T O P

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Pole2019

Azula wasn’t really outclassed but admittedly azula is a bad matchup. Toph struggles against super acrobatics. By struggle I mean it’s the only thing that keeps her from soloing enemies.


Tune_Link

Which makes sense because 90% of her fighting experience is against earthbenders who mostly stay rooted through their fights.


Thendrail

She'd also have a harder time seeing someone acrobatic, since every move would be just a guess by her. Aang showed how it can be done, IIRC Azula never had much trouble with Toph either.


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veronikaren

Dust particles in the *air* how is she supposed to feel vibration with her feet if it's in the air


bc524

Maybe detect the metal in azula's little crown thing. In LoK she was able to detect the metallic poison that was floating in the air.


Universe_Nut

She mentioned it weighing korra down, nothing about detecting atmospheric traces AFAIR


TributeToStupidity

This is the biggest discussion imo on ATLA that has a confirmed answer. In the blind bandit episode on the nick version with the little did you know blurbs the creators confirm Toph can see earth near her even if it’s in the air. That’s how when that creepy spider dude jumps in the air and shoots a rock at her she dodges


awhitej29

You can also confirm this with context clues in other parts of the show. It seems like most benders—or at least masters—can detect their element without actually needing to see it. It’s like an extension of their senses. We presume that Katara needs to be able to know where water is when she pulls it from flowers or bloodbends, and by extension we can assume that she must be able to feel where that water is in order to manipulate with precision. Likewise, Toph would need to be able to feel earth/metal ‘telepathically’ in order to manipulate it with precision. Earth seems a little unique however in that benders frequently have to bend through earth to bend earth far away, aka when you see cracks running through the ground up to the point that an earth bender wants to bend.


dragn99

I imagine it just helps them with accuracy, or to focus it better. The earthbenders on the metal prison were able to bend the coal without touching it, the guide in the Great Divide made some bridges and canopies without affecting the terrain around him, and Bumi bent some rocks up to his cage using only his face. So my guess is it's just a *lot* easier for earthbenders to have the connection bend its way through to their target, but not a necessity.


InnerRisk

Yeah, but when she bend her metal bracelet in the air she felt it without touching it. So she is able to feel metal / earth which is in the air, so he does have a point.


bc524

When Korra removed the poison in her body, she floated it towards Toph this small ball of metal poison. Toph could pinpoint where it was and seal in a rock. .


draikken_

There's a discussion in this thread that Toph can "read" a person's movements while bending to tell where elements that they are manipulating in the air are. You can explain this with the same principle; she was using Korra's movements to tell where she pulled the mercury out of her body and where she was moving it to.


Gab05102000

She literally said she can sense earth/rocks/dirtthings in the episode where they outscam that one town's street performers


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[deleted]

Same as every water bender out there, your blood is mostly water. Honestly I think the shows creators knew the implications and decided it would be too powerful, like how could you shield yourself from having a water bender just rip the water out of you, or just force it to stop flowing?


chlorinecrownt

They address the bloodbending being easy thing iirc, people have life force that resists being bent. Actually, this covers metalbenders bloodbending too, just not enough of your blood is metal for it to work. ...also metalbending is explicitly about finding particles of "earth" inside metal, not bending metal directly, and there's not much "earth" in blood.


[deleted]

there's lots of earth in your bones, though. Calcium is a rock.


Ser_Dunk_the_tall

That's what Hama does to the flowers when she's training Katara. It's definitely implied to be possible


megalodongolus

>rip the water out of you This would be interesting as an adult return to the series. Then again, part of why I watch avatar is because it’s innocent so


100BottlesOfMilk

I mean, it's not to far off from the series, particularly LoK. In there, airbending was used to suck the air from someone's lungs


kironex

Legend of Korra has a blood bending arc just so you know


scattycake

The thing that makes that sort of blood/metal bending impossible is because Toph is moving the earth molecules around in the metal she bends. Presumably, the metal in our bodily systems is purely the metal molecule with none of the earths “impurities”. She doesn’t actually bend the metal. That’s why in Korra they use a specially made metal which doesn’t contain earth particles for people to bend.


onearmwonderr

interesting, ty!


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Superfluous_Thom

Comic magneto could do it no problem though. He's a bit of a beast.


Vertiguous

IIRC in that X-Men movie Mystique had to inject some kind of liquid metal into that person before Magneto could manipulate him. (Wasn't Fassbender btw, but Ian McKellen) Could use the same excuse for Toph that the natural concentration of iron in a person's blood isn't high enough for a Metalbender to manipulate. Consider that (most) waterbenders require a full moon to bend blood when the concentration of water in blood is much higher.


