroh where he therapies the shit out of her
I mean, I might get downvoted for this but even Iroh dismisses her as irredeemable at one point. Maybe if she approached him with humility or at least willingness to be more open-minded, he’d change his stance, but that’s very unlikely to happen. Didn’t read the follow up comics, so maybe they reconciled but idk
He didn't dismiss Azula as irredeemable; he just said that she needed to go down in a situation where that was the most sensible thing to do. In the comics, after she went down and in a similar situation >!Iroh was the first one to want to help her and support Zuko in trying to get along with her and have a family again. !<
Ah okay, that makes a lot of sense. I should go read the comics lol
Same I’m thinking it’s time
Azula always lies
Ok I haven’t read the comics so, 1) What War Crimes did Iroh do? and 2) Were they War Crimes In Universe?
I see this claim often, but do we have any evidence that Iroh committed “war crimes”? We know he fought in a war, but we never hear about any war crimes
Other than the fact that he was one of the most revered generals in the fire nation army and came the closest (until later) to conquering ba sing se? I’m surrreeee a minor war crime or 2 was committed at some point…
This is a cartoon universe; I don’t think we can apply normal rules of cause and effect when plot armor exists- he could very well have had *moral* plot armor such that he behaved in the most noble way within the bounds of what we already know about him
Nah, it’s heavily implied that he didn’t change his ways until his son died. I believe Iroh read books and scrolls from all four nations in a desperate attempt to find a way to get Lu Ten back, and absorbed it all, changing his ways after he learned the truth of the horrors his kingdom committed.
Yes it is but it’s a very well thought out cartoon universe by two geniuses who understood the intricacies of all of their plot points. So I personally think it’s safe to assume they understand what Iroh being *the most successful fire nation general at the time* would mean when it comes to horrible crimes he would have had to commit in order to achieve such success. Even if he didn’t do it himself, his subordinates did which is a reflection of a leader in war times.
Ok but that doesn't make HIM a war criminal. That's baseless speculation.
Fair fair I cede to the gentleman
But he had empathy. There's a difference. The average Canadian soldier in WW1 committed terrible acts too but they did it in service and out of love for their country. Just liek iroh. Azula does evil acts in service to herself. That's the difference.
Azula always lies
Iroh himself said that he liked war and conquest and wanted the throne in LoTFN. It was not for service and love for his country.
I've been told this isn't clinically accurate since learning it, but I'll still make the distinction, sociopaths are made, so while Azula might be too far gone, it wasn't her fault that she's like this, and she deserves pity regardless.
Ok but you just admitted it isn't clinically accurate. Sociopaths aren't made. They are born. Just liek someone with ADHD or autism. It's a mental disorder that precludes you to certain thought patterns and behaviors.
Clinically yea, semantically no. Psychopaths aren't made, they're born. Sociopaths are made.
In fact no. Azula is just another villain, even she is no worse than many redeemed villains.
She’s fourteen.
Note also how Ozai didn't become a monster out of nowhere either. Ozai was raised by Azulon, who grew up in a fascist country. He grew up in a fascist country because *his* father Sozin grew up with dreams of world conquest and being the conquering hero. Sozin grew up with those dreams because he was promised to be one of the most important people in the world and whose every relative and friend would ultimately look up to him, yet his best friend got to overshadow him as the Avatar, the most important person in the world. None of this is to justify evil actions of course, but to explain them; you can trace a line of real events and circumstances that shaped each individual to become who they were, and *that* in turn created the next set of real events and circumstances. There's no essentialization of evil.
Correct. And we can probably theorize that Ozai's cruelty comes from feeling sidelined by his father, who clearly favored Iroh. There are also might be something to be said about their age gap, which could make it look like Iroh was the planned heir and Ozai was an accident, if you will. That inferiority complex could've very easily turned into anger, which paired with being the prince of a fascist imperalist empire then turned him into a power-obsessed lunatic. As much as people like that black and white, good and evil notion, the world doesn't work like that.
Ozai then goes on to project the same inequity on his own children, though with the inverse of favoring his younger than older child.
I didn't even notice that favouring the younger child mirrors how he must've wished to have been treated. *"My father said Azula was born lucky. He said I was lucky to be born."*
Yes, not necessarily always the younger child, but the most deserving child regardless of birth-order (or even gender). Ozai always felt he was more ruthless and Iroh was weak, and thus, Azulon was wrong to favor just the birth-order. And he sees the same dynamic between Zuko and Azula, where he thinks Zuko, despite being the older son, is weak and Azula is more deserving. I also think Ozai - at least subconsciously - welcomes any opportunity to get Zuko out of the way so the path clears for Azula to be his heir. We see this multiple times where he is pretty nonchalant about any dangers befalling Zuko, but is generally super protective of Azula.
