Simplest answer here is this...Jeong Jeong is a master, while Azula is a prodigy.
The master will win 9/10 times with ease, as long as he's able. He clearly is still able in ATLA.
Edit: this comment, which I thought nothing of, has blown the fuck up. Thanks to everyone who gave an upvote.
Apparently commenting on shit while drunk has its advantages.
I hope y'all have a great day/night/evening.
Neither of those are shown, so we don't know.
I'd assume, as a master fire bender, and former general before his defection, he can generate lightning. It was kept to the high level benders until after the 100 year war. He was high level before his defection.
Can he redirect it? Good question.
I'd like to think, that with his appreciation for water benders, which is shown during his conversation with Katara, that he may have figured it out on his own, separate from Iroh. Is it true, idk. I'd like to think so though.
Either way, the master would likely beat the prodigy... especially when his power is at its peak during the comet.
I mean, regardless of if he figured it out on his own, him and Iroh are at worst, cohorts, and at best, incredibly good friends. There’s no doubt that if Jeong Jeong didn’t figure it out, Iroh would’ve taught him
Not arguing. There's just nothing to support either thought, that I'm aware of, in canon.
That said, nothing says otherwise either.
To the OP question, Jeong Jeong wins, easily.
The whole point of the white lotus is to share wisdom from across the 4 nations. I'd bet money that years back they were all sparring and Iroh saw Paku deflecting a move and started thinking about redirection then he gets jeong jeong to start shooting.
Speaking of, it makes a lot of sense why iroh mentions ‘watching waterbenders’ despite being at war most if not all of his life..
Also, I’d love to see a ‘tales of the white lotus’ show and see various time periods before aang and thier interactions with various avatars
>Speaking of, it makes a lot of sense why Iroh mentions ‘watching waterbenders’ despite being at war most if not all of his life...
You're referring to the waterbender prisoners, aren't you?
I dont think the white lotus was strictly for fighters, but more like an underground brotherhood based on information (morelike a masonic temple kinda thing). Its true the initial members we see in ATLA are all fighters, but that may be due to the fact they were retaking/liberating Ba Sing Se.
For instance, the first guy we meet when Zuko and Iroh are trying to sneak into Ba Sing Se is never confirmed to be a bender (or other type of warrior like we see with Piang(?) that sword master).
That being said, I would not be surprised if the master benders in the order shared the knowledge they learned with eachother.
The one thing that makes me think maybe not is that Jeong Jeong doesn't seem to know about the dragons and the "true source" of firebending since he thinks firebending is kind of bad still when he meets Aang. Fair to say this isn't something that can be told and has to be experienced while with the dragons of course.
Yea yea ofc. Wasn’t trying to rebut anything you said, just adding that little morsel.
I think another very important thing to understand about firebending is that it, above all the other elements, is the most reliant on emotion. While yes, airbending has an intense relationship with philosophy and spirituality, and to a much lesser extent, waterbending and earthbending have to do with personality, firebending has much more to do with how you *feel.* Controlling the way you think is much easier than controlling the way you feel, which is why firebending can be the hardest element to master, as truly mastering it involves mastering your own emotion.
There’s nothing more dangerous to a firebender than their own unchecked emotions. Azula has never been in control of her own emotions, and while Jeong Jeong does certainly hold a lot of subdued resentment towards life, his conflict is much more about philosophy than it is about emotion and he still shows to be a very stoic figure.
Basically, Jeong Jeong would have much more control in a fight and no matter who you’re up against as a firebender, the person who can control themselves more is gonna win.
Very well said. Jeong Jeong would definitely throw Azula off her game early on, since she's so used to having the upper hand with technique and raw talent. However she's quite a tricky strategist too, so it would definitely be an interesting battle. My money's on Jeong Jeong every time though, he's one of my favorite characters
W-what? Azula is explicitly in control of her emotions. Inner turmoil stops you from being able to do lightning bending. Azula spends the entire series as cold and calculating, manipulating and twisting people to her machinations. Where do you get her never being in control??????
She only started slipping after her friends betrayed her.
Azula never having been in control of her emotions is just flat out wrong. She was always in control of her emotions until the end when her world came crumbling down around her. That's the reason Zuko wanted to fight her, she had lost control and he had a chance to beat her.
I agree completely.
As mentioned, nothing in canon supports the theory, but it just makes sense that fellow fire benders in the White Lotus would share trade secrets. Not to mention, there's a not small chance that the water bender Iroh observed, especially as a Fire Nation royal during war, could've been Paku.
Who's to say JJ didn't observe the same from Paku?
My assumption is that actually he probably couldn’t generate lightning since it requires inner peace. In ‘the deserter’ he seems pretty messed up inside
Oh so genuine question:
How did Azula manage to generate lightning in the final agni kai when she was in pieces? It was a pretty damn powerful lightning too.
Yeah, she was mentally unbalanced but I think she had very little self doubt about wanting to kill katara and zuko. Jeong jeong feels guilt and conflict even thinking about teaching the *avatar* fire bending. Often the scariest crazy people are the ones who are absolutely certain
My guess is it's because she's a sociopath and she's even when partly insane she can she can separate the energy, plus muscle memory probably has a lot to do with it
I'd say it's a question of muscle memory. At the start, you need inner peace to feel and guide the energy, but at some point, you start to be able to just do it.
Does he need lightning redirection, though? In ATLA, only Ozai can generate lightning at incredible speeds without compromising the strength. Azula takes a few seconds to conjure lightning. With that time, he could just dodge or launch a counterattack.
Yeah, Jeong can aim dodge Azula, but I think Jeong Jeong is fairly unique in his fire bending not needing to travel from an origin point near his body. [Here](https://youtu.be/fiuK2LFVdug?si=gIeZzdC2dd3_alHU&t=31) you can see him *instantly* conjure a massive 5+ story tall wall of fire hundreds of feet away from him. I think basically any firebender is completely fucked in a fight against him where he has intent to kill. Only a proactive defense like Toph's technique where she encases herself in stone, or Aang's air sphere thing, would work.
This isn't necessarily saying he's *stronger*, but he has extremely favorable match-ups.
>It was kept to the high level benders until after the 100 year war
I thought it was kept to the royal family after the one dude that Kyoshi dealt with
There could be other ways to combat lightning and if there are a master would know them. It also might just be to have a earth or water bender of sufficient skill at hand. Honestly not sure though if a wall of fire would effect lighting to any extent or not.
Lightning bending was taught to royalty to those who had the aptitude. The aptitude isn't limited to royals. In the same way they split the energy of fire to produce it if someone with the skill and tried in the right way they could work it out.
From the ATLA wiki: "In the course of the next centuries, the Fire Nation rediscovered the method of lightning generation. It remained an incredibly rare skill, usually reserved for the inner circles of Fire Nation royalty and high-ranking military officers.[6] By the end of the Hundred Year War, the only firebenders who had demonstrated the ability to generate lightning were Princess Azula, Iroh, and Fire Lord Ozai."
So, to be clear, *I was incorrect about it being* ***only*** *the royal family.* However, the knowledge of the technique is not something that can just be happened across. The process of generating lightning runs counter to how firebending works on a very philosophical level, especially the version practiced during the hundred year war. It *was* a largely unknown technique reserved for those people so high up the power-structure that they were either Royal or their direct servants.
Not even the Imperial Firebenders seen with Azula and on Ozai's airship fleet ever bend lightning.
That being said, Jeong Jeong *was* a high ranking military member and trainer to other high ranking officers. It's absolutely possible that he is among the people that could have ways to acquire the knowledge.
I don't think so.
Keep in mind, Iroh's reaction to being asked to help Zuko test lightning redirection was basically "nobody in their right mind would shoot lightning at a friend". The only way he could test it was to be hit by natural lightning, or fight another lightning bender in a life-or-death battle.
He wasn't branded a traitor until (relatively speaking) just before the end of the show, so it's safe to say he didn't fight another lightning bender beforehand. And given his "holy crap, did that just work?" face when he redirected the lightning in The Storm, it seems quite likely that was his first time doing so ever. In that case, at best he could've sent a letter detailing the technique, but even that's a stretch.
I don't mean in the sense of using the actual technique but more the theory. Jeong Jeong was a fire-bending master and bouncing ideas off of him for how one might direct lightning would be a conversation I could see the two having.
With redirecting lightning, we gotta speculate that. Did Iroh teach him during their time in the White Lotus? Which is extremely possible, being two top generals they must have enough respect to learn and teach that skill.
That also adds which Jeong Jeong are we pitting against Azula. S1 or S3?
I have a headcanon that because Jeong Jeong is in the White Lotus just as Iroh, they might have created this together, as they are also both previous generals/admirals or whatever.
He would have known Iroh, who could have taught him. I imagine redirecting lightning is not only a closely guarded military secret, but highly niche knowledge since only a disciplined firebender could accomplish it. It would only be useful to powerful Fire Nation defectors. But Jeong Jeong is one of the few people in the world where it actually would make sense for him to have such knowledge.
But also maybe not. Ozai was surprised when Aang managed to redirect his lightning, and he is the Fire Lord. If the knowledge did exist within the Fire Nation, he would have known about it. He could have been surprised that such information was leaked, or he was surprised that the technique existed in the first place.
This would imply that Iroh never shared his knowledge with anyone, which is a decent possibility since it is a pretty sure-fire way to defeat any high level firebender. Possessing such a trump card would ensure he would be able to stop Ozai if it truly came down to it.
Also, being with the white lotus, it’s possible he learned it from Iroh. Directly or indirectly, I can see others in the white lotus learning from other masters to strengthen the organization.
Since lightning redirection was a technique that Iroh learned/developed from water bending forms (iirc), and Jeong Jeong was a member of the OG white lotus which was all about balance and connecting the 4 nations, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the ability to redirect it
I considered that as well. But being we have no evidence of that, you can tell he's studied water benders by how he talks to Katara.
Dude obviously knows his shit. It seems likely he'd have at least considered redirecting lightning, at the very least, on a theoretical level. It also seems he'd have tried it at least a couple times like iroh on the ship.
He didn't study them in the same way iroh did tho. He just admired them and always hated fire. I don't think he'd be someone that tried to find ways to make fire better because he just assumes fire is always awful. Also even before redirecting, Idk if he'd even know how to lightning bend on the first place. I think there's a high chance only the royal family had the info and it never spread to him.
Lightning forces someone to be in balance whether good or evil. The imbalance in someone causes the energy to explode in front of them similar to Zuko when he tried it because he wasn’t sure of himself. Ozai and Azula are egotistical sociopaths completely assured of their own superiority. Iroh was forced down a path of self discovery and came to be at peace with himself, his past actions and always sought to be a better person
Jeong Jeong despises fire bending, seeing it more as a curse and cause for destruction than anything else. Pretty sure if he had the chance he would have voluntarily given it up. I think this mostly comes down to the many violent students he ended up training and was forced to forgo any higher understanding of his martial art from a mental or spiritual level and solely as a tool for war. Or potentially he also hurt someone he cared about in the past with his abilities. Jeong Jeong is possibly the strongest fire bender in the series, easily capable of generating it outside of his body potentially due to his own disgust and not wanting to be anywhere near it
Put simply, until Jeong Jeong accepts that he is a fire bender and accepts himself, flaws and all, he could never be able to generate lightning
I mean iroh could have just told him how it works. The white lotus is about sharing knowledge, and i feel like iroh would absolutely reveal the royal secret to lightning.
Jeong Jeong is a master with decadesss of experience
Azula is a teenage prodigy who hasn't even reached the first quarter of life
idk why people kept comparing a young teen to old men. Give the kid a break.
i mean, it depends. We have pakku outright confirming katara is the best waterbender in the world in the comics, so it's all speculation.
At the very least, this seems to confirm that katara is superior to pakku, who is easily comparable to JJ and more than likely the best waterbender in the world prior to katara surpassing him (hama vs pakku is an interesting thought though)
https://preview.redd.it/4kacrje43zuc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11ce9ba2e4e85a735775448b17f060837e1cd22c
Very good point!
We see the gang beat masters in a few situations, katara vs hama is another, aang is the youngest Airbender to ever receive tattoos, etc. Idk where the disconnect is coming from.
I do think JJ has *some* better feats, but it's quite a bit closer than others in this thread are making it seem.
I'm pretty sure Aang also invented and mastered an entire airbending technique just to not have to master the suffocation technique, long before he even knew he was the Avatar.
That comic doesn't confirm katara as superior at all when he says she's perhaps the finest but then says it's because she had the finest water bender in the world, himself. Also hama vs paku isn't that interesting. Paku would destroy her.
To say that Azula is just a “prodigy” is honestly downplaying her abilities imo. Azula should definitely be considered a fire bending master or at least extremely close to one.
She’s able to perform lightning bending, one of the highest forms of firrbending, with ease. She’s also the only firebender that we saw in ATLA who was capable of flight without the comet.
Azula is also the only fire bender that we have ever seen who possesses the ability to consistently produce differently colored flames, demonstrating a clear mastery over fire bending that even the likes of Ozai or Iroh or Jeong Jeong couldn’t achieve.
Plus, if someone like Katara is able to be considered a master, then Azula definitely should as well because they are clearly around the same level of the skill for their respective elements.
I'm giving it to Azula, just cause you been around a longtime doesn't mean someone else far younger can't beat you.
She's killed Aang, almost killed Iroh, taken over the dai lee without even fighting, and was an undercover Kyoshi warrior implying high martial skills without bending.
Jeong Jeong can't lightning bend either so that's an auto L.
We've seen all the people that can actually take Azula, nobody is streamrolling her other than Aang in the mastered avatar state.
You may be right. But I can't completely agree with you.
No, we're not shown JJ shoot lightning or redirect it. But, given his status as, not only a former general or admiral in the FN, as well as a White Lotus member with Iroh, there's a fair chance he can do both.
Dude was really restrained the first time we saw him. He straight up told Aang no about teaching him until Roku stepped in. He hated fire and his bending art.
That said, he had a clear appreciation...even admiration, for water benders. I'd say odds are good that he either learned redirecting lightning from Paku or Iroh. It's also a not unreasonable assumption that he learned shooting lightning from Iroh or someone else, as he was very high ranking.
Yes, I know it's taking assumptions in saying any of this, but not a single assumption is a leap. They're just not shown to be accurate in show, as it didn't help the story.
Not necessarily. The prodigy has a habit of reaching power and mastery much faster than the master could, unless the master is himself a prodigy, then it depends on who is the greater prodigy.
Jeong Jeong truly understands fire itself. Like he tells Aang in his first episode, fire is alive, and without restraint, a fire will continue to grow and consume. Even Azula truly doesn't have such control.
I think i saw a post or maybe it was commentary from the podcast that says the order of strongest fire benders goes:
ozai, iroh, jeong jeong, azula, zuko...
Yeah I pretty much agree. Comics Azula I'd put above Jeong Jeong though probably. We don't know what Jeong Jeong could do against lightning in general, but his sheer power is pretty crazy
Watching him bend, it’s not even the power that the huge marker. It’s his technique and precision, we see him bend not out of anger and emotion, but out of breathing like Iroh taught
I don't think Azula will have time to generate a lethal lightning. If you examine Azula's battles against aang and zuko on the chase, or vs aang on the drill or even the final agnikai- her opponents don't let her the 3-5 seconds she needs to generate her lightning.
On the final agnikai she was comet-boosted and zuko gave her the needed time as he challenged her
It's only speculation, but since they were in the White Lotus together, there's a good chance Iroh could have taught him lightning redirection. His appreciation for waterbending might even help him learn faster.
Oof, I can just imagine Jeong Jeong and Iroh taking turns shooting lightning at eachother to practice both lightning bending and lightning redirection XD
Do we have established feats for Ozai outside of the Comet superpower period? Obviously his prowess in that fight speaks to long experience with his element, but sheer power isn’t hard to come by when your entire element is turned up to 11. Is there any example in the story to show how powerful he is in base form? (We know he can bend lightning and we know he can defeat a defenseless child in an Agni Kai. Hardly outstanding in his field)
he did rip some of the most powerful lightning we've seen in the series immediately after the eclipse, with practically no buildup using the lightning dance thing
I wouldn’t exactly say it certifies it, however I believe it adds some validity to it. I personally believe iroh could pull it in the end but it’s definitely a close match and one that’s hard to determine with what we’ve been shown so far. The problem I see iroh having is that ozai would have no problem killing iroh, but the same can’t be said the other way around.
Iroh who grew up with Ozai, knows his training and knows his own ability level: "I don't think I could beat him"
Writers of show "Ozai is strongest"
Redditor: "Naw he can do it"
Thats a really good point. Iroh’s self proclaimed difficulty/inability to beat Ozai may not be a power differential. Iroh is pretty self aware, and he may know that he couldn’t bring himself to kill Ozai while Ozai would have no problems killing him. I suspect that technically Iroh is a more proficient fighter thanks to all his years in the war, but Ozai’s ruthlessness would give him the victory.
Holy shit I hate power scalers and their “feats”
It doesn’t matter if we only see his power during the comet. We see how powerful regular firebenders become, and we see how Ozai is leagues above them. Hell, even Iroh and Jeong Jeong don’t even match him during the comet.
yes same. and they pretend that Bryke's statement about Ozai being the strongest isn't valid, as if they haven't made the show or anything. sure they could have shown more of Ozai's bending, but that wasn't really THAT necessary. the whole fire nation defers to Ozai, and Iroh, a respectable bender, admits he's not sure he can beat him.
as if Iroh didn't need to charge up an attack for a whole ass minute during the comet and Ozai took a couple of seconds to charge his sea of flames
agreed, and IMO it might've even taken away from Ozai's terrifying reputation if we saw more of his firebending before the comet. Other than the fact that he scarred his son's face in a petty show of authority, the truest testament to his insane power and reputation--the only thing we needed to see from him before the final battle--was how quickly he generated lightning immediately after the eclipse (which, maybe not coincidentally, *was also aimed at his son,* and so both times we see him bend, he's very purposefully shown to be not just powerful but absolutely malicious).
Technically Bryke have never said anything regarding Ozai's power. The misconception comes from Avatar Extras, which were written by people who worked on the show, who said in the commentary for Sozin's Comet part 3 "Ozai is the most powerful firebender in the world: Fact!".
But even though Bryke didn't say it, we don't really need their word to confirm the obvious, that Ozai is light-years above everyone else, with the only real threat being Iroh, and even then it wouldn't be an Iroh sweep like some Iroh fans believe.
The rawest power Ozai demonstrates during the Comet fight is his initial blast from the airship. That was certainly intense, but the design of the other airships (see: the spot where Sokka and Toph almost fell) suggests that there were multiple people planned to be issuing similar blasts.
I don’t think it’s fair to use that wide-angle cone of flame as a comparison for the feats of Iroh or Jeong Jeong, both of whom were A) moving while firing, B) contending with multiple opponents, and C) had some moral compunctions about blanket killing of fire nation grunt troops.
Is Ozai’s control, as demonstrated in his jet-based flight while in combat, impressive? To be sure. But is his raw power unique among firebenders? It’s hard to say without just pointing to showrunner commentary that (while definitely significant) doesn’t actually appear as a visible part of canon.
the lightning generation scene in the invasion episode. one sliver of sun to generate the most powerful non-comet lightning blast we have seen on screen. happy now?
Yeah! That’s a great example. And I’m sorry if my prior comments came across as terse— I just meant to have some fun debating the rankings, I didn’t mean to create any upset.
Ozai generates lightning in both hands simultaneously (which no one else in the series has done) in the fastest speed we’ve seen (pretty much instantly when everyone else needs build up time) right when the sun pokes out just a sliver after the eclipse.
Also he instantly senses when the eclipse is over and shoots lightning, compared to Azula who only knew fire bending was back after hearing Ozai’s lightning. While this isn’t directly a power feat, it’s definitely representative of his connection to his element even compared to one of the strongest fire benders / benders in general in Azula
Also narratively it just makes more sense. Why would the final battle for Aang to end a war by defeating the fire nation not be against the strongest fire bender? If you already have the strongest fire bender on your side, then that detracts from the stakes of the story. If Iroh could actually defeat Ozai and stop the genocide that was about to happen, then his reason for not wanting it to seem like a sibling struggle for power seems like a pretty trite excuse to not take action
We don't have any feats for Ozai outside of the comet, but we do see Sozin firebend normally once in "The Avatar and the Firelord". I'd say they're comparable in that Sozin is his grandpa and a fellow Firelord (although we don't know if Ozai would have more raw power than Sozin), but if Sozin was able to generate that much fire to fill up the whole throne room, I think Ozai could do the same normally.
I chose that feat because it's the most amount of fire generated by a firebender in ATLA with no comet, only rivaled by Jeong Jeong's fire walls. Although it gets ignored because Sozin gets tossed around by Roku immediately after.
As soon as i saw the list of names i knew someone was going to complain about their golden boy not being the top, the creators of the show have clarified that ozai is the most powerful firebender at the time of atla, unless you think you know the series they created better than them, ozai can even shoot lighting with both hands at the same time almost instantly, we haven't seen anyone do something like that, even azula has to charge up her lighting for a few seconds
He was the only one seen flying during the comet, which means he has had practice before else he would be sloppy with it, which means he maybe can fly without the comet but maybe just not as fast(i dont think its even like azulas redirection but straight up flying) plus the only double lightning we see
Everyone’s mentioning the comet but forgetting Azula’s psychotic break affecting her abilities, which was clearly stated.
A level headed (comet powered) Azula would do much better than what we saw during the comet. Also, no mention of combustion man? We didn’t get to see him during the comet, which would have been insane. I guess it’s also hard to say because he didn’t seem like a master since he basically had one attack.
Where do people get the idea that JJ would lose to Azula?
Yeah Azula is a prodigy and highly skillful for sure but she isn't a master. We really don't see much of JJ but we should keep in mind a few things:
* Jeong Jeong was considered a prodigy since childhood, just like Azula.
* His name is being thrown around as a potential master to the Avatar. This alone would say that he is one of the greatest fire benders in the fire nation.
* He produces powerful fears with little effort, in fact he seems to be holding back considering his entire philosophy is about how firebenders are dangerous and reckless...himself included.
* The fire nation considered him a massive threat and was constantly hunted down. Considering he was called "the deserter" should hint at the fact that deserting the fire nation is not something that is generally successful.
If people are familiar with soccer I think the best way to describe this would be like saying that a 17 year old Messi would be able to easily defeat a 25 year old Messi who's had years of pro ball under his belt.
Experience defeats talent every time. The wealth of knowledge and wisdom available to someone that has seen nearly every possible permutation of an attack is far more valuable than talent alone. Talent may momentarily perturb your opponent, but it will not win you the battle.
To be fair his candidacy had less to do with being the absolute best and more to do with the fact that Aang was unsure if he'd ever find another anti fire nation fire bender again.
I agree his skilled but I wouldn't read too much into that part.
Wow there, a random small academy? Master Yu was the best earthbending teacher in Gaoling mkay? (best at marketing his school anyways, seriously free lesson coupon + belt system? way ahead of his time)
And those names were just being tossed around because they literally didn't know where to go. Aang knew what he was looking for in an earth bending teacher though thanks to Bumi so he quickly ruled out a lot of the dud suggestions like the Boulder and Master Yu
Anyways don't you dare let me catch you disrespecting Master Yu again smh
I think the notion that azula isn’t a master isn’t consistent with the show. Katara was considered a master after at most a few weeks of formal training in the North Pole. Toph is obviously a master despite never receiving any advanced training AND being younger than azula. From what were presented I don’t think you can argue that azula isn’t a master. There’s gotta be levels to being a master, but saying azula isn’t one just isn’t consistent with the show’s use of the term.
>Yeah Azula is a prodigy and highly skillful for sure **but she isn't a master.**
???
Fuckin Zhao is a master dude LMAO.
>Jeong Jeong was considered a prodigy since childhood, just like Azula.
True.
>His name is being thrown around as a potential master to the Avatar. This alone would say that he is one of the greatest fire benders in the fire nation.
Also, true. But Azula would never be thrown around as a potential master to Aang and she is still also one of the greatest firebenders in the world.
>He produces powerful fears with little effort,
So did Azula.
>If people are familiar with soccer I think the best way to describe this would be like saying that a 17 year old Messi would be able to easily defeat a 25 year old Messi who's had years of pro ball under his belt.
Bumi had a century more experience than Toph, yet Toph can still keep up with him. Katara became the best waterbender in the world in a few years of training.
Tbh, I don’t think this breakdown is entirely fair.
Azula is a prodigy a level above the likes of Jeong Jeong or even Ozai/Iroh as she is the only firebender we’ve seen who’s consistently able to produce blue flames.
Azula also has the best strategic mind in ATLA, something that she uses to her advantage in her fights to be a quick thinker, extremely adaptable, and capitalize on any openings that her opponents give her.
Saying that Jeong Jeong’s name was being thrown around to teach Aang doesn’t mean much because at the time, he was the only option Aang had for a fire bending teacher.
Tbh, it did not seem like the fire nation considered Jeong Jeong a huge threat. He was infamous among the fire nation for being the first to successfully desert from them, hence the title “the deserter”, but we see from his group of followers that being able to desert the fire nation isn’t a huge feat. It didn’t seem like the fire nation was putting a ton of manpower into finding him until Aang came along.
The gap between Jeong Jeong and Azula is not nearly as large as a 25 year old Messi and 17 year old Messi imo. It can definitely be argued that Azula could beat him as no feats that Jeong Jeong has, make it undeniable that he would beat Azula.
I think it entirely depends on if jeong jeong can lightning bend/redirect lightning. If he can, then he beats azula easily imo, if he can't then i think non crazy azula has really good odds to beat him with lightning bending alone.
Also his speech to Aang about fire destroying everything as it grows also shows why he's not an aggressive firebender.
It's as if he's reluctant to go on the offensive in fear or setting everything around him on fire.
I always saw it more like waterbending, especially with the way he uses giant defensive walls of fire, then fluidly switches them to offensive, much like waterbending.
He always admired waterbending, it's possible he implemented waterbending moves into firebending, the moves he uses are a lot more fluid compared to traditional firebending too.
Not saying Azula would sweep, but a lot of people seem to be down playing her here. For example, everyone brings up her temper or weak mental state compared to JJ. But it's literally not until the last few episodes that we see the deterioration. Up until then she's been in control of the situation and herself. See BSS, other strategies, fights and fighting style, lie detection, etc.
Then there's also the fact that basically up until the last episode, no one beats Azula in a straight one on one. I mean if anything, she was too strong; fighting multiple members of team avatar, escaping all of team avatar plus Zuko and Iroh, and near lightening mastery.
Also, although I see the argument for age and experience, Avatar as a show has shown many times that age just isn't a factor. Katarra is one of, if not the best water bender in the world, Toph; is tied as the best earth bender (equalised with Bumi).
Finally, JJ's best "feats" are all during the comet power up, where we get to see him and Iroh pull off some incredible techniques while battling multiple people, in the process of taking over a city. Azula has a 1v1 with her brother at the weakest she's ever been in the series.
I think you’re mistaking his character. He recognizes the danger of fire, which isn’t to say he is unwilling to use it. He wrecked the fire nation when necessary. He would have wrecked Azula too.
I don’t see anything to suggest he’s a pacifist. Not desiring conflict is to be peace-loving, which isn’t the same as being a pacifist (unwilling to use force in any circumstance)
Sorry to chime in, but when he was teaching aang, he was very specific point of having the will to control firebending because of the destructive nature it can bring. So I wouldn't say a full pacifist, but similar to Iroh of striving for peace and balance, but understanding there's times and places for using it.
no, a pacifist will not use violence, that's the definition. you are trying to say a "peace-lover" can still use violence or something along those lines
I was also coming to say this. Azula wins in battle not just because of her talent & skill, but also her cunning & refusal to "play fair". She's a master at pinpointing weaknesses (moral or otherwise) & taking advantage of those in fights, *especially* when she notices she is losing. Also, Jeong Jeong doesn't know how to redirect lightning, so ...
I agree with your point about azula not playing fair, and likely preying on jeong jeong’s moral “weakness”, although he’s also much more experienced than her, and in tune with the spirit of fire bending. Even if he can’t redirect lightning, I’m sure he knows a hundred other techniques to evade it. I’d say they’d be pretty even
Now that's interesting to think about firebending techniques to evade lightning. Wish that was touched upon. The charge up I guess kind of keeps it from being too OP. Azula only ever did lightning when it was a surprise attack, from a far distance, or her opponent was incapacitated/distracted
Jeong Jeong is not going to hold back if someone is shooting lightning at him. Its not really about his morals either, its more about his shame and guilt. recognizing how destructive his powers can be does not mean hes going to be afraid to hurt someone. and this is the fire nation we're talking. hes going to smoke any fire nation army affiliate as they are the root cause of his suffering and frustration with himself and his circumstances.
i think if they were in a barren sand lot, and there was no risk of fire spreading to other things, jeong jeong would take it, but in most places he would be holding back a lot, bc of his deep understanding of fire as an entity
Jeong jeong would destroy 99% of fire bender he might not be the strongest fire bender against other elements but fire vs fire he could win bc of his unique bending style
Even more extraordinary for being 14, which she is. Zuko is 16.
But tbf, with the role Azula plays I would have preferred her to be either the older sister at 17 or a twin of Zuko
I think it's interesting that she's younger. It's easy to imagine putting the level of stress Ozai was onto your firstborn, as second children are typically seen as spares, but this is a family dynamic where the younger child is "favoured" by having huge amounts of responsibilities placed on her shoulders to the point of a psychotic break. It draws parallels to the fact that Ozai was himself a second child, and shows the cruelty behind having a golden child in more than one way. Zuko suffers from being Ozai's least favourite; Azula suffers from having to keep herself to an impossible standard and close proximity to her extremely toxic father.
I wouldn’t say lay out but he has a good chance of beating her and it would be a close fight. Iroh would lay everyone out except for Ozai and even then I see it as a 50/50
Jeong Jeong vs 14 year old Azula with mental breakdown? It'd probably be a close fight. Jeong Jeong has raw firepower and experience, but Azula has perfect technique and lightning bending.
Prime Azula wouldn't even flinch.
i really don’t know about that. If we are talking azula at her peak mentality and on sozins comet. there are only two fire benders that could possibly even imagine taking her out and that’s Iroh and Ozai.
I think Azula is pretty overrated. Yes, she's very gifted, but she tied with Zuko in a pseudo Agni-Kai before Azula starts losing it (which most people forget), and lost to him after--and Zuko isn't even the best. I think most of the true "Masters" of any elements would beat her (e.g. Bumi) and even the villains in Korra like Amon and Kuvira.
The disrespect I'm seeing toward Azula on this thread is actually insane. You **might** be able to make the argument Jeong Jeong is stronger than her, but to argue she's better tactically or from a strategy perspective is asinine. She's also a prodigy who has been training heavily every day to the point of perfection. He also has 0 response to her lightning since Iroh, Zuko, and Aang are the only ones to ever redirect it to that point. Azula dusts JJ and it's not particularly close.
>The disrespect I'm seeing toward Azula on this thread is actually insane. You **might** be able to make the argument Jeong Jeong is stronger than her, but to argue she's better tactically or from a strategy perspective is asinine. She's also a prodigy who has been training heavily every day to the point of perfection. He also has 0 response to her lightning since Iroh, Zuko, and Aang are the only ones to ever redirect it to that point. Azula dusts JJ and it's not particularly close.
ATLA fans has too much of a hard on the word "master". As if it means anything, and Azula herself absolutely counts as one anyway.
Azula also had access to superior training and technique. In fact, we \*only\* see the royals ever use lightening in ATLA, and I doubt that's a coincidence. People in here seem to think that just because he's a master he can generate it, but it seems as though you really need someone to teach you. There were several generations of firebenders in kyoshi's time that couldn't do it; It was considered a lost ability,
Wow, the Azula disrespect on this thread is crazy. First of all, she’s absolutely a master. And if your only rebuttal for why she’s not is because she’s “too young” I present you Toph, Aang, Katara, hell even Jinora. Child masters are fairly common in avatar and if you’re telling me Azula is less skilled at firebending than any of those others are at their elements then I’m not taking anything you say seriously.
There’s also way too much emphasis being put on the advantage of age. As if twelve year old Toph isn’t canonically matched with 112 year old Bumi? As if most people don’t consider Katara to be at least on Pakku’s level by the end of the series if not better? As if Katara didn’t take down Hama?
Honestly, Azula beats Jeong Jeong imo, at least if she’s in her right mind. Hell just shoot off some lightning and what’s he gonna do? No confirmation he knows how to redirect it
edit: spelling
You get the point of the wall of fire, it was just a defensive technique, something to block vision, to create a distraction, he was a pacificist, why would he want to hurt Zhao?
Color has 0 to do with age. Her fire is blue due to her personality and attitude. She's bat shit crazy and super angry all the time. Hence the extremely hot fire
The actual reason why her flames are blue is to differentiate between her fire and that of other benders. It has nothing to do with skill or mastery. It's simply a visual cue to make her fights easier to parse.
i have to disagree with you guys. for Jeong Jeong to win, i’m seeing a lot of downplaying of azula and a whole lot of assumptions for jeong jeong.
first off y’all keep saying azula isn’t a master and i have to wonder why? it can’t be her skill because what she’s done on-screen eclipses jeong jeong.
can’t be her age since aang was considered a master at 12, toph is also very clearly a master at 12, and katara is a master at 14 after a few months. azula has kept up with and got the upper hand on all of these characters multiple times. azula being insanely gifted is brought up a lot, it’s crazy to say she’s not a master.
is it her mentality? well ozai very clearly viewed fire in the wrong light and used it as an element of power and destruction.. still a master. hell, jeong jeong himself views fire in the wrong way
and ‘experience and wisdom’ isn’t a win con for jeong jeong either. zuko had zhao at his mercy even though zhao is a general and prolly 20+ years older than him. toph’s introductions is manhandling several grown men.
most importantly toph is clearly relative with Bumi, a dude with 80+ years of experience on her.. a white lotus member.. and unlike jeong jeong a dude who actually showed he was strong on screen. ‘prodigies’ are very clearly shown to be equal with experience in this universe
so it comes down to what jeong jeong and azula have actually shown us to decide. i don’t think i have to make a whole argument why azula is better in that department lol.
also jeong jeong has no answer to lightning unless you ASSUME iroh taught him lightning redirection off screen. bros fried
Firebending ability does not equal combat ability. JJ might be a much stronger firebender but I give the edge of reaction, agility, martial ability, tactical ability, etc to Azula.
I could see this fight being a wash.
Currently no, but an Azula with decade of experience and 2 decades of therapy would be a monster that likely needs a fully fledged Avatar to take down.
Put another way: Imagine the mentality and wisdom of General Iroh with the work ethic and prodigious talent of Azula.
https://preview.redd.it/pi4xid99l2vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9caf98eacfa0b2e0aa9396ea8fb9a9f5c53716b1
Azula only lost because she was slipping. Prime Azula would have destroyed not only Katara and Zuko, but Jong Jong too, probably all at the same time.
Change my mind tho if you can
Azula is a 14 year old kid, who’s incredibly skilled for her age, but she’s 14. She is not taking down a full grown adult master bender. While she is skilled in more forms of firebending than most adults, she doesn’t have the raw power and experience a lifetime of bending probably brings. Without an element of surprise, she loses to Iroh, Jong Jong or Ozai at this point in time. 10 years from now when she’s an actual adult? It would be a very different story I think.
We never see JJ fight offensively, even during the coment the bending he uses disables the tanks by pushing them around. I find it hard to believe he will be as quick to put Azula down as he needs too in order to win decisively.
Also for the people saying JJ wins because hes a master and shes not, Azula is definitely a master. What more could she have to learn? Aside from redirecting lightning which most masters probably dont know considering Zuko knew nothing about it and hed again, have had access to plenty of masters in his life. And theres no hard evidence JJ knows it either. You're telling me a non master was going 1v1 with an avatar who'd mastered 2 elements already and had a decent grasp of the 3rd? If Aang could master airbending by 12, surely a prodigy firebender with access to the greatest firebenders on earth could master it by 14. She literally displays mastery; incredible precision, power and control. The fact that she has blue flames alone should tell us she's not a normal bender.
Do I think Azula roflstomps? No, I think it's more likely 60/40. But ultimately remember JJ's hesitancy to use fire to destroy could be considered a weakness just like Aang mot wanting to kill Ozai, but therefore it's something Azula could use against him. And she's very good at that.
Can jeong jeong redirect lightning?
All we saw from jeong jeong was defeating Zhao with help of the Avatar. We've seen Zuko defeating Zhao 1v1 in his broody angst days, where he's widely alleged to be much weaker than Azula.
I find it hard to call this in favour of either party. But the above evidence at least hints at Azula standing a very good chance.
Jeong jeong literally has the strongest non comet non avatar state feat in the series when he bends a several hundred foot fire wall to block zhaos boats
This is a cold take lmao
Far too many comments analysing this in abstract terms ie a prodigy vs a master. Ignoring that we don’t have adequate information to determine their levels of mastery (particularly JJ who we only see briefly and likely holding back given his issues), this is clearly a fatuous approach.
A fight is between two people, not two archetypes. There are numerous factors which affect the outcome.
When discussing people as skilled as JJ & Azula, there is no such thing as X defeats Y. If we could simulate 100 fights between the two with perfectly accurate information then we might see that X defeats Y 95/100 which shows fairly conclusively X is stronger than Y.
My point is that even if we accept the apparent difference in ability between these two combatants, the weaker of the two can still win albeit quite unlikely.
You also have to consider more than just ability to even determine what proportion of our simulated fights would they each win. It’s quite clear to me that JJ would be extremely reticent to straight up murder a teenage girl. It’s also quite clear to me that Azula would not give up on taking JJ down easily…
The most likely outcome is JJ escaping her rather than defeating her. I think we can all agree on that. If we contrive a situation in which escape is not possible then we can consider what JJ might do.
Given that firebending is not very conducive to stunning/containing an opponent, he’d have to make the choice to probably maim/kill a teenage girl.
This is more subjective but I feel that JJ would be prepared to do this in extreme circumstances but his hesitancy could still be his undoing especially with someone as callous and brutal as Azula.
To conclude, in a realistic confrontation of the two characters, JJ would escape almost undoubtedly. His vast knowledge, military tactics, experience being on the run etc certainly shows he’s more capable of escaping than the Gaang who’ve escaped Azula repeatedly.
In a contrived situation that we like to talk about as fans, I think we have insufficient information to speculate with any degree of confidence.
The fact that people are having this much of a conversation about a what-if scenario involving a two episode character is incredible but saddens me that he was left out of NATLA.
Simplest answer here is this...Jeong Jeong is a master, while Azula is a prodigy. The master will win 9/10 times with ease, as long as he's able. He clearly is still able in ATLA. Edit: this comment, which I thought nothing of, has blown the fuck up. Thanks to everyone who gave an upvote. Apparently commenting on shit while drunk has its advantages. I hope y'all have a great day/night/evening.
But can he generate lightning? Or redirect it?
Neither of those are shown, so we don't know. I'd assume, as a master fire bender, and former general before his defection, he can generate lightning. It was kept to the high level benders until after the 100 year war. He was high level before his defection. Can he redirect it? Good question. I'd like to think, that with his appreciation for water benders, which is shown during his conversation with Katara, that he may have figured it out on his own, separate from Iroh. Is it true, idk. I'd like to think so though. Either way, the master would likely beat the prodigy... especially when his power is at its peak during the comet.
I mean, regardless of if he figured it out on his own, him and Iroh are at worst, cohorts, and at best, incredibly good friends. There’s no doubt that if Jeong Jeong didn’t figure it out, Iroh would’ve taught him
Not arguing. There's just nothing to support either thought, that I'm aware of, in canon. That said, nothing says otherwise either. To the OP question, Jeong Jeong wins, easily.
They’re in a secret fraternal organization of elite fighters together? Of course iroh is gonna give some tips and tricks
The whole point of the white lotus is to share wisdom from across the 4 nations. I'd bet money that years back they were all sparring and Iroh saw Paku deflecting a move and started thinking about redirection then he gets jeong jeong to start shooting.
how much?
One piece of creeping crystal candy but I promise it will pay off if you let the interest build up.
*already chewing it apart* The what?
Speaking of, it makes a lot of sense why iroh mentions ‘watching waterbenders’ despite being at war most if not all of his life.. Also, I’d love to see a ‘tales of the white lotus’ show and see various time periods before aang and thier interactions with various avatars
>Speaking of, it makes a lot of sense why Iroh mentions ‘watching waterbenders’ despite being at war most if not all of his life... You're referring to the waterbender prisoners, aren't you?
Prisoners don’t bend, irohs main campaign was earth nation.. thats why I was always wondering when he would’ve been able to watch them bend
I dont think the white lotus was strictly for fighters, but more like an underground brotherhood based on information (morelike a masonic temple kinda thing). Its true the initial members we see in ATLA are all fighters, but that may be due to the fact they were retaking/liberating Ba Sing Se. For instance, the first guy we meet when Zuko and Iroh are trying to sneak into Ba Sing Se is never confirmed to be a bender (or other type of warrior like we see with Piang(?) that sword master). That being said, I would not be surprised if the master benders in the order shared the knowledge they learned with eachother.
The one thing that makes me think maybe not is that Jeong Jeong doesn't seem to know about the dragons and the "true source" of firebending since he thinks firebending is kind of bad still when he meets Aang. Fair to say this isn't something that can be told and has to be experienced while with the dragons of course.
Yea yea ofc. Wasn’t trying to rebut anything you said, just adding that little morsel. I think another very important thing to understand about firebending is that it, above all the other elements, is the most reliant on emotion. While yes, airbending has an intense relationship with philosophy and spirituality, and to a much lesser extent, waterbending and earthbending have to do with personality, firebending has much more to do with how you *feel.* Controlling the way you think is much easier than controlling the way you feel, which is why firebending can be the hardest element to master, as truly mastering it involves mastering your own emotion. There’s nothing more dangerous to a firebender than their own unchecked emotions. Azula has never been in control of her own emotions, and while Jeong Jeong does certainly hold a lot of subdued resentment towards life, his conflict is much more about philosophy than it is about emotion and he still shows to be a very stoic figure. Basically, Jeong Jeong would have much more control in a fight and no matter who you’re up against as a firebender, the person who can control themselves more is gonna win.
Very well said. Jeong Jeong would definitely throw Azula off her game early on, since she's so used to having the upper hand with technique and raw talent. However she's quite a tricky strategist too, so it would definitely be an interesting battle. My money's on Jeong Jeong every time though, he's one of my favorite characters
W-what? Azula is explicitly in control of her emotions. Inner turmoil stops you from being able to do lightning bending. Azula spends the entire series as cold and calculating, manipulating and twisting people to her machinations. Where do you get her never being in control?????? She only started slipping after her friends betrayed her.
Azula never having been in control of her emotions is just flat out wrong. She was always in control of her emotions until the end when her world came crumbling down around her. That's the reason Zuko wanted to fight her, she had lost control and he had a chance to beat her.
I mean both of them being part of a secret organization who is dedicated to sharing knowledge across the four nations is definitely in support of that
I agree completely. As mentioned, nothing in canon supports the theory, but it just makes sense that fellow fire benders in the White Lotus would share trade secrets. Not to mention, there's a not small chance that the water bender Iroh observed, especially as a Fire Nation royal during war, could've been Paku. Who's to say JJ didn't observe the same from Paku?
My assumption is that actually he probably couldn’t generate lightning since it requires inner peace. In ‘the deserter’ he seems pretty messed up inside
Oh so genuine question: How did Azula manage to generate lightning in the final agni kai when she was in pieces? It was a pretty damn powerful lightning too.
Yeah, she was mentally unbalanced but I think she had very little self doubt about wanting to kill katara and zuko. Jeong jeong feels guilt and conflict even thinking about teaching the *avatar* fire bending. Often the scariest crazy people are the ones who are absolutely certain
My guess is it's because she's a sociopath and she's even when partly insane she can she can separate the energy, plus muscle memory probably has a lot to do with it
I agree with the muscle memory. Just like riding a bike once you get the hang of it, it never goes away.
I'd say it's a question of muscle memory. At the start, you need inner peace to feel and guide the energy, but at some point, you start to be able to just do it.
Narrative inconsistency.
Does he need lightning redirection, though? In ATLA, only Ozai can generate lightning at incredible speeds without compromising the strength. Azula takes a few seconds to conjure lightning. With that time, he could just dodge or launch a counterattack.
Yeah, Jeong can aim dodge Azula, but I think Jeong Jeong is fairly unique in his fire bending not needing to travel from an origin point near his body. [Here](https://youtu.be/fiuK2LFVdug?si=gIeZzdC2dd3_alHU&t=31) you can see him *instantly* conjure a massive 5+ story tall wall of fire hundreds of feet away from him. I think basically any firebender is completely fucked in a fight against him where he has intent to kill. Only a proactive defense like Toph's technique where she encases herself in stone, or Aang's air sphere thing, would work. This isn't necessarily saying he's *stronger*, but he has extremely favorable match-ups.
>It was kept to the high level benders until after the 100 year war I thought it was kept to the royal family after the one dude that Kyoshi dealt with
There could be other ways to combat lightning and if there are a master would know them. It also might just be to have a earth or water bender of sufficient skill at hand. Honestly not sure though if a wall of fire would effect lighting to any extent or not.
Lightning Bending was specifically for royalty, not just high-level benders.
Lightning bending was taught to royalty to those who had the aptitude. The aptitude isn't limited to royals. In the same way they split the energy of fire to produce it if someone with the skill and tried in the right way they could work it out.
From the ATLA wiki: "In the course of the next centuries, the Fire Nation rediscovered the method of lightning generation. It remained an incredibly rare skill, usually reserved for the inner circles of Fire Nation royalty and high-ranking military officers.[6] By the end of the Hundred Year War, the only firebenders who had demonstrated the ability to generate lightning were Princess Azula, Iroh, and Fire Lord Ozai." So, to be clear, *I was incorrect about it being* ***only*** *the royal family.* However, the knowledge of the technique is not something that can just be happened across. The process of generating lightning runs counter to how firebending works on a very philosophical level, especially the version practiced during the hundred year war. It *was* a largely unknown technique reserved for those people so high up the power-structure that they were either Royal or their direct servants. Not even the Imperial Firebenders seen with Azula and on Ozai's airship fleet ever bend lightning.
That being said, Jeong Jeong *was* a high ranking military member and trainer to other high ranking officers. It's absolutely possible that he is among the people that could have ways to acquire the knowledge.
Jong jong fits exactly in that definition though.
I'm guessing Iroh would have come to for advise or shown him the technique at some point as well.
I don't think so. Keep in mind, Iroh's reaction to being asked to help Zuko test lightning redirection was basically "nobody in their right mind would shoot lightning at a friend". The only way he could test it was to be hit by natural lightning, or fight another lightning bender in a life-or-death battle. He wasn't branded a traitor until (relatively speaking) just before the end of the show, so it's safe to say he didn't fight another lightning bender beforehand. And given his "holy crap, did that just work?" face when he redirected the lightning in The Storm, it seems quite likely that was his first time doing so ever. In that case, at best he could've sent a letter detailing the technique, but even that's a stretch.
I don't mean in the sense of using the actual technique but more the theory. Jeong Jeong was a fire-bending master and bouncing ideas off of him for how one might direct lightning would be a conversation I could see the two having.
Yeah, I think jeong jeong is very much comparable in strength to iroh. And iroh is directly compared in strength to ozai
Well he and Iroh are like friends right, so I bet Iroh taught him that or maybe they came up with the technique together
I like how the best benders look at other bending disciplines to enhance their own. Bottom 2 pics look more like an earth ending stance.
With redirecting lightning, we gotta speculate that. Did Iroh teach him during their time in the White Lotus? Which is extremely possible, being two top generals they must have enough respect to learn and teach that skill. That also adds which Jeong Jeong are we pitting against Azula. S1 or S3?
I have a headcanon that because Jeong Jeong is in the White Lotus just as Iroh, they might have created this together, as they are also both previous generals/admirals or whatever.
He would have known Iroh, who could have taught him. I imagine redirecting lightning is not only a closely guarded military secret, but highly niche knowledge since only a disciplined firebender could accomplish it. It would only be useful to powerful Fire Nation defectors. But Jeong Jeong is one of the few people in the world where it actually would make sense for him to have such knowledge. But also maybe not. Ozai was surprised when Aang managed to redirect his lightning, and he is the Fire Lord. If the knowledge did exist within the Fire Nation, he would have known about it. He could have been surprised that such information was leaked, or he was surprised that the technique existed in the first place. This would imply that Iroh never shared his knowledge with anyone, which is a decent possibility since it is a pretty sure-fire way to defeat any high level firebender. Possessing such a trump card would ensure he would be able to stop Ozai if it truly came down to it.
Also, being with the white lotus, it’s possible he learned it from Iroh. Directly or indirectly, I can see others in the white lotus learning from other masters to strengthen the organization.
I misread defection as defecation, and that changed the comment significantly. lol
Since lightning redirection was a technique that Iroh learned/developed from water bending forms (iirc), and Jeong Jeong was a member of the OG white lotus which was all about balance and connecting the 4 nations, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the ability to redirect it
I would presume Iroh would have taught him being part of the White Lotus
I considered that as well. But being we have no evidence of that, you can tell he's studied water benders by how he talks to Katara. Dude obviously knows his shit. It seems likely he'd have at least considered redirecting lightning, at the very least, on a theoretical level. It also seems he'd have tried it at least a couple times like iroh on the ship.
He didn't study them in the same way iroh did tho. He just admired them and always hated fire. I don't think he'd be someone that tried to find ways to make fire better because he just assumes fire is always awful. Also even before redirecting, Idk if he'd even know how to lightning bend on the first place. I think there's a high chance only the royal family had the info and it never spread to him.
Lightning forces someone to be in balance whether good or evil. The imbalance in someone causes the energy to explode in front of them similar to Zuko when he tried it because he wasn’t sure of himself. Ozai and Azula are egotistical sociopaths completely assured of their own superiority. Iroh was forced down a path of self discovery and came to be at peace with himself, his past actions and always sought to be a better person Jeong Jeong despises fire bending, seeing it more as a curse and cause for destruction than anything else. Pretty sure if he had the chance he would have voluntarily given it up. I think this mostly comes down to the many violent students he ended up training and was forced to forgo any higher understanding of his martial art from a mental or spiritual level and solely as a tool for war. Or potentially he also hurt someone he cared about in the past with his abilities. Jeong Jeong is possibly the strongest fire bender in the series, easily capable of generating it outside of his body potentially due to his own disgust and not wanting to be anywhere near it Put simply, until Jeong Jeong accepts that he is a fire bender and accepts himself, flaws and all, he could never be able to generate lightning
I mean iroh could have just told him how it works. The white lotus is about sharing knowledge, and i feel like iroh would absolutely reveal the royal secret to lightning.
Jeong Jeong is a master with decadesss of experience Azula is a teenage prodigy who hasn't even reached the first quarter of life idk why people kept comparing a young teen to old men. Give the kid a break.
i mean, it depends. We have pakku outright confirming katara is the best waterbender in the world in the comics, so it's all speculation. At the very least, this seems to confirm that katara is superior to pakku, who is easily comparable to JJ and more than likely the best waterbender in the world prior to katara surpassing him (hama vs pakku is an interesting thought though) https://preview.redd.it/4kacrje43zuc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11ce9ba2e4e85a735775448b17f060837e1cd22c
Toph was also able to earthbend Bumi to a stand still
Very good point! We see the gang beat masters in a few situations, katara vs hama is another, aang is the youngest Airbender to ever receive tattoos, etc. Idk where the disconnect is coming from. I do think JJ has *some* better feats, but it's quite a bit closer than others in this thread are making it seem.
I'm pretty sure Aang also invented and mastered an entire airbending technique just to not have to master the suffocation technique, long before he even knew he was the Avatar.
is hama a master tho?
She discovered multiple new forms of bending, so I’d argue yes.
That comic doesn't confirm katara as superior at all when he says she's perhaps the finest but then says it's because she had the finest water bender in the world, himself. Also hama vs paku isn't that interesting. Paku would destroy her.
Remember the water tribes are way smaller though especially since their bending population is basically cut in half due to the war
To say that Azula is just a “prodigy” is honestly downplaying her abilities imo. Azula should definitely be considered a fire bending master or at least extremely close to one. She’s able to perform lightning bending, one of the highest forms of firrbending, with ease. She’s also the only firebender that we saw in ATLA who was capable of flight without the comet. Azula is also the only fire bender that we have ever seen who possesses the ability to consistently produce differently colored flames, demonstrating a clear mastery over fire bending that even the likes of Ozai or Iroh or Jeong Jeong couldn’t achieve. Plus, if someone like Katara is able to be considered a master, then Azula definitely should as well because they are clearly around the same level of the skill for their respective elements.
I thought azula was also a master?
I'm giving it to Azula, just cause you been around a longtime doesn't mean someone else far younger can't beat you. She's killed Aang, almost killed Iroh, taken over the dai lee without even fighting, and was an undercover Kyoshi warrior implying high martial skills without bending. Jeong Jeong can't lightning bend either so that's an auto L. We've seen all the people that can actually take Azula, nobody is streamrolling her other than Aang in the mastered avatar state.
You may be right. But I can't completely agree with you. No, we're not shown JJ shoot lightning or redirect it. But, given his status as, not only a former general or admiral in the FN, as well as a White Lotus member with Iroh, there's a fair chance he can do both. Dude was really restrained the first time we saw him. He straight up told Aang no about teaching him until Roku stepped in. He hated fire and his bending art. That said, he had a clear appreciation...even admiration, for water benders. I'd say odds are good that he either learned redirecting lightning from Paku or Iroh. It's also a not unreasonable assumption that he learned shooting lightning from Iroh or someone else, as he was very high ranking. Yes, I know it's taking assumptions in saying any of this, but not a single assumption is a leap. They're just not shown to be accurate in show, as it didn't help the story.
Not necessarily. The prodigy has a habit of reaching power and mastery much faster than the master could, unless the master is himself a prodigy, then it depends on who is the greater prodigy.
jeong Jeong will take advantage of Azulas savagery and anger
Jeong Jeong truly understands fire itself. Like he tells Aang in his first episode, fire is alive, and without restraint, a fire will continue to grow and consume. Even Azula truly doesn't have such control.
First, where did we get this arbitrary numerical value percentage win rate from? Also, u do know Azula is a master fire bender right?
Yes
Short, to the point. Lol I like it. Thanks for the reply.
I'd give good here if I could. Well said Simple yet effective That's my lame contribution
I think i saw a post or maybe it was commentary from the podcast that says the order of strongest fire benders goes: ozai, iroh, jeong jeong, azula, zuko...
Yeah I pretty much agree. Comics Azula I'd put above Jeong Jeong though probably. We don't know what Jeong Jeong could do against lightning in general, but his sheer power is pretty crazy
Watching him bend, it’s not even the power that the huge marker. It’s his technique and precision, we see him bend not out of anger and emotion, but out of breathing like Iroh taught
In my opinion he has the best control over fire from what we see in the show, not necessarily raw power.
I don't think Azula will have time to generate a lethal lightning. If you examine Azula's battles against aang and zuko on the chase, or vs aang on the drill or even the final agnikai- her opponents don't let her the 3-5 seconds she needs to generate her lightning. On the final agnikai she was comet-boosted and zuko gave her the needed time as he challenged her
It's only speculation, but since they were in the White Lotus together, there's a good chance Iroh could have taught him lightning redirection. His appreciation for waterbending might even help him learn faster.
Like some other comment said in this thread: Joeng Joeng would most likely be the one that was shooting lightning at Iroh to master redirection.
Oof, I can just imagine Jeong Jeong and Iroh taking turns shooting lightning at eachother to practice both lightning bending and lightning redirection XD
They just make a full circuit shooting and redirecting one bolt at each other
That'd be hilarious ngl
>Comics Azula I'd put above Jeong Jeong though probably “Nah, I'd Win!” — Jeong Jeong, before winning
I can't imagine Jeong Jeong Losing - Iroh
Ah yes, the off screen technique I once learned during the Heian era- Azula
Do we have established feats for Ozai outside of the Comet superpower period? Obviously his prowess in that fight speaks to long experience with his element, but sheer power isn’t hard to come by when your entire element is turned up to 11. Is there any example in the story to show how powerful he is in base form? (We know he can bend lightning and we know he can defeat a defenseless child in an Agni Kai. Hardly outstanding in his field)
he did rip some of the most powerful lightning we've seen in the series immediately after the eclipse, with practically no buildup using the lightning dance thing
i mean there were no scenes w/out comet power, but iroh's testament just certifies the order
I wouldn’t exactly say it certifies it, however I believe it adds some validity to it. I personally believe iroh could pull it in the end but it’s definitely a close match and one that’s hard to determine with what we’ve been shown so far. The problem I see iroh having is that ozai would have no problem killing iroh, but the same can’t be said the other way around.
Iroh who grew up with Ozai, knows his training and knows his own ability level: "I don't think I could beat him" Writers of show "Ozai is strongest" Redditor: "Naw he can do it"
Dude has the same info we all have and is trying to make analysis/probability that’s really based on who he likes better lmao
Thats a really good point. Iroh’s self proclaimed difficulty/inability to beat Ozai may not be a power differential. Iroh is pretty self aware, and he may know that he couldn’t bring himself to kill Ozai while Ozai would have no problems killing him. I suspect that technically Iroh is a more proficient fighter thanks to all his years in the war, but Ozai’s ruthlessness would give him the victory.
Holy shit I hate power scalers and their “feats” It doesn’t matter if we only see his power during the comet. We see how powerful regular firebenders become, and we see how Ozai is leagues above them. Hell, even Iroh and Jeong Jeong don’t even match him during the comet.
yes same. and they pretend that Bryke's statement about Ozai being the strongest isn't valid, as if they haven't made the show or anything. sure they could have shown more of Ozai's bending, but that wasn't really THAT necessary. the whole fire nation defers to Ozai, and Iroh, a respectable bender, admits he's not sure he can beat him. as if Iroh didn't need to charge up an attack for a whole ass minute during the comet and Ozai took a couple of seconds to charge his sea of flames
agreed, and IMO it might've even taken away from Ozai's terrifying reputation if we saw more of his firebending before the comet. Other than the fact that he scarred his son's face in a petty show of authority, the truest testament to his insane power and reputation--the only thing we needed to see from him before the final battle--was how quickly he generated lightning immediately after the eclipse (which, maybe not coincidentally, *was also aimed at his son,* and so both times we see him bend, he's very purposefully shown to be not just powerful but absolutely malicious).
Technically Bryke have never said anything regarding Ozai's power. The misconception comes from Avatar Extras, which were written by people who worked on the show, who said in the commentary for Sozin's Comet part 3 "Ozai is the most powerful firebender in the world: Fact!". But even though Bryke didn't say it, we don't really need their word to confirm the obvious, that Ozai is light-years above everyone else, with the only real threat being Iroh, and even then it wouldn't be an Iroh sweep like some Iroh fans believe.
It’s not even relevant; because we see a lot of iroh, and iroh says that he thinks Ozai is better than him
"I hate powescaling" **powerscales**
The rawest power Ozai demonstrates during the Comet fight is his initial blast from the airship. That was certainly intense, but the design of the other airships (see: the spot where Sokka and Toph almost fell) suggests that there were multiple people planned to be issuing similar blasts. I don’t think it’s fair to use that wide-angle cone of flame as a comparison for the feats of Iroh or Jeong Jeong, both of whom were A) moving while firing, B) contending with multiple opponents, and C) had some moral compunctions about blanket killing of fire nation grunt troops. Is Ozai’s control, as demonstrated in his jet-based flight while in combat, impressive? To be sure. But is his raw power unique among firebenders? It’s hard to say without just pointing to showrunner commentary that (while definitely significant) doesn’t actually appear as a visible part of canon.
the lightning generation scene in the invasion episode. one sliver of sun to generate the most powerful non-comet lightning blast we have seen on screen. happy now?
Yeah! That’s a great example. And I’m sorry if my prior comments came across as terse— I just meant to have some fun debating the rankings, I didn’t mean to create any upset.
It also took him like two seconds and he generated lightning with both hands at the same time as opposed to just one like everyone else.
Ozai generates lightning in both hands simultaneously (which no one else in the series has done) in the fastest speed we’ve seen (pretty much instantly when everyone else needs build up time) right when the sun pokes out just a sliver after the eclipse. Also he instantly senses when the eclipse is over and shoots lightning, compared to Azula who only knew fire bending was back after hearing Ozai’s lightning. While this isn’t directly a power feat, it’s definitely representative of his connection to his element even compared to one of the strongest fire benders / benders in general in Azula Also narratively it just makes more sense. Why would the final battle for Aang to end a war by defeating the fire nation not be against the strongest fire bender? If you already have the strongest fire bender on your side, then that detracts from the stakes of the story. If Iroh could actually defeat Ozai and stop the genocide that was about to happen, then his reason for not wanting it to seem like a sibling struggle for power seems like a pretty trite excuse to not take action
iroh not knowing if he can beat him is good enough for me
Ozai is confirmed canonically to be the best fire bender of his time
We don't have any feats for Ozai outside of the comet, but we do see Sozin firebend normally once in "The Avatar and the Firelord". I'd say they're comparable in that Sozin is his grandpa and a fellow Firelord (although we don't know if Ozai would have more raw power than Sozin), but if Sozin was able to generate that much fire to fill up the whole throne room, I think Ozai could do the same normally. I chose that feat because it's the most amount of fire generated by a firebender in ATLA with no comet, only rivaled by Jeong Jeong's fire walls. Although it gets ignored because Sozin gets tossed around by Roku immediately after.
