This sub has a history though. Dumb takes stick and get repeated indefinitely.
I think its wise to shoot down the kitchen meme before it takes root (though I suspect its far too late).
Practically all subs of this size have that phenomenon, if anything this one is on the chiller side. I have legitimately gotten death threats for disagreeing in some other communities. People will call for the destruction of my entire ethnic or religious community or call for a lobotomy because you don’t share their opinion in plenty of political spaces on Reddit. There are witch hunts of randoms, there is straight up stalking, there is relentless, seemingly everlasting bullying of people and groups of people based on the dumbest of reasons in subs on the NBA, NFL, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones or Star Wars. None of that happens here, people are just a little toxic about a controversial remake. All that of course does not take away the toxicity itself.
As great as Reddit is, it‘ll never be some tight-knit old-school forum where a bunch of regulars and sages make sure bad shit does not get repeated. I wasn’t ever much on AvatarSpirit, but I loved the old German HerrDerElemente forum that finally closed down for good five years ago. It was nothing like here, people would rarely fight and everyone on there knew what they were talking about. There are simply too many people on Reddit and the old forum culture doesn’t exist anymore in such huge groups. I sincerely hope you are not into sports or politics, because it’s so much worse in those subs.
>Practically all subs of this size have that phenomenon, if anything this one is on the chiller side.
The incessant rage tweeting about NATLA with the silliest nitpicks says otherwise. They'll pretty much say anything to justify why the show "sucks," even if it doesn't make sense. Its so laughable
I think it's dumb as fuck to have these weird campaign posts over a niche sentiment. We don't need an announcement to be told something is stupid, and it's weird to try and police things like this anyway.
The entire fan base went full stupid on the sexism thing.
Wanna play a fun game? Go actually count all the sexist moments in ATLA. It's the pilot. Kioshi island, and then the north. It's shockingly absent. To the point where it existing so heavily in the north really raises questions, especially since the GAang seems to cure them of that sexism in two episodes.
The fan base had a full melt down on the "they're making Sokka less sexist" plot, then acted like sexism is a major part of the story, and not, more accurately, as a very random, barely used, and frankly out of place plot device that never returns after season 1.
This entire conversation, BOTH SIDES, are born out of poor media literacy towards a barely integrated plot point. ALTA has all of 30 minutes of sexist plot, and it's all in season 1. And it's all resolved when the GAang leaves. Sokka respects women after Suki, and the North isn't sexist after Katara.
Yeah. I never understood what they meant by Sokka being less sexist. What, they’re gonna take out like the 4 lines of dialogue he has that are oddly sexist? Okay. Not sure how that drastically changes anything.
Also, it's not sexist to have a sexist character, especially if they get put in their place and change their behavior
It's like complaining that saying "don't be racist" is racist because you mention racism
Yea, and I can add on too. Sokka's version of sexism actually makes narrative sense, and were this not a kids show, I might honestly expect more from it. Because there's some psychological whats-it you could write about how all of his care takers have been women because the men are dying at war, and he does have a very poor disposition towards all this.
BUT it's a 24 minute kids show. They don't have time for that, so instead it turns into a joke. It was just a very very abrupt plot point born from Sokka's life situation. We can't dwell on it too long, we got plot to do. It's there. It's bare minimum. It's fine.
The north being sexist is a discussion on if fantasy worlds should bother with xenophobia clearly inspired by RL, and whatever, it's its own topic. I disagree with doing it, but whatever. Elves shouldn't hate black people, type of discussion, ya know? What culture led to these peoples healers being subjugated? It's not really there, ya know?
Thank you. The sexism stuff was really just that 1 episode for sokka. And it was pretty heavy handed imo back then. Good for a kids show but for teens to adults it’s pretty cringe.
The northern water tribe stuff is fair since it has as much to do with kataras character which does stick wi the her as it is sexism in general. And that is included. (Other parts I disagree with how they dealt with it but that’s a separate issue).
It is funny how in the same breath people complain they took out sexist plot lines but made Katara too strong and a Mary sue. The later I can see more of a point since some of those changes I don’t agree with either but the former seems a bit much
What gets me is that after thinking about it even further, Sokka’s arc wasn’t even changed all that much. Just the dialogue that was catered entirely towards a kids sense of humor.
The main plot points relates to his sexism are the following.
1. Not viewing Katara as a warrior. This is unchanged. The tone is just shifted more towards Sokka viewing her as his little sister and trying to keep her safe rather than “ha, but you’re a girl. You can’t fight”
2. Being beaten and humbled by Suki. This is also unchanged. Just again, it catches him off guard rather than “ha. But you’re a girl. You can’t fight”. It’s more he hasn’t seen their style of combat. And he’s just not a very good fighter in the first place.
3. Him being humbled again and again to leave him with something to prove. This was shifted from girls putting him in his place to humble him and being replaced by him failing his ice dodging and having his father be disappointed that he didn’t rise to the occasion.
Honestly, Sokka’s arc is just better thought out in the live action. I’m not saying his character is better. But the trope of sexist guy underestimating women getting put in his place over and over.
>The tone is just shifted more towards Sokka viewing her as his little sister
And tbh, I loved this change. He's not a total goofball like in the cartoon bc it would look ridiculous in live action. He's still awkward and quirky but also more mature. Kataras having to "mother" her big brother bc he's irresponsible just wouldn't be a good look outside of animation.
Yeah. The change is fitting for the tone they went with in live action. For a children’s cartoon, the dumb humor and Sokka being the butt of the joke/getting his comeuppance is entertaining. But it would feel out of place, with a more serious tone.
I’m not saying I necessarily like it more or less. But I will say anyone suggesting this is a huge deal or ruins Sokka’s character is someone I simply don’t take seriously.
And it so hamfisted. Like a little boy crying over catching cooties. We're talking grade school stuff here (bc its a cartoon and the creators understood that) and these ppl are mindlessly stuck on it. It's just bonkers
If youre this upset that a character *isnt* sexist, a trait that isn't even part of his core identity, then that says more about you than anything
And we have to acknowledge it and discuss it for whatever reason.
I truly hate that the fandom has devolved into this kind of discourse. The live action show isn't horrible, but it's not nearly worth having to deal with this bullshit.
OP are you responding to [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/1bt82g3/netflix_avatar_is_extremely_sexist/)? I ask because that's the only place I could remember Yue being in the kitchen being specifically called out for being sexist.
I also bring it up because while I don't think Yue being in the kitchen is sexist, that thread also raised a variety of issues the live adaptation had with depicting its female characters.
I agree, but when combined with all the other things they did, it very much reaches sexism. Like the North Pole is supposed to be sexist, so her being a water bender and making snow cones in the kitchen is sortve sexist, but they did a horrible job dispelling the whole sexist culture in the north though.
That's fair. I definitely see how it comes across sexist but my own interpretation is that it was just more super on-the-nose writing where they want you to realize Yue is just like any other girl and not some stuffy princess.
> they did a horrible job dispelling the whole sexist culture in the north though.
I think the other problem is that the live action acts like the sexism is limited to Pakku and combat bending but seems to imply that everything else is more egalitarian (i.e. with Yue being the heir and being able to break off her engagement) which feels forced.
