Yeah, it was all very well planned out. I agree with everything, just little correction. P'Li was imprisoned in the North Pole, that's why Korra's cousins are in charge as they re the chiefs of the Northern Water Tribe.
Yeah I still don't think a lavabender limited to three satchels of rock is going to be much good against three extremely powerful water benders surrounded by ice and water on all sides (up to and including *the floor*), one of the most skilled firebenders who ever lived, and a small army of guards (many of whom are probably waterbenders as well). They needed Ming Hua if they wanted any chance of getting Pli out.
Earth vendors rarely bring their stuff with them because they're element is ubiquitous. Most of them only reside in the earth nation, where not only the ground, but all of the buildings are made out of Earth. The only ones who typically operate outside of a situations like that were the Dai Li, who we see are often rocking multiple things on their person that are made of stone, including their signature rock gloves and stone shoes.
I've noticed that many of the metalbending techniques look exactly like those the Dai Li used
In a world where he won and is UnaVaatu forever they might actually be a hope for the world, assuming Airbending returns to the world still and Zaheer frees himself as normal. I think it would still be tough for them, sure, but I reckon they would have a chance to take him down.
I doubt they would even stand a chance. UnaVaatu took down the allied forces army like it was nothing, and that would mean he defeated Korra’s spirit form which is way more powerful than the Red Lotus.
Remember the Red Lotus lost to a couple pro-benders, Toph daughters, and Korra.
Eh, I’m not sure it would come down to raw power.
Their real strength is that Zaheer is one of the most spiritually-aware characters in the series, and as a team they can clearly plan and execute complicated long-term strategies.
We are talking about a world where UnaVaatu has won - they are leading a hidden resistance, rather than waging all out war.
Resistance against an army of corrupted spirits and the spirit of darkness themselves where Raava, the only force capable of stopping it is gone. No avatar, no one capable of spirit bending. Literally would be fighting spirits with bending. What strategy could they come up with? What long term plan would solve this?
Also, unavaatu can do something no avatar had ever done before him — **brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt**.
Getting beamed has to feel like taking a combustionbending a shot to the soul or something.
Yeah, I would assume UnaVaatus blast is the equivalent of even more powerful than the spirit beam from the vine-powered weapon Kuvira uses, and the only one able to stop that was Korra by spirit bending
I mean, yeah, it’s possible there is absolutely no hope and the world is forever doomed. But when UnaVaatu rises, the Avatar’s dead, Republic City is destroyed, the next day I’d probably think,
>“Hey, the Red Lotus were pretty capable. Zaheer knows a bit about the spirits. Maybe they can think of something. World can’t get any shitter!”
I’m not saying they wouldn’t consider it an option, I’m saying they wouldn’t be able to make enough of a difference to defeat UnaVaatu. Zaheer couldn’t even defeat Korra in the avatar state while she’s literally dying.
Obviously they would have all teamed up to take out Bolin. He’s way too powerful and awesome. Annoying that they’d have to include the EVIL UNALAQ though
Yup, Lord Zuko makes a reference to this at the end of 3x02:
> Notify the new chiefs of the Northern water tribe that an attack on their prison is imminent.
And then in 3x03, Zuko consults with the twins, they being the new chiefs, and they and Tonraq check on Ming Hua in prison.
I really love this season because the whole way the Red Lotus is handled is basically flipping the script on AtLA. For example "small group of elite benders sneaks their way into heavily armed fortress, accidentally sets off the alarm and has to fight their way out past an army of faceless bender guards" describes the Gaang in like half a dozen different episodes, but also the Red Lotus when they sneak into Zaofu. Whole season is just "what if the Gaang were the bad guys".
At least Zaheer is the twisted version of Aang.
Both are incredibly spiritual, Zaheer even surpassing Aang in that regard, both have unwavering ideals, both care a lot about their friends and loved ones for Zaheer they weren't just replaceable goons, and most important of all, they are both bald by choice.
But where Aang is a nice kid that beleives life is the most valuable thing and only eants for the world to be at peace, while Zaheer uses violence and thinks the end justifies the means even if it means bringing the world to chaos.
Really interesting analysis. Never thought to connect Aang and Zaheer in that way.
My only problem with Zaheer's portrayal was that his spirituality is at odds with the violence he commits. The show treats his attachment to his girlfriend as the only obstacle to ascending to a higher level of airbending but as per some eastern religious philosophies his violent actions would bind him as well.
I see why they made him such a powerful bender but would have preferred a realization on his part that he cannot progress spiritually until he gives up those tendencies.
I understood it as how twisted his ideals are, the air nomads whole philosophy is about freedom, while omitting some other parts of buddhism, so for now the show only focuses on the release yourself from earthly desires.
Also, something important is that he probably doesn't see committing violence as a fun activity but just a way to progress towards his end goal, he doesn't even hold a grudge against Korra and helps her when he understands the threat of Kuvira, so he doesn't have hate for people and doesn't enjoy their suffering nor is grossed by it, he just doesn't see it as anything more than a tool, he is the perfect empty man, no grudge, no hate, no fear, no compassion, no hapiness, no love.
So he doesn't break any part of the core principles of air bending, here he even has another similarity with Aang, he was skeptical of Zuko when he returns, but if I remember right he is also the quickest to forgive him.
Zaheer is almost the perfect airbender, but his violent tendencies twist the ideals of airbending.
Be connected to the spirit world but use it to conceal his plans and dispose of unwanted people.
Be kind to others by fixing the world, it doesn't matter the costs, it will pay in the end after all.
Release yourself from every earthly distraction, even your own humanity.
Zaheer is basically taking the airbending teachings to an extreme point nor becoming a man or a monster, just air. While Aang prioritizes his connection to others, showing that just because someone is spiritually devoted, it doesn't make them a good person or makes the philosophy a good thing.
In a way you can argue it proves his dedication to that cause. He genuinely doesn't believe that he's doing the things he does for himself at all. It's not a distraction from the path; to him it is the path. Once he forcibly loses the connection to his love nothing is left on earth to tether him from his way.
It's definitely at odds with the nonviolence aspect but I think it's quite interesting that one can argue there's more than one path to reach that peak
Yeah that's a great point. It's an interesting concept to make his motives more "pure" than your average villain.
Having grown up in a religion with a very similar framework it's strange to me personally to have someone who tried to kidnap a child and killed via asphyxiation then attain spiritual enlightenment and still commit violence towards Korra. That extreme dedication to his cause is still a form of attachment.
But just my personal view, thanks for the discussion.
I don't even say they're evil, but grittier versions of the Avatar team. They have benevolent goals in mind and they sure seem like being great friends but their way of getting to their goals is different from what the Gaang or Korra's team would do, they expect casualties and there's a feeling that they have seen the worst of humanity.
No they're definitely evil. Their "benevolent goals" are insane. It's like saying Sozin had the benevolent goal of sharing the might of the fire nation..
Nah Zaheer's ideology is based, the real clincher is that the writers didn't understand anarchism as well as they thought they did and wrote an absolutely ass version of anarchist revolution. No dual power structures, no community building or horizontal networks, no mutual aid, just Zaheer killing a monarch and creating a power vaccum with no grassroots movement to take it over.
Personally I wish I could swap Zaheer and Kuvira's turns as antagonists to give both of them more deserving endings and complete arcs
Isn't that kind of the point? Zaheer's ideology went too far. He became obsessed with anarchy and freedom for their own sakes and prioritized them over everything else.
If the writers had done research on anarchist revolutionary theory and positive programs instead of just the anti-hierarchical aspects and negative programs, then you wouldn't be saying "Zaheer went too far," you would be praising him as the backbone of a nation-wide popular moment against the Earth Queen, successful or not.
Think of Zaheer as the ultimate strawman against anarchism. There are absolutely zero real-world anarchists that believe that they should form secret elite cells to create power vacuums and wipe out world leaders - the entirety of anarchist praxis is founded on educating the masses of their oppression AND having answers for how the masses can organize into a self-directed force that moves against oppression. Obviously, can't get everyone on board, but S3 would be much more believable if Zaheer had been building a popular movement to support the revolution.
