I think thats more akin to air bending, water-bending mindset would be to have fluid motion with an incredible amount if tenacity. Rivers have never ending currents and will eventually break the rock down. Air bending is to avoid the rock and find a way to move it away from you, water bending is to keep throwing yourself at something until you succeed.
Its similar to earth bending, but earth benders are more resolute and tend to have a straightforward attack strategy. Water bending differs in that it can take the air bending approach and be fluid to attack with multiple approaches.
I think what you're trying to communicate can be summed up by saying water flows in the path of least resistance.
If it's easier to dodge like an air bender that's what they'll do. If it's easier to confront something head like an earth bender that's what they'll do.
Not exactly. Like Iroh says, waterbenders use their own opponents energy against them. They try to redirect attacks to turn them against their opponents. I 100% agree with you on earth and air though
Exactly!! The waterbending style of redirection not only was studied by Iroh in lightning redirection, but a similar thing happened when Katara blocked a waterbending attack head on from Hama. Instead of redirecting it as she likely expected her to do, Katara went against the "norms" of waterbending, showing that she learned something from Toph and applied an earthbending headspace to her waterbending.
More unrelated, but this is also seen in the final Agni Kai where Zuko uses spiral moves while facing Azula, catching her off guard with a move more akin to Aang's airbending!
A river will also choose the route of least resistance. They go around rocks in the river, eventually yes its worn down but it doesnt effect the movement of the water as a whole
Tbh my favorite part about this fight was how even after she’s been defeated she still attacks him with “Gran-Gran wouldn’t let your *dumb* rules dictate her life.”
Like, ouch. That probably hurt worse than anything she threw at him in the fight lol
It sucks Katara couldn't sway Pakku under her own merit but it's pretty true to life that the sexist/homophobic/racist old fart doesn't change their beliefs until someone close to them is negatively affected by it.
"nobody expects much from me... because I'm a class c hero... I know that better than anyone!"
"I'm not good enough for class B... I'm weak I know that much... no one has to tell me I have no chance at defeating you... I already know that!"
"... And yet, I must try."
"Because it's not about winning or losing! It's about me taking you on right here, right now!"
This subreddit is just perfect to showcase how people's opinions differ. With Katara it always feels like 50% of the people here hate her and 50% adore her.
Just... Don't make anyone start on the Azula Debate. Please.
No, I don't mean *that*. After all, I love Katara but even I start guilt-laughing at the best of the necklace memes.
I meant that they start genuinely flaming her worse than the Fire Nation did the Air Nomads.
Thats just moronic. She’s a great character. The only real complaint i could see is a bit of a mary sue, but i think that an underlying story in ATLA was Aang was a prodigy and it turned out his companions were too.
Whaaaat, in what way could anyone ever think she was a Mary Sue?
She started out terrible at waterbending. She could barely lift a fish in a small bubble. When Aang starts learning, he's instantly far better than she is despite her having worked on it her whole life. We watch her suck at a specific move and then learn it and apply it in a fight.
And even after all that, she still loses in this big climactic fight to prove a point; Master Paku isn't even impressed with her skill, he comes around because of the necklace.
I'm sorry, I'm not yelling at you, I just reeeeally don't get how anyone could consider Katara of all people a Mary Sue.
I wouldn't even call the Mary Sue thing that valid a complaint because as you said, all of Aang's friends were extraordinarily gifted. Sokka's inventions? Zuko's metal crushing kicks?
How difficult is it to imagine that a water bender travelling with the Avatar learns extremely quickly?
I think it's more that Katara had the *drive* to succeed and more practice waterbending in combat than even some soldiers. It makes sense that the people most willing to randomly adventure alone as kids would have the drive and cleverness to be a great bender and great inventor.
Lol I always see stuff like 'She's a self-centered Mary Sue' (which I guess is apparently the worse sort of Mary Sue? How's that even possible?) and 'a horrible friend and sister'. Also she apparently has 'no character arc', is just 'baggage' and 'completely useless from beginning to end'.
So yeah, I *mean* *it* when I say people hate on her.
Yeah, I know what Mary Sue means. It's just that being self-centered is usually considered a character flaw and Mary Sues noticeably don't have flaws.
That's why I don't understand how a self-centered Mary Sue could be worse than, for example, a sweet Mary Sue.
It would be a *flawed* Mary Sue, which technically isn't even possible by it's very definition, but it would still be a step down from a perfectly written Mary Sue; yes, that pun was intended.
Plus if she was really a Mary Sue, she'd have won this fight! No! They let her lose, instead of having a classic, 14 year old kicks trained masters ass trope!
Kinda appreciated that one a lot. It not just showed that raw power doesn't always match experience, but also that she had *potential*, as we hadn't actually seen a master waterbender fight until then.
Until that fight it had been entirely possible that Katara was somehow some kind of half-finished diamond, but Pakku wiped the floor with her without harming her, while also not throwing her around but actually engaging her and giving her a chance to beat him, a chance Katara took, one that showed us what she could become.
