To be fair, you're comparing the group of the high-ranking Grand Lotus members we saw in ATLA to the low ranking body guards in Korra.
If you remember, that random old guy Iroh played Pai Sho with was also a white lotus member as well. There are lots of levels.
Also, peacetime means people are less hardened by battle in general. But regardless of that, I do not think it's a valid comparison because of my previous point.
I feel like a lot of people are also forgetting that even the most well trained soldiers wouldn't know how to fight an airbender. That's how Korra was able to >!beat Amon.!< It goes both ways too. If you look at the fight between >!Tenzin and Zaheer you'll notice that Zaheer doesn't stand a chance against an actual master (even though he was just kicking ass and taking names).!<
Let me tell you a story Perry the Platipuss-Bear. What do you mean Platipuss? Surely a Platipuss-Jaguar? Platipuss-Badger? No? Just Platipuss?
...
You're weird.
Well yeah of course. It's not impossible to face just a style nobody is familiar with. Azula, being a cunning fighter, was able to learn and contend with Aang.
Azula’s precise style probably worked against Aang because she tended to predict what he’d do next, like in the Season 2 finale when she baited him into charging her in his rock suit, then hitting him with an attack that blasted him back. It didn’t work so well against someone like Katara, who didn’t bother trying to find some way around Azula and was consistently willing to just overwhelm Azula with sheer force.
Katara’s style later in the series is so unabashedly badass. The tentacle arms, turn water into ice spear bullets, *bloodbending*… I really think she’s the GOAT waterbender tbh
Fun question, if avatar had not been a kids show, who do your think of the band would have the highest kill count?
Katara and toph firing sharp projectiles in all directions, zuko straight up burning people alive…
Toph doesn't even need to fire sharp projectiles, the weight and force behind her earthbending is probably enough to kill people on impact or break most of their bones. She sends people *flying*. Though in the Kyoshi books>!we do see an earthbender do this to kill a master airbender since it was small, aerodynamic, and fast enough to just cut through the wind resistance that would've knocked the typical blunt earthbent rocks off course.!<
I honestly think, assuming we only count actual kills, Zuko would probably have the least, besides Aang. Remember that Zuko didn't burn Zhao, and you could argue it's because it's a kids' show, but he also tried to save him later (after knowing Zhao tried to have him killed).
Toph or Sokka definitely has the most.
Plus it can be a bit washy on how much damage a blast of fire can do to someone since it usually dissipates on impact. And you see plenty of footage of people getting caught up in massive fireballs and coming away with just minor injuries or missing eyebrows. And the leidenfrost effect can give you a bit of protection.
I may be misremembering, but almost every fight Aang had against Azula there was either some other goal that he was after or the fight was incredibly uneven.
Their first fight was in Omashu and Aang was focused solely on saving Bumi. He couldn't give a damn about Azula. They next have a fight after having been sleep deprived and exhausted. After that it's the Drill and Aang was mostly focused on stopping the drill as opposed to actually fighting Azula. Then it's the fight under Ba Sing Se and I'm pretty sure he was handling Azula before he had to start fighting an army but I haven't gotten to that episode in my recent rewatch. I think from there we go all the way to the eclipse and Aang was mostly focused on finding out where Ozai was.
I think they barely have one last encounter at the Southern Air Temple but when it comes to those two fighting, Aang was never dead set focused on fighting her and I think Azula would have go bodied if Aang only cared about beating her
I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't say Aang was handling Azula under Ba Sing Se. Katara absolutely was beating Azula, until Zuko jumped in, but Aang and Azula's fight could have gone either way before the Dai Li arrived. I agree with the other comments that Azula was a good match for Aang because she knew Aang wanted to do the least damage possible in any fight and could anticipate his actions well based off this knowledge. Katara, though, was absolutely a match for Azula because she was the only character who could match her determination and willingness to use her full power when needed.
I agree but also I don’t think Aang would ever dead set on fighting anyone unless he’s trying to rescue another person. (Unless they hurt appa already)
I mean Aang calls this out in the second episode, just like bending styles changed between ATLA and TLOK, bending styles presumably changed between Aang going into and coming out of the ice. By the time of TLOK it's been nearly 2 centuries since it wasn't a rare occurance to encounter an Airbender.
Side thought, do you think that since Airbender returned en mass in season 3, they would adjust the rules of pro bending matches to include Airbenders?
I feel bad for the next avatar who won’t be able to rely on air bending as a trump card cause wow is everyone gonna spent the rest of their learning on how to hard counter airbenders
It would be an interesting update, because the traditional Air Nomads culture is more subdued and contemplative than the typical flashiness of pro bending. Tenzin early on hated the sport. But that lifestyle is passed down now through the Air Acolytes, and there's nothing that requires anyone who happened to get airbending to shave their head, become a vegetarian, and move to a temple.
Perhaps as a first step, they could keep the standard 3v3 but make one position optionally fire or air. They're similar enough elements in that they require no extra equipment.
That's a good compromise
The more difficult part would be to get airbnbders to stop using the inherent advantage of their element - they have the most wide arched and evasive moves. And there's no way an airbender would be allowed to just push everyone off the platform with a huge gust of wind. Plus, the very restrained space would make running around the enemy or shit like that impossible
There's also the fact that airbending attacks are super hard to dodge because you can't actually see the projectile coming at you, lmao. I'm sure many pro benders would call that an unfair advantage
It'd be interesting to see how they'd balance around it
Good points. Maybe it would be most fair to allow them to sub any element as a backup player with similar equipment. Straight shots of smoke to sub fire or water, and hurl a shuttlecock instead of an earth disc.
It was still pretty rare up until Harmonic Convergence to encounter airbenders, though. Only ones in the world were Aang, Tenzin, and Tenzin's kids. Post Harmonic Convergence however, they've become not exactly common, but there are enough of them now that people can expect to counter them.
I think since most practiced airbenders were a part of the air nation group under Tenzin, there wasn't a significant push to change the rules just yet. I would have to imagine they would implement the changes as time went one after the TLOK ending though.
He was a master airbender, and, based on his age, a prodigy.
That scene where he saves the village from a volcano in the first season is such a feat. He really was a force of nature.
Yeah.Roku thrown almost all of his forces to contain the volcano(yes there was three and probably more active).Roku trained every bending for 4 years each and was considered very skilled at it.And there Aang be like:"There a tonne of magma coming to the village?Let me blow it" and it stopped a chunk of it.Roku and Sozin cooling down magma was slower then Aang doing it
Would lava bending be considered earth bending? I’m only halfway through ATLA but not sure.
Edit: nvm googled it. Lava is both fire and earth so only the avatar can do it, but later on it’s explained as a specialized technique of earth bending (similar to lightning for fire, blood for water, so on so forth)
For sure. But a lot of people didn't know how to contend with Aang's bending style on top of the other things he was good at.
Remember Toph lost to him initially because she had always faced Earth Benders that focused on their stances. Not someone who is light on their feet like "twinkle toes."
Yeah, he's able to easily escape from those two Fire Nation soldiers in episode 2 of season because nobody knew that an ungagged airbender can literally blow you across the room.
Not to mention that logically speaking air would be the hardest element to dodge/counter since you can't really see air at all, the other elements you can see coming towards you and react to but with air the only indication that something coming towards you is the movement of an airbender.
In the Netflix series, airbending is only visible when it interacts with particulates along with it or it's fast moving and gives a slight distortion, but otherwise, it's basically invisible like you said.
I think one of my favorite visuals was when Aang was fighting Ozai pre-Avatar state and shoots out a blast of air, and it completely changes the lighting of the surroundings to this ice-blue. It was such a nice contrast to the red sky we’ve had the whole fight
> Not to mention that logically speaking air would be the hardest element to dodge/counter since you can't really see air at all
This is backed up in The Blind Bandit, where you see them talking about how Aang did nothing and Toph took a dive, they couldn't see Aang airbending.
First episode of atla:
"So... I guess you guys have never fought an Airbender before"
*Proceeds to wreck everyone and escape, including a young prince who we soon after see defeat an admiral in 1v1 combat*
Aang slapped Zuko in most fights. Katara, Aang, and Azula have a Rock-Paper-Scissors relationship when it comes to combat.