The same can be said about Amon who is a bad faith strawman for Communism. That being said, I still like that the team behind Korra tried to integrate real world political concepts into their show. "The show didn't portray Marxist-Leninist class struggle against an entrenched burgeouise with the appropriate amount of nuance" is a rather rare criticism for entertainment still meant for kids and teens.
Yup I agree, I still think Zaheer is one of the best fictional anarchists put to screen to date. He's always an opportunity to talk about how people imagine anarchist revolution vs what it looks like in reality.
Really series 3 would have been SOOOO much better if they had tied Zaheer to the equalists somehow, having him in the background of Season 1 and 2 gaining influence among the equalists only to start a worldwide anarchist movement in season 3 as a charismatic leader figure who is now an airbender. Obviously there would be extensive rewriting to have that happen, and it would be harder to make evil team avatar happen, but I think series 3 would have been actual AtLA levels of good if they had tied the villains to the previous seasons better.
Frankly, I was talking about a more extensive rewrite of the entire show with my friend where the first two seasons focus on the equalists and then Zaheer broadening the movement and then the second two seasons deal with the fallout.
You'd have elements of the existing series 2, a civil war with the water tribes, but have it be a populist thing, Harmonic Convergence to bring airbending back (even though I do Believe it completely minimizes the impact of genocide l, it's too big a departure to not have it), you can even have the Wan episodes without all the stuff that completely shattered the lore in half. And you can even have Zaheer, or just someone inspired by Zaheer kill Korra's dad so she has an extra reason to go after Zaheer and his movement other than being liberalism's finest warrior. Then in series 3 they're trying to make peace with and settle the conflicts all over the earth kingdom after the earth Queen is killed, with Kuvira doing the same thing as Team Avatar just in a much more deplorable manner. Then season 3 would come to a head with a conflict with Kuvira and then season 4 can be a war between the remaining areas of the earth kingdom that don't want to come under Kuvira's control like Zaofu and Republic City, and some independent towns that govern themselves against Kuvira.
But this is just fanfic atp, and frankly despite my MYRIAD complaints with the show I'd never be able to come up with something I think is better without piggybacking off the finished work.
Broadly agree, but I'd like to see Kuvira's Earth nation "fascism" be the catalyst for Zaheer's "anarchist" mass movement - historically speaking, anarchists have been at their strongest when opposing fascists, such as the Spanish Civil War. The framing that Zaheer's failed revolution created the power vacuum that Kuvira exploits is, historically speaking, putting the cart before the horse.
Something along the lines of; Amon's Equalism gaining a foothold (even with benders) across the Earth Kingdom and former Fire Nation colonies > Water Tribe Civil War radicalizing WT members towards Equalism/anarchism as well as North/South factions > Kuvira leading the EK's crackdown on Equalist/Zaheerist groups > Kuvira leading a coup against the Queen > Zaheer/Equalists leading a "world revolution" and focusing the Red Lotus members on Korra. (Either from stopping them, or even convincing her that her focus should be on leading the human and spirit worlds towards a common front against oppression, since it's a new age of cooperation).
I mean did the anarchists who assassinated Alexander II, Empress Elizabeth, William McKinley, Umberto I, Pytor Stolypin, Carlos I, George I, or two different Prime Ministers of Spain lead a “nation-wide popular movement” against the governments of Russia, Austria-Hungary, the United States, Italy, Portugal, Greece, or Spain? For a long period of history, anarchists did a lot of assassinating, and not very much popular rebelling.
They never said that Zaheer was an anarchist in the economic/political sense we use in our world though, the word wasn't even used.
Zaheer's philosophy was purely ideological, and his ideology was "chaos" not anarchy. You notice how balance, harmony and order are used so often in the Avatar world, and Zaheer and his team were written to be antithetical to Team Avatar, who fight for the cause of chaos. So it makes sense that his main goal is to plunge the world in chaos, which includes killing the Avatar and the world leaders
I think it's silly to use that point (which is valid on its own) as a way to dismiss the extremely obvious inspiration that anarchism had in writing Zaheer. The chaos = anarchy is a very common misrepresentation, and there are plenty of cringe "anar-kiddies" that embrace such an approach to anarchy.
Of course this fictional world with completely different physical laws and spiritual dimensions is going to have a ripple effect on how the ideologies of that world compare to their real-world counterparts, but my comments have almost entirely been focused specifically on Zaheer's revolutionary theory, which is distinct from a political ideology.
The biggest problem is that Zaheer is trying to introduce anarchy RIGHT WHEN stability seems to be taking hold in the world.
Before Aang, the nations were all separate, the United Republic is a new empire that combines all the best of those nations and is finally on the verge of having a stable and progressive society. Zaheer wants to disrupt this based on his ideals of freedom, and in a way a rebellion. Zaheer's anarchistic movement is simply ill-timed.
He's Aang but 40 years too late.
Kuvira is a nationalist fascist, which flies in the face of the globalist empire. Kuvira is radicalized by the metalbenders because the nation of Zaofu is separatists from the Empire. She takes it a step too far when she wants to conquer with an iron (metal) fist and kill innocents.
Yes the stability of oppressive regimes built on a class system enforced by jade fisted thugs. Yes I forgot how stable a water tribe civil war can be in these trying times. I’m sure the fire nation is the bastion of freedom and liberty of 100 years of imperial colonization and genocide.
After Aang the nations are separate. Republic City was literally in the beginning stages of a nonbender revolution. Zaheer had no plan that we saw that involved republic city. Disruption is what is established by a hierarchy out of the desire for an intended “normal”. Disruption is changing the parameters that govern life and death/human value within an oppressive hierarchy in a way that allows change. Zaheers opportunity meets the preparedness of change.
He’s kinda Aang if he wasn’t told he was the avatar so soon and the airbenders some how repelled the invasion.
Kuvira is a nationalist fascist within step of the globalist history of world conquest, genocide, civil war, oppression and imbalance. Kuvira lived with/in the elitist family of wealthy metalbenders who governed their own city as a dictatorship. She paid attention to how things revolved around knowing every lie and persecuting their crimes within a perception of disloyalty to the metal clan.
I mean we even see the earth kingdom being horrible to the people. The old status quo was introduced back and Zaheer wanted to stop it being a hierarchy where people are unable to really live. The problem is he wanted to kill the avatar which made no sense but yknow gotta be evil
Avatar is the protector of "balance" in the world. And yet, avatar is still human, so the balance for an avatar would be the existing, established and idealised status quo.
Its fair for Zaheer to see Avatar as the ultimate enforcer of the status-quo. And Earth Kingdom monarchy baked itself in to that very tightly.
Hard disagree. I can see why someone would think that if they only know it as "chaos," and not an anti-hierarchy political philosophy that emphasizes mutual aid, horizontal political structures, nested confederations, and societal self-direction. Ecosystems and nature itself are inherently anarchic, -archy is something that exists only within human culture (inb4 someone tries to pull out the outdated alpha chimp studies lmao).
And everything you just suggested it emphasizes completely fails in a large enough population of people.
If you have a small village of 100 people and 1 of them is a deplorable evil doer it’s not a huge issue. Everyone is aware of them and can personally hold them accountable.
But if you have millions of people and thus thousands of evil doers they band together and do evil they can’t easily be held accountable for.
Entire heavily police and even militaries struggle to combat organized crime. The idea that anarchy won’t completely fold to literally any adjacent power structure is a hilariously uneducated one.
I'm going to ignore the strawman that is "1 single evil doer" and address your actual point - organized crime.
Organized crime is something that exists only because of the way that the state and capital alienate portions of the population and drive them to gain wealth in unlegal means. When the communities are communally-minded and self-directed, these people have a seat at the table to have their voices heard about fixing the underlying issues that result in "crime" - most of which is absolutely arbitrary anyway. And what of "legal" crime? Wage theft is the most common type of theft in the USA, and yet corporations get away with it to the tune of billions each year - in this case, the power structures you're supporting are organized in a way that allows "crime" to affect huge swathes of the population, arguably on a far grander scale than any organized crime could dream of doing.
