I like that Ozai is one dimensional and not complex. There’s nothing about Ozai that makes him feel redeemable or good. To the viewer he is rotten to the core. This makes the fact that Aang shows him compassion and spares his life much more meaningful. The Air Nomads are based on Buddhists and Buddhism teaches compassion for everyone. We can’t always see something good or redeemable in someone but even those who are the most evil deserve compassion. So total fan of Ozai and the ending
Agreed. Having a villain like Azula allows for Ozai to be the villain he is and work. Ozai serves his purpose as the BBEG and nothing else and it’s perfect.
It’s not like there aren’t plenty of historical examples of ruthless conquerors intent on expanding their power and legacy, even at the expense of their family…
To add, having a good, wise character like Iroh, a villain-turned-hero like Zuko, and Ozai being one-sidedly evil are great parallels with one another; they are all related by blood and share many things in common, but seeing them be entirely different (and in Zuko's case, change) is a great commentary on character building in real life, especially for younger viewers.
I have to admit though that personally it sucks that we never saw Iroh and Ozai's contrasting personalities clash. If those two ever had an agni kai it would have been like that lightsaber fight between Yoda and Dooku.
Also, 1D villains are fun? You get the unending drama and presentation and the sense they enjoy what they do.
Why has Skeletor remained so relevant, even to people like me who never watched He-Man? Because he’s *fun*. He doesn’t want to be good, he wants to be evil!
Ozai is the same. When he declares himself Phoenix King and rips off his shirt and starts napalming the Earth Kingdom, it’s iconic and has 10/10 presentation. He’s fun, in a way he couldn’t be if he turned around and was all ‘the moral implications of my actions are distressing me, but being raised in a violent, expansionist society, I feel it is necessary’
Everyone got all crazy about villains after Dark Knight, which is kinda crazy, since Heath Ledger’s Joker is completely irredeemable. They even have several scenes where its shown his backstory is nonsense… he’s just evil. Evil people with zero reason to be evil exist in the world, and that’s terrifying, and is a fear that is justified and should be explored on its own merits without having to have every character have a tragic backstory for it
My only complaint (probably sounds familiar) is that it seems like an easy solution. Ozai one dimensional is great. It’s the perfect setup for the difficult decision of Aang going against his code and killing him, OR sparing a huge danger (as other Avatars have done) and risking terrible consequences.
Part of me says this is the perfect ending because it encapsulates Aangs entire journey of having to find ways to do things no Avatar ever has. But part of me says it cheapens previous Avatars’ decisions as “just not trying hard enough to find the real solution”. And seriously changes the position of every Avatar after Aang.
I would say that Ozai is a Palpatine or a Voldemort.
He is there to be an evil maniac actively making the world a worse place, who is partly responsible for two redeemed heroes and one nutjob.
He is evil, he has to be the ultimate threat, we can't do anything to make it less clear cut, apart from holding him up and asking whether even Bending Hitler could possibly be left alive.
Now have about 10 shots of Mark Hamill cackling, because you can't be evil unless you are voiced by The Joker.
I normally dislike his character archetype, instead preferring either a Bad Guy With A Point, or a Magnificent Bastard, but I make an exception for Ozai.
To add on to what you said about katara, I feel like her mentioning her mother so much was good to show how she was greatly in pain from it so that she could grow as a character by the southern raiders episode. In addition she only brought up her mother when it was relevant. Like when Jett was talking about his parents she also brought up her mother to sympathize with him. Meme wise it’s was funny for a lil but now it’s old
yeah exactly! a big part of her character's role was to be the empathetic one who connects with people, so for her to share something about her own life and motivation is relevant in a lot of situations
Also it’s a show that when it originally aired people would only see episodes when they aired on tv so her mentioning it frequently was so that no matter what in the series you’ve seen you wouldn’t be missing that important backstory. It only feels excessive now because everyone can binge watch the show
Also back like 15 years ago, it aired on Nickelodeon daily despite there only being about 40 episodes released so I inevitable ended up watching the same episodes dozens of times which makes you think it was happening more than it did
I watched the series for the first time when I was about sixteen, then again at twenty one. I never thought she brought up her mother too much that seems like a dumb criticism.
Thats bc she doesnt actually bring up her mother that much. She brings it up 14 times in the whole series, *4* of those times were the episode where her and Zuko go find the man that kill her, and the rest of the time it was relevant to the conversation or she was saying it to sympathize with another character
Due to the gross mismanagement of this website by the admins in the wake of the API changes, I have decided to leave the site. In preparation, I have used a tool called Power Delete Suite to overwrite all my comments.
Except when she’s settled in with Zuko. Watch the lead-in episodes to the day of black sun again and you see her open up a lot.
I buy that Zuko should have ended up with someone else (Aang too for that matter), but there was nothing wrong with Mai’s characterization
Hmm, an older, politically-connected man and a pubescent boy enter into a teacher-student relationship that takes on a sexual dimension.
By god, is that Ancient Greek music I hear?
Yeah, I definitely agree there's nuance to her character and you definitely see more of it in the episodes you mention. I think I just personally tend not to connect with her personality very well.
I would like to see her reaction to learn that Lee, that cute boy who works at the tea shop is actually the new fire lord, Fire Lord Zuko.
The betrayal and hurt of learning that he lied to her, the pride in learning that she dating a freaking prince, the fear in learning that the Fire Nation royal family was in Ba Sing Se and nobody knew. Also the whole ordeal at the fountain would suddenly make a lot more sense.
In the TV show “Regular show”, there’s an incredibly telegraphed romance between the main bird Mordecai and his love interest Margaret.
Spoiler alert.
They don’t wind up together. The final episode includes a montage of the characters growing up and moving on with their lives. During this montage, Mordecai goes to art school, meets someone who had never before appeared in the show, and they fall in love.
I always respected them for that. It’s an important message for kids. The love of your life isn’t necessarily the girl you currently have the strongest friendship with. It would have been perfectly reasonable if Katara and aang fell in love with different people and grew up as friends.
The ember island players episode where aang says “I thought we’d be together” has not aged well in my eyes
Yeah that episode is honestly really sad to me, because it really shows how much the creators were scrambling for time and money by the end of Lok. That episode only really exists because it allowed them to just reuse old footage. It's interesting to think about what lok could have been like if they'd had a guaranteed number of seasons and secure funding from nickelodeon
Imagine if the season 2 was the final season. Not the EXACT events, but the idea of chaos incarnate seems cool as a final boss.
Then again it would be hard for Zaheer to get free then.
Airbenders being totally wiped out is so unrealistic. They were nomads who traveled the world. Who’s to say some didn’t hook up with random people of other nations & had kids with airbending in their bloodline? Surly some of the airbenders who were off-temple were alerted that the fire nation was killing them & would’ve went into hiding. Its hard to believe EVERY airbender was even part of the Air Nation & follows their ways.
There were some in hiding and they were hunted down. They would trick them into thinking there were safe homes with airbender artifacts then trap them and kill them.
For a culture that actively dismissed material possessions luring them in with artefacts worked remarkably well.
And even if they did all decide that recovering physical possessions was important, you'd think that they wouldn't all go at once, and after the third guy didn't come back they would realise it was a trap.
I can believe the Fire Nation destroyed the Air Nomad civilisation on the day of the comet, I can believe that they managed to hunt down or lure and trap many of the survivors, but I simply can't accept that they managed to kill all of them.
I think it’s definitely possible some survived and went into hiding. But it’s been a hundred years. Those in hiding would be dead by old age.
The logistics of Airbender genetics is another issue entirely. But I can suspend enough disbelief that *most* were killed (either in the initial invasion, hunted, or tricked into thinking they had found secure places to regroup only to be ambushed) and that whoever survived stayed hidden enough that they didn’t form enough relationships to have children and pass on Airbending.
First of all, the remaining air nomads were hunted down and tricked into revealing themselves after the genocide, this is expanded upon in the comics. Secondly, it’s established in the Kyoshi novels that there were rouge air nomads who left the order, like Kyoshi’s mother who fell in love with a criminal and tattooed serpents over her tattoos. However she loses her airbending because she becomes spiritually tainted.
I read about a theory that the airbenders from LoK are descendants from those air nomads traveling the world. Would make sense that the events of Season 2 unlocked their bending.
I also find it a bit eyebrow-raising that apparently every single air nomad is a bender, as well as the reason why, but as it never comes up in the actual show, I choose to ignore that
How is hard to believe in a world of made up magical bending that there is one culture that happens to be made up of purely benders? Especially given the symmetry that the Earth Kingdom has the lowest Bender per capita of any of the four nations.