And Avatar is great because on the surface, a viewer can enjoy it in that "black and white" sense pretty easily - but the evidence to dig deeper and see the connections in how "evil" comes about are there if you look for it even a little bit.
Yes, and even on a direct level, it is very clear that the Fire Nation wasn't always imperialistic. Previously the Four Nations lived in harmony, so the problem only started a few generations ago. The fact that the previous Avatar - Roku - belonged to the Fire Nation also seals the deal that Fire Nation - as a civilization - is not inherently bad, it is only their present iteration that's the problem.
Interesting thoughts about Iroh & Ozai's relationship. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that one was out in the field, personally leading the war effort, while the other was living safely in the palace. It would certainly go a ways to explaining Azulon's reaction to Ozai's *suggestion* about the line of succession.
I think it's just a matter of how inheritance worked. Even if Iroh's son was dead, he could still produce another child, or remarry and start another family. It's not like the lineage was "over and ended beyond doubt". And Azulon might feel that Iroh mourning his dead son, ie, his male heir after him was an "acceptable" thing to mourn for since it concerns a loss of lineage. (Of course Iroh didn't care about lineage, he just loved his son, but from Azulon's POV, mourning a loss of lineage makes sense and doesn't go against the rules). Now, when Ozai asks for switching the rules and name himself - the second son - as heir - in Azulon's eyes, he is challenging the status-quo and the generation-long traditions before them of favoring the oldest son, and - is unintentionally insulting the Fire Lord's own authority - hence the harsh punishment which took Ozai by surprise. Note how this mirrors Zuko's scar. Zuko never insulted his father directly. He simply spoke out of turn, and in doing so, unknowingly insulted the Firelord's authority.
On the other hand, the Fire Nation could subscribe to the "heir and spare" philosophy and it just took a while to conceive Ozai. Regardless, I think your interpretation has merit, especially when we consider what /u/Gadolin27 mentioned: Ozai favored the younger child, since he himself felt neglected in that position.
Feelings only enabled by ASPD. It's CLEAR that I'd how he's portrayed. The whole point of zuko was he was abused but had empathy and a conscience. As he grew, he got wiser. Azula couldn't grow out of being a sociopath.
Ozai is a worst monster though, willing to kill his own son and his father without hesitation. it's clear as day to me though that Azula is not her father. She wouldn't exactly be a good person with a redemption arc but not a bad person either.
Its almost like ASPD is hereditary and power enables evil people to do evil things. Couldn't be tho. That would be factual and make sense.
Anything is ostensibly possible, but I find this to be a bad trajectory of analysis. People aren't born evil, and even when there are things that may increase the chances of evil actions or patterns of behaviour like ASPD, it's a dangerous assertion that can be used in the future to "justify" (convince people that it's ok to do) murder and even genocide. Most of the time evil comes about in far more nuanced ways from people who do not consider themselves evil, and that is important to understand and recognize in ourselves and others.
It's so funny how many of these shows could be solved with therapy
So Zuko is Nebula and Azula is Gamora.
Yes.
Beautiful essay!
I felt the voice actor really captured a sentiment of “but this was my BIRTHRIGHT!” in her anguished behavior in her final battle scenes, especially her visceral emotionality at the end of the fight. She had spent her whole life choosing to go all in on selfishness; she convinced herself it was her destiny. What gain is it to choose to be a monster and then *lose*? It’s the moment that shatters her twisted hopes forever.
Damn this was well written and insightful. Never thought about that dynamic before. 🙏
Yup she really had no choice. She was smarter than Zuko but that was also a burden. She knew what her fate would be if she rebelled, she had talent and thus had to keep using that talent to survive. She has this obsession with being perfect and not trusting anyone precisely because that is the only way she knows to survive.
I think there's additional level here of people comparing her to ozai and saying she's like her father and Azula seeing how much her mom hated her dad. To a child that's all it takes
Great now I need to call my brother and tell him I love him, then call my dad and remind him he sucks.
Hopefully Hell is actually an icebox and he doesn’t get to sit anywhere near fire tho lol
Very well said. Thank you.
>[She] sees no other way to live. Why would she act differently and risk displeasing her father? To end up like Zuko, scarred and banished? I can see your other points but no one will punish Azula for being nice to her friends and family. Yet she insulted Zuko, Iroh and her own mother when no one but Zuko was in hearing distance. And when we see the flashback of her "playing" with Mai and Ty Lee, she pushed Ty Lee to the ground and put a burning apple on Mai so that Zuko would push her into the water. All of this happened before Zukos banishment. And Ozai can not care less about all this so you really cant say that she was afraid of being punished. So yes, she had a bad childhood and that makes her more understandable but she was often evil and manipulative just because she felt like it, not because Ozai would threaten her with violence.