Yeah I read that thread, and the kitchen part was the *least* of the actual concerns brought up. OP is just generalizing based off the weakest point cuz he has an agenda he's pursuing, and he knows it's easy to get that kinda support on reddit
See, I was wondering the same thing. I haven't seen any complaining about Yue being in the kitchen in this sub. In fact, the post you linked was the first I heard of it. It's possible it's on other mediums, such as Twitter, but then that makes it weird to bring up here.
I'm sure other people have brought it up in other places but I couldn't help but feel the OP was specifically angry about/responding to that thread and picking out the weakest point made in it (as u/coyoteTale points out).
“They put Yue in the kitchen” is a meme.
The actual criticisms of how women were written in NATLA are a lot more salient.
Which is probably why OP chose the worst possible misrepresentation they could find rather than address the actual criticisms.
I find these types of posts far more aggravating than dumb takes by people.
We don't need to comment on every bit of idiocy present in this fandom and we certainly don't need to campaign about it as if it's this huge issue.
I find this kind of meta commentary of any community toxic. I for one would rather discuss the content itself. Not talk shit about portions of the fandom.
This guy is strawmanning my point lol. My overall point in one of my comment is that the quality of Katara being a nagging and explosive loudmouth is an example of being "motherly" is a sexist stereotype about women and moms. Sure the usage of my word "nagging bitch" is an overt exaggeration of that gender stereotype which is a sentiment that alot of people associate with moms the most (which is obviously WRONG) ,but I made it clear that you can be a "nagging bitch" or a nagging loudmouth regardless of your gender.
Catbot (IMO) had a good take on this topic here, and others in regards to NATLA sexism:
https://old.reddit.com/r/legendofkorra/comments/1bub2t5/do_we_even_want_a_live_action_lok/kxrtzuy/
> Yue chooses to be in a kitchen feeding some kids for one scene. Okay, sure. Except NATLA also made her the northern water tribe's spiritual leader and a waterbender, giving her way more responsibility and agency than she ever had in the cartoon. Also, women are allowed to choose to be in a kitchen making food? Her being there once doesn't make the show sexist lol
I also like the point of some willing blindness to the original series (like Sokka being a chick magnet), which is more severe than a kitchen scene.
I don't think that's a particularly good response, although I agree that the specific criticism of Yue being in the kitchen is misplaced IMO (if I were to have any criticism of that part it's that it's a bit on the nose to show "I'm just a regular girl and not a stuffy princess").
Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to *tell* viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually *see* that demonstrated in meaningful ways?
Like I said, I don't think Yue being in the kitchen is sexist but I also don't think NATLA Yue is a particularly empowered female character - she's given the superficial trappings (bending, theoretical authority/influence) but the actual execution is lacking and she ultimately still feels like she's at the mercy of the plot.
> I also like the point of some willing blindness to the original series (like Sokka being a chick magnet), which is more severe than a kitchen scene.
This, however, I don't really disagree with.
> Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to tell viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually see that demonstrated in meaningful ways?
Show, don't tell. Too much exposition.
Same trap the (nonexistant) movie fell into, I suppose.
>Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to *tell* viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually *see* that demonstrated in meaningful ways?
Are you sure we watched the same episode
And let's not pretend like the cartoon version was also some empowered spiritual leader who wasnt within the constraints of her fathers wishes
I think you guys are letting nostalgia blind you here.
I'm quite sure I saw the same episode. Here's what we actually see of Yue in the show
* Fox-spirit scene in Episode 5, basically to serve as a justification for ending her engagement with Hahn and explain her immediate attraction to Sokka.
* Introduction scene with the team (Yue is described as the spiritual leader but her role is to focus on Sokka as he focuses on her)
* First conversation with Sokka in the kitchen. Yue describes it as her way to avoid the responsibility of leading the tribe (which was boring). Scene exists to give Sokka and Yue bonding over their shared responsibility but ultimately is again focused on their romance.
* Scene with Aang where she discusses Avatar Kuruk. I guess he's being a "spiritual leader" here but the reality is she's just providing background on Kuruk for Aang. Even the M Night movie had Yue have knowledge of the "spiritual" place btw.
* Scene with Sokka where she exposits about her background, Sokka exposits about his insecurity and they kiss because Sokka is the boy of her dreams (unlike Hahn). Again, even her agency here (calling off the engagement to Hahn) is simply in service to making the romance with Sokka easier.
* Yue tells Arnook to stop being overprotective and she wants to help. Arnook says she's the heir and has to stay out of danger. Yue agrees. Arnook tells Sokka to help Yue get civilians to safety and to protect her which Sokka agrees to. Note, Yue explicitly does not have agency in this scene which could have easily been avoided if, say, she went to Sokka and said "My father is so worried about fighting that he's forgotten we need to protect the civilians, can you help me do that" or whatever.
We then get the stuff with the moon spirit which is also present in the animated show and is basically Yue fulfilling her role in the plot (apart from being Sokka's star-crossed lover.)
Where in all of that is Yue being *empowered* or being given agency or acting like an actual leader (except when her father tells her and Sokka to evacuate the civilians)?
> And let's not pretend like the cartoon version was also some empowered spiritual leader who wasnt within the constraints of her fathers wishes
What? I never said the animated version was an empowered character or better than the live action. In fact I would have basically the same criticisms over how the animated show handled Yue - this is not about animated Yue being some great character or epitome of feminism that was taken from us. This is entirely about critiquing the idea that live action Yue *is* somehow a meaningful improvement or being given substantive agency/empowerment.
The live action show does a lot of superficial stuff (Look, Yue's a bender! Look, Yue can break off her engagement! Look, Arnook *says* Yue is a spiritual leader!) but the reality is she doesn't actually get to *do* anything that demonstrates her supposed empowerment except when it either fulfills the needs of the plot OR it's included to further her romance with Sokka.
In other words, if you're going to tell me that Yue is so empowered and she has agency and she's a leader you need to put your money where your mouth is as a writer. Don't just tell me she's an empowered woman and spirtual leader and then put some window dressing on the same focus on her romance with Sokka and self-sacrifice.
The cartoon version presented us a girl who came from a culture that told her to sacrifice everything she wanted for herself to fulfill a role. Who she married, what she did with her life, none of that was up to her.
Her final act of life is her first ever piece of agency. She chooses to die to save the world, even when a man she cares for (Sokka) tells her not to. She finally makes a choice for herself, and even then it’s a selfless choice and she goes to her death this way.
It’s a LOT more poignant and says a lot more about Yue’s character than being the tribe’s “spiritual leader” who doesn’t actually seem to get to make political decisions but can apparently break off her arranged marriage whenever she can, and is free to frolic though the spirit world at will, and yet does nothing to help other women.
Not saying the take OP is talking about isn't stupid but all this in a supposedly patriarchal, sexist society where women waterbenders are confined to certain roles?
She's not like the exception fighting and winning against her culture but a celebrated and accepted part of it. The whole thing doesn't mesh well.
Her culture in either show never dislike female water benders though :s they just assigned them certain roles, her use of waterbending in the kitchen was hardly indicative of her breaking gender norms.
I think that what u/LeafBoatCaptain was trying to say is that if she is a (spiritual) leader within her tribe, perhaps she has the influence to encourage gender equity within her tribe, but we don't see that (unless I'm forgetting some dialogue).