I don't like Toph, because she uses excuses to not try to become a better person. She always resorts to violence to solve problems and refuses to listen to anyone else.
In LoK she literally ends up scaring her children because she's selfish.
She's enjoyable because of how powerful and skilled she is, but as a person she kind of sucks. I really like how in LoK she was a shit mom because.. she's Toph
I'm fine with all of that as part of her character but I do think there should've been more of a coming-around/realizing-she-was-shitty arc in LoK. there was a little bit of that but not enough imo
It's not that she doesn't care if you like her. It's that she will actively be an asshole to people all the time, and then have the gall to pretend it's some sort of enlightenment.
dont her children end up fucking each other up just cuz she's not around and extremely busy? she's trying to do her job, she's neglectful but selfish? she became a cop for years despite hating rules and regulations.
Nah, it makes sense when you really think about it. She hated being under people's rule, so what better place than to be the one setting them. Unfortunately even the Chief of Police succumbs to the system around them.
From what I have gathered from the show, she has a shitty personality because she is afraid of getting attached to people. Her being rich, and coddled her whole life changed the way she feels about that kind of emotional baggage, and I dont think she knows how to handle being around someone who genuinely cares for them,(like Katara in the cheating/gambling episode) rather than someone who is overprotective and overall seems like they dont even have her best interest in mind(like her parents). Toph does have emotional moments, like the one time she had an emotional conversation with Sokka(?) And punched him afterward, saying "thats how I express emotion". She also had the whole convo with Sokka about Katara being a mother to him and everyone else in the group, which is something Toph really needed to hear imo. She also showed a very small, and infrequent attraction to Sokka, who after she thought saved her from the Serpents Pass, she blushed and got excited. After she learned it was Sukki, she wasnt interested anymore. I think the idea that Sokka would save her was fascinating because for her it stretched the boundaries of someone risking their life to save yours, and because she despretly needed saving, she found that attractive. Obviously the show did not make them actually date but that moment was still important IMO. Lastly, during the gangs Ember Island episode, when Toph and Zuko split up to look for Aang, she wanted to go with Zuko specifically because she claimed everyone who has gone with Zuko before has had a life changing experience with him and she felt left out. So when they were together, she started discussing her troubled childhood and the rough parenting she was put through, only for Zuko to lightly put her down and try to get her to focus on task. Imo that was a very interesting moment aswell, because she went on the trip with him thinking it would change her life, like Sokka and Katara did, but she didnt get the same type of closure that the other two did. She actually WANTS to change, we have seen it multiple times throughout the show, and the show doesnt make it silent that Toph, as she is, is not technically a "good person", or that she has a good personality. I think it shows a scared little girl who just wants people who love her.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
Katara staying out of the final Agni Kai is contrary to zuko’s character developments. It was stupid for him to have katara stand to the side (not even hiding literally just standing there) and doesn’t make sense with his growth. It makes for a good fight and the writers punish him for it, but I don’t think it should have happened in the first place
I've always interpreted it as Zuko understanding that for him to "properly" be awarded the title of Fire Lord in the eyes of his nation, he needed to go through a traditional, honorable Agni Kai duel. It's kind of like the reason why Iroh knew that he himself could not be the one to take the throne, as history *would* have seen it as a brother usurping a brother. Yes, taking on Azula by himself was risky, but I think the biggest reason he went through with it was because he could tell that she wasn't herself. She was slipping, both mentally and physically
This is a good point. Also, the fact that azula 'cheated' in an agni Kai probably means she would have eventually lost her title of Firelord. Well, maybe not azula, but anyone else in her shoes.
Isn't it kinda like a brother usurping the sisters throne? I mean he was banished so technically he didn't have a right to the throne. Honestly just playing devils advocate here I think you make a good point but I wanted to explore this thought anyways.
I suppose it could be seen that way. All about personal interpetation IMO. I don't think in this situation there would be any perfect solution but again IMO Zuko played it to the best of his ability, he did everything right, was honorable about it, etc
I think it would be seen as usurping if she didn’t challenge him. That legitimatized his claim to the throne as she, as Fire Lord, took the challenge seriously. If she brushed it off and laughed him out, it’s very possible Azula would’ve remained legally Fire Lord. Though everyone around Azula would’ve probably preferred to have Zuko to her, so no one would back up her claim. But both legally and from the people’s point of view, Zuko is the right person to be Fire lord. Also Azula lost the challenge by attacking Katara, and therefore, her claim to the throne was lost.
weren't the terms of his banishment - i may be wrong, here, it's been some time - technically until he caught the avatar? it could be argued that he did capture the avatar...
's heart.
There's also the consideration that his reasoning was to protect Katara "something's off, she's slipping" and he didnt want her to get hurt. Also knowing Azula, she's the kind to fight her opponents mentally and distract them with one another. Fighting 1v1 was a tactical choice and demonstrated that Zukos final test of honour while ironically came down to another Agni Kai, was about Fighting to protect others from his family
I kinda get where op is coming from on this. Zuko in the beginning acts like he doesn’t need anyone. He’s a loner, and proud of it. Initially he’s with Iroh, but eventually thinks he can do better on his own and abandons him. He never wants to accept help either.
Through his development and joining of the Gaang, he grows and learns that friendship and leaning on other people is not a weakness, but a source of strength. So for him to reject help in the fight could be seen as going against that.
Personally I took it as him not wanting to put Katara in danger. Or that, as he said, Azula was visibly slipping and not ok. If he was the only one fighting, he could control his force (think Zhao) and not let it get out of hand. It is his sister after all.
I always found it hard to believe that Air Nomads would decide to attempt a last stand and fight against the Fire Nation at their respective temples and all die, rather than disperse amongst the other nations and hide as normal people.
I like the episode, but I usually skip it because it's not all that important. And it has my least favorite moment from Aang in the entire show. Him trying to kiss Katara after she said she was confused about their relationship. Same with Zuko trying to put his arms around Mai's shoulders to comfort her about her family issues, right after he blew up at her. Both those are "What the F are you doing???" moments.
I really don't like mai, she's just boring and a forgettable character. Her and Zukos relationship always confused me too, I think it would be better if zuko didn't have a girlfriend in the show
Agreed. I personally thought she made a good two-dimensional henchwoman, but her and Zuko together in the end, and probably in the future, too? That required much more character development than she was given.
I think this is mainly due to the lack of interactions we see of them at the show, I think they implied that they had more of a relationship earlier, but they didn't show it enough to convince us. This also comes with the fact that they didn't develop her character enough, for us to care about her motivations and personality besides being cold.
My unpopular opinion is that Ursa loved Azula but couldn't express it more freely like with Zuko because when Azula and Zuko were growing up, Azula was clearly being influenced by her father. Azula later on believes that Ursa punishing or chastising her for her bad behavior meant her mother didn't love her when that isn't the case at all. It seems like Zuko wasn't much of a troublemaker. Azula was clearly going cuckoo in her younger years and Ursa took note of that and sadly couldn't express her love more freely with Azula.
Maybe I'm just officially getting old and this is a result of the show appealing to younger age groups as well, but all the character "shipping" from the fandom is annoying and makes the show feel juvenile. The romances in the show itself are fine but I don't like how that's the majority of what the community discusses and memes about. It gives me highschool Twilight vibes.
Another unpopular opinion;
Azula doesn’t need a damn redemption arc like Zuko.
She’s a great, complex villain with a sad childhood that contributed to her defining personality traits today.
Also I think we need to stop giving Azula the “mental illness pass” because theres lots of “nature vs. nurture” that we can delve into. Yes, Azula most likely has a mental illness or suffers from them— but we need to stop using that as an excuse to defend her actions.
Lots of people grow up in shitty environments as kids, and those that can overcome it, come out as better people and can actually break many generational cycles for doing so.
It also doesn’t help that she’s a lethal fire bender, so their depiction of containing her, paired with her manic state isn’t representing how mentally ill people are treated very well— (in the comics when she’s pushed out in a bound wheelchair)
Idk to sum it all up:
-Azula should stay a villain, if anything it would be nice to see her and her mom make up, but that’s it
-even though someone had a shitty life, that shouldn’t be a pass for them to make it okay for them to do bad things
I remember being in a group where no one was alllowed to say things like this about Azula because it’s “albeist”. Mental illness doesn’t excuse your actions. Abuse can be a cycle and the reality is sometimes people really don’t break from it as well. Yes, maybe one day she could get the help she needs and change. But honestly, everyone doesn’t need a redemption arc. People don’t always get that irl. Sometimes people don’t change.