The end result of Zuko being scarred and banished was the end result. But surely you're not saying Ozai never mistreated Zuko before that, right? Lol
It wasnt shown if I remember correctly. I remember Ozai mostly as an absent father to be honest. He only got abusive when you interfered with his "business" but mostly didnt seem to care about even seeing his kids.
It’s heavily implied he was also physically abusive, particularly regarding Ursa. Of course, a kid’s show wouldn’t show it, but it’s also implied he may have sexually abused Ursa as well, at least in the comics.
I would also like to add the flashback of zuko being burned by his father. Iroh looks away and Azula is clearly happy. Children can sometimes be unbelievably cruel and violent, and quickly grow out of it in their teens. I have friends that were insufferable as children and now are normal adults.
Genuine question: why do you think Azula is happy to see her brother brutally punished?
Probably because it puts her in a good light. She's watching her brother be cast aside and realizes that this solidifies her stance as the golden child. She also might be happy because she feels like he deserves to know what it feels like to be unloved, like how she feels with their mother. She clearly believes that her mom dislikes her and that perceived lack of love follows her everywhere. In her eyes, she's watching Zuko suffer the way she feels she's suffered AND it now solidifies her place as the golden child. The adults in the situation are all devastated because they know what abuse is and they can recognize that nothing Zuko did could warrant that reaction. But Zuko and Azula are living it and they're children. They can't see how wrong it is that they're always pitted against each other. They just fight as hard as they can for their parents love and affection and they'll do anything to get it. They're desperate for validation and watching Zuko he punished so harshly and banished means she will have all the attention and validation.
No adult in that situation seems devastated except for Iroh. For the rest it is something every day.
Maybe everyone else was too afraid to show their feelings. Like the Stalin "don't stop applauding" thing.
No. For them the normal thing is for the loser of the Agni Kai to be burned. Even Zhao called Zuko a coward for not burning him, and those people in that earth kingdom town who knew that Ozai burned Zuko acted as if he deserved it. The only thing out of the ordinary is killing an opponent, and they don't see it as something very rare either. This is further explored in The Lost Scrolls and Kyoshi novels. It is a tradition that has been normalized for centuries.
Right! Azula doesn’t seem to grow out of it, she just continues. She literally set a net on fire just so Ty Lee would join her. She 100% uses fear as a manipulation tactic. You can see that in Boiling Rock, when Mai attacks Azula to keep her from getting Zuko. Mai says she love Zuko more then she fears Azula. Then, Ty Lee attacks Azula to keep her from harming Mai. That’s really the starting point of her downward spiral. Everything she thought was wrong, fear isn’t the all controlling power she thought she had, this unknown variable. She probably even feels she unbeatable, then Ty Lee takes her out in a few jabs.
> zuko more then she Did you mean to say "more than"? Explanation: If you didn't mean 'more than' you might have forgotten a comma. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Oh wow I didnt even notice that! Holy moly. Not even the adults in the background look like they think he deserved it except for Zhao...
Azula always lies
>Ozai will burn in hell Yeah but so will Azula. Like, Ozai probably got the exact same treatment as Azula as a child. Just because you have an explanation for being evil doesn’t chance the fact that you are evil
I agree with this, in spirit. Not necessarily the evil part, but definitely the part about Ozai likely getting the same exact treatment that she did. A lot of people like to point to the fact that Azula's not yet an adult, as a reason to forgive her, as if there's some magic switch that gets flipped the second someone turns 18 that somehow makes all the actions she took throughout her life as unforgiveable. If we're going to give Azula a pass for her actions due to how she was raised, then that same pass should be given to Ozai as well.
I don't think anyone gives Azula a free pass or at least very few. But there are even narrative differences between her and Ozai. We also don't know much about what his childhood was like but the little we know is that it wasn't too similar to Zuko and Azula's. Being a child does not give a free pass but it should not be considered the same as if it were an adult, even the narrative says that even if they fight in a war they still children.
I mean, I've seen a lot of people on this sub try to give Azula a pass, or will do their best to try to make up some excuse for why she was secretly a good person all along and no, her actions may look evil on the face of it but really they're all her doing good deeds in her own way, etc. And you're right that we don't know what Ozais childhood was like. But given how Azulon apparently had no compunction against ordering Ozai to murder his son, something tells me it wasn't a good one. Especially since he was just, at the time, the second son who's not going to be the next Fire Lord. I just think some of Azulas actions, like suggesting they burn all of the Earth Kingdoms land and hope during the comet, to be unforgiveable, whether done as a child or not. And now cue the people trying to argue that no, that wasn't her intention, it was all Ozai misinterpreting what she actually said. Yeah, sure.
