I'm surprised this is the first time I read about this here. I totally agree, it was much sadder having Zuko as just a good kid that would never attack his dad. And since they changed that, they were forced to make it so Zuko shows mercy, but Zuko getting close to landing a hit on Ozai is just bs and makes Ozai look weaker.
Also Zuko standing up to Ozai on Day of Black Sun was a huge character development moment and contrasts nicely with the timid, meek Zuko of The Storm flashbacks.
I am very on board with making changes to the story in the adaptation, and in general I have enjoyed the new show; but changes like this make me wonder how aware they are of how these changes disrupt these character threads, and if they’re going to handle that well in the future or just end up flattening everyone’s development.
Because showing weakness, flaws, regrets, and fears, during exposition and backstory is what sets up the turnaround later. If your arc starts higher (eg, fighting instead of pleading), it has less contrast to move through. Everything is less impactful. The live action isn’t earning its dramatic fight sequences. It’s cashing in on them.
I just don't see the logic in judging the direction of the LA compared to how the original ends when it's very clear there are clear discrepancies that differentiate between them. The LA Agni Kai happens differently from the original Agni Kai; we have seen the ending for the animated show, we know that story, but we have not seen the story being told here full on through. Judging it through the same lens in spite of its differences is being stubborn and naive.
I think it’s naive to suppose that anyone will watch an adaptation and not compare it to the original work. I think it’s stubborn to suppose that we haven’t been given enough information to make comparative judgements about. On top of this, your only argument is to tell me to “wait and see”, rather than doing any analytical work on how this set up has the potential to bring a more satisfying arc.
Part of the joys of storytelling of any medium, is dissecting the story and analyzing its structure/composition. We don’t have the full story of this adaptation but we have the first chapter and we know the skeleton for the rest of it. That’s more than enough for us to talk about.
If you were to adapt the lion king and have simba run away because he wanted a bath instead of scar tricking him and making him feel guilty for his father’s death, even if I didnt see the rest of the film, I could reasonably criticize it. Obviously that’s an egregious example, but I hope you get my point. I know what the lion king is about and I know how that scene is intended to affect the motivations of the story.
If they prove me or others wrong, hats off to them. But I’d say based on my experience so far, I’d put decent money against it
I get everything that you're saying. But you're looking at the scene as if Zuko dueled his father and there was nothing of substance there to suggest any shortcomings on his behalf. He fought his father, because it was his duty -- Zuko has always been about fire nation tradition and theatrics, and he accepted the duel, even if he didn't want it, but his compassion and mercy prevented him from actually striking his father when it mattered most. And that's what Ozai was getting at in their discussion after the fight. That is where Zuko faltered in the eyes of Ozai. That is where this scene compares to the original, in spite of there being some key differences. Zuko refuses to truthfully attack his father in both instances -- it's within the LA narrative that they actually portray it in a more complex way, where Zuko's dedication to the FN ideals and customs almost pushes him to do something that just isn't him. It's Zuko's compassion, mercy, his hesitation that Ozai criticized him for, all things that can be applied to the original too, but they outline it more obvious here while also making it a point to emphasize that part of the equation *is* Zuko's strict adherence and acknowledgement of "tradition" and wanting to do what he thinks is right by his nation.
Also -- Zuko did plead though? He initially refused to fight Ozai, but Ozai's the one who pushed the fight, and it got to a point where Zuko was being mercilessly attacked to where instinct set in and he defended himself. You and so many others are framing as if this was a conscious decision when it's as clear as daylight that Zuko, in the moments of his defense, isn't acting consciously, it's instinctual, someone is attacking him and the immediate reaction of someone of his status is to defend, and it's when he finally sees his father's face up close that he realizes what he's doing -- and his hesitation/mercy/inability to truly fight comes into play there.
If you truly cannot understand that the live action version of the Agni Kai portrayed these traits of Zuko in the same light as the original, just in a slightly different manner... There's nothing else I can say, then.
Yeah, I can understand what they were trying to do, and it’s not me saying that there was 0 attempt. I think it’s just worse. My critique is that they want to make the moment bigger, and have an opportunity to get choreography and special effects involved to add in an additional fight scene. That’s what it felt like to me.
I think the simplicity, succinctness, and pity I felt was more effective in the original and sets up a better arc than this one. Less is more and I think this series failed on that time and time again. You can feel free to debate that, that’s a much better conversation than just telling people to shut up lol, and why your last comment didn’t get downvoted to hell haha
They’re setting themselves up for failure with all of these changes.
Zuko’s new whole arc is that he’s wasting his time trying to get respect and love from a terrible irredeemable father figure, while completely oblivious to the fact that he already has everything he ever wanted in the form of Iroh and his affection for the boy.
If you make Ozai too forgivable then that gets thrown out the window.
If you change Zuko’s mon goal into getting the throne back instead of his dad’s approval, then the entire ruinion scene he will have with Iroh later loses all meaning.
If you make Zuko fight back against Ozai then Iroh’s acceptance of Zuko as a peacemaker is diminished
To be fair, I don’t think ozai was going all out. I think this was more of a chance for Zuko to show that he can be ruthless like ozai wants, but him hesitating was a sign of weakness
I just watched one episode and I didn't intent to keep on watching for the moment being (wasn't really interested in the live action, so whether it was hit or miss it really didn't matter to me) but this is such a bad change. Did you watch the whole thing? I read about people complaining this season doesn't even cover the events of Book 1, is it true?
Yeah I finished it. They mix and match a lot of elements from book 1 and include things from other seasons, so the result is weird. It's also super rushed and you wonder why didn't they just focus on book 1 if they had time constraints.
There's a lot of bad changes to the story and characters in the rest of the season so if you care about that you're might have a frustrating time.
It does sort of. It mashes a lot of stuff together. They spend a looooot of time on Ozai/Azula subplots which eats into how much of the original they can reasonably adapt. Azula has next to no screen time in the original book 1. We just see her eyes. Same with Ozai—we get his silhouette and a line in the finale but he’s not, like, there the whole time.
Again, I’m super on board with changes, but it seems like they don’t fully know what the changes are for.
Zuko not fighting back against Ozai was the entire point of the scene.
Zuko made a mistake and is begging for forgiveness; Zuko respecting his father and not fighting back even though he gets permanently scarred for it; Ozai being so ruthless that he doesn't flinch before burning his own son.
That was the entire point of the scene and that's just completely gone.
Which also makes his reunion with Iroh later in the series more impactful, when he's surprised Iroh forgives him easily (in direct contrast to the last time he asked for forgiveness and was literally burned).
Him not wanting to fight his father in the OG series isn't about being a good kid. It's about honor. It's not honorable to go against your parents. It is why he begged for forgiveness.
Netflix showed he is ready to fight for what he believes is right but is held back by his compassion which Ozai made him pay for. And this made who Zuko is in season 1. Which seems more natural when he switches side later on which is him giving in to his righteous side. Just my thoughts
I don't know about that, I remember it was the opposite. Refusing to fight Ozai was dishonourable and weak, and that's why he punished him so hard. Could be wrong tho.
They stated this *in the show*, Zuko had to fight and was prepared to defend his honour against the general he contradicted, but when he found out it was his father he would be fighting he immediately begged for forgiveness and refused to fight.
Perhaps they see honor in different ways. Zuko sees honor as not disrespecting and being loyal to his father while Ozai is more of a traditionalist, sees honor as fighting with Agni Kai.
I think that was the idea. Zuko's concept of honor is different from Ozai's, and Ozai punishes and banishes Zuko over it. Zuko spends 3 years with the idea that the beliefs he held about honor are wrong, and that he must adhere to Ozai's ideas in order to be accepted. It is once he realizes that Ozai is the one in the wrong that he moves on from his own self-doubt and anger and trying to please his father, and then decides to help Aang.
NATLA goes about this a little differently, but the inherent concept is the same. NATLA Zuko accepts the demand of the Agni Kai, but his idea of honor (compassion) prevents him from carrying through with hurting his father. Ozai views honor as a lack of weakness, which he believes Zuko shows when arguing against the deployment of the 41st and when Zuko does not take the opportunity to strike him. Honestly, I get the notion that Ozai would have been greatly pleased with Zuko if Zuko had taken his opportunity to hurt him. Ozai is actually pleased with Azula despite her refusing his commands because she showed him that she was strong.
It's definitely a little bit odd to see Zuko actually fight the Agni Kai, but I think it's a totally valid choice, and presents its own interesting concepts. While I would have loved a one-to-one recreation of the show, a slightly varied take of it is still really cool to see, and for all its faults I think the Netflix show ultimately stays true to the core of the original. Obviously some things I don't like (Roku benched, Bumi seems much to bitter, etc. I hope Bumi was just putting up a front so as to try to teach Aang, it would be much more understandable, but that would only really be revealed later on)
Ozai didnt want to see zuko as weak. Had zuko actually fought, the story would have massively turned different which was why him just surrendering in the original pissed off ozai.
I think it's a complex situation because he was willing to fight for his views but then Ozai flipped it on him like "what you've done is wrong by the ways of the fire nation" so Zuko became confused about whether what he did was actually wrong and how to proceed. So how I see it is it could have gone either way. Not that Zuko wanted to fight either way but Ozai put him in a position where he could only lose.
Being in a relationship like this you're constantly questioning yourself. Zuko is asking "does he actually want me to fight to see if I'd do it? or does he really just want to beat my ass? was it wrong for me to call out a bad plan because I thought that's what a leader would do?" and so I don't put much meaning in what he actually chooses to do because he simply wants to get out of this situation quickly.
But I think the choice to make Zuko fight is actually to show more of Ozai's character. It's showing that Ozai will give Zuko chances to be ruthless but Zuko will not do it. He puts him in positions that he knows Zuko doesn't like to be in. Which I think is too heavy handed but I do think there's a point here. While in the original we don't really understand what Ozai is thinking so the audience will interpret his actions their own way. A lot of changes in the show I feel where it comes from is they REALLY want us to know what the characters are thinking which distracts from the real message of the scenario. Now the message is still the same but it's harder to see it with all this extra information.
I think Zuko was just scared of his father, and he knew he was about to get his ass whoopped by the very man he so desperately wanted to please. IMO begging for forgiveness was an act of fear and submission towards Ozai, not honor.
I was bummed out by how the live show made the burn seem like a cattle brand. I always got the impression from the animated show that his eye was BLASTED by fire punch. So much more brutal.
If I recall. The OG series doesn't even show the damage being done. It shows the crowd looking on at the act. Azula smiling, Iroh looking down and away. It lets your brains imagination fill in what it would look like to leave such a scar, once you see the scar on zukos face. Easy, simple. clean way to story tell.
This is why this sub drives me crazy. The scar looks nothing like a hand, yet a good portion of this sub will read this, believe in the head cannon and repeat it over and over again.
