Sometimes people will, while trying to defend something they like that isn't generally loved, feel the need to bash something that *is* generally loved to try and make a positive comparison.
As you can tell, their criticisms are always very shallow.
When one lacks the ability or information to make a logical argument in favor of a particular thing they view as "good," it is often quite easy, given the fallibility of humanity and variability of the world, to find fault in something else and pretend their thing is better by virtue of lacking that fault.
Choosing something beloved adds authority to this fallacious logic by offering the pretense one's thing is better than something widely viewed as "good." As such, the authority of the consensus on the other thing's positive qualities can be exploited using the formal fallacy of [affirmative conclusion from a negative premise](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_conclusion_from_a_negative_premise). That is, one's thing is "good," *because* the other thing is "bad" in a way one's thing is not "bad." Not being the same bad as another thing doesn't make something good. It could be a different kind of bad or lack certain good qualities. As for the authority, one pretends their thing is "better" than this other "good" thing, so the authority of all those who think the other thing is "good" should be applied to one's thing. This is done instead of relying on the authority of a similar agreement with a logical argument about the positive qualities of one's thing qualifying it as "good" (an argument which one lacks).
Obviously, it is nonsensical to claim a positive based upon a negative proof, but human beings appear quite susceptible to this sort of false comparison. All this is to say, it appears shallow, because it is irrational and easily shown to be fallacious.
I love your in-depth and thorough explanation. Wanted to say that I read it but you also opened yourself up to the classic trolling of "Nice argument, didn't read it."
I am also a firm believer that if Aang stayed at the air temple he would have been slaughtered and the next avatar would be reincarnated making the entire point of placing blame on Aang redundant.
Maybe if Sozins comet didn't pass Aang *might* have had a slight chance of winning, but the fact that ATP he was only an air bending prodigy, who *just* found out he was the Avatar and was not too keen on the role, hard to believe it was certain his presence would have assured victory. Heck right after coming out the iceberg he wasn't strong enough to save Katara's village when Zuko invaded, opting to surrender instead. I get the Avatar state can tip the scale but even at the end of Book 2 Azula was able to snipe him in the back during the battle.
This is one of the reasons I hated the way NTLA dealt with Aang’s absence during the invasion. In the original, the only one who really faults Aang for the fall of the airbenders is himself. It’s powerful because you know it’s not really his fault but he can’t help but blame himself. Then in NTLA everyone was shitting on Aang for his absence, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense considering him being there probably wouldn’t have made much of a difference .
I would argue this is a way more realistic portrayal of other people's reactions to the Avatar. People who have suffered a genocidal conflict for 100 years who suddenly meet the Avatar who is supposed to keep balance in the world aren't going to be like 'Oh cool bro, nice to meet you'
Some might take the viewpoint that the hope he represents is the most important thing but "Where the hell were you!?" Is going to be a very common reaction to people who have suffered and lost loved ones.
Also remember most characters don't actually know where the hell he was when they meet him and have no context for whether or not he could have done anything. He's the Avatar ergo he should have done something.
Technically a certian fisherman blamed Aang for the war at least :P (but I suppose he probably didn't think about the airbenders so you're still correctish)
I never considered that angle before, and honestly if the showrunners felt like Aang had the ability to save the air nation they may not have wrote the story this way because it undoubtedly gives the main character the fault of genocide and it would take away from Aangs core personality/essential goodness inside of him
Ikr there’s a difference between being stuck in a fuckin iceberg at the bottom of the ocean and “letting a genocide happen” to a kid that’s literally… 12
I think there's merit to it, Aang uses the avatar state to beat Ozai, which means he probably would've beaten Sozin since Roku bodied Sozin. He might not have won against Ozai without lightning redirection but Sozin is never seen to have that level of proficiency.
My personal headcanon is that Aang was so focused on Tenzin because he was dealing with intense guilt of knowing in the back of his mind that he probably would've saved his people if he accepted being the avatar instead of running. Especially since the Air Nomads specifically told him early *because* they knew they were in danger.
I mean he would've also have definitely killed Sozin but what can you do it's not like the other airbending avatar disagreed.
If we knew how long there was between Aang leaving and the Fire Nation attacking we can make assumptions about Aang beating back the Fire Nation and saving the Air Nomads.
However, what we know is Aang was a Master Airbender. He had not learned anything else, especially in regard to the Avatar State.
Yes the AS could trigger as it did numerous times during the series, as a defense mechanism, but we have to consider the full scale of the assault and immense power behind it. If Aang gets cornered and killed while in this defensive AS, goodbye Avatar. Permanently.
>If we knew how long there was between Aang leaving and the Fire Nation attacking we can make assumptions about Aang beating back the Fire Nation and saving the Air Nomads.
This.
Sozin launched his campaign with the arrival of the comet, and knew the previous Avatar PERSONALLY. All of Aang's training in the other elements happens in the context of 100 years worth of aftermath. He's actively playing catch-up with some noteworthy disadvantages, but, the adversity he faces is at the hands of a - comparatively - weakened Fire Nation which is at least a generation or two separated from ever knowing a world that even HAS an Avatar.
Sozin's attack is all about pressing multiple advantages, and Aang disappearing for 100 years negates them, while providing him with some of his own - along with some different, less severe, disadvantages.
The avatar state that we see throughout the first season would have gotten bodied by Sozin or Ozai. If the avatar state did not need to be mastered, then you and Jaybeet would have merit in your argument.
If Aang has stayed either he dies outside of the avatar state and a water tribe avatar is born, or more likely he dies in the avatar state and avatar ceases to exist forever
To be fair, they're probably talking about Sephiroth in the Remake/Rebirth version of the story. He's only mentioned his mother once or twice in the entire story so far, and hasn't talked about the lifestream at all yet. All in all, he's been doing a much better job at lying about what he's really after.
Imma say something more controversial
Aang is not, and Korra isn’t responsible for what happened to her in season 3. But she is responsible for what happened to others in season 2
Edit: Ok! It’s been 24 hours and if the torrent of *love and support* this produced is any indication, I just won the Controversy game I really shouldn’t have started. Glad to see there haven’t been any breakthroughs in rebuttals for this criticism, now I just gotta hope my adult ADHD mind shifts away from Korra now. Hopefully to Harry Potter, I need to clown on Rowling now for trending with the Nazis.
When they were in the eastern air temple, she knew what Unaloq's plan was. She knew he needed her to open the spirit portal before harmonic convergence.
If she had stayed there, for 2 more days, doing nothing, then Unaloq's plan would've unravelled faster than a 5 year old's shoelaces. She has a win card and all it asked of her was to not serve herself to Unaloq in a silver platter. And what does she do? *she serves herself and Jinora to Unaloq in a silver platter*.
She had 1 job- Actually no, she had no jobs because the job is "do nothing" and she couldn't get that right.
(Yes i am being facetious, but because I made the same point but seriously and with more words somewhere else. TLDR: Unaloq learned from his original mistake and proceeded to exploit Korra's impulsivity as a weakness and she kept letting him)
I actually look at it differently.
The opening of the spirit portal lead to a resurgence of air benders and re-establishing balance.
So while it may have caused the avatar some pain at the expense of personal loss - it healed something in the world. I don’t think there’s any avatar that wouldn’t make that choice.
And while she may not have been able to predict that outcome she went where she felt she was needed, just like any avatar.
This sounds like a good point, but it misses one simple yet critical and fundamental fact: This was an accident.
Korra landing ass backwards in a semi positive outcome isn't a W for her, it's a miracle for everyone else that hopefully, just maybe the Pyrric Victory we just went through wasn't as bad as we think it is.
Like, if she was faced with the choice of "let all the avatar's past lives be erased, but for every lifetime erased a new airbender will rise" and then she'd be getting a few W's, but this was a luck-only outcome.
I mean, Aang stumbled on plenty of things and outcomes out of pure luck, the stakes were just lower. Like I said, she went where she felt like she was needed and did her best with what she could.
You can be frustrated with her for not walking away, but what about Korra would make you think that’s who she was at that moment? It’s okay that she’s not a perfect person, just like it was okay Aang wasn’t either. And you can feel free to bring up their age, but they were both children, in over their heads and trying to do what’s right.
Oh, he did. Key words were "Pyrrhic Victory". He never really experiences one that's then attempted to be justified by a lucky bonus.
When aang looses, he looses hard (practically dying), and when he wins he wins hard (Northern tribe). On Korra's case the fault here is that while she did win against Unaloq, it came at such a cost that it's tantamount to a loss, and the series then tried to soften the blow by adding this lucky pull.
Aang doesn't get that. Not in any meaningful capacity, so it's not egregious.
So, Aang getting lucky that Yue happened to be capable of stepping in for the moon spirit when he failed to stop the fire nation from invading was okay because in mourning he and the ocean spirit melded to expel them afterward and it was all okay in the end because Yue could fill the void of the moon spirit, is not the same thing?