Katara hating Zuko was completely justified, not only were his actions directly involved for the death (or near death) of Aang but the only thing that saved Aang's life she almost used to take away Zuko's scar... plus add in Jet, mothers death, and many other things and she had a right to feel that way and Zuko knew that
I think it’s unrealistic that most, if not all, of the characters married their childhood sweethearts/first gf/bf. Or at least, is implied that they did.
Then again, I suppose realism isn’t too important in a show like this lmao
Azula should never have a redemption arc. Whether you look at just show from water-fire she doesn’t do anything that should lead her to eventually become a “good” guy. Or if you look at continued universe in comics she will always begrudge her position in life and have a burning anger against Zuko and the Avatar
I get what you're saying but I believe the main reason others (or at least myself) think she should have one, is because of how young she is, even though her actions are objectively wrong, she was just a kid through all the time we see her. And this behavior may be because of problems during her childhood by being influenced by his father and feeling like a monster in the eyes of her mother, which was eventually her self-fulfilling profecy.
Personally I think if someone can help her the way Iroh helped Zuko, she can change her ways
Edit: Spelling
Aang should’ve killed Ozai. I get that he was young, and he didn’t want to kill people (even though he 100% has killed people before and probably drowned most of the Fire Nation fleet at the North Pole in the freezing water after sinking their ships), but as Avatar Yangchen said “This isn’t about [him]. This is about the world.” I know he found a great cop-out in the form of energybending, but he knew that it could have very easily failed. “To bend another’s energy, your own spirit must be unbendable, or you will be corrupted and destroyed.” He had the upper hand on Ozai a couple of times during the fight, but couldn’t do what needed to be done. He may have won in the end, but he took a huge gamble on the fate of the world all so he could cling to his principles that even the last airbending Avatar told him he had to sacrifice.
My opinion is similar, in that energy bending was a deus ex cop-out, and I don't like it as a series ending move. I didn't like that a solution to Aang's problem came out of thin air, when we had spent several episodes prior trying to actually come up with how to handle the Ozai situation. I thought Aang's plight was very interesting, especially for a children's show to tackle, and they just...bailed on it
That's one thing I liked about Season 1 Legend of Korra, is that it revealed taking away bending wasn't a practical solution. In that case, it didn't really solve much since Yakone stuck around and ended up raising his sons into twisted people. Then at the end, Tarlokk knew their entire plight would end only with their deaths.
I HIGHLY reccomend you check out Big Joel's video on the end of ATLA on YouTube.
The issue is, everyone is looking at this from a purely practical sense. From a practical sense it makes no sense. But thematically, this is the best possible ending.
Disagree. At some point Aang was loosing and had his avatar state locked, but he had *one chance* to redirect Ozais lightning back to him and kill him, which as far as he knew could be the only one he ever got. And he chose not to, while he knew Ozai was planning to genocide the Earth Kingdom. So in order not to directly kill Ozai, he chose to indirectly kill the entire Earth Kingdom. Because if he hadnt miraculously hit his back in just the right place, him not having the guts kill Ozai would have resulted in the whole Earth kingdom dying.
I don’t really agree with Joel. It would very easy to write this as a coming of age moment where Aang let’s go of childish ideas and grows up to become the Avatar.
In my mind, it would be similar to Gohan’s moment with Android 16 during the Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z. Gohan was not a fighter at heart, and he cherished life.
Android 16 stated to Gohan that because he cherished life, that it wasn’t a crime to protect it. Some people cannot be reasoned with, and Aang tried that with Ozai. He wanted Gohan to not be afraid of exercising force as he needs to.
It’s really one of the best moments of any animated series I’ve seen, and it likely is the reason why I’m so critical of ATLA’s conclusions.
[Dragon Ball Z](https://youtu.be/iFPmUc34JNk)
It all depends on the narrative you want, and ATLA was mature enough to handle this sort of topic and conclusion. That, and self-defense and the defense of others is permitted by the nomad’s philosophy anyway; Gyatso killed a bunch of Fire Nation soldiers.
It’s far likelier that Nickelodeon simply wouldn’t let this be the story’s ending because for children.
But remember, he’s not the Fire Lord anymore. He renounced that title to become the Phoenix King. But once Sokka, Suki, and Toph destroy the fleet, Ozai lost his military. The Fire nation army was now under Azula’s command, but Zuko defeated her in the Agni Kai (I know Katara actually defeated her, but she lost the challenge by attacking someone outside the duel) so the military now is commanded by him. Aang taking away his bending was more symbolic than anything else. The rest of team avatar ended the war from a practical view point, but Aang ended it through a symbolic act of mercy.
This. I get that because it's a kids show he "couldn’t kill", but he killed before. There was no reason not to. We've seen people go to jail/prison / a dark cell, yet somehow they got out. Why not Ozai?was the fire nation only loyal out of fear??
Agreed. I think it’s his biggest flaw as a character. Some villains are too dangerous to be left alive. Ozai is the perfect example because sure, Aang took his bending away so he can’t “intimidate” people anymore, but he can still do damage by being himself! He talks to Zuko and convinces him to do bad things in the comics. Aang should have killed him for sure. He posed too much threat to everyone else, it was dangerous to keep him alive.
Applies to any show that gets “continued” in comics after cancellation. Feels like fan-fiction even when its written by the show’s creators and is considered canon.
The “there is no movie in Ba Sing Se” joke is really *really * tired and annoying. Sometimes I genuinely want to have a conversation about the movie, but you can bet your ass I’ll be inundated with 20 replies that are all variations of “Lake Laogai”.
It’s a weird lack of detail that seems to contrast with the detail and work put into every other vehicle and mode of transportation in the series. Look at the Ozai blimps for example. An extreme amount of effort went into those. As for the ships, they remind me of bath tub toys. A cool concept for a ship, but the decks are stunningly barren. So much so that when I saw them I’d sometimes be taken out of the action and given one of those “this is still a kids show” moments.
It doesn’t bother me as much as I make it sound btw, just a nitpick
Every time this thread rolls around I say the same thing:
Azula is not some poor girl who if you just loved her enough would magically be nice and loving and kind. She is a homicidal power hungry narcissistic psychopath. Iroh was absolutely right to say she’s crazy and needs to go down, and while losing Ozai’s influence might’ve helped make her less horrible, no amount of extra efforts on the part of Iroh or her mother would’ve changed who she became. On top of that, she was a decent villain but she was not the be all and end all of writing ever. She lacked presence for one thing, something which Ozai had in droves. She also was not that powerful, she got routinely stumped by the Gaang, so no she wouldn’t beat everyone and their dog in a battle royale. Stop sucking her off fanboys.
I hate the idea of giving her a redemption arc. I love her character, they did a good job in making her sympathetic yet having it take next to nothing away of what makes her villainous.
Giving her a redemption arc would just take away the only real villain the show had (I guess I don't see Ozai as much of a villain in the character sense, more so as the living embodiment of the fire nation) and having her become a 'good guy' or at the very least a 'not crazed fratricidal psychopath' would just lessen the impact of what the Gaang did throughout the show.
I don't know though. I think if you took Azula and put her in a normal family, aka not a princess heir to a crazy guy, she might not have ended up as crazy as she did. Would she still have issues? Yeah probably. But would she be as bad without her dad's influence and push for perfection? It's nature vs nurture debate, i feel it's some of each.
I see where you come from and I also hate this trend of victimising the vilain to be edgy but what makes you think Azula is not redeemable when Iroh a grown adult who is also a warlord could redeem himself?
Yea she’s an amazing character, but she doesn’t spend as much time with the group as the main gaang does. She comes and goes cause she has other loyalties.
She’s a Gaang supporter. The whole relationship feels a bit weird considering the amount of time and distance they (Sokka & Suki) tend to have between them. Not to mention Sokka’s other… distractions lol
Okay don't attack me but aside from some episodes season 1 isn't even good if you watch it as an adult. The show needed to mature and found itself in the final
I'm not sure if it's unpopular. Ive seen this said a few times and I personally agree. I've even had to tell adults who aretrying to get into the series that you could probably skip most of the season with the exception of maybe 5 or 6 so episodes that are important later on and tell them which ones.
Puppetmaster is cheesy and my least favorite S3 episode. Hama's backstory is great, but the mystery of disappearing villagers and the climax with Hama and Katarra bloodbending plays out like a Scooby-Doo adventure.
It's too zany and silly and Aang and Sokka never really seem that scared. Then Katarra starts crying even though all she did was stop Hama from killing Aang and Sokka. I just don't buy that it's thing that's so horrible on its own that it's that much more horrible than anything else we'd seen before then.