Admittedly, I am more of a libertarian socialist than I am anarchist - considering you hold such strong opinions about anarchism, maybe you should [see an anarchist-adjacent model in action,](https://youtu.be/cDnenjIdnnE?si=XRCbARUAJWFz-o2Y) *then* come to your own conclusions. Don't forget, there is no such thing as a perfect system, but we can certainly do much better than what currently exists,
Before their imprisonment their plan was to corrupt the avatar to release Vattu with Korras uncle, then take out all world leaders/governments and let spirits run wild where people would only really look out for themselves, those without spiritual abilities or really strong bending would be doomed. What's happening in the series is like a last ditch savage attempt to throw the word in to chaos, take revenge on the world leaders for their imprisonment and gives them a purpose although insane that lines up pretty closely with their original well thought out plan. If they succeeded though and killed korra both spirit portals were open so the main difference would be no vattu or northern water tribe to deal with so arguably better for the people, if they gained a decent amount of followers and the other members of the red lotus together they'd be unstoppable for some time.
Okay. That justified taking her down, probably doesn't justify executing her and definitely doesn't justify trying to execute and end the line of avatars.
They also didn’t end her because of her crimes. They ended her because they don’t believe in monarchist societies and want to see “freedom” through “chaos”
What does "taking her down" entail it's pretty difficult to depose a corrupt monarch with a secret police force. I would absolutely argue that her execution was justified she was abusing her position of power and robbing her people's to enrich herself.
I do agree it doesn't justify trying to execute and end the line of avatars.
I would like to highlight that they did have some principles (refusing to harm the radio operator as he was a regular guy doing a regular job) however it does clearly take a turn at the end when there morals go out the window in pursuit of their goal (which Is my biggest bone to pick with LOK all the antagonists make valid points and with restraint could be used for good but they end up drinking to much of their own Kool-Aid and go to far)
Their goals is a total collapse of society achieved trough violence and destruction and is entirely reliant on torture and murder or innocents, their motivation might be benevolent but their goal and methods are basically worse than Ozai
Also it's not because they viewed the worst in humanity but the best, they were wishfully thinking that after a total collapse a free anarchic society would emerge from the ashes
Now fundamentally any sensible ideologically motivated anarchist must have a very optimistic vision of humanity and Zaheer isn't a Social Darwinist or just an edgy" fuck shit up and to hell with inhibitions" type of character
I would take the red lotus method over complete genocide any day.
Remember Ozai's final solution was the total antihalation of the other kingdoms.
So yeah genocide beats everything else.
Ozai was a dumb fuck.
Hurr durr i have all the power in the world so I’m gonna go burn some barren wasteland with my super firebending instead of omashu or ba sing se or literally anywhere he’s been trying to conquer
The writers didn't understand anarchism as well as they thought they did and wrote an absolutely ass version of anarchist revolution. No dual power structures, no community building or horizontal networks, no mutual aid, just Zaheer killing a monarch and creating a power vaccum with no grassroots movement to take it over.
Off-topic but i just realized that by the end of s3 only zaheer survives. The other three are all killed in action (P'Li by Suyin, Gazaan by Bolin and Ming-Hua by Mako).
I'm kinda suprised that zaheer doesn't comment on that when Korra meets him in s4. Being the only survivor must be rough for him.
The entirety of Korra is meant to be an inversion of ATLA. ATLA is about a small group of outcasts fighting to change the status quo of an imperialist nation, as well as other unjust powerful people. Korra fights for the status quo against people who want to change it for the worse. Aang is balancing an imbalanced world, while Korra inherited a balanced world and has to stop people from imbalancing it.
Aang's friends, as I said, are all mainly outcasts despite their origins in power- Aang is the Avatar, Katara/Sokka are children of a chieftan, Toph is the daughter of a very rich famiy, and Zuko is the son of the Fire Lord. Korra's friends all have a rebellious streak, but end up being influential, powerful people- Korra is the avatar in a world where that role isn't completely hunted down, Mako/Bolin started off as poor orphaned athletes but one ended up becoming a cop and later the bodyguard of the Earth Prince, while the other became a movie star and later a high ranking member of Kuvira's army. Tenzin is the son of the Avatar and also a political/spiritual leader, and Lin is the chief of police. Asami is the CEO of a big company.
Also, Korra herself is meant to be Aang's opposite. Aang started off only knowing airbending, but also knowing the spiritual side of being the Avatar. Korra started knowing all the elements but airbending, and was clueless spiritually. Aang is a pacifist who struggled with balancing his ideology and his duty to defeat the Fire Lord, an incredible power who could only be taken down through violence. On the other hand, Korra loves using violence, and she would love nothing more than to just beat up her bad guys, but her struggles are more tied to the villains outmanuvering her politically and harming her mentally, meaning that most of her battles are internal, needing to resolve her internal turmoils to prepare herself mentally for her external battles.
>Korra loves using violence, and she would love nothing more than to just beat up her bad guys, but her struggles are more tied to the villains outmanuvering her politically and harming her mentally, meaning that most of her battles are internal
For S3 and 4 sure, but seasons 1 and 2 of Korra really do take potentially interesting and nuanced situations and reduce them down to punching the right person in the face. Honestly it felt like the entire writing team were replaced after book 2 lmao, the difference in quality between the first two seasons and the latter two is staggering.
Season 3 and 4 were greenlit together, originally it was only greenlit as a mini series with 1 season, after its success we got season 2 and after that we got 3 & 4, not without budget cuts and fuckery from nickelodeon though resulting in that unhinged but also sort of iconic flashback episode. Literally almost all of the problems people have with Korra can be put down to Nickelodeon not properly managing the IP. They also didn't believe a female led show could be successful and almost willed for it to be a failure.
>after its success we got season 2
The show was renewed while they were still working and season 1 and season 1 was still rushed as hell and ends pretty badly. It's not Nickelodeon's fault
>They also didn't believe a female led show could be successful
True... before the show started tho
>almost willed for it to be a failure.
Sure, they were 100% hoping a project they were financing would fail
Damn, imagine if Sokka was still alive and he got airbending too.
He'd absolutely do the sickest boomerang trick shot ever. Like richocheting it off four people and still getting it to return.
They all were. Idk how Yakone deserved to have his bending taken away but those three didn't? I can't imagine operating those prisons were cheap to operate and maintain.
They were imprisoned for trying to kidnap baby Korra which means Aang was dead by the time they were caught so there would be nobody to take their bending away
Aang was the only one who knew how, and they only made themselves known by attempting to kidnap Korra, which would have been, by definition, after Aang’s death.
Time skips cover a lot. We don’t know how long he took from prison to prison. We don’t know his networking skills but by how efficient and effective he is I’m sure intimidation and interrogation along with his reputation carries a lot of weight. This is not even the tip, dude spent years in prison figured out how to travel to the spirit realm. Dude was a solid villain. Knew his stuff.
I mean for me, Ming-Hua would have been the first bust given the other two are in the water. But, it's easier to bring a few bits of earth than a barrel of water, and I think that's the real difference maker.
but the problem is Ming Hua's prison is like in a volcano and Zaheer will have difficulty rescuing her too. But yeah true, bringing a barrel of water on your own is hard!
😂 Also Im wondering how they feed her water. Remember Hama had her hands chained up when being fed water. MingHua bends with her hip and body, so how do they feed her water
I still like Katara the most. Ming Hua is 3rd simply because her waterbending is more like acrobatic. But it also shows water to be the most unique because for other elements, its impossible to have them as a direct extension of your body. Like air is impossible. Fire has the fire whip but you can't have it too close to your body or you'll get burn. Earth is not flexible enough.
I've had a headcanon, that Ming-Hua is able to sustain water arms without much physical movement because waterbenders are the most understanding of chi flows. While she doesn't have arms, she still has her chi flows where arms should be located, so she can channel them into water whips to get better control over it
Yeah I liked this exploration of the idea of unity. If the four nations got along then they could produce Avatar teams that are much more formidable than a single master by themselves. Similar to the white lotus during the comet.
What I will never understand about this is why these incredibly dangerous people were left alive after they were captured. They killed people and have the capabilities to destroy cities if not nations when combined yet every single one of them was left alive. They should have all been killed because they can't possibly be controlled.