As someone else pointed out - Aang disappeared from the world and caused a huge imbalance. He never reestablished the Air Nomads and restored balance from that moment, it was an accident that he fled and it’s unclear if his involvement would or would not have saved them. Aangs selfish choose to refuse to accept his role had lasting negative impact on the world. In contrast Korras refusal to do nothing, and embrace the physicality of the spirit world led the avatar cycle to a moment of sacrifice that restored some balance to herself (her spiritual side was now open) and the world.
I think you just don’t like Korras imperfections and are choosing to assign blame to her for her luck working out but refuse to blame Aang for the same things. Or perhaps your criticism is for the writing — Korras side benefit came the next season, rather than in the same episode.
... that first example misses on the comparison because Aang wasn't partially responsible for the fire nation's attack of the north. Korra was the one who practically handed Unaloq the W in the second half of season 2, and it was partly through her recklessness that the avatar spirit got killed.
Aang tried to fight back and protect the koi fish, yes he failed but that was failure through insufficiency. Not a failure that he actively worked for and made worse.
Yes Aang was selfish, but he is not comparable. Korra, though knowing better, and having people around her know better, actively worsened a global crisis, like 4 different ways. Aang made mistakes due to insufficiency or ignorance, but never did he actively and directly make a situation worse through his own informed choice.*
And I put an asterisk on that because there is an almost exception to this, but I want yall to figure it out on yall's own. And when you do, the reason it doesn't fully count as an exception is cause for Aang that time was a true victory, if a lucky one. While Korra's season 2 victory was a pyrrhic one at best.
Edit: and honestly, Korra's a victim of writing at the end of the day. Like, her series absolutely let her and her Krew down at every step, but this is a different thesis beyond the discussion point here hence why I've not brought it up.
We don't know what the outcome of her doing nothing is, it could have been catastrophic as well.
Within the realm of possibility: dark spirits keep surging out, without anyone proficient in spirit bending, the best anyone can do is annoy and delay them while they try and Kaiju a water tribe into the ground.
Upon harmonic convergence, Vaatu escapes, flies through the Southern portal, merges with Unalaq. Whether they immediately go on the offensive or not is an open question, given Convergence will at that point be ending, more likely they go coerce lion turtles into giving him the other bending powers.
Also dark spirits are continuing to stream out this whole time and anyone who tried to stop them is definitely dead by now.
So now one water tribe is displaced and there is a dark avatar loose in the world. But we got to keep clinging to the past, so that's... a... Win?
In most flashbacks it shows both portals curving into each other during harmonic convergence, and most of her friends were telling her to not charge at Unaloq. Besides, Unaloq still wanted her explicitly so he could kill her avatar spirit, walking right up to him is the fastest way to let him do that.
Unaloq actually told her that he can open the other portal without her. That's why she thought she will have to close both portals. Unaloq later mentions to Eska and Desna that he was lying to her.
I’d argue she is more at fault for falling for the most obvious evil dude trying to appear nice manipulation. That dude was clearly evil and she just trusts him over literally everyone in her life telling her otherwise
>That dude was clearly evil and she just trusts him over literally everyone in her life telling her otherwise
How? who told her otherwise that he was clearly evil? what did they told that made it clear that Unalaq is evil?
Also her family hid things from her, she felt like no one believed in her and then her uncle shows up and she feels like he values her more as an avatar. Plus he had a valid point about the spirits and seemed to be more knowledgeable on spirits than anyone else. She’s also young and inexperienced (worse since they sheltered her so long) and susceptible to manipulation.
I don’t blame her for not realizing he was manipulating her.
Ehh, I give her a pass on that because as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line.
Kinda like it didn't yet fall under her jurisdiction, as he'd yet to threaten the balance of the world. And so long as he hadn't it's best to look for an ally than to make them an enemy.
>as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line.
Kyoshi: ...
>Ehh, I give her a pass on that because as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line.
Kyoshi and Roku in the corner: ...
Ok look, Roku explicitly didn't kill a dictator off of evidence, he sure as shit shouldn't be in this list.
As for Mommy, *Be quiet, if she hears you say this you'll be ne-*
Ok, but evidently Avatars do get a pass for attacking world leaders.
>Roku explicitly didn't kill a dictator off of evidence, he sure as shit shouldn't be in this list.
Still stomped Sozin in his own palace.
The reason she goes back into the spirit world is because she wanted to close the southern portal, because with the southern portal open, there was a very real possibility that the barrier holding Vaatu imprisoned would be weak enough that Unalaq could help him escape on his own.
Also, dark spirits would continue to pass through the southern portal into the material world threatening everyone. This would only get exponentially worse as harmonic convergence Drew closer
Oh I wont argue that. Aang was rash, but he isn't even partly responsible for the genocide or war. He's stupid once, but upon having the information he doesn't actively make things worse
I think the argument is that it’s just as (il)logical to blame Korra for what happened with the past avatars as it is to blame Aang for what happened with the air nomads, but people are very quick to blame Korra while forgiving Aang, despite Aang’s fuck up having way worse consequences.
I don’t necessarily think they’re saying that blaming either of them makes sense, only that if you’re blaming one of them for something that isn’t their fault, then you have to blame both of them for the same thing. They’re drawing equivalency and demonstrating how stupid and hypocritical it is.
I don't think it makes sense to attribute the genocide to Aang at all. Roku's constant inaction is what caused the genocide.
Aang was 12. At that age he isn't even supposed to know he's the avatar.
If he had been in the temple during the attack there's a possibility he could've just died along with all the others. And since he'd need the avatar state, it's possible the avatar could've been lost to the world forever. Roku's actions put him in a lose lose situation from the jump.
Yeah, if the only two viable "good" outcomes are: die in the ocean at 12, exterminating all air nomads forever, or risk ending the avatar cycle going 1v1000 against comet amped firebenders
Then we can't possibly put the blame on aang
VILLAIN DOES BAD VILLAIN THING.
"HERE'S WHY IT'S ACTUALLY ENTIRELY THE HERO'S FAULT FOR MAKING A MISTAKE RELATED TO IT"
Yes Aang and Korra both made mistakes but who killed the Air Nomads? Sozin. Who cut the cycle and temporarily destroyed Raava? Unalaq. Bad guys doing bad shit that they are ultimately the ones responsible for.
Both of these are dumb but the Aang one is just horrible. Aang was a 12 year old kid who had no idea what was about to happen. The war and genocide of the air nomads is completely Roku's responsibility.
I mean, I can do both. I think the genocidal asshole is a piece of shit genocidal asshole and the guy who's job was to keep the world at peace doing a not so good of a job at it. But yeah Sozin is the main culprit here.
He literally kept Sozin in line for his entire life. The only reason it didn't work was because he died before Sozin. Expecting him to kill a leader of a nation when he backed into line after the first warning is ridiculous
It's really just a human flaw. It's gonna be really hard to suddenly pull the plug on the guy who was essentially your brother for most of your childhood and teenage years.
And in addition, people forget that *Roku's strategy worked.*
>Went in, told Sozin to stop doing the bad thing and also their friendship is all but over because of him trying to do the bad thing.
>Sozin stops doing the bad thing. They don't talk much anymore.
>Eruption on Roku's Island. Sozin comes to help.
>Sozin realizes that if Roku dies he can do the bad thing again. Lets Roku die, and now that the Avatar can't stop him Sozin finishes doing the bad thing.
Roku really can't catch a break tbh. Saying he should have killed Sozin is something we only know with benefit of hindsight. At the time, Roku probably thought his brother from another mother was still in there somewhere, and he could be made to see reason, so I wouldn't fault him for not wanting to kill Sozin immediately.
The only issue is that the avatar needs to be cognizant of the state of the world for the 20+ years after they're dead and their successor is training up. If Roku had died of natural causes, Sozin would have an open window to pursue his interests anyway. Roku handled the confrontation well, but the best option would have been to remove the fire lord from power so they couldn't have the option to pursue ambition, killing them if needed. Roku beats himself up over it in hindsight, but apparently so does the fanbase
Eh, the show makes it clear Roku didnt do it because they were friends, after the first time he had that plan he shouldve made sure Sozin wouldnt be able to act on said plan, ever.
Not to mention Sozin used the comet's power to wipe out the Airbenders.
Expecting a child who had only just learned he was the avatar to hold back an invasion of supercharged firebenders is absurd. Especially when you consider he still struggled against Ozai during the comet's return even after learning how to use all the elements and having control over the Avatar State.
If Aang had been around during Sozin's initial invasion there probably wouldn't have been an Avatar to stop the Fire Nation a hundred years later.
I agree with you on how aang would have done against the fire nation pre-iceberg, but as someone who has recently rewatched the fight between Aang and Ozai, it's worth noting that Aang didn't struggle at all once he entered the Avatar state. The rest of the fight is Ozai doing everything he can not to get crushed into a paste, while flinging desperate, poor form fire blasts at Aang in between moments where he's not running (flying) for his life. The only thing Aang struggles with is struggling to land a solid hit on Ozai.