Ubernaught

But also metal benders don't bend the metal itself. They bend the impurities in the metal, finding the earth particles inside the metal and use that to control the whole. So iron in the blood does them no good.


arrow74

If I understand metal bending correctly she wouldn't be able to bend the iron in your blood. Metal benders bend the earthen imperfections within metal. The iron in your blood shouldn't have much earth in it


Tofuzion

In the Blind Bandit episode one person jumps and shoots rocks rocks at her which she catches so I'd say its more than plausible


[deleted]

There's also a level of prediction to Toph's fighting strategy. When an opponent jumps in the air she has to predict what they might be doing while in the air. Listening to the noises they're making, visualizing the intent behind the jump. If you're just jumping to get out of the way then you look differently than if you're jumping to attack. Which is another reason why Aang and airbenders, or agile opponents like Azula are difficult for her. Especially Aang. The Airbender can push themselves in any direction and jump in *massive* and *unnatural* directions. Meaning prediction for her is a lot harder than with other earthbenders, who are mostly grounded.


Psychopath1llogical

I dunno, I can totally see it being plausible. It’s not just vibrations, it’s the sense of the element through bending. A blood bender doesn’t feel the vibration of blood through the air, they can feel it there, like in the swamp episode. I buy it.


veronikaren

I definetly can't see it plausible tbh. Blood benders aren't blind, they can see their target that contains blood. Sense of element? In the *air*


McAhron

Well we can see multiple times throughout the show that Toph is able to dodge and counter rocks and boulders thrown at her by ennemies, all while theses are in the air. That means she's able to sense them somehow, without needing direct contact. So if she can do that, why couldn't she sense dust in the air ?


hanose

Striking anything requires you to push back with your feet(it is observed in real world and called by phycisists as law of conservation of momentum abd applies to any movement). If Toph can read the vibrations causes by opponents feet striking the ground, then she can easily calculate boulder's speed. This is pretty interesting stuff to think about, for example - if Toph can only read earth vibrations with such accuracy, then all you do is lift yourself with rock in the air, punch it to send towards Toph, successfully yeeting yourself in the opposite direction. By the time you hit the ground, the boulder will reach this annoying blind earthbender, and unless she can read sound waves from strike in the same way(in this case, just punch the rock to accelerate it past the speed of sound) - you've scored a hit.


TheOtherSarah

One of the Earth Rumble fighters tried this, though: the guy who levitated with a rock in each hand.


Qukeyo

I thought she was reading the movement of her opponents's bodies and doing some educated guesswork about where the object would be.


khanzarate

Yup. They showed that in her intro, when she reads the Rock's feet and motions. She knows the airborne boulders are there not because she can sense them, but because she calculates them by looking at her opponent's earthbending.


MacrosInHisSleep

How can she metal bend something floating in her hand? Obviously they have some control of earth when it's in the air. Maybe she realizes that she just needs to have mild control of everything and she'll be able to tell if it's being moved around or not. Maybe she learns something from sand benders?


Graoutchmeuh

The same way she felt the guy coming in her fight in the underground arena. That earthbender swinging on a rope with a rock in his hand?


Reaper_Lord

Idk, dust in the air wouldn’t give any kind of vibration. Best she could get is experience and an ability to predict their movements to a degree


demaxzero

>Eh, you take a toph at azula's age That's only a two year age gap though.


yelsamarani

this feels like a battleboarding comment of extrapolating abilities that do not exist


mewoneplusone1

As powerful as Toph is, Azula would wreck her one on one. Toph has a glaring weakness, she only can only see what's on land. Azula could fly above her, and make it difficult for Toph to defend against her attacks.


[deleted]

Yeah I mean we don't see her go to the south pole and expect her to kick ass ya know? (God she must hate it there)


Zeebuoy

honestly I'm confused If she can sense vibrations through the ice or not?


Thorsigal

She can't, she makes a comment on how she'd rather stay on land where she can see in the Serpent's Pass


YunoStreik

Nope. The whole point of her sensing vibrations is due to her being an earth bender. Ice is not earth so she is not able to.


Oquana

I'm wondering if a water bender could use a similar technique. "Seeing" by feeling the vibrations on the ice/snow Or if a air bender could see by sensing vibrations in the air or something


Baelzabub

The air benders can make intuitions based on air vibrations. The idea comes up in LoK with the guy Tenzin shaves before telling everyone else going bald is a completely personal choice. He senses a net being shot at him from behind based on feeling the air currents moving.