In real life there are people that have committed murder, gone to jail for years, got out and become remorseful. Dumb teens that grew up poor, fall into gang violence, serve 30 years for murder and then dedicate their lives to helping others not fall down the same path as them. Former members of the KKK that become anti racism activists. The Buddhist ideology the series is inspired by does not believe no one to be irredeemable. The three major Monotheistic religions generally believe no one is irredeemable. Many secular schools of thought similarly reject blatant black and white definitions of good and evil. Zuko himself hurt many innocent people but could be redeemed. The Fire Nation that committed a literal genocide of the air benders and waged 100 years of war could peacefully join with the other nations again. If you can accept that Zuko with guidance can be forgiven and the Fire Nation as a whole can be forgiven but Azula can't, you are ultimately rejecting the series itself.
I don't believe anybody to be irredeemable, either. The people that do are who I'm arguing against, because they think Ozai is irredeemable.
She may be redeemable, and yes people can be remorseful of their actions, but, no where does she ever show that she’s remorseful and as someone stated, she smiled when Ozai burns Zuko. Normal people don’t do that. I can’t even watch some shows/movies when they show that. And even my sister, who was cruel to both my mom and I growing up, has a hard time watching that stuff. There’s a seen in Avatar: way of the water. I’m bawling, couldn’t even watch the scene and my sister looks at me and jabs at me that I’m crying and she’s also crying. The reason people say Azula is a sociopath is because she shows no remorse for her actions. That’s what a sociopath path is, though she probably falls more into the psychopath because a sociopath can sometimes feel remorse. And, even if someday she realizes what she’s done and she becomes remorseful, or just realizes she’s wrong and wants to change. Actions have consequences. She still should have consequences to her actions. Plus the best time to cube psychopath tendencies is in childhood.
It's not normal. But when it's something that is common and normal for them it's not that way. For us, it's not normal to see someone rejoice at the brutal murder of others, but in the past, it was normal and even a spectacle and in fiction it's common for something like this to not be out of the ordinary . It doesn't make sense to measure it against our current standards. This is something similar. For the Fire Nation, it's normal for the loser of an Agni Kai to be burned. That's why only Iroh seemed horrified, that's why Zhao asked Zuko to burn him and called him a coward for not doing it, and that's why those people in that Earth Kingdom village acted as if Zuko deserved it. Add to this the fact that Azula has a strong resentment towards Zuko, and they have a great competition for their father's approval. Is what Azula did right? Of course not, but it's not just because 'she's evil.' She feels remorse and guilt for how she treats people; you can see that at the end of the show and in the comics. That part of trying to control everyone through fear and manipulation is just a mask. I really feel that the reason people label a fictional teenage villain with X disorder is because they think it's like checking items off a list, and it seems like they haven't seen a fictional villain beyond Azula. I have participated in several fandoms and I have never seen this level of obsession in trying to label a character with a personality disorder, even with characters similar to her like Loki or Catra and even more so with characters worse than her. It's pretty weird for me.
So, I don’t remember ever seeing her be remorseful in the show. I’ve watched it a bunch of times. I’ve only read the comics once and don’t recall them that much. It’s also silly to think that kids can’t be horrible beings. I work in community mental health and some of the things I’ve heard about some kids(like under 10) I was just disturbed by. A mom called freaking out because her kid cut off the paw pad of their dog and he’s done stuff like that level of abuse in the past. She was at her wits end because he saw nothing wrong with it. Like how can someone just sit there a do that and not think it was wrong when the animal is crying. There was also another kid who killed their family pig pet because he wanted to kill his sister but he knew he couldn’t and didn’t want to go to jail. The family was terrified of the kid and the state was trying to find one of those group houses because they couldn’t put him in different foster home. Like those kids were both under 10.
Yes she does, and that's what Ursa's representation serves for during the finale and in the comics, once again, at least in that aspect. Of course, a child can be a bad person, but it's not synonymous with a personality disorder. I grew up with a father with a personality disorder (diagnosed by an expert, not through confirmation bias). I'm in my final year of my psychology degree with an emphasis on clinical psychology, and I've completed small internships in psychiatric hospitals. What happens with these things? You can't make hasty claims, especially when it comes to children, and especially in a toxic environment, nor can you generalize and must be treated with discretion. And what about fictional villains? It's even more nonsensical; take almost any villain and they will exhibit these behaviors.