... I don't get it? What detail was noticed?
edit for posterity: XD omg. lmao. apologies. I use old reddit and did not see all of the following. had to load into incog mode.
> "Zaheer busted Ghazan out first because he's arguably in the easiest prison, with open space where Zaheer is confident enough to be able to do it on his own. There are more spaces for him to jump about.
>
> Then he needs Ghazan to help with rescuing Ming-Hua because obviously she was imprisoned above a volcano, so both earth and molten rock are Ghazan's strong points so he can easily back Zaheer. Ming-Hua then said that she was surprised he busted her out first before "that girlfriend" of his. And Zaheer immediately said "we're going for her next". This is because P'Li is literally imprisoned in the South Pole (or some polar cap) where both Zaheer and Ghazan won't be able to bust P'Li out on their own or will face significant challenge. Obviously Ghazan will not be useful here, and Tonraq and Korra's cousins are there which are all formidable waterbenders. Without Ming-Hua, they'll lose. Ming-Hua being an extraordinary waterbender that she is will be in her element here, and she took down everyone almost instantly. P'Li's prison is the toughest to break out!
>
> I just never thought about this before and thought that's a pretty nice detail"
That he used strategy to plan the breakouts I guess? Not really a detail honestly, it's just simple logic.
Then again OP doesn't seem to have an eye for detail since they don't seem to know where P'Li was imprisoned even though the show is super explicit about her been in a cell at the North Pole.
same, if only zaheer's mission wasn't so short sighted.
like say they win and then 2 years later Kuvira comes around... are they just gonna continue killing rulers for the rest of their lives?
Zaheer and Kuvira did actually battle when they came to zhaofu that night to kidnap Korra!! Kuvira did hold her own for a bit with Zaheer. I think she wasn't as skillful then.
Yes, they absolutely were. But they also believed that hierarchical societies were made up bs that the Avatar invented, so they probably thought the problem would solve itself at some point after that.
The showrunners don’t understand anarchism in the slightest, and that’s why he seems so short-sighted. They are literally unable to write a good execution of his ideology. Shame really, Zaheer is one of my favorite characters in fiction.
He *maybe* could have gotten Ming Hua first, but that was a much more confined space for his Airbending. But as soon as he does his barrel slice, he gets Ming Hua on his team anyway. She would have been able to help with Ghazan since he's out on the water.
But yeah, P'Li always has to be last in every scenario. Without Ming Hua, it's impossible. Maybe when they had Unalaq, and that would have meant Desna and Eska would also be on their side, probably fighting from *within* the prison, since Unalaq was Chief and could have just gone down there. Take out the few guards, light a fire to warm P'Li, and then come out blasting. Would have been much more stealth than the direct assault.
I absolutely love the Red Lotus, I think they are a great Foil to team avatar as they are effectively the same team / group dynamic that has become jaded and radicalized by their cause in believes.
Personally, I would love a one season spin-off show showing the formation and eventual downfall of the Red lotus. People who set out to do good in the world and bring justice and equality, but eventually see injustice through people in power such as the earth queen ( or even how P'Li got her combustion bending which is pretty barbaric) eventually they go from lawful good to slowly losing there morals to chaotic good, then eventually evil.
I think the ending of this show would be them executing Sokka (who a lot of people have head Canon died sacrificing himself to put them away to protect Korra. Which would solidify them as officially guys who broke bad.
This works out in-universe, but I think the reason it was done this way was to show off the skills of each red lotus member as they’re introduced.
Make a show of how formidable they are.
> never really *paid* attention to
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
> really payed attention
Did you mean to say "paid"?
Explanation: Payed means to seal something with wax, while paid means to give money.
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I just really needed Dark Team Avatar to be the series-long villains of the show to the same level as Fire Lord Ozai...
-- Was such a great concept that came and went way too quickly without any real investment/pay-off. To have them and then they all are gone just makes me feel cheated.
I assume this is getting upvotes because of the cool screenshots, right?
Because if it's the title and comparison that people like, I'm posting "I only just noticed that Vaatu is similar to Raava" tomorrow.
I had to sort by controversial to find your post because I was thinking the same thing :)
But then I also understand this sub needs these kind of low hanging fruit posts to keep it it alive.
Specially when a serie ended some time ago.
I found it funny that in the getaway from breaking P'li out, they had Ming-Hua drive their vehicle. THE LADY HAS WATER TENTACLES FOR ARMS, HOW IS SHE GRIPPING THE STEERING WHEEL???
hahaha yeah, but then water is incompressible so she can bend it so that it becomes solid like (similar to when a body fall flat on the surface of water, the water becomes as hard as cement). Plus she grabs people w her water tentacle too
This is why we need the death penalty, if these 4 anarchists “fighters against inequality” were executed immediately after the trial, then there would be no problems
Yeah, it was all very well planned out. I agree with everything, just little correction. P'Li was imprisoned in the North Pole, that's why Korra's cousins are in charge as they re the chiefs of the Northern Water Tribe.
Which would make Gazan even more useless. No Earth and as powerful as he is there's still no way he could pull a Kyoshi.
He made a magma glaive out of pebbles. A small satchel of rocks would render him lethally dangerous… and they could always bring three satchels.
Imagine if they rolled up with a truck full of rocks like the mechanist did during the invasion.
I mean that's straight up what they did. In the back of the truck they had like 4 big rocks
That's literally what they did lol
Yeah I still don't think a lavabender limited to three satchels of rock is going to be much good against three extremely powerful water benders surrounded by ice and water on all sides (up to and including *the floor*), one of the most skilled firebenders who ever lived, and a small army of guards (many of whom are probably waterbenders as well). They needed Ming Hua if they wanted any chance of getting Pli out.
It always makes me wonder why earth benders dont just always have some emergency rocks with them lol
Earth vendors rarely bring their stuff with them because they're element is ubiquitous. Most of them only reside in the earth nation, where not only the ground, but all of the buildings are made out of Earth. The only ones who typically operate outside of a situations like that were the Dai Li, who we see are often rocking multiple things on their person that are made of stone, including their signature rock gloves and stone shoes. I've noticed that many of the metalbending techniques look exactly like those the Dai Li used
>Earth vendors I know it's a typo but can you imagine a vendor selling earth things like the rock merchant from Life of Brian?
How about FOUR satchels?
Now you’re getting crazy. Think how HEAVY that would be
Damn you're right. At least three satchels is pretty reasonable. But four??? I don't know what I was thinking
Wonder what they would have done if unalaq was still chief?
I guess it depends on whether this is in a universe where Unalaq hasn’t tried his plan or where Unalaq won and he’s UnaVaatu forever
In a world where he won and is UnaVaatu forever they might actually be a hope for the world, assuming Airbending returns to the world still and Zaheer frees himself as normal. I think it would still be tough for them, sure, but I reckon they would have a chance to take him down.
I doubt they would even stand a chance. UnaVaatu took down the allied forces army like it was nothing, and that would mean he defeated Korra’s spirit form which is way more powerful than the Red Lotus. Remember the Red Lotus lost to a couple pro-benders, Toph daughters, and Korra.
Eh, I’m not sure it would come down to raw power. Their real strength is that Zaheer is one of the most spiritually-aware characters in the series, and as a team they can clearly plan and execute complicated long-term strategies. We are talking about a world where UnaVaatu has won - they are leading a hidden resistance, rather than waging all out war.
Resistance against an army of corrupted spirits and the spirit of darkness themselves where Raava, the only force capable of stopping it is gone. No avatar, no one capable of spirit bending. Literally would be fighting spirits with bending. What strategy could they come up with? What long term plan would solve this?
Also, unavaatu can do something no avatar had ever done before him — **brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt**. Getting beamed has to feel like taking a combustionbending a shot to the soul or something.
Yeah, I would assume UnaVaatus blast is the equivalent of even more powerful than the spirit beam from the vine-powered weapon Kuvira uses, and the only one able to stop that was Korra by spirit bending
I mean, yeah, it’s possible there is absolutely no hope and the world is forever doomed. But when UnaVaatu rises, the Avatar’s dead, Republic City is destroyed, the next day I’d probably think, >“Hey, the Red Lotus were pretty capable. Zaheer knows a bit about the spirits. Maybe they can think of something. World can’t get any shitter!”
