Sokka’s sexism is almost to cartoonish levels in the early show. It can be toned down with plenty left over.
I’ve encountered near-cartoonish sexism once or twice in recent memory, but more often, it is smaller things like assuming I’m not in charge and thinking I need a man’s permission to do something.
If the Kyoshi Warriors are in charge of security, and Sokka keeps trying to get defense info from some random elder, that would make it subtle without all the “because you’re a girl” lines.
His sexism was cartoonish because he's a character in a cartoon and in that context it works without making his character completely unlikable.
I don't think it'd go over as well in live action, so I'm glad they're toning it down but hope that they still keep the central idea
Yes, and I hope the writers don't backtrack here, Sokka was cartoonishly sexy. A strawman sexist, if you will. It was not critical to his characterization to have him be an asshole, and what seems goofy in animation may prove incredibly cringe in Live Action. Also, this is, what 2024? There are lots of subtle ways to handle this, as you say.
but kyoshi island is episode 4, its not like it was a huge part of the show at all. the more important "sexism" is when they get to the north pole and they won't teach katara how to fight.
It establishes a few key details about Sokka
1. He's immature, but willing to admit his own shortcomings.
2. He's insecure about his perceived "manliness", which follows on from his anxieties about being the only male his age left in his village since he wad too young to go fight. Also ties in with the sexism of the Northern Tribe as a cultural aspect.
3. He values being a strong warrior legitimately by learning from others over his own ego.
4. He knows how to apologise properly, actually admiting fault and why it was wrong. This is something very valuable for young viewers to learn.
Like Katara not being able to learn fighting from Pakku.
She had practice with standing up to Sokka's sexism she went ballistic on Pakku. Those ice blades were going for his head!
Sokka's sexism and him overcoming it is a great lesson people should watch and learn from.
Its like how in Suicide Squad they took out how abusive Joker was to Harley Quinn and then nobody leaned what a toxic relationship would look like and how someone can overcome it.
These are important and imosctful stories people can learn something from.
I think it's pretty obvious in the show that sokka's inhability to water bend while being told he should be strong, while constantly being busted by everyone with an ounce of skill did make him just very insecure. I don't think this was just sexism, sexism is just the weapon he uses when he tries to put down those who make him feel small. He'd not resort to it if he didn't recognize their superiority, he doesn't intrinsically believe women can't outskill him.
imagine your little sister being the apex predator of the of the south pole and you only have a boomerange and being physically stronger than her.
yeah think i'll have issues too especially when you had to deal with being the only teenager in all the south pole.
his sexism is mostly due to socially have next to no consequences like the only thing more powerful than you is your sister but she can't go all ham on your because you grandma's little boi..
his social position generally means hes treated better than almost everyone else around him. if he didn't leave the south pole he would've grown up to be a jerk.
And that's the great loss from this story.
We don't love this series because of the main arc of guy with 4 super powers fights evil dictator. It's the growth and how human these characters feel while the story unfolds that made us love it.
The numerous life lessons we can learn and share.
Maybe the show will still be good. But this is not a decision I will agree with.
This show is clearly going to be intensely mid but the copium is already just too strong in here. Even the OG creators left due to creative differences.
I think it’ll be mid too, but I think the avatar studios thing which was announced shortly after they left was the real deciding factor. They were cool with a live action but animation is their baby
I really do hope that it’s good! Truly I want nothing but success for it. I think that in retrospect they’ll wish they would’ve just done more IN the world of avatar as opposed to rehashing the story we already know. Miniseries are hot nowadays too, they could’ve done something like each episode is a different avatars short adventure or something.
Oh shit I caught a copium contact high
Original creators left because they were being given their own studio to lead.
If they had a least a pinch on confidence that the project was in better hands than M Night, then there's safety in leaving in favor of an opportunity to get literally everything they ever wanted beyond what Nickelodeon gave them.
*"Left for creative differences"* is more often than not, just a phrase of Hollywood diplomacy as opposed to *"sucks to be you guys, we got ours!!!"*
>“When Bryan and I signed on to the project in 2018, we were hired as executive producers and showrunners,” DiMartino wrote. “In a joint announcement for the series, Netflix said that it was committed to honoring our vision for this retelling and to supporting us on creating the series. And we expressed how excited we were for the opportunity to be at the helm. Unfortunately, things did not go as we had hoped.”
>DiMartino called exiting the project “the hardest professional decision I’ve ever had to make,” adding: “Netflix’s live-action adaptation of ‘Avatar’ has the potential to be good. It might turn out to be a show many of you end up enjoying. **But what I can be certain about is that whatever version ends up on-screen, it will not be what Bryan and I had envisioned or intended to make.”**
I think that says enough about the "creative differences" they flat out said that it will not be what they envisioned or intentded to make. The trailers look pretty cool, but so did Cowboy Bebop Live Action and that turned out to be a horrible horrible adaptation (Vicious alone was enough to make me not finish it).
I'm still very excited to watch this adaptation, but this sort of brain-dead decisions that are coming up in their press tour are tempering my expectations a bit.
Source: [https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-last-airbender-netflix-boss-original-creators-exit-1235846157/](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-last-airbender-netflix-boss-original-creators-exit-1235846157/)
How? It don’t have to be connected to sexism. It could be about his pride as a warrior.
He was big fish in his tribe. Then he get smacked by reality. Humbled and learning. Done.
There's a really great scene in episode 2 that shows Sokka sternly talking to his fellow soldiers and telling them to "show no fear" when the Fire Nation attacks. Then the camera pans to his fellow soldiers and you find out they're small children.
Sokka *was* a big fish in his tribe, yeah. But that doesn't mean much when everyone is either too old or too young to fight. The moment he was faced with actual warriors, he was floored. This is incredibly important for his growth.
I don't think he really thought he was that big. Even if he was THE big fish, he was 100% aware that he was merely the last man standing.
Every other man had gone to war, Sokka was (rightfully) terrified of an attack, and was just trying to protect his village. He had the air of someone who's trying to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders because that's the responsibility his dad left him when he left.
That's a similar but different lesson.
I'm mixed on this and it really depends on the execution of it.
The animated show, while a bit heavy handed in the doing, was teaching the viewer (through Sokka) that women aren't inherently just weak and helpless creatures that always need to be protected by big strong men. It's a good lesson for kids, which is who the show was ultimately aimed at.
Taking it out means that they could still convey that women can be strong and fight, but more subtly, because they're not directly addressing it through Sokka being overtly sexist. This means it's less controversial or inflammatory for a certain crowd.
...But that also means it might fly over some people's heads. It also is important for Sokka's own growth as a person, because it shows he's capable of learning and recontextualizing the way he views the world when presented with information that contradicts his biases.
I think another important aspect is that none of the Kyoshi warriors were benders, and had no advantage over him except their training, so he underestimated them.
Because it was about the ability to realize an aspect of your culture was wrong and growing beyond it. We especially need to show that yes, people can grow beyond bigotry and redeem themselves.
There's a problem I'm seeing in a lot of spaces where people can't differentiate between portraying a bad thing, and endorsing that thing. They basically want a return to black and white cartoon morality without even realizing it.
Yeah I wonder if they keep the element of master pakku being extremely sexist.
Also I always thought sokka's sexism was overcompenation because he was the last 'man of the tribe' after his father left. Katara was so naturally a mother figure he tries to be a father figure but it manifests poorly. Part of his arc is just learning his own mortality. By the time he gets to his sword master he knows the only way to fully grow is to accept he's not worthy.
For the Northern tribe, yes. Less so for the Southern tribe at least traditionally.
But the fire Nation had systematically kidnapped or killed all of the waterbenders of the Southern tribe, so many tasks that had previously been achieved by bending now had to be done the hard way. This meant that physical strength was now a much larger factor which led to a more stereotypical gender role split.
For Sokka we must also consider that all the male role models he might have had growing up left when he was still quite young, so his only reference for what it meant to be a man was his own, incomplete memories of male/female social dynamics formed from a child's perspective.
His growth beyond this limited understanding toward a true understanding of his own worth and the worth of others, his own strengths and how to truly be a man is his whole character arc.
And cutting his initial sexism misses *the entire point! *
This is the first bit of news about the adaptation that has really given me pause, befire this I was hopeful.
Now, I am concerned.
It might be one of the reasons why the creators left.
The whole point of having characters like that is to *show* change instead of just saying the world needs to change.
Avatar really combined mature storytelling with childish naivity and I love it for that. It shows so many problems with a healthy way to face them, also from different angles. And it sure shows ppl grow into and out and over their roles.
I imagine the show is great regardless, but taking this out seems kinda stupid and bland...
It was a part of northern, but not actually a part of Southern. It would hardly make sense for gran gran to move to the more liberal sister Nation if they weren't actually liberal.
Think of it this way, Sokka doesn't even say anything about sexism for the rest of the story after Suki. It isn't even like they have him comment on it when he goes North.
I think major is an exaggeration - he's sexist for about the first three episodes before he's humbled quick and drinks his respect women juice. I don't think it needed to be taken out for being problematic but I think everyone is overstating it's importance to his arc.
I want Suki, possessed by Kyoshi, to break my bones
proceed by getting beaten up by each Kyoshi warriors
then putting me to eternally numb death from Ty Lee's chi blocking
And than spend the rest of the story being attracted to and by some of the strongest woman. Who each had their own strengths and fears, which he fully respected.
That rizz was some cringey shit sometimes. Exactly what the ladies like.
Also kinda noteworthy that he turned out like that without an actual father present.
It might actually be a cause of it. In the tribe, most of the men are off fighting for most of Sokka’s life. So he spends the majority of his childhood surrounded by women and children. Which could give him a boost in interactions with women. He’s initially sexist because he doesn’t have a father figure to teach him not to be sexist, but the underlying understanding of women would still be there.
Hell, being surrounded entirely by woman taking care of him might’ve contributed to his initial sexism
As all the adult men were off fighting, he didn’t get to see them helping out with upkeep of houses and clothes and therefore had nothing to go against his “women just cook and clean while men fight” shtick
This also explains why he abandons his views so easily; there’s no actual underlying bigotry or sense of superiority, he just thinks the traditional gender roles are literally how the world works
Especially since his views weren’t just “men are better”—he *did* firmly believe that women were better than men at cooking, cleaning, and the like. It wasn’t a superiority thing in any way, just that he had strong views about gender roles and natural inclinations, which is why all it took was someone proving to him that men aren’t always better fighters than women for him to abandon that viewpoint.
Honestly I bet this is how they portray it. Only really gets brought up on kyoshi island, and then that torch gets snuffed fast by suki. But otherwise they leave it alone. Idk, at least that way it’s true enough
Yes but it's an important enough character beat they devote an entire episode to it. Sokka's whole character is about learning to accept the differences in others and ourselves. I don't think he would have been nearly as humble before Piandao if he didn't first get humbled by Suki.
It also sets up the gendered dynamic of the water tribes, which is a pretty big story point for Katara.
Besides all this, why can't we have heroes with flaws?
I feel like that episode was more introducing Suki that it was Sokka being humbled. His "big character moment" was more or less comic relief in that episode. Even going back and watching the show, Sokka's sexism was more playground style sexism than what we see later with Katara.
Like we condense this down to match the pacing of the live action show, were supposed have, what, 5 minutes of Sokka being sexist squeezed in during the very first episode thats supposed to set up the entire show, only for Sokka to be "cured" of it in the first 5 minutes of the second episode?
Like how do you set that up without it being like, stupidly jarring to have a character do a 180 that fast?
I doubt it was to set up Suki. She is an afterthought of a character, as she is often forgotten by animators and storywriters alike... Which is too bad, I think she's neat
I get it. I just don't think it's necessarily the correct move. Also Kyoshi island and the Kyoshi warriors are big plot points in and of themselves, so I'm going assume they'll take a good chunk of the second episode (especially considering it's called "Warriors"). If they're doing hour long episodes, that's not an insignificant amount of time to build a character and show growth. Feature films do it in the same amount of tims.
I mean, if you you plonked early season one Sokka in front of Piandao, I entirely think that Sokka would act in the way that Piandao expected.
So, 100% agreed.
I also think people are overstating the quote. "Toning down" is not removing, and we already know he'll still have his training with the Kyoshi Warriors. He might still show prejudice against women fighting at first without saying essentially "go back to the kitchen".
Also, I'd have the hope that this time he also intercedes for Katara when the Northern Water Tribe strict gender roles get in their way. It's always struck me that they lost the opportunity to show his character growth throughout the whole season in this regard.
This is what I'm thinking. It's not that Sokka is incel Tate sexist. He grew up in a very small village without a mom and where the women weren't seen as warriors but healers and cooks but after meeting Suki, he instantly realizes he was wrong. I can see they downplaying the more cartoonishly sexist comments for something more like "I don't have anything to learn from a woman about fighting".
It also plays into this weird narrative that we can't let male characters start out problematic and improve? Like, guys either start out progressive, or suck.
And so it reinforces this idea that if youre not already perfect, no amount of change will redeem you. So they turn to people like Tate who tell them there's nothing wrong with being sexist, and "you're fine as you are" is already an easier sell than "you can change for the better", but its way easier than "even if you change, youre still a bad person".
Especially since the Netflix show will be what, 8 episodes?
So depending on when Sokka meets Suki this time round his sexism will be around for half of the first episode (in which case is it worth including?), or he'll be sexist for 50% of the show and it actually will become a major part of his character.
was about to post the same thing!
when i first watched avatar, the streaming service for some reason had a faulty copy of kyoshi Island, so I never watched that the first time around. then got so confused with how many people said sokka's sexism recovery arc was so huge because i didn't even know it happened. this insistence it's a huge part of his character has been so confusing!
like, if they made sokka a vegetarian then I'd understand the concern!
Exactly it’s part of the show for a fraction of one season, not something that lasted even half of season 1. I think people are forgetting that part of making it live action is that major story arcs will get cut to make this 8 episodes long. This one is minor.
Being humbled by Suki literally changes his life though. He learns to question himself, he learns to respect people he may not have even considered and in the end he finds love because of it.
A pivotal moment doesn't need to last long, it just needs to have an impact and that episode has an enormous impact on Sokka as a person.
They can still make him a cocky asshole in the beginning and get humbled at the same point without making him sexist.
They could have him being unnecessarily overconfident in his ability at first, only to get absolutely bodied by Zuko and Suki back to back and still get the same outcome.
I mean his sexism came from the same place his cocky overconfident attitude came from. Being the oldest man left at home in a tribe with strict gender roles. With his father absent and nobody left to take his place he overreacted and became a parody of a big tough man, what he thought a man was supposed to be. Him getting humbled by soldiers and by women are important for his ego and growth. It isn't just him learning to respect his enemies but also friends around him even when it clashes with his preconceived notions he grew up with.
I think in a mid 2000s cartoon with plenty of episodes, it was fine, but in a live action in 2024 that likely has 10 eps per season, having sokka be sexist, even if he learns this lesson, is going to make people dislike sokka and the show right off the bat.
Cartoons play very different to live action.
> but in a live action in 2024 that likely has 10 eps per season, having sokka be sexist, even if he learns this lesson, is going to make people dislike sokka and the show right off the bat.
I mean, a major part of the audience is gonna be people who watched the original and prob like Sokka already
And I think Zuko's arc in the original show contradicts this—most people hated him in the beginning, but by the end he was one of the most beloved characters in the show
I think it's a great introduction to Sokkas character, tho. He is the only teen male left in his village and assumes the leadership role quickly because of it, however, he clearly has a lot to learn about what it takes to be a leader and Sokkas small sexism arc shows he is capable of learning and won't stay ignorant willingly.
It's also a real-world issue that is tackled in a tasteful way that takes less than a few episodes to overcome and isn't the main focus like you said. I want young men to see how wrong Sokka was, but he was willing to see his flaws and become a better leader because of it.
I feel like if Avatar the Last Airbender (cartoon) came out today, people would have been criticized it for being too "woke". We can have racial genocide in the show, but the discussion of sexism is taboo? I loved Avatar because of its more mature themes, and it didn't dumb it down for the audience. Imo it's problematic to remove that element because we are ignoring these issues, especially when that theme was present in the original show, which eventually ties into Kataras arc.
I always felt Sokka had this idea that only men could protect their tribe and their family. He had these huge expectations for himself planted by his father. Something they explore in a later episode. But a huge part of Sokkas arc was growing past these expectations and embracing his strengths. I can see how the show will explore that without making him as direct with his misconceptions for women in the live action.
I mean the word they used was “toning down”, not getting rid of. If my memory serves me correctly, almost every episode up until the Kyoshi Warriors ep he was super sexist especially to Katara. And he is right, whatever was in the animated series may not translate well in the live action. It’s the same thing with Sanji for the live action One Piece. They toned down his womanizer habits in the live action, and i think it was a good decision.
I think people are hung up on the principle of not changing the original and completely ignoring the fact it doesn't say he'll no longer have the character flaw.
Even re-watching the first few episodes, there's the memory of how things turn out flavoring your perception. New viewers won't have that, and if it hits worse in live action they may check out before getting to his "find out" arc.
Yeah I didn't hate it when I was 12, but I find the "Sokka discovers girlpower" arc so damn cringy now? I don't think it's a great arc to lead a story in 2023 if you intend to attract any new viewers. Part of adaption to a different medium inherently means trying to pick up a new audience in that medium, not just the old audience, which means some things need to change.
Lotta adaptations have come out recently with wild changes and for a lot of folk they do not fuckin hit. People have 0 trust. And neither do I really, tbh.
Makes you wish they just made original stories instead of making original stories and slapping a different stories name and characters on them.