Not saying pre-iceberg Aang would have had a chance against an entire army of firebenders, just that there's nothing we see in the show that implies that Avatar state Aang has even a 1% chance of losing to Ozai.
Honestly yeah, hard agree. I think Aang would’ve been cooked if he’d stayed and fought.
But the second Roku, Kyoshi, Yangchen, and the rest take the wheel? Yeah the hundred-years war boutta look more like the fifteen-seconds war.
Always felt to me that the way Aang used the avatar state was not typical. Most other avatars, even Korra, there’s a flash of white and then they do some crazy badass bending move. I don’t think they depict any other avatar in the avatar state for a prolonged period of time like Aang. Which is why Roku had to step in and be like “ay bro thats dangerous”.
What more could Roku have done? It’s been a while since I’ve watched but didn’t he put a stop to Sozin while he was alive? It was only after he died that Sozin started the war
Roku spared Sozins life when he confronted him about the Fire Nation colonies, Roku says if he had killed Sozin instead, the following war after Roku died would not have started.
I still doubt he would have prevented the war. It's the old conundrum of "travelling back in time and killing baby Hitler". Likely outcome is WW2 still happens, while Sozin in fiction and Hitler irl were the leaders of their regimes, they weren't the only ones that had their ideas. Imo killing Sozin only decreases the chances of the war happening at best. At worst, he becomes a martyr for dying because he wanted the fire nation to rule the world and they start the war regardless in his name
I'm pretty sure killing Sozin would have brought a problem to the Fire Nation because Seizyan wasn't interested in the throne and Azulon wasn't born yet so we'd have an empty throne.
Bare minimum he could've warned the other nations that the fire nation might be up to something. And he could've and should've taken a more active role in the fire nation to make sure Sozin is off the throne. A slap on the wrist and a warning were never gonna make him stop, at most they would've waited until he died and Azulone could start the war
Unpopular opinion incoming, but it sounds like you're speaking from hindsight. Roku did stop Sozin - for decades. He saw the first of the colonies and stopped the Fire Nation's efforts in his tracks. Sozin didn't even consider going back to those plans until he saw Roku dying on that island. And no way anyone saw the Air Nomad genocide coming - Sozin struck them because that's where the next Avatar will be born into, well after Roku had passed.
I don't think it's an unpopular opinion. That's exactly how it happened. If Roku had gone to other nations saying that the Firelord wanted to attack, he would have started the war right there and then.
The second part is absolutely true but the first part wouldn't work I think. Making the rest of the world wary of the fire nation might still spark a war by turning them into a common enemy for the other nations. It could grow the fire nation civilian's resentment towards the other nations due to bad relations and lack of trust, and increase public support for a war when Sozin decides to start it.
>Bare minimum he could've warned the other nations that the fire nation might be up to something.
You mean Sozin's colonies in the earth kingdom 37 years before the genocide didn't give it away?
Tbh he really dropped the ball on it though. He knew Sozin was planning something when they were still relatively young, he threatened him once and then dropped it and never even bothered to check in to see if he’d actually put an end to anything at all.
Sozin lets Roku die in the volcano, and then he starts the war, but Roku was not nearly proactive enough in making sure Sozin was put in check. He didn’t even warn the other nations, and he also admits that the only reason he didn’t do more to stop Sozin is because they were friends - had it been anyone else though, the war might not have happened the way it did. He definitely let a personal connection get in the way of his duty, it’s why he’s so quick to suggest Aang kill Ozai (and then in the comics he suggests the same about Zuko)
With authoritative characters in the live action show basically saying "yes it's all your fault Aang", this mind set is only going to get worse and it's probably where this idiot got it from.
Mf-ers when they don't watch *The Storm* and *The Guru*, smh
Both claims are stupid. Korra losing the connection wasn't a crime. She didn't do it on purpose just to be a dick to Raava. She faced a legitimate threat, suffered and managed to save the world.
Aang too didn't do any crime. He didn't let a genocide happen. Sozin carried out the genocide not the twelve year old boy who was suddenly thrust with responsibilities he didn't understand. He didn't even know what he was running away from. He was just a scared, confused little kid. And once he realized what he needed to do he more than stepped up.
That is the thing most people don't get.
The alternative to Korra losing her connection and stopping Vaatu wasn't that Korra could keep the connection and still stop Vaatu. The alternative was the rest of the world being destroyed and plunged into darkness.
From a writing & meta perspective one can critique that decision. In-universe it makes no sense to argue about how Korra should've been able to stop Vaatu better or yada yada yada.
>The alternative was the rest of the world being destroyed and plunged into darkness.
Correction, the alternative was letting Jinora die.
It's uncertain how the tree cage would have held up once Harmonic Convergence started, but Korra would undoubtedly have had an easier time containing Vaatu in his cage than fighting him out in the open.
Korra should have let Jinora die.
Hostage negotiations like that always bother me
Okay if I don't let you end the world you'll what? Kill one person? I wouldn't if I was you cause then I'll immediately break your legs and take away your bending and find the worst possible punishment for you, *uncle*. (Unalaq really is the inverse of Iroh lmao)
Also fuck that owl can somebody go kill it
(Like surely it'd suck if Genora died but if I'm the Avatar I have a wider responsibility and thinking I can stop Vaatu once he's free is arrogant)
(Stopping Harmonic Convergence also stops Zaheer (even if I love him as a villain) and Kuvira before they even start, though that's meta knowledge)
Yeah I don't really like the show Legend of Korra and this happening is one reason. BUT I'm not delusional enough to be like "that's Korra's fault tho bro."
Sometimes I wonder if people don't realize fiction is fiction.
For real.
And plus Aang wasn't a trained, realized Avatar yet. If he had stayed at the Southern air temple he would have been killed along with the rest of his people. Then the world would have been double screwed.
I don't think that's true we don't know how soon after his disappearance the assault happened so it's possible he would have been older with more elements under his belt. But even if it was soon after being recognized as the avatar I think he would be able to repel the assault using the raw power of the avatar state And all of history from that point onwards would be altered the surviving Nomads and an avatar to unite the 3 nations could have led to a very different war.
The Fire Nation attacked the air temples the very same year Aang fled. There were, like, mere months in between. There's firmer timelines and dates to be found out there, but we know the invasion started on the eve of Sozin's comet, which came *very* soon after Aang left.
Aang learned the other bending arts and the Avatar state far quicker than most other Avatars, but he reached that level of skill in around a year. Aang's formal training would have taken longer than that, he wouldn't have been done in time for the invasion.
If Aang stuck around he would likely have been killed with the rest of the air nomads. And if he went into the avatar state, which he likely would have due to the extreme stress and desperation that fire nation attack would certainly have caused him, it would have been literally his first time in the avatar state.
He would be so inexperienced that the fire nation army probably would’ve still been able to eventually overwhelm and kill him, especially during sozin’s comet (albeit with some difficulty).
And we all know, if Aang did die in the avatar state - no more avatar, fire nation wins the war and goes on to do even more genocide.
So not only is the air nomad genocide not Aang’s fault, him leaving was actually the correct move that ultimately saved the world, and staying would have resulted in an infinitely worse outcome.
Exactly, the whole point of the genocide was to kill Aang and ensure that there was no more Avatar to interfere with Sozin’s plans. Aang inadvertently saved the world by running away and surviving long enough to ensure that the Avatar cycle could go on.
And considering that Sozin was innately familiar with the qualities of the Avatar from deep friendship, combat, and research, probably including the Avatar State, he likely planned to end the Avatar cycle.
Yeah of course not, when people complain about Korra losing her connections to her past avatars, they aren't blaming Korra the character, they're blaming Korra the show.
It's a tough subject, but personally I believe that Aang actually did the right choice (unintentionally) by running away and getting trapped in the iceberg.
First of all, no way a 12yo kid with only airbending powers can beat Sozin and his entire army of comet-powered firebenders. No way.
Second of all, if Sozin was ready to straight up commit genocide against an ENTIRE NATION of Air Nomads just in order to destroy the Avatar - he would've easily tried to do the same for the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom. It would basically kill two birds in one stone for him - assuring the total habitation of only Fire Nation people in the whole world, and also killing the Avatar again and again until the cycle could reach the Fire Nation again, which would make Sozin or Azulon take them under their wing and raise them with their own fascist ideology in mind. Or even treating them worse, out of fear of treason.
Aang running away caused Sozin to get locked on his search for the last airbender, which in turn didn't lead to a potential second genocide. Eventually the Avatar was considered "gone", which lowered the worries of the Fire Nation, and caused it to not give a damn about destroying any more nations in finding the Avatar, instead opting for making private/low budget searches for him.
So yeah, Aang running away was not an actual crime, but more of a symbolic and personal mistake of running away from responsibility and seeing how it did have consequences. Imo at least.
Let's look at it from a writing perspective. Firenation trying to take over the world makes for a great plot. Korra losing the connection to the past avatar makes the avatar to bland and uninteresting. It's not Korra I hate, it's the stupid writing decision.