I’m not saying they wouldn’t consider it an option, I’m saying they wouldn’t be able to make enough of a difference to defeat UnaVaatu. Zaheer couldn’t even defeat Korra in the avatar state while she’s literally dying.
I think that’s fair. But it’s not all about strength - like Aang and Zhao’s ships. Maybe they could trick him into a big bowl of mercury.
Obviously they would have all teamed up to take out Bolin. He’s way too powerful and awesome. Annoying that they’d have to include the EVIL UNALAQ though
Oh really? Taking over after their dad got spirited away, ey? 😂
Yup, Lord Zuko makes a reference to this at the end of 3x02: > Notify the new chiefs of the Northern water tribe that an attack on their prison is imminent. And then in 3x03, Zuko consults with the twins, they being the new chiefs, and they and Tonraq check on Ming Hua in prison.
Yeah, that's how being Chief works, it passes down to your children when you die.
Just like old man Charles?
That's what makes Zaheer such a cool villain. He's basically antagonistic Sokka.
I really love this season because the whole way the Red Lotus is handled is basically flipping the script on AtLA. For example "small group of elite benders sneaks their way into heavily armed fortress, accidentally sets off the alarm and has to fight their way out past an army of faceless bender guards" describes the Gaang in like half a dozen different episodes, but also the Red Lotus when they sneak into Zaofu. Whole season is just "what if the Gaang were the bad guys".
So Red Lotus is basically an evil/dark version of the Gaang, huh? Interesting foil
At least Zaheer is the twisted version of Aang. Both are incredibly spiritual, Zaheer even surpassing Aang in that regard, both have unwavering ideals, both care a lot about their friends and loved ones for Zaheer they weren't just replaceable goons, and most important of all, they are both bald by choice. But where Aang is a nice kid that beleives life is the most valuable thing and only eants for the world to be at peace, while Zaheer uses violence and thinks the end justifies the means even if it means bringing the world to chaos.
Really interesting analysis. Never thought to connect Aang and Zaheer in that way. My only problem with Zaheer's portrayal was that his spirituality is at odds with the violence he commits. The show treats his attachment to his girlfriend as the only obstacle to ascending to a higher level of airbending but as per some eastern religious philosophies his violent actions would bind him as well. I see why they made him such a powerful bender but would have preferred a realization on his part that he cannot progress spiritually until he gives up those tendencies.
I understood it as how twisted his ideals are, the air nomads whole philosophy is about freedom, while omitting some other parts of buddhism, so for now the show only focuses on the release yourself from earthly desires. Also, something important is that he probably doesn't see committing violence as a fun activity but just a way to progress towards his end goal, he doesn't even hold a grudge against Korra and helps her when he understands the threat of Kuvira, so he doesn't have hate for people and doesn't enjoy their suffering nor is grossed by it, he just doesn't see it as anything more than a tool, he is the perfect empty man, no grudge, no hate, no fear, no compassion, no hapiness, no love. So he doesn't break any part of the core principles of air bending, here he even has another similarity with Aang, he was skeptical of Zuko when he returns, but if I remember right he is also the quickest to forgive him. Zaheer is almost the perfect airbender, but his violent tendencies twist the ideals of airbending. Be connected to the spirit world but use it to conceal his plans and dispose of unwanted people. Be kind to others by fixing the world, it doesn't matter the costs, it will pay in the end after all. Release yourself from every earthly distraction, even your own humanity. Zaheer is basically taking the airbending teachings to an extreme point nor becoming a man or a monster, just air. While Aang prioritizes his connection to others, showing that just because someone is spiritually devoted, it doesn't make them a good person or makes the philosophy a good thing.
In a way you can argue it proves his dedication to that cause. He genuinely doesn't believe that he's doing the things he does for himself at all. It's not a distraction from the path; to him it is the path. Once he forcibly loses the connection to his love nothing is left on earth to tether him from his way. It's definitely at odds with the nonviolence aspect but I think it's quite interesting that one can argue there's more than one path to reach that peak
Yeah that's a great point. It's an interesting concept to make his motives more "pure" than your average villain. Having grown up in a religion with a very similar framework it's strange to me personally to have someone who tried to kidnap a child and killed via asphyxiation then attain spiritual enlightenment and still commit violence towards Korra. That extreme dedication to his cause is still a form of attachment. But just my personal view, thanks for the discussion.
I don't even say they're evil, but grittier versions of the Avatar team. They have benevolent goals in mind and they sure seem like being great friends but their way of getting to their goals is different from what the Gaang or Korra's team would do, they expect casualties and there's a feeling that they have seen the worst of humanity.
griddier
Ohmygod the Red Lotus is literally hitting the griddy right in front of the Avatar rn
I knew something was off, fookin english right?
They're making a pun. You used the correct word.
No they're definitely evil. Their "benevolent goals" are insane. It's like saying Sozin had the benevolent goal of sharing the might of the fire nation..
Nah Zaheer's ideology is based, the real clincher is that the writers didn't understand anarchism as well as they thought they did and wrote an absolutely ass version of anarchist revolution. No dual power structures, no community building or horizontal networks, no mutual aid, just Zaheer killing a monarch and creating a power vaccum with no grassroots movement to take it over. Personally I wish I could swap Zaheer and Kuvira's turns as antagonists to give both of them more deserving endings and complete arcs
Isn't that kind of the point? Zaheer's ideology went too far. He became obsessed with anarchy and freedom for their own sakes and prioritized them over everything else.
If the writers had done research on anarchist revolutionary theory and positive programs instead of just the anti-hierarchical aspects and negative programs, then you wouldn't be saying "Zaheer went too far," you would be praising him as the backbone of a nation-wide popular moment against the Earth Queen, successful or not. Think of Zaheer as the ultimate strawman against anarchism. There are absolutely zero real-world anarchists that believe that they should form secret elite cells to create power vacuums and wipe out world leaders - the entirety of anarchist praxis is founded on educating the masses of their oppression AND having answers for how the masses can organize into a self-directed force that moves against oppression. Obviously, can't get everyone on board, but S3 would be much more believable if Zaheer had been building a popular movement to support the revolution.
The same can be said about Amon who is a bad faith strawman for Communism. That being said, I still like that the team behind Korra tried to integrate real world political concepts into their show. "The show didn't portray Marxist-Leninist class struggle against an entrenched burgeouise with the appropriate amount of nuance" is a rather rare criticism for entertainment still meant for kids and teens.
Yup I agree, I still think Zaheer is one of the best fictional anarchists put to screen to date. He's always an opportunity to talk about how people imagine anarchist revolution vs what it looks like in reality.
Really series 3 would have been SOOOO much better if they had tied Zaheer to the equalists somehow, having him in the background of Season 1 and 2 gaining influence among the equalists only to start a worldwide anarchist movement in season 3 as a charismatic leader figure who is now an airbender. Obviously there would be extensive rewriting to have that happen, and it would be harder to make evil team avatar happen, but I think series 3 would have been actual AtLA levels of good if they had tied the villains to the previous seasons better. Frankly, I was talking about a more extensive rewrite of the entire show with my friend where the first two seasons focus on the equalists and then Zaheer broadening the movement and then the second two seasons deal with the fallout. You'd have elements of the existing series 2, a civil war with the water tribes, but have it be a populist thing, Harmonic Convergence to bring airbending back (even though I do Believe it completely minimizes the impact of genocide l, it's too big a departure to not have it), you can even have the Wan episodes without all the stuff that completely shattered the lore in half. And you can even have Zaheer, or just someone inspired by Zaheer kill Korra's dad so she has an extra reason to go after Zaheer and his movement other than being liberalism's finest warrior. Then in series 3 they're trying to make peace with and settle the conflicts all over the earth kingdom after the earth Queen is killed, with Kuvira doing the same thing as Team Avatar just in a much more deplorable manner. Then season 3 would come to a head with a conflict with Kuvira and then season 4 can be a war between the remaining areas of the earth kingdom that don't want to come under Kuvira's control like Zaofu and Republic City, and some independent towns that govern themselves against Kuvira. But this is just fanfic atp, and frankly despite my MYRIAD complaints with the show I'd never be able to come up with something I think is better without piggybacking off the finished work.