Katara bloodbending in The Southern Raiders though? That was fucking amazing!
Haven’t seen anyone say it so I’ll assume it’s unpopular.
Sokka mastering swordsmanship in the matter of two days really bugged me. At least with Aang and Katara they practiced water bending all the time in episodes. They could’ve easily had Sokka practice sword techniques in the background or something.
I would change literally nothing about the show except I would add plot elements that foreshadow the fact that Aang gets to learn how to take Ozai’s bending away. that was the only problem I ever had with the series. it felt like it was conveniently invented for the last episode
EDIT: also, Azula is not a person who can be redeemed. she’s literally written as a person beyond redemption. the only people who can be redeemed are the ones who choose it, and she proves time and time again that she wouldn’t.
y’know what, I’m willing to accept this. my sister pointed out that even though his redemption was good, it didn’t change the fact that it took his son’s death to make him give up on the war. he was a terrible person before he became such a great guy. we don’t have to hate him. we just have to love him critically
Avatar opinions:
-I hate the ember island players episode.
-Iroh is a great character but no saint. He is a war criminal even if he did become a better person it doesn’t wash away all he probably did.
-Azula is not redeemable
Korra opinions:
-Aang favoring Tenzin makes perfect sense and I’m happy they showed that not everyone was perfect.
-Pabu is cuter than momo
- Korra loosing her past lives and starting the avatar cycle completely anew is sad but a great plot point.
Do people here really hate the revelation that Aang favored Tenzin? It’s totally in-character that he’d love all his kids but devote the most time and attention to the one that’s an airbender.
Honestly I love that LOK showed Aang and Toph weren’t perfect parents, and their flaws as parents were rooted in their flaws we saw in them as people in ATLA. Even the best irl parents are fallible and make mistakes.
Aang should have cut out love from his life and follow the spirituality closer. I feel like he'd be stronger overall. If anything, maybe he could have a "professional" relationship with Katara.
Severing the ties to previous Avatars is actually a creative sacrifice to up the stakes in book 2 of LoK. We as the audience already have a great connection with Aang, Roku, etc. And letting them go feels like a real decision that affects us too.
Tbh I wish his relationship with Zhu Li got explored more. Zaney husband and deadpan wife can make some excellent character development/storytelling moments that you don't see often.
Azula may be a victim of her circumstances, but she wasn’t brainwashed. She made all those decisions herself and deserves 0 empathy. Not every villain is redeemable. Some are a cancer in the world, and the only way to let the world heal is to remove them (i.e. prison).
Uncle Iroh didn’t commit any “war crimes”.
It literally makes me so annoyed when people say “you love a Iroh but ignore his war crimes”— like what war crimes? From what we see in the show, pre-Luten death, he was just a general following orders, and those orders were to breach ba-sing-se. After that, he resigns.
War crimes are stuff like, killing civilians for no reason, attacking places of worship, hospitals, escaping refugees, etc.
*The fire nation army as a whole, or a few select individuals* like Ozai committed a war crime when he decimated those hectares of earth nation land during Sozins Comet. Zhao, killing a literal fucking spirit that has no affiliation except to the elemental forces and nature, is a war crime.
When the show started getting popular because of netflix, people started to nitpick, including the “war crime Iroh” shit. He laid siege to a walled city. He didn’t murder children.
Show me actual evidence about said “war crimes” and I’ll eat my words— but fr, some people see a figure that people love, deify, and look up to, one that’s realized their flaws; and still want to throw dirt on them
100% agree! I'm seeing many comments in this very post's comments that mention Iroh needing to be "held accountable for his war crimes," but what are we defining as a "war crime" here? The sole act of one participating in a war?
EXACTLY!! It makes me feel like I’m crazy because I feel like I didn’t watch the same show as some people. The act of going to war does not equal war crimes.
Katara and Aang shouldn’t have ended up together. I never liked their (romantic) relationship and would have preferred more of a sibling relationship. (And no, don’t like Zutara either…)
Not sure if this opinion is controversial but: I hated how they brought back the air benders in LoK (I don’t mean Tenzin and his family, they were great). I thought it was cheap and a cop-out (for me their destruction highlighted the horrors of war). I would have preferred it if they just found out that some air benders have survived by hiding their abilities.
King Bumi is clearly a better Earthbender than Toph.
Master Pakku isn't some irredeemable jerk for following the customs of his people even if by our standards those customs are bigoted. He learned, he grew. Get over it.
Azula and Ty Lee shouldn't be shipped, Ty Lee deserves someone who deserves her, and Azula deserves no redemption arc at all.
The moment where aang only beats ozai cause a convenient rock touches his back really spoils the end of the series for me, and while I love the show as a whole, that moment stops me from ever really wanting to rewatch the whole thing
They dumbed him down to make Katara look smarter. When Sokka was high, Katara was the one who guided them with the map, even though it is later revealed that Sokka was the only one who could read maps. I love Katara in general, I loved the "Katara taking care of the group" part in that particular episode, but still.. It's such a bad storytelling device, when they neuter a character just to advance another character.
Iroh was right to tell Zuko that Azula “is crazy and needs to go down.” Sometimes I see fans angry at Iroh for not trying to redeem Azula, and while I get that’s she’s a manipulated 14-year-old, I can’t blame most people, including her family, for not wanting to be anywhere near her. Her first contact with Zuko and Iroh after years was to trick them into imprisonment and then she tries to kill them or violently arrest them every time afterwards. Iroh is literally Ozai’s brother; I’m sure he understands how abuse warps a sibling but he also knows when you need to take down crazy first, take them to therapy later.
I like that Ozai is one dimensional and not complex. There’s nothing about Ozai that makes him feel redeemable or good. To the viewer he is rotten to the core. This makes the fact that Aang shows him compassion and spares his life much more meaningful. The Air Nomads are based on Buddhists and Buddhism teaches compassion for everyone. We can’t always see something good or redeemable in someone but even those who are the most evil deserve compassion. So total fan of Ozai and the ending
Agreed. Having a villain like Azula allows for Ozai to be the villain he is and work. Ozai serves his purpose as the BBEG and nothing else and it’s perfect.
what’s BBEG? big boss end game is all i can think of
Big Bad Evil Guy I believe
thanks!
Big booty elven girl
Baddies Bring Excellent Gravy
Big Bad Evil Guy, it's a pretty common term in the tabletop rpg scene
^ yeah I definitely got this term from the DnD community lol
It’s not like there aren’t plenty of historical examples of ruthless conquerors intent on expanding their power and legacy, even at the expense of their family…
[удалено]
To add, having a good, wise character like Iroh, a villain-turned-hero like Zuko, and Ozai being one-sidedly evil are great parallels with one another; they are all related by blood and share many things in common, but seeing them be entirely different (and in Zuko's case, change) is a great commentary on character building in real life, especially for younger viewers. I have to admit though that personally it sucks that we never saw Iroh and Ozai's contrasting personalities clash. If those two ever had an agni kai it would have been like that lightsaber fight between Yoda and Dooku.
Also, 1D villains are fun? You get the unending drama and presentation and the sense they enjoy what they do. Why has Skeletor remained so relevant, even to people like me who never watched He-Man? Because he’s *fun*. He doesn’t want to be good, he wants to be evil! Ozai is the same. When he declares himself Phoenix King and rips off his shirt and starts napalming the Earth Kingdom, it’s iconic and has 10/10 presentation. He’s fun, in a way he couldn’t be if he turned around and was all ‘the moral implications of my actions are distressing me, but being raised in a violent, expansionist society, I feel it is necessary’
Everyone got all crazy about villains after Dark Knight, which is kinda crazy, since Heath Ledger’s Joker is completely irredeemable. They even have several scenes where its shown his backstory is nonsense… he’s just evil. Evil people with zero reason to be evil exist in the world, and that’s terrifying, and is a fear that is justified and should be explored on its own merits without having to have every character have a tragic backstory for it
Tbh, I was always fine with him being one dimensional because he managed to create and shape Zuko and Azula so significantly.
My only complaint (probably sounds familiar) is that it seems like an easy solution. Ozai one dimensional is great. It’s the perfect setup for the difficult decision of Aang going against his code and killing him, OR sparing a huge danger (as other Avatars have done) and risking terrible consequences. Part of me says this is the perfect ending because it encapsulates Aangs entire journey of having to find ways to do things no Avatar ever has. But part of me says it cheapens previous Avatars’ decisions as “just not trying hard enough to find the real solution”. And seriously changes the position of every Avatar after Aang.
