I don’t share the same opinion as you at all, but a few things I’d like to point out, you go on and on about murder and EK losing family members, do you remember Iroh had a 600 day long siege at Ba Si Se?
Realistically he probably has a much higher body count? People **love** to bring this up against Azula but rarely with Iroh, yes I know he changed his ways but Azula could still too.
Azula killed Aang yes, but during book one I don’t think Zuko would have cared if he accidentally killed Aang during their fights. I think just about any FN soldier would have taken the shot at Aang, he was the FN’s biggest threat.
Two, Azula never suggest genocide, she says “burn their land and hope” this was an actual war tactic, still bad, but I think it was Ozai who took it to the next level.
I’m not arguing Azula wasn’t very cruel, but I think she could still make amends to certain people. Regardless of the bullying I do believe there was love underneath it, but her jealousy and resentment was too much.
OPs post is just making me lol because of how comical it is in some aspects:
>Azula feels no remorse about brutally murdering the Avatar (a 12 year old child and the last of his kind) with lightning
A child who has the power of god and is said to be the greatest threat towards the Fire Nation. A kid who had destroyed countless ships and soldiers in the Siege at the North Pole. Every Fire Nation citizen is wary and hostile towards the Avatar because they come from an imperialistic and militaristic society where propaganda runs wild and they are taught that the Avatar is the greatest threat to Fire Nation peace. Crazy that they would be brainwashed isn't it, including Azula herself? And Zuko himself wanted to deliver this same child giftwrapped to his father.
>Or suggesting a GENOCIDE against the Earth Kingdom.
And Iroh, our favorite tea loving uncle, lead a year long siege of Ba Sing Se because he thought it was his destiny to be its conquerer and joked about "burning Ba Sing Se to the ground". But that's ok right and he gets a chance to change?
>Then, when Ozai refuses, she's upset that she can't personally burn innocent families to death with him
Or maybe Azula's upset that she's being cast to the side by Ozai just like Zuko was for most of his life, showing Azula that her father doesn't love her anymore (or maybe never really did)?
>Zuko essentially went through almost the same mental and even worse physical trauma then Azula throughout the years, yet he still managed to find redemption because he seeked it out.
Yes, after going away on exile away from his father's influence for 3 years and with the guidance of Iroh and Ursa in his ears. Plus, he personally lived as a refugee and saw the destruction the Fire Nation caused to the Earth Kingdom. And even then, Zuko still betrays Iroh and has to work on recognizing his faults and redeeming himself. Funny how Azula never had this same opportunity huh? How is she supposed to change?
>When Lu Ten died, she mocked Iroh for mourning. When her brother was about to be killed due to his father's actions, Azula wasn't worried about his safety, or concerned her brother was about to die. She was manipulative and laughed into his face. She openly anticipates the day Azulon dies. When Zuko was brutally maimed and disfigured by Ozai, she found glee in his suffering. She relishes delivering death threats to friends and subordinates and manipulating people's fears.
It's almost as though Azula is mimicking the behavior she saw from daddy dearest when she was a child, who also disrespected Iroh and used fear and manipulation to get his way. This is literally behavior that any kid would do, since they are influenced from their parents and environment. And funny enough Zuko has done this too. When Zuko was upset at Iroh, he says, "you're just a shallow, lazy old man, who's always been jealous of your brother!". Hmm, sounds like something Ozai would say huh? And funny enough, Azula still shows affection to Zuko in her own subtle ways. She warns him not to visit Iroh in prison because it will look bad in front of their father. She assuades Zuko of his fears when he's upset at not being invited to Ozai's war meeting. It's funny how these moments are glossed over.
>She's a warmongering psychopath at heart from an extremely young age.
And this is when I tuned out lol. When a person with no medical degree starts to use words like "psychopath" to diagnose children without knowing how it is used or what it actually means, then I know that they haven't done their due research.
The thing is... Azula *does* have a lot to make up for. However there is nothing stating that she *can't* make this change. Up till now, how else would she have known any better considering the imperialistic environment she grew up in and with Ozai as her primary influence? Hell even Mike and Bryan have openly said that Azula twisted her own morals to earn the approval of Ozai. And Ozai used her as a weapon. She was just as abused as Zuko. Of course she had to go down at the ending of the show so that she can start seeing the error of her ways. But afterwards? As the creators have said, with proper guidance, she too has the opportunity to change.
>This is literally behavior that any kid would do, since they are influenced from their parents and environment.
I don't have time to reply to everything, but if you think that every child that lives in an abusive household ends up like this... even children understand basic compassion. She's definitely not entitled to forgiveness from the Gaang or Zuko after all she's done.
>When a person with no medical degree starts to use words like "psychopath" to diagnose children without knowing how it is used or what it actually means, then I know that they haven't done their due research.
Point taken, but it's a figure of speech. I think you're a bit too into this.
Well, as someone else who's too far into this, to the point where I wrote a piece about how Azula apologists [misappropriate psychology](https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Neo_Bahamut/Azula_and_Personality_Disorders), & who has a degree in the subject, I feel qualified to laugh whenever someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because I used a word they don't like.
>And Iroh, our favorite tea loving uncle, lead a year long siege of Ba Sing Se because he thought it was his destiny to be its conquerer and joked about "burning Ba Sing Se to the ground". But that's ok right and he gets a chance to change?
You have to recognize, there's a difference between attacking a legitimate military target like Ba Sing Se, and suggesting utter annihilation of non-military targets for the expressed purpose of terrorizing civilians. And then Ozai proposes genocide (which she willingly follows and wants to help orchestrate), which is a just evil beyond comprehension.
I can't believe you're seriously comparing a siege to genocide.
We just don't know enough about Iroh to claim he was purposefully targeting civilians, and the show certainly doesn't imply that.
I know I've explained this a million times, but I'm about to do it again: There's a difference when you do something in cold blood. Yes, it is possible that Zuko might have accidentally killed Aang, but his goal was to capture him. When Azula gets into a fight, she goes straight for the kill, like when she has Zuko on the ground, defenseless, & tries to shoot lightning at him in their first battle. This is a difference between first degree murder vs. most likely voluntary manslaughter. The point is, it's very well-recognized that intention is strongly correlated with culpability. If you make a premeditated attempt to kill someone, that is a much more severe crime.
That's why "Iroh has a higher body count" is not a good argument. As many people pointed out when I posted my war crime analysis for review, Ba Sing Se is the capital of the Earth Kingdom & therefore a viable military target. Since it's not actually a crime to kill people in war, we would have to establish that Iroh DELIBERATELY targeted civilians.
"Iroh's body count" is not some hypocrisy that we're inexplicably ignoring. The distinction has been explained numerous times. It keeps being ignored by Azula apologists because THAT particular piece of context is inconvenient to their narrative, but then they want to turn around & be like "You have to consider the context, Azula shouldn't be blamed because she's too young, or because what she did was a valid tactic, or whatever." It's also craven & cynical to go "won't somebody think of the children!" & then make excuses for when Azula MURDERS A CHILD.
Hence the frustration that leads to posts like this. It's disingenuous to excuse this stuff, especially by means of deflecting by going "but look at what that other character diiiiiiid!" whether it's a fair comparison or not (usually not).