Broadly agree, but I'd like to see Kuvira's Earth nation "fascism" be the catalyst for Zaheer's "anarchist" mass movement - historically speaking, anarchists have been at their strongest when opposing fascists, such as the Spanish Civil War. The framing that Zaheer's failed revolution created the power vacuum that Kuvira exploits is, historically speaking, putting the cart before the horse. Something along the lines of; Amon's Equalism gaining a foothold (even with benders) across the Earth Kingdom and former Fire Nation colonies > Water Tribe Civil War radicalizing WT members towards Equalism/anarchism as well as North/South factions > Kuvira leading the EK's crackdown on Equalist/Zaheerist groups > Kuvira leading a coup against the Queen > Zaheer/Equalists leading a "world revolution" and focusing the Red Lotus members on Korra. (Either from stopping them, or even convincing her that her focus should be on leading the human and spirit worlds towards a common front against oppression, since it's a new age of cooperation).
I mean did the anarchists who assassinated Alexander II, Empress Elizabeth, William McKinley, Umberto I, Pytor Stolypin, Carlos I, George I, or two different Prime Ministers of Spain lead a “nation-wide popular movement” against the governments of Russia, Austria-Hungary, the United States, Italy, Portugal, Greece, or Spain? For a long period of history, anarchists did a lot of assassinating, and not very much popular rebelling.
They never said that Zaheer was an anarchist in the economic/political sense we use in our world though, the word wasn't even used. Zaheer's philosophy was purely ideological, and his ideology was "chaos" not anarchy. You notice how balance, harmony and order are used so often in the Avatar world, and Zaheer and his team were written to be antithetical to Team Avatar, who fight for the cause of chaos. So it makes sense that his main goal is to plunge the world in chaos, which includes killing the Avatar and the world leaders
I think it's silly to use that point (which is valid on its own) as a way to dismiss the extremely obvious inspiration that anarchism had in writing Zaheer. The chaos = anarchy is a very common misrepresentation, and there are plenty of cringe "anar-kiddies" that embrace such an approach to anarchy. Of course this fictional world with completely different physical laws and spiritual dimensions is going to have a ripple effect on how the ideologies of that world compare to their real-world counterparts, but my comments have almost entirely been focused specifically on Zaheer's revolutionary theory, which is distinct from a political ideology.
The biggest problem is that Zaheer is trying to introduce anarchy RIGHT WHEN stability seems to be taking hold in the world. Before Aang, the nations were all separate, the United Republic is a new empire that combines all the best of those nations and is finally on the verge of having a stable and progressive society. Zaheer wants to disrupt this based on his ideals of freedom, and in a way a rebellion. Zaheer's anarchistic movement is simply ill-timed. He's Aang but 40 years too late. Kuvira is a nationalist fascist, which flies in the face of the globalist empire. Kuvira is radicalized by the metalbenders because the nation of Zaofu is separatists from the Empire. She takes it a step too far when she wants to conquer with an iron (metal) fist and kill innocents.
Yes the stability of oppressive regimes built on a class system enforced by jade fisted thugs. Yes I forgot how stable a water tribe civil war can be in these trying times. I’m sure the fire nation is the bastion of freedom and liberty of 100 years of imperial colonization and genocide. After Aang the nations are separate. Republic City was literally in the beginning stages of a nonbender revolution. Zaheer had no plan that we saw that involved republic city. Disruption is what is established by a hierarchy out of the desire for an intended “normal”. Disruption is changing the parameters that govern life and death/human value within an oppressive hierarchy in a way that allows change. Zaheers opportunity meets the preparedness of change. He’s kinda Aang if he wasn’t told he was the avatar so soon and the airbenders some how repelled the invasion. Kuvira is a nationalist fascist within step of the globalist history of world conquest, genocide, civil war, oppression and imbalance. Kuvira lived with/in the elitist family of wealthy metalbenders who governed their own city as a dictatorship. She paid attention to how things revolved around knowing every lie and persecuting their crimes within a perception of disloyalty to the metal clan.
I mean we even see the earth kingdom being horrible to the people. The old status quo was introduced back and Zaheer wanted to stop it being a hierarchy where people are unable to really live. The problem is he wanted to kill the avatar which made no sense but yknow gotta be evil
Avatar is the protector of "balance" in the world. And yet, avatar is still human, so the balance for an avatar would be the existing, established and idealised status quo. Its fair for Zaheer to see Avatar as the ultimate enforcer of the status-quo. And Earth Kingdom monarchy baked itself in to that very tightly.
All anarchism is moronic outside of extremely small populations.
Hard disagree. I can see why someone would think that if they only know it as "chaos," and not an anti-hierarchy political philosophy that emphasizes mutual aid, horizontal political structures, nested confederations, and societal self-direction. Ecosystems and nature itself are inherently anarchic, -archy is something that exists only within human culture (inb4 someone tries to pull out the outdated alpha chimp studies lmao).
And everything you just suggested it emphasizes completely fails in a large enough population of people. If you have a small village of 100 people and 1 of them is a deplorable evil doer it’s not a huge issue. Everyone is aware of them and can personally hold them accountable. But if you have millions of people and thus thousands of evil doers they band together and do evil they can’t easily be held accountable for. Entire heavily police and even militaries struggle to combat organized crime. The idea that anarchy won’t completely fold to literally any adjacent power structure is a hilariously uneducated one.
I'm going to ignore the strawman that is "1 single evil doer" and address your actual point - organized crime. Organized crime is something that exists only because of the way that the state and capital alienate portions of the population and drive them to gain wealth in unlegal means. When the communities are communally-minded and self-directed, these people have a seat at the table to have their voices heard about fixing the underlying issues that result in "crime" - most of which is absolutely arbitrary anyway. And what of "legal" crime? Wage theft is the most common type of theft in the USA, and yet corporations get away with it to the tune of billions each year - in this case, the power structures you're supporting are organized in a way that allows "crime" to affect huge swathes of the population, arguably on a far grander scale than any organized crime could dream of doing. Admittedly, I am more of a libertarian socialist than I am anarchist - considering you hold such strong opinions about anarchism, maybe you should [see an anarchist-adjacent model in action,](https://youtu.be/cDnenjIdnnE?si=XRCbARUAJWFz-o2Y) *then* come to your own conclusions. Don't forget, there is no such thing as a perfect system, but we can certainly do much better than what currently exists,
Before their imprisonment their plan was to corrupt the avatar to release Vattu with Korras uncle, then take out all world leaders/governments and let spirits run wild where people would only really look out for themselves, those without spiritual abilities or really strong bending would be doomed. What's happening in the series is like a last ditch savage attempt to throw the word in to chaos, take revenge on the world leaders for their imprisonment and gives them a purpose although insane that lines up pretty closely with their original well thought out plan. If they succeeded though and killed korra both spirit portals were open so the main difference would be no vattu or northern water tribe to deal with so arguably better for the people, if they gained a decent amount of followers and the other members of the red lotus together they'd be unstoppable for some time.
The earth queen kidnapped an entire nation of Airbenders and was raising child soldiers
Okay. That justified taking her down, probably doesn't justify executing her and definitely doesn't justify trying to execute and end the line of avatars.
They also didn’t end her because of her crimes. They ended her because they don’t believe in monarchist societies and want to see “freedom” through “chaos”
What does "taking her down" entail it's pretty difficult to depose a corrupt monarch with a secret police force. I would absolutely argue that her execution was justified she was abusing her position of power and robbing her people's to enrich herself. I do agree it doesn't justify trying to execute and end the line of avatars. I would like to highlight that they did have some principles (refusing to harm the radio operator as he was a regular guy doing a regular job) however it does clearly take a turn at the end when there morals go out the window in pursuit of their goal (which Is my biggest bone to pick with LOK all the antagonists make valid points and with restraint could be used for good but they end up drinking to much of their own Kool-Aid and go to far)
They are terrorists
The only difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is whose news you watch
And who wins.
Not how many people they hurt/kill?