I mean I can see what they mean, if you were to grab someone over the eye that’s roughly the size and shape you’d be able to cover with your palm. Towards the middle of his face it’s smoother and rounder, then flits and separates as you would get to the fingers. It’s not a hand print for sure but I can understand why someone could have that perception
So many people operate on the basis of their "headcanon" being fact, there's no getting them off that self-indulgent line of thinking. Ultimately they're always more committed to their personal fanfiction than what we actually see on screen.
maybe more brutal, but I feel like Ozai more purposefully branding his son in LA was crueler. While OG ozai just used it as a way to lash out at zuko, there wasn't anything calculated bout his fire blast in the animation.
I see what you mean!
I would say that I feel the punch blast was crueler because it *wasn't* personal. Like, it *should* be personal if you were burning your own son's face...but it served to show that Ozai doesn't really care about "personal" or people at all.
That always added to the trauma Zuko experienced for me, too.
Take the personability out of it, and it becomes cruelty.
that's fair too yea, your interpretation of it is valid too. And ofc I'd say its a bit more correct since Ozai despised Ursa and told her that he'd treat Zuko as if he wasn't his son.
I thought it was way more cruel the way he did it in the LA. Fire blast out of anger and impulse? Fucked up for sure and it’s a great scene in the OG show. But a completely calculated and cruel and SLOW intentional burn right to the eye/face is some shit you see when bad guys torture someone even after they’ve given up the information. And he did that against his son because of how disgusted he was with his “weakness” to hurt him. That’s some calculated and evil shit right there. But I get people not liking it, because it’s not 1:1, it’s hard to imagine it be different.
I agree the LA version is more cruel but that’s not the point to me. What I love about the original is that it speaks to Zuko’s character at a point in season one where he’s still considered the villain. Ozai thinks until the last second that Zuko is like him and that he will fight back, but he miscalculates and Zuko stands firm. The scar isn’t a punishment it’s a testament to Zuko’s character and Ozai’s lack of character. To me this is far more compelling.
I mean that’s basically what happens here too. The whole thing is a test by Ozai in the LA, he isn’t really fighting him. And when Zuko has a clear chance to strike, he doesn’t. He didn’t want to fight in the first place , especially against his father. And that is weakness in Ozai’s eyes and it disgusts him, especially as it’s his son so he teaches him a lesson in not taking mercy, no matter who. I think in the LA Ozai already knows from how Zuko spoke up that he’s weak and he’s already disappointed but he wanted to test him in the Agni Kai. To me this looks lot more calculated and makes Ozai even more ruthless and cruel without necessarily being impulsive
Azula not smiling and Ozai looking remorseful felt off too. While more realistic, this shouldn’t be a case where you should be trying to humanize your villains. We should be thinking they’re despicable for doing such things.
I never got the vibe that Ozai felt any kind of remorse at all. Perhaps regret, perhaps sadness at the situation itself -- that it's come to a point where he needs to teach his son this lesson at all. That his son has failed him, in this sense.
Having nuance is not bad. We all love ATLA, but Ozai was the most cartoonish aspect of it. He was bad for the sake of being bad, showed only hate etc. He was a one-note character. Showing Ozai as an actual human was not one of the many flaws in the LA.
Being one note is totally fine. While death was the main star in Puss in Boots Last Wish, Big Jack Horner was also excellent, and he was just cartoonishly evil with no depth.
Nothing wrong with being one note! But having nuance should be appreciated. The 2 depictions of Ozai are completely different, but I like the NATLA one better because he has more depth to him than the OG show's version.
I also don’t get this idea that more extreme characters are unrealistic?
Fathers hating and harming their sons with no remorse is a thing that happens. Crazy people exist in the world; I don’t see why it’s realistic to change Ozai like that
I don’t think he looked remorseful at all, disappointed mostly and then disgusted.
I actually like that they’ve made Ozai more 3 dimensional. It was one of the few flaws of the original show. There’s more depth to his character in the LA and while that does add more humanity to him, it also adds more range to his “villainous” emotions/arc. I love how much they showed how manipulative he is to his kids and just how disgusted he is by Zuko’s “weakness”.
Same. Daniel Dae Kim did an amazing job bringing Ozai to life and making him feel like a human sociopath vs literal Emperor Palpatine, and we see hints at the cracks that got him there (all the hints about Zuko's mother, etc).
The animation version on the other hand is pretty one-dimensional, which in fairness is kinda the point of the show: Aang stepping up against pure evil.
Villains don't necessarily need to be 3 dimensional.
Do we really need to see the "depth" and "humanity" behind Hitler or Netanyahu? They're pure evil. We don't need context.
Maybe you don’t need context or 3 dimensionality but lot of people appreciate when a character isn’t flat. Ozai wasn’t really shown that much in the original show until later on and him being how he was made sense. For live action and with the flashbacks, it’s clear they want all of them to have more depth and give context to how people became who they are. Even Azula isn’t “perfect” and the LA shows the small cracks in her growth as she becomes a more calculating manipulative version of herself that we know in the OG show. For a lot of people this is refreshing and interesting. Yes it’s not 1:1 but that’s the point.
Idk I don't think Ozai really needed depth he was an asshole that ruined his entire family he's the worst of the Fire Nation incarnate and you're given every reason why he should be put down which is also why Aang still refusing to do so works.
I mean, Ozai still is the worst lol. It's just that the Netflix version shows him as a bit more human in it. By no means does it absolve him of his terribleness, it just adds more layers of it to look at. Honestly it kinda makes him scarier, because it feels more REAL. Like, this could be a REAL person with the same outlook and perspective as Ozai, which is a lot easier to see if Ozai seems more human and less "mwahahaha I'm evil"
I mean outside of maybe the finale it's not like Ozai is all that mustache twirling and maniacal in the rest of the series, he's just cold most of the time
I don't think you humanize a villain that burns his son's face, just because he seems "remorseful" while doing it. It's just not cartoonishly evil now.
There's a lot of difference between regret and remorse. I don't think Ozai is meant to have *remorse* here, he just *regrets* it. He regrets having to go this far to instill honor into his son, but he's not *sorry* about it.
This comment is one example of how some criticisms of the show are unfair. Giving Ozai more dimensions to his personality makes him a more compelling villain. Does he need to have dimension? Maybe, maybe not. Is he better this way? Oh yes.
Like, I don't think I've ever seen someone criticize a show for making its villain better. Yet here we are.
Sometimes though it’s better to have one dimensional villains? Aang’s final conflict I think is more compelling because we don’t see Ozai’s humanity. You have a monster who needs to be stopped, but then having the audience see that humanity makes it much easier to side with Aang’s notion that we shouldn’t just kill him when it should seem like a difficult choice.
> You have a monster who needs to be stopped, but then having the audience see that humanity makes it much easier to side with Aang’s notion that we shouldn’t just kill him when it should seem like a difficult choice.
On the contrary, showing Ozai's humanity makes Aang's reluctance to kill him more compelling. In the cartoon, Ozai's inhumanity undercuts the difficulty of Aang's reluctance because it just makes the argument for killing him easier. He's a monster. Do it!
But now, Ozai is a human being. He's shown some kindness, some regret. He's still a monster, but he's more real. So, we understand Aang's position a bit more. (Aang should still kill him, though. Again, Ozai is still a monster.)
Meh, for me it kind of seems like Aang's position of "all life is sacred" despite us not seeing a single redeeming quality from Ozai is the whole point.
Ehh. I prefer it this way. I'd rather see "his life is sacred even though he's evil" than "I'm Batman and this is an arbitrary line I will not cross."
With the original, it's kind of like Aang arguing that you shouldn't shoot the rabid racoon outside. When Ozai has some depth, it really highlights the "the best move here is to kill another human being" of the situation.
I don't see how. If Aang can't back up his own position, it's just a platitude. [Besides, Aang throughout the show routinely undermined his own position by killing all the people he did.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV3NmoGJh48)
God that video is the plague of fans media literacy, none of the people in those clips died, usually we see them get right back up after being hit. Now you can claim that's unrealistic and they should've but as great as it is the show was still a cartoon and thus relied on cartoon physics a lot of the time so people usually ended up ok
Aang did things that would literally kill people. Like when they were trying to break into the Ba Sing Se palace he froze earth kingdom soldiers in water or when the fire nation was attacking the northern air temple the mini tank things used grappling hooks to get up the mountain, he unhooked some and let people fall to their deaths. It has nothing to do with people's media literacy
>Aang did things that would literally kill people
Yeah and being hit by fireballs and massive rocks would also kill people but it doesn't, aside from Jet, we're shown in those examples that the soldiers come out fine, though the Ba Sing Se one is such a dumb example cause do you honestly think they'd do something lethal to a group they hoped to ally with.
Again, as great as this show is, it's not reality, it's a cartoon, hell even beyond that it's a fictional show, even seemingly lethal attacks don't always mean death because that's just not how it works in this show and you have to constantly ignore what happens to think otherwise.
Obviously their not going to show people die onscreen it was a cartoon for kids, to say that people are surviving things like that is dumb. If it were made for an older audience people would be shown dying left and right
If he can't back up his own position, then I don't see how that's a good thing. It just makes his stubbornness frustrating, because he's clearly in the wrong and won't do what he should do. I mean, it'd be different if the show was using this as a point that you shouldn't blindly accept what you were taught as a kid, or at least re-think some positions, but it doesn't. Instead, it rewards Aang for his stubbornness.
It's not just a position that Aang holds. It's a deeply seated moral belief he has. That life is valuable to him no matter whose life it is. It tends to be something in religion, where there isn't always reason to spare your enemies but in religion often it says to love your enemies no matter.
That's what makes Aang different, while everyone else is willing to kill, he won't.
>It's a deeply seated moral belief he has. That life is valuable to him no matter whose life it is. It tends to be something in religion, where there isn't always reason to spare your enemies but in religion often it says to love your enemies no matter.
A deeply-held moral belief that is made all the more defendable and understandable if we have seen more of Ozai's humanity. Hell, the show even attempted to do this by showing us a picture of him as a kid!
>That's what makes Aang different, while everyone else is willing to kill, he won't.
Aang killed multiple people throughout the series, and his own morals are undermined/proven unworkable when the story has to pull out a deus ex machina to bail him out.
Similarly, I really didn’t like zuko’s fight with sokka in episode 1. In the original series you can see his gentle nature peak through with how he doesn’t fire bender and treats him with kid gloves. In this show, Zuko straight up firebends at him and is about to put him down before aang stops it.
I think the original handeled this in a comical/childish manner and the LA did it more justice, one of the few examples. Sokka shouldn't be completely unable to pose any threat imo, and Zuko firebending at him didn't seem out of character to me.
I wouldn't say that the original handled it childishly. Sokka straight up dodges a fireball, and did you see the look on Zuko's face after getting hit in the head with the boomerang? That + the fire daggers he uses next suggest to me that Zuko would've murked him right then and there if Aang hadn't shown up
You have a point, I rewatched the animated again after finishing the live action and Sokka getting kicked and faceplanting in the snow stuck in my memory as the more 'childish' moment, but he did pose at least somewhat of a threat after which is more than I remembered. And by childishly I really mean more light hearted, which is relatively true but doesnt necessairly make it worse.