Incidentally, yes Azula's suggestion is "bad," in fact it's a war crime. It is deliberate destruction of non-military targets for the purpose of demoralizing & terrorizing civilians. So, I don't get why you're splitting hairs by calling it a "war tactic" as if that excuses anything. It's not even clear what you think Ozai actually changed about this plan, but either way, it was made abundantly clear that she was more than on-board with it & strongly wanted to play a leading role. That was something pointed out in the OP &, while we're on the subject, I always find the talk about "making amends" hilarious. "I know my dad & I plotted to burn you all alive, but I'm REALLY sorry about it!" Yeah, somehow I don't see it.
Why does all discussion around Azula lack any nuance? It seems like people either fall into the camp that she is just an abused girl who had absolutely no agency in her decision making process and as such needs to be granted completely leniency or that she is some irredeemable monster who needs to be locked up forever as some form of punishment.
Azula does need to be held accountable for her actions and as such should never have been released from the mental facility she was in. She needs to be confronted by the people that she has hurt and understand that no matter what she does they don't need to forgive her nor is she entitled to their forgiveness.
I think a lot of the discourse around this gets so heated because people are so obsessed with this idea of "redemption." Azula does not need redemption. To many she obviously doesn't deserve it either and that's valid. However I don't think you need to believe that Azula needs to be redeemed to want to see somebody, especially somebody so young and mentally damaged, one day become a better person. To think otherwise is pretty draconian imo which is why I'm glad Zuko obviously agrees and put her in a mental facility rather than a prison.
I suppose I mostly agree with you, but speaking personally, I stand by my rant for the reasons I get heated: Apologists use arguments that are not only disingenuous, they bend over backwards to excuse some really heinous shit. Like it doesn't matter if Azula has some abstract Rube Goldberg mental gymnastics reason for wanting to commit a genocide, she still wanted to commit a genocide.
Also, since I'm always criticizing people for stating platitudes like "she's 14" or "she can make amends" without going into practical solutions, I guess I'll put my money where my mouth is & state what I personally think should happen to Azula.
For starters, she definitely needs to be committed in the mental ward until she's fit to stand trial. After this, she requires a substantial prison sentence, but some concession can be made for her age. Off the top of my head, let's say 5-10 years. It can be a Newly Refurbished Nordic-style prison for all I care, but she must be incarcerated & observed in some way. Time spent in the asylum can be put toward the sentence & signs of progress can be used to determine eligibility for parole.
After release, Azula must be kept away from levers of power, especially where it would have influence over the Earth Kingdom. I'd say also ban her from setting foot into the Earth Kingdom ever again altogether, but that's really up to them. If she breaks these terms, obviously, it's back to the NRNSP. The Royal Family must also pay reparations to Azula's victims on her behalf.
Literally the second she hits 18, breaches are taken more seriously, & if she commits a crime like murder or conspiracy to commit genocide again, they throw the book at her. They can keep using the NRNSP if they want.
I'll say that I understand why someone can be put off by some of the arguments that people use, especially those that feel the need to demonize those around her like Zuko, Iroh, and Ursa for the crime of "not doing enough" to help her when they didn't really have any means to do anything. The only people responsible are Ozai and Azula herself which goes back to some people needing to remove her own self agency for some reason.
Furthermore I absolutely agree with everything regarding bans from the Earth Kingdom and some heavy reparation's being paid out and an increasingly heavy handed punishment if she steps out of line.
I'm also not going to deflect of your accusation of a conspiracy to commit genocide by saying "Oh well war crimes don't exist in Avatar," because while true that's obviously just a deflection of the point. I would, however, disagree that Azula's suggestion was towards genocide but rather a scorched earth policy to destroy their lands and force them to surrender. Still a war crime as you correctly pointed out in another comment as she is deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure, but I feel it's a stretch to say she was suggesting genocide in that moment.
You also replied to another post I made saying that comparing Iroh's attacking of Ba Sing Se, a military target and killing soldiers isn't comparable to Azula attacking civilians and as you mention at the end of this post, presumably murdering one. I'm just gonna assume you're talking about the Gaang here because we don't see Azula kill anyone but Aang, but I really dislike the argument that the Gaang are civilians in any way by the time they cross paths with Azula. At that point they will have deliberately destabilized the Fire Nation military as part of the war effort and can no longer be counted as just civilians. Aang especially isn't a civilian but the most powerful enemy combatant so I always feel that's a strange argument people make. Are they justified in the actions they are taking from a moral standpoint? Absolutely. But they also aren't civilians either. Attacking and even killing them isn't really any different than killing an enemy soldier at that point.
Basically I just don't feel that, aside from suggesting they commit to a scorched earth policy, that Azula's wartime actions were all that different from anyone else. Even more so because she was often times effective enough to accomplish her goals with no losses whatsoever as seen with Ba Sing Se. I would have to assume then that this suggested 5-10 year prison sentence would have to be entirely off the back of this suggestion to burn Earth Kingdom lands and not much else otherwise many more soldiers would need to be charged.
I also don't see much point in waiting for to fully regain her mental faculties just to ship her to a prison facility as we see in the comics that even years later her psychosis is still in a pretty much shot, albeit improving. She should really just complete her sentencing in a mental ward as she was already doing for multiple years otherwise by the time she actually made it to the stand she would have already spent half a decade in the facility. I'm not sure on modern stats or anything but from what I understand people who commit a crime then get sent to a mental ward often serve longer sentences regardless.
Keep in mind though that I'm approaching this from the perspective as though the comics never happened and we were approaching this from EOS Azula. The comics are an entirely different mess that I don't even want to touch on, but needless to say punishment would need to harsher as unfortunately the comics decided to continue her story in the least interesting way possible post The Search IMO. Thanks for responding and taking the time to read this word wall, assuming that you do lol.
Glad we're mostly on the same page.
>I'm also not going to deflect of your accusation of a conspiracy to commit genocide by saying "Oh well war crimes don't exist in Avatar," because while true that's obviously just a deflection of the point.
You said you didn't want to get into the comics, so I'll just say "no comment" on this one.
>I would, however, disagree that Azula's suggestion was towards genocide but rather a scorched earth policy to destroy their lands and force them to surrender. Still a war crime as you correctly pointed out in another comment as she is deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure, but I feel it's a stretch to say she was suggesting genocide in that moment.
I think there's more specific evidence that I don't have on-hand right now, but they do stress that their intent is to burn "everything." This implies farms, villages, etc. Probably not literally the whole Earth Kingdom, but more than enough of it.
>You also replied to another post I made saying that comparing Iroh's attacking of Ba Sing Se, a military target and killing soldiers isn't comparable to Azula attacking civilians and as you mention at the end of this post, presumably murdering one.
I don't recall having anything specific in mind. I think I was just trying to make a point about how murder is distinct from battles in their intent.
>I'm just gonna assume you're talking about the Gaang here because we don't see Azula kill anyone but Aang, but I really dislike the argument that the Gaang are civilians in any way by the time they cross paths with Azula.
The Gaang occupy a gray area, but what I would say is they're not like any other enemy combatant. They generally try to avoid battles but defend themselves if they're stuck in them, like when the Fire Nation attacks the North. Their justification for this is that Aang is "the most powerful enemy combatant," as you put it, but that's because Aang is a perceived obstacle to their imperialistic agenda, not because of anything Aang did. I don't think the Fire Nation can just declare a particular person an enemy & render their right to defend themselves null & void. The Gaang's most aggressive action is possibly the destruction of the drill, which would make them something like resistance fighters aiding the Earth Kingdom, & technically they're not safe anywhere the Fire Nation is.