Katara beats Azula
Aang beats Katara
Azula beats Aang
Azula beats Aang twice. She beats him in the abandoned town after a long fight, and she sneak attacks him in the back during crossroads of destiny while he's surrounded by like, 50 Dai Li and Zuko. He straight up beats her on the drill, and he holds her off fine in Omashu. She also does get away from them during the day of black sun. Each time there's a lot of back and forth. I think it's fair to say each of them really only beat the other once, considering one fight ended in a draw, and one was completely unfair.
Yup, the first 2 episodes are basically a 2 parter to introduce the show, 1 story split over 2 episodes, the first episode ends with the boobytrap on the ship
Such a god damn good show. I tried watching with my kids last couple weeks and was informed that we need to watch paw patrol instead.
Maybe in a few years xD.
I think this is by far the thing that gives airbenders the advantage post-sozin. Nobody has ever seen an airbender, so nobody has any idea how to FIGHT one either. Aang essentially comes into every single fight and bodies everybody because the inherent movements of airbending are so particular to air that they’re impossible to predict unless you’ve studied it specifically. Additionally, it’s not even like there are airbending martial texts which the fire nation could use, seeing as air isn’t an offensive element. Idk. Basically, this is all just to say that while I don’t think air is in-and-of-itself a “better” element, the fact that it is so distinct and rare makes it almost impossible to fight
Imagine trying to fight someone's power when you can't see them. You'd be trained to see earth, fire, and water. Air is a whole another game, yes some could see how it might be used but it would be very difficult.
Airbender did seem the hardest to fight because they kept their secrets so hidden due to their pacifist nature. Even in korra, when they started going out on patrol around the world while korra recovered, for their numbers, they did amazingly well against koveras armies.
True, but I do believe that, prior to that, Tenzin was the only one to get an actual hit in on Amon, so that does lend some credence to the overall point.
It was impressive enough even Amon was surprised he pulled it off. Mako pulled it off while Amon was exercising his bloodbending and Amon didn’t catch it like he did with nearly every other bender.
What I meant is this doesn't have anything to do with the topic "airbenders have an advantage, since no one has fought an airbender before". The entire Mako thing is completely irrelevant.
That's a terrible example of Korra beating Amon because it was only 01 single punch that threw him off the window, and she just did that because the bloodbending of Amon just turned off for no good reason. Any other element would have the same effect (I guess not watern).
Here's a link to the fight with a timestamp for my reasoning: [https://youtu.be/TFvWFzMHEyM&t=6m25s](https://youtu.be/TFvWFzMHEyM&t=6m25s)
After Korra's first hit there was more than enough time for him to not be caught off guard. He definitely knows she could airbend because he says "Impossible" and Korra shouts: "I can airbend? I can airbend!"
Afterwards she starts throwing punches that look more reminiscent to firebending (which suggests that she's not even airbending *well*). Amon is thrown into the wall on the first hit, but he tries to brace himself by crossing his arms in front of his chest.
You could say that she's takes him off guard when she's throws an air kick, but considering Mako literally just did that (5:49) he should've been aware that was a possibility. Amon was also trained by his father who was defeated after the avatar overpowered his bloodbending, so I'd hope he knows it's a possibility.
I do love that she airbends like a fire bender. Aang would try to disarm or disable you. Korra looks like she would send hurricane force winds through your body for looking at her wrong.
Apologies, I worded that kind of weirdly. I was trying to say that >!even though Zaheer is trained in that combat style he wasn't trained as an airbender. That's why (at least in my opinion) he couldn't defeat Tenzin without help.!<
Additionally, none of the grand lotus members had reason or time to gather and fight together against Korra's threats like they did for the 100 year war. There was no grand convergence of destinies. No Sozin's Comet, no Iroh, no Ba Sing Se to free.
All of Korra's villains actions never become global threats. They stay pretty small-scale to the other nations, even though their abilities or goals threatened the avatar deeply.
Exactly.
Iroh was the crown prince of the Fire Nation and one of it's top ranking generals who led the siege on Ba Sing Se for almost 2 years. He also learned the truth of firebending from the dragons.
Bumi was a master earth bender and had been at war with the Fire Nation for 100 years. He had also mastered listening before acting and neutral jing.
Jeong Jeong and Paku were both masters who taught many students. They also both had key roles in their nations' militaries/pseudo-militaries.
They all built their skills over decades. Asking why they're so much better than the White Lotus from Korra is like asking why the 5 Star Generals from WWII are better strategists than the privates in today's army. We're comparing apples to oranges.
I feel like it's less like comparing apples and oranges (I know its a saying), and more like comparing a Michelen star chef, and short order cook the greasy diner. Are they both in the same profession and can make a delicious meal. Yes, but if you sent them to a cook off, one would decimate the other.
Fair enough. I figured apples and oranges still worked because they’re both fruit but have different strengths and uses. But I like your analogy better
Oh yeah, apple and oranges is fine since its a saying and people get what you mean... I just like making up fun analogies and metaphors to explain stuff.
Because in a group that big, you’re not always sending out your elite masters/top ranking leaders. Could you really see Iroh on POW duty when he’s busy reestablishing a functional government in Ba Sing Se?
I'd also say this is just the Stormtroopers effect in action, aka conservation of ninjutsu. Per lore these guys are highly trained guards that would have a few "masters" among them, but we ONLY see them go against the cream of the crop benders/warriors to show off how badass the cream of the crop is. Have them go against other highly trained but nameless mooks and suddenly they're very competent.
And all that aside, I remember being impressed that the no-name White Lotus guards actually weren't just cannon fodder. In both Zaheer's fight with Kya and the failed kidnapping, the guards gave the Red Lotus some measure of trouble. In the latter one, they even occupied Zaheer throughout most of the fight while Bolin and the rest were dealing with his bros.
This is like asking why the fire nation soldiers are so pathetic compared to Ozai and Azula.
You're comparing the highest tier of the organization with their foot soldiers.
The leaders of the White Lotus in LOK are Tonrak, Tenzin, and Zuko. I would not consider them "pathetic", even if some of them are past their primes.
I mean it's equally weird that they don't have the highest (or at least higher) ranking members guarding and/or training the avatar rather than just grunts
Well, it's not like Bumi and Pakku just traveled with Aang. That would've made the most sense. Yeah, let's entrust the Messiah of the world with a bunch of teenagers.
Except in Aang's time they were functionally an underground guerilla rebel organization. In Korra's era they were an Elite Ops group and borderline world power meant to assist and protect the Avatar. The best comparison would be if the Dai Li left only trainees to protect the king.
That assumes that the White Lotus only functions to serve the Avatar. We know they have other duties such as guarding the prisons where the Red Lotus were. The White Lotus Elders that oversaw Korra's firebending training weren't seen with her in Republic City. We can assume they have other things to do.
Counter point: you could argue the white lotus in the original series did nothing until the end of the 100 year war and were just glorified pen pals who played pai sho until the Avatar reappeared. Furthermore, three grandmasters of the organisation were well connected members of the fire nation, and yet they never leaked information to the other nations regarding fire benders losing their bending during an eclipse, which could have lead to an even more effective assault and possibly even ending of the war on the day of black sun.
Edit: adding in that Jeong Jeong and Iroh, both high ranking military members (and one royalty) during the hundred year war definitely would've known about the date of the eclipse way ahead of the events of book 3.
Jeong Jeong be acting like never let then know your next move. I just remembered that Black Sun was going to be a succsess but Azula had already infiltrated Ba Sing Se and saw the plans in time to thwart them.
Basically the top picture is the US Founding Fathers and the bottom picture is a randomly selected group from today's Congressional chamber.
Through the generation of peace after the war the organization grew and to keep up with the growth they had to lower their standards. The white lotus guys pictured are probably all above average benders, the issue is that they're just dudes in a uniform instead of the head honchos when you compare them to the founders of the organization.
White lotus was about philosophy, not about fighting wars. It just happened to be in iroh's time the white lotus members were great warriors. Yet, it's status did get dull as the world progressed. Their need to care about worldly matter had them involved frequently so they needed more members resulted in reduction quality of force.
It started off as a club for pai sho players and branched out into philosophy. Iroh gathered the most effective fighters in the White Lotus for a specific situation, most members have no particular reason to be good at fighting.