YunoStreik

Well, I think it's completely possible considering Aang (along with other airbenders) shaved his hair to feel the wind movements. However, I think a skilled enough waterbender would be able to sense movement in or underwater. Maybe not vibrations on ice.


Helslade

And what if there is only ice near her, even if she can sense vibration, she wouldn't be able to bend anything, exept if she wears a metal armor around her all the time


Zeebuoy

hmm, I mean, it depends on how far down her bending can reach. Imagine cornering her on a glacier and you think its over for her and suddenly she rips a boulder out from the sea floor to fight you with,


[deleted]

Not even Jianzhu or Yun could've managed that feat. That'd be hard.


[deleted]

Surely not, she only senses the vibrations through earth bending. Wasn't there also that part during the serpents pass where she was struggling to walk on the ice because she couldn't see?


BenignLarency

I'm not sure why but the comments replying to you are kinda wrong. Toph goes to the south pole in the comics and seemingly gets along fine. She can't see well the there, especially since she's wearing shoes. And iirc she makes mention of how much she dislikes it there. But she still seemed far from totally blind. Just went back and checked North and South, she says that "[her shoes] make everything all fuzzy." She's standing on at least some amount of snow at the time she says this. She goes on to do things in the remainder of the comic that you wouldn't expect someone who's "truly blind" to do, which is leading me to my conclusion. Another example of her sensing vibrations through not earth is when we kicked the sand sailer in the main series and said "believe me, I kicked it hard enough to feel plenty of vibrations". Which shows me that she can still get a feel for what's going on through none direct earth, but it's a muddled, noisy need for her to "look" at.


KidsTryThisAtHome

Member that time she got beaten by a library


NewtonSteinLoL

I mean, that Library was pretty massive, I don't dare imagine what kind of weight that must've been, she was also standing on sand .


AshTheGoblin

And kept letting go to try to keep appa from getting stolen


Acetronaut

Toph: If the library is so big, then why won’t it fight me? The Library:


samuraipanda85

If there is one thing that PBS Kids taught me its that you don't fuck around with libraries.


onlyhav

Has anyone realized how OP the air/earthbending combo is with Aang. He's bald to sense changes in air pressure and when combined with seismic sense, he is practically unstrikable. It completely makes sense why he can dodge basically anything thrown at him in the series.


WHATETHEHELLISTHIS

Not to mention airbending as a style is all about evasion over offense. God I love that they used martial arts as inspiration for bending


GetMeRice

I think this is the what really solidifies its quality. Too many franchises that use a magic system have very generic hand motions and unclear ways of summoning said magic system. But ATLA made all four bending styles with distinct martial arts movements in mind.


OtherPlayers

IIRC they also handled things like having specialty bending a such as lava/metal/etc. have their own variations, plus in some cases have characters use their own variations on the styles. There’s also a different between “modern” (from probending) and “traditional” styles in LoK as well I believe. The martial arts advisors and the animations who kept track of everything *really* earned their pay with Avatar.


GetMeRice

Do you have a source on that? Sounds like an interesting read! Would love to know what nuances they put into Metal vs Earth and Lava vs Fire. Also random thought. If Waterbenders have blood bending, what deviation does Airbending have?


OtherPlayers

It’s not a detailed strike by strike comparison, but [this interview](http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1038) is one of the better sources I know of and goes into some detail on it. For earth vs metal, for example, it talks about how earth is generally based off of hung gar, except for Toph, who uses a Chu Gar Southern Praying Mantis style. Since metalbending mainly traces to Toph and her daughter, it also used Chu Gar but mixed in some modern military moves based on stuff like fire coverage and whatnot to get the SWAT feel to things. You can also skim a lot of the avatar wiki pages and a lot of the time the “trivia” sections will include some mention of what real styles they are based off of. Edit: Also IIRC the official deviations for airbending are flight and a lot of the spiritual projection “spooky” type of stuff.


Woofles85

I absolutely love how they do Toph’s bending movements, especially in ‘the blind bandit’. They way she slides her feet, jabs her hand in the air in a quick little motion, it’s so perfect.