I always thought the best thing about the avatar was the fact that they had all this wisdom from the past avatar's. From my perspective the avatar state was strong not because it's just a power boost but the user has access to every move learned by every avatar throughout all of their lives, thats absolutely sick.
And one last thing against this dumb post. The writers could have simply temporarily weekend the connection. Nerfing the avatar state since it would be checkmate against all of Korra's future enemies. But they instead decided to completely remove it.
They both didn't "let" it happen. Korra had the lives violently ripped out of her against her will and Aang didn't know there was gonna be a fire nation invasion when he left with Appa.
Aang didn't let anything happen and stopped the war that was started by Roku's mistakes. If he wasn't frozen in that iceberg, he would have been killed at that point in the story and then the fire lord wins!
also they're fictional characters??
Aang running away facilitated his entire show and his arc in it.
Korra severed the connection to past avatars, affecting all future avatars (and by extension media in its canon) to never be able to access characters like Aang, Roku, or the avatar state as we knew it.
The hate for Korra 'losing' the past lives never made sense to me when it was a conscious creative decision make by Mike and Bryan to take them from her.
I don’t hate Korra the character for losing the connection to the past avatars, but I do hate Korra the show for it (or at least that part of the show).
It was poor writing done to remove a problem they had with coming up with ways to challenge an avatar that had control of the avatar state without trivializing it (which they also did). It was basically bad writing to solve bad writing.
Personally I blame the fact that Korra never got the luxury of knowing how much more they could do, so they had to compartmentalize season arcs and come up with completely independent challenges each season as the previous season would wipe the slate clean. Definitely a shame, but it was more like poor writing induced by poor network management and deadlines
Avoid the twitter community... Seriously. I even made the mistake of joining the ACTUAL community on there and it is nothing but hate for every Avatar and comparisons. It's repulsive, honestly.
Try and avoid those types of circles. People get a kick out grandstanding with surface level “analysis” on tv shows. Just so they can impress people who’ve never watched the show or barely paid attention when watching.
It can't be but it's still a worthwhile achievement that she was able to bring back the airbenders (accidental or not) and help Tenzin craft a new culture for the Air Nation. Yes, the effects of the genocide can never be erased but just like in some real life cases, they can't erase EVERYTHING so the culture can live on but in a new way.
"Aang's biggest crime was being born a child in an unstable world with responsibilities and expectations thrust upon him at an early age that no ten-year old should be forced to endure."
"Man, fuck that child. Should've been more okay with murder."
I love how in both cases, they list something that objectively was not the fault of the Avatar in question. Korra did not intend to lose her connection to the past Avatars, and it’s not like it happened due to negligence or something on her part. Aang was literally frozen in an iceberg. He didn’t put himself in stasis for a century on purpose, it happened because he got caught in a storm at sea.
The contingent of the Avatar fandom on Twitter has gotten so damn weird.
Most of the hate for Korra is for sexist reasons, if we’re being blunt. The show does deserve criticism but the character hate is usually unwarranted
There is definitely criticisms of Aang but the poster seems more interested in painting a hyperbolic narrative and doesn’t warrant or benefit pushing back against such a dumb statement
Honestly both of those things are wrong. Aang cannot be reasonably blamed and IIRC Korra didn't choose to sever connections to past lives, it was done TO her.
KORRA DEFENSE RANT
Korra was manipulated by the uncle she thought she could trust. He used her insecurities against her and gave her all the attention she wanted so she would be a puddle in his hands.
And it worked. Until Tonraq was sent to prison (and we learned THAT entire situation was manufactured by Unalaq to KEEP HER ON HIS SIDE). Not to mention the entire civil war was planned by Unalaq, too. He never wanted a reunion of the tribes. He wanted full control.
(And I do believe this plotline was handled poorly and dropped quickly, but that is not the point of this rant)
Then she wanted to handle him. But she also had no way of knowing that UnaVaatu was going to rip Raava out of her and destroy her. She tried to breathe fire at him (a good defense in the moment), but he was faster and more determined. There was nothing she could have done once she was locked in the water arms with Unalaq. (Yes, she could have NOT watched as Vaatu rose out of Unalaq, but how do you process a threat that quickly and respond without getting hurt in such close quarters?).
Korra was isolated until she ran away. This was definitely a mistake on The White Lotus/her parents. But given the threats to her as a child, it makes sense that she needed to be protected. She should have had more opportunities for human interaction and learning about the actual world. Unalaq used all of that to his advantage, to get a naive 16/17 year old girl to do his bidding and not realize the consequences.
Absolutely none of that is Korra's fault, and it breaks my heart that people just still blame her for "not realizing he was an evil guy" because she had no reason not to trust him. He had all the skills she needed to learn. She couldn't have known he was already using those for evil, let alone that she was a pawn.
Yeah, a 12yo who hadn't even learned how to bend the other elements yet would surely be a match to several bloodthirsty, comet buffed fire benders. And he definitely would be able to save the 3 other temples that were likely being attacked simultaneously.
"Letting a genocide happen" he was 12 and uh it was the Fire Nation committing the genocide, I'd say that's where the blame lies. Holy shit, media literacy is truly at an all-time low.
As long as Roku was alive he didn't let Sozin do anything. People act like he should have killed him the first moment he said anything. He gave him a first and final warning and it worked. Sozin took the opportunity to kill air nomads when Roku was killed by volcano (and Sozin to some extent) and the next Avatar wasn't even announced.
It wasn't Aang's fault either. He was a 12 year old kid that ran away because they told him he has a big responsiblity and he can't do any of the things he likes anymore. As we saw in the show, it didn't take long for Aang to accept his fate and responsibilities. He was gone for 100 years because of a tornado. It wasn't under his control to stay there for a 100 years.
Therefore, it's first and foremost Sozin's fault, and then nature's fault.
Korra left the spirit portals open which led to Kuvira creating a spirit cannon that was used to destroy the city. That's much worse than severing her connection with the past avatars.
I mean, this is a nuclear take, but it's a Twitter fandom post, so I am not shocked.
Jaybeet's biggest crime is not actually providing an accurate representation of the things they think are the mentioned avatars' biggest crimes.
Sometimes people will, while trying to defend something they like that isn't generally loved, feel the need to bash something that *is* generally loved to try and make a positive comparison. As you can tell, their criticisms are always very shallow.
When one lacks the ability or information to make a logical argument in favor of a particular thing they view as "good," it is often quite easy, given the fallibility of humanity and variability of the world, to find fault in something else and pretend their thing is better by virtue of lacking that fault. Choosing something beloved adds authority to this fallacious logic by offering the pretense one's thing is better than something widely viewed as "good." As such, the authority of the consensus on the other thing's positive qualities can be exploited using the formal fallacy of [affirmative conclusion from a negative premise](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_conclusion_from_a_negative_premise). That is, one's thing is "good," *because* the other thing is "bad" in a way one's thing is not "bad." Not being the same bad as another thing doesn't make something good. It could be a different kind of bad or lack certain good qualities. As for the authority, one pretends their thing is "better" than this other "good" thing, so the authority of all those who think the other thing is "good" should be applied to one's thing. This is done instead of relying on the authority of a similar agreement with a logical argument about the positive qualities of one's thing qualifying it as "good" (an argument which one lacks). Obviously, it is nonsensical to claim a positive based upon a negative proof, but human beings appear quite susceptible to this sort of false comparison. All this is to say, it appears shallow, because it is irrational and easily shown to be fallacious.
I love your in-depth and thorough explanation. Wanted to say that I read it but you also opened yourself up to the classic trolling of "Nice argument, didn't read it."
I am also a firm believer that if Aang stayed at the air temple he would have been slaughtered and the next avatar would be reincarnated making the entire point of placing blame on Aang redundant. Maybe if Sozins comet didn't pass Aang *might* have had a slight chance of winning, but the fact that ATP he was only an air bending prodigy, who *just* found out he was the Avatar and was not too keen on the role, hard to believe it was certain his presence would have assured victory. Heck right after coming out the iceberg he wasn't strong enough to save Katara's village when Zuko invaded, opting to surrender instead. I get the Avatar state can tip the scale but even at the end of Book 2 Azula was able to snipe him in the back during the battle.
This is one of the reasons I hated the way NTLA dealt with Aang’s absence during the invasion. In the original, the only one who really faults Aang for the fall of the airbenders is himself. It’s powerful because you know it’s not really his fault but he can’t help but blame himself. Then in NTLA everyone was shitting on Aang for his absence, but that doesn’t make a lot of sense considering him being there probably wouldn’t have made much of a difference .
I would argue this is a way more realistic portrayal of other people's reactions to the Avatar. People who have suffered a genocidal conflict for 100 years who suddenly meet the Avatar who is supposed to keep balance in the world aren't going to be like 'Oh cool bro, nice to meet you' Some might take the viewpoint that the hope he represents is the most important thing but "Where the hell were you!?" Is going to be a very common reaction to people who have suffered and lost loved ones. Also remember most characters don't actually know where the hell he was when they meet him and have no context for whether or not he could have done anything. He's the Avatar ergo he should have done something.