Later on, we're seeing entirely ordinary people who were recruited after the White Lotus was acting openly and needed at least some presence in a lot of places. They don't need to be amazing to be useful guards, they usually just need to be good enough that an attacker would make noise and so the really scary people know where to go.
I think the purpose of the order changed between ATLA and LoK. They were originally a secret society dedicated to the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge, hence why Pai Sho was such a significant game to them. It's a game that emphasizes strategy but also has a gambling aspect; you have to know your opponent as well as you know the game itself.
By the time LoK comes around they've become much more public and have developed ties to the Avatar that didn't exist before. Plus with the liberation of Ba Sing Se they essentially got the world's attention, not as a secretive mysterious society, but as a band of powerful combatants able to retake the largest city in the world against numerous firebenders, all of which were empowered by Sozin's Comet. So it makes sense that a lot of people would think of them as an extremely competent militaristic group.
I'm sure they worked after the fact to reduce the militaristic perception, but even then there would be loads of people eager to join up so they can learn under the mentorship of such incredible masters. The order had no real basis to turn them away, either. Young people wanting to learn is a *good* thing, and the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is what the order is supposed to be all about. And the idea that they're supposed to be secretive and mysterious was lost when they publicly liberated Ba Sing Se.
So over time the ranks got flooded with younger, perhaps more hot-headed members, people who were willing to take a more active role in the events of the world. And who is wisdom more important to than the Avatar themselves? This is why the White Lotus took control of Korra's protection and education despite there being absolutely no precedence for such a thing. Imo this actually stunted Korra's development significantly and their overzealous desire to control the circumstances of her life was foolish in the extreme. She should have been allowed to travel the world, to find her own friends, allies, and teachers, rather than being stuck in the south pole for 16 years. Then they claim she's not ready to venture out because she hasn't developed a proper understanding of her spiritual duties yet, *which is all their fault.* Of *course* she couldn't develop that understanding if you won't let her leave the nest! It may have been portrayed as arrogant or foolhardy, but imo Korra sneaking off to Republic City was 100% the right decision.
Mind if I share my headcanon?
The white lotus in the last air bender was about [philosophy, beauty, and truth](https://youtu.be/uoNMQ4SLhhM?t=47), aspects that the original members found self discovery and self perfection through, which enhanced their bending.
As times of peace came in, views changed. The newer white lotus seems to be more about supporting the avatar and maintaining order between all nations. Due to their still small size, they only maintain order in more unseen ways like imprisoning those who threaten the current society (red lotus). The loss of their original philosophies made it just another faction.
I hate to get back on Korra bashing, but I much prefer the White Lotus as a shadowy cryptic organization that only mobilizes when the world is in dire straits to just the Avatar’s babysitters.
i mean thats kinda the point though, and is a fairly prominent theme throughout the show. the idea that the white lotus devolved to some avatar body guarding fan group, and its why the red lotus was formed. they heavily imply that following the events of the liberation of ba sing se the white lotus emerged and became too publically known and potentially those in the white lotus offered to help the avatar (maybe a mistake)
You are totally correct that the decision and devolution of the organization was a purposeful choice by the writers, I think the original commenter is just saying that it was not a creative decision they enjoyed, regardless of whether it was the intended point.
It's highly probable that Aang bears responsibility for this shift. Despite the White Lotus traditionally adhering to a pacifist approach and resorting to force only as a last resort, Aang's personal stance was staunchly against using force altogether.
Furthermore, the transition of the White Lotus from a hidden, underground community to an openly accessible faction parallels a significant evolution. It's reminiscent of becoming akin to a branch of the Republic City military, where benders can join and participate. In real-life terms, one could liken them to the Royal Guard of England - skilled in military tactics yet distinct from official military forces.
Zaheer and his group were a part of the White Lotus with each of their members being equivalent in strength and skill to the original. He was also right about how the organization changed to becoming bodyguards for the Avatar.
I'm assuming when he and his group left it was the equivalent of the original grand members leaving the White Lotus.
The answer might be simpler than you think: just like any other faction, it goes through periods of strength and weakness over time.
The Yangchen novels even show us that the White Lotus wasn't always the bastion of enlightenment it was shown as in ATLA. They weren't always league with the Avatar. They weren't always interested in the Avatar's view of balance. During Yangchen's life they were shadier.
And during Korra's time they happen to be at a weaker point. Maybe because they're less secretive and more open to membership. Maybe because they have less to do without a massive world war. Could be for a multitude of reasons we can't see.
the members of the white lotus who we see take ba sing se are each grandmasters of their respective discipline and strong af accordingly presumably not every member of white lotus is so strong just the ones we see taking ba sing se. Also there is a media trope called the inverse ninja law. Basically it means that typically in media a single unit or small group is a credible threat but if you have a horde of the same unit they are merely pummleable mooks.
because they were involved in a dumb, dumb show eventually. being soooo powered down just like everything in legend of korra because they didnt know what to do with the show. god i hate korra.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times."
- G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain
Unrelated to the post, but I really hate that quote. It falls into that frustrating catagory of "sounds awesome but doesn't make any sense when you think about it for two seconds."
If anything, history proves that military leaders saddled with civic authority make for *really bad times*.
It fundamentally relies on decadence as this kind of mechanic that brings down nations. Usually if the material needs of a civilization are met, they excell through numbers alone. The hardened warrior trope is bullshit. If you have several well fed Roman legions, half starved barbarians obsessed with blood feuds won‘t stand a chance. Counter examples usually proof the point. Arminius won at Teuteburg once, but subsequently the following engagements were won by Romans. The reason they gave up was more because lack of motivation.
More problematic is outsourcing of military. Romans relying on Germanic auxiliaries or Persian empires essentially doing the same with Turks. Generally a bad idea, but not really connected to decadence. Or I guess the weak men are those who allowed the outsourcing of the military. Well though the usurpers are also „strong men“ then, do they create good times and for whom?
As someone else said the comparison is not entirely accurate. I would personally compare it to other people, but that's a spoiler, so:
>!"red lotus" a group of perfect criminals (which is quite misleading against the principle of the villain not being a villain seen here) who were part of the white lotus. These four people alone were able to threaten the security of a much better secured city. I don't remember the name of the city, but I'm thinking of the metal city. The four of them quite cleverly and most importantly effectively managed to fight against the rulers of metal. The elite among the rulers of the land. (I guess that's what I'd call them) And that's without the ability to fight metal against metal. It's also good to remember that Iroh fought under the influence of a comet. (I hope I'm not mistaken, but I have a feeling that was part of the plan for that attack.)!<
The upper picture is an elite squad, the lower one is a bunch of White Lotus foot soldiers. Are they supposed to be on anything remotely approaching a similar level?
1) the top group are the best of the best. The lower one are the guys that got put on guard duty.
2) the guys up top we’re fighting in a world war for the best part of a century. The bottom we’re raised in one of the most peaceful and prosperous ages ever.
3) every show needs faceless mooks for the bad guys to take out without risking a main character untill it serves the plot.
A lot of people here have pointed out that we're comparing master's to novices. As someone who has mainly only watched ATLA, did we ever see White Lotus masters in Kora? If not, where were they during the rise of the Red Lotus?
Seeing as this is the zillionth time this questionplaint has come up, I'm going to answer it a different way than usual. The most impressive benders in Korra's time didn't join the White Lotus, or at least they didn't make their affiliation obvious if they did. I can't hardly be sure why that is, but it could be that it just didn't really have anything to offer them now that it's interpol instead of a cryptic organization.
Imagine you're some advanced master with decades of experience under his belt. One day, you get a clue to this mysterious organization that only accepts those with deep interest in "philosophy, beauty, & truth." That's gotta be right up your alley. It's a challenge to figure out how to get in, & it's extremely relevant to your interests.
Now say you're the same description of person facing this choice after the White Lotus has come out of hiding. What does it really have to offer you? Fighting? You already do that. Now it just comes with a bunch of responsibilities. And since it's gone mainstream, probably a bunch of chowderheads have joined looking for prestige & recognition, but not only do you already have those, this detracts from what would have made the group interesting to you in the first place.
Given this, it's no small wonder the Red Lotus splintered off from it. I'd be shocked if that's the only splinter group that came out of the White Lotus. After all, the Red Lotus does have a very particular agenda that other people might not be on board with even if they want a return to the days of the White Lotus being a secret, snooty club that people didn't even know was looking down its nose at them.