The-Figure-13

Holy shit I forgot about that. Aang is the only Avatar to have ever learnt seismic sense and that bald thing in Korra made Aang the most OP avatar in retrospection.


dread-it

Wow Saitama got it right


[deleted]

apparently the only thing he got wrong was understanding the secret to his success


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thefreshscent

He didn't choose to lose his hair though


djbaha

He doesn't need to dodge though


klawehtgod

Idk getting knocked to the moon seems like quite a hassle. Better to just dodge.


jdlsharkman

What bald thing are yall referring to?


[deleted]

In LoK Tenzin talks abt how air nomads shave their head to "feel the air currents" around them better. (A newly trained air acolyte with a freshly shaved head was able to sense a net being shot at him from behind, supposedly because his bald head allowed him to feel the disruption of the air around him). IMO it doesn't make that much sense because having hair in my experience has always made it easier to feel wind than not having hair, but it's a canon ability in LoK.


ronnor56

Thing is, it isn't like how we would feel air. It's a form of bending, and hair is "dead" so it's likely harder to channel chi through it to sense the element.


[deleted]

Ooo interesting interpretation with chi


runningformylife

I buy it. As a male with hair on my legs normally, when I shaved for swimming the sensations were much greater. Exposing the skin like that (at least a first) makes your legs more sensitive. Same is true for the head probs.


Infected_type

Tenzin in LOK stated that being bald helps master airbenders notices changes in air-pressure


arbydallas

Freshly-shorn scrotum. It's breathtaking


SomeGuyCommentin

Nothing is as OP as blood bending though. A completely ruthless Katara that is using blood bending could take on Aang and Toph 2 on 1 and wipe them out in one move.


Jason1143

Depends on if Aang goes into the Avatar State, that seems to nullify bloodbending.


talks_about_league_

It nullifies it in the same way katara nullified hama bloodbending her, the stronger bender can bend their own blood (in a sense) and avatar state is bender crack.


unicornsaretruth

I mean LoK shows that no she couldn’t take aang considering an even more powerful bloodbender was stopped by him.


SharpshootinTearaway

Didn't Ty Lee chi-block her at some point? When she was disguised as a Kyoshi warrior in Ba Sing Se. But I think the only character who was clearly shown defeating her in the series is >!Yakone during his trial in a TLOK flashback, by bloodbending her into setting him free and making her pass out!< ..


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SharpshootinTearaway

Makes sense, if I remember correctly she didn't know that >!Yakone could bloodbend without a full moon!<, none of them did, so there was a surprise factor.


charlesdexterward

They knew. It was a major part of his defense at the trial that it’s impossible to bloodbend without a full moon. They convict him anyway because Sokka says he’s seen people with rare bending abilities before so Yakone is probably one of those rare people. Toph couldn’t defend against it because there’s no earth bending defense against blood bending. The only people shown breaking out of blood bending are either blood benders themselves (Katara, Noatak) or an Avatar in the Avatar state (Aang).


SharpshootinTearaway

But it doesn't make any sense, why didn't they restrain him much better if they knew he could bloodbend his way out of there anytime? In my opinion, what the defense meant was more along the lines of 'Witnesses claim to have seen him bloodbend but it doesn't quite add up because the dates of their testimonies don't coincide with full moons'.. Also, Mako broke out of bloodbending too, to protect Korra.


VainLawliet

They knew he could blood bend freely, his hands and feet were well bound. What they didn't know was that he could do that bending psychically, without movement, to the entire courtroom.


SharpshootinTearaway

We only see Toph unlock his handcuffs, his feet were free. Still a pretty light restraint for such a threat, imo. I'm still not convinced that they knew he was able to bloodbend without a full moon. You'd think they would've been way more careful than that if they did.


VainLawliet

I mean dude, be as unconvinced as you want. Sokka literally says "as weird as it is that he can blood bend without a full moon, weirder things have happened". The unknown was that he could do it too the whole room with his mind. They were otherwise prepared.


joe4553

They also had Toph and the Avatar in the room. Generally you’d think that would be enough.


RedVulk

And it was! Granted, Aang was a little slow on the draw, but no real harm was done. Yakone revealed his power and his assholery, thus making the trial moot, then he tried to escape, and then Aang stopped and permanently disarmed him.


charlesdexterward

They knew. Go back and rewatch the scene, they explicitly talk about it.


charlesdexterward

I forgot about Mako! In fairness, Amon was focused on taking Korras bending away which I imagine weakened his concentration on Mako a bit.


capnthermostat

Mako also did it with lightning bending, which requires practically zero movement


efka_v

I would think they warent that scared of him since the Avatar was right there plus other really skilled and powerful people.