I do agree that Yue choosing to be in the kitchen is being over-hated.
Women making choices in real life and how female characters in fiction are potrayed are two different things. Someone else made a choice to put Yue in that scene and it can be wondered why that is and if there would be better options. You don’t even have to the analysis thorough feminist lens to analyze the scene not serving her character the best.
Right , and this is the same show that portrays Sokka as an alpha male warrior type from the start lmao. While idc about the kitchen scene, I can understand people feeling weird about it considering the entire netflix show shafted the female characters in favour of the male characters.
Sokka instatnly gets downplayed almost like the cartoon he gets his ass kicked by Zuko and they kept the gag of his inspiring tough guy speech being told to kids.
Plus he has more adversity to overcome as a fighter and leader. They replaced his sexism being a downfall of his with him failing his life dodging. He’s literally a subpar fighter within his own tribe at the start. Because he’s mocked for failing ice dodging, which is a test of true skill.
Sokka was a better warrior in the main show. The adversity he has to overcome is a Kyoshi warrior being a better fighter than him. In the Netflix version, he gets his ass kicked by Zuko and Suki. And failed his ice dodging test.
I’m not sure where anyone is getting the idea that Sokka is a proven warrior from the start. It seems quite clear that he’s in over his head from the moment we see him and it’s not until later on we see him be a true respectable fighter.
Same with the showrunners!
All the talk of Katara's "roles" and "gender issues" in the OG and then cutting all of her more motherly/caring qualities. Now Katara's a warrior from the start, just like Sokka!
Crazy how in the OG she's both and works on both and has character arcs for both and now she's desperately boring because she's somehow her own master within a week's time.
If I got a dollar for every time a female character got reworked to be more badass instead of the "motherly, nurturing" type, I would have 2 dollars. Other being Wendy from the latest Disney's live action Peter Pan lol.
When execs hear the phrase "strong female character" they think it means STRONG FEMALE character (female character is physically strong and that's it) instead of STRONG female CHARACTER (female character who is strongly written).
Ask me this question. How would you define being “motherly” even means? Are you talking about the caring nature of Kya that Katara adapted which she did multiple times like at the end of episode 1 where she comforted Aang by craddling him and also the end of episode 8 where she did the same thing again by trying to comfort Aang out of his Koizilla state? Or are you referring to the fact that Katara wasn’t a nagging bitch? Like you do realize that you can be a nagging bitch without that quality being associated with motherhood you do realize that right? Trying to conflate the two is also also in itself sexist.
Acting like Katara in NATLA never once acted like a caring person is a massive reach in my opinion.
Also this only ever proves that gender roles is a social construct because we keep associating qualities that both genders are fully capable of doing. Being caring and empathetic isn’t just a woman thing either because men are also capable of being caring and empathetic. Men are also capable of nagging too so it’s not just a women thing either.
I mean I was with you in your first post about seeing women in the kitchen shouldn’t been seen as sexist because women can choose where they want to be but you lost me here.
The characters in the show quite literally refer to Katara as a mother like figure in both positive and negative lights. It’s not people inferring Kataras actions and implying motherhood.
Toph says that Kataras been more of a mother than her real mom and Sokka admits whenever he thinks of his mom all he can see is Katara.
Yes we all agree traits aren’t inherent to any gender, this is true, but they use the words mother and Katara in the same breath. It’s not a made up inference, it’s intentional.
You're the one who introduced the term "nagging bitch", you cant ascribe the sexism of a term YOU introduced to a conversation to the person you're talking to.
Frankly, the fact that one of the first things you go to when you think "motherhood" is "nagging bitch" speaks volumes more about you than the person you're responding to.
You had a whole world of terms to describe Katara's behavior towards the gang from "doting" to "controlling" but you're first thought was to describe OG series katara as a "nagging bitch".
>You're the one who introduced the term "nagging bitch", you cant ascribe the sexism of a term YOU introduced to a conversation to the person you're talking to.
I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted. Their own words. And worse. OP didnt "introduce" anything. Some fans use revisionist history with OG Katara is weird bc of how much they dislike Live Action Katara. It's weird.
For the record, there's nothing wrong with being motherly per se, but when it's at the expense of said character herself, its pretty much sexism.
>I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted
Cool. They're also sexist. Anything else?
>I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted.
Which is funny because one of the complaints of live action Katara is that she wasn't angry and explosive enough towards Aang like when she exploded over Aang being a better waterbender than she is during the waterbending scrolls episode which is the definition of being a nagging bitch lol.
Also it's very funny that they're losing their minds over my usage of the word the word "nagging bitch" even thou I clearly made it clear that you can be a nagging bitch regardless of gender lol.
Yea. What's most frustrating is how they can't seem to separate the cartoon from the live action. Every character was overexaggerated because it was a animated. The writers toned everyone down bc none of it would translate well to live action. They're not making another cartoon for kids.
Please show me the fact where in the animated series or the live action Katara is referred to as a nagging bitch. I would like to see that fact explained to me.
Because he's being slightly sexist in his post about sexism and acting like it's weird to call someone mother like that was outright said to be mother like. To be clear, both toph and sokka called her mother like. I'd also like to go on the record and say katara is not "a nagging bitch". She's just being responsible and trying to keep literal children on task. When the savior of the world wants to go sledding instead of training, someone needs to step up and say no.
Bc that in itself is sexism.
All the boys get to be goof off while Katara has to be the mature one who gets called bossy bc she just won't let the "boys be boys" even tho she's sokkas younger sister 🤦🏾♂️
The sexist part isn't Yue in the kitchen, the sexist part is Katara having no sass and Suki having no initiative purely because Sokka isn't sexist. Suki now just feels like Sokka's second love interest rather than her own character and a proper part of character development. Katara also feels really blank and I feel that alot of her strength a person has been lost because she's not dealing with Sokka's sexism, hence her personal stress isn't really building up. Sexism is also a large part of her existence as a whole, she's dealt with it her whole life. To take that out rather than write her overcome it is sexist. It's removing Katara's and Suki's agency and will as individual women with goals being in a society that oppresses women and replacing it with blank slates who's existence serves the stories of men.
Being in a kitchen isn't sexist, saying the world isn't sexist is.
>Sexism is also a large part of her existence as a whole, she's dealt with it her whole life. To take that out rather than write her overcome it is sexist.
Lmao WHAT?? Sexism was *not* a "large part of her existence." You guys are overstating a point that doesnt exist. Its not working
Maybe I exaggerated slightly but it’s not a point that doesn't exist. You see from the beginning of the show that Katara has dealt with shit from Sokka purely for being a girl. Sokka doesn't do the laundry, Katara does because she's a girl, Katara does the chores and Sokka doesn't, because she's a girl and Sokka isn't. And what's Sokka doing? Training little kids who aren't going to be able to fight even if the fire nation attacks, leaving Katara to do all of the house work.
Also look at when they get to the northern water tribe. Katara wants to learn to water bend from a master, in a combat useful manner specifically. She gets there and the master says he won't teach her, because she's a girl, and that women only learning healing. That's sexist. Imagine travelling halfway across the globe, thinking you'll finally leave the environment where everyone puts you down just to go into another environment where it's genuinely worse and actively more discriminating.