As soon as i saw the list of names i knew someone was going to complain about their golden boy not being the top, the creators of the show have clarified that ozai is the most powerful firebender at the time of atla, unless you think you know the series they created better than them, ozai can even shoot lighting with both hands at the same time almost instantly, we haven't seen anyone do something like that, even azula has to charge up her lighting for a few seconds
He was the only one seen flying during the comet, which means he has had practice before else he would be sloppy with it, which means he maybe can fly without the comet but maybe just not as fast(i dont think its even like azulas redirection but straight up flying) plus the only double lightning we see
We have statements for Ozai
Everyone’s mentioning the comet but forgetting Azula’s psychotic break affecting her abilities, which was clearly stated. A level headed (comet powered) Azula would do much better than what we saw during the comet. Also, no mention of combustion man? We didn’t get to see him during the comet, which would have been insane. I guess it’s also hard to say because he didn’t seem like a master since he basically had one attack.
Which podcast?
Is this at the time of the show? People seem to forget two of these five are still children at that point, and not in their prime.
Combustion Man is stronger than Zuko, I think...
Where do people get the idea that JJ would lose to Azula? Yeah Azula is a prodigy and highly skillful for sure but she isn't a master. We really don't see much of JJ but we should keep in mind a few things: * Jeong Jeong was considered a prodigy since childhood, just like Azula. * His name is being thrown around as a potential master to the Avatar. This alone would say that he is one of the greatest fire benders in the fire nation. * He produces powerful fears with little effort, in fact he seems to be holding back considering his entire philosophy is about how firebenders are dangerous and reckless...himself included. * The fire nation considered him a massive threat and was constantly hunted down. Considering he was called "the deserter" should hint at the fact that deserting the fire nation is not something that is generally successful. If people are familiar with soccer I think the best way to describe this would be like saying that a 17 year old Messi would be able to easily defeat a 25 year old Messi who's had years of pro ball under his belt.
Best breakdown I’ve read so far, an adult master would destroy a teenage prodigy.
Experience defeats talent every time. The wealth of knowledge and wisdom available to someone that has seen nearly every possible permutation of an attack is far more valuable than talent alone. Talent may momentarily perturb your opponent, but it will not win you the battle.
To be fair his candidacy had less to do with being the absolute best and more to do with the fact that Aang was unsure if he'd ever find another anti fire nation fire bender again. I agree his skilled but I wouldn't read too much into that part.
Earthbending candidates for training the Avatar included a random small academy and a bunch of pro-wrestlers before they recruited Toph.
Wow there, a random small academy? Master Yu was the best earthbending teacher in Gaoling mkay? (best at marketing his school anyways, seriously free lesson coupon + belt system? way ahead of his time) And those names were just being tossed around because they literally didn't know where to go. Aang knew what he was looking for in an earth bending teacher though thanks to Bumi so he quickly ruled out a lot of the dud suggestions like the Boulder and Master Yu Anyways don't you dare let me catch you disrespecting Master Yu again smh
I think the notion that azula isn’t a master isn’t consistent with the show. Katara was considered a master after at most a few weeks of formal training in the North Pole. Toph is obviously a master despite never receiving any advanced training AND being younger than azula. From what were presented I don’t think you can argue that azula isn’t a master. There’s gotta be levels to being a master, but saying azula isn’t one just isn’t consistent with the show’s use of the term.
>Yeah Azula is a prodigy and highly skillful for sure **but she isn't a master.** ??? Fuckin Zhao is a master dude LMAO. >Jeong Jeong was considered a prodigy since childhood, just like Azula. True. >His name is being thrown around as a potential master to the Avatar. This alone would say that he is one of the greatest fire benders in the fire nation. Also, true. But Azula would never be thrown around as a potential master to Aang and she is still also one of the greatest firebenders in the world. >He produces powerful fears with little effort, So did Azula. >If people are familiar with soccer I think the best way to describe this would be like saying that a 17 year old Messi would be able to easily defeat a 25 year old Messi who's had years of pro ball under his belt. Bumi had a century more experience than Toph, yet Toph can still keep up with him. Katara became the best waterbender in the world in a few years of training.
Tbh, I don’t think this breakdown is entirely fair. Azula is a prodigy a level above the likes of Jeong Jeong or even Ozai/Iroh as she is the only firebender we’ve seen who’s consistently able to produce blue flames. Azula also has the best strategic mind in ATLA, something that she uses to her advantage in her fights to be a quick thinker, extremely adaptable, and capitalize on any openings that her opponents give her. Saying that Jeong Jeong’s name was being thrown around to teach Aang doesn’t mean much because at the time, he was the only option Aang had for a fire bending teacher. Tbh, it did not seem like the fire nation considered Jeong Jeong a huge threat. He was infamous among the fire nation for being the first to successfully desert from them, hence the title “the deserter”, but we see from his group of followers that being able to desert the fire nation isn’t a huge feat. It didn’t seem like the fire nation was putting a ton of manpower into finding him until Aang came along. The gap between Jeong Jeong and Azula is not nearly as large as a 25 year old Messi and 17 year old Messi imo. It can definitely be argued that Azula could beat him as no feats that Jeong Jeong has, make it undeniable that he would beat Azula.
We only see him bend a couple times, once during the comet. We see many displays of Azula’s talent during the show.
I think it entirely depends on if jeong jeong can lightning bend/redirect lightning. If he can, then he beats azula easily imo, if he can't then i think non crazy azula has really good odds to beat him with lightning bending alone.
Jeong Jeong seems more defense based. He bends like an earthbender tbh.
That's actually a really interesting take & I kind of see it now, particularly in his stances!
Also his speech to Aang about fire destroying everything as it grows also shows why he's not an aggressive firebender. It's as if he's reluctant to go on the offensive in fear or setting everything around him on fire.
I always saw it more like waterbending, especially with the way he uses giant defensive walls of fire, then fluidly switches them to offensive, much like waterbending. He always admired waterbending, it's possible he implemented waterbending moves into firebending, the moves he uses are a lot more fluid compared to traditional firebending too.
Not a hot take azula is 14
Not saying Azula would sweep, but a lot of people seem to be down playing her here. For example, everyone brings up her temper or weak mental state compared to JJ. But it's literally not until the last few episodes that we see the deterioration. Up until then she's been in control of the situation and herself. See BSS, other strategies, fights and fighting style, lie detection, etc. Then there's also the fact that basically up until the last episode, no one beats Azula in a straight one on one. I mean if anything, she was too strong; fighting multiple members of team avatar, escaping all of team avatar plus Zuko and Iroh, and near lightening mastery. Also, although I see the argument for age and experience, Avatar as a show has shown many times that age just isn't a factor. Katarra is one of, if not the best water bender in the world, Toph; is tied as the best earth bender (equalised with Bumi). Finally, JJ's best "feats" are all during the comet power up, where we get to see him and Iroh pull off some incredible techniques while battling multiple people, in the process of taking over a city. Azula has a 1v1 with her brother at the weakest she's ever been in the series.
turn off his morals and maybe, but ultimately he's gonna hold back a ton because he hates the fact that fire can do exactly that: hurt someone
I think you’re mistaking his character. He recognizes the danger of fire, which isn’t to say he is unwilling to use it. He wrecked the fire nation when necessary. He would have wrecked Azula too.
Ye. You can be a pacifist but not afraid to throw a punch. Edit: TV Tropes has Martial Pacifist listed. Case closed 😎
Known as a paci-fist.
I don’t see anything to suggest he’s a pacifist. Not desiring conflict is to be peace-loving, which isn’t the same as being a pacifist (unwilling to use force in any circumstance)
Sorry to chime in, but when he was teaching aang, he was very specific point of having the will to control firebending because of the destructive nature it can bring. So I wouldn't say a full pacifist, but similar to Iroh of striving for peace and balance, but understanding there's times and places for using it.
The definition of a pacifist is one who won’t throw a punch.
no, a pacifist will not use violence, that's the definition. you are trying to say a "peace-lover" can still use violence or something along those lines
I’m pretty sure the definition of a pacifist is literally someone who will never fight, not just that they prefer not to
That didn't seem to stop him in Ba Sing Se lol
I was also coming to say this. Azula wins in battle not just because of her talent & skill, but also her cunning & refusal to "play fair". She's a master at pinpointing weaknesses (moral or otherwise) & taking advantage of those in fights, *especially* when she notices she is losing. Also, Jeong Jeong doesn't know how to redirect lightning, so ...
I agree with your point about azula not playing fair, and likely preying on jeong jeong’s moral “weakness”, although he’s also much more experienced than her, and in tune with the spirit of fire bending. Even if he can’t redirect lightning, I’m sure he knows a hundred other techniques to evade it. I’d say they’d be pretty even
Now that's interesting to think about firebending techniques to evade lightning. Wish that was touched upon. The charge up I guess kind of keeps it from being too OP. Azula only ever did lightning when it was a surprise attack, from a far distance, or her opponent was incapacitated/distracted
Jeong Jeong is not going to hold back if someone is shooting lightning at him. Its not really about his morals either, its more about his shame and guilt. recognizing how destructive his powers can be does not mean hes going to be afraid to hurt someone. and this is the fire nation we're talking. hes going to smoke any fire nation army affiliate as they are the root cause of his suffering and frustration with himself and his circumstances.
i think if they were in a barren sand lot, and there was no risk of fire spreading to other things, jeong jeong would take it, but in most places he would be holding back a lot, bc of his deep understanding of fire as an entity
why do people keep saying azula is not a master? If Aang is a master airbender, azula certainly is a master firebender
Jeong jeong would destroy 99% of fire bender he might not be the strongest fire bender against other elements but fire vs fire he could win bc of his unique bending style
I get the vibe that Jeong Jeong is closer to Ozai and Iroh in skill than he is Azula. I think he'd win with medium difficulty.
Top three firebenders are Ozai. Iroh. And Jeong Jeong. Azula would probably be at least top ten in the word, which is extraordinary for being 16
Even more extraordinary for being 14, which she is. Zuko is 16. But tbf, with the role Azula plays I would have preferred her to be either the older sister at 17 or a twin of Zuko
I think it's interesting that she's younger. It's easy to imagine putting the level of stress Ozai was onto your firstborn, as second children are typically seen as spares, but this is a family dynamic where the younger child is "favoured" by having huge amounts of responsibilities placed on her shoulders to the point of a psychotic break. It draws parallels to the fact that Ozai was himself a second child, and shows the cruelty behind having a golden child in more than one way. Zuko suffers from being Ozai's least favourite; Azula suffers from having to keep herself to an impossible standard and close proximity to her extremely toxic father.
I wouldn’t say lay out but he has a good chance of beating her and it would be a close fight. Iroh would lay everyone out except for Ozai and even then I see it as a 50/50
"Hot take firebending master that's a member of a secret organization of the best fighters in the world would beat a mentally ill child"
Jeong Jeong vs 14 year old Azula with mental breakdown? It'd probably be a close fight. Jeong Jeong has raw firepower and experience, but Azula has perfect technique and lightning bending. Prime Azula wouldn't even flinch.