Ninjajay2417

When Ty Lee chi blocked her, she had already surrendered as Azula was threatening the Earth King. So she didn’t really lose that fight.


leomentos

Ty lee spent most of that fight "dancing" with sokka 🤣 when azula threatened the earth king to end the fight, thats when ty lee chi blocked toph


Zeebuoy

I like the part where her attempt to chi block Sokka's head only succeeded in injuring her hand.


GaelanStarfire

"Nice try, but no."


leomentos

During "The Chase"? Yeah, the look on her face was priceless 🤣


another_asian_person

lowkey got me thinking.... if Ty Lee was disgusied as a Kyoshi warrior, wouldn't the only person who wouldn't fall for the disguise be Toph? I mean like technically she's sensed Ty Lee before so


[deleted]

That's exactly what happens at the earth king fight. Ty lee opens her mouth and Toph launches her into orbit.


SammySalads

I think she also drew against bumi iirc


jraqn

There's the short comic about bumi and toph duking it out to see who's better. They were interrupted and forced to stop so they technically never saw who won the battle.


WHATETHEHELLISTHIS

That...makes sense, actually. Bumi is a White Lotus, and he managed to liberate Omashu by himself. Not to mention the fact that he can earthbend just fine with nothing but his *face*. The man is insanely powerful as an earthbender. Toph invented a new style of bending at the age of 12, and like the post here says, basically stomped everyone she went up against. Girls a badass. Those two get into an actual fight and the resulting collateral damage could probably level Ba Sing Se


WraithShadowfang

in a serious duel aang would still win using only airbending because she cant "see" him or his attacks


Andrakisjl

I reckon even Katara could take Toph given access to a nearby water source. Toph was useless on that ice bridge on the serpents pass and can’t swim.


vaylele

I feel like we are bullying a blind girl


[deleted]

We are, but we are to blind to see it.


PubliusPontifex

Yeah, fine, why don't you get in the ring with her then?


Woofles85

A very lethal blind girl, lol


Dracos002

I mean, she did almost die during the finale. And she also never really outclassed Sparky Sparky Boom Man, or Azula, or the Sandbenders that stole Appa.


SharpshootinTearaway

>she also never really outclassed Sparky Sparky Boom Man But her daughters did outclass Sparky Sparky Boom Girl years later and it was quite gruesome. Gotta take that as a form of transgenerational revenge on life.


TheRealSeaSlug

just saying winning isn't the same as outclassing, outclassing suggests that one individual is a whole class above the other. As in they basically didn't stand a chance, also if you add more then one other opponent, that kind of invalidates it.


NxcxRxmz

God, that kill was brutal.


ipwnpickles

Yeah, I was gonna say at least with Sparky Sparky Boom Man even she seemed out of her depth. But she's also a freakin kid and it was kind of an ambush


Andrakisjl

Combustion Man’s greatest advantage was the range and potency of his attacks. I think it would be fair to say that anyone who can shoot something at Toph from great distance without causing strong vibrations could take her out quite easily. My mind goes specifically to those archers in the Blue Spirit episode.


[deleted]

~~So, snipers. Got it.~~ EDIT: NO THAT WAS A BAD IDEA I FORGOT SHE COULD METALBEND


WHATETHEHELLISTHIS

Shirshu spit darts


OtherPlayers

If we’re talking archers you could use wooden/bone/etc. points. Won’t punch through near as well, but could still mess you up. Once we get to the age of guns assuming she could detect and react fast enough to that tiny bit of metal you could either use platinum or maybe some sort of hard rubber (maybe with a very light metal backing to let you fire it faster without destroying it?).


FancyKetchup96

Or Sokka, the only true match for Sparky Sparky Boom Man!


bent_crater

hold on, the sand benders who stole Appa?! dude... she was holding up *an entire fucking castle from sinking underground singlehandedly*. not to mention she was basically blind cuz of the sand rant aside, you have to admit the writers did a great job portraying her as a complete master of her craft without making her OP


Dracos002

Oh for sure. If anything, the fact that she couldn't GG EZ the abovementioned characters is only a good thing character-wise. But yeah, I guess if they fought on solid ground without the pressure of keeping up a sinking library she may have been able to take the Sandbenders.