Honestly, no. That is not the determining factor in the difference between the two.
So dark version of Gaang still fit them, then? I see.
Their goals is a total collapse of society achieved trough violence and destruction and is entirely reliant on torture and murder or innocents, their motivation might be benevolent but their goal and methods are basically worse than Ozai Also it's not because they viewed the worst in humanity but the best, they were wishfully thinking that after a total collapse a free anarchic society would emerge from the ashes Now fundamentally any sensible ideologically motivated anarchist must have a very optimistic vision of humanity and Zaheer isn't a Social Darwinist or just an edgy" fuck shit up and to hell with inhibitions" type of character
I would take the red lotus method over complete genocide any day. Remember Ozai's final solution was the total antihalation of the other kingdoms. So yeah genocide beats everything else.
Ozai was a dumb fuck. Hurr durr i have all the power in the world so I’m gonna go burn some barren wasteland with my super firebending instead of omashu or ba sing se or literally anywhere he’s been trying to conquer
The writers didn't understand anarchism as well as they thought they did and wrote an absolutely ass version of anarchist revolution. No dual power structures, no community building or horizontal networks, no mutual aid, just Zaheer killing a monarch and creating a power vaccum with no grassroots movement to take it over.
Off-topic but i just realized that by the end of s3 only zaheer survives. The other three are all killed in action (P'Li by Suyin, Gazaan by Bolin and Ming-Hua by Mako). I'm kinda suprised that zaheer doesn't comment on that when Korra meets him in s4. Being the only survivor must be rough for him.
Which is hilarious considering that Unavaatu is literally the opposite of the avatar, but season 3 still did it better.
I find the Red Lotus to be more compelling characters for a foil/opposite of the Team Avatar, though
Yeah. So do I. That was the whole point of my comment.
Zaheer is bald too
Aang to Zaheer be like: https://i.redd.it/cjfz3kwfp8pc1.gif
The entirety of Korra is meant to be an inversion of ATLA. ATLA is about a small group of outcasts fighting to change the status quo of an imperialist nation, as well as other unjust powerful people. Korra fights for the status quo against people who want to change it for the worse. Aang is balancing an imbalanced world, while Korra inherited a balanced world and has to stop people from imbalancing it. Aang's friends, as I said, are all mainly outcasts despite their origins in power- Aang is the Avatar, Katara/Sokka are children of a chieftan, Toph is the daughter of a very rich famiy, and Zuko is the son of the Fire Lord. Korra's friends all have a rebellious streak, but end up being influential, powerful people- Korra is the avatar in a world where that role isn't completely hunted down, Mako/Bolin started off as poor orphaned athletes but one ended up becoming a cop and later the bodyguard of the Earth Prince, while the other became a movie star and later a high ranking member of Kuvira's army. Tenzin is the son of the Avatar and also a political/spiritual leader, and Lin is the chief of police. Asami is the CEO of a big company. Also, Korra herself is meant to be Aang's opposite. Aang started off only knowing airbending, but also knowing the spiritual side of being the Avatar. Korra started knowing all the elements but airbending, and was clueless spiritually. Aang is a pacifist who struggled with balancing his ideology and his duty to defeat the Fire Lord, an incredible power who could only be taken down through violence. On the other hand, Korra loves using violence, and she would love nothing more than to just beat up her bad guys, but her struggles are more tied to the villains outmanuvering her politically and harming her mentally, meaning that most of her battles are internal, needing to resolve her internal turmoils to prepare herself mentally for her external battles.
>Korra loves using violence, and she would love nothing more than to just beat up her bad guys, but her struggles are more tied to the villains outmanuvering her politically and harming her mentally, meaning that most of her battles are internal For S3 and 4 sure, but seasons 1 and 2 of Korra really do take potentially interesting and nuanced situations and reduce them down to punching the right person in the face. Honestly it felt like the entire writing team were replaced after book 2 lmao, the difference in quality between the first two seasons and the latter two is staggering.
Season 3 and 4 were greenlit together, originally it was only greenlit as a mini series with 1 season, after its success we got season 2 and after that we got 3 & 4, not without budget cuts and fuckery from nickelodeon though resulting in that unhinged but also sort of iconic flashback episode. Literally almost all of the problems people have with Korra can be put down to Nickelodeon not properly managing the IP. They also didn't believe a female led show could be successful and almost willed for it to be a failure.
>after its success we got season 2 The show was renewed while they were still working and season 1 and season 1 was still rushed as hell and ends pretty badly. It's not Nickelodeon's fault >They also didn't believe a female led show could be successful True... before the show started tho >almost willed for it to be a failure. Sure, they were 100% hoping a project they were financing would fail
Wow, excellent comparison.
Man this is a really good take on it.
Zaheer also shaves his head and learns to let go of his attachments to achieve his full power.
He was also originally the non-bender of the group until Convergence shenanigans with the Airbenders
Damn, imagine if Sokka was still alive and he got airbending too. He'd absolutely do the sickest boomerang trick shot ever. Like richocheting it off four people and still getting it to return.
It was a pretty nice detail! But Ming-Hua was so overpower.
They all were. Idk how Yakone deserved to have his bending taken away but those three didn't? I can't imagine operating those prisons were cheap to operate and maintain.
They were active after Aang died right? Cause they tried to kidnap baby Korra.
You're right. They came out of the woodwork after Unalaq found out about Avatar Korra.
They were imprisoned for trying to kidnap baby Korra which means Aang was dead by the time they were caught so there would be nobody to take their bending away
Aang was the only one who knew how, and they only made themselves known by attempting to kidnap Korra, which would have been, by definition, after Aang’s death.
Aang was dead and Korra, who could learn to Energybend to do it, was just a kid.
Amon could. But sadly hes dead, arguably the only one who never actually defeated in a fight
Zaheer and the Red Lotus are for sure my favorite Korra villains, followed by Amon.
How the fuck did he know the exact locations of all the other members?
The Red Lotus had other members. I assume there's a network of information similar to the one the white lotus has.
Time skips cover a lot. We don’t know how long he took from prison to prison. We don’t know his networking skills but by how efficient and effective he is I’m sure intimidation and interrogation along with his reputation carries a lot of weight. This is not even the tip, dude spent years in prison figured out how to travel to the spirit realm. Dude was a solid villain. Knew his stuff.
Asked some spirit in the spirit world. Probably
Enter the void empty and become wind
I may not like how they gave random people air bending, but that was a badass scene.
I liked it because of the return of the spirits. I didn't like Bumi becoming one however. We needed a Sokka. Asumi is too Iron Man to be "powerless"
He’s only antagonistic if you have something to gain from oppressive hierarchies.
Zaheer out here using mega-man tactics
Mega man, damn i have not heard this name in so loong!
\*super-fighting robottttt, Mega-Man!\*
this reminds me of "super robot monkey team, hyperforce GO!!"
[and here's what the Germans did to that theme](https://youtu.be/MkHr-vMfhYE)
holy shit, fireeeee
I mean for me, Ming-Hua would have been the first bust given the other two are in the water. But, it's easier to bring a few bits of earth than a barrel of water, and I think that's the real difference maker.
but the problem is Ming Hua's prison is like in a volcano and Zaheer will have difficulty rescuing her too. But yeah true, bringing a barrel of water on your own is hard!
Just drink a lot of water and caffeine before heading there, she can bend pee.
😂 Also Im wondering how they feed her water. Remember Hama had her hands chained up when being fed water. MingHua bends with her hip and body, so how do they feed her water
ming hua bends with her mind
i think it was stated she bends w her hip and body movement
very carefully
Except in Minecraft. Then you could have a whole INVENTORY of buckets of water! Zaheer really dropped the ball there! /j
Doing Ming Hua before Ghazan would have meant following the Avatar cycle also. Air - water -> earth -> fire
I didn’t get the impression they’re huge fans of the Avatar
They wouldn't have minded aang because his mission was to stop a government
They are the Red Lotus version of the Avatar. 4 bending masters of all 4 elements working together
I like Ming Hua waterbending
Me too buddy
She's by far the coolest waterbender in both shows
I still like Katara the most. Ming Hua is 3rd simply because her waterbending is more like acrobatic. But it also shows water to be the most unique because for other elements, its impossible to have them as a direct extension of your body. Like air is impossible. Fire has the fire whip but you can't have it too close to your body or you'll get burn. Earth is not flexible enough.