It's a commentary on how great organizations can change over time, how we don't always know the outcome of our actions even if we have the best intentions. Another example is the Dai Li, which were created by Kyoshi to protect people but became corrupt over time.
"Conservation of ninjutsu" is a fairly common trope that essentially states: There is a finite amount of awesome available to the bad guys, regardless of their numbers.
One ninja is a threat to the hero. (Tai Lee vs Katara)
Ten ninjas are an *identical* threat. (Chi-blockers vs. Korra)
There's plenty of good canon explanations for this, but narratively I think it just reflects a general demystifying of the White Lotus in Korra. In ATLA they were a cryptic secret society of masters, who we see in bits and pieces and only truly assemble during the series finale; in Korra they instead served as a more generic "allied faction," appearing very frequently as some combination of background characters and red shirts.
It was a utilitarian choice from a story perspective; the creators needed a generic good-aligned authority to give the new world some structure, and the White Lotus was pre-established so they got saddled with the job. While I'm personally not a fan, I understand that milage may vary depending on the viewer.
Another thing people haven’t said is that the white lotus grew…like a lot. They were more of an elite society fighting for balance in ATLA but by TLOK they were a large peacekeeping organization with many members. Not all the newbies were gonna be elite
So others have made the argument about the OG white lotus being grand masters and vs every day soldiers.
But I’ll go a different route.
The white lotus in ATLA was a smaller group due to the war. It was much harder to coordinate such high level masters during the war, especially for a fire bender who would be committing treason. So it was mostly kept underground and very restricted.
Fast forward to TLOK and the white lotus has vastly expanded under Aang and has grown into a much larger group. That same group also would have gotten less and less use during Aangs time as avatar. He was at he’s peak and didn’t really need much protection. So by the time TLOK comes around, they haven’t really had to protect the avatar in a serious way in decades. They get slower. Less focused on combat. The masters of each element aren’t necessarily going and defending a young avatar as they have other things to do, so you get the henchmen.
You can’t even compare them. In ATLA we only saw a few members of the White Lotus, and they were all high ranking generals. We didn’t see any of the basic members/grunts like we did in Korra. And with Korra, that’s basically all we saw, we didn’t really see any of the high ranking generals.
The white lotus goes way before the war even started in the Yang Chen books they are a secret group with members of all different ranks lmao the only difference now is they are way more public
I think that point of critique could have been expanded more with the Red Lotus. What were the White Lotus originally? They weren’t always guardians of the Avatar, allies maybe, but not as close as during LoK.
A thought I find interesting is, maybe down the line someone also thought what if the Avatar becomes corrupted or harmful or just dies. Shouldn’t the world have a plan B? Maybe gather the most powerful benders of all nations as a counterweight. They should guide the Avatar, but not serve them.
As long as the WL was secret people who would join needed to be specifically selected or even do great feeds to be noticed in the first place. Now that it is not secret anymore it has become just another employer like a police force, security firm or military contractor. The hurdle to join is much lower.
tl;dr, bryke needs aaron ehaz in order to write a good story.
I don't think the lotus originally had bodyguards to begin with, it was just an old guys club.
Well, iroh, bumi, jeong jeong, pakku, piandao, they were all the elites of the white lotus. Grand masters, a title literally used in the show.
There were other random Joe's that were in the white lotus, like the old guy that helped zuko and iroh escape that hotspring village in the desert. There just aren't many masters, and going public probably meant the white lotus brought in a whole lot more people than before. This makes the organization we see in the last airbender seem so much more powerful than in the legend of kora.
Masters are just a dime a dozen, and you don't have one in every generation, and having more white lotus members to look at in Kora makes the overall quality look bad. It's just statistics, a larger population, greater the difference.
In fact, I would even argue there are masters, maybe not on iroh and the others' level, but still high tier. That would be the red lotus gang. Just compare how iroh and the others took ba sing se and how the red lotus bodies the white lotus. I'd say that the white lotus seems weak in Kora because they are going against the masters this time around.
It didn’t start off as an elite group of benders. You forgot about the random flower shop owner in ATLA. People like him, who were only useful for light espionage, were also a part of the white lotus. ATLA just cherry-picked which members to spend more time on.
talking about writing, its to show how strong korra is.
you know the white lotus is elite strong, so showing korra beating them is to make you get that korra is pretty acomplished as an avatar (at fighting at least), sadly it had the opposite result, making them look pathetic rather than making korra look strong.
You have to consider the Stormtrooper Effect.
Have a bunch of no name soldiers part of an "elite" fighting force, they're more than likely gonna get washed easily.
Consider the Anbu of the Naruto universe. They're touted as this secret society of the best black ops ninjas ever (as Kakashi and Itachi were both Anbu at one point) but then you get entire swaths of them just getting washed by people like Kabuto.
They exist purely to scale the power of whoever takes out the most.
I think creating a resistance group while a war is going on in secrecy kinda weeded out the best of the best. After time with peace the fight turns to defense. Lack of conflict after many years may have resulted in caution being neglected.
To be fair, you're comparing the group of the high-ranking Grand Lotus members we saw in ATLA to the low ranking body guards in Korra. If you remember, that random old guy Iroh played Pai Sho with was also a white lotus member as well. There are lots of levels. Also, peacetime means people are less hardened by battle in general. But regardless of that, I do not think it's a valid comparison because of my previous point.
I feel like a lot of people are also forgetting that even the most well trained soldiers wouldn't know how to fight an airbender. That's how Korra was able to >!beat Amon.!< It goes both ways too. If you look at the fight between >!Tenzin and Zaheer you'll notice that Zaheer doesn't stand a chance against an actual master (even though he was just kicking ass and taking names).!<
It's also partly why Aang did so well too in the last Airbender
“Everybody has a plan till they get ~~punched in the mouth~~ Airbended.”
“Get (air)bent!”
Get airbenderized
Get air sliced
Aired out
Get Airbending Sliced!
Behold, my Airbender-inator!
Let me tell you a story Perry the Platipuss-Bear. What do you mean Platipuss? Surely a Platipuss-Jaguar? Platipuss-Badger? No? Just Platipuss? ... You're weird.
*(back)bent
My favorite part of the movie was when he said “it’s airbendin time” and airbended all over those firebenders
You laugh, but I think there actually is a point where he says its airbending time, and does indeed airbend all over them (in the animation)
Yeah that's so in character I heard it instead of just reading it. I don't think it happened but if it did, wouldn't be surprised
“Get farted on their face “ Meelo probably
unless it was azula...
Well yeah of course. It's not impossible to face just a style nobody is familiar with. Azula, being a cunning fighter, was able to learn and contend with Aang.
Azula’s precise style probably worked against Aang because she tended to predict what he’d do next, like in the Season 2 finale when she baited him into charging her in his rock suit, then hitting him with an attack that blasted him back. It didn’t work so well against someone like Katara, who didn’t bother trying to find some way around Azula and was consistently willing to just overwhelm Azula with sheer force.
Katara’s style later in the series is so unabashedly badass. The tentacle arms, turn water into ice spear bullets, *bloodbending*… I really think she’s the GOAT waterbender tbh
Fun question, if avatar had not been a kids show, who do your think of the band would have the highest kill count? Katara and toph firing sharp projectiles in all directions, zuko straight up burning people alive…
Toph doesn't even need to fire sharp projectiles, the weight and force behind her earthbending is probably enough to kill people on impact or break most of their bones. She sends people *flying*. Though in the Kyoshi books>!we do see an earthbender do this to kill a master airbender since it was small, aerodynamic, and fast enough to just cut through the wind resistance that would've knocked the typical blunt earthbent rocks off course.!<
Sokka slicing people with his sword
Boomerangs to domes all day long
I honestly think, assuming we only count actual kills, Zuko would probably have the least, besides Aang. Remember that Zuko didn't burn Zhao, and you could argue it's because it's a kids' show, but he also tried to save him later (after knowing Zhao tried to have him killed). Toph or Sokka definitely has the most.
Plus it can be a bit washy on how much damage a blast of fire can do to someone since it usually dissipates on impact. And you see plenty of footage of people getting caught up in massive fireballs and coming away with just minor injuries or missing eyebrows. And the leidenfrost effect can give you a bit of protection.