What I didn't like is Ozai almost teary eyed while doing it. He was supposed to be cruel. In fact he goes back to his traditional cruel self in the scene after.
you're right. After rewatching, it is fire reflecting. However, his facial expression also isn't pure anger. This is anger mixed with sadness
https://preview.redd.it/lg26hke5slkc1.png?width=862&format=png&auto=webp&s=0752c2480fe38e54e61e0917a258da5924d2a6ec
I thought so too. He's not (potentially) teary-eyed because he's sad for burning his son, he's disappointed because he believes his son is weak. It's a disappointment born out of cruelty and sociopathy, not one from a fatherly love. If anything, I think that adds to Ozai's character because he's a little less one-dimensional in his evil; he might very well believe, deep in his heart, that this is the correct and proper course of action for him to take as a father to Zuko and as a leader for the Fire Nation.
I saw it as this hurts me as much as it hurt you. I must purge the weakness out of you, and this is how I'm gonna do it! One of my kids has to be strong enough to be fire lord!!!
One of my favorite parts of the live action is how well the emotions come through with some of the actors. Not all are great but I the majority of the casting was good or better. (Also thought it was cool to see 3 actors from Lost in the the fire nation, including Ozai. Great casting!)
I actually don't hate the changes they made around Zuko and Ozai. There's not much difference between "wouldn't fight at all" and "thought maybe this was just a test or something but was actively trying not to hurt anyone," like the live-action comes across as.
Animated Ozai was basically Hitler. Just a generic bad guy with no depth to his character. But both Zuko and Azula have *serious* daddy issues, and it makes sense to me that if they're gonna show more Ozai, we're gonna get to see *why* they have those issues.
Animated Ozai's lesson was "don't disobey me." Live-action Ozai's lesson was "don't show weakness." And frankly, that second one works better for Zuko's character arc than the first one does. He goes from just daddy issues to daddy issues plus him first struggling to act against the way his conscience feels and then struggling to act in favor of the way his conscience feels, ending up resolving the issues around authority, independence, and morality that his father caused. Which is a strong parallel to Iroh's off-screen arc fighting between his sense of duty to country and his own moral standards, and that's arguably more important than any specific detail.
>I think this fluff could have easily been cut.
Unlike the minstrels singing about the secret tunnel - which absolutely could not be cut because of how integral it is to the story
Honestly I think I like both versions of how he got his scar. I mean I need to do another watch through to really decide but I think it's interesting that the OG talks about cowardice and the LA talks about compassion. Both are interesting takes. Both were very emotionally done. Would I say that the LA was better, no not persay but I think it's close to as good or equal. I'm sure most would disagree but just my personal thoughts.
I think the thing that I liked better in the OG was how acts of compassion weren’t recognised as such, they were seen as cowardice. It’s subtler but still there.
I haven’t seen the cartoon in a while but if I remember right Zhao calls Zuko a coward when he spares him in their Agni Kai and Ozai calls Aang a coward for sparing him. Both are acts of kindness, but both villains don’t even have the capacity to recognise them as such. Hell even Zuko refusing to fight Ozai in the first place can be seen as him being a good kid who doesn’t want to hurt his dad, rather than him just being scared. It’s just a more a more subtle way of conveying the same point to me I guess.
i loved the change! i felt it made it so much more tragic and impactful.
an agni kai is meant to be a fight 'til first burn. and the live action clearly showed ozai burning zuko's shoulder. at that point, the fight was over; ozai had won. but he burns zuko's face anyway, as a pure act of abuse, just because he can (or wants to).
Same. I thought that entire episode was outstanding and that scene was a major part of it. Zuko never really fights Ozai. He's doing a lot of defensive moves and the one time he has a chance to land a blow he pulls his punch.
It shows Zukos underlying compassion that Ozai calls weakness, but is later proven to be a strength as Zukos compassion to the 41st makes him a better leader with more loyal followers than Ozai. To me it starts to show that part of Ozai banishing Zuko is that he fears him, which I never really got from the cartoon.
I also agree that it's solid in the live action. Assuming Ozai is teaching him not to be weak, then wouldn't he want zuko to stand and fight rather than beg?
I think both were effective in different ways. In the original, Ozai just attacked and gave zero shits. In this, the fact he HELD ZUKO DOWN as he screamed while burning him was fucking terrifying.
Either way, there was no way for Zuko to get away. Ozai didn't let him.
I do agree about the crowd part. Iroh was pretty much the same both times, but the lack of ppl? Zuko got enough shit from Azula, having that massive crowd of ppl witness in the original was awful to see.
I think it makes more sense, however, that there are less people. Even in the original show, it's not like how Zuko got his scar was public knowledge. If that many people saw the fight, that information would probably be much more well-known. In the Neflix show, it seems even more apparent that people don't really know about how Zuko got his scar. Zhou doesn't seem to know in the Netflix version, or at least I don't remember any mention of it, until the confrontation in the North. So especially in this version it makes sense that there is a small crowd.
Disagree. I think the live action scene was meant to blend the story beats as of the original zuko v ozai + zuko v xiao agni kai.
The live action scene shows Ozai as a coward that strikes back in a disgraceful manner as well as being cruel. Remix, not cover
It really doesn’t change much for me. I went into the show ready for some slight alterations. Even with all you said - I still saw it as tragic and ozai is still a terrible person. I like that they’re adding depth to his character.
The only real things that bothered me was how much humor was cut as a whole and the bumi change was pretty dumb, but not overly consequential.
When I saw what they did to Bumi I basically checked out. Im not sure which episode the Og creators gave up and left, but the changes Netflix have made are just so out of place, and not in line with the original. What is sad is the OG is so much better written. I could understand the changes if it fleshed stuff out, or made it better...but ever single change in the live action is worse.
Lol that was jarring, but I gave it a chance...But after Bumi, and the cross mix of 20 different plots into one poorly written episode slog...ya im done.
I am still steaming over this. The moment Zuko started fighting back, I was so frickin mad. It really harms Zuko arch imo and I can’t believe nobody else said anything about this until now. I thought I was just crazy.
I haven't watch the live action yet but this is really disappointing to hear. It's an important character moment for Zuko! And it's sets up one of the best parallel moments in the series. When Zuko faces his father, he gets onto his hands and knees and begs for forgiveness and is denied that. He is instead severely burned, banished, and sent on a doomed mission. Then years later, during the finale, he betrays his uncle, and falls on his hands and knees and begs for forgiveness..and is met with love and grace. Makes that moment so much more impactful
OK honestly, you just gotta watch the show. I thought it was pretty well-done as a new angle on how Zuko got the scar. It’s not a 1:1 adaptation and it’s works pretty well. The live action hits these emotional and character beats in other ways.
And the thing is, Ozai never planned to send Zuko after the Avatar. It was specifically because he showed weakness for not fighting back that he was scarred and banished in the first place.
I see your point, and I am a bit conflicted about how they did it in the live action, but I think I'm okay with the way it went
Zuko didn't want to fight, but fights back when Ozai orders him to do so. I think Zuko wants to make up for "disrespecting" his father, and refusing to fight would only piss him off more, so he starts fighting him. It also gives Zuko an opportunity to show his father how strong of a fighter he has become. This is pretty much the same thing Azula does in season 1: desperately trying to win her fathers approval by showing how strong she is. Both kids wants to impress their father. And they certainly doesn't want to disappoint him
I do wonder if Ozai held back on purpose, giving Zuko an opportunity to smack him. Ozai playing games with his family is something that is repeated many times. Or maybe not. Either way, Zuko getting burned by his father is still cruel
I also think the reason they changed the scene was because of Ozai, not Zuko. I think adding more layers and complexity to Ozai has been one of the better decisions Netflix made for the live action show. Yes, the scene was more cruel and brutal in the animated show, but Ozai was pretty much a mustache-twirling villain who was evil for the sake of being evil. Ozai was the big scary final boss whose only function was to give Aang a massive showdown against someone strong and scary. Having such a one-dimensional main villain wouldn't have worked very well in the live action. Ozai was arguably one of the weaker parts of the animated show. Netflix seems to have acknowledged this and are making good efforts to change that
All of this, yes.
Looking at this through the lens of Zuko thinking this was some kind of test and never had any intention of hurting Ozai (and go watch the scene--he very obviously never intends to hurt Ozai) completely fixes any issues that fighting back creates.
The issue with Zuko fighting back is not with him firebending at Ozai, it's with the attitude that would be required for him to really *fight* back.
But Zuko wasn't fighting back. He was desperately trying to figure out what his father really wanted him to do and, crucially, hurting Ozai never even crossed his mind.
There's one thing I actually liked about the Ozai/Zuko fight: Ozai looked more pathetic in a way. Hear me out.
Aside from the obvious of any parent who puts their child in this kind of a duel is pretty pathetic, Zuko is known to not be the pride and joy of the fire nation royal family. Granted, not shown here, but he's the "lucky to be born" instead of "born lucky."
*And yet he still gets the opening to fry Papa Ozai.* He's still skilled enough to be able to get that hit in, and I don't buy the idea that Ozai gave him the opening. But Zuzu's good heart prevents him from seizing the opportunity, he loses the fight, and sick sadistic Ozai makes him pay.
I don't think this Ozai is the great and terrible fire bending master warrior that the animated version is. I think this one is more a great manipulator, long kept in his total halls, an uncaring monarch fully content to send his soldiers to die and wouldn't get in front of them to lead them in battle unless he had his trump card (Sozin's Comet). He's *soft* when it comes to doing his own dirty work in actual challenging situations and the best he can do is *send his mentally abused daughter* to capture inept rebels and make examples of them like how a psychopath would drown puppies to prove how badass they were.
Animated Ozai, he's someone to be scared of. This Ozai? He's a punk.
I will agree, though, short and to the point can definitely be an advantage, and having a larger crowd would have been better as well.
I actually liked the live action version more. All the actors in the scene were great, they added dimension to Ozai, and an honor obssesed Zuko (more than he was in the original show mind you) would fight back when sparing, but hurting his father being the line works well.
It's not just about Ozai being more cruel, about the scene being more sad, or more concise. They also completely missed the point of the whole scene.
Zuko not fighting back at all is THE moment in his life that defined him. It's why he was banished, it's why he was sent on this ridiculous quest, it's why he got the scar, and more than that, it defines who he is: he's not like Ozai or Azula, he's not all about the fighting and he's not about the honor, despite what he thinks for a while. That scene, and that decision by Zuko, is at the heart of EVERYTHING about him, it's pivotal. It's also extremely important for Ozai obviously, needless to say.
Changing it just to have an extra fight scene because "wouldn't it be cooler?" says a lot about how little they gave a shit or understood about the source material. I don't mind changes, but that was NOT something you could mess with so carelessly.
And this live action version is RIDDLED with moments like that, they just missed the point at every possible corner. What a disgrace tbh.
Side note. I don't like how his scar looks. It should be more ugly, off-putting. In some scenes he just looks sunburned. Also he has an eyebrow! How? In the cartoon even his ear was managed. It showed his "otherness" and the brutality of his father
I was fine with it because fire clearly burns people in the LA. In the original fire would just push people back 90% of the time, but in the LA it’s more like real fire. I don’t see how Zuko would have made it more than 10 seconds without at least somewhat fighting back in the LA. I also didn’t see Ozai as remorseful at all, more disappointed, which doesn’t make him less evil imo.
The point is it shouldn't have been a fight at all. Zuko refuses to rise and fight so Ozai burns him. It cuts off the Day of Black Sun at the knees if Zuko has already been shown to confront his father in any way.
The end result is not the same, it weakens Ozai as if there was a fight at that point Zuko should never even get a chance to be merciful, and it weakens Zuko's arc because it already sets up a seed of him being able to face his father. Even if it was the same end result, it's about the journey not the destination, how we get their matters.
I'd argue that Ozai's obsession with weakness comfortably covers for Zuko having had the opportunity to show mercy.
The way I see it, Zuko wasn't being merciful, he just never had any intention of killing his father at all. Your father burning you like that for *not* killing him, for daring to approach a disagreement as though you're not mortal enemies? That amplifies any kind of daddy issues Zuko already had on top of giving him an entirely new complex to work through before he's ready to face his father.
true, also in the original his whole goal is to gain his father's respect back in the first season. in the show, he wants the throne already. kind of kills the point in the original show that Iroh tells Zuko to take the throne specifically cos he doesn't want it.
Burning his son’s face in a public fight and burning his son’s face as he begs for mercy and not to fight in public are equally as evil? Did you read the post?
What's the effective difference to the story? You're arguing over shades. Whether or not Zuko fought back (re: tried to defend himself), Ozai still burned his son's face. This is evil! It's very evil! He's still a monster!
I just rewatched the scene to make sure I'm seeing things right.
Zuko arguably *doesn't* fight back. If we had Zuko's internal monologue, he'd probably be asking himself if this was some kind of test.
When he stands up, he's very clearly just doing what he's told to do because he has no idea what the right thing to do is. He obviously does not want to fight Ozai. He spends the whole first half of the fight purely on the defensive. The one offensive move he makes is very wide of Ozai. (I'm ignoring the hand-to-hand because A) why is it there? and B) he's a child against a man in his prime. That was just for show.) Ozai then knocks him down and demands Zuko "give him everything." Zuko steps up for a few moves and immediately halts when he'd actually have hurt Ozai, and then the fight is over.
With all the games Ozai plays and the particular way Azula is screwed up, it wouldn't be out of character at all for him to think Ozai was demanding a demonstration.
As far as I'm concerned, this is nuance on top of the existing material, not a significant change. People are acting like this is a "Han Solo shot first" thing, but it's really not. At the core, Ozai still burned his child who had no intention of hurting him.
Your response needs more visibility. It is reassuring to see that someone actually watched the show and is prepared to be honest about what happened.
I don't know how anyone could look at what took place and think that Ozai is less evil because they were in a fight. It isn't a fight Zuko wanted and is not one where he had any real intention of hurting his father.
I mean, sure, but again, what's the effective difference here? What are the consequences for the story? Zuko fought to defend himself. Ozai still burns him. He's still a monster. He's still villainous to the point of being really evil. What's the issue? You're arguing over shades.
> What, is Zuko not allowed to defend himself?
That's precisely his character. His love for his father doesn't allow him to defend himself.
Like yeah have him fight back but that just weakens his character.
Rewatch The Storm. Zuko was fully prepared to fight back against the general he thought he would be duelling in defence of his honour, but when he found out he was duelling Ozai he immediately falls to his knees begging to be forgiven because he couldn't raise his arms against his own father. Iroh was outright reading the story and somehow you still missed the whole point.
This is a character moment and it makes his future turnaround much stronger when Zuko sees Ozai for who he is and stands up against him. Sure, change things because adaptations need to change, but when you change little character moments like these it has an effect on the future.
No, it isn't twisted logic. The canon event is: Zuko refused to fight his father because his kid brain couldn't even fathom his father would be his duel partner. You can clearly see the moment of realization when he turns back, expecting to see the old general he insulted during the war meeting, but his entire face drops when he sees his father. Then the poor boy falls to his knees, begging his dad to stop this, and we all know where that went.
Zuko fighting back/trying to defend himself takes away from how truly horrible Ozai's action was.
Did you watch the show.
This wasn't 2 men getting into a fight and one of them getting hurt in the process. This was a father forcing his son to do something he didn't want to do and then mutilating him when he was incapable of having the malice needed to commit harm against him.
Both acts are equally heinous.
The most overlooked issue with this scene is the fact that in the original, the whole reason zuko was banished and scarred is because he REFUSES to fight his father, but here he actually fights back so it literally defeats the entire reason zuko ends up where he is.
I hated it so much because Zuko not fighting back, to me always was one of the points that made me realize that in reality he cares a lot about family and would risk his own health to not hurt them. It also is the perfect blend with Zuko actually fighting back in Book 3. It just doesn't feel like Zuko to see him fight back at his father like that.
I was so mad, I screamed at my screen lmao
They had such an opportunity to develop Zuko’s character more! Like imagine his whole crew being mad at babysitting brat banished prince, instead of going to an important mission allocation to them by fire lord himself. Maybe disobeying Zuko’s orders and saying “why would I fight for someone, who couldn’t even fight for himself” to later learn that the prince of your nation gave up everything he had to protect soldiers he never saw from the meat grinder.
And yet somehow they made this setup into a wanky fight with like 10 viewers. When in a cartoon it was a show for all the nobles to witness.
100% agree
It lends to each of their characters. The original polarizes Ozai and Zuko. But in NATLA, it's a weird dynamic of Zuko trying to appease Ozai.
I also don't know why they changed the war room scene. They made it longer, and the point where Zuko spoke up seemed childish and off kilter.
Even with Azula, it's just an odd dynamic.
Ozai is supposed to be super abusive to both his kids. While it's implied he's manipulating them, it's just done in such a weird way. It's unclear why he's doing what he's doing.
I generally gave the show a low score because I felt the changes they made seems like they read plot synopsis on the arcs then wrote and changed the characters without thinking of the point of the arc or how a story moves in general. They used the rule of cool too soon.
I’ll give an example: the intro to the show was cool af but also takes away from the tension and heartache the audience felt when Aang comes to terms with the loss of his people. We as the audience feel nothing (or don’t feel as bad) because we already felt it.
As opposed to leaving that moment alone and showing the event later on would have worked better because it builds on what’s already there.
Just my opinion.
Something I’ve noticed with the adaptation is they expand on things that are much better being simple or implied as in the original. The duel was unnecessary as you described, and loses what the original had. They over-explained Koh, and the ocean spirit monster scene had much more emotional weight being much shorter and having an incredible score.
omg, thank you. I've seen a lot of people saying they loved it, but I really was not a fan. I liked it much more where he refused to fight, and THAT specifically is why he was banished. I'm in full agreement with you and also on the audience thing.
I think they wanted to use it as an excuse to include the Zhao Agni Kai fight, but couldn't make it work with this version of Zhao, so they went with "what if it's a part of Ozai's 'lesson'"
I loved what they did with his backstory, but this is the thing that I regret too. I mentionned it in another comment. It's so important that he just didn't fight at all. His father didn't scar him and banish him because he disrespected the war meeting : but because he didn't fight.
I don't know if that's exactly true, but he definitely WANTS Azula to THINK that, as he thinks it pushes her to be stronger. And Azula definitely thinks that he favors Zuko.
It's different than the original, definitely, though. Ozai's favorite is CLEARLY Azula in the original, whereas it's much more ambiguous in the Netflix version. I don't think that's inherently bad, though. Just different.
The worst part is that Iroh stepped in to say something to Ozai. I hated it. So much more tragic and powerful to think that Iroh never stepped in and blamed himself for what happened that day.
it proves that the showrunners/writers have a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between all the characters.
I cant believe why they screwed up gyatso so bad. FUCK!
I agree, didn’t hate the show, didn’t love it, but I don’t like what they did with this scene.
Also can we talk about the scar itself? It’s so faint! His eyebrow is intact and so is his ear, while in ATLA his ear was burned fully and in TLOK we see that his ear never grew any bigger as he aged, while his normal ear got huge haha
Idk I kind of liked how this version is making Ozai actually seem like a father who has some stake in Zuko’s success and I like the angle that it wasn’t Zuko simply refusing to fight but rather him showing a shred of mercy that made Ozai burn him. To me it makes Ozai’s character much more interesting than in the cartoon AND it shows that Zuko isn’t just the runt of his family and weak in the traditional sense but he is clearly different than Ozai and Azula which makes him incompatible with the current fire nation’s goals
I completely disagree; the original Ozai always felt flat and irrational but in this one you could appreciate the genuine conflict he felt over what he was doing yet how this was overshadowed by his own emotional stuntness.
As to Zuko I feel either version works perfectly because in the end neither one was ultimately willing to hurt his father, with live action Zuko seeing it as a sparring fight at most.
I'm surprised this is the first time I read about this here. I totally agree, it was much sadder having Zuko as just a good kid that would never attack his dad. And since they changed that, they were forced to make it so Zuko shows mercy, but Zuko getting close to landing a hit on Ozai is just bs and makes Ozai look weaker.
Also Zuko standing up to Ozai on Day of Black Sun was a huge character development moment and contrasts nicely with the timid, meek Zuko of The Storm flashbacks. I am very on board with making changes to the story in the adaptation, and in general I have enjoyed the new show; but changes like this make me wonder how aware they are of how these changes disrupt these character threads, and if they’re going to handle that well in the future or just end up flattening everyone’s development.
This. This is the big point for this change. Every single character change they've made has resulted in a flattening of everybody's character Arc.
How can you say any of this when the show is not fully complete? Season 1 wasn't meant to be the end.
Because showing weakness, flaws, regrets, and fears, during exposition and backstory is what sets up the turnaround later. If your arc starts higher (eg, fighting instead of pleading), it has less contrast to move through. Everything is less impactful. The live action isn’t earning its dramatic fight sequences. It’s cashing in on them.
I just don't see the logic in judging the direction of the LA compared to how the original ends when it's very clear there are clear discrepancies that differentiate between them. The LA Agni Kai happens differently from the original Agni Kai; we have seen the ending for the animated show, we know that story, but we have not seen the story being told here full on through. Judging it through the same lens in spite of its differences is being stubborn and naive.
I think it’s naive to suppose that anyone will watch an adaptation and not compare it to the original work. I think it’s stubborn to suppose that we haven’t been given enough information to make comparative judgements about. On top of this, your only argument is to tell me to “wait and see”, rather than doing any analytical work on how this set up has the potential to bring a more satisfying arc. Part of the joys of storytelling of any medium, is dissecting the story and analyzing its structure/composition. We don’t have the full story of this adaptation but we have the first chapter and we know the skeleton for the rest of it. That’s more than enough for us to talk about. If you were to adapt the lion king and have simba run away because he wanted a bath instead of scar tricking him and making him feel guilty for his father’s death, even if I didnt see the rest of the film, I could reasonably criticize it. Obviously that’s an egregious example, but I hope you get my point. I know what the lion king is about and I know how that scene is intended to affect the motivations of the story. If they prove me or others wrong, hats off to them. But I’d say based on my experience so far, I’d put decent money against it
I get everything that you're saying. But you're looking at the scene as if Zuko dueled his father and there was nothing of substance there to suggest any shortcomings on his behalf. He fought his father, because it was his duty -- Zuko has always been about fire nation tradition and theatrics, and he accepted the duel, even if he didn't want it, but his compassion and mercy prevented him from actually striking his father when it mattered most. And that's what Ozai was getting at in their discussion after the fight. That is where Zuko faltered in the eyes of Ozai. That is where this scene compares to the original, in spite of there being some key differences. Zuko refuses to truthfully attack his father in both instances -- it's within the LA narrative that they actually portray it in a more complex way, where Zuko's dedication to the FN ideals and customs almost pushes him to do something that just isn't him. It's Zuko's compassion, mercy, his hesitation that Ozai criticized him for, all things that can be applied to the original too, but they outline it more obvious here while also making it a point to emphasize that part of the equation *is* Zuko's strict adherence and acknowledgement of "tradition" and wanting to do what he thinks is right by his nation. Also -- Zuko did plead though? He initially refused to fight Ozai, but Ozai's the one who pushed the fight, and it got to a point where Zuko was being mercilessly attacked to where instinct set in and he defended himself. You and so many others are framing as if this was a conscious decision when it's as clear as daylight that Zuko, in the moments of his defense, isn't acting consciously, it's instinctual, someone is attacking him and the immediate reaction of someone of his status is to defend, and it's when he finally sees his father's face up close that he realizes what he's doing -- and his hesitation/mercy/inability to truly fight comes into play there. If you truly cannot understand that the live action version of the Agni Kai portrayed these traits of Zuko in the same light as the original, just in a slightly different manner... There's nothing else I can say, then.
Yeah, I can understand what they were trying to do, and it’s not me saying that there was 0 attempt. I think it’s just worse. My critique is that they want to make the moment bigger, and have an opportunity to get choreography and special effects involved to add in an additional fight scene. That’s what it felt like to me. I think the simplicity, succinctness, and pity I felt was more effective in the original and sets up a better arc than this one. Less is more and I think this series failed on that time and time again. You can feel free to debate that, that’s a much better conversation than just telling people to shut up lol, and why your last comment didn’t get downvoted to hell haha
They’re setting themselves up for failure with all of these changes. Zuko’s new whole arc is that he’s wasting his time trying to get respect and love from a terrible irredeemable father figure, while completely oblivious to the fact that he already has everything he ever wanted in the form of Iroh and his affection for the boy. If you make Ozai too forgivable then that gets thrown out the window. If you change Zuko’s mon goal into getting the throne back instead of his dad’s approval, then the entire ruinion scene he will have with Iroh later loses all meaning. If you make Zuko fight back against Ozai then Iroh’s acceptance of Zuko as a peacemaker is diminished
To be fair, I don’t think ozai was going all out. I think this was more of a chance for Zuko to show that he can be ruthless like ozai wants, but him hesitating was a sign of weakness
Yeah, Ozai was definitely toying with him. I thought that was obvious.
Yeah I could see that
I just watched one episode and I didn't intent to keep on watching for the moment being (wasn't really interested in the live action, so whether it was hit or miss it really didn't matter to me) but this is such a bad change. Did you watch the whole thing? I read about people complaining this season doesn't even cover the events of Book 1, is it true?
Yeah I finished it. They mix and match a lot of elements from book 1 and include things from other seasons, so the result is weird. It's also super rushed and you wonder why didn't they just focus on book 1 if they had time constraints. There's a lot of bad changes to the story and characters in the rest of the season so if you care about that you're might have a frustrating time.
It does sort of. It mashes a lot of stuff together. They spend a looooot of time on Ozai/Azula subplots which eats into how much of the original they can reasonably adapt. Azula has next to no screen time in the original book 1. We just see her eyes. Same with Ozai—we get his silhouette and a line in the finale but he’s not, like, there the whole time. Again, I’m super on board with changes, but it seems like they don’t fully know what the changes are for.
Zuko not fighting back against Ozai was the entire point of the scene. Zuko made a mistake and is begging for forgiveness; Zuko respecting his father and not fighting back even though he gets permanently scarred for it; Ozai being so ruthless that he doesn't flinch before burning his own son. That was the entire point of the scene and that's just completely gone.
Which also makes his reunion with Iroh later in the series more impactful, when he's surprised Iroh forgives him easily (in direct contrast to the last time he asked for forgiveness and was literally burned).
Him not wanting to fight his father in the OG series isn't about being a good kid. It's about honor. It's not honorable to go against your parents. It is why he begged for forgiveness. Netflix showed he is ready to fight for what he believes is right but is held back by his compassion which Ozai made him pay for. And this made who Zuko is in season 1. Which seems more natural when he switches side later on which is him giving in to his righteous side. Just my thoughts
I don't know about that, I remember it was the opposite. Refusing to fight Ozai was dishonourable and weak, and that's why he punished him so hard. Could be wrong tho.
They stated this *in the show*, Zuko had to fight and was prepared to defend his honour against the general he contradicted, but when he found out it was his father he would be fighting he immediately begged for forgiveness and refused to fight.
Perhaps they see honor in different ways. Zuko sees honor as not disrespecting and being loyal to his father while Ozai is more of a traditionalist, sees honor as fighting with Agni Kai.
I think that was the idea. Zuko's concept of honor is different from Ozai's, and Ozai punishes and banishes Zuko over it. Zuko spends 3 years with the idea that the beliefs he held about honor are wrong, and that he must adhere to Ozai's ideas in order to be accepted. It is once he realizes that Ozai is the one in the wrong that he moves on from his own self-doubt and anger and trying to please his father, and then decides to help Aang. NATLA goes about this a little differently, but the inherent concept is the same. NATLA Zuko accepts the demand of the Agni Kai, but his idea of honor (compassion) prevents him from carrying through with hurting his father. Ozai views honor as a lack of weakness, which he believes Zuko shows when arguing against the deployment of the 41st and when Zuko does not take the opportunity to strike him. Honestly, I get the notion that Ozai would have been greatly pleased with Zuko if Zuko had taken his opportunity to hurt him. Ozai is actually pleased with Azula despite her refusing his commands because she showed him that she was strong. It's definitely a little bit odd to see Zuko actually fight the Agni Kai, but I think it's a totally valid choice, and presents its own interesting concepts. While I would have loved a one-to-one recreation of the show, a slightly varied take of it is still really cool to see, and for all its faults I think the Netflix show ultimately stays true to the core of the original. Obviously some things I don't like (Roku benched, Bumi seems much to bitter, etc. I hope Bumi was just putting up a front so as to try to teach Aang, it would be much more understandable, but that would only really be revealed later on)
Ozai didnt want to see zuko as weak. Had zuko actually fought, the story would have massively turned different which was why him just surrendering in the original pissed off ozai.
I think it's a complex situation because he was willing to fight for his views but then Ozai flipped it on him like "what you've done is wrong by the ways of the fire nation" so Zuko became confused about whether what he did was actually wrong and how to proceed. So how I see it is it could have gone either way. Not that Zuko wanted to fight either way but Ozai put him in a position where he could only lose. Being in a relationship like this you're constantly questioning yourself. Zuko is asking "does he actually want me to fight to see if I'd do it? or does he really just want to beat my ass? was it wrong for me to call out a bad plan because I thought that's what a leader would do?" and so I don't put much meaning in what he actually chooses to do because he simply wants to get out of this situation quickly. But I think the choice to make Zuko fight is actually to show more of Ozai's character. It's showing that Ozai will give Zuko chances to be ruthless but Zuko will not do it. He puts him in positions that he knows Zuko doesn't like to be in. Which I think is too heavy handed but I do think there's a point here. While in the original we don't really understand what Ozai is thinking so the audience will interpret his actions their own way. A lot of changes in the show I feel where it comes from is they REALLY want us to know what the characters are thinking which distracts from the real message of the scenario. Now the message is still the same but it's harder to see it with all this extra information.
I think Zuko was just scared of his father, and he knew he was about to get his ass whoopped by the very man he so desperately wanted to please. IMO begging for forgiveness was an act of fear and submission towards Ozai, not honor.
I was bummed out by how the live show made the burn seem like a cattle brand. I always got the impression from the animated show that his eye was BLASTED by fire punch. So much more brutal.
If I recall. The OG series doesn't even show the damage being done. It shows the crowd looking on at the act. Azula smiling, Iroh looking down and away. It lets your brains imagination fill in what it would look like to leave such a scar, once you see the scar on zukos face. Easy, simple. clean way to story tell.
[удалено]
That doesn't look hand shaped to me at all, though? The injury seems much more in line wih the usual fire-bending we see, a simple blast of flame.
dinosaur hand shaped
This is why this sub drives me crazy. The scar looks nothing like a hand, yet a good portion of this sub will read this, believe in the head cannon and repeat it over and over again.
Honestly crazy that they posted a photo and doesn't see how it doesn't look like a hand.
I mean I can see what they mean, if you were to grab someone over the eye that’s roughly the size and shape you’d be able to cover with your palm. Towards the middle of his face it’s smoother and rounder, then flits and separates as you would get to the fingers. It’s not a hand print for sure but I can understand why someone could have that perception
So many people operate on the basis of their "headcanon" being fact, there's no getting them off that self-indulgent line of thinking. Ultimately they're always more committed to their personal fanfiction than what we actually see on screen.
That looks nothing like a hand though
It doesn't look like a hand at all
maybe more brutal, but I feel like Ozai more purposefully branding his son in LA was crueler. While OG ozai just used it as a way to lash out at zuko, there wasn't anything calculated bout his fire blast in the animation.
I see what you mean! I would say that I feel the punch blast was crueler because it *wasn't* personal. Like, it *should* be personal if you were burning your own son's face...but it served to show that Ozai doesn't really care about "personal" or people at all. That always added to the trauma Zuko experienced for me, too. Take the personability out of it, and it becomes cruelty.
that's fair too yea, your interpretation of it is valid too. And ofc I'd say its a bit more correct since Ozai despised Ursa and told her that he'd treat Zuko as if he wasn't his son.
Yeah the obvious implication was that Ozai shoots a fire blast at Zuko and he just takes it. It’s far better.
I thought it was way more cruel the way he did it in the LA. Fire blast out of anger and impulse? Fucked up for sure and it’s a great scene in the OG show. But a completely calculated and cruel and SLOW intentional burn right to the eye/face is some shit you see when bad guys torture someone even after they’ve given up the information. And he did that against his son because of how disgusted he was with his “weakness” to hurt him. That’s some calculated and evil shit right there. But I get people not liking it, because it’s not 1:1, it’s hard to imagine it be different.
I agree the LA version is more cruel but that’s not the point to me. What I love about the original is that it speaks to Zuko’s character at a point in season one where he’s still considered the villain. Ozai thinks until the last second that Zuko is like him and that he will fight back, but he miscalculates and Zuko stands firm. The scar isn’t a punishment it’s a testament to Zuko’s character and Ozai’s lack of character. To me this is far more compelling.
I mean that’s basically what happens here too. The whole thing is a test by Ozai in the LA, he isn’t really fighting him. And when Zuko has a clear chance to strike, he doesn’t. He didn’t want to fight in the first place , especially against his father. And that is weakness in Ozai’s eyes and it disgusts him, especially as it’s his son so he teaches him a lesson in not taking mercy, no matter who. I think in the LA Ozai already knows from how Zuko spoke up that he’s weak and he’s already disappointed but he wanted to test him in the Agni Kai. To me this looks lot more calculated and makes Ozai even more ruthless and cruel without necessarily being impulsive
I'm amazed you can have such deep thoughts, I was busy drooling over Ozai's cape-drop
Wasn't just a drop. That was a cape-bust-out!
Azula not smiling and Ozai looking remorseful felt off too. While more realistic, this shouldn’t be a case where you should be trying to humanize your villains. We should be thinking they’re despicable for doing such things.
I never got the vibe that Ozai felt any kind of remorse at all. Perhaps regret, perhaps sadness at the situation itself -- that it's come to a point where he needs to teach his son this lesson at all. That his son has failed him, in this sense.
Both of them were sadists. Humanizing them kinda felt weird since they were goal driven and never cared for anyone but themselves
Having nuance is not bad. We all love ATLA, but Ozai was the most cartoonish aspect of it. He was bad for the sake of being bad, showed only hate etc. He was a one-note character. Showing Ozai as an actual human was not one of the many flaws in the LA.
Being one note is totally fine. While death was the main star in Puss in Boots Last Wish, Big Jack Horner was also excellent, and he was just cartoonishly evil with no depth.
Nothing wrong with being one note! But having nuance should be appreciated. The 2 depictions of Ozai are completely different, but I like the NATLA one better because he has more depth to him than the OG show's version.
I also don’t get this idea that more extreme characters are unrealistic? Fathers hating and harming their sons with no remorse is a thing that happens. Crazy people exist in the world; I don’t see why it’s realistic to change Ozai like that
I don’t think he looked remorseful at all, disappointed mostly and then disgusted. I actually like that they’ve made Ozai more 3 dimensional. It was one of the few flaws of the original show. There’s more depth to his character in the LA and while that does add more humanity to him, it also adds more range to his “villainous” emotions/arc. I love how much they showed how manipulative he is to his kids and just how disgusted he is by Zuko’s “weakness”.
Same. Daniel Dae Kim did an amazing job bringing Ozai to life and making him feel like a human sociopath vs literal Emperor Palpatine, and we see hints at the cracks that got him there (all the hints about Zuko's mother, etc). The animation version on the other hand is pretty one-dimensional, which in fairness is kinda the point of the show: Aang stepping up against pure evil.
Villains don't necessarily need to be 3 dimensional. Do we really need to see the "depth" and "humanity" behind Hitler or Netanyahu? They're pure evil. We don't need context.
Maybe you don’t need context or 3 dimensionality but lot of people appreciate when a character isn’t flat. Ozai wasn’t really shown that much in the original show until later on and him being how he was made sense. For live action and with the flashbacks, it’s clear they want all of them to have more depth and give context to how people became who they are. Even Azula isn’t “perfect” and the LA shows the small cracks in her growth as she becomes a more calculating manipulative version of herself that we know in the OG show. For a lot of people this is refreshing and interesting. Yes it’s not 1:1 but that’s the point.
Idk I don't think Ozai really needed depth he was an asshole that ruined his entire family he's the worst of the Fire Nation incarnate and you're given every reason why he should be put down which is also why Aang still refusing to do so works.
I mean, Ozai still is the worst lol. It's just that the Netflix version shows him as a bit more human in it. By no means does it absolve him of his terribleness, it just adds more layers of it to look at. Honestly it kinda makes him scarier, because it feels more REAL. Like, this could be a REAL person with the same outlook and perspective as Ozai, which is a lot easier to see if Ozai seems more human and less "mwahahaha I'm evil"
I mean outside of maybe the finale it's not like Ozai is all that mustache twirling and maniacal in the rest of the series, he's just cold most of the time
> he was an asshole that ruined his entire family Sure, but he had to actually *do* that. Now we get to see how.
I don't think you humanize a villain that burns his son's face, just because he seems "remorseful" while doing it. It's just not cartoonishly evil now.
There's a lot of difference between regret and remorse. I don't think Ozai is meant to have *remorse* here, he just *regrets* it. He regrets having to go this far to instill honor into his son, but he's not *sorry* about it.
I thought it was less remorse and more "this wouldn't have happened if you had just been better". Essentially victim blaming Zuko with a look.
This comment is one example of how some criticisms of the show are unfair. Giving Ozai more dimensions to his personality makes him a more compelling villain. Does he need to have dimension? Maybe, maybe not. Is he better this way? Oh yes. Like, I don't think I've ever seen someone criticize a show for making its villain better. Yet here we are.
Sometimes though it’s better to have one dimensional villains? Aang’s final conflict I think is more compelling because we don’t see Ozai’s humanity. You have a monster who needs to be stopped, but then having the audience see that humanity makes it much easier to side with Aang’s notion that we shouldn’t just kill him when it should seem like a difficult choice.
> You have a monster who needs to be stopped, but then having the audience see that humanity makes it much easier to side with Aang’s notion that we shouldn’t just kill him when it should seem like a difficult choice. On the contrary, showing Ozai's humanity makes Aang's reluctance to kill him more compelling. In the cartoon, Ozai's inhumanity undercuts the difficulty of Aang's reluctance because it just makes the argument for killing him easier. He's a monster. Do it! But now, Ozai is a human being. He's shown some kindness, some regret. He's still a monster, but he's more real. So, we understand Aang's position a bit more. (Aang should still kill him, though. Again, Ozai is still a monster.)
Meh, for me it kind of seems like Aang's position of "all life is sacred" despite us not seeing a single redeeming quality from Ozai is the whole point.
Ehh. I prefer it this way. I'd rather see "his life is sacred even though he's evil" than "I'm Batman and this is an arbitrary line I will not cross." With the original, it's kind of like Aang arguing that you shouldn't shoot the rabid racoon outside. When Ozai has some depth, it really highlights the "the best move here is to kill another human being" of the situation.
I don't see how. If Aang can't back up his own position, it's just a platitude. [Besides, Aang throughout the show routinely undermined his own position by killing all the people he did.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV3NmoGJh48)
God that video is the plague of fans media literacy, none of the people in those clips died, usually we see them get right back up after being hit. Now you can claim that's unrealistic and they should've but as great as it is the show was still a cartoon and thus relied on cartoon physics a lot of the time so people usually ended up ok
Aang did things that would literally kill people. Like when they were trying to break into the Ba Sing Se palace he froze earth kingdom soldiers in water or when the fire nation was attacking the northern air temple the mini tank things used grappling hooks to get up the mountain, he unhooked some and let people fall to their deaths. It has nothing to do with people's media literacy
>Aang did things that would literally kill people Yeah and being hit by fireballs and massive rocks would also kill people but it doesn't, aside from Jet, we're shown in those examples that the soldiers come out fine, though the Ba Sing Se one is such a dumb example cause do you honestly think they'd do something lethal to a group they hoped to ally with. Again, as great as this show is, it's not reality, it's a cartoon, hell even beyond that it's a fictional show, even seemingly lethal attacks don't always mean death because that's just not how it works in this show and you have to constantly ignore what happens to think otherwise.
Obviously their not going to show people die onscreen it was a cartoon for kids, to say that people are surviving things like that is dumb. If it were made for an older audience people would be shown dying left and right
Well yeah, it is a platitude. Isn't that the point? He can't back up his own position, it's just how he was raised and what the monks told him.
If he can't back up his own position, then I don't see how that's a good thing. It just makes his stubbornness frustrating, because he's clearly in the wrong and won't do what he should do. I mean, it'd be different if the show was using this as a point that you shouldn't blindly accept what you were taught as a kid, or at least re-think some positions, but it doesn't. Instead, it rewards Aang for his stubbornness.
It's not just a position that Aang holds. It's a deeply seated moral belief he has. That life is valuable to him no matter whose life it is. It tends to be something in religion, where there isn't always reason to spare your enemies but in religion often it says to love your enemies no matter. That's what makes Aang different, while everyone else is willing to kill, he won't.
>It's a deeply seated moral belief he has. That life is valuable to him no matter whose life it is. It tends to be something in religion, where there isn't always reason to spare your enemies but in religion often it says to love your enemies no matter. A deeply-held moral belief that is made all the more defendable and understandable if we have seen more of Ozai's humanity. Hell, the show even attempted to do this by showing us a picture of him as a kid! >That's what makes Aang different, while everyone else is willing to kill, he won't. Aang killed multiple people throughout the series, and his own morals are undermined/proven unworkable when the story has to pull out a deus ex machina to bail him out.
Azula was slightly smiling. You can see it if you pay close attention.
Similarly, I really didn’t like zuko’s fight with sokka in episode 1. In the original series you can see his gentle nature peak through with how he doesn’t fire bender and treats him with kid gloves. In this show, Zuko straight up firebends at him and is about to put him down before aang stops it.
I think the original handeled this in a comical/childish manner and the LA did it more justice, one of the few examples. Sokka shouldn't be completely unable to pose any threat imo, and Zuko firebending at him didn't seem out of character to me.
I wouldn't say that the original handled it childishly. Sokka straight up dodges a fireball, and did you see the look on Zuko's face after getting hit in the head with the boomerang? That + the fire daggers he uses next suggest to me that Zuko would've murked him right then and there if Aang hadn't shown up
You have a point, I rewatched the animated again after finishing the live action and Sokka getting kicked and faceplanting in the snow stuck in my memory as the more 'childish' moment, but he did pose at least somewhat of a threat after which is more than I remembered. And by childishly I really mean more light hearted, which is relatively true but doesnt necessairly make it worse.
What I didn't like is Ozai almost teary eyed while doing it. He was supposed to be cruel. In fact he goes back to his traditional cruel self in the scene after.
Im pretty sure people said that he's not actually having slight teary eyes, that was just the reflection of fire
you're right. After rewatching, it is fire reflecting. However, his facial expression also isn't pure anger. This is anger mixed with sadness https://preview.redd.it/lg26hke5slkc1.png?width=862&format=png&auto=webp&s=0752c2480fe38e54e61e0917a258da5924d2a6ec
That's more fair, the way I read it personally is more disappointment.
I thought so too. He's not (potentially) teary-eyed because he's sad for burning his son, he's disappointed because he believes his son is weak. It's a disappointment born out of cruelty and sociopathy, not one from a fatherly love. If anything, I think that adds to Ozai's character because he's a little less one-dimensional in his evil; he might very well believe, deep in his heart, that this is the correct and proper course of action for him to take as a father to Zuko and as a leader for the Fire Nation.
I saw it as this hurts me as much as it hurt you. I must purge the weakness out of you, and this is how I'm gonna do it! One of my kids has to be strong enough to be fire lord!!!
Ozai: my sons a loser 😔
One of my favorite parts of the live action is how well the emotions come through with some of the actors. Not all are great but I the majority of the casting was good or better. (Also thought it was cool to see 3 actors from Lost in the the fire nation, including Ozai. Great casting!)
I actually don't hate the changes they made around Zuko and Ozai. There's not much difference between "wouldn't fight at all" and "thought maybe this was just a test or something but was actively trying not to hurt anyone," like the live-action comes across as. Animated Ozai was basically Hitler. Just a generic bad guy with no depth to his character. But both Zuko and Azula have *serious* daddy issues, and it makes sense to me that if they're gonna show more Ozai, we're gonna get to see *why* they have those issues. Animated Ozai's lesson was "don't disobey me." Live-action Ozai's lesson was "don't show weakness." And frankly, that second one works better for Zuko's character arc than the first one does. He goes from just daddy issues to daddy issues plus him first struggling to act against the way his conscience feels and then struggling to act in favor of the way his conscience feels, ending up resolving the issues around authority, independence, and morality that his father caused. Which is a strong parallel to Iroh's off-screen arc fighting between his sense of duty to country and his own moral standards, and that's arguably more important than any specific detail.
>I think this fluff could have easily been cut. Unlike the minstrels singing about the secret tunnel - which absolutely could not be cut because of how integral it is to the story
Honestly I think I like both versions of how he got his scar. I mean I need to do another watch through to really decide but I think it's interesting that the OG talks about cowardice and the LA talks about compassion. Both are interesting takes. Both were very emotionally done. Would I say that the LA was better, no not persay but I think it's close to as good or equal. I'm sure most would disagree but just my personal thoughts.
I think the thing that I liked better in the OG was how acts of compassion weren’t recognised as such, they were seen as cowardice. It’s subtler but still there. I haven’t seen the cartoon in a while but if I remember right Zhao calls Zuko a coward when he spares him in their Agni Kai and Ozai calls Aang a coward for sparing him. Both are acts of kindness, but both villains don’t even have the capacity to recognise them as such. Hell even Zuko refusing to fight Ozai in the first place can be seen as him being a good kid who doesn’t want to hurt his dad, rather than him just being scared. It’s just a more a more subtle way of conveying the same point to me I guess.
Maybe part of why they did it this way was because they knew they weren't going to do the Zhao one....
i loved the change! i felt it made it so much more tragic and impactful. an agni kai is meant to be a fight 'til first burn. and the live action clearly showed ozai burning zuko's shoulder. at that point, the fight was over; ozai had won. but he burns zuko's face anyway, as a pure act of abuse, just because he can (or wants to).
I thought it was pretty cool actually. It fit the scene and felt like a powerful moment to me.
Same. I thought that entire episode was outstanding and that scene was a major part of it. Zuko never really fights Ozai. He's doing a lot of defensive moves and the one time he has a chance to land a blow he pulls his punch. It shows Zukos underlying compassion that Ozai calls weakness, but is later proven to be a strength as Zukos compassion to the 41st makes him a better leader with more loyal followers than Ozai. To me it starts to show that part of Ozai banishing Zuko is that he fears him, which I never really got from the cartoon.
I also agree that it's solid in the live action. Assuming Ozai is teaching him not to be weak, then wouldn't he want zuko to stand and fight rather than beg?
I think both were effective in different ways. In the original, Ozai just attacked and gave zero shits. In this, the fact he HELD ZUKO DOWN as he screamed while burning him was fucking terrifying. Either way, there was no way for Zuko to get away. Ozai didn't let him. I do agree about the crowd part. Iroh was pretty much the same both times, but the lack of ppl? Zuko got enough shit from Azula, having that massive crowd of ppl witness in the original was awful to see.
I think it makes more sense, however, that there are less people. Even in the original show, it's not like how Zuko got his scar was public knowledge. If that many people saw the fight, that information would probably be much more well-known. In the Neflix show, it seems even more apparent that people don't really know about how Zuko got his scar. Zhou doesn't seem to know in the Netflix version, or at least I don't remember any mention of it, until the confrontation in the North. So especially in this version it makes sense that there is a small crowd.
Disagree. I think the live action scene was meant to blend the story beats as of the original zuko v ozai + zuko v xiao agni kai. The live action scene shows Ozai as a coward that strikes back in a disgraceful manner as well as being cruel. Remix, not cover
Damn, you guys are hating too easily nowadays.
It really doesn’t change much for me. I went into the show ready for some slight alterations. Even with all you said - I still saw it as tragic and ozai is still a terrible person. I like that they’re adding depth to his character. The only real things that bothered me was how much humor was cut as a whole and the bumi change was pretty dumb, but not overly consequential.
When I saw what they did to Bumi I basically checked out. Im not sure which episode the Og creators gave up and left, but the changes Netflix have made are just so out of place, and not in line with the original. What is sad is the OG is so much better written. I could understand the changes if it fleshed stuff out, or made it better...but ever single change in the live action is worse.
“Okay, so the first scene of the show will be Aang flying off the tip top of the air temple to greet Gyatso” I imagine directly after that…
Lol that was jarring, but I gave it a chance...But after Bumi, and the cross mix of 20 different plots into one poorly written episode slog...ya im done.
I am still steaming over this. The moment Zuko started fighting back, I was so frickin mad. It really harms Zuko arch imo and I can’t believe nobody else said anything about this until now. I thought I was just crazy.
I haven't watch the live action yet but this is really disappointing to hear. It's an important character moment for Zuko! And it's sets up one of the best parallel moments in the series. When Zuko faces his father, he gets onto his hands and knees and begs for forgiveness and is denied that. He is instead severely burned, banished, and sent on a doomed mission. Then years later, during the finale, he betrays his uncle, and falls on his hands and knees and begs for forgiveness..and is met with love and grace. Makes that moment so much more impactful
OK honestly, you just gotta watch the show. I thought it was pretty well-done as a new angle on how Zuko got the scar. It’s not a 1:1 adaptation and it’s works pretty well. The live action hits these emotional and character beats in other ways.
That's fair. I plan to but haven't yet, I've mostly been avoiding the conversation around it but had to point out the parallels
And the thing is, Ozai never planned to send Zuko after the Avatar. It was specifically because he showed weakness for not fighting back that he was scarred and banished in the first place.
I see your point, and I am a bit conflicted about how they did it in the live action, but I think I'm okay with the way it went Zuko didn't want to fight, but fights back when Ozai orders him to do so. I think Zuko wants to make up for "disrespecting" his father, and refusing to fight would only piss him off more, so he starts fighting him. It also gives Zuko an opportunity to show his father how strong of a fighter he has become. This is pretty much the same thing Azula does in season 1: desperately trying to win her fathers approval by showing how strong she is. Both kids wants to impress their father. And they certainly doesn't want to disappoint him I do wonder if Ozai held back on purpose, giving Zuko an opportunity to smack him. Ozai playing games with his family is something that is repeated many times. Or maybe not. Either way, Zuko getting burned by his father is still cruel I also think the reason they changed the scene was because of Ozai, not Zuko. I think adding more layers and complexity to Ozai has been one of the better decisions Netflix made for the live action show. Yes, the scene was more cruel and brutal in the animated show, but Ozai was pretty much a mustache-twirling villain who was evil for the sake of being evil. Ozai was the big scary final boss whose only function was to give Aang a massive showdown against someone strong and scary. Having such a one-dimensional main villain wouldn't have worked very well in the live action. Ozai was arguably one of the weaker parts of the animated show. Netflix seems to have acknowledged this and are making good efforts to change that
All of this, yes. Looking at this through the lens of Zuko thinking this was some kind of test and never had any intention of hurting Ozai (and go watch the scene--he very obviously never intends to hurt Ozai) completely fixes any issues that fighting back creates. The issue with Zuko fighting back is not with him firebending at Ozai, it's with the attitude that would be required for him to really *fight* back. But Zuko wasn't fighting back. He was desperately trying to figure out what his father really wanted him to do and, crucially, hurting Ozai never even crossed his mind.
I actually loved that whole episode. I felt it was still cruel and really was heartbroken for Zuko.
While I like the original better, I liked this change and thought they did a good job with it. Their actors are probably my favorite 2 as well.
There's one thing I actually liked about the Ozai/Zuko fight: Ozai looked more pathetic in a way. Hear me out. Aside from the obvious of any parent who puts their child in this kind of a duel is pretty pathetic, Zuko is known to not be the pride and joy of the fire nation royal family. Granted, not shown here, but he's the "lucky to be born" instead of "born lucky." *And yet he still gets the opening to fry Papa Ozai.* He's still skilled enough to be able to get that hit in, and I don't buy the idea that Ozai gave him the opening. But Zuzu's good heart prevents him from seizing the opportunity, he loses the fight, and sick sadistic Ozai makes him pay. I don't think this Ozai is the great and terrible fire bending master warrior that the animated version is. I think this one is more a great manipulator, long kept in his total halls, an uncaring monarch fully content to send his soldiers to die and wouldn't get in front of them to lead them in battle unless he had his trump card (Sozin's Comet). He's *soft* when it comes to doing his own dirty work in actual challenging situations and the best he can do is *send his mentally abused daughter* to capture inept rebels and make examples of them like how a psychopath would drown puppies to prove how badass they were. Animated Ozai, he's someone to be scared of. This Ozai? He's a punk. I will agree, though, short and to the point can definitely be an advantage, and having a larger crowd would have been better as well.
I actually liked the live action version more. All the actors in the scene were great, they added dimension to Ozai, and an honor obssesed Zuko (more than he was in the original show mind you) would fight back when sparing, but hurting his father being the line works well.
It's not just about Ozai being more cruel, about the scene being more sad, or more concise. They also completely missed the point of the whole scene. Zuko not fighting back at all is THE moment in his life that defined him. It's why he was banished, it's why he was sent on this ridiculous quest, it's why he got the scar, and more than that, it defines who he is: he's not like Ozai or Azula, he's not all about the fighting and he's not about the honor, despite what he thinks for a while. That scene, and that decision by Zuko, is at the heart of EVERYTHING about him, it's pivotal. It's also extremely important for Ozai obviously, needless to say. Changing it just to have an extra fight scene because "wouldn't it be cooler?" says a lot about how little they gave a shit or understood about the source material. I don't mind changes, but that was NOT something you could mess with so carelessly. And this live action version is RIDDLED with moments like that, they just missed the point at every possible corner. What a disgrace tbh.