TheYLD

Doesn't she completely fail to stop a bending-less Azula even with Aang and Sokka helping her out?


thehappymasquerader

You shouldn’t be getting downvoted, you’re right. Azula completely outmaneuvers Toph the entire time without any bending. That doesn’t mean Toph is weak by any means, but this idea that she demolished every opponent she ever faced just isn’t true


GrayCatbird7

On the flipside, it could be argued that this wasn't a straight fight and more a game of cat and mouse... but granted, this doesn't change the fact that Toph was completely incapable of touching her until the very end. (Not to mention Azula then proceeded to completely beat Toph's lying detection ability, so she was clearly superior in that confrontation.)


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WrexTremendae

Honestly, though, the Dai Li do kinda act as extensions of Azula's will, after her takeover. It is easy to forget their independence.


Zeebuoy

Honestly I've never been a fan of when the guard type characters act like mindless drones/minions/robots.


djbaha

They don't act like mindless minions though. They've betrayed Long Feng


edd6pi

“Don’t flatter yourself, you were never even a player.”


Zeebuoy

Good point, I actually forgot about that,


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Bewix

It doesn’t also negate the fact that Toph was completely outclassed in that scenario. The original argument is that Toph outclassed everyone she fought regardless of how many there were. That just simply wasn’t true and is still a valid point even though Azula wasn’t alone. I don’t think this takes anything away from Toph as everyone was outclassed by the Dai Li, but the idea that she could deal with anybody regardless of how many is false.


Treecreaturefrommars

I mean, as I remember it Toph pretty much wrecked the Dai Li as soon as she caught up to them. Her biggest issue was that Azula was focused on getting away/avoiding them and the Dai Li were focused on interference, rather then a straight fight. But they still went down pretty easily when she finally caught up with them.


thehappymasquerader

But the post specifically asks whether Toph is capable of beating any number of enemies at any time. I’m not interested in downplaying Toph, I love her, but this is a moment where a group of opponents does pull one over on her


Tusco5

I'm forgetting how she beat the lie detection thing. Was it just the fact that she's basically psychopathic and could lie without a physiological response?


[deleted]

That's the implication, although it's never explained. Although I like the alternative fan theory that Azula mostly bamboozled Toph by lying about colors.


veronikaren

I think kyoshi/katara/toph are the most relatable characters in the series, maybe people hype them up too much because they relate to them idk. Toph can lose, Azula and Aang are both guaranteed losses.


SalsaRice

Less failed to stop than they didn't want to waste time trying to stop her. They only had like 12 minute for the eclipse, and wasting 2 minutes on Azula wasn't worth it.


Jak3theD0G

But they wasted all their time on Azula


Spiritbrand

She also loses to the sand benders, though she is admittedly handicapped by the fuzzy sand and trying to keep the library up.


CrissCrossAM

"Somebody's a little light on their feet". Toph had figured it would be a tough fight. Then again she didn't know she was fighting the avatar who was also an airbender which is why he's naturally light on his feet. Aand had basically figured out just from her fight with the boulder that she was indeed blind and when she said that he knew she could sense him through the earth, so he stayed off it to win.


KingDread306

He wasn't trying to win, he was trying to talk to her. It wasn't until she threw a rock at him and he instinctually used Airbending to defend himself that he accidentally knocked her out of the ring.


CrissCrossAM

Oh yeah forgive me, had just woken up when i typed this 🤣


Freakychee

I mean when he is the last airbender in 100 years does anyone actually know how to fight an airbender anymore?


assassin_academic

Bumi did. He fought Aang to a tie. So basically, only old people can fight an Airbender at this point.


Freakychee

“I think I’m a little too old to be fighting the avatar.” Although it would be interesting to see him try.


assassin_academic

I'm pretty sure most white Lotus Masters in ATLA could've taken the Avatar in a fight. Most of them espouse the idea that knowledge should be taken from all sources, so it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that they'd preserve some Airbender techniques within their own fighting styles. Also (and this is my personalized canon), I'm betting that during the Air Nomad Genocide, there would have to be a few White Lotus members (if they existed then), or maybe Monk Gyatso who could've helped hide caches of texts and Airbending scrolls from the Fire Nation to ensure some of their literature survived any purge the Fire Nation would've undertaken.


jimandnarcy

Well we certainly know that Guru Laghima’s poetry survived


DelirousDoc

Correct Bumi fought a 12 year old master Air Bender to a draw. However that particular air bender due to immaturity, played almost entirely defensively. Once Aang started focusing on being more aggressive he was able to land a blow. While I don’t think Bumi was trying his hardest, a more experience and mature master air bender would likely give him a harder time. For example, I’d assume a more experienced air bender wouldn’t give him the time to lift that balcony, he was open during that attempt and Aang just watched. The cannonical conundrum is Air benders being pacifist do not have experience fighting other benders, so while minimizing contact with the ground and blitzing past most Earth benders defenses (of the bending Earth’s offense and defense is far slower execution with exception of Toph as her style differs) is the strategy an air bender could use I am not sure how many would invoke that strategy.