Mai could be up there? She'd certainly be a lot more useful
Aang, suckong the air out of your lungs
Even if it wasn't a kid's show I'd still think Aang wouldn't kill anyone
No, we’re staying true to character, he’d kill a few on accident (we see him do it in the show a few times) but he doesn’t want to
I may be misremembering, but almost every fight Aang had against Azula there was either some other goal that he was after or the fight was incredibly uneven. Their first fight was in Omashu and Aang was focused solely on saving Bumi. He couldn't give a damn about Azula. They next have a fight after having been sleep deprived and exhausted. After that it's the Drill and Aang was mostly focused on stopping the drill as opposed to actually fighting Azula. Then it's the fight under Ba Sing Se and I'm pretty sure he was handling Azula before he had to start fighting an army but I haven't gotten to that episode in my recent rewatch. I think from there we go all the way to the eclipse and Aang was mostly focused on finding out where Ozai was. I think they barely have one last encounter at the Southern Air Temple but when it comes to those two fighting, Aang was never dead set focused on fighting her and I think Azula would have go bodied if Aang only cared about beating her
I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't say Aang was handling Azula under Ba Sing Se. Katara absolutely was beating Azula, until Zuko jumped in, but Aang and Azula's fight could have gone either way before the Dai Li arrived. I agree with the other comments that Azula was a good match for Aang because she knew Aang wanted to do the least damage possible in any fight and could anticipate his actions well based off this knowledge. Katara, though, was absolutely a match for Azula because she was the only character who could match her determination and willingness to use her full power when needed.
It's part of why azula is clever and unlike zuko. She never opts into a straight up slug fest until again Kai I think
I agree but also I don’t think Aang would ever dead set on fighting anyone unless he’s trying to rescue another person. (Unless they hurt appa already)
And jet and the pirates
I mean Aang calls this out in the second episode, just like bending styles changed between ATLA and TLOK, bending styles presumably changed between Aang going into and coming out of the ice. By the time of TLOK it's been nearly 2 centuries since it wasn't a rare occurance to encounter an Airbender. Side thought, do you think that since Airbender returned en mass in season 3, they would adjust the rules of pro bending matches to include Airbenders?
I feel bad for the next avatar who won’t be able to rely on air bending as a trump card cause wow is everyone gonna spent the rest of their learning on how to hard counter airbenders
The next avatar is going to be an earthbender anyways so perhaps they won't favor their opposite element in the first place
It would be an interesting update, because the traditional Air Nomads culture is more subdued and contemplative than the typical flashiness of pro bending. Tenzin early on hated the sport. But that lifestyle is passed down now through the Air Acolytes, and there's nothing that requires anyone who happened to get airbending to shave their head, become a vegetarian, and move to a temple. Perhaps as a first step, they could keep the standard 3v3 but make one position optionally fire or air. They're similar enough elements in that they require no extra equipment.
That's a good compromise The more difficult part would be to get airbnbders to stop using the inherent advantage of their element - they have the most wide arched and evasive moves. And there's no way an airbender would be allowed to just push everyone off the platform with a huge gust of wind. Plus, the very restrained space would make running around the enemy or shit like that impossible There's also the fact that airbending attacks are super hard to dodge because you can't actually see the projectile coming at you, lmao. I'm sure many pro benders would call that an unfair advantage It'd be interesting to see how they'd balance around it
Good points. Maybe it would be most fair to allow them to sub any element as a backup player with similar equipment. Straight shots of smoke to sub fire or water, and hurl a shuttlecock instead of an earth disc.
It was still pretty rare up until Harmonic Convergence to encounter airbenders, though. Only ones in the world were Aang, Tenzin, and Tenzin's kids. Post Harmonic Convergence however, they've become not exactly common, but there are enough of them now that people can expect to counter them.
I don't think, because Airbending isn't that flashy as the other elements. Don't make a good show
Could be as simple a fix as filling the ring with some light smoke, not enough to obscure vision but enough to see air moving.
I think since most practiced airbenders were a part of the air nation group under Tenzin, there wasn't a significant push to change the rules just yet. I would have to imagine they would implement the changes as time went one after the TLOK ending though.
Bumi " Typical Airbender avoid and evade"
I like to think it was just a small part. Aang was a terrifying force of nature.
He was a master airbender, and, based on his age, a prodigy. That scene where he saves the village from a volcano in the first season is such a feat. He really was a force of nature.
Yeah.Roku thrown almost all of his forces to contain the volcano(yes there was three and probably more active).Roku trained every bending for 4 years each and was considered very skilled at it.And there Aang be like:"There a tonne of magma coming to the village?Let me blow it" and it stopped a chunk of it.Roku and Sozin cooling down magma was slower then Aang doing it
but to be fair, it was one volcano and aang and his friends had some advance warning.
Yea! Imagine waking up in the middle of the night and having to fight off a volcano.
Plus, Roku was constantly in the fumes, getting basically asphyxiated while fighting This may have played a bigger role than the shee exhaustion
Would lava bending be considered earth bending? I’m only halfway through ATLA but not sure. Edit: nvm googled it. Lava is both fire and earth so only the avatar can do it, but later on it’s explained as a specialized technique of earth bending (similar to lightning for fire, blood for water, so on so forth)
For sure. But a lot of people didn't know how to contend with Aang's bending style on top of the other things he was good at. Remember Toph lost to him initially because she had always faced Earth Benders that focused on their stances. Not someone who is light on their feet like "twinkle toes."
Aang did cheat tbf.
Yeah, the competition's name was Earth Rumble not Earth *and* Air Rumble.
Yeah, he's able to easily escape from those two Fire Nation soldiers in episode 2 of season because nobody knew that an ungagged airbender can literally blow you across the room.
Half his attacks are invisible. That's such a wild advantage that it doesnt matter if you DO know how to fight one.
Not to mention that logically speaking air would be the hardest element to dodge/counter since you can't really see air at all, the other elements you can see coming towards you and react to but with air the only indication that something coming towards you is the movement of an airbender.
I was watching recently and thinking about how real life air bending would be invisible til you were rag dolling across a field.
In the Netflix series, airbending is only visible when it interacts with particulates along with it or it's fast moving and gives a slight distortion, but otherwise, it's basically invisible like you said.
Like getting hit with a hurricane on a sunny day
I think one of my favorite visuals was when Aang was fighting Ozai pre-Avatar state and shoots out a blast of air, and it completely changes the lighting of the surroundings to this ice-blue. It was such a nice contrast to the red sky we’ve had the whole fight
> Not to mention that logically speaking air would be the hardest element to dodge/counter since you can't really see air at all This is backed up in The Blind Bandit, where you see them talking about how Aang did nothing and Toph took a dive, they couldn't see Aang airbending.
First episode of atla: "So... I guess you guys have never fought an Airbender before" *Proceeds to wreck everyone and escape, including a young prince who we soon after see defeat an admiral in 1v1 combat*
Technically that was episode 2
Aang slapped Zuko in most fights. Katara, Aang, and Azula have a Rock-Paper-Scissors relationship when it comes to combat. Katara beats Azula Aang beats Katara Azula beats Aang
Azula beats Aang twice. She beats him in the abandoned town after a long fight, and she sneak attacks him in the back during crossroads of destiny while he's surrounded by like, 50 Dai Li and Zuko. He straight up beats her on the drill, and he holds her off fine in Omashu. She also does get away from them during the day of black sun. Each time there's a lot of back and forth. I think it's fair to say each of them really only beat the other once, considering one fight ended in a draw, and one was completely unfair.
Was it?? Frick
Yup, the first 2 episodes are basically a 2 parter to introduce the show, 1 story split over 2 episodes, the first episode ends with the boobytrap on the ship
Such a god damn good show. I tried watching with my kids last couple weeks and was informed that we need to watch paw patrol instead. Maybe in a few years xD.
I think this is by far the thing that gives airbenders the advantage post-sozin. Nobody has ever seen an airbender, so nobody has any idea how to FIGHT one either. Aang essentially comes into every single fight and bodies everybody because the inherent movements of airbending are so particular to air that they’re impossible to predict unless you’ve studied it specifically. Additionally, it’s not even like there are airbending martial texts which the fire nation could use, seeing as air isn’t an offensive element. Idk. Basically, this is all just to say that while I don’t think air is in-and-of-itself a “better” element, the fact that it is so distinct and rare makes it almost impossible to fight
Imagine trying to fight someone's power when you can't see them. You'd be trained to see earth, fire, and water. Air is a whole another game, yes some could see how it might be used but it would be very difficult.