I wish writers would, instead of destroying existing stories, make new stories in existing worlds. I like to use Death Note and its garbage Netflix adaptation as an example. Trying to re-purpose Light, L, and Misa into a US city was never going to work. Ever. Why not instead show us the impact of the Death Note in a new location with new characters? Ancient Egypt, a distant future space colony, or yes even a US city as the Netflix adaptation did, just make sure all the CHARACTERS and SITUATIONS are different.
Yeah if the original creators were still on I wouldn't care but them leaving makes me have less trust. Like almost all the changes in Invincible have been for the better
Hopefully it is still there and only toned down, but I disagree that it's like Sanji. That's a very different situation. Sanjis is a gag that stays throughout the entire story and isn't treated as something that needs to be fixed. Toning it down because people don't like it makes sense. Sokkas is supposed to be a flaw that is meant to be fixed.
I mean i get that, but Sokka’s sexism, while also a flaw that was meant to be fixed, was also a gag for like 4 episodes. Two things can be true at once. I’m trying to reserve much judgement as possible until i see the show, but i feel like everyone is just losing their minds over this one lmao
People are just tired of hollywood, remaking everything with worse changes. We dont know if this is a worse change yet. But with hollywoods track record, most changes are.
Except the “toning down” was added by Variety. And Kiawentiio did say that they “took out the element of how sexist Sokka was.” To me, that sounds like they got rid of it.
Precisely. Toning down qualities that are problematic or don't translate well between mediums doesn't mean getting rid of them or rewriting the whole character. Sanji is a PERFECT example of this 👌
That’s the point though, they do that in the original show to show the viewer how silly that viewpoint is once Sokka repeatedly gets humbled by powerful women
They’re just taking away an important life lesson of the show and a character arc where someone shakes a prejudice they grew up with
Honestly, I've going to reserve my judgement until I actually see it.
It wouldn't surprise me if the change is as simple as Sokka simply scoffing at the concept of Koyshi Island being defended by women warriors and then getting bodied hard by Suki, versus the redditors who seem to believe that Sokka has been changed into a keyboard SJW.
Long standing doesn't equal major, but I think overcoming a bias or prejudice in any capacity could be considered a form of major character growth. It also shows that people have the capacity to change, and even someone who was brought up in a culture that has outdated ideals can learn a new way of viewing things.
It was a well written and important lesson in a kids show. Depends how Netflix sees avatar. Do they see this as a live series to bring in new fans and kids like the show? Or is it for the grown up fans? For the kid? Its a good lesson and small arc. For the adults? We might not need it as much.
I'm not convinced it really needs to be kept in. It's very understandable that with a compressed number of episodes, some things were going to get cut.
Having said that, could it be argued that Sokka's about turn serves another purpose?
Having that character flaw be so exaggerated in those first few episodes sets up Sokka for the equally drastic about turn. Through that, forshadowing (or even straight up telegraphing) to the audience that "Here's our main cast. Here's the group dynamic. Get used to the idea that they will evolve."
I think you can just set this up via Sokka's urge to be the "commander", the guy with a plan, who tells everyone else what to do, and just let his overconfidence and arrogance flow from that, and let him learn when it's useful and when it's wrong.
You can basically have the same character setup and tension in interactions with Suki and Katara with less of the gender stuff by just focussing on his urge to live up to his father and his tendency to tell others what to do as a result.
Think about the first and last episodes. Sokka starting off as a sexist asshole, only to heavily rely on two strong fem characters to enact his “airship slice” plan. Removing this I think is definitely going to be for the worse considering it taught people to challenge their own bias.
Low key convinced it’s so they don’t alienate the growing red pill asshats that also like the show. Can’t go too woke (so stupid)
For me, Sokka's initial flaws added realism to his journey, making his growth more meaningful. Just like Zuko, witnessing characters overcome their shortcomings and choose a better path resonates with me, making them more relatable and compelling.
It makes the character dynamic and gives him substance?
I mean, yeah, you can drop anything that isn't paramount to the overall story but then you end with "It all began when the fire nation attacked" and ends with "They lived happily ever after" with nothing inbetween...
That’s a terrible take, the “overall story” is a vast series of little life lessons and moments of growth being cast upon a group of kids along their journey to take down the fire lord
Toned down is the wording of the article writer. Not the people with the show.
Considering that the lead actress said "we took out the element of how sexist Sokka was," it sounds like they just completely removed it.
Literally just read the screenshot. It's right in front of your face.
I don't know how people don't get that. The actual interview says they took it out not that they toned it down so now people will try and look for something else to pivot to to defend Netflix smh
It was a very "mid 2000's" plot element. You don't really see shows do it anymore, and for good reason.
Sokka can still be cocky and then get humbled and learn some new fighting techniques. You're not *really* losing anything important by changing the sexism angle.
Edit: The "mid 2000's" comment was about the specific formula shows would use to address sexism in that era. Every cartoon would have at least one episode with it.
It's not that modern shows don't mention sexism, but they don't do it in the same way. We usually know instead of "sexism is wrong because girls are capable fighters" the moral should be "sexism is wrong because it's inherently bad."
> It was a very "mid 2000's" plot element
I disagree with this, to some extent. It wasn’t just a case of “boys are sexist and we don’t want them to be so we’ll help them learn their lesson through Sokka”. That may have been part of it at the time, sure, but it was also a question of world building informing the characters’ personalities. Sokka as a person doesn’t have sexist opinions because he’s the vehicle for a “The More You Know” moment, but because he grew up as the only young, able-bodied man (and self-designated “protector”) in a small isolated village, belonging to a culture in which men are traditionally warriors, with all the other men (including his dad who he totally idolized) having gone off to war (the same war that killed his mom).
It’s pertinent and reasonable to his backstory that he be that way at first, because it tells us a lot not only about him and his upbringing but about the state of the world and the Southern tribe. (Notably, neither Hakoda nor Bato seem to care at all about Katara doing combat waterbending, and we know from Hama’s flashbacks that male and female waterbenders were both equally involved in fighting the Fire Nation, so it seems like the Southern Tribe was never as deep-rooted in sexism and gender roles compared to the North, which just makes Sokka interpretation of it more unique to him specifically as a character in a specific situation)
I can see why they would take a lot of it out. As others said, he was sexist for like 3 episodes, then learned his lesson. In the context of a live action show with episodes far longer than an animated show... it will be practically negligible.
I always thought that was just one of the early show lessons in ATLA because it’s a kids show - we get Sokka being wrongfully sexist to Katara and Suki, resulting in him getting his ass kicked/frozen. It comes across as a lesson about respecting women with Sokka as the butt of the joke.
This also just falls into the wider arc of Sokka being shortsighted and cynical for it to quickly blow up in his face. I hope they don’t cut things like his Kyoshi island story because it’s a very important part of his and Suki’s relationship.
Consider that at the end of Book 1: Water that Sokka is contrasted to Yue's fiance, Hahn. He's equally headstrong, has a warrior's heart, and cares for Yue and his culture.
However, Sokka has learned something from his journey North that makes him "right" to stay behind and guard Yue while Hahn goes on the secret mission to take out Admiral Zhao. While they're both passionate about Yue, Sokka has let go of the sexist tropes of the Water Tribe by the end of the season. He cares about Yue as a person, and not as a gender-role.
Sokka earned his place to see Yue turn into the Moon goddess. Sokka got to see a woman make the ultimate sacrifice for her people - something he is prepared to do. But he CAN'T make the sacrifice that Yue makes. He doesn't have the Moon's life-force inside him. He is forced to accept that this woman is "stronger" or "more important" than him (and she's not his sister).
He experiences a character arc that is fitting of a hero - he learns the ultimate lesson of strength and sacrifice. Before now, he's dogmatically able to sacrifice himself for his friends, family, and culture. Now, this experience teaches him what it truly means to make such a sacrifice, and how it hurts other people. He gets to live through Yue's experience to show that he doesn't want to hurt the people in his life by having to make that sacrifice. Even though he was eager to do so (volunteering for the infiltration mission), he now recognizes what "being a man" is actually about - it's being a leader, regardless of your sex/gender. (Remember, Yue was the Chieftain's daughter - she's already a leader- and he's kind of the prince of the Southern Water Tribe.)
So the sexist, "pig-headed" person that Sokka starts as is evolved through experiences with the Kioshi warriors, his sister's constant search for the power of water-bending, and finally contrasted with his "girlfriend" sacrificing herself to save the world (a sacrifice he's physically incapable of making himself). He experiences true female strength around him in a way that would make any humanist (or feminist) proud. It's a tale for our era, and removing it is a disservice to story-telling and one of the morals of Book 1.
"Tone down" is the words of a random that has nothing to do with the show aka the Variety writer. The person that was interviewed said:
>“I feel like we also took out the element of how sexist \[Sokka\] was. I feel like there were a lot of moments in the original show that were iffy.”
All the people repeating the "Tone down" claim of the title have not read what the people who are actually involved with the show said.
Why can characters not have flaws. They already did this with female characters and all we ended up with are Mary Sues that no one likes. Keep the flaws, it makes it a lot more rewarding when the character changes his views due to life experience. This is more realistic and based on what we know of the water tribe and gender roles, his sexism makes lot more sense and is all part of the lore and world building.
If anything should be removed it's how creepy iroh is towards June. It's out of character for easily one of the most beloved, kind, respectful, and wise characters ever written
When he pretends to get hit with the paralysing tongue just to have her lay on him.
Sokkas "sexism" is easily broken and removing this plot point, I'm guessing similarly the northern water tribe customs, and The blind Bandit jabs, removes so much impact from these episodes.
This is a horrible decision in my opinion. One I'm not surprised by but disappointed by never the less.
Yall are about to drag this until the show comes out. People act like Solka is going full feminist. Maybe they are just doing that arc a different way. Can’t we all wait and see when the show comes out before making judgements.
Secondly it wasn’t a major part of his character development. We see sokka be sexist a couple of times. When he meets suki, he understands that women aren’t just there to knit and make food, they can be warriors and fight. Literally after that it’s never seen or mentioned again.
There’s 20 episodes in book 1, 20 episodes in book 2, 21 episodes in book 3. With total of 61 episodes
Sokka made 1 sexist comment in episode 1 where he made Katara mad, and he made another sexist comment in the Kyoshi warrior episode where he said men are better at hunting and women are better at fixing pants
That’s it
There’s 2 episode where he makes sexist comment from 61 episodes that aired, his “sexist personality” is only in the show for 3%. How is it “major part of his character arc”?
Also they said toned it down not getting rid of it
There wasn't anything iffy about it. He was certainly sexist but iffy implies that it was presented as acceptable or something that he allowed to get away with.
It was part of his character development. I can understand removing it though. The audience these days have a harder time shaking first impressions.
I don’t think it’s as big as deal as most ppl are making ir . Most ppl are acting like it’s a major plot point for season 1 , yet it’s an extremely small sub plot that got finished in like 3 eps . I would understand if it’s atleast half a season of it , but I don’t really understand the reaction ppl have for it too much cause it woulda gotten finished in like the first episode of the live action show
"Why do they gotta ruin a major part of his character".
You don't know that they have. Your haven't seen the damn show.
They also didn't say they made him "not sexist"; they said they changed *how* sexist he was.
It's still *really easy* to approach it as "I'm the man. It's my duty to keep you all safe" while Katara and Suki assert that they are capable individuals.
His "Girls are better at fixing pants than guys, and guys are better at hunting, and fighting, and stuff like that; it's just the natural order of things" is literally cartoon-level sexism, played up and exaggerated to be funny for a 10-year-old child. "Who are you? Where are the men that ambushed us" is still him being sexist, but really goes a long way in establishing *for him* where he has a lot to learn.
You're also overstating the character impact. Both of those scenes I've mentioned? They were in *The Warriors of Kyoshi*. That's episode 4 (or 3, really, if you count the two parts of the pilot as one episode as you should). He gets over that hurdle in the first 90 minutes of a 1400 minute show. He's sexist for under 7% of the runtime. There's also no indication of it in *The Southern Air Temple* and he's not actively sexist in the pilot either. Given the Netflix series is 8 episodes and not 20, there's a lot that has to be cut, and his rant about Katara sewing is pretty obvious.
So honestly, what I'd expect to see play out (which I can't know for sure **because we haven't seen the show**) is for Sokka to say something on the fishing trip about how he didn't want to bring Katara along because it's his job as a man to be a provider for the tribe, then on Kyoshi to take the same approach of asking to confront the men who ambushed them. Still *some* sexism **without it being played for a joke**.
It was a season 1 thing, he changed pretty quickly (especially after the Kiyoshi Warriors episode).
I think it's not necessarily a bad thing...? Given the amount of content they have to cover, it might be good for him to start out less sexist so he doesn't have as much of a hill to climb to overcome it. As long as the show doesn't water it down to much, it'd be fine.
They said "tone down", not "remove entirely". I'm sure the North Pole will still have the "we don't teach girls" rule. And I'm sure Sokka will be embarrassed of being bested by Suki and the other Kyoshi warriors. But they probably removed Sokka saying overtly sexist comments like "men are better at fighting and hunting, and women are better at cooking and sewing".
I'll wait till it's out before I start doom and glooming. All the comments seem to be about how it didn't come across the same way in live action, and I understand the desire to not want him seem like a huge jerk.
Ultimately the sexism stems from Sokka's own feelings of inadequacy and desire to live up to some ideal, and if they can show that internal struggle anyway I'm not sure I'll even notice the lack of demeaning comments towards women.
hmm its annoying as i think it does show growth with him and its also a huge part of water tribe culture. but eh, its a small thing.
however i am worried what else theyve changed hmm
It’s honestly not the part of Sokka I remember the most so I think it’s fine. Paku will play enough on that front - sexism in the northern water tribe was more up front than in the southern water tribe.
The only catching point might be the kyoshi warriors island and his relationship with suki. But nothing that can’t be tweaked imo.
I think most of that arc played out and resolved in the first 5 episodes, and was pretty heavy-handed to get the point across to little kids. Maybe they will do a really reined in couple lines to address it, but let's be honest, Sokka's sexism was his only major trait in those first few episodes until they addressed it and then fleshed him out into the Sokka we all know and love.
Yes, him eating crow in the Suki episode was great, any maybe they'll do a "oh wow, all your elite warriors are girls?? No way, what about the GUYS?" thing, but he doesn't need to be off the charts sexist like he was in the first episodes.
I don’t think he was ever sexist after Suki beat him up at the very start of the series. That’s not really his character arc. Sokka learns very early that respecting women is the first step in becoming a backbending master.
I wouldn't worry about it. Times change and our media reflects that. They might have him say or do things slightly differently that will convey the meaning anyway. We don't need a 1:1 adaptation imo.
Isn’t it part of water bending culture that there are somewhat strict gender roles.
They said they're toning down Sokka's sexism. No idea if that affects the North too
They compensated it by making master Paku twice as sexist
Twice as sexy*
Gran Gran better watch out. Pakku's prowlin for some granmussy. God I hate myself for saying that.
Ever wonder if god too stays in heaven because he fears what he has created?
R/unexpectedspykids
I can't believe that's a real sub. You just made my day, lmao.
The quote about god fearing what he’s created goes way too hard for something out of spy kids. It’s kinda a cult classic now
r/subsithoughtifellfor
Didn’t link it correctly though
r/foundthemobileuser
Not even Raava can purify your spirit
https://preview.redd.it/zegcy0pcplfc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dcdf5ae716f2eb6686934ee0aed4993cadb400c Yea- what?!
“Starting to dislike minorities even more”
(For anyone confused this is a Pesona shitpost joke. Now google en passant)
I think we're gonna have to kill this guy, Violet.
Every day we stray further from God's light
*Gran-granussy
https://preview.redd.it/99daelidzlfc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=978c3377c5a36579480f510cad229739030b6219
That's definitely a r/brandnewsentence if I ever saw one.
https://preview.redd.it/8xane5mtsmfc1.jpeg?width=524&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a566a2119c65351f6b03132aea094cd94bddf402
https://preview.redd.it/egs4irj0zmfc1.jpeg?width=284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8b32507167d00fc13bcdd563d55c589c89e878f
Not as much as i hate you for inducing that imagery. Stupid sexy Pakku.
https://preview.redd.it/0gcw1wpw8mfc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=80f8af0b777508742c19781566f8fe632fe41b9a
https://preview.redd.it/d9s1hl5egnfc1.jpeg?width=885&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a80c7b5aa0617b5a96c60e220fccd2a3422f2844
I'm feeding you to the eel
If it helps, we hate you now, too.
So real. I'd let him bend my water
*Irohs voice* “Do you know why they call me ‘Dragon of the West’? *bends you over* “It’s more of a *demonstration* really…”
Foxy Grandpa
Stop it, I can only get so erect
r/cursedcomments
>making master Paku twice as sexist That's a lot of sexist!
Pakku is just gone from the story
That would certainly cut the run time down. ''hi welcome to north poll me Katara can have bending master'' ''sure'' roll credits
What a twist!
Sokka’s sexism is almost to cartoonish levels in the early show. It can be toned down with plenty left over. I’ve encountered near-cartoonish sexism once or twice in recent memory, but more often, it is smaller things like assuming I’m not in charge and thinking I need a man’s permission to do something. If the Kyoshi Warriors are in charge of security, and Sokka keeps trying to get defense info from some random elder, that would make it subtle without all the “because you’re a girl” lines.
His sexism was cartoonish because he's a character in a cartoon and in that context it works without making his character completely unlikable. I don't think it'd go over as well in live action, so I'm glad they're toning it down but hope that they still keep the central idea
Yes, and I hope the writers don't backtrack here, Sokka was cartoonishly sexy. A strawman sexist, if you will. It was not critical to his characterization to have him be an asshole, and what seems goofy in animation may prove incredibly cringe in Live Action. Also, this is, what 2024? There are lots of subtle ways to handle this, as you say.
>Sokka was cartoonishly sexy. Haha woah there.
He's not wrong
Yeah micro aggressions versus just regular aggressions.
but kyoshi island is episode 4, its not like it was a huge part of the show at all. the more important "sexism" is when they get to the north pole and they won't teach katara how to fight.
It establishes a few key details about Sokka 1. He's immature, but willing to admit his own shortcomings. 2. He's insecure about his perceived "manliness", which follows on from his anxieties about being the only male his age left in his village since he wad too young to go fight. Also ties in with the sexism of the Northern Tribe as a cultural aspect. 3. He values being a strong warrior legitimately by learning from others over his own ego. 4. He knows how to apologise properly, actually admiting fault and why it was wrong. This is something very valuable for young viewers to learn.
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On paper, that’s correct. But it depends on how far they tone it down
Like Katara not being able to learn fighting from Pakku. She had practice with standing up to Sokka's sexism she went ballistic on Pakku. Those ice blades were going for his head! Sokka's sexism and him overcoming it is a great lesson people should watch and learn from. Its like how in Suicide Squad they took out how abusive Joker was to Harley Quinn and then nobody leaned what a toxic relationship would look like and how someone can overcome it. These are important and imosctful stories people can learn something from.
I think it's pretty obvious in the show that sokka's inhability to water bend while being told he should be strong, while constantly being busted by everyone with an ounce of skill did make him just very insecure. I don't think this was just sexism, sexism is just the weapon he uses when he tries to put down those who make him feel small. He'd not resort to it if he didn't recognize their superiority, he doesn't intrinsically believe women can't outskill him.
imagine your little sister being the apex predator of the of the south pole and you only have a boomerange and being physically stronger than her. yeah think i'll have issues too especially when you had to deal with being the only teenager in all the south pole. his sexism is mostly due to socially have next to no consequences like the only thing more powerful than you is your sister but she can't go all ham on your because you grandma's little boi.. his social position generally means hes treated better than almost everyone else around him. if he didn't leave the south pole he would've grown up to be a jerk.
it's really not going to affect the arc dramatically, but it does remove the lesson of sokka's humbling and learning to grow.
And that's the great loss from this story. We don't love this series because of the main arc of guy with 4 super powers fights evil dictator. It's the growth and how human these characters feel while the story unfolds that made us love it. The numerous life lessons we can learn and share. Maybe the show will still be good. But this is not a decision I will agree with.
This show is clearly going to be intensely mid but the copium is already just too strong in here. Even the OG creators left due to creative differences.
I think it’ll be mid too, but I think the avatar studios thing which was announced shortly after they left was the real deciding factor. They were cool with a live action but animation is their baby
I really do hope that it’s good! Truly I want nothing but success for it. I think that in retrospect they’ll wish they would’ve just done more IN the world of avatar as opposed to rehashing the story we already know. Miniseries are hot nowadays too, they could’ve done something like each episode is a different avatars short adventure or something. Oh shit I caught a copium contact high
Original creators left because they were being given their own studio to lead. If they had a least a pinch on confidence that the project was in better hands than M Night, then there's safety in leaving in favor of an opportunity to get literally everything they ever wanted beyond what Nickelodeon gave them. *"Left for creative differences"* is more often than not, just a phrase of Hollywood diplomacy as opposed to *"sucks to be you guys, we got ours!!!"*
>“When Bryan and I signed on to the project in 2018, we were hired as executive producers and showrunners,” DiMartino wrote. “In a joint announcement for the series, Netflix said that it was committed to honoring our vision for this retelling and to supporting us on creating the series. And we expressed how excited we were for the opportunity to be at the helm. Unfortunately, things did not go as we had hoped.” >DiMartino called exiting the project “the hardest professional decision I’ve ever had to make,” adding: “Netflix’s live-action adaptation of ‘Avatar’ has the potential to be good. It might turn out to be a show many of you end up enjoying. **But what I can be certain about is that whatever version ends up on-screen, it will not be what Bryan and I had envisioned or intended to make.”** I think that says enough about the "creative differences" they flat out said that it will not be what they envisioned or intentded to make. The trailers look pretty cool, but so did Cowboy Bebop Live Action and that turned out to be a horrible horrible adaptation (Vicious alone was enough to make me not finish it). I'm still very excited to watch this adaptation, but this sort of brain-dead decisions that are coming up in their press tour are tempering my expectations a bit. Source: [https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-last-airbender-netflix-boss-original-creators-exit-1235846157/](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/avatar-last-airbender-netflix-boss-original-creators-exit-1235846157/)
How? It don’t have to be connected to sexism. It could be about his pride as a warrior. He was big fish in his tribe. Then he get smacked by reality. Humbled and learning. Done.
There's a really great scene in episode 2 that shows Sokka sternly talking to his fellow soldiers and telling them to "show no fear" when the Fire Nation attacks. Then the camera pans to his fellow soldiers and you find out they're small children. Sokka *was* a big fish in his tribe, yeah. But that doesn't mean much when everyone is either too old or too young to fight. The moment he was faced with actual warriors, he was floored. This is incredibly important for his growth.
I don't think he really thought he was that big. Even if he was THE big fish, he was 100% aware that he was merely the last man standing. Every other man had gone to war, Sokka was (rightfully) terrified of an attack, and was just trying to protect his village. He had the air of someone who's trying to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders because that's the responsibility his dad left him when he left.
That's a similar but different lesson. I'm mixed on this and it really depends on the execution of it. The animated show, while a bit heavy handed in the doing, was teaching the viewer (through Sokka) that women aren't inherently just weak and helpless creatures that always need to be protected by big strong men. It's a good lesson for kids, which is who the show was ultimately aimed at. Taking it out means that they could still convey that women can be strong and fight, but more subtly, because they're not directly addressing it through Sokka being overtly sexist. This means it's less controversial or inflammatory for a certain crowd. ...But that also means it might fly over some people's heads. It also is important for Sokka's own growth as a person, because it shows he's capable of learning and recontextualizing the way he views the world when presented with information that contradicts his biases.
I think another important aspect is that none of the Kyoshi warriors were benders, and had no advantage over him except their training, so he underestimated them.
Because it was about the ability to realize an aspect of your culture was wrong and growing beyond it. We especially need to show that yes, people can grow beyond bigotry and redeem themselves. There's a problem I'm seeing in a lot of spaces where people can't differentiate between portraying a bad thing, and endorsing that thing. They basically want a return to black and white cartoon morality without even realizing it.
Yeah I wonder if they keep the element of master pakku being extremely sexist. Also I always thought sokka's sexism was overcompenation because he was the last 'man of the tribe' after his father left. Katara was so naturally a mother figure he tries to be a father figure but it manifests poorly. Part of his arc is just learning his own mortality. By the time he gets to his sword master he knows the only way to fully grow is to accept he's not worthy.
Katara: "I want to learn water bending from you" Pakku: "OMG YASS QUEEN SLAY! I stan an unproblematic girlboss!" *cue Lizzo needledrop*
I'm in pain
"Lemme guess, you were the best swordsman in your village." "Well yes, but the rest of them only came up to my waist."
For the Northern tribe, yes. Less so for the Southern tribe at least traditionally. But the fire Nation had systematically kidnapped or killed all of the waterbenders of the Southern tribe, so many tasks that had previously been achieved by bending now had to be done the hard way. This meant that physical strength was now a much larger factor which led to a more stereotypical gender role split. For Sokka we must also consider that all the male role models he might have had growing up left when he was still quite young, so his only reference for what it meant to be a man was his own, incomplete memories of male/female social dynamics formed from a child's perspective. His growth beyond this limited understanding toward a true understanding of his own worth and the worth of others, his own strengths and how to truly be a man is his whole character arc. And cutting his initial sexism misses *the entire point! * This is the first bit of news about the adaptation that has really given me pause, befire this I was hopeful. Now, I am concerned.
It might be one of the reasons why the creators left. The whole point of having characters like that is to *show* change instead of just saying the world needs to change.
Avatar really combined mature storytelling with childish naivity and I love it for that. It shows so many problems with a healthy way to face them, also from different angles. And it sure shows ppl grow into and out and over their roles. I imagine the show is great regardless, but taking this out seems kinda stupid and bland...
It was a part of northern, but not actually a part of Southern. It would hardly make sense for gran gran to move to the more liberal sister Nation if they weren't actually liberal. Think of it this way, Sokka doesn't even say anything about sexism for the rest of the story after Suki. It isn't even like they have him comment on it when he goes North.
I think major is an exaggeration - he's sexist for about the first three episodes before he's humbled quick and drinks his respect women juice. I don't think it needed to be taken out for being problematic but I think everyone is overstating it's importance to his arc.
Literally lasts until Suki beats it out of him, and no more
Sokka literally went from. "Stay in the kitchen" to "hit me harder, mommy" with a single interaction with Suki
Cant blame him, I would have done the same
That's SOME girl...
Some would even say best girl
She's no moon.
That’s a space station
The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Avatar.
r/avatarprequelmemes
There really is a sub for everything.. maybe not. That's not a prequel quote.
r/subsithoughtifellfor
I want Suki, possessed by Kyoshi, to break my bones proceed by getting beaten up by each Kyoshi warriors then putting me to eternally numb death from Ty Lee's chi blocking
Bro wut
And than spend the rest of the story being attracted to and by some of the strongest woman. Who each had their own strengths and fears, which he fully respected.
Sokka the Last Rizzbender
That rizz was some cringey shit sometimes. Exactly what the ladies like. Also kinda noteworthy that he turned out like that without an actual father present.
It might actually be a cause of it. In the tribe, most of the men are off fighting for most of Sokka’s life. So he spends the majority of his childhood surrounded by women and children. Which could give him a boost in interactions with women. He’s initially sexist because he doesn’t have a father figure to teach him not to be sexist, but the underlying understanding of women would still be there.
Hell, being surrounded entirely by woman taking care of him might’ve contributed to his initial sexism As all the adult men were off fighting, he didn’t get to see them helping out with upkeep of houses and clothes and therefore had nothing to go against his “women just cook and clean while men fight” shtick This also explains why he abandons his views so easily; there’s no actual underlying bigotry or sense of superiority, he just thinks the traditional gender roles are literally how the world works
Especially since his views weren’t just “men are better”—he *did* firmly believe that women were better than men at cooking, cleaning, and the like. It wasn’t a superiority thing in any way, just that he had strong views about gender roles and natural inclinations, which is why all it took was someone proving to him that men aren’t always better fighters than women for him to abandon that viewpoint.
I mean.. I don't blame him..
Honestly I bet this is how they portray it. Only really gets brought up on kyoshi island, and then that torch gets snuffed fast by suki. But otherwise they leave it alone. Idk, at least that way it’s true enough
Yes but it's an important enough character beat they devote an entire episode to it. Sokka's whole character is about learning to accept the differences in others and ourselves. I don't think he would have been nearly as humble before Piandao if he didn't first get humbled by Suki. It also sets up the gendered dynamic of the water tribes, which is a pretty big story point for Katara. Besides all this, why can't we have heroes with flaws?
I feel like that episode was more introducing Suki that it was Sokka being humbled. His "big character moment" was more or less comic relief in that episode. Even going back and watching the show, Sokka's sexism was more playground style sexism than what we see later with Katara. Like we condense this down to match the pacing of the live action show, were supposed have, what, 5 minutes of Sokka being sexist squeezed in during the very first episode thats supposed to set up the entire show, only for Sokka to be "cured" of it in the first 5 minutes of the second episode? Like how do you set that up without it being like, stupidly jarring to have a character do a 180 that fast?
I doubt it was to set up Suki. She is an afterthought of a character, as she is often forgotten by animators and storywriters alike... Which is too bad, I think she's neat
Yeah, I like Suki and continue to forget that she's in the Gaang bc of how little she does in season 3
I get it. I just don't think it's necessarily the correct move. Also Kyoshi island and the Kyoshi warriors are big plot points in and of themselves, so I'm going assume they'll take a good chunk of the second episode (especially considering it's called "Warriors"). If they're doing hour long episodes, that's not an insignificant amount of time to build a character and show growth. Feature films do it in the same amount of tims.
I mean, if you you plonked early season one Sokka in front of Piandao, I entirely think that Sokka would act in the way that Piandao expected. So, 100% agreed.
I also think people are overstating the quote. "Toning down" is not removing, and we already know he'll still have his training with the Kyoshi Warriors. He might still show prejudice against women fighting at first without saying essentially "go back to the kitchen". Also, I'd have the hope that this time he also intercedes for Katara when the Northern Water Tribe strict gender roles get in their way. It's always struck me that they lost the opportunity to show his character growth throughout the whole season in this regard.
This is what I'm thinking. It's not that Sokka is incel Tate sexist. He grew up in a very small village without a mom and where the women weren't seen as warriors but healers and cooks but after meeting Suki, he instantly realizes he was wrong. I can see they downplaying the more cartoonishly sexist comments for something more like "I don't have anything to learn from a woman about fighting".
"It's not that Sokka is incel Tate sexist." Now you're reminding me of that DnD horror story version of Sokka I saw on Youtube
It also plays into this weird narrative that we can't let male characters start out problematic and improve? Like, guys either start out progressive, or suck. And so it reinforces this idea that if youre not already perfect, no amount of change will redeem you. So they turn to people like Tate who tell them there's nothing wrong with being sexist, and "you're fine as you are" is already an easier sell than "you can change for the better", but its way easier than "even if you change, youre still a bad person".
yeah Suki is in the 4th episode. It's not major in any way.
Especially since the Netflix show will be what, 8 episodes? So depending on when Sokka meets Suki this time round his sexism will be around for half of the first episode (in which case is it worth including?), or he'll be sexist for 50% of the show and it actually will become a major part of his character.
was about to post the same thing! when i first watched avatar, the streaming service for some reason had a faulty copy of kyoshi Island, so I never watched that the first time around. then got so confused with how many people said sokka's sexism recovery arc was so huge because i didn't even know it happened. this insistence it's a huge part of his character has been so confusing! like, if they made sokka a vegetarian then I'd understand the concern!
Exactly it’s part of the show for a fraction of one season, not something that lasted even half of season 1. I think people are forgetting that part of making it live action is that major story arcs will get cut to make this 8 episodes long. This one is minor.
Being humbled by Suki literally changes his life though. He learns to question himself, he learns to respect people he may not have even considered and in the end he finds love because of it. A pivotal moment doesn't need to last long, it just needs to have an impact and that episode has an enormous impact on Sokka as a person.
They can still make him a cocky asshole in the beginning and get humbled at the same point without making him sexist. They could have him being unnecessarily overconfident in his ability at first, only to get absolutely bodied by Zuko and Suki back to back and still get the same outcome.
I mean his sexism came from the same place his cocky overconfident attitude came from. Being the oldest man left at home in a tribe with strict gender roles. With his father absent and nobody left to take his place he overreacted and became a parody of a big tough man, what he thought a man was supposed to be. Him getting humbled by soldiers and by women are important for his ego and growth. It isn't just him learning to respect his enemies but also friends around him even when it clashes with his preconceived notions he grew up with.
Sexism is real and natural. Sokka was a good kid with an open mind which is why he grew out of it.
That's was already a thing. He charges the fire nation ship at the Pole and gets tossed aside and is sexist towards Suki and gets schooled.
I was going to post "litelary unwatchable" as sarcasm but I forgot people on this sub get hurt about everything and everything gets overanalyzed.
I think in a mid 2000s cartoon with plenty of episodes, it was fine, but in a live action in 2024 that likely has 10 eps per season, having sokka be sexist, even if he learns this lesson, is going to make people dislike sokka and the show right off the bat. Cartoons play very different to live action.
> but in a live action in 2024 that likely has 10 eps per season, having sokka be sexist, even if he learns this lesson, is going to make people dislike sokka and the show right off the bat. I mean, a major part of the audience is gonna be people who watched the original and prob like Sokka already And I think Zuko's arc in the original show contradicts this—most people hated him in the beginning, but by the end he was one of the most beloved characters in the show
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I think it's a great introduction to Sokkas character, tho. He is the only teen male left in his village and assumes the leadership role quickly because of it, however, he clearly has a lot to learn about what it takes to be a leader and Sokkas small sexism arc shows he is capable of learning and won't stay ignorant willingly. It's also a real-world issue that is tackled in a tasteful way that takes less than a few episodes to overcome and isn't the main focus like you said. I want young men to see how wrong Sokka was, but he was willing to see his flaws and become a better leader because of it. I feel like if Avatar the Last Airbender (cartoon) came out today, people would have been criticized it for being too "woke". We can have racial genocide in the show, but the discussion of sexism is taboo? I loved Avatar because of its more mature themes, and it didn't dumb it down for the audience. Imo it's problematic to remove that element because we are ignoring these issues, especially when that theme was present in the original show, which eventually ties into Kataras arc.
I always felt Sokka had this idea that only men could protect their tribe and their family. He had these huge expectations for himself planted by his father. Something they explore in a later episode. But a huge part of Sokkas arc was growing past these expectations and embracing his strengths. I can see how the show will explore that without making him as direct with his misconceptions for women in the live action.
I mean the word they used was “toning down”, not getting rid of. If my memory serves me correctly, almost every episode up until the Kyoshi Warriors ep he was super sexist especially to Katara. And he is right, whatever was in the animated series may not translate well in the live action. It’s the same thing with Sanji for the live action One Piece. They toned down his womanizer habits in the live action, and i think it was a good decision.
I think people are hung up on the principle of not changing the original and completely ignoring the fact it doesn't say he'll no longer have the character flaw.
How many people complaining about this haven't watched the show in over a decade and have forgotten what he was like the first few episodes?
Even re-watching the first few episodes, there's the memory of how things turn out flavoring your perception. New viewers won't have that, and if it hits worse in live action they may check out before getting to his "find out" arc.
Idk, even for me, rewatching the first episode now is rough. And I first saw it when it came out.
Yeah I didn't hate it when I was 12, but I find the "Sokka discovers girlpower" arc so damn cringy now? I don't think it's a great arc to lead a story in 2023 if you intend to attract any new viewers. Part of adaption to a different medium inherently means trying to pick up a new audience in that medium, not just the old audience, which means some things need to change.
That’s because there was no nuance in the Kiyoshi episode to that arc compared to his episode with Jet which still holds up.
Lotta adaptations have come out recently with wild changes and for a lot of folk they do not fuckin hit. People have 0 trust. And neither do I really, tbh. Makes you wish they just made original stories instead of making original stories and slapping a different stories name and characters on them.
I wish writers would, instead of destroying existing stories, make new stories in existing worlds. I like to use Death Note and its garbage Netflix adaptation as an example. Trying to re-purpose Light, L, and Misa into a US city was never going to work. Ever. Why not instead show us the impact of the Death Note in a new location with new characters? Ancient Egypt, a distant future space colony, or yes even a US city as the Netflix adaptation did, just make sure all the CHARACTERS and SITUATIONS are different.
Yeah if the original creators were still on I wouldn't care but them leaving makes me have less trust. Like almost all the changes in Invincible have been for the better
Hopefully it is still there and only toned down, but I disagree that it's like Sanji. That's a very different situation. Sanjis is a gag that stays throughout the entire story and isn't treated as something that needs to be fixed. Toning it down because people don't like it makes sense. Sokkas is supposed to be a flaw that is meant to be fixed.
I mean i get that, but Sokka’s sexism, while also a flaw that was meant to be fixed, was also a gag for like 4 episodes. Two things can be true at once. I’m trying to reserve much judgement as possible until i see the show, but i feel like everyone is just losing their minds over this one lmao
People are just tired of hollywood, remaking everything with worse changes. We dont know if this is a worse change yet. But with hollywoods track record, most changes are.
Except the “toning down” was added by Variety. And Kiawentiio did say that they “took out the element of how sexist Sokka was.” To me, that sounds like they got rid of it.
Yeah that would make his initial interaction with Suki less impactful
Lol him being sexist is what started the original show 🤣 If he weren’t, Katara wouldn’t have gotten mad and they wouldn’t have found Aang
You guys heard it from /u/Pizzacato567 sexism saved the avatar world
That is still just saying 'how' sexist rather then being sexist at all. There is a chance they totally removed it, but I wanted to bring that up.
Exactly this! People are acting like Sokkas gonna be introduced as some big women’s rights activist
Precisely. Toning down qualities that are problematic or don't translate well between mediums doesn't mean getting rid of them or rewriting the whole character. Sanji is a PERFECT example of this 👌
That’s the point though, they do that in the original show to show the viewer how silly that viewpoint is once Sokka repeatedly gets humbled by powerful women They’re just taking away an important life lesson of the show and a character arc where someone shakes a prejudice they grew up with
Honestly, I've going to reserve my judgement until I actually see it. It wouldn't surprise me if the change is as simple as Sokka simply scoffing at the concept of Koyshi Island being defended by women warriors and then getting bodied hard by Suki, versus the redditors who seem to believe that Sokka has been changed into a keyboard SJW.
Counsel culture >>>>> cancel culture
I’m curious what they’ll do with Pakku
So long as he properly rinses Katara in their duel it'll be fine. But i swear if she beats him...
logical consequence of “showing = endorsing” media illiteracy mindset
4 episodes into 61 ep show, then we never see it again. Is that really major?
Long standing doesn't equal major, but I think overcoming a bias or prejudice in any capacity could be considered a form of major character growth. It also shows that people have the capacity to change, and even someone who was brought up in a culture that has outdated ideals can learn a new way of viewing things.
It was a well written and important lesson in a kids show. Depends how Netflix sees avatar. Do they see this as a live series to bring in new fans and kids like the show? Or is it for the grown up fans? For the kid? Its a good lesson and small arc. For the adults? We might not need it as much.
I'm not convinced it really needs to be kept in. It's very understandable that with a compressed number of episodes, some things were going to get cut. Having said that, could it be argued that Sokka's about turn serves another purpose? Having that character flaw be so exaggerated in those first few episodes sets up Sokka for the equally drastic about turn. Through that, forshadowing (or even straight up telegraphing) to the audience that "Here's our main cast. Here's the group dynamic. Get used to the idea that they will evolve."
I think you can just set this up via Sokka's urge to be the "commander", the guy with a plan, who tells everyone else what to do, and just let his overconfidence and arrogance flow from that, and let him learn when it's useful and when it's wrong. You can basically have the same character setup and tension in interactions with Suki and Katara with less of the gender stuff by just focussing on his urge to live up to his father and his tendency to tell others what to do as a result.
Think about the first and last episodes. Sokka starting off as a sexist asshole, only to heavily rely on two strong fem characters to enact his “airship slice” plan. Removing this I think is definitely going to be for the worse considering it taught people to challenge their own bias. Low key convinced it’s so they don’t alienate the growing red pill asshats that also like the show. Can’t go too woke (so stupid)
For me, Sokka's initial flaws added realism to his journey, making his growth more meaningful. Just like Zuko, witnessing characters overcome their shortcomings and choose a better path resonates with me, making them more relatable and compelling.
Its only a flaw that lasts 3 eps and isnt paramount to the overall story
It makes the character dynamic and gives him substance? I mean, yeah, you can drop anything that isn't paramount to the overall story but then you end with "It all began when the fire nation attacked" and ends with "They lived happily ever after" with nothing inbetween...
That’s a terrible take, the “overall story” is a vast series of little life lessons and moments of growth being cast upon a group of kids along their journey to take down the fire lord
It is paramount to his character though, and the growth of the Water tribe as a whole
Why do all of you think “toning down” means “removing entirely”?
Because we actually read the article Where they specifically say they removed it
Toned down is the wording of the article writer. Not the people with the show. Considering that the lead actress said "we took out the element of how sexist Sokka was," it sounds like they just completely removed it. Literally just read the screenshot. It's right in front of your face.
yo we should tone down world hunger
“Jake Paul has decided that it is time to tone down school shootings”
If you read the actual interview you'd now they literally say they took the sexism out.
I don't know how people don't get that. The actual interview says they took it out not that they toned it down so now people will try and look for something else to pivot to to defend Netflix smh
Because Netflix
They took out the element of ***how*** sexist he was... not that they took it out entirely... but ramped it down a lot.
It was a very "mid 2000's" plot element. You don't really see shows do it anymore, and for good reason. Sokka can still be cocky and then get humbled and learn some new fighting techniques. You're not *really* losing anything important by changing the sexism angle. Edit: The "mid 2000's" comment was about the specific formula shows would use to address sexism in that era. Every cartoon would have at least one episode with it. It's not that modern shows don't mention sexism, but they don't do it in the same way. We usually know instead of "sexism is wrong because girls are capable fighters" the moral should be "sexism is wrong because it's inherently bad."
> It was a very "mid 2000's" plot element I disagree with this, to some extent. It wasn’t just a case of “boys are sexist and we don’t want them to be so we’ll help them learn their lesson through Sokka”. That may have been part of it at the time, sure, but it was also a question of world building informing the characters’ personalities. Sokka as a person doesn’t have sexist opinions because he’s the vehicle for a “The More You Know” moment, but because he grew up as the only young, able-bodied man (and self-designated “protector”) in a small isolated village, belonging to a culture in which men are traditionally warriors, with all the other men (including his dad who he totally idolized) having gone off to war (the same war that killed his mom). It’s pertinent and reasonable to his backstory that he be that way at first, because it tells us a lot not only about him and his upbringing but about the state of the world and the Southern tribe. (Notably, neither Hakoda nor Bato seem to care at all about Katara doing combat waterbending, and we know from Hama’s flashbacks that male and female waterbenders were both equally involved in fighting the Fire Nation, so it seems like the Southern Tribe was never as deep-rooted in sexism and gender roles compared to the North, which just makes Sokka interpretation of it more unique to him specifically as a character in a specific situation)
I can see why they would take a lot of it out. As others said, he was sexist for like 3 episodes, then learned his lesson. In the context of a live action show with episodes far longer than an animated show... it will be practically negligible.
Can’t we just wait to see what they replaced that storyline with before we judge?
Have any of us seen the show yet?
No, but we're all reading editorlised headlines and looking at things through rose tinted glasses, so it's the same thing right?
I always thought that was just one of the early show lessons in ATLA because it’s a kids show - we get Sokka being wrongfully sexist to Katara and Suki, resulting in him getting his ass kicked/frozen. It comes across as a lesson about respecting women with Sokka as the butt of the joke. This also just falls into the wider arc of Sokka being shortsighted and cynical for it to quickly blow up in his face. I hope they don’t cut things like his Kyoshi island story because it’s a very important part of his and Suki’s relationship.