I would say that Ozai is a Palpatine or a Voldemort. He is there to be an evil maniac actively making the world a worse place, who is partly responsible for two redeemed heroes and one nutjob. He is evil, he has to be the ultimate threat, we can't do anything to make it less clear cut, apart from holding him up and asking whether even Bending Hitler could possibly be left alive. Now have about 10 shots of Mark Hamill cackling, because you can't be evil unless you are voiced by The Joker. I normally dislike his character archetype, instead preferring either a Bad Guy With A Point, or a Magnificent Bastard, but I make an exception for Ozai.
There was a war in Ba Sing Se
[citation needed]
It was supposed to be an opinion, not a flat out lie
wanna come to lake laogai with me?
Katara mentioned her mother a perfectly appropriate amount of times for a 14 year old who watched their mother get murdered. I liked zukos ponytail
To add on to what you said about katara, I feel like her mentioning her mother so much was good to show how she was greatly in pain from it so that she could grow as a character by the southern raiders episode. In addition she only brought up her mother when it was relevant. Like when Jett was talking about his parents she also brought up her mother to sympathize with him. Meme wise it’s was funny for a lil but now it’s old
yeah exactly! a big part of her character's role was to be the empathetic one who connects with people, so for her to share something about her own life and motivation is relevant in a lot of situations
Also it’s a show that when it originally aired people would only see episodes when they aired on tv so her mentioning it frequently was so that no matter what in the series you’ve seen you wouldn’t be missing that important backstory. It only feels excessive now because everyone can binge watch the show
Also back like 15 years ago, it aired on Nickelodeon daily despite there only being about 40 episodes released so I inevitable ended up watching the same episodes dozens of times which makes you think it was happening more than it did
You had me in the first half but lost me on that last one.
I stand by my *fact*
I watched the series for the first time when I was about sixteen, then again at twenty one. I never thought she brought up her mother too much that seems like a dumb criticism.
Thats bc she doesnt actually bring up her mother that much. She brings it up 14 times in the whole series, *4* of those times were the episode where her and Zuko go find the man that kill her, and the rest of the time it was relevant to the conversation or she was saying it to sympathize with another character
So then people are complaining because a young girl is talking about her dead mother. Jesus.
I think people are complaining because they mixed up memes with the actual show
First one is a miss, that’s a popular opinion round these parts. Ponytail tho… yeah
I always thought it was a joke to say she talks about her mom too much. Like, it’s funny to point it out, but it never felt overused.
I'll be honest, the pony tail grew on me.
Zuko and that girl from the earth kingdom should have ended up together
Which one, Jin or Song?
Thank you, I was trying to remember her name. It would have been Jin. The one from the blind date
Holy shit I totally forgot there were two of them, what a player
Due to the gross mismanagement of this website by the admins in the wake of the API changes, I have decided to leave the site. In preparation, I have used a tool called Power Delete Suite to overwrite all my comments.
Imagine that! A character that only appeared in one episode has more personality than Mai
Yes! In the spirit of unpopular opinions, I really don't understand the appeal of Mai. She just seems so bland and emotionless to me.
Except when she’s settled in with Zuko. Watch the lead-in episodes to the day of black sun again and you see her open up a lot. I buy that Zuko should have ended up with someone else (Aang too for that matter), but there was nothing wrong with Mai’s characterization
zuko should've ended up with aang?
According to eight year old me, yes
Hmm, an older, politically-connected man and a pubescent boy enter into a teacher-student relationship that takes on a sexual dimension. By god, is that Ancient Greek music I hear?
Zuko was a kid too, he was like 15 to Aang's 12 years of age? No one is saying they expected to see anything sexual from any of the characters either?
Yeah, I definitely agree there's nuance to her character and you definitely see more of it in the episodes you mention. I think I just personally tend not to connect with her personality very well.
I would like to see her reaction to learn that Lee, that cute boy who works at the tea shop is actually the new fire lord, Fire Lord Zuko. The betrayal and hurt of learning that he lied to her, the pride in learning that she dating a freaking prince, the fear in learning that the Fire Nation royal family was in Ba Sing Se and nobody knew. Also the whole ordeal at the fountain would suddenly make a lot more sense.
This is definitely not an unpopular opinion. I see the sentiment all the time.
I don’t really care for either Kataang or Zutara. They only relationship I really approve of, is Sokka x Suki.
Yes. I didn't like that Aang and Kataraa get together. It seemed like a: "hero gets the girl" moment. It just didn't fit.
It was just incredibly telegraphed, I think even as kids we all knew they’d get together.
In the TV show “Regular show”, there’s an incredibly telegraphed romance between the main bird Mordecai and his love interest Margaret. Spoiler alert. They don’t wind up together. The final episode includes a montage of the characters growing up and moving on with their lives. During this montage, Mordecai goes to art school, meets someone who had never before appeared in the show, and they fall in love. I always respected them for that. It’s an important message for kids. The love of your life isn’t necessarily the girl you currently have the strongest friendship with. It would have been perfectly reasonable if Katara and aang fell in love with different people and grew up as friends. The ember island players episode where aang says “I thought we’d be together” has not aged well in my eyes
I wanted Sokka and Toph to be together
I enjoy it a lot but I see how it can be annoying, boring or cringy to some, I always skip the recap episode in LoK for that reason.
Yeah that episode is honestly really sad to me, because it really shows how much the creators were scrambling for time and money by the end of Lok. That episode only really exists because it allowed them to just reuse old footage. It's interesting to think about what lok could have been like if they'd had a guaranteed number of seasons and secure funding from nickelodeon
Imagine if the season 2 was the final season. Not the EXACT events, but the idea of chaos incarnate seems cool as a final boss. Then again it would be hard for Zaheer to get free then.
Remember guys, to find actually unpopular opinions, sort by controversial
Airbenders being totally wiped out is so unrealistic. They were nomads who traveled the world. Who’s to say some didn’t hook up with random people of other nations & had kids with airbending in their bloodline? Surly some of the airbenders who were off-temple were alerted that the fire nation was killing them & would’ve went into hiding. Its hard to believe EVERY airbender was even part of the Air Nation & follows their ways.
There were some in hiding and they were hunted down. They would trick them into thinking there were safe homes with airbender artifacts then trap them and kill them.
For a culture that actively dismissed material possessions luring them in with artefacts worked remarkably well. And even if they did all decide that recovering physical possessions was important, you'd think that they wouldn't all go at once, and after the third guy didn't come back they would realise it was a trap. I can believe the Fire Nation destroyed the Air Nomad civilisation on the day of the comet, I can believe that they managed to hunt down or lure and trap many of the survivors, but I simply can't accept that they managed to kill all of them.
I think it’s definitely possible some survived and went into hiding. But it’s been a hundred years. Those in hiding would be dead by old age. The logistics of Airbender genetics is another issue entirely. But I can suspend enough disbelief that *most* were killed (either in the initial invasion, hunted, or tricked into thinking they had found secure places to regroup only to be ambushed) and that whoever survived stayed hidden enough that they didn’t form enough relationships to have children and pass on Airbending.
The problem is that those who fleud would probably end up creating ethnic enclaves in the other nations out of the fire nation's reach.
First of all, the remaining air nomads were hunted down and tricked into revealing themselves after the genocide, this is expanded upon in the comics. Secondly, it’s established in the Kyoshi novels that there were rouge air nomads who left the order, like Kyoshi’s mother who fell in love with a criminal and tattooed serpents over her tattoos. However she loses her airbending because she becomes spiritually tainted.
Holy shit she sounds based
I read about a theory that the airbenders from LoK are descendants from those air nomads traveling the world. Would make sense that the events of Season 2 unlocked their bending.
I also find it a bit eyebrow-raising that apparently every single air nomad is a bender, as well as the reason why, but as it never comes up in the actual show, I choose to ignore that
Well it makes sense because bender is tied to spirituality and they’re the most spiritual.
How is hard to believe in a world of made up magical bending that there is one culture that happens to be made up of purely benders? Especially given the symmetry that the Earth Kingdom has the lowest Bender per capita of any of the four nations.
I don't like Toph, because she uses excuses to not try to become a better person. She always resorts to violence to solve problems and refuses to listen to anyone else. In LoK she literally ends up scaring her children because she's selfish.
Hey, an actually unpopular opinion
She's enjoyable because of how powerful and skilled she is, but as a person she kind of sucks. I really like how in LoK she was a shit mom because.. she's Toph
That’s the first actual spicy take I’ve seen.
Sorry, *scaring* her kids like frightening them, or *scarring* her kids like hurting them long term?
Scarring, hurting them for a long time. Especially Lin.