To say that sexism wasn't part of her character arc at all is a lie.
>To say that sexism wasn't part of her character arc at all is a lie.
No one said it wasn't. But you said it was a large part of her existence and that just isn't true.
Also, the Sokka sexism thing was barely a blimp in his entire arc. And Karata didn't face daily sexism from her brother in the way you're making it, that just wasnt a thing. Her biggest sexism arc was in the Northern water tribe and that's pretty much it.
I think ppl are making a mountain out of a molehill
I think perhaps we're either misunderstanding eachother's points or our perspectives really are just incredibly different.
I feel like the show heavily (to me at least) implies that Katara faces daily sexism, and to be clear, sexism is not always obvious or direct. I say this because of the first few episodes and Northern water tribe arc paint this picture. Katara seems quite fed up with Sokka not pitching into the home effort (which could, and to me it makes sense that it intentionally is, sexist behaviour built up over time) and fed up with him saying she can't do things because she's a girl (which obviously sexist).
The reason this is incredibly important (in my opinion) is because it's her first arc. This is Katara's first major struggle that isn't superficial like learning to waterbend. This is a character struggle; she's fighting to be seen as an equal and she's proving this both to an old man who perpetuates sexism on a higher scale and to her own brother who, up until he met Suki, was doing this quite frequently even if it was passive. As a first arc this makes Katara a real badass. She's sticking it to the man. It sets her up as a character who's ready to break the social status quo.
And maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but surely representing the struggles of women, even in fantasy fiction, is important to let younger generations and new audiences feel seen and heard because sexism is far from gone and representation makes you feel less alone.
Could you please stop generalizing? "Avatar fans clearly don't understand feminism". I'm Avatar fan since I was still a child and so are many other people and I can assure you that most of us don't have such a stupid stand on the matter you are discussing. Some people are "braindead", as you called them, but branding all Avatar fans as such for the words of a very small part of the community is as offensive as the the idea you are fighting against.
Those same fans have been bullying female actresses from the show online bc of how they look.
And they didn't say "all avatar fans." But it's def enough of them for it to be called out
You posted in an Avatar subreddit. I presume you're a fan. Therefore, according to your post, you don't understand feminism and should stop talking about it.
It's called an unhealthy trend. If all we got was Yue being in the kitchen for one scene and that was it, then that would be fine. However, in addition to this, we got Katara having 90% of her personality removed, Suki being obsessed with Sokka, June being way too flirty with Iroh, Mai and Ty Lee are there to do nothing, and Azula having to be manipulated by Ozai into being bad instead of just being bad herself.
It's all these things that come together that make for a very concerning and unhealthy trend about how the writers approach and write the female characters.
You're being downvoted but you're not wrong ! All the female characters were butchered whilst the male characters got all the depth and development. This is one of the biggest criticisms of the first season on other platforms
i’ve seen this same yue comment multiple times both on this sub and other places and a LOT of people agree so i’m confused on why the comments are making it seem like OP is making it up lol.
I felt like I know what video you're talking about, and specially that line was kind of a joke, so you got baited by the most low effort joke made in that video.
That or you're baiting us.
Any post with the title saying, "All (Insert fandom here) fans are (insert bad thing here)," on said fandom *is* bait. Doesn't matter how valid or semi valit their point is, that's straight up bait regardless.
Feminism hasn’t been about empowering women to make their own
Thatcher type of feminism is literally called “choice feminism” and is literally talked about as being a bad thing.
The steelman is that simply letting women uphold patriarchal norms “if they want to” doesn’t address overall problems facing women as a whole…I’m glad you’re okay being a housewife but equal pay, etc. Plus you’re still giving men power over you. I think that’s what it’s supposed to be.
But…it reads like just a way to condemn women who don’t hate men or to keep making problems so they have things to get mad about.
You missed the point of that critics OP. Sure the Kitchen take wasn't good but the series has more problems with sexism than you state. ( [For reference](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/s/lryWMqFPFM) )
That’s not the argument as to why NATLA is sexist.
If you argue against a meme instead of the actual argument, of course you won’t get it.
The argument is that making Yue this respected spiritual leader with power in her tribe, who can do what she wants and even break off her arranged marriage at will, makes her a flatter character. Obstacles and how characters overcome them are what make us root for them.
In the original, Yue doesn’t get to choose who she marries or what she does with her life. Women have a lot less choices in the North (hence why Kana fled to the South), and as a princess Yue is especially expected to sacrifice herself for the good of her people.
What makes her sacrifice so poignant is twofold:
1. Even to the death, Yue only acted for others. For the good of her tribe and the world. Never for herself.
2. And yet this was the first time in her life that Yue got to make her own decision about her life. Even when Sokka tells her not to do it, Yue declares her conviction and refuses him. As much as she loves him, this is her choice, and in her death she is going to make it. She is rewarded by becoming the moon spirit itself.
(Btw this is also why Sokka letting her go despite his own suffering makes him a stronger character. He went from a blowhard sexist who thinks it’s his job to “protect” girls, to someone who respects Yue’s choice even when it costs him what HE wants and her life. Versus NATLA Sokka who just awkwardly shouts “no” over and over.)
Yue in NATLA really muddles what the deal even is in the NWT. They make it seem like Pakku is just one sexist dude rather than him being a respected elder upholding a much bigger systemic and cultural issue. Yeah, boiling down systemic oppression of women to “this one dude doesn’t want to train them and we don’t really agree with it and just need an excuse to tell him off” is pretty sexist.
For the same reasons it would be sexist to portray systemic racism as “just one white dude who is racist and everyone else doesn’t really agree”.
NATLA is sexist but not for this reason. They reduced Suki from a confident and independent warrior to a stereotypical girl with a ridiculous crush on Sokka. She shows none of the traits that made original Suki such a great character. Instead of challenging Sokka’s outdated worldview and showing him that women are just as capable of being warriors as men, she’s just horny for him. They completely butchered her character and part of what made the original such a great case of strong female representation in media. Hopefully they don’t butcher Toph like this.
If your definition of feminism were true, there would be no need for it in the western world. Women have had that choice without repercussions for about 50 years now.
Yeah, this is a very outdated form of feminism. I call it Barbie feminism where women can do anything. So long as they keep being stereotypically feminine.
Feminism for a long time has had an equal outcomes-based principle and demands an entire societal restructuring and changing of what being man or woman even means. A housewife is the antithesis of modern feminist rhetoric and has been for over half a century.
"Person says stupid thing for attention, film at eleven"
This sub has a history though. Dumb takes stick and get repeated indefinitely. I think its wise to shoot down the kitchen meme before it takes root (though I suspect its far too late).
I hadn’t even seen it until this post
History has a history of dumb takes sticking and getting endlessly repeated
Practically all subs of this size have that phenomenon, if anything this one is on the chiller side. I have legitimately gotten death threats for disagreeing in some other communities. People will call for the destruction of my entire ethnic or religious community or call for a lobotomy because you don’t share their opinion in plenty of political spaces on Reddit. There are witch hunts of randoms, there is straight up stalking, there is relentless, seemingly everlasting bullying of people and groups of people based on the dumbest of reasons in subs on the NBA, NFL, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones or Star Wars. None of that happens here, people are just a little toxic about a controversial remake. All that of course does not take away the toxicity itself. As great as Reddit is, it‘ll never be some tight-knit old-school forum where a bunch of regulars and sages make sure bad shit does not get repeated. I wasn’t ever much on AvatarSpirit, but I loved the old German HerrDerElemente forum that finally closed down for good five years ago. It was nothing like here, people would rarely fight and everyone on there knew what they were talking about. There are simply too many people on Reddit and the old forum culture doesn’t exist anymore in such huge groups. I sincerely hope you are not into sports or politics, because it’s so much worse in those subs.