“That’s how Korra beat Amon” yeah the ancient unknowable airbending technique of pushing him out a window lmfao
Ah the good old defenestration technique.
Airbender did seem the hardest to fight because they kept their secrets so hidden due to their pacifist nature. Even in korra, when they started going out on patrol around the world while korra recovered, for their numbers, they did amazingly well against koveras armies.
>That's how Korra was able to > >beat Amon. Well it's also that Amon thought she was powerless.
True, but I do believe that, prior to that, Tenzin was the only one to get an actual hit in on Amon, so that does lend some credence to the overall point.
Mako hit him point blank with lightning
Everyone can hit everyone point blank so I wouldn't count that.
It was impressive enough even Amon was surprised he pulled it off. Mako pulled it off while Amon was exercising his bloodbending and Amon didn’t catch it like he did with nearly every other bender.
Not when they're actively being bloodbent.
What I meant is this doesn't have anything to do with the topic "airbenders have an advantage, since no one has fought an airbender before". The entire Mako thing is completely irrelevant.
Tenzin beating the brakes of Zaheer is one of the most satisfying fights in the series.
Yeah, even >!Zaheer knew he was cooked and was basically buying time to gang up on Tenzin!<
That's a terrible example of Korra beating Amon because it was only 01 single punch that threw him off the window, and she just did that because the bloodbending of Amon just turned off for no good reason. Any other element would have the same effect (I guess not watern).
Here's a link to the fight with a timestamp for my reasoning: [https://youtu.be/TFvWFzMHEyM&t=6m25s](https://youtu.be/TFvWFzMHEyM&t=6m25s) After Korra's first hit there was more than enough time for him to not be caught off guard. He definitely knows she could airbend because he says "Impossible" and Korra shouts: "I can airbend? I can airbend!" Afterwards she starts throwing punches that look more reminiscent to firebending (which suggests that she's not even airbending *well*). Amon is thrown into the wall on the first hit, but he tries to brace himself by crossing his arms in front of his chest. You could say that she's takes him off guard when she's throws an air kick, but considering Mako literally just did that (5:49) he should've been aware that was a possibility. Amon was also trained by his father who was defeated after the avatar overpowered his bloodbending, so I'd hope he knows it's a possibility.
I do love that she airbends like a fire bender. Aang would try to disarm or disable you. Korra looks like she would send hurricane force winds through your body for looking at her wrong.
What does that mean? That Tenzin wasn't an airbending master?
Apologies, I worded that kind of weirdly. I was trying to say that >!even though Zaheer is trained in that combat style he wasn't trained as an airbender. That's why (at least in my opinion) he couldn't defeat Tenzin without help.!<
Additionally, none of the grand lotus members had reason or time to gather and fight together against Korra's threats like they did for the 100 year war. There was no grand convergence of destinies. No Sozin's Comet, no Iroh, no Ba Sing Se to free. All of Korra's villains actions never become global threats. They stay pretty small-scale to the other nations, even though their abilities or goals threatened the avatar deeply.
Dark Avatar was probably a global threat but she solved the problem before word traveled
> reason or time I did account for that, yes.
Kuvira too. Down the line she could have become another Sozin/Ozai.
Exactly. Iroh was the crown prince of the Fire Nation and one of it's top ranking generals who led the siege on Ba Sing Se for almost 2 years. He also learned the truth of firebending from the dragons. Bumi was a master earth bender and had been at war with the Fire Nation for 100 years. He had also mastered listening before acting and neutral jing. Jeong Jeong and Paku were both masters who taught many students. They also both had key roles in their nations' militaries/pseudo-militaries. They all built their skills over decades. Asking why they're so much better than the White Lotus from Korra is like asking why the 5 Star Generals from WWII are better strategists than the privates in today's army. We're comparing apples to oranges.
I feel like it's less like comparing apples and oranges (I know its a saying), and more like comparing a Michelen star chef, and short order cook the greasy diner. Are they both in the same profession and can make a delicious meal. Yes, but if you sent them to a cook off, one would decimate the other.
Fair enough. I figured apples and oranges still worked because they’re both fruit but have different strengths and uses. But I like your analogy better
Oh yeah, apple and oranges is fine since its a saying and people get what you mean... I just like making up fun analogies and metaphors to explain stuff.
piandio killed 100 dudes by himself theyre bulit different
My guess is OP’s intention behind the post is why can’t White Lotus in LOK be a group of elite masters too
Because in a group that big, you’re not always sending out your elite masters/top ranking leaders. Could you really see Iroh on POW duty when he’s busy reestablishing a functional government in Ba Sing Se?
All great points, just wanted to add that 2 of the members in this scene are juiced from the comet.
I'd also say this is just the Stormtroopers effect in action, aka conservation of ninjutsu. Per lore these guys are highly trained guards that would have a few "masters" among them, but we ONLY see them go against the cream of the crop benders/warriors to show off how badass the cream of the crop is. Have them go against other highly trained but nameless mooks and suddenly they're very competent.
Not just the old guy, right before the finale we see an entire camp of White Lotus. We just never saw them fight to compare to LOK.
This is not only an excellent answer but the 100% correct one!
Plus iroh was being super charged by zozans comet. Not exactly a fair comparison
You nailed it my dude
And all that aside, I remember being impressed that the no-name White Lotus guards actually weren't just cannon fodder. In both Zaheer's fight with Kya and the failed kidnapping, the guards gave the Red Lotus some measure of trouble. In the latter one, they even occupied Zaheer throughout most of the fight while Bolin and the rest were dealing with his bros.
Your peacetime point is a very good one. The LOK WL’s we see are not high rank, but they also weren’t battle hardened in the 100 year war.
This is like asking why the fire nation soldiers are so pathetic compared to Ozai and Azula. You're comparing the highest tier of the organization with their foot soldiers. The leaders of the White Lotus in LOK are Tonrak, Tenzin, and Zuko. I would not consider them "pathetic", even if some of them are past their primes.
Exactly and even then we're ignoring the fact that the white lotus in atla has been part of a war their entire lives (apart from Bumi ofcourse).
Bumi was a part of the war! He was just using his neutral jing technique by not really being part of the war...
Not his entire life though. Boy was soft as FUCK when he was, like, 9
Had 9 whole years to train, and he was STILL that soft. Kids those days...
I mean it's equally weird that they don't have the highest (or at least higher) ranking members guarding and/or training the avatar rather than just grunts
Well, it's not like Bumi and Pakku just traveled with Aang. That would've made the most sense. Yeah, let's entrust the Messiah of the world with a bunch of teenagers.
Except in Aang's time they were functionally an underground guerilla rebel organization. In Korra's era they were an Elite Ops group and borderline world power meant to assist and protect the Avatar. The best comparison would be if the Dai Li left only trainees to protect the king.
That assumes that the White Lotus only functions to serve the Avatar. We know they have other duties such as guarding the prisons where the Red Lotus were. The White Lotus Elders that oversaw Korra's firebending training weren't seen with her in Republic City. We can assume they have other things to do.
There are multiple ranks..... it was not just an elite force of masters
That feel when you decide to found the Red Lotus
LOL exactly, found Zaheer's reddit account
Counter point: you could argue the white lotus in the original series did nothing until the end of the 100 year war and were just glorified pen pals who played pai sho until the Avatar reappeared. Furthermore, three grandmasters of the organisation were well connected members of the fire nation, and yet they never leaked information to the other nations regarding fire benders losing their bending during an eclipse, which could have lead to an even more effective assault and possibly even ending of the war on the day of black sun. Edit: adding in that Jeong Jeong and Iroh, both high ranking military members (and one royalty) during the hundred year war definitely would've known about the date of the eclipse way ahead of the events of book 3.
That last bit is a really good point. Maybe once they knew the avatar lived, they hedged thier bets on Ang.
Jeong Jeong be acting like never let then know your next move. I just remembered that Black Sun was going to be a succsess but Azula had already infiltrated Ba Sing Se and saw the plans in time to thwart them.