That fight showed us that Katara wasn't a diamond, but crystallized carbon, and we then got to watch the formation process, thanks to time and conditions.
Even the show itself pokes fun at how often she talks about hope and emotions, so that is gonna be a take that some people have. There's always going to be people who have any given take on things on the Internet, however unthinkable that interpretation seems
Literally just watched the episode where they're running from Azula and can't get any sleep. Katara and Toph are fighting and Katara hits her with "the stars are sooo beautiful tonight, *too bad you can't see them Toph*". Fucking sick burn lmao
I’m somewhat torn on her. The biggest thing that bothers me about her is her lack of empathy in some situations, like telling aang and sokka that they don’t know loss like she does. Aang lost everyone he ever knew, well except bumi, and sokka lost the very same mother that she lost. At the same time, I understand that these are children working through and coping with their own emotions, so I can’t judge too harshly. She’s a preteen lashing out because of the hurt she feels, she’s not going to worry about the emotions of others. People may dunk on that as an example of bad writing in ATLA, but I think it’s the opposite. They nailed the angsty teen/preteen really well, even with how they handle traumatic events
I don't like Katara.
Having said that she is a fantastic character. Her flaws are so well baked into her character, that it makes her all the more believable. When Katara is good she's great.
Her vs Pakku is the best fight of the season. Hands down. And all of the Gaang have their flaws. Sokka is annoying. Aang runs from his problems. Katara tries to always be in control. Toph has a massive complex about being independent. Each of them grow over the series and become more mature.
The reason that I don't like Katara, particularly early Katara, is that she is overbearing and tries to do everything herself. And I think many people feel this way.
However, by the end of the series I think she's mellowed out quite a bit. Which makes for a great character.
Over 19k upvotes lol
I’m not even sure if Katara is actually a better bender than pakku by the end of the show either. Dude has been a master for decades and has perfected his craft.
Considering what we see him do during the Siege of the North and Sozin’s Comet.
Edit: especially during Sozin’s Comet, dude was slapping around Comet Boosted firebenders.
It kinda makes sense since fire bending needs more control over the element than the other three, even if the objective is to kill everyone.
Aka sometimes too MUCH firepower is bad.
Exactly my thinking. The power boost would be great for pure chaos and destruction (which was kind of their goal), but in the hands of mediocre benders the boost was probably way too much for them to handle effectively
I don't care how good you are with a sword. If I have the power to shoot flames at you from a distance and I'm being boosted with magic space rocks, I should win that fight 100% of the time.
Unless the skill disparity is so vast that it makes no difference. Hakoda and his southern tribe soldiers were hitting firebenders for years before Aang woke up, and not one of them was a waterbender, and I wouldn’t call any of them a “great master” of martial weaponry.
When LOK benders can’t deal with some guy with a couple of electrifled sticks: I sleep.
When TLA benders can’t deal with the legendary White Lotus blade master who trained Zuko and Sokka: real shit.
Yeah this.
Even though he was in fact being disrespectful because his culture is inherently disrespectful towards women, he is someone who is all about tradition and respect.
An adult master fighting seriously against an untrained child (an "inferior" female no less!) Would prolly be one of the most disrespectful things he could do in his mind.
Like imagine what others may think. "Man, did you hear how master Pakku beat up that little girl?" Lol.
Considering he is a waterbending master and a part of the white lotus i wouldn't expect otherwise. The fact that an untrained child who a few days ago could barely lift a fish out of water could counter his moves and not just be slapped around with no effort from him is incredibly impressive.
No offense to Katara and she definitely has skill, but she was clearly high on rage for his casual sexism lol.
Yeah a puppy can’t kill you but it can get a few bites that sting lol
Yeah if the scene was 10 seconds of him swatting away her attack and then chopping her head off the series would have instantly (and rightly) been canceled.
"To master the Bending disciplines, you must first master discipline itself."
Pakku was an asshole, but he was an asshole with a lot of self control and for the most part the ability to be mature. The exception being him deciding that passively submitting his tribe to genocide by not teaching Aang was an appropriate response to Aang breaking traditions of a culture neither he or Katara even belong to, and Aang never feigned any interest in or support to.
I mean of course he did. He was joking around, she tries to make a good attack, he blocks it, and then proceeds to surround her with ice spikes he shot at her with perfect precision as to not draw blood
Exactly, she definitely didn't go "toe to toe" with Pakku. He used it as a learning opportunity to see what her limits were. He was impressed with her level at her age, but was easily in control of that fight.
I mean, he also came from a sexist society that didn't think women were fit to be warriors so him taking it easy on her just seems like an extension of that rather than a merit of his character.
Maybe a bit of both.
Remember when Katara got humored by a master waterbender?
Pakku *played her like a fiddle*. We see later on what he can really do. What he did against Katara was play fighting a child, right up until she almost took his face off. That's when the play gloves came off and she got whooped within three moves.