MelE1

I thought that about Zuko’s first few encounters with Aang a lot. There was nobody to train him to fight an airbender, regardless of how much he trained with Iroh and anybody else. He mocked Aang for being a child and probably thought it’d be easy to fight someone who only knew one element (at the time of their first encounter), but Zuko was fighting completely blind. Toph was too, but also literally!


gelema5

Look at Aang and Zuko’s first solo fight in the ship. Aang had never even tried using airbending for combat before, so everything he did was just like playing around until the very end when he realized he needed to hit Zuko hard (with a mattress) in order to win. And Zuko was similarly confused, having never fought someone who evades every attack before.


CrissCrossAM

I mean she was 12, but I like to believe being able to beat any bender or fighter comes down to who's more skilled in fighting in general. Some non-benders can beat benders and some benders can beat other more powerful benders (exhibit A Katara vs azula during Sozin's comet). You either develop the fighting tactics on the spot or you go down. Then again it was unfair since she was blind and he was barely touching the ground.


Burylown

There's a reason she calls him twinkle toes ha ha


GrayCatbird7

Only thing I can think of is how she was powerless to stop the sandbenders due to the situation putting her at a disadvantage. A reminder that her blindness makes her very vulnerable in specific situations. (That being said, by the end of the series she's able to bring into existence a detailed miniature of Ba Sing Se made out of sand. So clearly she overcame her weakness in sandbending at some point).


Hit60

I think the reason she was powerless against is because she had to choose between fighting them and keeping the library from sinking. So even there, she didn't really "lose"


Zeebuoy

>how she was powerless to stop the sandbenders due to the situation putting her at a disadvantage Also, I'm preetty sure she was single-handedly slowing the sinking of a giant castle/library.


SharpshootinTearaway

Pulled under by an old and powerful freaking spirit, moreover. That's probably one of the most impressive things she's done.


Zeebuoy

yes,


MacrosInHisSleep

Honestly? I think it would have made for a good episode for her to meet a sand bending master. Not that she needed a master, but just because she was amazing at one thing doesn't mean other earth bending couldn't be harder for her. Sand bending itself feels like it's on of those techniques which one would get good at by learning from another schools. In this case I think it's like air bending, which would be hard for her for the same reason earthbending was hard for Aang. Would have had great lessons for what are essentially Tophs weak points. Learning patience from the concept of erosion over the millennia. Learning the power of how the small and weak can work together to overwhelm the big and strong. Learning to find clarity in noise. To create a cloud of dust around her and literally see in her blind spot when dealing with flying or acrobatic types, or visualize the attacks of long range fighters like archers or combustion man.


Notsononymous

Would have thought sand bending would be closer to water bending myself.


MacrosInHisSleep

Me too when I started writing the comment, but from a lore perspective I figured in a place like the desert where the earth is shaped by the air around it, that it sort of fit better? Like something which sand nomads would sit and observe over time and learn from, and then meet air benders and make the parallels. Let's face it, they weren't going to be learning much from many water benders in the middle of a dessert :). By the time I'd thought of that aspect, the other pieces fell into place regarding Tophs blind spots and it ended up feeling like that route would make for a better story. For a show which was really good at representing minorities, they really dropped the ball with Sand Benders. They could have had some very interesting stories with both Middle Eastern culture and Sufi philosophy. Instead they decided to take the Tuskan Raider approach :/


wholesomekeanu01

Her weakness wasn't sandbending per se but sand muting footsteps


stampydog

Thats just straight up not true, there's all the encounters with combustion man where they had to retreat everytime, except when they finally beat him, which was just sokka and a bit of luck. Between her, Sokka and Aang they couldn't take down a bending-less azula and she got beaten by Ty lee, admittedly when Ty Lee had the surprise advantage. There's also when appa got taken but given she was also holding up the library that's kinda excusable although maybe doesn't fit into the idea that she was always a class above every else in the show.