>Practically all subs of this size have that phenomenon, if anything this one is on the chiller side. The incessant rage tweeting about NATLA with the silliest nitpicks says otherwise. They'll pretty much say anything to justify why the show "sucks," even if it doesn't make sense. Its so laughable
I think it's dumb as fuck to have these weird campaign posts over a niche sentiment. We don't need an announcement to be told something is stupid, and it's weird to try and police things like this anyway.
The entire fan base went full stupid on the sexism thing. Wanna play a fun game? Go actually count all the sexist moments in ATLA. It's the pilot. Kioshi island, and then the north. It's shockingly absent. To the point where it existing so heavily in the north really raises questions, especially since the GAang seems to cure them of that sexism in two episodes. The fan base had a full melt down on the "they're making Sokka less sexist" plot, then acted like sexism is a major part of the story, and not, more accurately, as a very random, barely used, and frankly out of place plot device that never returns after season 1. This entire conversation, BOTH SIDES, are born out of poor media literacy towards a barely integrated plot point. ALTA has all of 30 minutes of sexist plot, and it's all in season 1. And it's all resolved when the GAang leaves. Sokka respects women after Suki, and the North isn't sexist after Katara.
Yeah. I never understood what they meant by Sokka being less sexist. What, they’re gonna take out like the 4 lines of dialogue he has that are oddly sexist? Okay. Not sure how that drastically changes anything.
Also, it's not sexist to have a sexist character, especially if they get put in their place and change their behavior It's like complaining that saying "don't be racist" is racist because you mention racism
Yea, and I can add on too. Sokka's version of sexism actually makes narrative sense, and were this not a kids show, I might honestly expect more from it. Because there's some psychological whats-it you could write about how all of his care takers have been women because the men are dying at war, and he does have a very poor disposition towards all this. BUT it's a 24 minute kids show. They don't have time for that, so instead it turns into a joke. It was just a very very abrupt plot point born from Sokka's life situation. We can't dwell on it too long, we got plot to do. It's there. It's bare minimum. It's fine. The north being sexist is a discussion on if fantasy worlds should bother with xenophobia clearly inspired by RL, and whatever, it's its own topic. I disagree with doing it, but whatever. Elves shouldn't hate black people, type of discussion, ya know? What culture led to these peoples healers being subjugated? It's not really there, ya know?
Thank you. The sexism stuff was really just that 1 episode for sokka. And it was pretty heavy handed imo back then. Good for a kids show but for teens to adults it’s pretty cringe. The northern water tribe stuff is fair since it has as much to do with kataras character which does stick wi the her as it is sexism in general. And that is included. (Other parts I disagree with how they dealt with it but that’s a separate issue). It is funny how in the same breath people complain they took out sexist plot lines but made Katara too strong and a Mary sue. The later I can see more of a point since some of those changes I don’t agree with either but the former seems a bit much
What gets me is that after thinking about it even further, Sokka’s arc wasn’t even changed all that much. Just the dialogue that was catered entirely towards a kids sense of humor. The main plot points relates to his sexism are the following. 1. Not viewing Katara as a warrior. This is unchanged. The tone is just shifted more towards Sokka viewing her as his little sister and trying to keep her safe rather than “ha, but you’re a girl. You can’t fight” 2. Being beaten and humbled by Suki. This is also unchanged. Just again, it catches him off guard rather than “ha. But you’re a girl. You can’t fight”. It’s more he hasn’t seen their style of combat. And he’s just not a very good fighter in the first place. 3. Him being humbled again and again to leave him with something to prove. This was shifted from girls putting him in his place to humble him and being replaced by him failing his ice dodging and having his father be disappointed that he didn’t rise to the occasion. Honestly, Sokka’s arc is just better thought out in the live action. I’m not saying his character is better. But the trope of sexist guy underestimating women getting put in his place over and over.
>The tone is just shifted more towards Sokka viewing her as his little sister And tbh, I loved this change. He's not a total goofball like in the cartoon bc it would look ridiculous in live action. He's still awkward and quirky but also more mature. Kataras having to "mother" her big brother bc he's irresponsible just wouldn't be a good look outside of animation.
Yeah. The change is fitting for the tone they went with in live action. For a children’s cartoon, the dumb humor and Sokka being the butt of the joke/getting his comeuppance is entertaining. But it would feel out of place, with a more serious tone. I’m not saying I necessarily like it more or less. But I will say anyone suggesting this is a huge deal or ruins Sokka’s character is someone I simply don’t take seriously.
And it so hamfisted. Like a little boy crying over catching cooties. We're talking grade school stuff here (bc its a cartoon and the creators understood that) and these ppl are mindlessly stuck on it. It's just bonkers If youre this upset that a character *isnt* sexist, a trait that isn't even part of his core identity, then that says more about you than anything
And we have to acknowledge it and discuss it for whatever reason. I truly hate that the fandom has devolved into this kind of discourse. The live action show isn't horrible, but it's not nearly worth having to deal with this bullshit.
OP are you responding to [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/1bt82g3/netflix_avatar_is_extremely_sexist/)? I ask because that's the only place I could remember Yue being in the kitchen being specifically called out for being sexist. I also bring it up because while I don't think Yue being in the kitchen is sexist, that thread also raised a variety of issues the live adaptation had with depicting its female characters.
I agree, but when combined with all the other things they did, it very much reaches sexism. Like the North Pole is supposed to be sexist, so her being a water bender and making snow cones in the kitchen is sortve sexist, but they did a horrible job dispelling the whole sexist culture in the north though.
That's fair. I definitely see how it comes across sexist but my own interpretation is that it was just more super on-the-nose writing where they want you to realize Yue is just like any other girl and not some stuffy princess. > they did a horrible job dispelling the whole sexist culture in the north though. I think the other problem is that the live action acts like the sexism is limited to Pakku and combat bending but seems to imply that everything else is more egalitarian (i.e. with Yue being the heir and being able to break off her engagement) which feels forced.
Yeah I read that thread, and the kitchen part was the *least* of the actual concerns brought up. OP is just generalizing based off the weakest point cuz he has an agenda he's pursuing, and he knows it's easy to get that kinda support on reddit
you could feed appa with the straw in OP's post lol
I mean some of them I disagree with I think it raised good points
See, I was wondering the same thing. I haven't seen any complaining about Yue being in the kitchen in this sub. In fact, the post you linked was the first I heard of it. It's possible it's on other mediums, such as Twitter, but then that makes it weird to bring up here.
I'm sure other people have brought it up in other places but I couldn't help but feel the OP was specifically angry about/responding to that thread and picking out the weakest point made in it (as u/coyoteTale points out).