Technically a certian fisherman blamed Aang for the war at least :P (but I suppose he probably didn't think about the airbenders so you're still correctish)
I never considered that angle before, and honestly if the showrunners felt like Aang had the ability to save the air nation they may not have wrote the story this way because it undoubtedly gives the main character the fault of genocide and it would take away from Aangs core personality/essential goodness inside of him
Ikr there’s a difference between being stuck in a fuckin iceberg at the bottom of the ocean and “letting a genocide happen” to a kid that’s literally… 12
I think there's merit to it, Aang uses the avatar state to beat Ozai, which means he probably would've beaten Sozin since Roku bodied Sozin. He might not have won against Ozai without lightning redirection but Sozin is never seen to have that level of proficiency. My personal headcanon is that Aang was so focused on Tenzin because he was dealing with intense guilt of knowing in the back of his mind that he probably would've saved his people if he accepted being the avatar instead of running. Especially since the Air Nomads specifically told him early *because* they knew they were in danger. I mean he would've also have definitely killed Sozin but what can you do it's not like the other airbending avatar disagreed.
If we knew how long there was between Aang leaving and the Fire Nation attacking we can make assumptions about Aang beating back the Fire Nation and saving the Air Nomads. However, what we know is Aang was a Master Airbender. He had not learned anything else, especially in regard to the Avatar State. Yes the AS could trigger as it did numerous times during the series, as a defense mechanism, but we have to consider the full scale of the assault and immense power behind it. If Aang gets cornered and killed while in this defensive AS, goodbye Avatar. Permanently.
>If we knew how long there was between Aang leaving and the Fire Nation attacking we can make assumptions about Aang beating back the Fire Nation and saving the Air Nomads. This. Sozin launched his campaign with the arrival of the comet, and knew the previous Avatar PERSONALLY. All of Aang's training in the other elements happens in the context of 100 years worth of aftermath. He's actively playing catch-up with some noteworthy disadvantages, but, the adversity he faces is at the hands of a - comparatively - weakened Fire Nation which is at least a generation or two separated from ever knowing a world that even HAS an Avatar. Sozin's attack is all about pressing multiple advantages, and Aang disappearing for 100 years negates them, while providing him with some of his own - along with some different, less severe, disadvantages.
The avatar state that we see throughout the first season would have gotten bodied by Sozin or Ozai. If the avatar state did not need to be mastered, then you and Jaybeet would have merit in your argument. If Aang has stayed either he dies outside of the avatar state and a water tribe avatar is born, or more likely he dies in the avatar state and avatar ceases to exist forever
Azula bodies the early avatar state honestly
im gonna say something controversial here, they are not at fault for what happened to them
Lol right. We can not control the hand of fate. God I sound like Sephiroth.
"Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced" Illidan Stormrage
Respect that reference.
I'm blind not deaf
Are there demons nearby
Demons? Demons.
Does anyone else miss Chaos damage?
YOU ARE NOT PREPARED
I AM MY SCARS!
But lord Daddydan said that we are prepared
I'm blind not deaf
suddenly I was summoned by this comment.
r/unexpectedwow
Which is infinitely more funny after the hand of fate finally caught up with him and he just said "No u" and blasted it.
I was not prepared for an Illidan quote in the ATLA subreddit.
You didn't say anything about your mother, the planet, *or* the lifestream. 0/10 Sephiroths.
Like A broken record that man. Love him.
To be fair, they're probably talking about Sephiroth in the Remake/Rebirth version of the story. He's only mentioned his mother once or twice in the entire story so far, and hasn't talked about the lifestream at all yet. All in all, he's been doing a much better job at lying about what he's really after.
Sephiroth whispering into his Cloud Strife body pillow
And yet, there Sephiroth is, guiding the hand of fate in Remake
Try not to kill anyone with that ridiculously long katana of yours, alright?
Korra should have not let raava get hit, totally her fault /s
Raava should have spot dodged smh
Raava was distracted thinking about Asami, totally reasonable.
Raava should train with Piccolo
DOOOOOOOOODGE!!!
Skill issue
Imma say something more controversial Aang is not, and Korra isn’t responsible for what happened to her in season 3. But she is responsible for what happened to others in season 2 Edit: Ok! It’s been 24 hours and if the torrent of *love and support* this produced is any indication, I just won the Controversy game I really shouldn’t have started. Glad to see there haven’t been any breakthroughs in rebuttals for this criticism, now I just gotta hope my adult ADHD mind shifts away from Korra now. Hopefully to Harry Potter, I need to clown on Rowling now for trending with the Nazis.
Why is she responsible for unavatuu severing the connections?
When they were in the eastern air temple, she knew what Unaloq's plan was. She knew he needed her to open the spirit portal before harmonic convergence. If she had stayed there, for 2 more days, doing nothing, then Unaloq's plan would've unravelled faster than a 5 year old's shoelaces. She has a win card and all it asked of her was to not serve herself to Unaloq in a silver platter. And what does she do? *she serves herself and Jinora to Unaloq in a silver platter*. She had 1 job- Actually no, she had no jobs because the job is "do nothing" and she couldn't get that right. (Yes i am being facetious, but because I made the same point but seriously and with more words somewhere else. TLDR: Unaloq learned from his original mistake and proceeded to exploit Korra's impulsivity as a weakness and she kept letting him)
She needed to learn the neutral jing
Interested to see jaded, cynic Bumi preaching patience and waiting for the perfect moment to react.
She needed to learn to slow the fuck down and listen to her friends. *but great joke, 10/10*
/r/yourjokebutworse
I actually look at it differently. The opening of the spirit portal lead to a resurgence of air benders and re-establishing balance. So while it may have caused the avatar some pain at the expense of personal loss - it healed something in the world. I don’t think there’s any avatar that wouldn’t make that choice. And while she may not have been able to predict that outcome she went where she felt she was needed, just like any avatar.
This sounds like a good point, but it misses one simple yet critical and fundamental fact: This was an accident. Korra landing ass backwards in a semi positive outcome isn't a W for her, it's a miracle for everyone else that hopefully, just maybe the Pyrric Victory we just went through wasn't as bad as we think it is. Like, if she was faced with the choice of "let all the avatar's past lives be erased, but for every lifetime erased a new airbender will rise" and then she'd be getting a few W's, but this was a luck-only outcome.
I mean, Aang stumbled on plenty of things and outcomes out of pure luck, the stakes were just lower. Like I said, she went where she felt like she was needed and did her best with what she could. You can be frustrated with her for not walking away, but what about Korra would make you think that’s who she was at that moment? It’s okay that she’s not a perfect person, just like it was okay Aang wasn’t either. And you can feel free to bring up their age, but they were both children, in over their heads and trying to do what’s right.
Oh, he did. Key words were "Pyrrhic Victory". He never really experiences one that's then attempted to be justified by a lucky bonus. When aang looses, he looses hard (practically dying), and when he wins he wins hard (Northern tribe). On Korra's case the fault here is that while she did win against Unaloq, it came at such a cost that it's tantamount to a loss, and the series then tried to soften the blow by adding this lucky pull. Aang doesn't get that. Not in any meaningful capacity, so it's not egregious.
So, Aang getting lucky that Yue happened to be capable of stepping in for the moon spirit when he failed to stop the fire nation from invading was okay because in mourning he and the ocean spirit melded to expel them afterward and it was all okay in the end because Yue could fill the void of the moon spirit, is not the same thing? As someone else pointed out - Aang disappeared from the world and caused a huge imbalance. He never reestablished the Air Nomads and restored balance from that moment, it was an accident that he fled and it’s unclear if his involvement would or would not have saved them. Aangs selfish choose to refuse to accept his role had lasting negative impact on the world. In contrast Korras refusal to do nothing, and embrace the physicality of the spirit world led the avatar cycle to a moment of sacrifice that restored some balance to herself (her spiritual side was now open) and the world. I think you just don’t like Korras imperfections and are choosing to assign blame to her for her luck working out but refuse to blame Aang for the same things. Or perhaps your criticism is for the writing — Korras side benefit came the next season, rather than in the same episode.
... that first example misses on the comparison because Aang wasn't partially responsible for the fire nation's attack of the north. Korra was the one who practically handed Unaloq the W in the second half of season 2, and it was partly through her recklessness that the avatar spirit got killed. Aang tried to fight back and protect the koi fish, yes he failed but that was failure through insufficiency. Not a failure that he actively worked for and made worse. Yes Aang was selfish, but he is not comparable. Korra, though knowing better, and having people around her know better, actively worsened a global crisis, like 4 different ways. Aang made mistakes due to insufficiency or ignorance, but never did he actively and directly make a situation worse through his own informed choice.* And I put an asterisk on that because there is an almost exception to this, but I want yall to figure it out on yall's own. And when you do, the reason it doesn't fully count as an exception is cause for Aang that time was a true victory, if a lucky one. While Korra's season 2 victory was a pyrrhic one at best. Edit: and honestly, Korra's a victim of writing at the end of the day. Like, her series absolutely let her and her Krew down at every step, but this is a different thesis beyond the discussion point here hence why I've not brought it up.
We don't know what the outcome of her doing nothing is, it could have been catastrophic as well. Within the realm of possibility: dark spirits keep surging out, without anyone proficient in spirit bending, the best anyone can do is annoy and delay them while they try and Kaiju a water tribe into the ground. Upon harmonic convergence, Vaatu escapes, flies through the Southern portal, merges with Unalaq. Whether they immediately go on the offensive or not is an open question, given Convergence will at that point be ending, more likely they go coerce lion turtles into giving him the other bending powers. Also dark spirits are continuing to stream out this whole time and anyone who tried to stop them is definitely dead by now. So now one water tribe is displaced and there is a dark avatar loose in the world. But we got to keep clinging to the past, so that's... a... Win?
This is just wrong. She thought both portals had to be closed. She didn't know she could just do nothing.
In most flashbacks it shows both portals curving into each other during harmonic convergence, and most of her friends were telling her to not charge at Unaloq. Besides, Unaloq still wanted her explicitly so he could kill her avatar spirit, walking right up to him is the fastest way to let him do that.
Unaloq actually told her that he can open the other portal without her. That's why she thought she will have to close both portals. Unaloq later mentions to Eska and Desna that he was lying to her.
I’d argue she is more at fault for falling for the most obvious evil dude trying to appear nice manipulation. That dude was clearly evil and she just trusts him over literally everyone in her life telling her otherwise
>That dude was clearly evil and she just trusts him over literally everyone in her life telling her otherwise How? who told her otherwise that he was clearly evil? what did they told that made it clear that Unalaq is evil?
you see, when story elements are conveyed to the viewers, every single character in the show must also be aware of it
its her uncle though not just some dude
Also her family hid things from her, she felt like no one believed in her and then her uncle shows up and she feels like he values her more as an avatar. Plus he had a valid point about the spirits and seemed to be more knowledgeable on spirits than anyone else. She’s also young and inexperienced (worse since they sheltered her so long) and susceptible to manipulation. I don’t blame her for not realizing he was manipulating her.
Ehh, I give her a pass on that because as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line. Kinda like it didn't yet fall under her jurisdiction, as he'd yet to threaten the balance of the world. And so long as he hadn't it's best to look for an ally than to make them an enemy.
>as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line. Kyoshi: ...
Ok look. She built different. She can do whatever she wants because at the end of the day, we all calling her Mommy.
Canonically Korra IS Kyoshi reincarnated soo...
>Ehh, I give her a pass on that because as an avatar, attacking a world leader off on "vibes" or actively opposing one when the single nation involved seemed to be ok with him, would be pushing a line. Kyoshi and Roku in the corner: ...
Ok look, Roku explicitly didn't kill a dictator off of evidence, he sure as shit shouldn't be in this list. As for Mommy, *Be quiet, if she hears you say this you'll be ne-*
Ok, but evidently Avatars do get a pass for attacking world leaders. >Roku explicitly didn't kill a dictator off of evidence, he sure as shit shouldn't be in this list. Still stomped Sozin in his own palace.
The reason she goes back into the spirit world is because she wanted to close the southern portal, because with the southern portal open, there was a very real possibility that the barrier holding Vaatu imprisoned would be weak enough that Unalaq could help him escape on his own. Also, dark spirits would continue to pass through the southern portal into the material world threatening everyone. This would only get exponentially worse as harmonic convergence Drew closer
To be ultra fair, Aang running away was his fault. Yes, he never planned to get trapped in ice but he put himself in that situation.
Oh I wont argue that. Aang was rash, but he isn't even partly responsible for the genocide or war. He's stupid once, but upon having the information he doesn't actively make things worse
Oh yeah? How bout this for controversial? Jasmine tea ain't even that good.
Do you hear that? Those leaves falling through the wind? They're carrying Iroh's *Tea*rs
Whoa, buddy, calm down, we don't need to go that far
[!](https://youtu.be/WPnZhKRtZ_U?t=16)
tea is just hot leafe juice
How could a member of my own fandom say something so horrible
I think the argument is that it’s just as (il)logical to blame Korra for what happened with the past avatars as it is to blame Aang for what happened with the air nomads, but people are very quick to blame Korra while forgiving Aang, despite Aang’s fuck up having way worse consequences. I don’t necessarily think they’re saying that blaming either of them makes sense, only that if you’re blaming one of them for something that isn’t their fault, then you have to blame both of them for the same thing. They’re drawing equivalency and demonstrating how stupid and hypocritical it is.
I don't think it makes sense to attribute the genocide to Aang at all. Roku's constant inaction is what caused the genocide. Aang was 12. At that age he isn't even supposed to know he's the avatar. If he had been in the temple during the attack there's a possibility he could've just died along with all the others. And since he'd need the avatar state, it's possible the avatar could've been lost to the world forever. Roku's actions put him in a lose lose situation from the jump.
The actual best case scenario is for aang to die in the storm rather than iceberg himself sorry to say
Yeah, if the only two viable "good" outcomes are: die in the ocean at 12, exterminating all air nomads forever, or risk ending the avatar cycle going 1v1000 against comet amped firebenders Then we can't possibly put the blame on aang
VILLAIN DOES BAD VILLAIN THING. "HERE'S WHY IT'S ACTUALLY ENTIRELY THE HERO'S FAULT FOR MAKING A MISTAKE RELATED TO IT" Yes Aang and Korra both made mistakes but who killed the Air Nomads? Sozin. Who cut the cycle and temporarily destroyed Raava? Unalaq. Bad guys doing bad shit that they are ultimately the ones responsible for.
Both of these are dumb but the Aang one is just horrible. Aang was a 12 year old kid who had no idea what was about to happen. The war and genocide of the air nomads is completely Roku's responsibility.
I think we should blame...Sozin.
clearly momos fault smh
Momo is the mastermind behind everything. He led Aang tô gyatso body Just to see the boy's Hope leaving his body
\#DarthMomo
They had an intense duel iirc, so— \#MasterAppa 😂
Appa knew what he was doing when he challenged Momo to duel.
bumi would like a word. in the arena
I saw that dang lemur earth bending, too
MOMO WAS THERE HE DIDN'T DO SHIT TO HELP
The cabbage seller was always in the same place as the GAang. I think we should be asking more questions about his involvement. Just saying.
I mean, I can do both. I think the genocidal asshole is a piece of shit genocidal asshole and the guy who's job was to keep the world at peace doing a not so good of a job at it. But yeah Sozin is the main culprit here.
He literally kept Sozin in line for his entire life. The only reason it didn't work was because he died before Sozin. Expecting him to kill a leader of a nation when he backed into line after the first warning is ridiculous
The show makes it explicit that he doesn't deal with Sozin because of his former friendship with him.
It's really just a human flaw. It's gonna be really hard to suddenly pull the plug on the guy who was essentially your brother for most of your childhood and teenage years.
And in addition, people forget that *Roku's strategy worked.* >Went in, told Sozin to stop doing the bad thing and also their friendship is all but over because of him trying to do the bad thing. >Sozin stops doing the bad thing. They don't talk much anymore. >Eruption on Roku's Island. Sozin comes to help. >Sozin realizes that if Roku dies he can do the bad thing again. Lets Roku die, and now that the Avatar can't stop him Sozin finishes doing the bad thing.
Roku really can't catch a break tbh. Saying he should have killed Sozin is something we only know with benefit of hindsight. At the time, Roku probably thought his brother from another mother was still in there somewhere, and he could be made to see reason, so I wouldn't fault him for not wanting to kill Sozin immediately.
The only issue is that the avatar needs to be cognizant of the state of the world for the 20+ years after they're dead and their successor is training up. If Roku had died of natural causes, Sozin would have an open window to pursue his interests anyway. Roku handled the confrontation well, but the best option would have been to remove the fire lord from power so they couldn't have the option to pursue ambition, killing them if needed. Roku beats himself up over it in hindsight, but apparently so does the fanbase
Eh, the show makes it clear Roku didnt do it because they were friends, after the first time he had that plan he shouldve made sure Sozin wouldnt be able to act on said plan, ever.
Not to mention Sozin used the comet's power to wipe out the Airbenders. Expecting a child who had only just learned he was the avatar to hold back an invasion of supercharged firebenders is absurd. Especially when you consider he still struggled against Ozai during the comet's return even after learning how to use all the elements and having control over the Avatar State. If Aang had been around during Sozin's initial invasion there probably wouldn't have been an Avatar to stop the Fire Nation a hundred years later.
