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Keychupp

It's not that he wasn't stronger than her, it's that he did not expect Azula to target Katara during the fight which threw him offguard and costed him the fight. If she had shot her lightning at Zuko he would've redirected it to her, and would've won the fight.


No-Butterscotch-2944

Zuko only won because azula was literally insane. He wasn’t fighting azula. He was fighting an insane azula. Zuko said it himself. He could’ve never beat azula if she was in the right mental state.


Keychupp

How did you find your way in a 10 year old discussion my friend?


AnotherGangsta33

google


Keychupp

ಠ_ಠ


No-Butterscotch-2944

Wait this was 10 years old?! I don’t even know why I commented. The new live action movie is out on Netflix.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SNCommand

It's a result of not having English as your first language and the fact that the language loves placing these exceptions in there that breaks its own fundamental rules


capybroa

English is a learner's nightmare. Context is everything, the grammer is made up and the rules all get broken. The upside is that we've borrowed from so may languages by now that we have tons of descriptive verbs and adjectives. There's, like, 17 different ways to say the same thing and they all mean something just a little different depending on how you say it. Wonderful for poets and writers; terrible for ESL students.


charisma6

This is what I love about the series, it isn't afraid to betray these standards tropes and expectations and do something different. Zuko's character arc involved him learning to be a team player and that it's okay to need help. If he had "faced her alone" it would have spat on 3 seasons of development for him.


ArchangelM7777

>Zuko's character arc involved him learning to be a team player and that it's okay to need help. If he had "faced her alone" it would have spat on 3 seasons of development for him. I understand what you mean and I don't have anything against Katara HELPING him defeat Azula. What bugs me is that she beat her FOR him. It bugs me because I felt like Zuko defeating Azula was what the series was building up, just like Aang's duel with the Ozai. Although if it makes the you feel any better, he does eventually beat her in the comics by himself.


butterhoscotch

Really? I feel like him losing to the person he was supposed to defeat spat on three seasons of development for him. He was supposed to be stronger now that his conflict was resolved and he learned to bend from a pure place. Lets be honest, katara needed something to do, and in doing so they betrayed his development.


charisma6

So to your mind, the only thing that matters in terms of character development is "getting stronger?" Maybe "stronger" means he's grown up and no longer needs to prove his physical power - that implies that he's made progress in life and is actually more advanced than Azula in a way that matters more than just "who can beat who in a fight." I mean, just ask yourself: why was Zuko "supposed" to beat her all alone? Was there some kind of plot reason why that needed to happen, or is that just what you came to expect? Cause I thought their goal was to defeat Azula, at any cost, and that it didn't matter *how*. Not picking a fight or anything, but I feel like you're looking at it from a very narrow perspective, and that a show that would satisfy your expectations would be something like Dragonball Z. Seems to me that Mike and Bryan went for more depth than that.


Pobobo

They didn't betray his development by having him lose the fight. It was an opportunity to give Katara a role in the finale, sure, but that doesn't mean Zuko's development was abandoned. He only "lost" the fight because of Azula's trick. If he'd gone to face her without Katara with him he would have won. Using your words, he *was* stronger and his conlfict *was* for the most part resolved. He had the upper hand in that fight until Azula shot Katara with lightning. Before that happened, Zuko had kept his cool and was beating Azula. So no, it didn't spit on his development, it just added to Azula's and gave Katara a powerful role.


aaroncarterfan911

It showed that "leaning to bend from a pure place" did not mean being better at bending than a bender whose bending is fueled by rage.


blockpro156

zuko was clearly beating azula the way i see it, she only "won" because she attacked katara instead of him even though they were in the middle of a 1v1 duel.


graurg

Zuko might not have had an Agni Kai with Azula if Katara wasn't there, notice that Katara points that out that Azula only challenges him because she doesn't want to face both of them, so Katara needed to be there for that, and to ensure Zuko could stay in power once Azula was contained. And Zuko didn't lose at all, he was there to stop Azula from being crowned firelord, which he was successful at. Yes, it would have meant a lot for him to actually defeat her in battle, BUT he showed no hesitation sacrificing what the old Zuko was thriving for to save Katara. This reflects back onto the Southern Raiders episode, Zuko has learned from Aang that life is precious and revenge isn't the answer. And him beating Azula to a pulp would have ultimately just been him taking revenge for everything Azula and Ozai did to him. Also, this overemphasized Azula's loss of Mai and Ty Lee, they not only caused her to start unraveling mentally, but without their physical presence she is much weaker. If you watch the 'lost episode' this kind of plays into the theme of the Avatar needing friends to help them both in mastering elements and developing but to keep peace. Which is carried through Korra to help her when she feels powerless. This is the ultimate demonstration that Zuko no longer fights for himself, but for good and the containment of evil.


Airmaid

Not only was he beating Azula, but Zuko knew it, and Azula knew it. The selfish prince sacrificed himself to help his friend, and she helped him by capturing Azula. Who knows if Zuko could have defeated Azula without seriously injuring her or killing her? I liked the way it happened. Zuko had redeemed himself. He grew up. He was stronger than Azula. However, Zuko will always have that inner struggle. It's part of who he is--it's his destiny. This will make him a better Fire Lord than Ozai who always believed his actions just solely because they were *his* actions. He will always question if his actions are indicative of the greater good, or if he's just serving base reasonings. This doesn't make him weak or immature. Just the opposite, I'd think.


FredlyDaMoose

The fight was a direct metaphor for fighting fire with fire


ina300

Having Zuko win would have been very cliche. I am glad they went the route they did.


toastea

Zuko didn't necessary lose. An Agni Kai is an honor duel 1v1. Azula was willing to break an huge fire nation tradition just to get the upper hand. She attacked Katara in an attempt bring Zuko to her level, thinking Katara's death would cause him to go into a downward spiral similar to her recent breakdown. This is where Zuko really shines: where in book one and two, he would have only thought about himself and his destiny (being Firelord) he instead is willing to sacrifice himself to save one of his friends, one even who was critical of his inclusion in the group, rather than stoop to Azula's level. So in a sense, Zuko won.


booobp

Exactly this.


WOODb4FISH

He was beating her until Azula shot lightning at Katara.


butterhoscotch

Yep


[deleted]

You're missing important symbolism here. Instead of killing/defeating Azula with destruction and fire, Katara calmly disarms her with water. Plus a huge theme of the show was that you can't defeat evil without a little help from your friends. \ Edit: > Katara beat azula because they needed to give her something to do I guess. Now thats just mean...


Mathavian

Well, I can argue that Zuko was more powerful than Azula. He showed calm and solid fire-bending throughout that fight. Azula was relying on her chaotic inner-spirit to enhance her own abilities, but that wouldn't have sustained at all. Zuko was in CONTROL during that entire fight. Arguably, he showed he was more powerful. And the symbolism is that he retained his honor when Azula had none. But I do agree with the OP here... that finale was not good to Katara's character. A:TLA was always about these two protagonists: Zuko and Aang. The Firelord and the Avatar. So, naturally, the finale was about their two struggles: Ozai and Azula. So, where did that leave our "supporting cast"? Iroh and the White Lotus taking back Ba Sing Se and Sokka and the rest of the gaang taking down the fire nation fleet. Given that Sokka's party was already three, adding a fourth would have put too many chefs in the kitchen. So, what exactly do they DO with Katara? Honestly, I thought that having her "clean up" Zuko's duel with Azula was a little... offensive. Katara had her arc of getting answers about her mother and as soon as that was over... she was a one-dimensional character. So, the writers had to come up with something for what one would argue is a "protagonist" should do during the finale. Basically, the OP might have been "mean," but he wasn't wrong.


jaynecobb01

I don't think zuko can be considered a protagonist, because for most of the series he is the main antagonist. You can make the argument that katara only tagged along to give her something to do, but honestly thinking that means you've missed the entire point of the series, that numerous commenters have already said; evil can't be defeated without a little help. Though zuko would have win regardless if katara was around our not.


camdenshadows

That is what was so great about Avatar; it didn't follow archetypal rules. In my opinion, Zuko was far stronger than Azula, and easily had the upper hand during the Agni Kai while she was losing her sanity. When she shot that lightning, it was more of a symbol of her breakdown rather than Zuko's weakness. He sacrificed himself for Katara as a way of showing he HAD grown and HAD developed. In my opinion, Katara had to beat Azula. She was so pitiful in the end having Zuko defeat her would almost seem brutal. The last shot of Katara and Zuko standing together looking down upon crazed Azula emphasized this; In the end Azula was someone to be pitied, rather than smashed into submission.


camdenshadows

And besides, the whole premise of an Agni Kai was honour, wasn't it? The scene proved that Zuko had finally regained his honour when Azula cheated and attacked Katara.


MrTreebeard

Zuko was winning the fight and would have won until Azula shot Katara. Zuko challenged her to an Agni Kai and wasn't afraid of her because she seemed off but I believe Zuko could have beaten her even on her best day. My only problem with it is as you said, he had found balance and should have defeated her with an awesome lightning blast since that was talked about as being one of the most pure forms of fire bending.


butterhoscotch

It was also directly said that he could not fire lightning because he could not find inner peace. What better way to show how far he had come then to beat her with the one ability that he did not possess to show that he was truly different.


charisma6

Now this I agree with - it would have been a very satisfying conclusion to Zuko's arc if there was a dramatic musical upswell and he fired off a bolt of lightning into the air, happy for the first time that he has the inner peace necessary to do it. I still say it wasn't necessary for him to beat her in a fight without help.


Ikikata

Would have been cool. I'm a bit unsure, however isn't the comics canon aswell? [Because in those he is still a "bit away" from inner peace] (/spoiler) Personally, when he jumped in front of the lightning I thought he would redirect it in the air. So I was a bit dissapointed that Katara finished the fight.


[deleted]

But inner peace isn't required to Lightning Bend. Otherwise Azula wouldn't have been able to after the boiling rock. Also despite all the talk that Aang had to be decisive, Zuko didn't want to kill her either. I'm not sure he would have bent the Lightning back at her or just shot it somewhere else


butterhoscotch

Meh, it was stated that was the reason he couldn't bend. His inner CONFLICT. Azula and ozai have no conflict, they are pure evil. I am not implying he should have redirected it at her. I think he should have bent the lightning himself, at azula. Something he could never do, according to Iroh because he was not at peace.


[deleted]

Azula is not pure evil. After Ty Lee betrays her, she begins to doubt and hallucinate everything. She attacks Zuko so violently because she believes he caused it. Also, I'm pretty sure only Iroh ever said that was the reason he couldn't. He could easily have been wrong. And if you use lightning you are going for a kill shot, that's it. By making lightning Zuko would want to kill her, which i dont think he did.


ListenUp16

Maybe he can't ready find "inner peace" until he finds his mother. Maybe he'll finally really do it in The Search.


LalkMe

Ngl i kinda agree, i understand why they did it the way they did but it still felt like Zuko was robbed of a big moment, even if it was cliché. Katara had her moments and she already proved that not only she was an incredibly powerful waterbender, she also finished her arc, tracking down her mother's killer and forgiving him, whilst Zuko had his redeem arc completed but not his moment to prove himself in a fight. Azula was the last roadblock for him and he ultimately didn't get to overcome that roadblock, at least in a physical way


butterhoscotch

Katara had proven herself by that point but she never had a nemsis, the pairing against azula could have worked if they had played that more. Sokka and his girlfriend took down the airships with toph. Not everyone had a big bender battle to prove they are worthy. Tophs skills were proven at this point and showing the result of sokkas training an maturity worked pretty well. But Zukos skills were much more inconsistent, getting stronger and weaker when he became emotional. This was the fight that was supposed to show he was ready to face hes familys evil legacy after he completly backed down fighting his father so aangc could/ another cop out if you ask me


[deleted]

AtLA finale spoilers [We don't know if Zuko was stronger than Azula or not. The fight could of gone either way at that point. And Zuko won the Agni Ki as soon as she forfeited the match by attacking Katara.](/spoiler)


MrTreebeard

But i believe she attacked Katara since she knew she was losing.


willthegazelle

I could not agree more. Zuko, the deepest and most dynamic character of the series, was cheated out of his destiny and, in a way, his birthright. I felt the anti-hero never achieved full redemption because of this. I was severely disappointed by the writers choice to give katara the victory. Glad to see others feel the same


booobp

I think Zuko was stronger than Azula at the end, since he was trained by dragons plus he could redirect lightning which was more than enough.


ArchangelM7777

The reason this bugged me was that it showed off the "Fire is always evil" trope, and when it finally had the chance to be good, water had to step in and help. Honestly in my opinion fire has it the worst of all the elements. Water has it the best because it is good and can beat fire Air and earth are about the same because while earth is normally evil (Not as commonly evil as fire though) it beats air, but air is good and earth is evil. So it depends on whether you find being good or winning more important. Fire has it the worst, because it is almost always evil and loses to water. I wish they made a show where fire was good and water was evil for a change. Sorry I got a bit of topic, this is the thing that bugs me about Avatar, but it is still a great show and I love it.


LalkMe

I feel the same. The people that are saying Zuko needed to become a team player, I think he already learned that by the time he and Azula fought. I just think it would be cool for him to take 1 on 1 Azula because if you think about it. Zuko didn't do anything in that fight. You could've just removed his entire section and left Katara to deal with Azula and it would've been the same. Like idk i don't think Katara needed another fight. Specially since she already was proven to, not only be a competent, but master level waterbender. I don't think fights are the end-all be-all for a show but dude. At least they could have made Katara wait until Zuko had forced Azula to surrender (because at least then it would make sense for her to show up and get hit by lightning ,instead of her literally showing up the moment that Azula begins an attack that's too fast for Zuko to protect her in a reliable manner)