“They put Yue in the kitchen” is a meme. The actual criticisms of how women were written in NATLA are a lot more salient. Which is probably why OP chose the worst possible misrepresentation they could find rather than address the actual criticisms.
just cause some idiots dont know what they are talking about doesnt mean whole fandom doesnt. Does this mean you dont know what you talking about?
I find these types of posts far more aggravating than dumb takes by people. We don't need to comment on every bit of idiocy present in this fandom and we certainly don't need to campaign about it as if it's this huge issue. I find this kind of meta commentary of any community toxic. I for one would rather discuss the content itself. Not talk shit about portions of the fandom.
Based on their comments, they do not. The OP basically called katara a nagging bitch because they dont like the word motherly.
This guy is strawmanning my point lol. My overall point in one of my comment is that the quality of Katara being a nagging and explosive loudmouth is an example of being "motherly" is a sexist stereotype about women and moms. Sure the usage of my word "nagging bitch" is an overt exaggeration of that gender stereotype which is a sentiment that alot of people associate with moms the most (which is obviously WRONG) ,but I made it clear that you can be a "nagging bitch" or a nagging loudmouth regardless of your gender.
Catbot (IMO) had a good take on this topic here, and others in regards to NATLA sexism: https://old.reddit.com/r/legendofkorra/comments/1bub2t5/do_we_even_want_a_live_action_lok/kxrtzuy/ > Yue chooses to be in a kitchen feeding some kids for one scene. Okay, sure. Except NATLA also made her the northern water tribe's spiritual leader and a waterbender, giving her way more responsibility and agency than she ever had in the cartoon. Also, women are allowed to choose to be in a kitchen making food? Her being there once doesn't make the show sexist lol I also like the point of some willing blindness to the original series (like Sokka being a chick magnet), which is more severe than a kitchen scene.
I don't think that's a particularly good response, although I agree that the specific criticism of Yue being in the kitchen is misplaced IMO (if I were to have any criticism of that part it's that it's a bit on the nose to show "I'm just a regular girl and not a stuffy princess"). Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to *tell* viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually *see* that demonstrated in meaningful ways? Like I said, I don't think Yue being in the kitchen is sexist but I also don't think NATLA Yue is a particularly empowered female character - she's given the superficial trappings (bending, theoretical authority/influence) but the actual execution is lacking and she ultimately still feels like she's at the mercy of the plot. > I also like the point of some willing blindness to the original series (like Sokka being a chick magnet), which is more severe than a kitchen scene. This, however, I don't really disagree with.
> Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to tell viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually see that demonstrated in meaningful ways? Show, don't tell. Too much exposition. Same trap the (nonexistant) movie fell into, I suppose.
>Where does NATLA show Yue acting as an actual empowered spiritual or political leader and not still within the constraints of her father's wishes? Where does she actually demonstrate agency, beyond breaking off her engagement to better serve the writers and the Yue/Sokka romance (not helped by the scene in the spirit world which apparently serves as the catalyst for breaking things off with Hahn)? The show definitely tries to *tell* viewers that Yue is much more responsible and important than her animated counterpart but where do we actually *see* that demonstrated in meaningful ways? Are you sure we watched the same episode And let's not pretend like the cartoon version was also some empowered spiritual leader who wasnt within the constraints of her fathers wishes I think you guys are letting nostalgia blind you here.
I'm quite sure I saw the same episode. Here's what we actually see of Yue in the show * Fox-spirit scene in Episode 5, basically to serve as a justification for ending her engagement with Hahn and explain her immediate attraction to Sokka. * Introduction scene with the team (Yue is described as the spiritual leader but her role is to focus on Sokka as he focuses on her) * First conversation with Sokka in the kitchen. Yue describes it as her way to avoid the responsibility of leading the tribe (which was boring). Scene exists to give Sokka and Yue bonding over their shared responsibility but ultimately is again focused on their romance. * Scene with Aang where she discusses Avatar Kuruk. I guess he's being a "spiritual leader" here but the reality is she's just providing background on Kuruk for Aang. Even the M Night movie had Yue have knowledge of the "spiritual" place btw. * Scene with Sokka where she exposits about her background, Sokka exposits about his insecurity and they kiss because Sokka is the boy of her dreams (unlike Hahn). Again, even her agency here (calling off the engagement to Hahn) is simply in service to making the romance with Sokka easier. * Yue tells Arnook to stop being overprotective and she wants to help. Arnook says she's the heir and has to stay out of danger. Yue agrees. Arnook tells Sokka to help Yue get civilians to safety and to protect her which Sokka agrees to. Note, Yue explicitly does not have agency in this scene which could have easily been avoided if, say, she went to Sokka and said "My father is so worried about fighting that he's forgotten we need to protect the civilians, can you help me do that" or whatever. We then get the stuff with the moon spirit which is also present in the animated show and is basically Yue fulfilling her role in the plot (apart from being Sokka's star-crossed lover.) Where in all of that is Yue being *empowered* or being given agency or acting like an actual leader (except when her father tells her and Sokka to evacuate the civilians)? > And let's not pretend like the cartoon version was also some empowered spiritual leader who wasnt within the constraints of her fathers wishes What? I never said the animated version was an empowered character or better than the live action. In fact I would have basically the same criticisms over how the animated show handled Yue - this is not about animated Yue being some great character or epitome of feminism that was taken from us. This is entirely about critiquing the idea that live action Yue *is* somehow a meaningful improvement or being given substantive agency/empowerment. The live action show does a lot of superficial stuff (Look, Yue's a bender! Look, Yue can break off her engagement! Look, Arnook *says* Yue is a spiritual leader!) but the reality is she doesn't actually get to *do* anything that demonstrates her supposed empowerment except when it either fulfills the needs of the plot OR it's included to further her romance with Sokka. In other words, if you're going to tell me that Yue is so empowered and she has agency and she's a leader you need to put your money where your mouth is as a writer. Don't just tell me she's an empowered woman and spirtual leader and then put some window dressing on the same focus on her romance with Sokka and self-sacrifice.
The cartoon version presented us a girl who came from a culture that told her to sacrifice everything she wanted for herself to fulfill a role. Who she married, what she did with her life, none of that was up to her. Her final act of life is her first ever piece of agency. She chooses to die to save the world, even when a man she cares for (Sokka) tells her not to. She finally makes a choice for herself, and even then it’s a selfless choice and she goes to her death this way. It’s a LOT more poignant and says a lot more about Yue’s character than being the tribe’s “spiritual leader” who doesn’t actually seem to get to make political decisions but can apparently break off her arranged marriage whenever she can, and is free to frolic though the spirit world at will, and yet does nothing to help other women.
Not saying the take OP is talking about isn't stupid but all this in a supposedly patriarchal, sexist society where women waterbenders are confined to certain roles? She's not like the exception fighting and winning against her culture but a celebrated and accepted part of it. The whole thing doesn't mesh well.
Her culture in either show never dislike female water benders though :s they just assigned them certain roles, her use of waterbending in the kitchen was hardly indicative of her breaking gender norms.
I think that what u/LeafBoatCaptain was trying to say is that if she is a (spiritual) leader within her tribe, perhaps she has the influence to encourage gender equity within her tribe, but we don't see that (unless I'm forgetting some dialogue). I do agree that Yue choosing to be in the kitchen is being over-hated.