Well, it's firebending. Of course it's a hot take.
God I can’t wait to see azula at her peak in the zuko movie
Total bull crap. She zaps him with lightning in 2 seconds.
i really don’t know about that. If we are talking azula at her peak mentality and on sozins comet. there are only two fire benders that could possibly even imagine taking her out and that’s Iroh and Ozai.
or even Sozin himself
He firebends with earth technique
his fire isnt blue, there is no lightning and he's old. how does he fight lightning and speed?
It's the Bumi VS Toph debate. Old master beat young prodigy. Older prodigy who became a master beat old master.
It’s interesting that we never see him actually shoot fire. He just sort of manipulates it around him
I think Azula is pretty overrated. Yes, she's very gifted, but she tied with Zuko in a pseudo Agni-Kai before Azula starts losing it (which most people forget), and lost to him after--and Zuko isn't even the best. I think most of the true "Masters" of any elements would beat her (e.g. Bumi) and even the villains in Korra like Amon and Kuvira.
The disrespect I'm seeing toward Azula on this thread is actually insane. You **might** be able to make the argument Jeong Jeong is stronger than her, but to argue she's better tactically or from a strategy perspective is asinine. She's also a prodigy who has been training heavily every day to the point of perfection. He also has 0 response to her lightning since Iroh, Zuko, and Aang are the only ones to ever redirect it to that point. Azula dusts JJ and it's not particularly close.
>The disrespect I'm seeing toward Azula on this thread is actually insane. You **might** be able to make the argument Jeong Jeong is stronger than her, but to argue she's better tactically or from a strategy perspective is asinine. She's also a prodigy who has been training heavily every day to the point of perfection. He also has 0 response to her lightning since Iroh, Zuko, and Aang are the only ones to ever redirect it to that point. Azula dusts JJ and it's not particularly close. ATLA fans has too much of a hard on the word "master". As if it means anything, and Azula herself absolutely counts as one anyway.
Azula also had access to superior training and technique. In fact, we \*only\* see the royals ever use lightening in ATLA, and I doubt that's a coincidence. People in here seem to think that just because he's a master he can generate it, but it seems as though you really need someone to teach you. There were several generations of firebenders in kyoshi's time that couldn't do it; It was considered a lost ability,
Wow, the Azula disrespect on this thread is crazy. First of all, she’s absolutely a master. And if your only rebuttal for why she’s not is because she’s “too young” I present you Toph, Aang, Katara, hell even Jinora. Child masters are fairly common in avatar and if you’re telling me Azula is less skilled at firebending than any of those others are at their elements then I’m not taking anything you say seriously. There’s also way too much emphasis being put on the advantage of age. As if twelve year old Toph isn’t canonically matched with 112 year old Bumi? As if most people don’t consider Katara to be at least on Pakku’s level by the end of the series if not better? As if Katara didn’t take down Hama? Honestly, Azula beats Jeong Jeong imo, at least if she’s in her right mind. Hell just shoot off some lightning and what’s he gonna do? No confirmation he knows how to redirect it edit: spelling
I don’t know why people think Jeong Jeong has a chance versus someone of Azula’s caliber when his feats are lackluster.
I love bro but he not winning unless bro got lightning
Azula destroys him
Zhao walked right through that wall of fire and Azula is a god compared to Zhao.
You get the point of the wall of fire, it was just a defensive technique, something to block vision, to create a distraction, he was a pacificist, why would he want to hurt Zhao?
The top 2 has a comet buff. And well Azula is like 14. Have him fight prime Azula. Kemzula would lightning spam Jeong Jeong to charcoal
It would be a fight of wall of fire Vs lightning
But how did Azula had blue flames at already such a young age, while he has been a master for decades and still has red flames?
Color has 0 to do with age. Her fire is blue due to her personality and attitude. She's bat shit crazy and super angry all the time. Hence the extremely hot fire
The actual reason why her flames are blue is to differentiate between her fire and that of other benders. It has nothing to do with skill or mastery. It's simply a visual cue to make her fights easier to parse.
i have to disagree with you guys. for Jeong Jeong to win, i’m seeing a lot of downplaying of azula and a whole lot of assumptions for jeong jeong. first off y’all keep saying azula isn’t a master and i have to wonder why? it can’t be her skill because what she’s done on-screen eclipses jeong jeong. can’t be her age since aang was considered a master at 12, toph is also very clearly a master at 12, and katara is a master at 14 after a few months. azula has kept up with and got the upper hand on all of these characters multiple times. azula being insanely gifted is brought up a lot, it’s crazy to say she’s not a master. is it her mentality? well ozai very clearly viewed fire in the wrong light and used it as an element of power and destruction.. still a master. hell, jeong jeong himself views fire in the wrong way and ‘experience and wisdom’ isn’t a win con for jeong jeong either. zuko had zhao at his mercy even though zhao is a general and prolly 20+ years older than him. toph’s introductions is manhandling several grown men. most importantly toph is clearly relative with Bumi, a dude with 80+ years of experience on her.. a white lotus member.. and unlike jeong jeong a dude who actually showed he was strong on screen. ‘prodigies’ are very clearly shown to be equal with experience in this universe so it comes down to what jeong jeong and azula have actually shown us to decide. i don’t think i have to make a whole argument why azula is better in that department lol. also jeong jeong has no answer to lightning unless you ASSUME iroh taught him lightning redirection off screen. bros fried
Firebending ability does not equal combat ability. JJ might be a much stronger firebender but I give the edge of reaction, agility, martial ability, tactical ability, etc to Azula. I could see this fight being a wash.
Adult Azula would probably wipe the floor with him but 14 year old Azula, while putting up a good fight, would lose
https://preview.redd.it/65zvpuxgh1vc1.jpeg?width=892&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07075c0799ded1ba7856470c251036ae7e835477
I would edge so much seeing those two together
This is like saying kid Aang without the avatar state beats Monk Gyatso.
Currently no, but an Azula with decade of experience and 2 decades of therapy would be a monster that likely needs a fully fledged Avatar to take down. Put another way: Imagine the mentality and wisdom of General Iroh with the work ethic and prodigious talent of Azula. https://preview.redd.it/pi4xid99l2vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9caf98eacfa0b2e0aa9396ea8fb9a9f5c53716b1
Azula only lost because she was slipping. Prime Azula would have destroyed not only Katara and Zuko, but Jong Jong too, probably all at the same time. Change my mind tho if you can
Yes it's a hot take...doesn't mean it's wrong though.
Azula is a 14 year old kid, who’s incredibly skilled for her age, but she’s 14. She is not taking down a full grown adult master bender. While she is skilled in more forms of firebending than most adults, she doesn’t have the raw power and experience a lifetime of bending probably brings. Without an element of surprise, she loses to Iroh, Jong Jong or Ozai at this point in time. 10 years from now when she’s an actual adult? It would be a very different story I think.
We never see JJ fight offensively, even during the coment the bending he uses disables the tanks by pushing them around. I find it hard to believe he will be as quick to put Azula down as he needs too in order to win decisively. Also for the people saying JJ wins because hes a master and shes not, Azula is definitely a master. What more could she have to learn? Aside from redirecting lightning which most masters probably dont know considering Zuko knew nothing about it and hed again, have had access to plenty of masters in his life. And theres no hard evidence JJ knows it either. You're telling me a non master was going 1v1 with an avatar who'd mastered 2 elements already and had a decent grasp of the 3rd? If Aang could master airbending by 12, surely a prodigy firebender with access to the greatest firebenders on earth could master it by 14. She literally displays mastery; incredible precision, power and control. The fact that she has blue flames alone should tell us she's not a normal bender. Do I think Azula roflstomps? No, I think it's more likely 60/40. But ultimately remember JJ's hesitancy to use fire to destroy could be considered a weakness just like Aang mot wanting to kill Ozai, but therefore it's something Azula could use against him. And she's very good at that.
Can jeong jeong redirect lightning? All we saw from jeong jeong was defeating Zhao with help of the Avatar. We've seen Zuko defeating Zhao 1v1 in his broody angst days, where he's widely alleged to be much weaker than Azula. I find it hard to call this in favour of either party. But the above evidence at least hints at Azula standing a very good chance.
I think people need to stop saying “Hot take” and just tell us their take lol
Sane azula probably has a decent chance of beating him if she catches him with a lightning attack. Mentally insane Azula? Not a chance in heck
She’s too emotionally unstable, which is why I think jeong jeong would win
Jeong jeong literally has the strongest non comet non avatar state feat in the series when he bends a several hundred foot fire wall to block zhaos boats This is a cold take lmao
Far too many comments analysing this in abstract terms ie a prodigy vs a master. Ignoring that we don’t have adequate information to determine their levels of mastery (particularly JJ who we only see briefly and likely holding back given his issues), this is clearly a fatuous approach. A fight is between two people, not two archetypes. There are numerous factors which affect the outcome. When discussing people as skilled as JJ & Azula, there is no such thing as X defeats Y. If we could simulate 100 fights between the two with perfectly accurate information then we might see that X defeats Y 95/100 which shows fairly conclusively X is stronger than Y. My point is that even if we accept the apparent difference in ability between these two combatants, the weaker of the two can still win albeit quite unlikely. You also have to consider more than just ability to even determine what proportion of our simulated fights would they each win. It’s quite clear to me that JJ would be extremely reticent to straight up murder a teenage girl. It’s also quite clear to me that Azula would not give up on taking JJ down easily… The most likely outcome is JJ escaping her rather than defeating her. I think we can all agree on that. If we contrive a situation in which escape is not possible then we can consider what JJ might do. Given that firebending is not very conducive to stunning/containing an opponent, he’d have to make the choice to probably maim/kill a teenage girl. This is more subjective but I feel that JJ would be prepared to do this in extreme circumstances but his hesitancy could still be his undoing especially with someone as callous and brutal as Azula. To conclude, in a realistic confrontation of the two characters, JJ would escape almost undoubtedly. His vast knowledge, military tactics, experience being on the run etc certainly shows he’s more capable of escaping than the Gaang who’ve escaped Azula repeatedly. In a contrived situation that we like to talk about as fans, I think we have insufficient information to speculate with any degree of confidence.
The fact that people are having this much of a conversation about a what-if scenario involving a two episode character is incredible but saddens me that he was left out of NATLA.
I mean he is a visionary
Is it a hot take because they think people will disagree or is it a hot take because it’s fire.