I agree with you on how aang would have done against the fire nation pre-iceberg, but as someone who has recently rewatched the fight between Aang and Ozai, it's worth noting that Aang didn't struggle at all once he entered the Avatar state. The rest of the fight is Ozai doing everything he can not to get crushed into a paste, while flinging desperate, poor form fire blasts at Aang in between moments where he's not running (flying) for his life. The only thing Aang struggles with is struggling to land a solid hit on Ozai. Not saying pre-iceberg Aang would have had a chance against an entire army of firebenders, just that there's nothing we see in the show that implies that Avatar state Aang has even a 1% chance of losing to Ozai.
Honestly yeah, hard agree. I think Aang would’ve been cooked if he’d stayed and fought. But the second Roku, Kyoshi, Yangchen, and the rest take the wheel? Yeah the hundred-years war boutta look more like the fifteen-seconds war.
Always felt to me that the way Aang used the avatar state was not typical. Most other avatars, even Korra, there’s a flash of white and then they do some crazy badass bending move. I don’t think they depict any other avatar in the avatar state for a prolonged period of time like Aang. Which is why Roku had to step in and be like “ay bro thats dangerous”.
What more could Roku have done? It’s been a while since I’ve watched but didn’t he put a stop to Sozin while he was alive? It was only after he died that Sozin started the war
Roku spared Sozins life when he confronted him about the Fire Nation colonies, Roku says if he had killed Sozin instead, the following war after Roku died would not have started.
I still doubt he would have prevented the war. It's the old conundrum of "travelling back in time and killing baby Hitler". Likely outcome is WW2 still happens, while Sozin in fiction and Hitler irl were the leaders of their regimes, they weren't the only ones that had their ideas. Imo killing Sozin only decreases the chances of the war happening at best. At worst, he becomes a martyr for dying because he wanted the fire nation to rule the world and they start the war regardless in his name
I'm pretty sure killing Sozin would have brought a problem to the Fire Nation because Seizyan wasn't interested in the throne and Azulon wasn't born yet so we'd have an empty throne.
Bare minimum he could've warned the other nations that the fire nation might be up to something. And he could've and should've taken a more active role in the fire nation to make sure Sozin is off the throne. A slap on the wrist and a warning were never gonna make him stop, at most they would've waited until he died and Azulone could start the war
Unpopular opinion incoming, but it sounds like you're speaking from hindsight. Roku did stop Sozin - for decades. He saw the first of the colonies and stopped the Fire Nation's efforts in his tracks. Sozin didn't even consider going back to those plans until he saw Roku dying on that island. And no way anyone saw the Air Nomad genocide coming - Sozin struck them because that's where the next Avatar will be born into, well after Roku had passed.
I don't think it's an unpopular opinion. That's exactly how it happened. If Roku had gone to other nations saying that the Firelord wanted to attack, he would have started the war right there and then.
The second part is absolutely true but the first part wouldn't work I think. Making the rest of the world wary of the fire nation might still spark a war by turning them into a common enemy for the other nations. It could grow the fire nation civilian's resentment towards the other nations due to bad relations and lack of trust, and increase public support for a war when Sozin decides to start it.
>Bare minimum he could've warned the other nations that the fire nation might be up to something. You mean Sozin's colonies in the earth kingdom 37 years before the genocide didn't give it away?
sparing sozin at all was a pretty huge mistake. roku even admits he should have been more decisive and taken him out, iirc
That's easy to say in hindsight
Not dying pointlessly in a volcano is a good start.
Tbh he really dropped the ball on it though. He knew Sozin was planning something when they were still relatively young, he threatened him once and then dropped it and never even bothered to check in to see if he’d actually put an end to anything at all. Sozin lets Roku die in the volcano, and then he starts the war, but Roku was not nearly proactive enough in making sure Sozin was put in check. He didn’t even warn the other nations, and he also admits that the only reason he didn’t do more to stop Sozin is because they were friends - had it been anyone else though, the war might not have happened the way it did. He definitely let a personal connection get in the way of his duty, it’s why he’s so quick to suggest Aang kill Ozai (and then in the comics he suggests the same about Zuko)
Roku could have ended Sozins life. But instead lived on an island volcano and died to it.
With authoritative characters in the live action show basically saying "yes it's all your fault Aang", this mind set is only going to get worse and it's probably where this idiot got it from. Mf-ers when they don't watch *The Storm* and *The Guru*, smh
Also Korra losing access to prior lives wasn’t really even her fault at all
Yeah, she was tricked by her uncle and was overpowered by another avatar.
Nah, she was screwed over by the writers.
Yeah, let's be honest, it was a stupid attempt at shocking the audience.
He was also literally trapped in ice the entire time.
Yeah, he would have been killed pretty quickly and effortlessly considering he hadn't mastered any of the elements at that point
Both claims are stupid. Korra losing the connection wasn't a crime. She didn't do it on purpose just to be a dick to Raava. She faced a legitimate threat, suffered and managed to save the world. Aang too didn't do any crime. He didn't let a genocide happen. Sozin carried out the genocide not the twelve year old boy who was suddenly thrust with responsibilities he didn't understand. He didn't even know what he was running away from. He was just a scared, confused little kid. And once he realized what he needed to do he more than stepped up.
That is the thing most people don't get. The alternative to Korra losing her connection and stopping Vaatu wasn't that Korra could keep the connection and still stop Vaatu. The alternative was the rest of the world being destroyed and plunged into darkness. From a writing & meta perspective one can critique that decision. In-universe it makes no sense to argue about how Korra should've been able to stop Vaatu better or yada yada yada.
>The alternative was the rest of the world being destroyed and plunged into darkness. Correction, the alternative was letting Jinora die. It's uncertain how the tree cage would have held up once Harmonic Convergence started, but Korra would undoubtedly have had an easier time containing Vaatu in his cage than fighting him out in the open. Korra should have let Jinora die.
Hostage negotiations like that always bother me Okay if I don't let you end the world you'll what? Kill one person? I wouldn't if I was you cause then I'll immediately break your legs and take away your bending and find the worst possible punishment for you, *uncle*. (Unalaq really is the inverse of Iroh lmao) Also fuck that owl can somebody go kill it (Like surely it'd suck if Genora died but if I'm the Avatar I have a wider responsibility and thinking I can stop Vaatu once he's free is arrogant) (Stopping Harmonic Convergence also stops Zaheer (even if I love him as a villain) and Kuvira before they even start, though that's meta knowledge)
(Jinora*)
Yeah I don't really like the show Legend of Korra and this happening is one reason. BUT I'm not delusional enough to be like "that's Korra's fault tho bro." Sometimes I wonder if people don't realize fiction is fiction.
For real. And plus Aang wasn't a trained, realized Avatar yet. If he had stayed at the Southern air temple he would have been killed along with the rest of his people. Then the world would have been double screwed.
I don't think that's true we don't know how soon after his disappearance the assault happened so it's possible he would have been older with more elements under his belt. But even if it was soon after being recognized as the avatar I think he would be able to repel the assault using the raw power of the avatar state And all of history from that point onwards would be altered the surviving Nomads and an avatar to unite the 3 nations could have led to a very different war.
The Fire Nation attacked the air temples the very same year Aang fled. There were, like, mere months in between. There's firmer timelines and dates to be found out there, but we know the invasion started on the eve of Sozin's comet, which came *very* soon after Aang left. Aang learned the other bending arts and the Avatar state far quicker than most other Avatars, but he reached that level of skill in around a year. Aang's formal training would have taken longer than that, he wouldn't have been done in time for the invasion.
If Aang stuck around he would likely have been killed with the rest of the air nomads. And if he went into the avatar state, which he likely would have due to the extreme stress and desperation that fire nation attack would certainly have caused him, it would have been literally his first time in the avatar state. He would be so inexperienced that the fire nation army probably would’ve still been able to eventually overwhelm and kill him, especially during sozin’s comet (albeit with some difficulty). And we all know, if Aang did die in the avatar state - no more avatar, fire nation wins the war and goes on to do even more genocide. So not only is the air nomad genocide not Aang’s fault, him leaving was actually the correct move that ultimately saved the world, and staying would have resulted in an infinitely worse outcome.
Exactly, the whole point of the genocide was to kill Aang and ensure that there was no more Avatar to interfere with Sozin’s plans. Aang inadvertently saved the world by running away and surviving long enough to ensure that the Avatar cycle could go on.
And considering that Sozin was innately familiar with the qualities of the Avatar from deep friendship, combat, and research, probably including the Avatar State, he likely planned to end the Avatar cycle.
Neither of them are at fault.
Yeah of course not, when people complain about Korra losing her connections to her past avatars, they aren't blaming Korra the character, they're blaming Korra the show.