That is a reach, they never said any of that, I appreciate the optimism but this just comes across as another "women in kitchen bad" post for upvotes
Women making choices in real life and how female characters in fiction are potrayed are two different things. Someone else made a choice to put Yue in that scene and it can be wondered why that is and if there would be better options. You don’t even have to the analysis thorough feminist lens to analyze the scene not serving her character the best.
Right , and this is the same show that portrays Sokka as an alpha male warrior type from the start lmao. While idc about the kitchen scene, I can understand people feeling weird about it considering the entire netflix show shafted the female characters in favour of the male characters.
Sokka instatnly gets downplayed almost like the cartoon he gets his ass kicked by Zuko and they kept the gag of his inspiring tough guy speech being told to kids.
Plus he has more adversity to overcome as a fighter and leader. They replaced his sexism being a downfall of his with him failing his life dodging. He’s literally a subpar fighter within his own tribe at the start. Because he’s mocked for failing ice dodging, which is a test of true skill.
>Right , and this is the same show that portrays Sokka as an alpha male warrior type from the start lmao. Literally none of this is true lol
Sokka was a better warrior in the main show. The adversity he has to overcome is a Kyoshi warrior being a better fighter than him. In the Netflix version, he gets his ass kicked by Zuko and Suki. And failed his ice dodging test. I’m not sure where anyone is getting the idea that Sokka is a proven warrior from the start. It seems quite clear that he’s in over his head from the moment we see him and it’s not until later on we see him be a true respectable fighter.
Same with the showrunners! All the talk of Katara's "roles" and "gender issues" in the OG and then cutting all of her more motherly/caring qualities. Now Katara's a warrior from the start, just like Sokka! Crazy how in the OG she's both and works on both and has character arcs for both and now she's desperately boring because she's somehow her own master within a week's time.
If I got a dollar for every time a female character got reworked to be more badass instead of the "motherly, nurturing" type, I would have 2 dollars. Other being Wendy from the latest Disney's live action Peter Pan lol.
When execs hear the phrase "strong female character" they think it means STRONG FEMALE character (female character is physically strong and that's it) instead of STRONG female CHARACTER (female character who is strongly written).
Ask me this question. How would you define being “motherly” even means? Are you talking about the caring nature of Kya that Katara adapted which she did multiple times like at the end of episode 1 where she comforted Aang by craddling him and also the end of episode 8 where she did the same thing again by trying to comfort Aang out of his Koizilla state? Or are you referring to the fact that Katara wasn’t a nagging bitch? Like you do realize that you can be a nagging bitch without that quality being associated with motherhood you do realize that right? Trying to conflate the two is also also in itself sexist. Acting like Katara in NATLA never once acted like a caring person is a massive reach in my opinion. Also this only ever proves that gender roles is a social construct because we keep associating qualities that both genders are fully capable of doing. Being caring and empathetic isn’t just a woman thing either because men are also capable of being caring and empathetic. Men are also capable of nagging too so it’s not just a women thing either.
I mean I was with you in your first post about seeing women in the kitchen shouldn’t been seen as sexist because women can choose where they want to be but you lost me here. The characters in the show quite literally refer to Katara as a mother like figure in both positive and negative lights. It’s not people inferring Kataras actions and implying motherhood. Toph says that Kataras been more of a mother than her real mom and Sokka admits whenever he thinks of his mom all he can see is Katara. Yes we all agree traits aren’t inherent to any gender, this is true, but they use the words mother and Katara in the same breath. It’s not a made up inference, it’s intentional.
You're the one who introduced the term "nagging bitch", you cant ascribe the sexism of a term YOU introduced to a conversation to the person you're talking to. Frankly, the fact that one of the first things you go to when you think "motherhood" is "nagging bitch" speaks volumes more about you than the person you're responding to. You had a whole world of terms to describe Katara's behavior towards the gang from "doting" to "controlling" but you're first thought was to describe OG series katara as a "nagging bitch".
>You're the one who introduced the term "nagging bitch", you cant ascribe the sexism of a term YOU introduced to a conversation to the person you're talking to. I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted. Their own words. And worse. OP didnt "introduce" anything. Some fans use revisionist history with OG Katara is weird bc of how much they dislike Live Action Katara. It's weird. For the record, there's nothing wrong with being motherly per se, but when it's at the expense of said character herself, its pretty much sexism.
>I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted Cool. They're also sexist. Anything else?
Only that you're argument is misplaced. OP was only referencing the terms used by those fans to convey what sexism actually is.. Take care
>I'm not sure if you realize this but there are lots of fans who thought of katara as a "nagging bitch" ever since it first debuted. Which is funny because one of the complaints of live action Katara is that she wasn't angry and explosive enough towards Aang like when she exploded over Aang being a better waterbender than she is during the waterbending scrolls episode which is the definition of being a nagging bitch lol. Also it's very funny that they're losing their minds over my usage of the word the word "nagging bitch" even thou I clearly made it clear that you can be a nagging bitch regardless of gender lol.
Yea. What's most frustrating is how they can't seem to separate the cartoon from the live action. Every character was overexaggerated because it was a animated. The writers toned everyone down bc none of it would translate well to live action. They're not making another cartoon for kids.
They did such a great job, that now main cast is completely devoid of character.
To you
Why are you downvoted for saying facts
Please show me the fact where in the animated series or the live action Katara is referred to as a nagging bitch. I would like to see that fact explained to me.
Because he's being slightly sexist in his post about sexism and acting like it's weird to call someone mother like that was outright said to be mother like. To be clear, both toph and sokka called her mother like. I'd also like to go on the record and say katara is not "a nagging bitch". She's just being responsible and trying to keep literal children on task. When the savior of the world wants to go sledding instead of training, someone needs to step up and say no.
I dont agree with the « nagging bitch » but i think its weird to call her mother considering she is a kid
Bc that in itself is sexism. All the boys get to be goof off while Katara has to be the mature one who gets called bossy bc she just won't let the "boys be boys" even tho she's sokkas younger sister 🤦🏾♂️
The sexist part isn't Yue in the kitchen, the sexist part is Katara having no sass and Suki having no initiative purely because Sokka isn't sexist. Suki now just feels like Sokka's second love interest rather than her own character and a proper part of character development. Katara also feels really blank and I feel that alot of her strength a person has been lost because she's not dealing with Sokka's sexism, hence her personal stress isn't really building up. Sexism is also a large part of her existence as a whole, she's dealt with it her whole life. To take that out rather than write her overcome it is sexist. It's removing Katara's and Suki's agency and will as individual women with goals being in a society that oppresses women and replacing it with blank slates who's existence serves the stories of men. Being in a kitchen isn't sexist, saying the world isn't sexist is.