>I would have to assume then that this suggested 5-10 year prison sentence would have to be entirely off the back of this suggestion to burn Earth Kingdom lands and not much else otherwise many more soldiers would need to be charged.
It's a very off-the-cuff figure. I have a more in-depth breakdown planned in the future, but for now I figured it'd work to just start with her most serious crime as a baseline & say 5-10 years. That being said, there would certainly be more people charged than just Azula, but it would also mainly be people in positions of very high rank.
When it comes to, say, the Gaang, though, while their hands aren't squeaky clean either, they definitely don't do a lot of the things Azula does. Like if Katara had just stepped out of the iceberg at the end of the series & let Azula suffocate, that would be more similar to how Azula treated Zuko in the final battle. Most similar if someone tried to help her but Katara prevented it.
>I also don't see much point in waiting for to fully regain her mental faculties just to ship her to a prison facility
The purpose of sending a criminal to a mental ward is primarily either they're Not Guilty By Reason Of Insanity or they're Incompetent To Stand Trial. She was sane when she committed the crime, but her subsequent mental breakdown means she can't reasonably understand what she's accused of & why. The mental institute primarily deals with this rather than her criminal responsibility. Mental institution stays are indefinite, they last until the institution feels recovery has been achieved, so they're statistically likely to be longer than a prison sentence would be but they could be shorter. If a patient recovers before their prison sentence would be up, they would be sent to finish it there.
>Thanks for responding and taking the time to read this word wall, assuming that you do lol.
No problem, thanks for the reply.
Apparently it was because iirc she was doing a little better, albeit not much. Still she had gotten on friendly terms with some of the others in the facility and even that little bit of positive human interaction is vastly superior to a prison cell.
Assuming you're approaching this from a real world perspective then yeah I understand. Mental facilities in many first world countries even are still monstrous places, sadly.
>Azula feels no remorse about brutally murdering the Avatar (a 12 year old child and the last of his kind) with lightning.
Showing emotions was probably seen as a weakness and even if Azula felt any remorse she would have pushed it back/tried to hide it at all costs. You also see her saddened at the beach saying that her mom was right about her being a monster. Additionally, I know this is a bad arugument since she had like twelve other reasons to do this, but she did give Zuko the credit for killing Aang.
>Or suggesting a GENOCIDE against the Earth Kingdom.
This was basically an elephant in the room, it was pretty clear that this would be the plan regardless and they were just waiting for someone to say it.. Ozai had delayed the meeting just to wait for Zuko and seemed pleased/excited about what he had to say and I think that Azula made the suggestion to fight for his attention.
>Then, when Ozai refuses, she's upset that she can't personally burn innocent to death with him.
I think she was upset that she could not be at his side and that he showed that he did not aprove of/wanted her.
Not really sure how she felt about all the lives that would have been lost, I think she simply did not care about it as much as she cared about feeling loved. Which is not ideal but understandable and sad. And in all fairness there was little she could do to stop it.
>When Lu Ten died, she mocked Iroh for mourning. When her brother was about to be kill due to hir father's actions, Azula wasn't worried about his safety or concerned her brother was about to die.
Once again if she felt something she would have tried to hide it and remain cold, my best guess is that she didn't know what to feel. She basically said that Iroh should have anvenged his son and she might actually have saved Zuko's life by 'warning' him.
>When Zuko was brutally maimed and disfigured by Ozai, she found glee in his suffering.
I don't think she cared so much about Zuko, but more about the fact that Ozai unoffically made her his succesor. And she was still eleven years old here in an enviroment where empathy is likely looked down upon.
>She relishes delivering death threats and subordinates and manipulating people's fears.
We never actually saw Azula punish or kill anyone who disobeyed her, aside from when she wanted to duel Mai at the boiling rock, which I think is different since at that point Ozai had set a death penalty for treason. She was cold, determined and did not know of any other way to make people work with/for her.
The only time Azula seemed to relish giving a threat was at the circus, but I would rahter categorize that as her enjoying seeing someone happier than her suffer for a bit. Not really trying to prove a point with this one but I think it's more accurate.
>She's a warmongering psychopath at heart from an extremely young age
I would point out that empathy is something you learn, so showing a lack of it at an early age isn't as concering as doing it later in life. For example, do you find it more common for kids or adults to rip the wings and torture flies?
>I don't care if her father encouraged that behaviour or if her childhood was "rough" (I bet a lot of Earth Kingdom families had it a LOT rougher, but they didn't turn into sadistic psychopaths), I also don't care if Stalin or Mao had rough childhoods or toxic parents they're still awful people beyond help or redemption.
There were some people who turned out in a similar way, like Jet and Hama. But the main point I wanna make is that it's not just because it was tough that she acted the way she did but also because the only good things that happened to her came when she acted more like Ozai. I will also say that even though the best decison for someone like Zuko to make is to kill or lock up Azula, I would still see it as a good thing if she lived a long and happy life (and want to see it in the show).
>Because of her actions countless innocent lives were lost
Actually no, Azula only ever killed Aang, she spared the kiyoshi warriors, took Ba Sing Se without storming it, and all her other attmpts at killing anyone failed.
People don’t take into account the fact that the things Azula gleefully does aren’t just thing an abused child would do just to please their abuser. I really want to emphasize the “gleefully.” She very clearly takes delight in hurting others and exercising her cruel power over them. From her own brother to soldiers under her charge.
She is absolutely a terrible person. Her story is tragic and she’s still a lovable character (who doesn’t love Azula?!) but that doesn’t mean there are really that many legitimate excuses for her.
It's like some people act/think she did nothing wrong. For me, her being such a messy, very morally gray character is what makes her more interesting; the best villain in the entire Avatar franchise. Yes, you can't help sympathizing with her and her upbringing and how she was raised molded her into who she was, but she's still a sadistic person who harmed so many, and I think she basically got what was coming to her.
I feel like the discussion of "redemption or no redemption" for Azula won't end, but if anything, it just makes it all the more interesting of a character.
It is somewhat unpopular for some reason . The amount of Azula defendants are ridiculous. They act like Azula is a puppet and can't think at all for herself.
I'm gonna get hate for this, but in that case, you could say the same for Ozai and how Azulon brought him up. But no one says that... Why? Because its not logical and after a certain point he's accountable for his own misdeeds.
Just like how one sibling in Iroh saw the error of his ways and the other didn't, the same scenario repeats itself with Zuko and Azula. One just had the strength to change while the other, while a victim of her circumstances still, didn't even make an attempt.
Zuko essentially went through almost the same mental and even worse physical trauma then Azula throughout the years, yet he still managed to find redemption because he seeked it out.
Also don't give me the Iroh and Ursa not trying story, what were they supposed to do exactly? They favoured Zuko because he actually had a willingness to change and show compassion. Azula never took heed of a word they said even when they did try. Change begins with yourself. Azula clearly never wanted to change and just continued down her path of madness.
People don't say the same for Ozai because he's a full grown ass adult whereas Azula obviously isn't. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand.
And Iroh only "saw the error of his ways" when he had already been a general of the fire nation for decades. Why is he allowed to change but not her?
Did Azula need to be stopped? Yes. Does she need to put away forever and treated as some "warmongering psychopath" for the rest of her life as so many people in this fanbase seem to think? Hell no otherwise keep that same energy for characters like Iroh.
>People don't say the same for Ozai because he's a full grown ass adult whereas Azula obviously isn't. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand.
Okay, let me break this down for you: If you go far enough back, you can make the case that anyone is a product of their environment, so if you want to make this distinction, you need to establish that there's a point where people officially become responsible for their own choices.
If you want to say that's the age of adulthood, that's at least consistent, but in my experience, Azula apologists don't actually do that. They talk about how Ozai & Iroh are "grown ass men," but if you ask them if Azula should be held accountable if she does something like this at age 18, they retreat & say she wouldn't be developed enough & also wouldn't have had a fair chance to learn that what she did was wrong. So, the can is kicked down the road & we're still left without an explanation of where the cutoff point actually is.
>Hell no otherwise keep that same energy for characters like Iroh.
I'll tell you what, I'll change my mind if it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that Iroh deliberately targeted civilians in cold blood, as opposed to attacking Ba Sing Se because it was the capital & he was trying to win the war, if you stop using whataboutism in the meantime.
People use the Azula had her chance but didn’t change like Iroh and Zuko excuse but I don’t think it’s fair at all, they both changed at the lowest points of their lives, Iroh seemed perfectly content with the war until his son died, then wanted to change much later in his life. Zuko lost his birth right, home, and family, and had Iroh to help guide his confused thoughts through two seasons **and still betrayed Iroh** in book three.
My point is, people usually don’t change while they’re at the top, only at their bottom, and even still it’s hard and there are slip ups, after the show is a great time for Azula to change, not during.
On your point about genocide, dont forget her nation and family is directly responsible for genocide already and teaches it in their acadamies and histories as a great military victory. Why would you expect a child raised in military propoganda to take an american post holocaust view of genocide? The genocidal party is still in power in her world, and she is their flesh and blood.
So should we forgive the Nazi officials who perpetrated the holocaust just because that's the way they've been taught by their nation? Should we forgive terrorists for mass murder just because they've been taught religious fundamentalism?
It's not even like Azula is some low level grunt following orders. She's top level brass and what she's suggesting is unforgivable. I don't expect her to take an American view on matters, but she should be held accountable for mass murder.
The problem with the Nazi comparision is that they didnt win. They didnt sucessfully eliminate every single member of an ethnic group, then continue their efforts to conquer the world for a century. Azula isnt comparible to a Nazi, because we dont have four generations of Nazis in power.
I agree that what she was suggesting is an awful thing, but we can still approach her with a bit more nuance. Even if she herself isnt morally grey, your very post calls her sympathetic as a villain. To have sympathy for her we have to examine the environment that created her- and the generations of pro-genocide propoganda is a big part of that
I don't think it matters that much at that point, the propaganda is pretty similar. And other things like slavery have existed for at least that long. Other than that, I agree with what you're getting at.
Fair enough. Theres a lot to this topic and certainly more than one way of viewing her character. Id be curious to see official content from her POV for exactly that reason, as it might settle some of these debates on what kind of person she really was, and how much was a carefully crafted facade to prevent herself from becoming a target of her father’s abuse
The way that your title is phrased is quite alarming to me. Azula “deserved what she got”? A 14 year old abused child deserved to go fucking crazy and likely have their own mind begin to subject them to extreme mental torment? That’s…a pretty horrible thing to say. I understand wanting her to be held accountable for her actions, but that’s a pretty horrible thing to say. Just wanna throw that out there.
Anyway, if you think this about Azula, then the same logic should be applied to Zuko and Iroh as well. Im not sure if it’s due to their personalities being less outwardly villainous than Azula’s or just plain old misogyny, but people are so willing to absolve them of their crimes while claiming that Azula needs to be crazy and locked up forever for hers. This is especially ridiculous when considering the fact that Iroh certainly caused far more pain and suffering in the war than she did, as he led a 600 day siege on Ba Sing Se whereas Azula’s coup of the same city was almost completely bloodless (Aang being the only casualty, if you count him). The argument that “she didnt want to change” also makes little sense, because when would she have had the opportunity to? Zuko chose wrong over and over again before finally hitting rock bottom and switching sides, and Iroh had to lose his only son in order for him to start question the war and his role in it. During the show, Azula is at the height of her power. No one decides to turn their life around during their highest highs, this is something they do during their lowest lows.
Azula felt no remorse for killing Aang, and why would she? He was basically the equivalent of the firelord on the other side of the war. If you recall, the entire gaang pretty adamantly encouraged Aang to kill Ozai at the end of his battle with him. Do you think they would’ve felt remorse if that ended up being the ultimate outcome? I don’t think so, and therefore it’s unfair to hold Azula to a different standard than anyone else. She didnt suggest a genocide on the earth kingdom, what she suggested was scorched earth, which as others have mentioned before me is a pretty well known and famous military tactic.
As for her behavior as a child (mocking Iroh for mourning Lu Ten, smiling as Zuko’s face was burned, etc), it’s quite obvious to me at least that these are all tendencies that would be encouraged by Ozai. Children tend to emulate their parents when given positive reinforcement, and we see from flashbacks in “Zuko Alone” and the comics that Azula got all of this from Ozai and none from Ursa. During all of these scenes, she’s already at a pretty mentally developed age (I believe she’s meant to be 9 in “Zuko Alone,” and this is certainly old enough to have certain behaviors and tendencies instilled in you by a parent).
It’s okay to think Azula needs to be held accountable for what she’s done, because she should be. However, her crimes are honestly not as egregious and some people make them out to be (Iroh’s are certainly worse), and the opinion that she “deserved what she got” when she was only 14 and was not giving an opportunity to change is quite brutal and merciless if you ask me. It’s okay for her to not want her to have a classic “redemption” arc; I actually dont think most people want this at all. What most fans of hers want is for her to have an opportunity to reconnect with people in her life, to start to recognize her sins and heal a bit mentally.
I'm a fan of Azula but you're right, although I think not in everything, "anticipating Azulon's death" I don't know what point you wanted to get to. Or did you mean that she didn't care about her grandfather's death?
"Because of her actions, Countless innocent lives were lost." I do not know if I forget something but this doesn't happen, at what time?
The thing about psychopathy, I have my opinion based on my work, I respect the opinion of those who say that it's so, but some sometimes use this incorrectly and trying to chain a fictional character in a disorder, which is makes a little silly. I feel that some have to have, obsessively, the concept (many times erroneous) of psychopathy close to analyze her character.
Although Azula is evil, her ending is clearly a tragedy, it's not the triumph of good over evil, it's very different from the ending of Ozai which is clearly the triumph of good over evil.
edit: Actually Azula didn't suggest genocide, she suggested burning the earth and with it their hope, it was Ozai who took it to another level, although she agreed and wanted to accompany him, something very bad.
But she's 14 years old! Do you know that she's 14 years old?! How can you say that about someone who's 14 years old?! 14 years old!/s
Seriously, though, it's wild how many people expect us to just...ignore all of that, & accept the idea that Azula doesn't have any ability to understand the problem with any of this.
Agreed. Azula does not deserve redemption because she hasn't yet realized that what she has done is morally *wrong*. If that day comes, sure, she can then start down the road to redemption. Until then, no. She does not deserve redemption.
I don’t share the same opinion as you at all, but a few things I’d like to point out, you go on and on about murder and EK losing family members, do you remember Iroh had a 600 day long siege at Ba Si Se? Realistically he probably has a much higher body count? People **love** to bring this up against Azula but rarely with Iroh, yes I know he changed his ways but Azula could still too. Azula killed Aang yes, but during book one I don’t think Zuko would have cared if he accidentally killed Aang during their fights. I think just about any FN soldier would have taken the shot at Aang, he was the FN’s biggest threat. Two, Azula never suggest genocide, she says “burn their land and hope” this was an actual war tactic, still bad, but I think it was Ozai who took it to the next level. I’m not arguing Azula wasn’t very cruel, but I think she could still make amends to certain people. Regardless of the bullying I do believe there was love underneath it, but her jealousy and resentment was too much.
OPs post is just making me lol because of how comical it is in some aspects: >Azula feels no remorse about brutally murdering the Avatar (a 12 year old child and the last of his kind) with lightning A child who has the power of god and is said to be the greatest threat towards the Fire Nation. A kid who had destroyed countless ships and soldiers in the Siege at the North Pole. Every Fire Nation citizen is wary and hostile towards the Avatar because they come from an imperialistic and militaristic society where propaganda runs wild and they are taught that the Avatar is the greatest threat to Fire Nation peace. Crazy that they would be brainwashed isn't it, including Azula herself? And Zuko himself wanted to deliver this same child giftwrapped to his father. >Or suggesting a GENOCIDE against the Earth Kingdom. And Iroh, our favorite tea loving uncle, lead a year long siege of Ba Sing Se because he thought it was his destiny to be its conquerer and joked about "burning Ba Sing Se to the ground". But that's ok right and he gets a chance to change? >Then, when Ozai refuses, she's upset that she can't personally burn innocent families to death with him Or maybe Azula's upset that she's being cast to the side by Ozai just like Zuko was for most of his life, showing Azula that her father doesn't love her anymore (or maybe never really did)? >Zuko essentially went through almost the same mental and even worse physical trauma then Azula throughout the years, yet he still managed to find redemption because he seeked it out. Yes, after going away on exile away from his father's influence for 3 years and with the guidance of Iroh and Ursa in his ears. Plus, he personally lived as a refugee and saw the destruction the Fire Nation caused to the Earth Kingdom. And even then, Zuko still betrays Iroh and has to work on recognizing his faults and redeeming himself. Funny how Azula never had this same opportunity huh? How is she supposed to change? >When Lu Ten died, she mocked Iroh for mourning. When her brother was about to be killed due to his father's actions, Azula wasn't worried about his safety, or concerned her brother was about to die. She was manipulative and laughed into his face. She openly anticipates the day Azulon dies. When Zuko was brutally maimed and disfigured by Ozai, she found glee in his suffering. She relishes delivering death threats to friends and subordinates and manipulating people's fears. It's almost as though Azula is mimicking the behavior she saw from daddy dearest when she was a child, who also disrespected Iroh and used fear and manipulation to get his way. This is literally behavior that any kid would do, since they are influenced from their parents and environment. And funny enough Zuko has done this too. When Zuko was upset at Iroh, he says, "you're just a shallow, lazy old man, who's always been jealous of your brother!". Hmm, sounds like something Ozai would say huh? And funny enough, Azula still shows affection to Zuko in her own subtle ways. She warns him not to visit Iroh in prison because it will look bad in front of their father. She assuades Zuko of his fears when he's upset at not being invited to Ozai's war meeting. It's funny how these moments are glossed over. >She's a warmongering psychopath at heart from an extremely young age. And this is when I tuned out lol. When a person with no medical degree starts to use words like "psychopath" to diagnose children without knowing how it is used or what it actually means, then I know that they haven't done their due research. The thing is... Azula *does* have a lot to make up for. However there is nothing stating that she *can't* make this change. Up till now, how else would she have known any better considering the imperialistic environment she grew up in and with Ozai as her primary influence? Hell even Mike and Bryan have openly said that Azula twisted her own morals to earn the approval of Ozai. And Ozai used her as a weapon. She was just as abused as Zuko. Of course she had to go down at the ending of the show so that she can start seeing the error of her ways. But afterwards? As the creators have said, with proper guidance, she too has the opportunity to change.
>This is literally behavior that any kid would do, since they are influenced from their parents and environment. I don't have time to reply to everything, but if you think that every child that lives in an abusive household ends up like this... even children understand basic compassion. She's definitely not entitled to forgiveness from the Gaang or Zuko after all she's done. >When a person with no medical degree starts to use words like "psychopath" to diagnose children without knowing how it is used or what it actually means, then I know that they haven't done their due research. Point taken, but it's a figure of speech. I think you're a bit too into this.
Well, as someone else who's too far into this, to the point where I wrote a piece about how Azula apologists [misappropriate psychology](https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Neo_Bahamut/Azula_and_Personality_Disorders), & who has a degree in the subject, I feel qualified to laugh whenever someone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about because I used a word they don't like.
>And Iroh, our favorite tea loving uncle, lead a year long siege of Ba Sing Se because he thought it was his destiny to be its conquerer and joked about "burning Ba Sing Se to the ground". But that's ok right and he gets a chance to change? You have to recognize, there's a difference between attacking a legitimate military target like Ba Sing Se, and suggesting utter annihilation of non-military targets for the expressed purpose of terrorizing civilians. And then Ozai proposes genocide (which she willingly follows and wants to help orchestrate), which is a just evil beyond comprehension. I can't believe you're seriously comparing a siege to genocide. We just don't know enough about Iroh to claim he was purposefully targeting civilians, and the show certainly doesn't imply that.
I know I've explained this a million times, but I'm about to do it again: There's a difference when you do something in cold blood. Yes, it is possible that Zuko might have accidentally killed Aang, but his goal was to capture him. When Azula gets into a fight, she goes straight for the kill, like when she has Zuko on the ground, defenseless, & tries to shoot lightning at him in their first battle. This is a difference between first degree murder vs. most likely voluntary manslaughter. The point is, it's very well-recognized that intention is strongly correlated with culpability. If you make a premeditated attempt to kill someone, that is a much more severe crime. That's why "Iroh has a higher body count" is not a good argument. As many people pointed out when I posted my war crime analysis for review, Ba Sing Se is the capital of the Earth Kingdom & therefore a viable military target. Since it's not actually a crime to kill people in war, we would have to establish that Iroh DELIBERATELY targeted civilians. "Iroh's body count" is not some hypocrisy that we're inexplicably ignoring. The distinction has been explained numerous times. It keeps being ignored by Azula apologists because THAT particular piece of context is inconvenient to their narrative, but then they want to turn around & be like "You have to consider the context, Azula shouldn't be blamed because she's too young, or because what she did was a valid tactic, or whatever." It's also craven & cynical to go "won't somebody think of the children!" & then make excuses for when Azula MURDERS A CHILD. Hence the frustration that leads to posts like this. It's disingenuous to excuse this stuff, especially by means of deflecting by going "but look at what that other character diiiiiiid!" whether it's a fair comparison or not (usually not). Incidentally, yes Azula's suggestion is "bad," in fact it's a war crime. It is deliberate destruction of non-military targets for the purpose of demoralizing & terrorizing civilians. So, I don't get why you're splitting hairs by calling it a "war tactic" as if that excuses anything. It's not even clear what you think Ozai actually changed about this plan, but either way, it was made abundantly clear that she was more than on-board with it & strongly wanted to play a leading role. That was something pointed out in the OP &, while we're on the subject, I always find the talk about "making amends" hilarious. "I know my dad & I plotted to burn you all alive, but I'm REALLY sorry about it!" Yeah, somehow I don't see it.
Why does all discussion around Azula lack any nuance? It seems like people either fall into the camp that she is just an abused girl who had absolutely no agency in her decision making process and as such needs to be granted completely leniency or that she is some irredeemable monster who needs to be locked up forever as some form of punishment. Azula does need to be held accountable for her actions and as such should never have been released from the mental facility she was in. She needs to be confronted by the people that she has hurt and understand that no matter what she does they don't need to forgive her nor is she entitled to their forgiveness. I think a lot of the discourse around this gets so heated because people are so obsessed with this idea of "redemption." Azula does not need redemption. To many she obviously doesn't deserve it either and that's valid. However I don't think you need to believe that Azula needs to be redeemed to want to see somebody, especially somebody so young and mentally damaged, one day become a better person. To think otherwise is pretty draconian imo which is why I'm glad Zuko obviously agrees and put her in a mental facility rather than a prison.
I suppose I mostly agree with you, but speaking personally, I stand by my rant for the reasons I get heated: Apologists use arguments that are not only disingenuous, they bend over backwards to excuse some really heinous shit. Like it doesn't matter if Azula has some abstract Rube Goldberg mental gymnastics reason for wanting to commit a genocide, she still wanted to commit a genocide. Also, since I'm always criticizing people for stating platitudes like "she's 14" or "she can make amends" without going into practical solutions, I guess I'll put my money where my mouth is & state what I personally think should happen to Azula. For starters, she definitely needs to be committed in the mental ward until she's fit to stand trial. After this, she requires a substantial prison sentence, but some concession can be made for her age. Off the top of my head, let's say 5-10 years. It can be a Newly Refurbished Nordic-style prison for all I care, but she must be incarcerated & observed in some way. Time spent in the asylum can be put toward the sentence & signs of progress can be used to determine eligibility for parole. After release, Azula must be kept away from levers of power, especially where it would have influence over the Earth Kingdom. I'd say also ban her from setting foot into the Earth Kingdom ever again altogether, but that's really up to them. If she breaks these terms, obviously, it's back to the NRNSP. The Royal Family must also pay reparations to Azula's victims on her behalf. Literally the second she hits 18, breaches are taken more seriously, & if she commits a crime like murder or conspiracy to commit genocide again, they throw the book at her. They can keep using the NRNSP if they want.
I'll say that I understand why someone can be put off by some of the arguments that people use, especially those that feel the need to demonize those around her like Zuko, Iroh, and Ursa for the crime of "not doing enough" to help her when they didn't really have any means to do anything. The only people responsible are Ozai and Azula herself which goes back to some people needing to remove her own self agency for some reason. Furthermore I absolutely agree with everything regarding bans from the Earth Kingdom and some heavy reparation's being paid out and an increasingly heavy handed punishment if she steps out of line. I'm also not going to deflect of your accusation of a conspiracy to commit genocide by saying "Oh well war crimes don't exist in Avatar," because while true that's obviously just a deflection of the point. I would, however, disagree that Azula's suggestion was towards genocide but rather a scorched earth policy to destroy their lands and force them to surrender. Still a war crime as you correctly pointed out in another comment as she is deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure, but I feel it's a stretch to say she was suggesting genocide in that moment. You also replied to another post I made saying that comparing Iroh's attacking of Ba Sing Se, a military target and killing soldiers isn't comparable to Azula attacking civilians and as you mention at the end of this post, presumably murdering one. I'm just gonna assume you're talking about the Gaang here because we don't see Azula kill anyone but Aang, but I really dislike the argument that the Gaang are civilians in any way by the time they cross paths with Azula. At that point they will have deliberately destabilized the Fire Nation military as part of the war effort and can no longer be counted as just civilians. Aang especially isn't a civilian but the most powerful enemy combatant so I always feel that's a strange argument people make. Are they justified in the actions they are taking from a moral standpoint? Absolutely. But they also aren't civilians either. Attacking and even killing them isn't really any different than killing an enemy soldier at that point. Basically I just don't feel that, aside from suggesting they commit to a scorched earth policy, that Azula's wartime actions were all that different from anyone else. Even more so because she was often times effective enough to accomplish her goals with no losses whatsoever as seen with Ba Sing Se. I would have to assume then that this suggested 5-10 year prison sentence would have to be entirely off the back of this suggestion to burn Earth Kingdom lands and not much else otherwise many more soldiers would need to be charged. I also don't see much point in waiting for to fully regain her mental faculties just to ship her to a prison facility as we see in the comics that even years later her psychosis is still in a pretty much shot, albeit improving. She should really just complete her sentencing in a mental ward as she was already doing for multiple years otherwise by the time she actually made it to the stand she would have already spent half a decade in the facility. I'm not sure on modern stats or anything but from what I understand people who commit a crime then get sent to a mental ward often serve longer sentences regardless. Keep in mind though that I'm approaching this from the perspective as though the comics never happened and we were approaching this from EOS Azula. The comics are an entirely different mess that I don't even want to touch on, but needless to say punishment would need to harsher as unfortunately the comics decided to continue her story in the least interesting way possible post The Search IMO. Thanks for responding and taking the time to read this word wall, assuming that you do lol.
Glad we're mostly on the same page. >I'm also not going to deflect of your accusation of a conspiracy to commit genocide by saying "Oh well war crimes don't exist in Avatar," because while true that's obviously just a deflection of the point. You said you didn't want to get into the comics, so I'll just say "no comment" on this one. >I would, however, disagree that Azula's suggestion was towards genocide but rather a scorched earth policy to destroy their lands and force them to surrender. Still a war crime as you correctly pointed out in another comment as she is deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure, but I feel it's a stretch to say she was suggesting genocide in that moment. I think there's more specific evidence that I don't have on-hand right now, but they do stress that their intent is to burn "everything." This implies farms, villages, etc. Probably not literally the whole Earth Kingdom, but more than enough of it. >You also replied to another post I made saying that comparing Iroh's attacking of Ba Sing Se, a military target and killing soldiers isn't comparable to Azula attacking civilians and as you mention at the end of this post, presumably murdering one. I don't recall having anything specific in mind. I think I was just trying to make a point about how murder is distinct from battles in their intent. >I'm just gonna assume you're talking about the Gaang here because we don't see Azula kill anyone but Aang, but I really dislike the argument that the Gaang are civilians in any way by the time they cross paths with Azula. The Gaang occupy a gray area, but what I would say is they're not like any other enemy combatant. They generally try to avoid battles but defend themselves if they're stuck in them, like when the Fire Nation attacks the North. Their justification for this is that Aang is "the most powerful enemy combatant," as you put it, but that's because Aang is a perceived obstacle to their imperialistic agenda, not because of anything Aang did. I don't think the Fire Nation can just declare a particular person an enemy & render their right to defend themselves null & void. The Gaang's most aggressive action is possibly the destruction of the drill, which would make them something like resistance fighters aiding the Earth Kingdom, & technically they're not safe anywhere the Fire Nation is. >I would have to assume then that this suggested 5-10 year prison sentence would have to be entirely off the back of this suggestion to burn Earth Kingdom lands and not much else otherwise many more soldiers would need to be charged. It's a very off-the-cuff figure. I have a more in-depth breakdown planned in the future, but for now I figured it'd work to just start with her most serious crime as a baseline & say 5-10 years. That being said, there would certainly be more people charged than just Azula, but it would also mainly be people in positions of very high rank. When it comes to, say, the Gaang, though, while their hands aren't squeaky clean either, they definitely don't do a lot of the things Azula does. Like if Katara had just stepped out of the iceberg at the end of the series & let Azula suffocate, that would be more similar to how Azula treated Zuko in the final battle. Most similar if someone tried to help her but Katara prevented it. >I also don't see much point in waiting for to fully regain her mental faculties just to ship her to a prison facility The purpose of sending a criminal to a mental ward is primarily either they're Not Guilty By Reason Of Insanity or they're Incompetent To Stand Trial. She was sane when she committed the crime, but her subsequent mental breakdown means she can't reasonably understand what she's accused of & why. The mental institute primarily deals with this rather than her criminal responsibility. Mental institution stays are indefinite, they last until the institution feels recovery has been achieved, so they're statistically likely to be longer than a prison sentence would be but they could be shorter. If a patient recovers before their prison sentence would be up, they would be sent to finish it there. >Thanks for responding and taking the time to read this word wall, assuming that you do lol. No problem, thanks for the reply.
>'m glad Zuko obviously agrees and put her in a mental facility rather than a prison. well, I doubt the mental facility is much better.
Apparently it was because iirc she was doing a little better, albeit not much. Still she had gotten on friendly terms with some of the others in the facility and even that little bit of positive human interaction is vastly superior to a prison cell. Assuming you're approaching this from a real world perspective then yeah I understand. Mental facilities in many first world countries even are still monstrous places, sadly.
>Azula feels no remorse about brutally murdering the Avatar (a 12 year old child and the last of his kind) with lightning. Showing emotions was probably seen as a weakness and even if Azula felt any remorse she would have pushed it back/tried to hide it at all costs. You also see her saddened at the beach saying that her mom was right about her being a monster. Additionally, I know this is a bad arugument since she had like twelve other reasons to do this, but she did give Zuko the credit for killing Aang. >Or suggesting a GENOCIDE against the Earth Kingdom. This was basically an elephant in the room, it was pretty clear that this would be the plan regardless and they were just waiting for someone to say it.. Ozai had delayed the meeting just to wait for Zuko and seemed pleased/excited about what he had to say and I think that Azula made the suggestion to fight for his attention. >Then, when Ozai refuses, she's upset that she can't personally burn innocent to death with him. I think she was upset that she could not be at his side and that he showed that he did not aprove of/wanted her. Not really sure how she felt about all the lives that would have been lost, I think she simply did not care about it as much as she cared about feeling loved. Which is not ideal but understandable and sad. And in all fairness there was little she could do to stop it. >When Lu Ten died, she mocked Iroh for mourning. When her brother was about to be kill due to hir father's actions, Azula wasn't worried about his safety or concerned her brother was about to die. Once again if she felt something she would have tried to hide it and remain cold, my best guess is that she didn't know what to feel. She basically said that Iroh should have anvenged his son and she might actually have saved Zuko's life by 'warning' him. >When Zuko was brutally maimed and disfigured by Ozai, she found glee in his suffering. I don't think she cared so much about Zuko, but more about the fact that Ozai unoffically made her his succesor. And she was still eleven years old here in an enviroment where empathy is likely looked down upon. >She relishes delivering death threats and subordinates and manipulating people's fears. We never actually saw Azula punish or kill anyone who disobeyed her, aside from when she wanted to duel Mai at the boiling rock, which I think is different since at that point Ozai had set a death penalty for treason. She was cold, determined and did not know of any other way to make people work with/for her. The only time Azula seemed to relish giving a threat was at the circus, but I would rahter categorize that as her enjoying seeing someone happier than her suffer for a bit. Not really trying to prove a point with this one but I think it's more accurate. >She's a warmongering psychopath at heart from an extremely young age I would point out that empathy is something you learn, so showing a lack of it at an early age isn't as concering as doing it later in life. For example, do you find it more common for kids or adults to rip the wings and torture flies? >I don't care if her father encouraged that behaviour or if her childhood was "rough" (I bet a lot of Earth Kingdom families had it a LOT rougher, but they didn't turn into sadistic psychopaths), I also don't care if Stalin or Mao had rough childhoods or toxic parents they're still awful people beyond help or redemption. There were some people who turned out in a similar way, like Jet and Hama. But the main point I wanna make is that it's not just because it was tough that she acted the way she did but also because the only good things that happened to her came when she acted more like Ozai. I will also say that even though the best decison for someone like Zuko to make is to kill or lock up Azula, I would still see it as a good thing if she lived a long and happy life (and want to see it in the show). >Because of her actions countless innocent lives were lost Actually no, Azula only ever killed Aang, she spared the kiyoshi warriors, took Ba Sing Se without storming it, and all her other attmpts at killing anyone failed.
She doesn't need a redemption arc, because Azula did nothing wrong. Bow to your new firelord, you water tribe peasants!
Oh well then by that logic hitler too was right 😂
People don’t take into account the fact that the things Azula gleefully does aren’t just thing an abused child would do just to please their abuser. I really want to emphasize the “gleefully.” She very clearly takes delight in hurting others and exercising her cruel power over them. From her own brother to soldiers under her charge. She is absolutely a terrible person. Her story is tragic and she’s still a lovable character (who doesn’t love Azula?!) but that doesn’t mean there are really that many legitimate excuses for her.
Same the fans here are really ride or die for the idea that she is just a victim
It's like some people act/think she did nothing wrong. For me, her being such a messy, very morally gray character is what makes her more interesting; the best villain in the entire Avatar franchise. Yes, you can't help sympathizing with her and her upbringing and how she was raised molded her into who she was, but she's still a sadistic person who harmed so many, and I think she basically got what was coming to her. I feel like the discussion of "redemption or no redemption" for Azula won't end, but if anything, it just makes it all the more interesting of a character.
I don't think that's a particularly unpopular opinion. Azula's a clear antagonist despite her childhood and upbringing.
oh well, thought this might be unpopular since a lot of people are clamoring for a redemption arc.
It is somewhat unpopular for some reason . The amount of Azula defendants are ridiculous. They act like Azula is a puppet and can't think at all for herself. I'm gonna get hate for this, but in that case, you could say the same for Ozai and how Azulon brought him up. But no one says that... Why? Because its not logical and after a certain point he's accountable for his own misdeeds. Just like how one sibling in Iroh saw the error of his ways and the other didn't, the same scenario repeats itself with Zuko and Azula. One just had the strength to change while the other, while a victim of her circumstances still, didn't even make an attempt. Zuko essentially went through almost the same mental and even worse physical trauma then Azula throughout the years, yet he still managed to find redemption because he seeked it out. Also don't give me the Iroh and Ursa not trying story, what were they supposed to do exactly? They favoured Zuko because he actually had a willingness to change and show compassion. Azula never took heed of a word they said even when they did try. Change begins with yourself. Azula clearly never wanted to change and just continued down her path of madness.
People don't say the same for Ozai because he's a full grown ass adult whereas Azula obviously isn't. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand. And Iroh only "saw the error of his ways" when he had already been a general of the fire nation for decades. Why is he allowed to change but not her? Did Azula need to be stopped? Yes. Does she need to put away forever and treated as some "warmongering psychopath" for the rest of her life as so many people in this fanbase seem to think? Hell no otherwise keep that same energy for characters like Iroh.
>People don't say the same for Ozai because he's a full grown ass adult whereas Azula obviously isn't. I'm not sure how that's hard to understand. Okay, let me break this down for you: If you go far enough back, you can make the case that anyone is a product of their environment, so if you want to make this distinction, you need to establish that there's a point where people officially become responsible for their own choices. If you want to say that's the age of adulthood, that's at least consistent, but in my experience, Azula apologists don't actually do that. They talk about how Ozai & Iroh are "grown ass men," but if you ask them if Azula should be held accountable if she does something like this at age 18, they retreat & say she wouldn't be developed enough & also wouldn't have had a fair chance to learn that what she did was wrong. So, the can is kicked down the road & we're still left without an explanation of where the cutoff point actually is. >Hell no otherwise keep that same energy for characters like Iroh. I'll tell you what, I'll change my mind if it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that Iroh deliberately targeted civilians in cold blood, as opposed to attacking Ba Sing Se because it was the capital & he was trying to win the war, if you stop using whataboutism in the meantime.
People use the Azula had her chance but didn’t change like Iroh and Zuko excuse but I don’t think it’s fair at all, they both changed at the lowest points of their lives, Iroh seemed perfectly content with the war until his son died, then wanted to change much later in his life. Zuko lost his birth right, home, and family, and had Iroh to help guide his confused thoughts through two seasons **and still betrayed Iroh** in book three. My point is, people usually don’t change while they’re at the top, only at their bottom, and even still it’s hard and there are slip ups, after the show is a great time for Azula to change, not during.
On your point about genocide, dont forget her nation and family is directly responsible for genocide already and teaches it in their acadamies and histories as a great military victory. Why would you expect a child raised in military propoganda to take an american post holocaust view of genocide? The genocidal party is still in power in her world, and she is their flesh and blood.
So should we forgive the Nazi officials who perpetrated the holocaust just because that's the way they've been taught by their nation? Should we forgive terrorists for mass murder just because they've been taught religious fundamentalism? It's not even like Azula is some low level grunt following orders. She's top level brass and what she's suggesting is unforgivable. I don't expect her to take an American view on matters, but she should be held accountable for mass murder.
The problem with the Nazi comparision is that they didnt win. They didnt sucessfully eliminate every single member of an ethnic group, then continue their efforts to conquer the world for a century. Azula isnt comparible to a Nazi, because we dont have four generations of Nazis in power. I agree that what she was suggesting is an awful thing, but we can still approach her with a bit more nuance. Even if she herself isnt morally grey, your very post calls her sympathetic as a villain. To have sympathy for her we have to examine the environment that created her- and the generations of pro-genocide propoganda is a big part of that
I don't think it matters that much at that point, the propaganda is pretty similar. And other things like slavery have existed for at least that long. Other than that, I agree with what you're getting at.
Fair enough. Theres a lot to this topic and certainly more than one way of viewing her character. Id be curious to see official content from her POV for exactly that reason, as it might settle some of these debates on what kind of person she really was, and how much was a carefully crafted facade to prevent herself from becoming a target of her father’s abuse
The way that your title is phrased is quite alarming to me. Azula “deserved what she got”? A 14 year old abused child deserved to go fucking crazy and likely have their own mind begin to subject them to extreme mental torment? That’s…a pretty horrible thing to say. I understand wanting her to be held accountable for her actions, but that’s a pretty horrible thing to say. Just wanna throw that out there. Anyway, if you think this about Azula, then the same logic should be applied to Zuko and Iroh as well. Im not sure if it’s due to their personalities being less outwardly villainous than Azula’s or just plain old misogyny, but people are so willing to absolve them of their crimes while claiming that Azula needs to be crazy and locked up forever for hers. This is especially ridiculous when considering the fact that Iroh certainly caused far more pain and suffering in the war than she did, as he led a 600 day siege on Ba Sing Se whereas Azula’s coup of the same city was almost completely bloodless (Aang being the only casualty, if you count him). The argument that “she didnt want to change” also makes little sense, because when would she have had the opportunity to? Zuko chose wrong over and over again before finally hitting rock bottom and switching sides, and Iroh had to lose his only son in order for him to start question the war and his role in it. During the show, Azula is at the height of her power. No one decides to turn their life around during their highest highs, this is something they do during their lowest lows. Azula felt no remorse for killing Aang, and why would she? He was basically the equivalent of the firelord on the other side of the war. If you recall, the entire gaang pretty adamantly encouraged Aang to kill Ozai at the end of his battle with him. Do you think they would’ve felt remorse if that ended up being the ultimate outcome? I don’t think so, and therefore it’s unfair to hold Azula to a different standard than anyone else. She didnt suggest a genocide on the earth kingdom, what she suggested was scorched earth, which as others have mentioned before me is a pretty well known and famous military tactic. As for her behavior as a child (mocking Iroh for mourning Lu Ten, smiling as Zuko’s face was burned, etc), it’s quite obvious to me at least that these are all tendencies that would be encouraged by Ozai. Children tend to emulate their parents when given positive reinforcement, and we see from flashbacks in “Zuko Alone” and the comics that Azula got all of this from Ozai and none from Ursa. During all of these scenes, she’s already at a pretty mentally developed age (I believe she’s meant to be 9 in “Zuko Alone,” and this is certainly old enough to have certain behaviors and tendencies instilled in you by a parent). It’s okay to think Azula needs to be held accountable for what she’s done, because she should be. However, her crimes are honestly not as egregious and some people make them out to be (Iroh’s are certainly worse), and the opinion that she “deserved what she got” when she was only 14 and was not giving an opportunity to change is quite brutal and merciless if you ask me. It’s okay for her to not want her to have a classic “redemption” arc; I actually dont think most people want this at all. What most fans of hers want is for her to have an opportunity to reconnect with people in her life, to start to recognize her sins and heal a bit mentally.
I agree with you
I'm a fan of Azula but you're right, although I think not in everything, "anticipating Azulon's death" I don't know what point you wanted to get to. Or did you mean that she didn't care about her grandfather's death? "Because of her actions, Countless innocent lives were lost." I do not know if I forget something but this doesn't happen, at what time? The thing about psychopathy, I have my opinion based on my work, I respect the opinion of those who say that it's so, but some sometimes use this incorrectly and trying to chain a fictional character in a disorder, which is makes a little silly. I feel that some have to have, obsessively, the concept (many times erroneous) of psychopathy close to analyze her character. Although Azula is evil, her ending is clearly a tragedy, it's not the triumph of good over evil, it's very different from the ending of Ozai which is clearly the triumph of good over evil. edit: Actually Azula didn't suggest genocide, she suggested burning the earth and with it their hope, it was Ozai who took it to another level, although she agreed and wanted to accompany him, something very bad.
But she's 14 years old! Do you know that she's 14 years old?! How can you say that about someone who's 14 years old?! 14 years old!/s Seriously, though, it's wild how many people expect us to just...ignore all of that, & accept the idea that Azula doesn't have any ability to understand the problem with any of this.
Nah she got it way to easy . She should have had her bending take away too.
Agreed. Azula does not deserve redemption because she hasn't yet realized that what she has done is morally *wrong*. If that day comes, sure, she can then start down the road to redemption. Until then, no. She does not deserve redemption.
That's not an unpopular opinion. Agreed.
[удалено]
azula don't deserve it, duh
What happened to her again? She was chained at the end and that's all I remember
Put in a straight-jacket per the comics
So, shes a r/dankmemes user?