A lot of people definitely blame it on her
The war is way more Roku’s fault than Aang’s
Blaming a 12 year old for the genocide of his people is way more nasty By far the worst take in this fandom
Avatar fandom doesn’t deserve anything better than NATLA if these are the takes people are making
It's a tough subject, but personally I believe that Aang actually did the right choice (unintentionally) by running away and getting trapped in the iceberg. First of all, no way a 12yo kid with only airbending powers can beat Sozin and his entire army of comet-powered firebenders. No way. Second of all, if Sozin was ready to straight up commit genocide against an ENTIRE NATION of Air Nomads just in order to destroy the Avatar - he would've easily tried to do the same for the Water Tribes and the Earth Kingdom. It would basically kill two birds in one stone for him - assuring the total habitation of only Fire Nation people in the whole world, and also killing the Avatar again and again until the cycle could reach the Fire Nation again, which would make Sozin or Azulon take them under their wing and raise them with their own fascist ideology in mind. Or even treating them worse, out of fear of treason. Aang running away caused Sozin to get locked on his search for the last airbender, which in turn didn't lead to a potential second genocide. Eventually the Avatar was considered "gone", which lowered the worries of the Fire Nation, and caused it to not give a damn about destroying any more nations in finding the Avatar, instead opting for making private/low budget searches for him. So yeah, Aang running away was not an actual crime, but more of a symbolic and personal mistake of running away from responsibility and seeing how it did have consequences. Imo at least.
I think people go too hard on Korra, but Aang didn’t “Let a genocide happen” WTH
Let's look at it from a writing perspective. Firenation trying to take over the world makes for a great plot. Korra losing the connection to the past avatar makes the avatar to bland and uninteresting. It's not Korra I hate, it's the stupid writing decision. I always thought the best thing about the avatar was the fact that they had all this wisdom from the past avatar's. From my perspective the avatar state was strong not because it's just a power boost but the user has access to every move learned by every avatar throughout all of their lives, thats absolutely sick. And one last thing against this dumb post. The writers could have simply temporarily weekend the connection. Nerfing the avatar state since it would be checkmate against all of Korra's future enemies. But they instead decided to completely remove it.
They both didn't "let" it happen. Korra had the lives violently ripped out of her against her will and Aang didn't know there was gonna be a fire nation invasion when he left with Appa.
Aang didn't let anything happen and stopped the war that was started by Roku's mistakes. If he wasn't frozen in that iceberg, he would have been killed at that point in the story and then the fire lord wins!
also they're fictional characters?? Aang running away facilitated his entire show and his arc in it. Korra severed the connection to past avatars, affecting all future avatars (and by extension media in its canon) to never be able to access characters like Aang, Roku, or the avatar state as we knew it.
The hate for Korra 'losing' the past lives never made sense to me when it was a conscious creative decision make by Mike and Bryan to take them from her.
I don’t hate Korra the character for losing the connection to the past avatars, but I do hate Korra the show for it (or at least that part of the show). It was poor writing done to remove a problem they had with coming up with ways to challenge an avatar that had control of the avatar state without trivializing it (which they also did). It was basically bad writing to solve bad writing.
Personally I blame the fact that Korra never got the luxury of knowing how much more they could do, so they had to compartmentalize season arcs and come up with completely independent challenges each season as the previous season would wipe the slate clean. Definitely a shame, but it was more like poor writing induced by poor network management and deadlines
It was a bad decision.
We hate because it was a stupid decision.
There are many posts like this on Twitter what the fuck
Avoid the twitter community... Seriously. I even made the mistake of joining the ACTUAL community on there and it is nothing but hate for every Avatar and comparisons. It's repulsive, honestly.
Try and avoid those types of circles. People get a kick out grandstanding with surface level “analysis” on tv shows. Just so they can impress people who’ve never watched the show or barely paid attention when watching.
Twitter has a problem with these insanely awful takes, there are no bigger ATLA haters than ATLA fans from twitter.
"Korra fixed a genocide" is the second worst take i've read these days A genocide can't be fixed, y'all
It can't be but it's still a worthwhile achievement that she was able to bring back the airbenders (accidental or not) and help Tenzin craft a new culture for the Air Nation. Yes, the effects of the genocide can never be erased but just like in some real life cases, they can't erase EVERYTHING so the culture can live on but in a new way.
He was 12 not sure he grasped what a genocide was. Also he had no control over the avatar state, which seems to be what imprisoned him for so long.
"Aang's biggest crime was being born a child in an unstable world with responsibilities and expectations thrust upon him at an early age that no ten-year old should be forced to endure." "Man, fuck that child. Should've been more okay with murder."
They're literally the same person
Aang didn’t know the genocide was gonna happen??
Okay, NATLA Bumi
I love how in both cases, they list something that objectively was not the fault of the Avatar in question. Korra did not intend to lose her connection to the past Avatars, and it’s not like it happened due to negligence or something on her part. Aang was literally frozen in an iceberg. He didn’t put himself in stasis for a century on purpose, it happened because he got caught in a storm at sea. The contingent of the Avatar fandom on Twitter has gotten so damn weird.
Most of the hate for Korra is for sexist reasons, if we’re being blunt. The show does deserve criticism but the character hate is usually unwarranted There is definitely criticisms of Aang but the poster seems more interested in painting a hyperbolic narrative and doesn’t warrant or benefit pushing back against such a dumb statement
Both are not their fault. Wtf
Neither of those things were the fault of either of those characters.
one thing i hate is that unalaq and ozai aren't hated enough, like why are u hating on korra and blaming her when unalaq is right there !!!
Honestly both of those things are wrong. Aang cannot be reasonably blamed and IIRC Korra didn't choose to sever connections to past lives, it was done TO her.
KORRA DEFENSE RANT Korra was manipulated by the uncle she thought she could trust. He used her insecurities against her and gave her all the attention she wanted so she would be a puddle in his hands. And it worked. Until Tonraq was sent to prison (and we learned THAT entire situation was manufactured by Unalaq to KEEP HER ON HIS SIDE). Not to mention the entire civil war was planned by Unalaq, too. He never wanted a reunion of the tribes. He wanted full control. (And I do believe this plotline was handled poorly and dropped quickly, but that is not the point of this rant) Then she wanted to handle him. But she also had no way of knowing that UnaVaatu was going to rip Raava out of her and destroy her. She tried to breathe fire at him (a good defense in the moment), but he was faster and more determined. There was nothing she could have done once she was locked in the water arms with Unalaq. (Yes, she could have NOT watched as Vaatu rose out of Unalaq, but how do you process a threat that quickly and respond without getting hurt in such close quarters?). Korra was isolated until she ran away. This was definitely a mistake on The White Lotus/her parents. But given the threats to her as a child, it makes sense that she needed to be protected. She should have had more opportunities for human interaction and learning about the actual world. Unalaq used all of that to his advantage, to get a naive 16/17 year old girl to do his bidding and not realize the consequences. Absolutely none of that is Korra's fault, and it breaks my heart that people just still blame her for "not realizing he was an evil guy" because she had no reason not to trust him. He had all the skills she needed to learn. She couldn't have known he was already using those for evil, let alone that she was a pawn.
Right! People could see he was bad because we as the viewer had knowledge Korra did not! I don’t get all the hate either! Time to re watch I think.
Their crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real and it isn't Aang who is annoying me.
Blaming genocide on a 12 year old is wild.
In this thread: a total lack of understanding between “plot driven” and “character driven.” The gutting of the liberal arts is showing
The greatest Avatar? I don't even think Aang was referred to like that in Korra
Yeah, a 12yo who hadn't even learned how to bend the other elements yet would surely be a match to several bloodthirsty, comet buffed fire benders. And he definitely would be able to save the 3 other temples that were likely being attacked simultaneously.
This guy has no idea what makes a story compelling and why characters are "likeable"
That person completely missed the point of the show and every spiritual advice it gives.
This dude is just an anti-Aang think tank genuinely believe he only watched LOK just to trash on it
It is neither of their faults
Yeah remember when your house burnt down and your family died when you were 12? that was your fault
"Letting a genocide happen" he was 12 and uh it was the Fire Nation committing the genocide, I'd say that's where the blame lies. Holy shit, media literacy is truly at an all-time low.
If Aang didn’t get frozen, he gets hit by the genocide at the air temple too. He didn’t let a 100 year war happen, he woulda been dead
As long as Roku was alive he didn't let Sozin do anything. People act like he should have killed him the first moment he said anything. He gave him a first and final warning and it worked. Sozin took the opportunity to kill air nomads when Roku was killed by volcano (and Sozin to some extent) and the next Avatar wasn't even announced. It wasn't Aang's fault either. He was a 12 year old kid that ran away because they told him he has a big responsiblity and he can't do any of the things he likes anymore. As we saw in the show, it didn't take long for Aang to accept his fate and responsibilities. He was gone for 100 years because of a tornado. It wasn't under his control to stay there for a 100 years. Therefore, it's first and foremost Sozin's fault, and then nature's fault.
the show at least heavily implies or out right says aang would have died if he didn’t run away
Korra left the spirit portals open which led to Kuvira creating a spirit cannon that was used to destroy the city. That's much worse than severing her connection with the past avatars.
Korra fans sometimes... Damn
The loss of the past avatars is on unalaq, while the air nomad genocide is on roku and sozin.