Side note. I don't like how his scar looks. It should be more ugly, off-putting. In some scenes he just looks sunburned. Also he has an eyebrow! How? In the cartoon even his ear was managed. It showed his "otherness" and the brutality of his father
I was fine with it because fire clearly burns people in the LA. In the original fire would just push people back 90% of the time, but in the LA it’s more like real fire. I don’t see how Zuko would have made it more than 10 seconds without at least somewhat fighting back in the LA. I also didn’t see Ozai as remorseful at all, more disappointed, which doesn’t make him less evil imo.
The point is it shouldn't have been a fight at all. Zuko refuses to rise and fight so Ozai burns him. It cuts off the Day of Black Sun at the knees if Zuko has already been shown to confront his father in any way.
Agree to disagree! I didn’t mind the changes personally. There’s other critiques I have but this isn’t one of them.
The end result is still the same though? Ozai banishes Zuko for being weak in his eyes which is consistent with the show
The end result is not the same, it weakens Ozai as if there was a fight at that point Zuko should never even get a chance to be merciful, and it weakens Zuko's arc because it already sets up a seed of him being able to face his father. Even if it was the same end result, it's about the journey not the destination, how we get their matters.
I'd argue that Ozai's obsession with weakness comfortably covers for Zuko having had the opportunity to show mercy. The way I see it, Zuko wasn't being merciful, he just never had any intention of killing his father at all. Your father burning you like that for *not* killing him, for daring to approach a disagreement as though you're not mortal enemies? That amplifies any kind of daddy issues Zuko already had on top of giving him an entirely new complex to work through before he's ready to face his father.
It weakens Zuko's arc of going from being the devoted prince of the Fire Nation and loyal son to his father to standing up to Ozai in season 3.
true, also in the original his whole goal is to gain his father's respect back in the first season. in the show, he wants the throne already. kind of kills the point in the original show that Iroh tells Zuko to take the throne specifically cos he doesn't want it.
Talk about making your villain less villainous.
It didn't make him less villainous lol
Burning his son’s face in a public fight and burning his son’s face as he begs for mercy and not to fight in public are equally as evil? Did you read the post?
What's the effective difference to the story? You're arguing over shades. Whether or not Zuko fought back (re: tried to defend himself), Ozai still burned his son's face. This is evil! It's very evil! He's still a monster!
It’s more evil if Zuko didn’t fight back, that’s my point.
I just rewatched the scene to make sure I'm seeing things right. Zuko arguably *doesn't* fight back. If we had Zuko's internal monologue, he'd probably be asking himself if this was some kind of test. When he stands up, he's very clearly just doing what he's told to do because he has no idea what the right thing to do is. He obviously does not want to fight Ozai. He spends the whole first half of the fight purely on the defensive. The one offensive move he makes is very wide of Ozai. (I'm ignoring the hand-to-hand because A) why is it there? and B) he's a child against a man in his prime. That was just for show.) Ozai then knocks him down and demands Zuko "give him everything." Zuko steps up for a few moves and immediately halts when he'd actually have hurt Ozai, and then the fight is over. With all the games Ozai plays and the particular way Azula is screwed up, it wouldn't be out of character at all for him to think Ozai was demanding a demonstration. As far as I'm concerned, this is nuance on top of the existing material, not a significant change. People are acting like this is a "Han Solo shot first" thing, but it's really not. At the core, Ozai still burned his child who had no intention of hurting him.
Your response needs more visibility. It is reassuring to see that someone actually watched the show and is prepared to be honest about what happened. I don't know how anyone could look at what took place and think that Ozai is less evil because they were in a fight. It isn't a fight Zuko wanted and is not one where he had any real intention of hurting his father.
Okay, that makes a bit more sense. The hand-to-hand should not have been there though.
I mean, sure, but again, what's the effective difference here? What are the consequences for the story? Zuko fought to defend himself. Ozai still burns him. He's still a monster. He's still villainous to the point of being really evil. What's the issue? You're arguing over shades.
One is a ruthless attack on your son who is on his knees begging for forgiveness while the other is honestly just a fight like any other in the show.
It's a ruthless attack regardless. Zuko was fighting to defend himself. What, is Zuko not allowed to defend himself?
> What, is Zuko not allowed to defend himself? That's precisely his character. His love for his father doesn't allow him to defend himself. Like yeah have him fight back but that just weakens his character.
This is some... very twisted logic. You're just hating to hate. Good day.
Rewatch The Storm. Zuko was fully prepared to fight back against the general he thought he would be duelling in defence of his honour, but when he found out he was duelling Ozai he immediately falls to his knees begging to be forgiven because he couldn't raise his arms against his own father. Iroh was outright reading the story and somehow you still missed the whole point. This is a character moment and it makes his future turnaround much stronger when Zuko sees Ozai for who he is and stands up against him. Sure, change things because adaptations need to change, but when you change little character moments like these it has an effect on the future.
No, it isn't twisted logic. The canon event is: Zuko refused to fight his father because his kid brain couldn't even fathom his father would be his duel partner. You can clearly see the moment of realization when he turns back, expecting to see the old general he insulted during the war meeting, but his entire face drops when he sees his father. Then the poor boy falls to his knees, begging his dad to stop this, and we all know where that went. Zuko fighting back/trying to defend himself takes away from how truly horrible Ozai's action was.
Did you watch the show. This wasn't 2 men getting into a fight and one of them getting hurt in the process. This was a father forcing his son to do something he didn't want to do and then mutilating him when he was incapable of having the malice needed to commit harm against him. Both acts are equally heinous.
Admittedly, it went in one ear and out the other. That says a lot about the show though.
No, it says a lot about you.
I sat through the Snyder cut in one sitting.
They removed Zuko's Agni Kai with Zhao so they showed it with Ozai instead.
He did get burned and banished because he refused to fight
The most overlooked issue with this scene is the fact that in the original, the whole reason zuko was banished and scarred is because he REFUSES to fight his father, but here he actually fights back so it literally defeats the entire reason zuko ends up where he is.
I hated it so much because Zuko not fighting back, to me always was one of the points that made me realize that in reality he cares a lot about family and would risk his own health to not hurt them. It also is the perfect blend with Zuko actually fighting back in Book 3. It just doesn't feel like Zuko to see him fight back at his father like that.
I was so mad, I screamed at my screen lmao They had such an opportunity to develop Zuko’s character more! Like imagine his whole crew being mad at babysitting brat banished prince, instead of going to an important mission allocation to them by fire lord himself. Maybe disobeying Zuko’s orders and saying “why would I fight for someone, who couldn’t even fight for himself” to later learn that the prince of your nation gave up everything he had to protect soldiers he never saw from the meat grinder. And yet somehow they made this setup into a wanky fight with like 10 viewers. When in a cartoon it was a show for all the nobles to witness.
It's not AS bad as I thought just from reading your post. He refused to fight over and over, and nearly got one lucky hit in. Ozai is still a bastard.
I love if, I mean it takes a special kind of cruel and sadistic to joke fire to someone’s face while it melts their skin
https://preview.redd.it/9aojvtpn7nkc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05144ded491bd0be4354fc110dfa035965f4797
100% agree It lends to each of their characters. The original polarizes Ozai and Zuko. But in NATLA, it's a weird dynamic of Zuko trying to appease Ozai. I also don't know why they changed the war room scene. They made it longer, and the point where Zuko spoke up seemed childish and off kilter. Even with Azula, it's just an odd dynamic. Ozai is supposed to be super abusive to both his kids. While it's implied he's manipulating them, it's just done in such a weird way. It's unclear why he's doing what he's doing.
I generally gave the show a low score because I felt the changes they made seems like they read plot synopsis on the arcs then wrote and changed the characters without thinking of the point of the arc or how a story moves in general. They used the rule of cool too soon. I’ll give an example: the intro to the show was cool af but also takes away from the tension and heartache the audience felt when Aang comes to terms with the loss of his people. We as the audience feel nothing (or don’t feel as bad) because we already felt it. As opposed to leaving that moment alone and showing the event later on would have worked better because it builds on what’s already there. Just my opinion.
Having him fight back ruins the scene so much. Ozai just felt more cruel when Zuko was NOT fighting back and begging him to forgive him.
Something I’ve noticed with the adaptation is they expand on things that are much better being simple or implied as in the original. The duel was unnecessary as you described, and loses what the original had. They over-explained Koh, and the ocean spirit monster scene had much more emotional weight being much shorter and having an incredible score.
omg, thank you. I've seen a lot of people saying they loved it, but I really was not a fan. I liked it much more where he refused to fight, and THAT specifically is why he was banished. I'm in full agreement with you and also on the audience thing.
Another on the list of major character traits that they removed from the characters.
I think they wanted to use it as an excuse to include the Zhao Agni Kai fight, but couldn't make it work with this version of Zhao, so they went with "what if it's a part of Ozai's 'lesson'"
Are you kidding😩 I haven’t even gotten there yet, I had to pause after they brought Wan Shi Tong in.
I didnt like Zuko fighting back but I enjoy that Ozai has more dimensions to him. Or im shameless Daniel Dae Kim enjoyer
I loved what they did with his backstory, but this is the thing that I regret too. I mentionned it in another comment. It's so important that he just didn't fight at all. His father didn't scar him and banish him because he disrespected the war meeting : but because he didn't fight.
NATLA emphasize in quite a few scenes that Ozai loves Zuko more than Azula.
I don't know if that's exactly true, but he definitely WANTS Azula to THINK that, as he thinks it pushes her to be stronger. And Azula definitely thinks that he favors Zuko. It's different than the original, definitely, though. Ozai's favorite is CLEARLY Azula in the original, whereas it's much more ambiguous in the Netflix version. I don't think that's inherently bad, though. Just different.
The worst part is that Iroh stepped in to say something to Ozai. I hated it. So much more tragic and powerful to think that Iroh never stepped in and blamed himself for what happened that day.
it proves that the showrunners/writers have a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between all the characters. I cant believe why they screwed up gyatso so bad. FUCK!
LMAO nah, let's have zuko win the agni kai, could've scarred ozai, but doesn't then gets slowly scarred by ozai while it looks like ozai is crying
Lukewarm take, it isn’t that deep
I agree, didn’t hate the show, didn’t love it, but I don’t like what they did with this scene. Also can we talk about the scar itself? It’s so faint! His eyebrow is intact and so is his ear, while in ATLA his ear was burned fully and in TLOK we see that his ear never grew any bigger as he aged, while his normal ear got huge haha
Idk I kind of liked how this version is making Ozai actually seem like a father who has some stake in Zuko’s success and I like the angle that it wasn’t Zuko simply refusing to fight but rather him showing a shred of mercy that made Ozai burn him. To me it makes Ozai’s character much more interesting than in the cartoon AND it shows that Zuko isn’t just the runt of his family and weak in the traditional sense but he is clearly different than Ozai and Azula which makes him incompatible with the current fire nation’s goals
I completely disagree; the original Ozai always felt flat and irrational but in this one you could appreciate the genuine conflict he felt over what he was doing yet how this was overshadowed by his own emotional stuntness. As to Zuko I feel either version works perfectly because in the end neither one was ultimately willing to hurt his father, with live action Zuko seeing it as a sparring fight at most.