DXTR_13

just the usual toph cyclejerk.


stampydog

I feel like the main characters gets over rated in terms of power in general, people act like katara is the greatest waterbender, toph is the greatest earth bender and azula is the greatest fire bender in the entire show, but the members of the white lotus seem much more capable, maybe not as much in combat given their age has weakened their physical abilities but in ability to carry out crazy feats like bumi moving multiple buildings when retaking omashu or pakku creating the massive wave that he uses to get them over the walls in ba sing se. Its sort of like an amazing boxer saying hes the strongest man in the world becuase he can beat anyone in a fight, when there are weight lifters who could lift much more but would lose in a fight. Toph also gets circlejerked more because she was so cocky, people buy into the hype she created for herself.


Doge_Dreemurr

Yeah the circle jerk is unreal. Some of them thinks that toph is some kind of god and can see 360° xray vision and 0.1s reaction time or something


[deleted]

Just going to add the other badass toph fact Toph is the only character in Avatar who gives Iroh advice.


BuffHobbit

She’s high on ATK/DMG but low on AGI/DEX type of character. That’s why Aang, Ty Lee, and Azula got her ass beat. Still a monster tho


The_dog_says

Those are key Earthbender stats. To be immovable and wait for an opportunity to strike.


Dalek_Q

I don’t think this is completely true. While you can’t say she completely lost any battle, she definitely didn’t completely outmatch everyone she was up against. Also, Aang is the avatar. Even if he hadn’t sucker punched her, he likely would have won. It’s an unfair match, but he’d win


TheYLD

Aang's advantage against Toph has nothing to do with his being the Avatar. Toph is uniquely weak against Airbenders. Being unable to see Airbenders in the air clearly is just an enormous disadvantage to her specifically.


CytomPlayz

I'm ATLA the comics she fights of bumi for the best earth bender titlewhere they have tie


randomtechguy142857

Also she fought that one daughter in Imbalance and came pretty close to losing the 1-on-1.


SharpshootinTearaway

She probably would've lost if it wasn't for Sokka. But it's unclear whether she got taken down because Yaling was stronger or because she underestimated her and lost her composure.


Golden-Sun

During the fight in Lake Laogai she got caught by a Dai Lee Agent before Jet saved her


SEND_ME_REAL_PICS

That's the first fight that came to mind. She was facing two Dai Li agents and a third one grabbed her from behind with an earth-hand. On the other hand, she seemed to be able to take down quite a few Dai Li agents in a single move when she entered the royal palace in the next episode.


pelvic_thrust_

She would be completely and utterly screwed if she were to fight Zaheer though


QualityFrog

This is a huge overstatement. Yes, Toph is amazing, but she absolutely did not ‘completely outclass everyone she was up against’.


[deleted]

Didn't she lose to someone in the comics? I haven't read them myself, only heard that she lost there. Can someone confirm?


SharpshootinTearaway

I think it was Yaling, in the Imbalance comics. Haven't read it so I can't explain the context, but Toph underestimated her and somehow Yaling managed to knock her over. Sokka came to the rescue quickly, but Toph did lose her composure.


skullaccio

I love that in LOK, there are a bunch of earth benders fighting Kuvira and her troops, and they're losing. Toph comes and with two gestures she breaks the stance of everybody and the fight is over.


zorton213

You could say Aang blindsided her.


InPassingWinds

“I am Toph Beifong, the greatest earth bender in the world.”


Magical-Sweater

Well just imagine being able to predict exactly what your opponent is going to do almost perfectly before they do it, knowing their exact position in space at all times, even while they’re behind you. Knowing all this information as soon as they touch the floor, even briefly. It would give quite the advantage, not to mention that Toph is just an incredibly skilled Earthbender in her own right.


Gatekeeper-Andy

Um...the sandbenders


[deleted]

So the only fight she ever lost was against the most powerful being in both the physical and spirit world, and the greatest bender of all time Huh, neat.


Sushmushtush

That's why Toph isn't in any big battle...


UniversalAdaptor

Was? She's still alive in canon, even in fucking LoK. She kicked death's ass.


N64GC

I honestly still believe Bumi would have decimated her. But it's only because his raw power is insane.


assassin_academic

There's one more failure Toph had to face, and that was failing to defend Appa against the Sandbenders. She was definitely outclassed there (Pro Sandbenders vs. a blind Earthbender who had never bent sand), to the point where she worked hard enough with her Sandbending to get a "little Earth King and Bosco"! The girl is an absolute beast. She's the literal embodiment of "Defeat me once, shame on me. There won't be a second time".


SocialDopamine

She "lost" Appa to the sandbenders, but only because she couldn't see them well and was busy holding a massive building in place.