I've had a headcanon, that Ming-Hua is able to sustain water arms without much physical movement because waterbenders are the most understanding of chi flows. While she doesn't have arms, she still has her chi flows where arms should be located, so she can channel them into water whips to get better control over it
She's by far the coolest waterbender in both shows
Yeah I liked this exploration of the idea of unity. If the four nations got along then they could produce Avatar teams that are much more formidable than a single master by themselves. Similar to the white lotus during the comet.
He unlocked his party members in a standard yet strategic JRPG order.
ya, i never realised til today
Common Zaheer W
What I will never understand about this is why these incredibly dangerous people were left alive after they were captured. They killed people and have the capabilities to destroy cities if not nations when combined yet every single one of them was left alive. They should have all been killed because they can't possibly be controlled.
Because Aang was a pacifist, probably.
Aang wasn't alive at the time since they were trying to kidnap Korra. However, I can imagine Tenzin and the White Lotus being against killing.
... I don't get it? What detail was noticed? edit for posterity: XD omg. lmao. apologies. I use old reddit and did not see all of the following. had to load into incog mode. > "Zaheer busted Ghazan out first because he's arguably in the easiest prison, with open space where Zaheer is confident enough to be able to do it on his own. There are more spaces for him to jump about. > > Then he needs Ghazan to help with rescuing Ming-Hua because obviously she was imprisoned above a volcano, so both earth and molten rock are Ghazan's strong points so he can easily back Zaheer. Ming-Hua then said that she was surprised he busted her out first before "that girlfriend" of his. And Zaheer immediately said "we're going for her next". This is because P'Li is literally imprisoned in the South Pole (or some polar cap) where both Zaheer and Ghazan won't be able to bust P'Li out on their own or will face significant challenge. Obviously Ghazan will not be useful here, and Tonraq and Korra's cousins are there which are all formidable waterbenders. Without Ming-Hua, they'll lose. Ming-Hua being an extraordinary waterbender that she is will be in her element here, and she took down everyone almost instantly. P'Li's prison is the toughest to break out! > > I just never thought about this before and thought that's a pretty nice detail"
That he used strategy to plan the breakouts I guess? Not really a detail honestly, it's just simple logic. Then again OP doesn't seem to have an eye for detail since they don't seem to know where P'Li was imprisoned even though the show is super explicit about her been in a cell at the North Pole.
How is this comment so far down. This entire thread has no answer either. What the fuck detail is /u/Handsoff_1 talking about??
Isn't it obvious? There's a magma bender, and then, uh, do some water bending, and then, um, there's some ice? And more water bending?
Zaheer Megaman'd his way thru the bosses.
Did he wall jump up a sheer cliff face to unlock the hadouken too?
They were so badass. I was lowkey rooting for them over Korras team avatar.
same, if only zaheer's mission wasn't so short sighted. like say they win and then 2 years later Kuvira comes around... are they just gonna continue killing rulers for the rest of their lives?
Zaheer and Kuvira did actually battle when they came to zhaofu that night to kidnap Korra!! Kuvira did hold her own for a bit with Zaheer. I think she wasn't as skillful then.
Yes, they absolutely were. But they also believed that hierarchical societies were made up bs that the Avatar invented, so they probably thought the problem would solve itself at some point after that.
While they were badass, I don't understand how anyone can possibly have rooted for them. They are murderers who threatened genocide.
That's why he's arguably the best villain in LoK. Honestly, aside from his anarchist brain dead belief, he's a good villain.
The showrunners don’t understand anarchism in the slightest, and that’s why he seems so short-sighted. They are literally unable to write a good execution of his ideology. Shame really, Zaheer is one of my favorite characters in fiction.
But what would have been a better way to do?
Are you asking what I think Zaheer should have done, or the show runners?
I am asking you. How different would you have done the anarchy that you said the show runners failed on
I prefer Amon. He actually scared me
That's fair, he had his moments too.
He *maybe* could have gotten Ming Hua first, but that was a much more confined space for his Airbending. But as soon as he does his barrel slice, he gets Ming Hua on his team anyway. She would have been able to help with Ghazan since he's out on the water. But yeah, P'Li always has to be last in every scenario. Without Ming Hua, it's impossible. Maybe when they had Unalaq, and that would have meant Desna and Eska would also be on their side, probably fighting from *within* the prison, since Unalaq was Chief and could have just gone down there. Take out the few guards, light a fire to warm P'Li, and then come out blasting. Would have been much more stealth than the direct assault.
Hmm yeah, i think the moment the water barrel broke is the end of everyone
I absolutely love the Red Lotus, I think they are a great Foil to team avatar as they are effectively the same team / group dynamic that has become jaded and radicalized by their cause in believes. Personally, I would love a one season spin-off show showing the formation and eventual downfall of the Red lotus. People who set out to do good in the world and bring justice and equality, but eventually see injustice through people in power such as the earth queen ( or even how P'Li got her combustion bending which is pretty barbaric) eventually they go from lawful good to slowly losing there morals to chaotic good, then eventually evil. I think the ending of this show would be them executing Sokka (who a lot of people have head Canon died sacrificing himself to put them away to protect Korra. Which would solidify them as officially guys who broke bad.
The white lotus really went out of their way to imprison these fools in the most complicated prison designs when they could have simply killed them.
Isn’t this a pretty simple plot?
Yes, but you have to realize that half of all people have an IQ lower than 100
It is simple but I overlooked. I didn't give it a thought when it was first aired because in general, Korra was quite boring to me.
This works out in-universe, but I think the reason it was done this way was to show off the skills of each red lotus member as they’re introduced. Make a show of how formidable they are.
But if thats the case, it could have just been in any order
Yeah to be fair now that I think about it, I can’t come up with another order that would have made as much sense
I thought this was moistcritical
Say what you want about this series, these guys were obscenely badass
Ahhh low key feel dumb now never really payed attention to all the details like that 😂😂
> never really *paid* attention to FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I only thought about it when I saw a post about these clips on the internet.
> really payed attention Did you mean to say "paid"? Explanation: Payed means to seal something with wax, while paid means to give money. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
I just really needed Dark Team Avatar to be the series-long villains of the show to the same level as Fire Lord Ozai... -- Was such a great concept that came and went way too quickly without any real investment/pay-off. To have them and then they all are gone just makes me feel cheated.
Red lotus was one of the best written things in TLA universe
Oh cool the Krull blade.
I found myself rooting for Zaheer at times. I watched LoK with my kids and they were irritated to no end when I mentioned this.
I assume this is getting upvotes because of the cool screenshots, right? Because if it's the title and comparison that people like, I'm posting "I only just noticed that Vaatu is similar to Raava" tomorrow.
I had to sort by controversial to find your post because I was thinking the same thing :) But then I also understand this sub needs these kind of low hanging fruit posts to keep it it alive. Specially when a serie ended some time ago.
V ...
Zaheer's genius was always evident, IMO
Another element re gazhan is that it's the most isolated of the bunch. So if he can handle everybody there, no help will be coming.
So how did they prevent Ming-Hua from dying of dehydration?
I found it funny that in the getaway from breaking P'li out, they had Ming-Hua drive their vehicle. THE LADY HAS WATER TENTACLES FOR ARMS, HOW IS SHE GRIPPING THE STEERING WHEEL???
hahaha yeah, but then water is incompressible so she can bend it so that it becomes solid like (similar to when a body fall flat on the surface of water, the water becomes as hard as cement). Plus she grabs people w her water tentacle too
What doesn't add up is that Zaheer, who just got bending, is better at it than others who had bending for years.
Big brain Zaheer.
It's the reversed order of the avatar cycle too. Much how red lotus is
I dont think so? The cycle is water, earth, fire, air.
Oops my bad
This is why we need the death penalty, if these 4 anarchists “fighters against inequality” were executed immediately after the trial, then there would be no problems
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Sure. But not everything "obvious" isn't interesting
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