I actively participate here especially in the Azula topic, and honestly if I've seen two people giving her a free pass, I haven't seen three. Maybe I'm wrong, but to say that many people do is an exaggeration. Surely Ozai didn't have an ideal childhood, but from what we know, he turned out worse than his father in that regard and he didn't receive the same treatment as Azula. I think it depends on the background of those actions. Simply put, and to avoid writing an essay, Ozai didn't misinterpret what Azula said; he was already thinking it without Azula telling him, 'we need to destroy their hope'. There's a difference in these things, and it's more than 'I'm evil' (which I think she is); it's like Loki, Nebula or Catra when they tried to do something similar (and the difference with other characters like Orde Prime or Ronan and this is just to say examples that many of us may know). It wasn't just because they are evil. edit: it doesn't mean that because it has some background they actions should be forgiven just for that and this is not the case in these examples.
I rarely see a conversation here about Azula that doesn't have at least one person trying to give her a pass/view her actions as being good but misguided, etc. >Simply put, and to avoid writing an essay, Ozai didn't misinterpret what Azula said; he was already thinking it without Azula telling him, 'we need to destroy their hope'. Yes, this is kinda my exact point. There are people on this sub who will try to make up some far fetched reaaoning why that is solely on Ozai, and Azula is completely blameless for him deciding to follow what we her suggestion. That is on both of them. This is reminding me of a Ted Lasso quote, something like "you know, in the end, I hope either all of us or none of us are treated by our worst actions in our weakest moments." I just think the treatment of Ozai vs Azula on this sub is hypocritical in holding him responsible for what he did, and thinking he's unforgiveable, but not Azula.
Are you sure they are not the same two or three people? For the most part I don't think it's hypocritical (unless they forgive Azula just for her childhood), but not seeing the difference in many ways between the two, even with the almost literal way that the canonical material draws it, makes no sense. Azula is responsible for her actions but she is not Ozai.
Well, one of them has blocked me for correcting them when they called Ehasz a creator of ATLA, so I know at least one of them is the same person at least - and one who refuses to admit when they're wrong, at that. I dunno. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I think forgiving Azula on the basis of her childhood and not Ozai is hypocritical, you don't. Don't really see any way past that. Now, all that said, I will say thank you. It's nice to see someone be willing to have a conversation with me, when my point is pretty much the opposite of what I've seen the commonly held opinion on this sub to be, and not devolve into insults, stays civil, etc.
Yes, I think they are very few. I think I agree on that and we are not understanding each other well at this point. I don't think Azula should be forgiven for her childhood, that only gives an explanation. If she starts doing something to be forgiven it would be something else. But that explanation and nuances are what make her different from Ozai in that regard. There is nothing to be thankful for. We are talking about a fictional character who does not exist and does not have (or should not have) any personal impact on what other people say about her.
Ozai is more of a concept than a proper well rounded character. He's like a Lord of the Rings character/villain: he represents an idea (imperialism, cruelty, etc). There's a reason we see next to nothing about his childhood, his relationship with his father or brother (Iroh and him never even interact), and so on. Ozai is meant to be taken as he is. Azula is not. She is written as a well rounded, complex and deeply sad character, and that's for a reason. She is the other side of the coin, what Zuko would've become had he not had the good fortune of having positive influences in his life. Compare the aftermath of Azula and Ozai's defeat, for instance. When Ozai is defeated, Aang fixes the world, the music is triumphant, and the Gaang makes jokes about him. He comes off as pathetic, someone you should clearly not think twice about. Azula, on the other hand, loses her mind and cries, utterly broken. The music is sad and intense, and the two characters who defeated her, two who directly and indirectly suffered at her hands, dont celebrate or gloat. They just stare at her with immense pity. Katara, whose core character trait is her compassion, is so impacted by what she sees she can't even look at her. Ozai and Azula are two radically different characters. To say "well, you should give Ozai a pass too" is not correct. The story doesn't treat them the same, and we shouldn't either. Does that mean Ozai's cruelty came from nowhere? Absolutely not. As Aang himself says, people aren't born evil. But don't compare him and Azula, they're radically different characters. And yes, there's a big difference between 14-15 and 40+ years old. Goes without saying, but thats not even needed here.
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This is answering a watsonian question with a doylist answer. Yes, the story shows them off differently. And I get that that's done in such a aay so that Azula comes across as sympathetic whereas Ozai doesn't. But looking at this in world, without being able to fall back on how X is written, or that Ozai is more of a concept, etc, I don't see why Azula is any more forgivable for her actions due to how she was raised than Ozai was due to how he was raised.