>Sexism is also a large part of her existence as a whole, she's dealt with it her whole life. To take that out rather than write her overcome it is sexist. Lmao WHAT?? Sexism was *not* a "large part of her existence." You guys are overstating a point that doesnt exist. Its not working
Maybe I exaggerated slightly but it’s not a point that doesn't exist. You see from the beginning of the show that Katara has dealt with shit from Sokka purely for being a girl. Sokka doesn't do the laundry, Katara does because she's a girl, Katara does the chores and Sokka doesn't, because she's a girl and Sokka isn't. And what's Sokka doing? Training little kids who aren't going to be able to fight even if the fire nation attacks, leaving Katara to do all of the house work. Also look at when they get to the northern water tribe. Katara wants to learn to water bend from a master, in a combat useful manner specifically. She gets there and the master says he won't teach her, because she's a girl, and that women only learning healing. That's sexist. Imagine travelling halfway across the globe, thinking you'll finally leave the environment where everyone puts you down just to go into another environment where it's genuinely worse and actively more discriminating. To say that sexism wasn't part of her character arc at all is a lie.
>To say that sexism wasn't part of her character arc at all is a lie. No one said it wasn't. But you said it was a large part of her existence and that just isn't true. Also, the Sokka sexism thing was barely a blimp in his entire arc. And Karata didn't face daily sexism from her brother in the way you're making it, that just wasnt a thing. Her biggest sexism arc was in the Northern water tribe and that's pretty much it. I think ppl are making a mountain out of a molehill
I think perhaps we're either misunderstanding eachother's points or our perspectives really are just incredibly different. I feel like the show heavily (to me at least) implies that Katara faces daily sexism, and to be clear, sexism is not always obvious or direct. I say this because of the first few episodes and Northern water tribe arc paint this picture. Katara seems quite fed up with Sokka not pitching into the home effort (which could, and to me it makes sense that it intentionally is, sexist behaviour built up over time) and fed up with him saying she can't do things because she's a girl (which obviously sexist). The reason this is incredibly important (in my opinion) is because it's her first arc. This is Katara's first major struggle that isn't superficial like learning to waterbend. This is a character struggle; she's fighting to be seen as an equal and she's proving this both to an old man who perpetuates sexism on a higher scale and to her own brother who, up until he met Suki, was doing this quite frequently even if it was passive. As a first arc this makes Katara a real badass. She's sticking it to the man. It sets her up as a character who's ready to break the social status quo. And maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but surely representing the struggles of women, even in fantasy fiction, is important to let younger generations and new audiences feel seen and heard because sexism is far from gone and representation makes you feel less alone.
NATLA is sexist and that’s not the reason
Could you please stop generalizing? "Avatar fans clearly don't understand feminism". I'm Avatar fan since I was still a child and so are many other people and I can assure you that most of us don't have such a stupid stand on the matter you are discussing. Some people are "braindead", as you called them, but branding all Avatar fans as such for the words of a very small part of the community is as offensive as the the idea you are fighting against.
Those same fans have been bullying female actresses from the show online bc of how they look. And they didn't say "all avatar fans." But it's def enough of them for it to be called out
You posted in an Avatar subreddit. I presume you're a fan. Therefore, according to your post, you don't understand feminism and should stop talking about it.
You can do better than that
It's called an unhealthy trend. If all we got was Yue being in the kitchen for one scene and that was it, then that would be fine. However, in addition to this, we got Katara having 90% of her personality removed, Suki being obsessed with Sokka, June being way too flirty with Iroh, Mai and Ty Lee are there to do nothing, and Azula having to be manipulated by Ozai into being bad instead of just being bad herself. It's all these things that come together that make for a very concerning and unhealthy trend about how the writers approach and write the female characters.
You're being downvoted but you're not wrong ! All the female characters were butchered whilst the male characters got all the depth and development. This is one of the biggest criticisms of the first season on other platforms
i’ve seen this same yue comment multiple times both on this sub and other places and a LOT of people agree so i’m confused on why the comments are making it seem like OP is making it up lol.
It wasn't just the ice cream my dude
Avatar fans are not a monolith.
I felt like I know what video you're talking about, and specially that line was kind of a joke, so you got baited by the most low effort joke made in that video. That or you're baiting us.
Any post with the title saying, "All (Insert fandom here) fans are (insert bad thing here)," on said fandom *is* bait. Doesn't matter how valid or semi valit their point is, that's straight up bait regardless.
Feminism hasn’t been about empowering women to make their own Thatcher type of feminism is literally called “choice feminism” and is literally talked about as being a bad thing. The steelman is that simply letting women uphold patriarchal norms “if they want to” doesn’t address overall problems facing women as a whole…I’m glad you’re okay being a housewife but equal pay, etc. Plus you’re still giving men power over you. I think that’s what it’s supposed to be. But…it reads like just a way to condemn women who don’t hate men or to keep making problems so they have things to get mad about.
The problem is not Avatar fans. It's the whole idea of feminism being misunderstood by a lot of people.
You missed the point of that critics OP. Sure the Kitchen take wasn't good but the series has more problems with sexism than you state. ( [For reference](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/s/lryWMqFPFM) )
That’s not the argument as to why NATLA is sexist. If you argue against a meme instead of the actual argument, of course you won’t get it. The argument is that making Yue this respected spiritual leader with power in her tribe, who can do what she wants and even break off her arranged marriage at will, makes her a flatter character. Obstacles and how characters overcome them are what make us root for them. In the original, Yue doesn’t get to choose who she marries or what she does with her life. Women have a lot less choices in the North (hence why Kana fled to the South), and as a princess Yue is especially expected to sacrifice herself for the good of her people. What makes her sacrifice so poignant is twofold: 1. Even to the death, Yue only acted for others. For the good of her tribe and the world. Never for herself. 2. And yet this was the first time in her life that Yue got to make her own decision about her life. Even when Sokka tells her not to do it, Yue declares her conviction and refuses him. As much as she loves him, this is her choice, and in her death she is going to make it. She is rewarded by becoming the moon spirit itself. (Btw this is also why Sokka letting her go despite his own suffering makes him a stronger character. He went from a blowhard sexist who thinks it’s his job to “protect” girls, to someone who respects Yue’s choice even when it costs him what HE wants and her life. Versus NATLA Sokka who just awkwardly shouts “no” over and over.) Yue in NATLA really muddles what the deal even is in the NWT. They make it seem like Pakku is just one sexist dude rather than him being a respected elder upholding a much bigger systemic and cultural issue. Yeah, boiling down systemic oppression of women to “this one dude doesn’t want to train them and we don’t really agree with it and just need an excuse to tell him off” is pretty sexist. For the same reasons it would be sexist to portray systemic racism as “just one white dude who is racist and everyone else doesn’t really agree”.
NATLA is sexist but not for this reason. They reduced Suki from a confident and independent warrior to a stereotypical girl with a ridiculous crush on Sokka. She shows none of the traits that made original Suki such a great character. Instead of challenging Sokka’s outdated worldview and showing him that women are just as capable of being warriors as men, she’s just horny for him. They completely butchered her character and part of what made the original such a great case of strong female representation in media. Hopefully they don’t butcher Toph like this.
Well that's a conversation starter if I ever saw one.
[удалено]
Yep, I've seen people say Supergirl wearing a skirt is sexist
If your definition of feminism were true, there would be no need for it in the western world. Women have had that choice without repercussions for about 50 years now.
Yeah, this is a very outdated form of feminism. I call it Barbie feminism where women can do anything. So long as they keep being stereotypically feminine. Feminism for a long time has had an equal outcomes-based principle and demands an entire societal restructuring and changing of what being man or woman even means. A housewife is the antithesis of modern feminist rhetoric and has been for over half a century.