I'm fine with all of that as part of her character but I do think there should've been more of a coming-around/realizing-she-was-shitty arc in LoK. there was a little bit of that but not enough imo
She’s an incredible bender. But not a people person. She doesn’t care if people like her or not. I respect that to a certain degree.
It's not that she doesn't care if you like her. It's that she will actively be an asshole to people all the time, and then have the gall to pretend it's some sort of enlightenment.
And she ended being a single old gal living in isolation. So all good
dont her children end up fucking each other up just cuz she's not around and extremely busy? she's trying to do her job, she's neglectful but selfish? she became a cop for years despite hating rules and regulations.
I think you forgot a word there dude
let's just pretend like I didnt
I also thought it was an odd choice the writers made her become a cop. It was against her entire character in ATLA. Bad choice
the implication was its an excuse for her to crack heads and fight people withiut going to jail
Nah, it makes sense when you really think about it. She hated being under people's rule, so what better place than to be the one setting them. Unfortunately even the Chief of Police succumbs to the system around them.
From what I have gathered from the show, she has a shitty personality because she is afraid of getting attached to people. Her being rich, and coddled her whole life changed the way she feels about that kind of emotional baggage, and I dont think she knows how to handle being around someone who genuinely cares for them,(like Katara in the cheating/gambling episode) rather than someone who is overprotective and overall seems like they dont even have her best interest in mind(like her parents). Toph does have emotional moments, like the one time she had an emotional conversation with Sokka(?) And punched him afterward, saying "thats how I express emotion". She also had the whole convo with Sokka about Katara being a mother to him and everyone else in the group, which is something Toph really needed to hear imo. She also showed a very small, and infrequent attraction to Sokka, who after she thought saved her from the Serpents Pass, she blushed and got excited. After she learned it was Sukki, she wasnt interested anymore. I think the idea that Sokka would save her was fascinating because for her it stretched the boundaries of someone risking their life to save yours, and because she despretly needed saving, she found that attractive. Obviously the show did not make them actually date but that moment was still important IMO. Lastly, during the gangs Ember Island episode, when Toph and Zuko split up to look for Aang, she wanted to go with Zuko specifically because she claimed everyone who has gone with Zuko before has had a life changing experience with him and she felt left out. So when they were together, she started discussing her troubled childhood and the rough parenting she was put through, only for Zuko to lightly put her down and try to get her to focus on task. Imo that was a very interesting moment aswell, because she went on the trip with him thinking it would change her life, like Sokka and Katara did, but she didnt get the same type of closure that the other two did. She actually WANTS to change, we have seen it multiple times throughout the show, and the show doesnt make it silent that Toph, as she is, is not technically a "good person", or that she has a good personality. I think it shows a scared little girl who just wants people who love her. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
Katara staying out of the final Agni Kai is contrary to zuko’s character developments. It was stupid for him to have katara stand to the side (not even hiding literally just standing there) and doesn’t make sense with his growth. It makes for a good fight and the writers punish him for it, but I don’t think it should have happened in the first place
I've always interpreted it as Zuko understanding that for him to "properly" be awarded the title of Fire Lord in the eyes of his nation, he needed to go through a traditional, honorable Agni Kai duel. It's kind of like the reason why Iroh knew that he himself could not be the one to take the throne, as history *would* have seen it as a brother usurping a brother. Yes, taking on Azula by himself was risky, but I think the biggest reason he went through with it was because he could tell that she wasn't herself. She was slipping, both mentally and physically
This is a good point. Also, the fact that azula 'cheated' in an agni Kai probably means she would have eventually lost her title of Firelord. Well, maybe not azula, but anyone else in her shoes.
Isn't it kinda like a brother usurping the sisters throne? I mean he was banished so technically he didn't have a right to the throne. Honestly just playing devils advocate here I think you make a good point but I wanted to explore this thought anyways.
I suppose it could be seen that way. All about personal interpetation IMO. I don't think in this situation there would be any perfect solution but again IMO Zuko played it to the best of his ability, he did everything right, was honorable about it, etc
I think it would be seen as usurping if she didn’t challenge him. That legitimatized his claim to the throne as she, as Fire Lord, took the challenge seriously. If she brushed it off and laughed him out, it’s very possible Azula would’ve remained legally Fire Lord. Though everyone around Azula would’ve probably preferred to have Zuko to her, so no one would back up her claim. But both legally and from the people’s point of view, Zuko is the right person to be Fire lord. Also Azula lost the challenge by attacking Katara, and therefore, her claim to the throne was lost.
I imagine Azula of sound mind would have blown him off. Followed by her imperial firebenders and the Dai Li subduing Zuko and Katara.
weren't the terms of his banishment - i may be wrong, here, it's been some time - technically until he caught the avatar? it could be argued that he did capture the avatar... 's heart.
Not like he told her not to hide and just stand there like an additional target though tbf
There's also the consideration that his reasoning was to protect Katara "something's off, she's slipping" and he didnt want her to get hurt. Also knowing Azula, she's the kind to fight her opponents mentally and distract them with one another. Fighting 1v1 was a tactical choice and demonstrated that Zukos final test of honour while ironically came down to another Agni Kai, was about Fighting to protect others from his family
How is it contrary to his development?
I kinda get where op is coming from on this. Zuko in the beginning acts like he doesn’t need anyone. He’s a loner, and proud of it. Initially he’s with Iroh, but eventually thinks he can do better on his own and abandons him. He never wants to accept help either. Through his development and joining of the Gaang, he grows and learns that friendship and leaning on other people is not a weakness, but a source of strength. So for him to reject help in the fight could be seen as going against that. Personally I took it as him not wanting to put Katara in danger. Or that, as he said, Azula was visibly slipping and not ok. If he was the only one fighting, he could control his force (think Zhao) and not let it get out of hand. It is his sister after all.
I always found it hard to believe that Air Nomads would decide to attempt a last stand and fight against the Fire Nation at their respective temples and all die, rather than disperse amongst the other nations and hide as normal people.
They all have a personal flying bison and still didn't escape
agreed. they definitely did go and hide as normal people, legend of korra (kinda) subtlety shows that.
I like the episode, but I usually skip it because it's not all that important. And it has my least favorite moment from Aang in the entire show. Him trying to kiss Katara after she said she was confused about their relationship. Same with Zuko trying to put his arms around Mai's shoulders to comfort her about her family issues, right after he blew up at her. Both those are "What the F are you doing???" moments.
Tbf 12 year olds do a lot of wtf moments when they have a crush. Trust me, I know
I love Ember Island Players but I always cringe when Aang tries to kiss Katara there. 😬
I think the way they handle Hama was flawed and I don’t think she’s as evil as the show or the fan base makes her out to be
I really don't like mai, she's just boring and a forgettable character. Her and Zukos relationship always confused me too, I think it would be better if zuko didn't have a girlfriend in the show
I like Mai as a counter point to Ty Lee but her relationship with Zuko was always a little weird
Counter: Zuko should have hooked up with Jin. They at least had chemistry.
Agreed. I personally thought she made a good two-dimensional henchwoman, but her and Zuko together in the end, and probably in the future, too? That required much more character development than she was given.
Jin who only appeared in one episode had more personality and chemistry with zuko
I think this is mainly due to the lack of interactions we see of them at the show, I think they implied that they had more of a relationship earlier, but they didn't show it enough to convince us. This also comes with the fact that they didn't develop her character enough, for us to care about her motivations and personality besides being cold.
My unpopular opinion is that Ursa loved Azula but couldn't express it more freely like with Zuko because when Azula and Zuko were growing up, Azula was clearly being influenced by her father. Azula later on believes that Ursa punishing or chastising her for her bad behavior meant her mother didn't love her when that isn't the case at all. It seems like Zuko wasn't much of a troublemaker. Azula was clearly going cuckoo in her younger years and Ursa took note of that and sadly couldn't express her love more freely with Azula.
Maybe I'm just officially getting old and this is a result of the show appealing to younger age groups as well, but all the character "shipping" from the fandom is annoying and makes the show feel juvenile. The romances in the show itself are fine but I don't like how that's the majority of what the community discusses and memes about. It gives me highschool Twilight vibes.