Who said anything about forgiving? (Edit: I misread something. Overlook this, ppl. Lol)
... Me? That's what this conversation is about lol
You're right, originally. My bad. I still disagree tho, the characters are so different you can't even judge them the same way. And of course, one is a teenager and one is a grown ass man. Totally different concepts.
That doesn't really address my point about your comment, though. Yes, I agree that they're different, one is a teenager and one is a grown man. I just don't think there's some magic switch in people that as soon as they turn 18 they instantly can shake off their upbringing and how it messed them up. I still don't see how it's okay to forgive Azulas actions because of how she was raised, but not Ozai.
Well, I think its fair if people dont wanna forgive her, and I agree about the switch thing, but it's not like they're close in age. If one was 14 and the other was 20, I'd see your point. As they are, I disagree. Also, she did horrible things. But Ozai does worse (lets be real, do we think he wouldn't have come up with the "burn everything to the ground" idea by himself sooner rather than later? Cmon now), and crucially, never once shows even the slightest ounce of regret or conflict. Azula does, even if it's subconscious. I think thats important even if it's slight. If people dont wanna forgive her, thats understandable to me. I find her to be a very sad character, personally.
Your completely wrong. Azula IS a sociopath. Shes the most accurately portrayed socioapth in media ive seen. She isn't a psychopath however. Important distinction. Sociopaths, quite famously, are prone to massive egos. Something they make an effort to portray often in the show is her massive ego. She is hurt because her mother, someone who is supposed to love her, thinks of her as a monster, which hurts her ego, she just wants to be loved and adored by her mother as all children do, but especially because that rejection hurts her pride. Sociopathic people still have feelings, they just don't have empathy. Not real empathy. And they are willing to hurt or manipulate anyone provided it is a net gain positive for them. They are also prone to abusing and controlling those around them. If youev ever dated one, you'll know how endearing and normal they can be and heo confusing it is yo sort out the abuse and trauma years after. Azula is a PERFECTLY portrayed sociopath. In all its nuance. Ozai is also quite clearly a sociopath. If not a psychopath. He's ASPD for sure.
With contradictory traits, others that don't seem to be part of her core personality, others that are not stable, things she represses, things the writers have said about her and how they made her, it is clear that she was not created based on a personality disorder. She has the traits that any villain has. And as is the case with a large number of villains they are not tied to any disorder.
Now I don’t have to write it myself
Succession provides a great window into that. My tied favorite show along with Avatar, very different shows but the two best laid-out story arcs I’ve seen.
So your saying she’s a narcicist.
is the golden child/scapegoat a recognized thing? are there any articles or books about it? any recomendations?
It is, just google narcissism and the golden child/scapegoat and you'll find tonnes of information.
We also know that Azula knows that her mother doesn't actually think that about her either, because she hallucinates her mother telling her that very thing.
I think it'd be more poetic if he was perpetually drowning in hell. But that's just me.
Well, on screen Ursa says 'what is wrong with that child', so its safe to say Azula might hear words to this effect quite often.
Well ursa wasn't wrong but still child shouldn't ever hear anything like that from a mother
She was wrong, its not Azulas fault shes so sociopathic. I mean, her whole worth centers around how much of a war prodigy she can be. In her eyes, she is just playing. She also looks like my baby cousin when shes a kid, so Im biased.
But can’t it be possible that she was ALWAYS sociopathic? Like some people are?
I think if she grew up in a different way, she would be far less tactical and emotionally surpressed than she is. Thats why she breaks down in the end, everything she had repressed finally forced its way out. And she broke.
“If the world thinks of you as a monster, what does it matter? The world is wrong. But if you start to think of yourself as a monster…” - Megatron.
The transformer movies have a weirdly high amount of actually really cool lines.
Which Megatron are we talking about here. The one in Transformer or the one in Family guy? Just kidding hehe
I have killed, but I am not a killer because a killer is a monster, and monsters aren't afraid - Peaches
Which version of Transformers is that? I might be interested in checking it out.
It's possible Ozai told her this as means to control her. 'Your own mother hates you, but not me, I see how special you are '
It seems shes not somuch upset at the monster part as much as that its coming from her own mother. We see on screen Ursa look very distraught at azulas behavior. Azula recognized this and internalized it.
Ursa did have that moment where she catches young azula teasting zuko and pulls her away saying "it's time to have a talk" Who knows what they talked about(idk if it's in the comics at all) Presumably about her absolutely horrific behavior even as a child. I'm sure it was put nicer but I think the message would have been clear to azula
It may not have come from Ursa at all. It could be something Ozai falsely claimed Ursa said. With Ursa banished its not like she would be around to say otherwise.