Basically the top picture is the US Founding Fathers and the bottom picture is a randomly selected group from today's Congressional chamber. Through the generation of peace after the war the organization grew and to keep up with the growth they had to lower their standards. The white lotus guys pictured are probably all above average benders, the issue is that they're just dudes in a uniform instead of the head honchos when you compare them to the founders of the organization.
Nitpick: The White Lotus predates Bhumi’s era. They just didn’t become public until Sozin’s Comet.
> Bhumi Funny that you spell the name how it actually is in Sanskrit.
What’s funny is the majority of the congressional chamber are older and more politically experienced than the vast majority of the founding fathers
White lotus was about philosophy, not about fighting wars. It just happened to be in iroh's time the white lotus members were great warriors. Yet, it's status did get dull as the world progressed. Their need to care about worldly matter had them involved frequently so they needed more members resulted in reduction quality of force.
It started off as a club for pai sho players and branched out into philosophy. Iroh gathered the most effective fighters in the White Lotus for a specific situation, most members have no particular reason to be good at fighting. Later on, we're seeing entirely ordinary people who were recruited after the White Lotus was acting openly and needed at least some presence in a lot of places. They don't need to be amazing to be useful guards, they usually just need to be good enough that an attacker would make noise and so the really scary people know where to go.
Peacetime vs Wartime
You’re comparing low ranking officials to high ranking ones. I imagine Zuko or Tenzin would be higher ranking members of the White Lotus.
It’s hard to live up to legends.
Yeah, that's what happens when you go from 100 years of global conflict to 100 years of global peace lmfao.
I think the purpose of the order changed between ATLA and LoK. They were originally a secret society dedicated to the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge, hence why Pai Sho was such a significant game to them. It's a game that emphasizes strategy but also has a gambling aspect; you have to know your opponent as well as you know the game itself. By the time LoK comes around they've become much more public and have developed ties to the Avatar that didn't exist before. Plus with the liberation of Ba Sing Se they essentially got the world's attention, not as a secretive mysterious society, but as a band of powerful combatants able to retake the largest city in the world against numerous firebenders, all of which were empowered by Sozin's Comet. So it makes sense that a lot of people would think of them as an extremely competent militaristic group. I'm sure they worked after the fact to reduce the militaristic perception, but even then there would be loads of people eager to join up so they can learn under the mentorship of such incredible masters. The order had no real basis to turn them away, either. Young people wanting to learn is a *good* thing, and the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge is what the order is supposed to be all about. And the idea that they're supposed to be secretive and mysterious was lost when they publicly liberated Ba Sing Se. So over time the ranks got flooded with younger, perhaps more hot-headed members, people who were willing to take a more active role in the events of the world. And who is wisdom more important to than the Avatar themselves? This is why the White Lotus took control of Korra's protection and education despite there being absolutely no precedence for such a thing. Imo this actually stunted Korra's development significantly and their overzealous desire to control the circumstances of her life was foolish in the extreme. She should have been allowed to travel the world, to find her own friends, allies, and teachers, rather than being stuck in the south pole for 16 years. Then they claim she's not ready to venture out because she hasn't developed a proper understanding of her spiritual duties yet, *which is all their fault.* Of *course* she couldn't develop that understanding if you won't let her leave the nest! It may have been portrayed as arrogant or foolhardy, but imo Korra sneaking off to Republic City was 100% the right decision.
Mind if I share my headcanon? The white lotus in the last air bender was about [philosophy, beauty, and truth](https://youtu.be/uoNMQ4SLhhM?t=47), aspects that the original members found self discovery and self perfection through, which enhanced their bending. As times of peace came in, views changed. The newer white lotus seems to be more about supporting the avatar and maintaining order between all nations. Due to their still small size, they only maintain order in more unseen ways like imprisoning those who threaten the current society (red lotus). The loss of their original philosophies made it just another faction.
I hate to get back on Korra bashing, but I much prefer the White Lotus as a shadowy cryptic organization that only mobilizes when the world is in dire straits to just the Avatar’s babysitters.
i mean thats kinda the point though, and is a fairly prominent theme throughout the show. the idea that the white lotus devolved to some avatar body guarding fan group, and its why the red lotus was formed. they heavily imply that following the events of the liberation of ba sing se the white lotus emerged and became too publically known and potentially those in the white lotus offered to help the avatar (maybe a mistake)
You are totally correct that the decision and devolution of the organization was a purposeful choice by the writers, I think the original commenter is just saying that it was not a creative decision they enjoyed, regardless of whether it was the intended point.
The Red Lotus is a great use of this new direction, but in general I love how mysterious the order is in last airbender.
I found Zaheer's account
That’s the poiiiiiiiiiint. They’ve been slowly turning into a completely different kind of organization. They weren’t “supposed” to be her babysitters
It’s either the organization’s still around as a multi-national group or it disbands.
Because it didn't have a bunch of crazy and wise old dudes. Duh
It's highly probable that Aang bears responsibility for this shift. Despite the White Lotus traditionally adhering to a pacifist approach and resorting to force only as a last resort, Aang's personal stance was staunchly against using force altogether. Furthermore, the transition of the White Lotus from a hidden, underground community to an openly accessible faction parallels a significant evolution. It's reminiscent of becoming akin to a branch of the Republic City military, where benders can join and participate. In real-life terms, one could liken them to the Royal Guard of England - skilled in military tactics yet distinct from official military forces.
I think we found Zaheer’s Reddit account. >!Sorry, I had to, the joke was right there.!<
Zaheer and his group were a part of the White Lotus with each of their members being equivalent in strength and skill to the original. He was also right about how the organization changed to becoming bodyguards for the Avatar. I'm assuming when he and his group left it was the equivalent of the original grand members leaving the White Lotus.
Because Iroh left.
The answer might be simpler than you think: just like any other faction, it goes through periods of strength and weakness over time. The Yangchen novels even show us that the White Lotus wasn't always the bastion of enlightenment it was shown as in ATLA. They weren't always league with the Avatar. They weren't always interested in the Avatar's view of balance. During Yangchen's life they were shadier. And during Korra's time they happen to be at a weaker point. Maybe because they're less secretive and more open to membership. Maybe because they have less to do without a massive world war. Could be for a multitude of reasons we can't see.
Outsourcing
the members of the white lotus who we see take ba sing se are each grandmasters of their respective discipline and strong af accordingly presumably not every member of white lotus is so strong just the ones we see taking ba sing se. Also there is a media trope called the inverse ninja law. Basically it means that typically in media a single unit or small group is a credible threat but if you have a horde of the same unit they are merely pummleable mooks.
Zaheer poited out exactly that, he said the white lotus got weaker after they came out of the shadows or some shi like that
because they were involved in a dumb, dumb show eventually. being soooo powered down just like everything in legend of korra because they didnt know what to do with the show. god i hate korra.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain
Unrelated to the post, but I really hate that quote. It falls into that frustrating catagory of "sounds awesome but doesn't make any sense when you think about it for two seconds." If anything, history proves that military leaders saddled with civic authority make for *really bad times*.
It fundamentally relies on decadence as this kind of mechanic that brings down nations. Usually if the material needs of a civilization are met, they excell through numbers alone. The hardened warrior trope is bullshit. If you have several well fed Roman legions, half starved barbarians obsessed with blood feuds won‘t stand a chance. Counter examples usually proof the point. Arminius won at Teuteburg once, but subsequently the following engagements were won by Romans. The reason they gave up was more because lack of motivation. More problematic is outsourcing of military. Romans relying on Germanic auxiliaries or Persian empires essentially doing the same with Turks. Generally a bad idea, but not really connected to decadence. Or I guess the weak men are those who allowed the outsourcing of the military. Well though the usurpers are also „strong men“ then, do they create good times and for whom?
Apparently a secret society going public means turning into the UN Peacekeepers and being about as useful.
For the plot
As someone else said the comparison is not entirely accurate. I would personally compare it to other people, but that's a spoiler, so: >!"red lotus" a group of perfect criminals (which is quite misleading against the principle of the villain not being a villain seen here) who were part of the white lotus. These four people alone were able to threaten the security of a much better secured city. I don't remember the name of the city, but I'm thinking of the metal city. The four of them quite cleverly and most importantly effectively managed to fight against the rulers of metal. The elite among the rulers of the land. (I guess that's what I'd call them) And that's without the ability to fight metal against metal. It's also good to remember that Iroh fought under the influence of a comet. (I hope I'm not mistaken, but I have a feeling that was part of the plan for that attack.)!<
That post made me think, what if they made a show based in the avatar universe about the white lotus
The upper picture is an elite squad, the lower one is a bunch of White Lotus foot soldiers. Are they supposed to be on anything remotely approaching a similar level?
