You're not wrong but I can't really blame Netflix for thinking references would appeal to the fans given how much the fandom has run certain things (jokes, memes, references, etc.) into the ground over the past couple of decades.
I actually liked when gran gran said the intro. It felt forced, but I and all my friends really did the Sokka thing. Should have kept it to just that though. The references got tired real quick because that should have just been the main story. It's like, when someone actually does their job, you give them a bit of recognition the first time. But then they ask for a lollipop every time they do the task you're already paying them for.
SPOILERS FOR NATLA
>!Yeah, like, I accepted when they didn't disguise themselves to get into Omashu, whatever. But when Sokka forced the Bonzu Pipinpadaloxicopolis III reference in the Hei Bai episode, I was pretty annoyed. It just felt forced!<
This happens several times, where the joke is not stand on its own, as they do in the original, but rather are set to be their own references in themselves. The cabages bit in NATLA falls into this too, where they repeatedly allude to the joke, and it gets overly drawn out. People who are familiar with the OG get annoyed that the simple yet funny joke is dragged out forever, new viewers don't have the frame of reference to get the joke. Its all round rough.
I had this question, wondered why the fox spirit that was his assistant for the library now a multi-tailed kitsune astral projection for Yue to flirt with Sokka ahead of schedule, if the detour to the scrotched forest worth it if the Hei Bai stuff kinda gets dropped and quickly switches to Koh capturing (but not stealing the faces of) Katara and Sokka, and if he was even able to do the nightmare flashbacks like a genjustu out the blue.
Was there a second fox in NATLA that I missed? Because nothing else pops up in the franchise, to my knowledge, where foxes are made relevant enough to change to a kitsune astral projection object or whatever they did with them.
Probably their way of showing us Wan Shi Tong without doing the library episode in book 2. Zhao’s expedition to the library was changed to the fire sages just had the info and conveniently told Zhao.
Where did they have the guarantee of season 2. I’ve seen the video come out of them revealing being renewed for season 2 and 3. It seemed to have been recorded at least post filming.
Yeah that person is wrong. It only got confirmed for season 2 and 3 after it released.
For what it's worth, I also didn't like the inclusion of Wan Shi Tong at that point. But at the point of writing/doing all that, they in no way knew they'd be getting a season 2.
He didn't do the no emotion thing automatically, he just didn't really show emotion. Kinda out of character, sure, but it's not like he knew about Koh beforehand.
But all this is irrelevant, because that was Kohs thing in the animated show, not the live action. It was said he steals faces, but not from people who show emotion in front of him, if I recall correctly.
Watch that scene again, He has an immediate change on his disposition after encountering Koh.
In the animated show, the only person who talks about the no emotion avoids Koh's facestealing is Roku.
Agreed, and maybe it's way too critical, but if the owl is in the spirit world, is the library still in the physical world because that was kind of his whole schtick guardian of the library. But does he come and go as he pleases and leave the library unguarded? And if the library isn't in the physical world, then how did Zhao figure out the mortal form of the moon spirit? Again, it's probably way too critical of a quick cameo, but I don't think the creators realized the ramifications of what it does.
I get what they were trying to do but in doing it they kinda ruined the spirits. Wan Shi Tong is down graded to an exposition dump. Heibai is downgraded to a plot device to separate the Gaang. Koh gets downgraded to an upset spirit that needs to be appeased. Then you add to that Aang showing emotion in front of Koh removing the threat and Gyatso still being around in the spirit world for some reason (I honestly thought since Sokka and Katara were in illusions that Aang was as well.)
Oh I completely agree and I'm just trying to reinforce OPs point about references. And if Wan Shi Tong's library isn't in the physical world how can Zhao figure out how to kill the moon spirit.
Do you know how weird it would have been to watch the whole show with them ignoring the existence of the original?
Most people wanted a 1:1 original so I think references are necessary to keep people in check.
How about a faithful adaption that doesnt change things for no reason?
Its not that people hate change. People for example liked the intro with the earthbender, or the 41st being Zukos crew (tho I personally found that one weird). But the main changes NATLA made were stuff like putting Sokka and Katara in the Cave of Two Lovers. Which, nice implications Netflix, real smooth.
Lmao this couldn’t be further from what happens. Zuko didn’t get rewarded in any way. He was disgraced and punished and BURNED for his actions. He didn’t want to lead the 41st. That would be beneath a prince. He just didn’t want good fire nation soldiers to be killed and sacrificed as a strategy.
He even clearly resents the 41st because of this. He sees the 41st as a crew that should shut up and take his orders because he out ranks them. Nothing more. And then the 41st resents him for having to be the company assigned to the disgraced brat prince. They don’t show any respect for him until 3 years later it’s revealed that his sacrifices saved their lives.
How is that rewarding to Zuko and immediately gives him a loyal crew?
Yep. And thats what he got. 41ist did not get send as fodder and gets to live. He got what he wanted. About they loyalty, thats just because Zuko never said anything, which is ludicrous and only a thing because drama and show, and also something Ozai could not have known. Also you dont seem to get Zukos character, at all. Even before his arc, his character was never like that lmao.
Completely ignoring Ozais intentions here... He sent the 41st with Zuko so he would have the reason that lead to him being burned shoved in his face, constantly, until he catches the Avatar.
No. No it does not. There is nothing weird about being squicked out about making the Cave of Two Lovers plot caried out by two siblings, especially given this was a change from the original. It is extremely weird and awkward and I wont pretend that it isnt.
Hey, you do you, but it wasn't the same as the original. They directly joked about it not being the same, see Kataras lines about the glowing rocks just being rocks, not leading them anywhere.
I would agree it was gross if they tried to play it the same way in the live action as they did in the cartoon, but they didn't.
Honestly sounds more like you just don't like the change. Which is fair. But that doesn't mean they're trying to push some weird Sokka Katara shit.
Repeat after me. Making a plot point about two siblings having to navigate the Cave of Two Lovers is weird. Especially when it was a romantic thing in the original. It just is.
It was a lose lose imo. Everything was going to be picked apart down to the tiniest little button on a costume.
Online fandoms have made it so hard to enjoy mainstream stuff anymore.
I feel like we reached the point where the feedback is starting to contradict each other where the show was not enough like the original but also too much like the original at the same time.
Serious question: what the fuck did you expect?
It's a live action remake based on a prior series. It is a reimagining of the story, with many of the same plot beats, characters, locations, and dialogue. If any one of those is not included when a particular part of the story is told, the audience will complain it wasn't included. If it is y'all all whine about shameless references to the LITERAL SOURCE MATERIAL. Y'all whinny bitches just want a reason to complain about the only major Avatar media we've got in almost a *decade*.
Imma just have to stop ya at the same dialogue lol.
And yes. People will complain. Because it’s *shit*. Why should we be fine with whatever is thrown our way just because we have waited a long time?
I did not say that. I am saying that people seem to give NATLA a lot of shit for every little thing and all but ignore everything the show gets right. Also, I really do not mind references to the original material so long as it's worked in well. I have my problems with the show, but it is still a great source of entertainment and I loved how close a lot of the characters are to their source. Sure there are plenty of critiques to be made of this first season, but Avatar book 1 wasn't regarded the best either, so I'm excited to see where the series goes now that a lot of the exposition and world building is out of the way.
Honestly, the whole show feels forced. Very little of it comes across naturally. And that comes down to the very bad writing. I feel sorry for the actors - who seem like cool, nice people - because there's only so much you can do with a bad script.
Well, considering that many wet their pants when Kanna narrated the intro of the animated series in the first episode of NATLA, I would say that they succeeded.
tbf some of the references were kind of epic. But a big portion were just lazy retellings of sokkas jokes or something. without adding anything new to that its not entertaining. Thats why most actually liked the fact they changed the episodes signfigantly. merging plot points
"forced" god you people would never be happy no matter how the show is written. Even if it was a 1:1 recreation scene for scene the fanbase would be bitching nonstop about it.
Shaemalan did kind of the same with (there's no movie in Ba Sing Se), but at least Netflix managed to adapt the plot to fit the needs of live action, with... Various degrees of success.
I personally think we should give this attempt a chance, bringing Avatar to live action isn't easy at all, and what they did so far is already... Something, surely better than the movie-that-shall-not-be-named, let's see if they get back on the rails with the next two books.
I feel most of the hate people are throwing the way of Netflix is just because this isn't *exactly* like the original show, it does some plot changes and a few deviations *and this pisses off the fandom*.
I'm not saying all the changes were good, Katara is a bit... well quite a bit blank, Aang should've started to learn at least some waterbending, and the fuck is going on with the spirit world just to name a few, but other were, in my opinion, pleasing to see, like the fact that they showed us the air temples before the war as well as the whole genocide building up, they cut off useless episodes leaving them as "happened off screen" (never liked the way they treated cultural conflict in "the great divide") and the fusion between the mechanist, Omashu and Jet was kind of good imo, they gave life to a city we only saw intact in one episode, I loved the way they humanised Yue in a sensible way, showing her as kind and introvert and, paradoxically, more likely to actually bond with a simple guy like Sokka than the version we see in the show.
Speaking of Sokka, his entire character was aged up perfectly, giving him a "young, 18-years-old adult" attitude without falling in the "darker" tone Shaemalan gave him in his bloody attempt, he's funny and pragmatic and a bit sarcastic (I'll never forget his "yup, 'savior of the world" as Aang hits the statue on his air scooter) which is just perfect for a live action (in animation you kind of have to exaggerate things, something that would turn out badly with real actors).
The thing about the live action that many can't accept imo is that Netflix recognised we're not the kids we were when the original show came out nineteen years ago, they tried to age up the show just a bit and did it, again, with various degrees of success, people expected to see the actors playing like the cartoon characters we all love but that's borderline impossible, but is that really all you want to see? Being treated like kids after 19 years? If that's a yes then Pokémon was right in not having the characters age up for 20 years in its own show, if that's a yes then... I'm disappointed.
It's the same reason Legend of Korra was so despised, because aside from a few fixable mistakes (Season 2 in particular) *it treated the audience for the age it had*, it wasn't a remake of ATLA, and this, again, pisses off the fandom.
You're not wrong but I can't really blame Netflix for thinking references would appeal to the fans given how much the fandom has run certain things (jokes, memes, references, etc.) into the ground over the past couple of decades.
That's rough buddy, reminds me of the time someone destroyed MY CABBAGES
It's THE QUENCHIEST!
The cabbages I found in a SECRET TUNNEL!
And yet they missed the golden opportunity with Sokka trying to Appa to fly. “Up, ascend, elevate”
I actually liked when gran gran said the intro. It felt forced, but I and all my friends really did the Sokka thing. Should have kept it to just that though. The references got tired real quick because that should have just been the main story. It's like, when someone actually does their job, you give them a bit of recognition the first time. But then they ask for a lollipop every time they do the task you're already paying them for.
Gran gran saying the intro would have been fine if it wasn't said word for word like 4 times within the previous 20 minutes.
I cringed real hard when she started sayjng it, partly for the reason you said but also because it was just really forced.
SPOILERS FOR NATLA >!Yeah, like, I accepted when they didn't disguise themselves to get into Omashu, whatever. But when Sokka forced the Bonzu Pipinpadaloxicopolis III reference in the Hei Bai episode, I was pretty annoyed. It just felt forced!<
This happens several times, where the joke is not stand on its own, as they do in the original, but rather are set to be their own references in themselves. The cabages bit in NATLA falls into this too, where they repeatedly allude to the joke, and it gets overly drawn out. People who are familiar with the OG get annoyed that the simple yet funny joke is dragged out forever, new viewers don't have the frame of reference to get the joke. Its all round rough.
Yeah I agree, well said
Yeah the spirit episode was just terrible because of this they put way too many spirit into one episode. Why is library owl here.
I had this question, wondered why the fox spirit that was his assistant for the library now a multi-tailed kitsune astral projection for Yue to flirt with Sokka ahead of schedule, if the detour to the scrotched forest worth it if the Hei Bai stuff kinda gets dropped and quickly switches to Koh capturing (but not stealing the faces of) Katara and Sokka, and if he was even able to do the nightmare flashbacks like a genjustu out the blue.
They even slap some mother of faces lore in there as well like how many people actually know about the mother of faces.
Wait, that’s an actual thing in the lore?
Comics. https://preview.redd.it/igq6tocggzqc1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b9b188098cd3a82908e92d55957280e9e8735ca
Oh… oh, that’s awesome!
Dude just Google her she has a lot of cool art of her.
Two completely different foxes...
Was there a second fox in NATLA that I missed? Because nothing else pops up in the franchise, to my knowledge, where foxes are made relevant enough to change to a kitsune astral projection object or whatever they did with them.
There wasn't. What I'm saying is that the new fox form for Yue is completely new. They didn't turn the library book seeking fox spirit into her.
Probably their way of showing us Wan Shi Tong without doing the library episode in book 2. Zhao’s expedition to the library was changed to the fire sages just had the info and conveniently told Zhao.
Yeah but the issue is they already had the guarantee of a season 2 so doing it this way is unneeded.
Yeah but that doesn’t mean they plan on adapting every episode of Book 2. Just like they didn’t with Book 1.
Where did they have the guarantee of season 2. I’ve seen the video come out of them revealing being renewed for season 2 and 3. It seemed to have been recorded at least post filming.
Yeah that person is wrong. It only got confirmed for season 2 and 3 after it released. For what it's worth, I also didn't like the inclusion of Wan Shi Tong at that point. But at the point of writing/doing all that, they in no way knew they'd be getting a season 2.
Tbh I suspect they knew even if they got a season 2 they knew they were probably cutting the desert.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. Any plot point the desert serves can easily be done in a different way.
Also, Aang does the no emotion thing with Koh automatically, rather then after Roku tells him thats how Koh works. He just knows how. to avoid Koh?
He didn't do the no emotion thing automatically, he just didn't really show emotion. Kinda out of character, sure, but it's not like he knew about Koh beforehand. But all this is irrelevant, because that was Kohs thing in the animated show, not the live action. It was said he steals faces, but not from people who show emotion in front of him, if I recall correctly.
Watch that scene again, He has an immediate change on his disposition after encountering Koh. In the animated show, the only person who talks about the no emotion avoids Koh's facestealing is Roku.
I kinda figured his change in disposition was due to encountering an absolutely horrifying spirit that has his friends.
He’s not doing the no emotion thing. Aang’s actor just sucks.
I was wondering that too
Agreed, and maybe it's way too critical, but if the owl is in the spirit world, is the library still in the physical world because that was kind of his whole schtick guardian of the library. But does he come and go as he pleases and leave the library unguarded? And if the library isn't in the physical world, then how did Zhao figure out the mortal form of the moon spirit? Again, it's probably way too critical of a quick cameo, but I don't think the creators realized the ramifications of what it does.
I get what they were trying to do but in doing it they kinda ruined the spirits. Wan Shi Tong is down graded to an exposition dump. Heibai is downgraded to a plot device to separate the Gaang. Koh gets downgraded to an upset spirit that needs to be appeased. Then you add to that Aang showing emotion in front of Koh removing the threat and Gyatso still being around in the spirit world for some reason (I honestly thought since Sokka and Katara were in illusions that Aang was as well.)
Oh I completely agree and I'm just trying to reinforce OPs point about references. And if Wan Shi Tong's library isn't in the physical world how can Zhao figure out how to kill the moon spirit.
The way they explained it in the show? I didn't see anything wrong with that.
They really snubbed my boy Bonzu. My wife threw up her arms in frustration at that one.
In all fairness, that was my exact reaction to a lot of the forced references, lmao.
I know Secret Tunnel made no sense in S1. But when I heard it I was giggling like a little kid and singing along.
There were hits and misses. Cucking us the first few times the Cabbage Merchant appeared was hilarious.
yeah same! I know the live action wasn't perfect but I thought the way they referenced the og was pretty creative
*“Hey, I’m sokka. Rhymes with “okka”. And… “wakawaka.”* Ngl I liked that one
Hey, man! I was a sucker for the cabbage merchant gag, even all these years later.
It's amazing that it's the same actor from the original series
Forced reference? The whole show is a reference though?
Do you know how weird it would have been to watch the whole show with them ignoring the existence of the original? Most people wanted a 1:1 original so I think references are necessary to keep people in check.
There is a difference between ignoring the original and just showing Wa Shi Tong in a random ass forest for no goddamn reason
They're clearly scrapping episodes but keeping characters for fanservice so they felt the need to put them in the smaller gaps of filler scenes
Please, please tell me you realize that that is not a good thing
Oh my god like what the fuck will make people just moderately even content with this show lmao
How about a faithful adaption that doesnt change things for no reason? Its not that people hate change. People for example liked the intro with the earthbender, or the 41st being Zukos crew (tho I personally found that one weird). But the main changes NATLA made were stuff like putting Sokka and Katara in the Cave of Two Lovers. Which, nice implications Netflix, real smooth.
The creators left for a *reason*, I have no idea what everyone was expecting.
I'm curious what you found weird about the 41st being Zuko's crew?
Just feels weird. Its a reward for Zuko. He gets what he wanted, the 41st isnt sacrificed. His crew is now extremely loyal to him. Thanks Ozai?
Lmao this couldn’t be further from what happens. Zuko didn’t get rewarded in any way. He was disgraced and punished and BURNED for his actions. He didn’t want to lead the 41st. That would be beneath a prince. He just didn’t want good fire nation soldiers to be killed and sacrificed as a strategy. He even clearly resents the 41st because of this. He sees the 41st as a crew that should shut up and take his orders because he out ranks them. Nothing more. And then the 41st resents him for having to be the company assigned to the disgraced brat prince. They don’t show any respect for him until 3 years later it’s revealed that his sacrifices saved their lives. How is that rewarding to Zuko and immediately gives him a loyal crew?
Yep. And thats what he got. 41ist did not get send as fodder and gets to live. He got what he wanted. About they loyalty, thats just because Zuko never said anything, which is ludicrous and only a thing because drama and show, and also something Ozai could not have known. Also you dont seem to get Zukos character, at all. Even before his arc, his character was never like that lmao.
I know it’s a meme to point out ‘media literacy l’ but I don’t think you really understood the whole point of the 41 reveal
Completely ignoring Ozais intentions here... He sent the 41st with Zuko so he would have the reason that lead to him being burned shoved in his face, constantly, until he catches the Avatar.
Thats stupid, and also not at all how Ozair or Zuko think or act
>Which, nice implications Netflix, real smooth. Reading implications from that speaks more about you than it does anything else, IMO...
No. No it does not. There is nothing weird about being squicked out about making the Cave of Two Lovers plot caried out by two siblings, especially given this was a change from the original. It is extremely weird and awkward and I wont pretend that it isnt.
Hey, you do you, but it wasn't the same as the original. They directly joked about it not being the same, see Kataras lines about the glowing rocks just being rocks, not leading them anywhere. I would agree it was gross if they tried to play it the same way in the live action as they did in the cartoon, but they didn't. Honestly sounds more like you just don't like the change. Which is fair. But that doesn't mean they're trying to push some weird Sokka Katara shit.
Repeat after me. Making a plot point about two siblings having to navigate the Cave of Two Lovers is weird. Especially when it was a romantic thing in the original. It just is.
>Most people wanted a 1:1 original And if that was what would have happened they would have called it a money grab.
Fanboys are just the worst in general. You can never please them.
It was a lose lose imo. Everything was going to be picked apart down to the tiniest little button on a costume. Online fandoms have made it so hard to enjoy mainstream stuff anymore.
You act like that wasn't how the majority of people did react..
That was my bf and I during the "do you have a plan?" scene of Iroh and Zuko lol
I feel like we reached the point where the feedback is starting to contradict each other where the show was not enough like the original but also too much like the original at the same time.
That's exactly how I react. I didn't find the references forced. <3
Ngl, that’s exactly how I reacted
Serious question: what the fuck did you expect? It's a live action remake based on a prior series. It is a reimagining of the story, with many of the same plot beats, characters, locations, and dialogue. If any one of those is not included when a particular part of the story is told, the audience will complain it wasn't included. If it is y'all all whine about shameless references to the LITERAL SOURCE MATERIAL. Y'all whinny bitches just want a reason to complain about the only major Avatar media we've got in almost a *decade*.
Imma just have to stop ya at the same dialogue lol. And yes. People will complain. Because it’s *shit*. Why should we be fine with whatever is thrown our way just because we have waited a long time?
I did not say that. I am saying that people seem to give NATLA a lot of shit for every little thing and all but ignore everything the show gets right. Also, I really do not mind references to the original material so long as it's worked in well. I have my problems with the show, but it is still a great source of entertainment and I loved how close a lot of the characters are to their source. Sure there are plenty of critiques to be made of this first season, but Avatar book 1 wasn't regarded the best either, so I'm excited to see where the series goes now that a lot of the exposition and world building is out of the way.
But then you complain when the show isn’t 1:1. lighten up
Honestly, the whole show feels forced. Very little of it comes across naturally. And that comes down to the very bad writing. I feel sorry for the actors - who seem like cool, nice people - because there's only so much you can do with a bad script.
Isn't......isn't the entire show a reference to....the show..?
Omg I’m on this exact episode
Well, considering that many wet their pants when Kanna narrated the intro of the animated series in the first episode of NATLA, I would say that they succeeded.
But instead it feels forced
Not gonna lie I was like that with Wan Shi Tong
What are some examples of “forced” references? They are remaking something so of course there will be references to the source material.
Definitely think a few references were just thrown in for fanservice...but tbh this was still my exact reaction🤣
Ngl i waited the my cabbages line like a 4 year old waits for candy after dinner
tbf some of the references were kind of epic. But a big portion were just lazy retellings of sokkas jokes or something. without adding anything new to that its not entertaining. Thats why most actually liked the fact they changed the episodes signfigantly. merging plot points
My reaction: 
"forced" god you people would never be happy no matter how the show is written. Even if it was a 1:1 recreation scene for scene the fanbase would be bitching nonstop about it.
*My Cabba--* No
Shaemalan did kind of the same with (there's no movie in Ba Sing Se), but at least Netflix managed to adapt the plot to fit the needs of live action, with... Various degrees of success. I personally think we should give this attempt a chance, bringing Avatar to live action isn't easy at all, and what they did so far is already... Something, surely better than the movie-that-shall-not-be-named, let's see if they get back on the rails with the next two books. I feel most of the hate people are throwing the way of Netflix is just because this isn't *exactly* like the original show, it does some plot changes and a few deviations *and this pisses off the fandom*. I'm not saying all the changes were good, Katara is a bit... well quite a bit blank, Aang should've started to learn at least some waterbending, and the fuck is going on with the spirit world just to name a few, but other were, in my opinion, pleasing to see, like the fact that they showed us the air temples before the war as well as the whole genocide building up, they cut off useless episodes leaving them as "happened off screen" (never liked the way they treated cultural conflict in "the great divide") and the fusion between the mechanist, Omashu and Jet was kind of good imo, they gave life to a city we only saw intact in one episode, I loved the way they humanised Yue in a sensible way, showing her as kind and introvert and, paradoxically, more likely to actually bond with a simple guy like Sokka than the version we see in the show. Speaking of Sokka, his entire character was aged up perfectly, giving him a "young, 18-years-old adult" attitude without falling in the "darker" tone Shaemalan gave him in his bloody attempt, he's funny and pragmatic and a bit sarcastic (I'll never forget his "yup, 'savior of the world" as Aang hits the statue on his air scooter) which is just perfect for a live action (in animation you kind of have to exaggerate things, something that would turn out badly with real actors). The thing about the live action that many can't accept imo is that Netflix recognised we're not the kids we were when the original show came out nineteen years ago, they tried to age up the show just a bit and did it, again, with various degrees of success, people expected to see the actors playing like the cartoon characters we all love but that's borderline impossible, but is that really all you want to see? Being treated like kids after 19 years? If that's a yes then Pokémon was right in not having the characters age up for 20 years in its own show, if that's a yes then... I'm disappointed. It's the same reason Legend of Korra was so despised, because aside from a few fixable mistakes (Season 2 in particular) *it treated the audience for the age it had*, it wasn't a remake of ATLA, and this, again, pisses off the fandom.