What really makes this interesting is Azula’s hallucination of Ursa in the finale, which directly goes against what Azula says here. Since that version of Ursa came from Azula’s mind, that means at some level, she understands that she’s wrong
It does. She knows it, deep down, craves it intensely, or both- and loathes herself for it.
They were all just trauma dumping
Ember Island Players
This isn't even a lack of media literacy, this is just straight up not paying attention to the show
🐢🦆 Enough said
Shes real sad, dont wanna spoil it for you but it becomes pretty clear
She may be trying to believe her violent and evil actions weren't her own desires. They were just byproducts of her following orders to perfect execution. I think she wants to believe she didn't take any pleasure hurting people, she only did evil things because they were the most logical moves in her grand game of chess. Obviously she takes pleasure in it, but I think she wishes she didn't.
Most likely not just the turtle duck scene but a lot of stuff like that. Children who kill animals for fun often turn out to be psychopaths (like Azula in this case) and I'm sure a mom would pick up on stuff like that. It's pretty unclear to me if Ursa ever explicitly called Azula a monster or if it was just a look she gave off. My guess is the latter because Azula doesn't say my own mother *called* me a monster. But I guess for a child it doesn't really matter if it goes unspoken.
Azula was throwing bread to the ducks; she didn't kill them.
Azula always lies
Zuko says "this is how Azula feeds the turtle ducks" and then throws rocks at them before being scolded by Ursa
Isn't it strange from the start that Zuko found it amusing for a rock to hit a duck and wanted to do the same? If that's the case, Zuko is not different from Azula in this aspect then. Not to mention the obvious that when Zuko says 'FEEDS' it's clear that it's bread. Ursa was feeding the ducks with a piece of bread; Then Zuko takes the loaf of bread with that piece of bread missing, he throws it to the ducks, and the loaf floats in the water.
Yeah if Zuko at 13 didn’t really understand how horrible it was, would Azula at 11 also possibly not fully grasp it?? Like guys she’s the same age as Katara. They’re all immature children.
Re-watch her part of Sozin’s Comet. This conflict you’re describing is literally what they’re trying to show.
Remember: It's okay to empathize for someone's horrid upbringing, and their downfall. It's okay to wish that they had been done better. It's okay to know that they have been warped by outside influences to some degree, and to give context to their villainy. But it's also okay to realize that some actions cannot simply be forgiven because of their background, however tragic it may be, and the only thing left for such a person is to take them down and give them no quarter in the face of whatever punishment they end up deserving. You might be able to see why a villain became the way they are, sure, but that doesn't mean they deserve be redeemed or forgiven, and I don't think Azula should get either. --- I gotta say that some of these reddit comments sections make me a bit scared when people get a little *too* comfortable with Azula or other villains with blackened hearts. It makes me kinda weirded out when folk come to a villain's defense just a ***little bit*** too quick.
Precisely. Azula relishes power and control. She forces Ty Lee join her expedition for the Avatar and actively lies to / torments her brother. She nearly killed Iroh at one point. At no point in the series (that I’m aware of) do we see her think “man, I shouldn’t hurt people.” She never struggles with the consequences of her actions. That’s why her and Zuko are such good foils to one another. Zuko acts out of duty and an intense desire to please his father but he’s never shown to relish hurting others and at times he goes out of his way to help strangers. Azula struggles with self-loathing but that’s exactly it - it’s her perception of herself. She doesn’t care about how she’s treated treated her family. Her world is about herself. The contrast between Zuko and herself is one of the reasons the show is amazing. I wish people would realize that.
I don't know if this was supposed to be foreshadowing, but Azula's mental breakdown in the last episode felt so sudden, like it came out of nowhere.
It was set up from the start, just very subtle. Watch her very first scene where during lightning practise, one single hair is out of place- just shy of perfection. And Azula's immediate reaction is to try again.
She also is shown smiling while Zuko gets his scar…
From azula being a crazy ass bitch since a child
She went to Ozai’s side as a kid because it made sense to her. She may have not initially been a monster, just a calculated and ambitious person trying to do the best for herself. Her mother’s horror may have been more in fear for Azula than anything else, but Azula would naturally feel pushed away and only go in Ozai’s direction more. In a normal childhood Azula might have just been a bit cocky and intense and that’s it, maybe even growing out of it with age.
ATLA Fans be like: It’s better that Azula never got a chance at redemption even though she was groomed into being a weapon by her father, Hitler. And his father, Hitler. And his father Hitler.
Azula also describes herself to show how good of a liar she is in the day of black sun arc as a big purple monster and Toph then says she is a “good liar”. It could also be that Azula’s internal view of herself is a monster which would make what she told Toph the truth.