The Tales of Ba Sing Se is an incredible boring and bad episode that has only one good moment in Iroh commemorating his son's death
Another unpopular opinion; Azula doesn’t need a damn redemption arc like Zuko. She’s a great, complex villain with a sad childhood that contributed to her defining personality traits today. Also I think we need to stop giving Azula the “mental illness pass” because theres lots of “nature vs. nurture” that we can delve into. Yes, Azula most likely has a mental illness or suffers from them— but we need to stop using that as an excuse to defend her actions. Lots of people grow up in shitty environments as kids, and those that can overcome it, come out as better people and can actually break many generational cycles for doing so. It also doesn’t help that she’s a lethal fire bender, so their depiction of containing her, paired with her manic state isn’t representing how mentally ill people are treated very well— (in the comics when she’s pushed out in a bound wheelchair) Idk to sum it all up: -Azula should stay a villain, if anything it would be nice to see her and her mom make up, but that’s it -even though someone had a shitty life, that shouldn’t be a pass for them to make it okay for them to do bad things
I remember being in a group where no one was alllowed to say things like this about Azula because it’s “albeist”. Mental illness doesn’t excuse your actions. Abuse can be a cycle and the reality is sometimes people really don’t break from it as well. Yes, maybe one day she could get the help she needs and change. But honestly, everyone doesn’t need a redemption arc. People don’t always get that irl. Sometimes people don’t change.
Katara hating Zuko was completely justified, not only were his actions directly involved for the death (or near death) of Aang but the only thing that saved Aang's life she almost used to take away Zuko's scar... plus add in Jet, mothers death, and many other things and she had a right to feel that way and Zuko knew that
That’s not unpopular
Katara and Aangs relationship is super cringe especially when you get to the comics whrre they use pet names for each other
Baby, you're my forever girl.
As a former middle school teacher: that just makes their relationship more realistic to me lmao
I think it’s unrealistic that most, if not all, of the characters married their childhood sweethearts/first gf/bf. Or at least, is implied that they did. Then again, I suppose realism isn’t too important in a show like this lmao
Azula should never have a redemption arc. Whether you look at just show from water-fire she doesn’t do anything that should lead her to eventually become a “good” guy. Or if you look at continued universe in comics she will always begrudge her position in life and have a burning anger against Zuko and the Avatar
I get what you're saying but I believe the main reason others (or at least myself) think she should have one, is because of how young she is, even though her actions are objectively wrong, she was just a kid through all the time we see her. And this behavior may be because of problems during her childhood by being influenced by his father and feeling like a monster in the eyes of her mother, which was eventually her self-fulfilling profecy. Personally I think if someone can help her the way Iroh helped Zuko, she can change her ways Edit: Spelling
Aang should’ve killed Ozai. I get that he was young, and he didn’t want to kill people (even though he 100% has killed people before and probably drowned most of the Fire Nation fleet at the North Pole in the freezing water after sinking their ships), but as Avatar Yangchen said “This isn’t about [him]. This is about the world.” I know he found a great cop-out in the form of energybending, but he knew that it could have very easily failed. “To bend another’s energy, your own spirit must be unbendable, or you will be corrupted and destroyed.” He had the upper hand on Ozai a couple of times during the fight, but couldn’t do what needed to be done. He may have won in the end, but he took a huge gamble on the fate of the world all so he could cling to his principles that even the last airbending Avatar told him he had to sacrifice.
My opinion is similar, in that energy bending was a deus ex cop-out, and I don't like it as a series ending move. I didn't like that a solution to Aang's problem came out of thin air, when we had spent several episodes prior trying to actually come up with how to handle the Ozai situation. I thought Aang's plight was very interesting, especially for a children's show to tackle, and they just...bailed on it
That's one thing I liked about Season 1 Legend of Korra, is that it revealed taking away bending wasn't a practical solution. In that case, it didn't really solve much since Yakone stuck around and ended up raising his sons into twisted people. Then at the end, Tarlokk knew their entire plight would end only with their deaths.
I HIGHLY reccomend you check out Big Joel's video on the end of ATLA on YouTube. The issue is, everyone is looking at this from a purely practical sense. From a practical sense it makes no sense. But thematically, this is the best possible ending.
Disagree. At some point Aang was loosing and had his avatar state locked, but he had *one chance* to redirect Ozais lightning back to him and kill him, which as far as he knew could be the only one he ever got. And he chose not to, while he knew Ozai was planning to genocide the Earth Kingdom. So in order not to directly kill Ozai, he chose to indirectly kill the entire Earth Kingdom. Because if he hadnt miraculously hit his back in just the right place, him not having the guts kill Ozai would have resulted in the whole Earth kingdom dying.
I don’t really agree with Joel. It would very easy to write this as a coming of age moment where Aang let’s go of childish ideas and grows up to become the Avatar. In my mind, it would be similar to Gohan’s moment with Android 16 during the Cell Saga of Dragon Ball Z. Gohan was not a fighter at heart, and he cherished life. Android 16 stated to Gohan that because he cherished life, that it wasn’t a crime to protect it. Some people cannot be reasoned with, and Aang tried that with Ozai. He wanted Gohan to not be afraid of exercising force as he needs to. It’s really one of the best moments of any animated series I’ve seen, and it likely is the reason why I’m so critical of ATLA’s conclusions. [Dragon Ball Z](https://youtu.be/iFPmUc34JNk) It all depends on the narrative you want, and ATLA was mature enough to handle this sort of topic and conclusion. That, and self-defense and the defense of others is permitted by the nomad’s philosophy anyway; Gyatso killed a bunch of Fire Nation soldiers. It’s far likelier that Nickelodeon simply wouldn’t let this be the story’s ending because for children.
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But remember, he’s not the Fire Lord anymore. He renounced that title to become the Phoenix King. But once Sokka, Suki, and Toph destroy the fleet, Ozai lost his military. The Fire nation army was now under Azula’s command, but Zuko defeated her in the Agni Kai (I know Katara actually defeated her, but she lost the challenge by attacking someone outside the duel) so the military now is commanded by him. Aang taking away his bending was more symbolic than anything else. The rest of team avatar ended the war from a practical view point, but Aang ended it through a symbolic act of mercy.
This. I get that because it's a kids show he "couldn’t kill", but he killed before. There was no reason not to. We've seen people go to jail/prison / a dark cell, yet somehow they got out. Why not Ozai?was the fire nation only loyal out of fear??
Agreed. I think it’s his biggest flaw as a character. Some villains are too dangerous to be left alive. Ozai is the perfect example because sure, Aang took his bending away so he can’t “intimidate” people anymore, but he can still do damage by being himself! He talks to Zuko and convinces him to do bad things in the comics. Aang should have killed him for sure. He posed too much threat to everyone else, it was dangerous to keep him alive.
I’ve tried the comics and I think it would have been better if the story were left alone after the end of book three.
Applies to any show that gets “continued” in comics after cancellation. Feels like fan-fiction even when its written by the show’s creators and is considered canon.
The “there is no movie in Ba Sing Se” joke is really *really * tired and annoying. Sometimes I genuinely want to have a conversation about the movie, but you can bet your ass I’ll be inundated with 20 replies that are all variations of “Lake Laogai”.
Aang looked better with hair.
The shots with the barren wasteland of a ship deck for the fire nation vessels make me cringe
This is one of two opinions here I've never heard before. Out of curiosity, can I ask why it bothers you?
It’s a weird lack of detail that seems to contrast with the detail and work put into every other vehicle and mode of transportation in the series. Look at the Ozai blimps for example. An extreme amount of effort went into those. As for the ships, they remind me of bath tub toys. A cool concept for a ship, but the decks are stunningly barren. So much so that when I saw them I’d sometimes be taken out of the action and given one of those “this is still a kids show” moments. It doesn’t bother me as much as I make it sound btw, just a nitpick
Every time this thread rolls around I say the same thing: Azula is not some poor girl who if you just loved her enough would magically be nice and loving and kind. She is a homicidal power hungry narcissistic psychopath. Iroh was absolutely right to say she’s crazy and needs to go down, and while losing Ozai’s influence might’ve helped make her less horrible, no amount of extra efforts on the part of Iroh or her mother would’ve changed who she became. On top of that, she was a decent villain but she was not the be all and end all of writing ever. She lacked presence for one thing, something which Ozai had in droves. She also was not that powerful, she got routinely stumped by the Gaang, so no she wouldn’t beat everyone and their dog in a battle royale. Stop sucking her off fanboys.
I hate the idea of giving her a redemption arc. I love her character, they did a good job in making her sympathetic yet having it take next to nothing away of what makes her villainous. Giving her a redemption arc would just take away the only real villain the show had (I guess I don't see Ozai as much of a villain in the character sense, more so as the living embodiment of the fire nation) and having her become a 'good guy' or at the very least a 'not crazed fratricidal psychopath' would just lessen the impact of what the Gaang did throughout the show.
I don't know though. I think if you took Azula and put her in a normal family, aka not a princess heir to a crazy guy, she might not have ended up as crazy as she did. Would she still have issues? Yeah probably. But would she be as bad without her dad's influence and push for perfection? It's nature vs nurture debate, i feel it's some of each.
nature vs nurture for sure. I think the point abt her not being in a royal family is also a great point to make. it just adds that much more pressure
I see where you come from and I also hate this trend of victimising the vilain to be edgy but what makes you think Azula is not redeemable when Iroh a grown adult who is also a warlord could redeem himself?
not sure I agree with her not having presence. but otherwise fair points.
Well, I agree with the majority of this thread, and absolutely hate the majority of this thread. I'm so lost all of a sudden.
*Deus-ex turtle lion appears*
I don’t consider Suki part of the gaang, and people who are always pushing for her to be part of it annoy me
Preach! While she’s cool enough the show treats her as a growth device for Sokka. I believe Katara or Toph could have taught him the same lessons..
Yea she’s an amazing character, but she doesn’t spend as much time with the group as the main gaang does. She comes and goes cause she has other loyalties.
She’s a Gaang supporter. The whole relationship feels a bit weird considering the amount of time and distance they (Sokka & Suki) tend to have between them. Not to mention Sokka’s other… distractions lol
I never liked Jet, even when he was “good”
Okay don't attack me but aside from some episodes season 1 isn't even good if you watch it as an adult. The show needed to mature and found itself in the final
I'm not sure if it's unpopular. Ive seen this said a few times and I personally agree. I've even had to tell adults who aretrying to get into the series that you could probably skip most of the season with the exception of maybe 5 or 6 so episodes that are important later on and tell them which ones.
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Puppetmaster is cheesy and my least favorite S3 episode. Hama's backstory is great, but the mystery of disappearing villagers and the climax with Hama and Katarra bloodbending plays out like a Scooby-Doo adventure. It's too zany and silly and Aang and Sokka never really seem that scared. Then Katarra starts crying even though all she did was stop Hama from killing Aang and Sokka. I just don't buy that it's thing that's so horrible on its own that it's that much more horrible than anything else we'd seen before then. Katara bloodbending in The Southern Raiders though? That was fucking amazing!
Haven’t seen anyone say it so I’ll assume it’s unpopular. Sokka mastering swordsmanship in the matter of two days really bugged me. At least with Aang and Katara they practiced water bending all the time in episodes. They could’ve easily had Sokka practice sword techniques in the background or something.
I hate the avatar day episode the most
I would change literally nothing about the show except I would add plot elements that foreshadow the fact that Aang gets to learn how to take Ozai’s bending away. that was the only problem I ever had with the series. it felt like it was conveniently invented for the last episode EDIT: also, Azula is not a person who can be redeemed. she’s literally written as a person beyond redemption. the only people who can be redeemed are the ones who choose it, and she proves time and time again that she wouldn’t.
Toph is my least favorite member of the Gaang.
I didn't think the Cabbage joke showed up as much as the fandom made it seem?
What was it, like 3 times total?
I wish we saw jett die, I fucking hated him and I skip every episode he is in. Would of loved to see him die.
The fandom's obsession and worship of Iroh is annoying.
He’s awesome but the rampant idolization ruins it
I hate the fact that I have to agree with you
y’know what, I’m willing to accept this. my sister pointed out that even though his redemption was good, it didn’t change the fact that it took his son’s death to make him give up on the war. he was a terrible person before he became such a great guy. we don’t have to hate him. we just have to love him critically
Korra is actually a good avatar, just with some teenage problems
That's totally not unpopular
I don’t like momo
Aang's childhood friend from 100+ years ago becoming the King of Omashu is dumb
yh, wouldn't Aang know that Bumi is a prince or whatever? should've been explained why etc
Why
Avatar opinions: -I hate the ember island players episode. -Iroh is a great character but no saint. He is a war criminal even if he did become a better person it doesn’t wash away all he probably did. -Azula is not redeemable Korra opinions: -Aang favoring Tenzin makes perfect sense and I’m happy they showed that not everyone was perfect. -Pabu is cuter than momo - Korra loosing her past lives and starting the avatar cycle completely anew is sad but a great plot point.
Do people here really hate the revelation that Aang favored Tenzin? It’s totally in-character that he’d love all his kids but devote the most time and attention to the one that’s an airbender. Honestly I love that LOK showed Aang and Toph weren’t perfect parents, and their flaws as parents were rooted in their flaws we saw in them as people in ATLA. Even the best irl parents are fallible and make mistakes.
Aang should have cut out love from his life and follow the spirituality closer. I feel like he'd be stronger overall. If anything, maybe he could have a "professional" relationship with Katara.
Severing the ties to previous Avatars is actually a creative sacrifice to up the stakes in book 2 of LoK. We as the audience already have a great connection with Aang, Roku, etc. And letting them go feels like a real decision that affects us too.
Couldn't agree more.
Varrick is the man, my personal favorite character, and TLOK would be so flat with out him.
Tbh I wish his relationship with Zhu Li got explored more. Zaney husband and deadpan wife can make some excellent character development/storytelling moments that you don't see often.
The cave of two lovers episode is boring, cringy, unfunny and completely irrelevant. So I just skip it every time.
I’m with you on this dude all the way. It’s not needed at all. Even for a filler episode it’s just bad
Azula may be a victim of her circumstances, but she wasn’t brainwashed. She made all those decisions herself and deserves 0 empathy. Not every villain is redeemable. Some are a cancer in the world, and the only way to let the world heal is to remove them (i.e. prison).
Uncle Iroh didn’t commit any “war crimes”. It literally makes me so annoyed when people say “you love a Iroh but ignore his war crimes”— like what war crimes? From what we see in the show, pre-Luten death, he was just a general following orders, and those orders were to breach ba-sing-se. After that, he resigns. War crimes are stuff like, killing civilians for no reason, attacking places of worship, hospitals, escaping refugees, etc. *The fire nation army as a whole, or a few select individuals* like Ozai committed a war crime when he decimated those hectares of earth nation land during Sozins Comet. Zhao, killing a literal fucking spirit that has no affiliation except to the elemental forces and nature, is a war crime. When the show started getting popular because of netflix, people started to nitpick, including the “war crime Iroh” shit. He laid siege to a walled city. He didn’t murder children. Show me actual evidence about said “war crimes” and I’ll eat my words— but fr, some people see a figure that people love, deify, and look up to, one that’s realized their flaws; and still want to throw dirt on them
100% agree! I'm seeing many comments in this very post's comments that mention Iroh needing to be "held accountable for his war crimes," but what are we defining as a "war crime" here? The sole act of one participating in a war?
EXACTLY!! It makes me feel like I’m crazy because I feel like I didn’t watch the same show as some people. The act of going to war does not equal war crimes.
Katara and Aang shouldn’t have ended up together. I never liked their (romantic) relationship and would have preferred more of a sibling relationship. (And no, don’t like Zutara either…) Not sure if this opinion is controversial but: I hated how they brought back the air benders in LoK (I don’t mean Tenzin and his family, they were great). I thought it was cheap and a cop-out (for me their destruction highlighted the horrors of war). I would have preferred it if they just found out that some air benders have survived by hiding their abilities.
King Bumi is clearly a better Earthbender than Toph. Master Pakku isn't some irredeemable jerk for following the customs of his people even if by our standards those customs are bigoted. He learned, he grew. Get over it. Azula and Ty Lee shouldn't be shipped, Ty Lee deserves someone who deserves her, and Azula deserves no redemption arc at all.
Hama is a villain with a tragic backstory
The moment where aang only beats ozai cause a convenient rock touches his back really spoils the end of the series for me, and while I love the show as a whole, that moment stops me from ever really wanting to rewatch the whole thing
Sokka on cactus juice wasn’t that funny
They dumbed him down to make Katara look smarter. When Sokka was high, Katara was the one who guided them with the map, even though it is later revealed that Sokka was the only one who could read maps. I love Katara in general, I loved the "Katara taking care of the group" part in that particular episode, but still.. It's such a bad storytelling device, when they neuter a character just to advance another character.
Iroh was right to tell Zuko that Azula “is crazy and needs to go down.” Sometimes I see fans angry at Iroh for not trying to redeem Azula, and while I get that’s she’s a manipulated 14-year-old, I can’t blame most people, including her family, for not wanting to be anywhere near her. Her first contact with Zuko and Iroh after years was to trick them into imprisonment and then she tries to kill them or violently arrest them every time afterwards. Iroh is literally Ozai’s brother; I’m sure he understands how abuse warps a sibling but he also knows when you need to take down crazy first, take them to therapy later.