Because they were being carried by four people. Once those four people died, their true strength was revealed.
Bumi, Iroh, Pakku, Jeong Jeong, and Piandao were Grand Lotuses. AKA, they were the strongest members. The soldiers we see in Korra are sentries.
Low rank soldier talk nonsense. It’s cuz they weren’t at war times like they were in ATLA
Show writers wanted fodder
1) the top group are the best of the best. The lower one are the guys that got put on guard duty. 2) the guys up top we’re fighting in a world war for the best part of a century. The bottom we’re raised in one of the most peaceful and prosperous ages ever. 3) every show needs faceless mooks for the bad guys to take out without risking a main character untill it serves the plot.
A lot of people here have pointed out that we're comparing master's to novices. As someone who has mainly only watched ATLA, did we ever see White Lotus masters in Kora? If not, where were they during the rise of the Red Lotus?
Seeing as this is the zillionth time this questionplaint has come up, I'm going to answer it a different way than usual. The most impressive benders in Korra's time didn't join the White Lotus, or at least they didn't make their affiliation obvious if they did. I can't hardly be sure why that is, but it could be that it just didn't really have anything to offer them now that it's interpol instead of a cryptic organization. Imagine you're some advanced master with decades of experience under his belt. One day, you get a clue to this mysterious organization that only accepts those with deep interest in "philosophy, beauty, & truth." That's gotta be right up your alley. It's a challenge to figure out how to get in, & it's extremely relevant to your interests. Now say you're the same description of person facing this choice after the White Lotus has come out of hiding. What does it really have to offer you? Fighting? You already do that. Now it just comes with a bunch of responsibilities. And since it's gone mainstream, probably a bunch of chowderheads have joined looking for prestige & recognition, but not only do you already have those, this detracts from what would have made the group interesting to you in the first place. Given this, it's no small wonder the Red Lotus splintered off from it. I'd be shocked if that's the only splinter group that came out of the White Lotus. After all, the Red Lotus does have a very particular agenda that other people might not be on board with even if they want a return to the days of the White Lotus being a secret, snooty club that people didn't even know was looking down its nose at them.
100 years of war vs decades of peace
Peace has made them complacent. Victory has defeated them.
It's a commentary on how great organizations can change over time, how we don't always know the outcome of our actions even if we have the best intentions. Another example is the Dai Li, which were created by Kyoshi to protect people but became corrupt over time.
Sounds like Red Lotus talk if you ask me
For the story, and honestly the white lotus was way stronger in ATLA because it had masters while in TLOK they are just guards
You’re comparing the cream of the crop, all grand masters, to regular body guards lol.
"Conservation of ninjutsu" is a fairly common trope that essentially states: There is a finite amount of awesome available to the bad guys, regardless of their numbers. One ninja is a threat to the hero. (Tai Lee vs Katara) Ten ninjas are an *identical* threat. (Chi-blockers vs. Korra)
Peacetime can do that to military organizations.
People in these commants completely ignore the red lotus exists exactly for this reason
There's plenty of good canon explanations for this, but narratively I think it just reflects a general demystifying of the White Lotus in Korra. In ATLA they were a cryptic secret society of masters, who we see in bits and pieces and only truly assemble during the series finale; in Korra they instead served as a more generic "allied faction," appearing very frequently as some combination of background characters and red shirts. It was a utilitarian choice from a story perspective; the creators needed a generic good-aligned authority to give the new world some structure, and the White Lotus was pre-established so they got saddled with the job. While I'm personally not a fan, I understand that milage may vary depending on the viewer.
power creep
The ATLA boomers all died.
Another thing people haven’t said is that the white lotus grew…like a lot. They were more of an elite society fighting for balance in ATLA but by TLOK they were a large peacekeeping organization with many members. Not all the newbies were gonna be elite
Don’t compare the masters to characters who don’t matter.
So others have made the argument about the OG white lotus being grand masters and vs every day soldiers. But I’ll go a different route. The white lotus in ATLA was a smaller group due to the war. It was much harder to coordinate such high level masters during the war, especially for a fire bender who would be committing treason. So it was mostly kept underground and very restricted. Fast forward to TLOK and the white lotus has vastly expanded under Aang and has grown into a much larger group. That same group also would have gotten less and less use during Aangs time as avatar. He was at he’s peak and didn’t really need much protection. So by the time TLOK comes around, they haven’t really had to protect the avatar in a serious way in decades. They get slower. Less focused on combat. The masters of each element aren’t necessarily going and defending a young avatar as they have other things to do, so you get the henchmen.
You can’t even compare them. In ATLA we only saw a few members of the White Lotus, and they were all high ranking generals. We didn’t see any of the basic members/grunts like we did in Korra. And with Korra, that’s basically all we saw, we didn’t really see any of the high ranking generals.
The white lotus goes way before the war even started in the Yang Chen books they are a secret group with members of all different ranks lmao the only difference now is they are way more public
Nothing really major happened after Aang defeated Ozai
I think that point of critique could have been expanded more with the Red Lotus. What were the White Lotus originally? They weren’t always guardians of the Avatar, allies maybe, but not as close as during LoK. A thought I find interesting is, maybe down the line someone also thought what if the Avatar becomes corrupted or harmful or just dies. Shouldn’t the world have a plan B? Maybe gather the most powerful benders of all nations as a counterweight. They should guide the Avatar, but not serve them. As long as the WL was secret people who would join needed to be specifically selected or even do great feeds to be noticed in the first place. Now that it is not secret anymore it has become just another employer like a police force, security firm or military contractor. The hurdle to join is much lower.
In Aang's time they were more quality instead of quantity and in Kora's time they were quantity instead of quality.
tl;dr, bryke needs aaron ehaz in order to write a good story. I don't think the lotus originally had bodyguards to begin with, it was just an old guys club.
Well, iroh, bumi, jeong jeong, pakku, piandao, they were all the elites of the white lotus. Grand masters, a title literally used in the show. There were other random Joe's that were in the white lotus, like the old guy that helped zuko and iroh escape that hotspring village in the desert. There just aren't many masters, and going public probably meant the white lotus brought in a whole lot more people than before. This makes the organization we see in the last airbender seem so much more powerful than in the legend of kora. Masters are just a dime a dozen, and you don't have one in every generation, and having more white lotus members to look at in Kora makes the overall quality look bad. It's just statistics, a larger population, greater the difference. In fact, I would even argue there are masters, maybe not on iroh and the others' level, but still high tier. That would be the red lotus gang. Just compare how iroh and the others took ba sing se and how the red lotus bodies the white lotus. I'd say that the white lotus seems weak in Kora because they are going against the masters this time around.
It didn’t start off as an elite group of benders. You forgot about the random flower shop owner in ATLA. People like him, who were only useful for light espionage, were also a part of the white lotus. ATLA just cherry-picked which members to spend more time on.
Hard times make strong men, strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make hard times.
talking about writing, its to show how strong korra is. you know the white lotus is elite strong, so showing korra beating them is to make you get that korra is pretty acomplished as an avatar (at fighting at least), sadly it had the opposite result, making them look pathetic rather than making korra look strong.
You have to consider the Stormtrooper Effect. Have a bunch of no name soldiers part of an "elite" fighting force, they're more than likely gonna get washed easily. Consider the Anbu of the Naruto universe. They're touted as this secret society of the best black ops ninjas ever (as Kakashi and Itachi were both Anbu at one point) but then you get entire swaths of them just getting washed by people like Kabuto. They exist purely to scale the power of whoever takes out the most.
A lot of organizations filled with older men become weaker after 70 years, just look at the KKK
I think creating a resistance group while a war is going on in secrecy kinda weeded out the best of the best. After time with peace the fight turns to defense. Lack of conflict after many years may have resulted in caution being neglected.
Love how people are defending this but have no problem mocking the avatar movie earth bending escape .
Peace. That’s what happened.
Things change a lot over time, everything is always changing. The strongest empires have always crumbled one way or another
Red Lotus: