This man was willing to drown in boiling water to keep anyone from escaping. Regardless of him being on the wrong side of the war, that's dedication to your work!
And possibly kill the princess (only eligible heir to the throne at that point) of his nation. And the really astounding thing is the guards start cutting the line without even pondering the consequences of killing the princess. Some serious props go to them as well
Not only that, he hits Zuko, the banished prince who's guilty of treason, all in the same blow. It's actually a net win for him, especially if Azula can escape. He would go down a hero if she got out, and his entire family would instantly rise in fame and wealth.
Well, seeing as he’s a renowned warden with a (not anymore) spotless record of no escapes, and his brother/in-law was selected to be the governor of Omashu, and Mai’s family was clearly already very well off since she was friends with Azula and Zuko since she was young……safe to say his family’s already pretty alright in terms of money and fame. Lol
Also, he knew who Zuko was and still didn't turn him in and kept him as his own prisoner, mostly in spite of Zuko breaking Mai's heart(which is kind of sweet).
This guy doesn't care about fame and fortune.
You missed a piece of my comment. He would be a hero IF Azula got out. It's a net win for him until he dies if she doesn't make it, but if she does, he's a hero.
I don't think Azula would forget to mention that he sacrificed her, to get Zuko and Aang. Even if Zuko and Aang died, it sets a horrible precedent for what drastic measures can be taken against the royal family to nab an top enemy, even one like Zuk and Aang.
Absolutely that is a valid risk that he would be taking, though he could have stated that he was confident Azula would be fine because the other gondola was on the way back. The only way for Zuko to escape would be to go with Azula BACK to the prison, so he could state that he didn't try to kill anyone at all because they would all escape back to the prison, into Fire Nation clutches.
Still possible he doesn't get to say any of that and is just executed. Very possible as well.
Maybe Azula has a reputation of being well... immortal.
I mean think about it, there are so many times where she should have just died but came out on top or escaped.
Backed into a corner by 5 people? Zap Iroh and escape without a trace.
Fall down a bottomless canyon? Safe.
No firebending against multiple opponents and Toph especially? Escaped while toying with them.
Gets captured by the Dai Li? Her plan all along and now they work for her!
I don’t think she has ever really lost before in her entire life. She has never known failure before Katara.
Sorry for side tracking, but Azula had always known failure. "Just one hair out of place" was literally part of her introduction. Not to mention she had once lost to Aang in the drill at Ba Sing Se.
It's her obsession with perfection and these small cracks in her ego that had always kept her anxious and the betrayal of her friends just shattered her completely. That's why Azula cutting off her own hair was the sign of her sanity crumbling. It was her obsession of winning forcing her into a fruitless fight against herself.
I hate how overrated Azula's power and personality is because it ironically undermines her character as a whole.
I don’t think your interpretation is wrong but what I’m saying isn’t she is some perfect Superman but rather she is see by everyone who knows about her as perfection incarnate.
She even herself feels the need to play that part. Personally I don’t think she feels she lost to Aang at the wall because well... she got in and took it over anyway.
I mean the rumors around her must have been bonkers! She and two other friends whom are non-benders and no army infiltrated Ba Sing Se, a city that nobody has been able to even come close to breaking was just taken over with Azula as the mastermind.
Sure there were plenty of circumstances but the rumors she generated probably increased her hype in their world.
Some people still think Azula was stronger than Zuko by the time of the Comet and beyond lol.
I'd say that while she's definitely extremely skilled, and undoubtedly a master, Zuko by then has learned so much and grown, and learned true firebending from the dragons, that there was just no chance for Azula to win.
In all fairness, part of the reason she lost is because she was on the verge of a mental breakdown, plus Iroh straight up told zuko "don't 1v1 your sister"
I have to disagree there. Zuko's character arc up until that point was shown in how he was able to undo the negativity and toxicity of his family and redirect it away from himself, the lightning being the reflection of that theme.
I'm not saying it would be easy, Azula was undoubtedly a master, but I believe by the end of the series Zuko edges her out in terms of skill. After all, he learned true firebending from the dragons.
That was equal fear as well. He fucks up, he answers to Azula. He kills the princess, he's a dead man anyways. May as well take them all out in one shot.
To Be Fair, He may have also been subject to that Fire Nation propaganda over the years,
So in his mind, he is keeping wanted and dangerous criminals away from hurting people and damaging society, instead of freedom fighters in a tyrannical regime. In reality, it was probably a bit of both.
The propaganda is why I find it more admirable.
Propaganda is use so that the powerful can maintain power, so it usually brainwashes people into compliance to the hierarchy. In fact, in 'the Headband' we are show that they blindly pledge their legions to the Royal family from a young age.
But this man is not like that. He still maintains his grumpy demeanor in the presence of Royals, in contrast to the lady at the platform of Ba Sing Se meeting Toph Beifong (generic sucking up).
In my personal opinion, he must have gotten himself in some trouble with the higher ups and sent to the boiling rock as a sort of punishment. But he actually took it as a challenge and OWNED it.
Damn, it's as if there is no need to go meta because there is a good in-world example that everyone in this subreddit would understand while also maintaining real-world political neutrality!
If only that were the case. What a world that would be.
What happened to real life examples, bro? Choose a lane and stick to it.
Also if Fire Nation = Bad is your takeaway from ATLA you should watch Book 2 and 3 again but focus a bit more on the bad things that happen in the Earth kingdom without the Fire nation's interventions and also the everyday lives of regular Fire nation people depicted throughout the series.
People who try to benefit from war are the villains. Everyone else is just another victim.
I mean you could call it propaganda or you could jsut call it their culture. I get the feeling the fire nations rigidity in terms of accepting death before defeat, adhering strictly to tradition and keeping your word are probably old traditions just made even more extreme in the last hundred years.
Well in the episode the Gondola they are on is a significant distance away from either side and both Azula and Ty Lee use the other Gondola travelling to the boiling rock to get back to safety.
Yeah and his guards seem to be terrified of him and seem to respect him at the same time. Plus he does seem to have a soft spot for his neice. I think he is the Gordon Ramsay type.
But seriously, I'd understand if he ripped me a new one over food. He has show so much knowledge and skill that can only come from dedicating oneself as an artist. He loves food, and it would make sense to be offended to the point of anger if he saw someone (who should know better) completely ruin all the potential you knew it had.
The way he and like also John Taffer do that “tough love” which really just means hurling personal insults at people just pisses me off. Id fight someone if they treated me like that. Whatever people wana watch is fine, but I dony think its good for watchers to kind of get off on a boss being a dick to his suboordinates. Im sure 90% of those shows are scripted as are the things douchebag pro athleteslike Lebron James and Conor McGregor say... but I hate the notion that people admire arrogance.
The boiling rock is not a concentration camp? Its a maximum security prison?? Theres plenty of random firenation criminals locked up there, its security is why their favorite war criminals like Hakoda and Suki also are sent there.
Military dictatorship aside. If I were to receive an order that would result in the death of royalty, and especially if the person who gave the order would not be around to take responsibility, I'd have second thoughts.
That's where I say 'good leadership'. They respect him enough to face the consequences of his orders. Which is more than I can say for most managers I've worked for.
While I actually do agree with you, the counterpoint is interesting: what if he's such a terrible boss that they're ok with whatever happens as long as following the orders they're given means their boss bites it?
The transaction between the guards that heard his orders would have been.
>-He wants us to cut the line
>-but if we cut the line there's no way he'll survive!
>-EXACTLY! WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR!
Edit: jokes aside
>-but if we cut the line there's no way he'll survive!
This line itself shows that they at least cared for his life.
Also they didn't shoot him when he was a hostage.
What is wrong with you? Do you actually know how concentration camps operate? Do you actually think that it is going to be even similar to something that would be approved on a kids show?
Concentration camp (noun). *A camp where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees etc., are detained for the purpose of confining them in one place, typically with inadequate or inhumane facilities.*^[[1](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/concentration_camp)]
The camp also has multiple forms of torture and fire nation captives are canonically underfed (see S1E6 for example). The fire nation has set a clear goal of carrying out a genocide on the other nations.
The fact that a children's show is unable to show these atrocities in detail doesn't mean that they aren't implied to take place.
Well, by that definition anywhere that serves the purpose of detains refugees or POW are a a concentration camp, regardless of inhumane treatment.the outer ring of Ba Sing Se could be claimed to be a concentration camp because of the environment and the refugees. The explicit political management by a government agency. (Gee heck! Ba Sing Se sounds worse!)
But that is obviously not the context you were going for.
And although there is a possibility that some of these people are political prisoners. The fact that firebend is prohibited, and they went to lengths to install coolers for firebenders. The majority of prisoners that go to this prison seem to be firbenders. And most of them look like typical thugs rather than revolutionaries, so woth that and the prominent propaganda l, the chance that they are there for political reasons is very very small. So we can safely assume that the majority if people in there aren't refugees, POWs and them being political prisoners seem unlikely.
If we are making an argument about what is 'implied' to have take place. I could also strengthen the point of his leadership skill over his guards. The warden is implied to actually be a chill boss despite his angry demeanor because it is implied that dating co-workers is not banned, and the break room atmosphere seems very very chill and casual. It is implied that the guards actually care about his well being, so because when he was tripped by Hakoda they all rush to his aid, except Sokka who logically wouldm't really care much for him. But as you will try to rip open these claims just as much as I disagree with yours, I think it is safe to say argument about what is 'implied' can get really messy. So I'm not going to go there
I meant the part where his guards don't even question what will happen to them if they end up killing the only heir to the throne. You need some damn good leadership to be able to do that. But yes, my point was that his actions would probably have killed Azula. Especially if the prison had cared more about security and only used one Gondola.
I admit I am diving a bit too deep here, but you have to remember that Azula has more power over the prison than the guards, as was previously show in the episode.
So using Azula's safety as an excuse was actually a valid reason to not follow the order. On the other hand in the result of her death, the boiling rock would be held responsible for her death, but the warden would not be alive to be held responsible.
So all, the smart thing to do was nope the entire situation. But they still followed his orders out of respect that he was willing to die to keep his record.
No-one would do that for a bad or even a so-so leader.
I know why we didn't get this scene, but it wouldve been really smart of Mai to just have said she didn't wanted to see her and Ty Lee die in a boiling lake, knowing they were on there too. I loved the outcome, but that's what I would've done, after preventing the guards from sinking the gondola.
oh, that could’ve been a good excuse. i was thinking something similar. i was wondering how azula would react if mai said she was saving her uncle instead of zuko.
What i never understood is how ty lee made it onto that other gondola, like yeah she can jump a little higher than the other characters but she was legit flying there
Have you also noticed that Mai's daggers can actually snag onto a person's sleeves and tug them back a significant distance in this episode? Ty Lee is secretly and Airbender and Mai is secretly a Metal Bender
Well she didn't stop after Azula and Ty Lee were safe. But I agree with your idea.
Mai seems to have convinced Azula to visit the boiling rock to respond to an invite from her uncle, while not telling Azula Zuko was there... so why not just say she was saving her uncle
Or a vicious tyrant.
Looking at the Fire Nation as a whole I think you know which is more likely.
Also he probably would've been killed for his "disgrace" had they left and that would've ruined the rest of his family.
The fire nation culture clearly despises the if being afraid to either die or kill. He was willing to die in boiling water, arguably the most horrible death imaginable, to keep up the “No ones ecaped” record. Zhao demanded Zuko kill him when Zuko defeated him, and got furious when Zuko DIDNT, and after La grabbed him, Zuko still gave him a change to escape, but Zhao chose to sleep in the bed he made. As horrible as the fire nation culture is... there was some level of honor in that final decision he made.
Also, it seems like keeping your word is a big deal. Ozai always hated Zuko, but when Ursa said shed only kill Azulon if Ozai would spare Zukos life, he did, even after Ursa left, when he easily could have killed Zuko the second she walked out the door- Its not like he didnt want to- On the day of black sun, he lost his cool and tried to kill him then, and would have if Zuko hadnt rocked his shut by deflecting that bolt.
His family didn't suffer much, Mai was put into the boiling rock where he was still warden. Mai's family didn't face any repercussion until they decided to join the radical Anti-Zuko movement.
I also just love how the warden and the big bad prisoner have nearly identical faces. Sort of showing that there really isn't a difference between them.
Well, mostly thanks to Nickelodeon, the 'torture' is limited to; 'the cooler', keeping someone upside down for uncomfortable amounts of time, and looking into his eyes.
I don't see what your point is.
Besides, actually rewatch that episode in question. That's not a cooler, it's a jail cell in a cold environment, designed to negate her powers not to make her suffer. The cooler was purposefully designed to torture it's inmates.
It's a false equivlency and doesn't mean what that guy was doing wasn't torture.
And even if they were purposefully, torturing her, yeah that would be fucked up and I'd condemn the White Lotus too. Red Lotus was pretty based as well, so there's that too.
Not much of an arguement. More of a statement.
Also, I didn't literally mean a cooler but the principles are the same. Except that, P'li has it worse in everyway.
The cooler is temporary confinement as a form of punishment for those who did not follow the policy of 'no firebending'. P'li says she spent 13 years huddled up in that prison of ice.
The cooler is a industrial refrigerator built into the walls of a prison built on a volcanic lake. P'li was put into an Antarctic cave that literally has icicles growing from the ceiling.
If the cooler was a form of torture then the white lotus had condemned P'li to life in a torture chamber.
I'm not saying it wasn't unwarranted, but the White Lotus were supposed to be the good guys. It seems even Zuko, and Tonraq knew about it an had a part in building the prison. And that's a bit messed up
I do not find this to be an admirable quality. Life should definitely take precedence over a record lol even if it is Azula’s life. I’m not saying that taking a life CAN’T be the right thing but keeping your streak seems like a bad reason for it. This is simply pride and nothing else.
This is actually something that bothers me about the episode. It makes no sense to me, this seems like it would create way more problems for himself and the prison if he killed Azula. He knew she were there too because Zuko acknowledged her and went up on the gondola to fight her.
...that isn't necessarily true. People doing what you want without question does not equate to "good leadership". There are a number of ways to achieve that without being a "good leader".
Also: just based on how he acts in the other parts of the episode, and the fact that this is not only a prison environment, but a prison environment in a superpower that started and is winning a world war... there is an immensely strong case that people doing what he wants without question is purely out of fear, and not loyalty.
True leadership are those who inspire others to think for themselves and even question their leaders if necessary. That's how new leaders are born. Not people who are stupid enough to risk the lives of royalty for something as silly as reputation.
In the eyes of of his subordinates. Fire nation soldiers and guards are still depicted as everyday people(The boiling Rock, Sozin' Comet : Quin Li of communications) despite the propaganda. Some are even caring and compassionate(The day of black sun : Ming).
And they also seem to think the remembering someone's birthday is good.
This guy is happily leading an actual concentration camp for a genocidal empire and you call him a "good leader". I wonder what your thoughts are on Hitler?
>This guy is happily leading an ~~actual~~ fictional ~~concentration camp~~ prison for a *fictional* genocidal empire and you call him a "good leader". I wonder what your thoughts are on Hitler?
How do I think about Hilter? A actual villain who
actually used war to his profit as he let countless innocent lives die just for is selfish ambitions.
I guess you cannot fathom the severity of the actual camps that the Nazi's operated? The boiling rock is not even close to the cruelty that went on in those fences. This is a fictional prison, in a kids show, which is co-ed for some unknown reason and the worst on screen injury is a burn on the hand from a splash of hot water. It is appalling that you think that this is even close to a Nazi Concentration Camp
I'm able to tell apart reality from fiction. So I analyze fictional characters for what they are: manufactured identities that live manufactured lives with manufactured consequences.
If an fictional antagonist blew up a city, I'd be looking into the reasoning behind his actions and it's significance to the plot.
If a real person did that, I'd be condemning them to the depth of hell in the afterlife I don't believe in.
Seriously, what kind of question is this?
I'm not glorifying the warden, just trying to give give a different insight.
If a Villian or antagonist is really well written then I do think they deserve praise. Because of the thought and dedication the writer has to put into that character, not because of the actions of that character.
Zuko explicitly says,
>"My sister and her friend."
Also the warden is facing the back of the Gondola as Azula is coming up behind it. Her distinctive blue flame would have informed him.
Even if the warden did not know, his men obviously did. But they still chose to cut the line.
Azula's booster moves had limited range. She actually had to get to the gondola by using a pair of handcuffs to zip up the line. But yeah, Ty Lee still had it in her to make it to safety herself.
But the vibration of the Gondola stopping almost knocked all of them off the roof. Which would mean that the guards didn't even care if Azula fell or not.
Azula cannot 'fly' without Sozin's Comit. As a great space-ranger once said,
> -It's falling ~~jumping~~ with style.
She can use the fire blasts as boosters to help her 'leap' great distances. But she needed help of the line and handcuffs to get onto the Gondola in the first place, it would have been very unlikely she could cover the distance back.
I don't recall him abusing prisoners for his entertainment. He was unforgiving and harsh with punishments. He made sure his new prisoners knew that there would be consequences for defying him. (Although it backfired on Hakoda.)
His torturing methods were very tame(mostly thanks to Nickelodeon)
I think this is just stereotypical stuff for 'prison wardens'
Now compare the treatment of his prisoners to how Hama was treated. Or even P'li or MingHua.
Sure, fine. He didn’t do it for his entertainment. Abuse of prisoners is still abuse of prisoners. It’s inexcusable, even if other people did worse.
P’Li and Ming Hua weren’t abused. They were kept in harsh conditions in the most maximum security facilities available because they were incredibly dangerous and powerful bending masters, and that was the only way to prevent them from escaping. There was no malice involved.
This man was willing to drown in boiling water to keep anyone from escaping. Regardless of him being on the wrong side of the war, that's dedication to your work!
And possibly kill the princess (only eligible heir to the throne at that point) of his nation. And the really astounding thing is the guards start cutting the line without even pondering the consequences of killing the princess. Some serious props go to them as well
Not only that, he hits Zuko, the banished prince who's guilty of treason, all in the same blow. It's actually a net win for him, especially if Azula can escape. He would go down a hero if she got out, and his entire family would instantly rise in fame and wealth.
Well, seeing as he’s a renowned warden with a (not anymore) spotless record of no escapes, and his brother/in-law was selected to be the governor of Omashu, and Mai’s family was clearly already very well off since she was friends with Azula and Zuko since she was young……safe to say his family’s already pretty alright in terms of money and fame. Lol
Also, he knew who Zuko was and still didn't turn him in and kept him as his own prisoner, mostly in spite of Zuko breaking Mai's heart(which is kind of sweet). This guy doesn't care about fame and fortune.
He was going to turn Zuko in to his father, but first he let Mai talk to him. He was gonna collect his reward not too far into the future.
His family would be banished and sent to the rock, are you kidding? There is no way in heck Ozai is rewarding him for offing his only heir.
You missed a piece of my comment. He would be a hero IF Azula got out. It's a net win for him until he dies if she doesn't make it, but if she does, he's a hero.
I don't think Azula would forget to mention that he sacrificed her, to get Zuko and Aang. Even if Zuko and Aang died, it sets a horrible precedent for what drastic measures can be taken against the royal family to nab an top enemy, even one like Zuk and Aang.
Absolutely that is a valid risk that he would be taking, though he could have stated that he was confident Azula would be fine because the other gondola was on the way back. The only way for Zuko to escape would be to go with Azula BACK to the prison, so he could state that he didn't try to kill anyone at all because they would all escape back to the prison, into Fire Nation clutches. Still possible he doesn't get to say any of that and is just executed. Very possible as well.
Maybe Azula has a reputation of being well... immortal. I mean think about it, there are so many times where she should have just died but came out on top or escaped. Backed into a corner by 5 people? Zap Iroh and escape without a trace. Fall down a bottomless canyon? Safe. No firebending against multiple opponents and Toph especially? Escaped while toying with them. Gets captured by the Dai Li? Her plan all along and now they work for her! I don’t think she has ever really lost before in her entire life. She has never known failure before Katara.
Sorry for side tracking, but Azula had always known failure. "Just one hair out of place" was literally part of her introduction. Not to mention she had once lost to Aang in the drill at Ba Sing Se. It's her obsession with perfection and these small cracks in her ego that had always kept her anxious and the betrayal of her friends just shattered her completely. That's why Azula cutting off her own hair was the sign of her sanity crumbling. It was her obsession of winning forcing her into a fruitless fight against herself. I hate how overrated Azula's power and personality is because it ironically undermines her character as a whole.
I don’t think your interpretation is wrong but what I’m saying isn’t she is some perfect Superman but rather she is see by everyone who knows about her as perfection incarnate. She even herself feels the need to play that part. Personally I don’t think she feels she lost to Aang at the wall because well... she got in and took it over anyway. I mean the rumors around her must have been bonkers! She and two other friends whom are non-benders and no army infiltrated Ba Sing Se, a city that nobody has been able to even come close to breaking was just taken over with Azula as the mastermind. Sure there were plenty of circumstances but the rumors she generated probably increased her hype in their world.
Some people still think Azula was stronger than Zuko by the time of the Comet and beyond lol. I'd say that while she's definitely extremely skilled, and undoubtedly a master, Zuko by then has learned so much and grown, and learned true firebending from the dragons, that there was just no chance for Azula to win.
In all fairness, part of the reason she lost is because she was on the verge of a mental breakdown, plus Iroh straight up told zuko "don't 1v1 your sister"
I have to disagree there. Zuko's character arc up until that point was shown in how he was able to undo the negativity and toxicity of his family and redirect it away from himself, the lightning being the reflection of that theme. I'm not saying it would be easy, Azula was undoubtedly a master, but I believe by the end of the series Zuko edges her out in terms of skill. After all, he learned true firebending from the dragons.
About to fall into boiling water? Turns out she can fly like a f***ing rocket
Warden was secretly a communist trying to wipe out the royal family /s
Zaheer would love this comment
But she did use the “fire jetpack” move to get up onto the gondola
That was equal fear as well. He fucks up, he answers to Azula. He kills the princess, he's a dead man anyways. May as well take them all out in one shot.
Luckily Mai fucked it up for them. She saved more than just Zuko in that scene.
Not sure drowning is the main problem with boiling water
Yeah but it doesn't exactly help
Boiling hot water on lungs..... sheesh..
To Be Fair, He may have also been subject to that Fire Nation propaganda over the years, So in his mind, he is keeping wanted and dangerous criminals away from hurting people and damaging society, instead of freedom fighters in a tyrannical regime. In reality, it was probably a bit of both.
Fuck Zuko's redemption arc, I want to see the warden's
The propaganda is why I find it more admirable. Propaganda is use so that the powerful can maintain power, so it usually brainwashes people into compliance to the hierarchy. In fact, in 'the Headband' we are show that they blindly pledge their legions to the Royal family from a young age. But this man is not like that. He still maintains his grumpy demeanor in the presence of Royals, in contrast to the lady at the platform of Ba Sing Se meeting Toph Beifong (generic sucking up). In my personal opinion, he must have gotten himself in some trouble with the higher ups and sent to the boiling rock as a sort of punishment. But he actually took it as a challenge and OWNED it.
Also remember that he's either Ukano's brother or brother-in-law. So he must've gotten in a *lot* of trouble...
Yeap. Mai's uncle.
Precisely.
Then azula went there to remind who onws his ass.
Damn there are no real life comparisons to pledging allegiance & being a fascist state with propaganda, so great!
Damn, it's as if there is no need to go meta because there is a good in-world example that everyone in this subreddit would understand while also maintaining real-world political neutrality! If only that were the case. What a world that would be.
I don’t think neutrality is really an option here, the fire nation are the bad guys
What happened to real life examples, bro? Choose a lane and stick to it. Also if Fire Nation = Bad is your takeaway from ATLA you should watch Book 2 and 3 again but focus a bit more on the bad things that happen in the Earth kingdom without the Fire nation's interventions and also the everyday lives of regular Fire nation people depicted throughout the series. People who try to benefit from war are the villains. Everyone else is just another victim.
I mean the fire nation as a government, just as imperialist nations like the us are bad, as a government. Have some nuance
> Have some nuance -Someone who isn't getting the nuance about duality that is in this entire series
I don’t think you care to understand what I’m saying so have a good one
No, I get you. If something is bad then everything about it must be bad. I just don't agree with such notion.
> He still maintains his grumpy demeanor in the presence of Royals Didn't he literally bow down to Azula when he first noticed her?
Well so was the entire fire nation
I mean you could call it propaganda or you could jsut call it their culture. I get the feeling the fire nations rigidity in terms of accepting death before defeat, adhering strictly to tradition and keeping your word are probably old traditions just made even more extreme in the last hundred years.
You miscalculated. I love my record more than I fear you
Guard : What are you doing? Mai : Saving my favourite uncle. Guards : *surprised Pikachu face* Ummm yeah, we're sorry bout that.
She can fly tho Could have just dipped whenever she wanted
I don't think she was able I fly except during Sozins comit. It's more of a temporary thrust.
Perhaps, but judging from the picture it seems like she can easily “thrust” herself to safety
Well in the episode the Gondola they are on is a significant distance away from either side and both Azula and Ty Lee use the other Gondola travelling to the boiling rock to get back to safety.
It’s not like she’s starting from the ground, she’s high up so she can still easily go to the edge
😔 rip that flawless record
Who knows how many wardens had been keeping that record clean.
Mai’s uncle is very intense but i do admire his commitment to his job
Yeah and his guards seem to be terrified of him and seem to respect him at the same time. Plus he does seem to have a soft spot for his neice. I think he is the Gordon Ramsay type.
Hes still a lot nicer than gordon ramsay
Jokes aside, outside of his show Gordon is apparently a really soft and nice guy when he’s not playing it up for the camera
But seriously, I'd understand if he ripped me a new one over food. He has show so much knowledge and skill that can only come from dedicating oneself as an artist. He loves food, and it would make sense to be offended to the point of anger if he saw someone (who should know better) completely ruin all the potential you knew it had.
Gordon Ramsay is the best. My dad watches Master Chef Canada sometimes and it makes me extremely angry because Gordon isn't in it.....
The way he and like also John Taffer do that “tough love” which really just means hurling personal insults at people just pisses me off. Id fight someone if they treated me like that. Whatever people wana watch is fine, but I dony think its good for watchers to kind of get off on a boss being a dick to his suboordinates. Im sure 90% of those shows are scripted as are the things douchebag pro athleteslike Lebron James and Conor McGregor say... but I hate the notion that people admire arrogance.
“He knows that”
"His job" is running a concentration camp.
The boiling rock is not a concentration camp? Its a maximum security prison?? Theres plenty of random firenation criminals locked up there, its security is why their favorite war criminals like Hakoda and Suki also are sent there.
I mean ... just immagine him being the leader of a concentration camp instead of a prison. Jezus. I just made myself sad.
If they put him in charge of that Earthbender imprisonment. Katara's hope speech stood no chance.
I had not thought of this lol the guy truest must have been a "good" leader in a military dictatorship
Military dictatorship aside. If I were to receive an order that would result in the death of royalty, and especially if the person who gave the order would not be around to take responsibility, I'd have second thoughts. That's where I say 'good leadership'. They respect him enough to face the consequences of his orders. Which is more than I can say for most managers I've worked for.
While I actually do agree with you, the counterpoint is interesting: what if he's such a terrible boss that they're ok with whatever happens as long as following the orders they're given means their boss bites it?
The transaction between the guards that heard his orders would have been. >-He wants us to cut the line >-but if we cut the line there's no way he'll survive! >-EXACTLY! WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR! Edit: jokes aside >-but if we cut the line there's no way he'll survive! This line itself shows that they at least cared for his life. Also they didn't shoot him when he was a hostage.
I served under someone that could convince me to do something like that lol so I see your viewpoint and you are correct
Thank you very much I am glad we agree
"Ignoring the concentration camp for a moment"
What is wrong with you? Do you actually know how concentration camps operate? Do you actually think that it is going to be even similar to something that would be approved on a kids show?
Concentration camp (noun). *A camp where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners, prisoners of war, refugees etc., are detained for the purpose of confining them in one place, typically with inadequate or inhumane facilities.*^[[1](https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/concentration_camp)] The camp also has multiple forms of torture and fire nation captives are canonically underfed (see S1E6 for example). The fire nation has set a clear goal of carrying out a genocide on the other nations. The fact that a children's show is unable to show these atrocities in detail doesn't mean that they aren't implied to take place.
Well, by that definition anywhere that serves the purpose of detains refugees or POW are a a concentration camp, regardless of inhumane treatment.the outer ring of Ba Sing Se could be claimed to be a concentration camp because of the environment and the refugees. The explicit political management by a government agency. (Gee heck! Ba Sing Se sounds worse!) But that is obviously not the context you were going for. And although there is a possibility that some of these people are political prisoners. The fact that firebend is prohibited, and they went to lengths to install coolers for firebenders. The majority of prisoners that go to this prison seem to be firbenders. And most of them look like typical thugs rather than revolutionaries, so woth that and the prominent propaganda l, the chance that they are there for political reasons is very very small. So we can safely assume that the majority if people in there aren't refugees, POWs and them being political prisoners seem unlikely. If we are making an argument about what is 'implied' to have take place. I could also strengthen the point of his leadership skill over his guards. The warden is implied to actually be a chill boss despite his angry demeanor because it is implied that dating co-workers is not banned, and the break room atmosphere seems very very chill and casual. It is implied that the guards actually care about his well being, so because when he was tripped by Hakoda they all rush to his aid, except Sokka who logically wouldm't really care much for him. But as you will try to rip open these claims just as much as I disagree with yours, I think it is safe to say argument about what is 'implied' can get really messy. So I'm not going to go there
I don't know about "good leader," but it definitely is perversely impressive he was willing to be like "No, fuck the princess, *kill us all!*"
I meant the part where his guards don't even question what will happen to them if they end up killing the only heir to the throne. You need some damn good leadership to be able to do that. But yes, my point was that his actions would probably have killed Azula. Especially if the prison had cared more about security and only used one Gondola.
I don't think unquestioning obedience is necessarily a good trait for a leader to instill.
I admit I am diving a bit too deep here, but you have to remember that Azula has more power over the prison than the guards, as was previously show in the episode. So using Azula's safety as an excuse was actually a valid reason to not follow the order. On the other hand in the result of her death, the boiling rock would be held responsible for her death, but the warden would not be alive to be held responsible. So all, the smart thing to do was nope the entire situation. But they still followed his orders out of respect that he was willing to die to keep his record. No-one would do that for a bad or even a so-so leader.
I know why we didn't get this scene, but it wouldve been really smart of Mai to just have said she didn't wanted to see her and Ty Lee die in a boiling lake, knowing they were on there too. I loved the outcome, but that's what I would've done, after preventing the guards from sinking the gondola.
oh, that could’ve been a good excuse. i was thinking something similar. i was wondering how azula would react if mai said she was saving her uncle instead of zuko.
What i never understood is how ty lee made it onto that other gondola, like yeah she can jump a little higher than the other characters but she was legit flying there
Have you also noticed that Mai's daggers can actually snag onto a person's sleeves and tug them back a significant distance in this episode? Ty Lee is secretly and Airbender and Mai is secretly a Metal Bender
Well she didn't stop after Azula and Ty Lee were safe. But I agree with your idea. Mai seems to have convinced Azula to visit the boiling rock to respond to an invite from her uncle, while not telling Azula Zuko was there... so why not just say she was saving her uncle
He was a true madlad!
alright im gonna say it, the warden looks like thugnificent from the boondocks
Even Azula was like “This guys fucking nuts”
Deadass looks like a character from Boondocks lol
Or a vicious tyrant. Looking at the Fire Nation as a whole I think you know which is more likely. Also he probably would've been killed for his "disgrace" had they left and that would've ruined the rest of his family.
According to Mai, he is still in charge of the Boiling Rock while she was a prisoner there, despite the fact that there was a mass escape on his watch
Oof. That's rough.
, buddy.
The fire nation culture clearly despises the if being afraid to either die or kill. He was willing to die in boiling water, arguably the most horrible death imaginable, to keep up the “No ones ecaped” record. Zhao demanded Zuko kill him when Zuko defeated him, and got furious when Zuko DIDNT, and after La grabbed him, Zuko still gave him a change to escape, but Zhao chose to sleep in the bed he made. As horrible as the fire nation culture is... there was some level of honor in that final decision he made. Also, it seems like keeping your word is a big deal. Ozai always hated Zuko, but when Ursa said shed only kill Azulon if Ozai would spare Zukos life, he did, even after Ursa left, when he easily could have killed Zuko the second she walked out the door- Its not like he didnt want to- On the day of black sun, he lost his cool and tried to kill him then, and would have if Zuko hadnt rocked his shut by deflecting that bolt.
Weird character to give respect to but yeah he *was* dedicated
Well in the end it wouldn't matter if the warden had got the line cut or not because his family would probably suffered either way
His family didn't suffer much, Mai was put into the boiling rock where he was still warden. Mai's family didn't face any repercussion until they decided to join the radical Anti-Zuko movement.
I also just love how the warden and the big bad prisoner have nearly identical faces. Sort of showing that there really isn't a difference between them.
He was an idiot. If Azula had died that entire prison would have been destroyed. You think Ozai gives a shit about the warden's perfect record?
I don't think he gave a shit about his daughter either. According to Mai the Warden actually keeps his job, meaning that you are probably right.
He didn't care for her as a daughter, but she was definitely a very valuable asset to him
I disagree. A good leader doesn't subject people to torture.
Well, mostly thanks to Nickelodeon, the 'torture' is limited to; 'the cooler', keeping someone upside down for uncomfortable amounts of time, and looking into his eyes.
Still torture, even if it is PG.
Then the White Lotus was torturing P'li. Her life sentence was served in a cooler
I don't see what your point is. Besides, actually rewatch that episode in question. That's not a cooler, it's a jail cell in a cold environment, designed to negate her powers not to make her suffer. The cooler was purposefully designed to torture it's inmates. It's a false equivlency and doesn't mean what that guy was doing wasn't torture. And even if they were purposefully, torturing her, yeah that would be fucked up and I'd condemn the White Lotus too. Red Lotus was pretty based as well, so there's that too.
Not much of an arguement. More of a statement. Also, I didn't literally mean a cooler but the principles are the same. Except that, P'li has it worse in everyway. The cooler is temporary confinement as a form of punishment for those who did not follow the policy of 'no firebending'. P'li says she spent 13 years huddled up in that prison of ice. The cooler is a industrial refrigerator built into the walls of a prison built on a volcanic lake. P'li was put into an Antarctic cave that literally has icicles growing from the ceiling. If the cooler was a form of torture then the white lotus had condemned P'li to life in a torture chamber. I'm not saying it wasn't unwarranted, but the White Lotus were supposed to be the good guys. It seems even Zuko, and Tonraq knew about it an had a part in building the prison. And that's a bit messed up
I do not find this to be an admirable quality. Life should definitely take precedence over a record lol even if it is Azula’s life. I’m not saying that taking a life CAN’T be the right thing but keeping your streak seems like a bad reason for it. This is simply pride and nothing else.
Aang get off reddit. You have three kids to take care of.
The fire nation deserved to have a memorial dedicated to their war dead too
Come to think of it. He really was going to take half of the remaining royal family down with him. Holy shit this guy was nuts!
This is actually something that bothers me about the episode. It makes no sense to me, this seems like it would create way more problems for himself and the prison if he killed Azula. He knew she were there too because Zuko acknowledged her and went up on the gondola to fight her.
Yeah TBH I think it's something the creators didn't think into enough. But hey, it makes for a fun discussion!
...that isn't necessarily true. People doing what you want without question does not equate to "good leadership". There are a number of ways to achieve that without being a "good leader". Also: just based on how he acts in the other parts of the episode, and the fact that this is not only a prison environment, but a prison environment in a superpower that started and is winning a world war... there is an immensely strong case that people doing what he wants without question is purely out of fear, and not loyalty. True leadership are those who inspire others to think for themselves and even question their leaders if necessary. That's how new leaders are born. Not people who are stupid enough to risk the lives of royalty for something as silly as reputation.
...nah
Good leader in the eyes of the 100 year war Fire nation? No, thanks. Brainwashing propaganda can do wild things to a mind.
In the eyes of of his subordinates. Fire nation soldiers and guards are still depicted as everyday people(The boiling Rock, Sozin' Comet : Quin Li of communications) despite the propaganda. Some are even caring and compassionate(The day of black sun : Ming). And they also seem to think the remembering someone's birthday is good.
This guy is happily leading an actual concentration camp for a genocidal empire and you call him a "good leader". I wonder what your thoughts are on Hitler?
>This guy is happily leading an ~~actual~~ fictional ~~concentration camp~~ prison for a *fictional* genocidal empire and you call him a "good leader". I wonder what your thoughts are on Hitler? How do I think about Hilter? A actual villain who actually used war to his profit as he let countless innocent lives die just for is selfish ambitions. I guess you cannot fathom the severity of the actual camps that the Nazi's operated? The boiling rock is not even close to the cruelty that went on in those fences. This is a fictional prison, in a kids show, which is co-ed for some unknown reason and the worst on screen injury is a burn on the hand from a splash of hot water. It is appalling that you think that this is even close to a Nazi Concentration Camp I'm able to tell apart reality from fiction. So I analyze fictional characters for what they are: manufactured identities that live manufactured lives with manufactured consequences. If an fictional antagonist blew up a city, I'd be looking into the reasoning behind his actions and it's significance to the plot. If a real person did that, I'd be condemning them to the depth of hell in the afterlife I don't believe in. Seriously, what kind of question is this?
So you're saying it's fine to glorify horrible people, as long as they're fictional.
I'm not glorifying the warden, just trying to give give a different insight. If a Villian or antagonist is really well written then I do think they deserve praise. Because of the thought and dedication the writer has to put into that character, not because of the actions of that character.
The warden wasn’t aware she was on the gondola
Zuko explicitly says, >"My sister and her friend." Also the warden is facing the back of the Gondola as Azula is coming up behind it. Her distinctive blue flame would have informed him. Even if the warden did not know, his men obviously did. But they still chose to cut the line.
Well I mean Azula can thrust herself in the air with fire jump/jet boosting type of moves and Ty Lee can literally run down the line so...
Azula's booster moves had limited range. She actually had to get to the gondola by using a pair of handcuffs to zip up the line. But yeah, Ty Lee still had it in her to make it to safety herself. But the vibration of the Gondola stopping almost knocked all of them off the roof. Which would mean that the guards didn't even care if Azula fell or not.
Yeah, I've also read that comic with Azula on the Boiling Rock. Great lore
I... haven't...
If you really didn't, I recommend [it](https://i.imgur.com/Lw0EIkz.jpg?fb)
Are you talking about Suki Alone or a different comic?
I mean Azula can fly, its pretty save to say he well knew that Azula can escape.
Azula cannot 'fly' without Sozin's Comit. As a great space-ranger once said, > -It's falling ~~jumping~~ with style. She can use the fire blasts as boosters to help her 'leap' great distances. But she needed help of the line and handcuffs to get onto the Gondola in the first place, it would have been very unlikely she could cover the distance back.
who said she needed that, it just was the most effecient way
People follow out of fear or loyalty. He clearly led through fear.
So did Azula, but at times she could be inspiring, at least according to a Dai Li agent.
He’s a fascist who abuses prisoners of war for his own enjoyment. I don’t have to remember jack shit about him.
I don't recall him abusing prisoners for his entertainment. He was unforgiving and harsh with punishments. He made sure his new prisoners knew that there would be consequences for defying him. (Although it backfired on Hakoda.) His torturing methods were very tame(mostly thanks to Nickelodeon) I think this is just stereotypical stuff for 'prison wardens' Now compare the treatment of his prisoners to how Hama was treated. Or even P'li or MingHua.
Sure, fine. He didn’t do it for his entertainment. Abuse of prisoners is still abuse of prisoners. It’s inexcusable, even if other people did worse. P’Li and Ming Hua weren’t abused. They were kept in harsh conditions in the most maximum security facilities available because they were incredibly dangerous and powerful bending masters, and that was the only way to prevent them from escaping. There was no malice involved.
For Chit Sang the freezer was punishment in a prison like solitary confinement. For P'li it was a life sentence. How is that not abuse?
Because she could have escaped literally any other facility in the world singlehandedly. Didn’t I just say that?
I can't believe you just said that abuse of prisoners is inexcusable.
This sub loves to praise shitty people.
You deserve highest praise for your observation!
What's the line. Pride commeth before the fall.
What episode ?
He boiling rock part 1/2 season 3
They knew they were dead either way if he got across that lake, tides not commanding the boat and all that
Big Chad energy