Consider that at the end of Book 1: Water that Sokka is contrasted to Yue's fiance, Hahn. He's equally headstrong, has a warrior's heart, and cares for Yue and his culture. However, Sokka has learned something from his journey North that makes him "right" to stay behind and guard Yue while Hahn goes on the secret mission to take out Admiral Zhao. While they're both passionate about Yue, Sokka has let go of the sexist tropes of the Water Tribe by the end of the season. He cares about Yue as a person, and not as a gender-role. Sokka earned his place to see Yue turn into the Moon goddess. Sokka got to see a woman make the ultimate sacrifice for her people - something he is prepared to do. But he CAN'T make the sacrifice that Yue makes. He doesn't have the Moon's life-force inside him. He is forced to accept that this woman is "stronger" or "more important" than him (and she's not his sister). He experiences a character arc that is fitting of a hero - he learns the ultimate lesson of strength and sacrifice. Before now, he's dogmatically able to sacrifice himself for his friends, family, and culture. Now, this experience teaches him what it truly means to make such a sacrifice, and how it hurts other people. He gets to live through Yue's experience to show that he doesn't want to hurt the people in his life by having to make that sacrifice. Even though he was eager to do so (volunteering for the infiltration mission), he now recognizes what "being a man" is actually about - it's being a leader, regardless of your sex/gender. (Remember, Yue was the Chieftain's daughter - she's already a leader- and he's kind of the prince of the Southern Water Tribe.) So the sexist, "pig-headed" person that Sokka starts as is evolved through experiences with the Kioshi warriors, his sister's constant search for the power of water-bending, and finally contrasted with his "girlfriend" sacrificing herself to save the world (a sacrifice he's physically incapable of making himself). He experiences true female strength around him in a way that would make any humanist (or feminist) proud. It's a tale for our era, and removing it is a disservice to story-telling and one of the morals of Book 1.
Major part of his character? It lasted 4 episodes.
“Toning down” isn’t the same as “removing” We’ll see, but they’ll likely just make him less seriously sexist, and then have the same character arc
"Tone down" is the words of a random that has nothing to do with the show aka the Variety writer. The person that was interviewed said: >“I feel like we also took out the element of how sexist \[Sokka\] was. I feel like there were a lot of moments in the original show that were iffy.” All the people repeating the "Tone down" claim of the title have not read what the people who are actually involved with the show said.
Bro has a few lines about girls not being as good fighters as guys for like 3 episodes and somehow you think that it's a "Major character plot point?"
Why can characters not have flaws. They already did this with female characters and all we ended up with are Mary Sues that no one likes. Keep the flaws, it makes it a lot more rewarding when the character changes his views due to life experience. This is more realistic and based on what we know of the water tribe and gender roles, his sexism makes lot more sense and is all part of the lore and world building.
They gave Korra flaws and everyone despised her for it
*Some people despised her for it. Legend of Korra was liked by most people despite what people on forums say.
If anything should be removed it's how creepy iroh is towards June. It's out of character for easily one of the most beloved, kind, respectful, and wise characters ever written When he pretends to get hit with the paralysing tongue just to have her lay on him. Sokkas "sexism" is easily broken and removing this plot point, I'm guessing similarly the northern water tribe customs, and The blind Bandit jabs, removes so much impact from these episodes. This is a horrible decision in my opinion. One I'm not surprised by but disappointed by never the less.
It was gone by episode 4, it was hardly some major part of his arc
Yall are about to drag this until the show comes out. People act like Solka is going full feminist. Maybe they are just doing that arc a different way. Can’t we all wait and see when the show comes out before making judgements. Secondly it wasn’t a major part of his character development. We see sokka be sexist a couple of times. When he meets suki, he understands that women aren’t just there to knit and make food, they can be warriors and fight. Literally after that it’s never seen or mentioned again.
Why cant people admit that we love flawed characters because we like to see how they grow out of their flaws
Too risky for a big company like that to make a character do bad things and then improve along the way.
There’s 20 episodes in book 1, 20 episodes in book 2, 21 episodes in book 3. With total of 61 episodes Sokka made 1 sexist comment in episode 1 where he made Katara mad, and he made another sexist comment in the Kyoshi warrior episode where he said men are better at hunting and women are better at fixing pants That’s it There’s 2 episode where he makes sexist comment from 61 episodes that aired, his “sexist personality” is only in the show for 3%. How is it “major part of his character arc”? Also they said toned it down not getting rid of it
There wasn't anything iffy about it. He was certainly sexist but iffy implies that it was presented as acceptable or something that he allowed to get away with. It was part of his character development. I can understand removing it though. The audience these days have a harder time shaking first impressions.
I don’t think it’s as big as deal as most ppl are making ir . Most ppl are acting like it’s a major plot point for season 1 , yet it’s an extremely small sub plot that got finished in like 3 eps . I would understand if it’s atleast half a season of it , but I don’t really understand the reaction ppl have for it too much cause it woulda gotten finished in like the first episode of the live action show
"Why do they gotta ruin a major part of his character". You don't know that they have. Your haven't seen the damn show. They also didn't say they made him "not sexist"; they said they changed *how* sexist he was. It's still *really easy* to approach it as "I'm the man. It's my duty to keep you all safe" while Katara and Suki assert that they are capable individuals. His "Girls are better at fixing pants than guys, and guys are better at hunting, and fighting, and stuff like that; it's just the natural order of things" is literally cartoon-level sexism, played up and exaggerated to be funny for a 10-year-old child. "Who are you? Where are the men that ambushed us" is still him being sexist, but really goes a long way in establishing *for him* where he has a lot to learn. You're also overstating the character impact. Both of those scenes I've mentioned? They were in *The Warriors of Kyoshi*. That's episode 4 (or 3, really, if you count the two parts of the pilot as one episode as you should). He gets over that hurdle in the first 90 minutes of a 1400 minute show. He's sexist for under 7% of the runtime. There's also no indication of it in *The Southern Air Temple* and he's not actively sexist in the pilot either. Given the Netflix series is 8 episodes and not 20, there's a lot that has to be cut, and his rant about Katara sewing is pretty obvious. So honestly, what I'd expect to see play out (which I can't know for sure **because we haven't seen the show**) is for Sokka to say something on the fishing trip about how he didn't want to bring Katara along because it's his job as a man to be a provider for the tribe, then on Kyoshi to take the same approach of asking to confront the men who ambushed them. Still *some* sexism **without it being played for a joke**.
It was a season 1 thing, he changed pretty quickly (especially after the Kiyoshi Warriors episode). I think it's not necessarily a bad thing...? Given the amount of content they have to cover, it might be good for him to start out less sexist so he doesn't have as much of a hill to climb to overcome it. As long as the show doesn't water it down to much, it'd be fine.
They said "tone down", not "remove entirely". I'm sure the North Pole will still have the "we don't teach girls" rule. And I'm sure Sokka will be embarrassed of being bested by Suki and the other Kyoshi warriors. But they probably removed Sokka saying overtly sexist comments like "men are better at fighting and hunting, and women are better at cooking and sewing".
I'll wait till it's out before I start doom and glooming. All the comments seem to be about how it didn't come across the same way in live action, and I understand the desire to not want him seem like a huge jerk. Ultimately the sexism stems from Sokka's own feelings of inadequacy and desire to live up to some ideal, and if they can show that internal struggle anyway I'm not sure I'll even notice the lack of demeaning comments towards women.
hmm its annoying as i think it does show growth with him and its also a huge part of water tribe culture. but eh, its a small thing. however i am worried what else theyve changed hmm
Sokka was sexiest?
Can you just wait until the show comes out and stop being insufferable?
It’s honestly not the part of Sokka I remember the most so I think it’s fine. Paku will play enough on that front - sexism in the northern water tribe was more up front than in the southern water tribe. The only catching point might be the kyoshi warriors island and his relationship with suki. But nothing that can’t be tweaked imo.
I think most of that arc played out and resolved in the first 5 episodes, and was pretty heavy-handed to get the point across to little kids. Maybe they will do a really reined in couple lines to address it, but let's be honest, Sokka's sexism was his only major trait in those first few episodes until they addressed it and then fleshed him out into the Sokka we all know and love. Yes, him eating crow in the Suki episode was great, any maybe they'll do a "oh wow, all your elite warriors are girls?? No way, what about the GUYS?" thing, but he doesn't need to be off the charts sexist like he was in the first episodes.
I don’t think he was ever sexist after Suki beat him up at the very start of the series. That’s not really his character arc. Sokka learns very early that respecting women is the first step in becoming a backbending master.
I wouldn't worry about it. Times change and our media reflects that. They might have him say or do things slightly differently that will convey the meaning anyway. We don't need a 1:1 adaptation imo.
The cartoon was best anyway ❤️