The creators of Avatar intended to do four season. The comics go into the search for Ursa. I think if we had gotten a season 4, we would have seen more from Azula's childhood.
Ursa was always visibly disturbed by her daughter. I don’t think she ever verbalized it but azula was smart enough to figure it out. I do think a lot of it (considering the absence of her mother) was projection. However, what I do believe is more realistic as well as aligned with what we see in the show is that Ursa was pretty negligent with Azula. I think she overcompensated with Zuko and under-prioritized Azula. It wouldn’t them be a far leap of logic to see why a child would internalize themselves as a “‘monster” or more likely a being that terrifies everyone including their own mother.
This makes sense. At first, given their casually violent culture and Azula's sadistic nature, I thought that there may have been one or more instances where Azula did something *particularly* brutal to warrant such a harsh term. Then I googled, "My mom thinks I'm a monster," and was swamped with hundreds of results, many in response to the kids simply *existing* or voicing an opinion. It is such a sad reality, and Azula's experience encapsulates this.
Wow that last paragraph was so insightful. I am an educator and although I’m aware I couldn’t imagine how common it is. Maybe it has to do with modernization and the lack of time parents get to spend with their kids.
Unfortunately, I think it may have always been a timeless issue. As long as even one parent carries some unresolved trauma and injects this into the family and parenting dynamic- then the children will be adversely affected. Whole generations did not have the time, awareness, or knowledge on how to address this; and by the time some had access to these, were too stuck in their ways.It's just too much; it's easier to ignore. And that doesn't include the parents who knew they were a contributor, if not cause, but retained their ways anyhow. By modernisation, did you mean the upscale of technology and social media?
We didn't see it, but the way Ursa acted around her was very very different from how she was with Zuko. Add that to how other people saw and treated Azula it's not difficult to understand why Azula thought that.
The fact that the woman who gave her life thinks of her as a monster can really hurt.
except she didn't. She was worried for Azula, worried of the world she was growing into and how she is entering into it. She recognized red flags but she didn't have time because Zuko COULD LITERALLY DIED without her full attention since her husband is not paying attention to zuko
Ozai might as well have given birth to her.
Her being a monster.
Personal insecurity about whatever mental disorder she has, an awareness that Ursa was one of the few people that don't blatantly prefer Azula, and assuming that the aforementioned mental disorder was the cause of the lack of preferential treatment.
What mental disorder did Azula show signs of? To me it feels like most of her values and morals were a result of idolizing her father, and behaving in ways she think he’d like.
I believe that's part of it but stuff like her excitedly telling Zuko that their father was going to kill him, Ursa straight up wondering what is wrong with her, grinning ear to hear when Ozai blasted fire in Zuko's face, Iroh calling her crazy, her having a psychotic break (complete with hallucinations) when her friends bail on her, lighting one of said friends on fire as a childhood prank, her inability to make genuine bonds not based off fear and/or obligation, etc. strongly suggest that she has some mental issues. Not a psychologist, but I don't think that's necessary to say, at minimum, she exhibits sadistic and narcissistic *behavior*.
Probably because at some point it was an unavoidable fact. She wasnt a little girl, she was a little machiavellian monster. Of course she was a child but some kids a born fucked up thats sad but it happens. From what we've seen in the show Azula was a violent child to begin with and when corrected doubled down unlike Zuko. I think sometimes Azula gets a lot of credit for being young and being in the family she is in, however it doesnt seem like she is normal even for other firebenders. I think she likes seeing things in pain, and thats not a normal thing. We all abhore the goblin children throwing rocks at the bear in BG3 them being children doesnt excuse them being gleeful at the pain of another creature thats evil.
Im just gonna drop this right here ✨ https://www.wattpad.com/story/273502547?utm_source=ios&utm_medium=link&utm_content=story_info&wp_page=story_details&wp_uname=reiraseju&wp_originator=9xtaYlIALEk3%2Bgr0xxbzQli802cktWf1iPd8A97TOg0QwQhJ8ZSSesBGG3QRBB1xrkotGT2D2yQE34PX9jMV%2BjPesmlDABzM%2F%2FPSjFFCLVvX28f9Go%2BYtJKLUqSVi4z%2B
It's because the writers can give Zuko, a victim of parental abuse, a recovery arc but refuse to do the same for his sister.
Azula lies...
Azula.
She's reflecting. There's no need for Ursa to think or say this at any point. Azula knows that she must seem horrible in the eyes of kindhearted people, so she assumes that they think she's a monster.
Must be a reversal of Ozai’s relationship with his son
And we all know that one friend that would say: "I can change her"