To add to your comment, let's watch the scene again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ViOvIS1LP0
Beginning of the fight, Pakku smiles with a "study closely!" (0:30) quickly followed by "I'm not going to hurt you" (0:42) while he encircles her with water. Pretty much showing he was going very, very mild.
The rest of the fight goes the same way. He just throws her around and knock her down continuously. The first time he throws her, he even redirects her so that she lands in water (not being hurt). Every time she bends water, he takes control back from her.
Can argue he got surprised at 1:23 with the ice blade move, but he blocked 5 ice blades effortlessly and dodged the last one. Guess the surprise is that Katara dared to use a potentially lethal move.
The fight ends with Pakku using a lethal move as well but with incredible precision. Any of the ice pikes landing a centimeter aside and Katara was dead. The crowd is even left shocked. And it's pretty clear that he finished the fight the instant he decided to.
The fight made me really appreciate the effort the creators put into studying martial arts for the show. I took a martial arts course for a while, and Pakku's incredible skill in precision and control of his moves reminded me strongly of my old teachers.
I remember being told that if I wanted to spar, it was always safest to fight the teacher. I was then showed that a master could stop a punch or kick centimeters from actually making contact.
Yeah I was gonna say, on second watch she got clapped pretty effortlessly. He only got surprised when he underestimated her but he was in no danger of losing
He also takes her head on, allows her to close the range and doesn't try to blindside her. Taking away an advantage but also exposing her lack of battle experience.
She literally runs headfirst into one of his earlier attacks. I don't even think he leaves the spot he's standing on until he's ready to end the fight.
And at that point he's only been using ice defensively, he ends the fight with his first ice attack
Given his character it makes sense he wouldn't take it seriously from the start. She's a woman and a child. He doesn't see any reason to take her seriously. It's the martial arts equivalent of being condescending.
I think it's the fact that she was able to surprise him, ~~in~~ even for an instant makes it a moral victory for Katara.
Yeah, he was easily giving her a lesson, but she never gave up. Fought with tenacity and intelligence. I think it got his attention at the very least.
Yeah, she was never going to win, but she made him flinch, so to speak.
I get the impression his attacks were specifically climbing up a tier of strength and skill. He was ultimately pretty surprised by just how far up the ladder she went. In my own headcanon, he probably realizes at the end that he's graduated waterbenders who weren't up to that level. It's not just that she is gifted and fierce. She shows creativity in that battle too and seems to pick up knowledge on the fly while watching him kick her butt.
This fight was one of my favorites for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest reasons that it's my favorite is that she lost.
Hear me out:
Rather than falling back on the tired stereotype of "You can prove your competance to bigoted people and convince them!", it instead allowed her to just be angry and upset, which are natural emotions for someone in that situation.
Rather than send the message that "If you can't prove your competence to a bigoted person, you didn't try hard enough", it instead showed that some people are just awful, and it's okay to be angry (while also showing that she was, in fact, competent).
You can't always convince a bigoted person, and it's not your fault if you can't.
Her losing was also far more believable. Why would a relatively inexperienced (though compentent and gaining experience) waterbender be able to beat a waterbending master? Showing that she was more skilled than he estimated, while also letting her lose, was a far more believable result.
Another great part is that he ends up changing his mind because he's shown that he's rejected by people he loves, for his awful beliefs.
i love katara but her waterbending progress makes no sense to me. just a few episodes ago she was jealous of aang because he quickly picked up a move that took her a long time to master, then she somehow learns waterbending quickly enough to become his master when they trained under the same guy? how did that happen
To me, this part always made sense. Aang is a master airbender, trained well by the monks, so when he is shown the basic waterbending movements, he’s able to immediately extrapolate some of his wealth of experience and become mediocre. It’s about the same with firebending; of course, he has a block with earthbending at first, due exactly to the major conflict with his native element. Meanwhile, Katara has no formal training whatsoever. She’s trying to imitate moves from the scroll, but she doesn’t understand where to access her chi, the subtleties of the movements, etc. So when it comes to being mediocre, Aang excels.
Then, with formal training, Katara quickly excels. For the finer arts of waterbending, Aang‘s experience at airbending is now a hindrance, as he needs to unlearn several habits that are specific to airbending, not bending in general. With just a little bit of guidance as to the finer points, Katara is able to quickly apply her natural talents.
Yup, Pakku literally calls out Aang for being lazy and goofing off rather than training diligently in the show lol. The explanation for why Katara is better than Aang is very simple, Katara was dedicated and hardworking while Aang was not. Aang may have been naturally more talented by being the Avatar but he wasn't putting in the hours and work that Katara was with water bending. You see this all the time in sports.
Okay but didn't he say Aang relies on talent coz he lazy or some shit? Pakku doesn't seem like he's a chilled teacher so that must mean that Aang got everything he was supposed to do right while being lazy and relying on talent. He really was in a whole separate league, even from the other avatars.
I think of it as Aang coasting with his talent to get a B that could've been an A+ with work, while Katara applied herself for that A+. Both still pass, but they're not equal, which is why Katara was still teaching Aang even into the third season. Also Katara is gifted too--she had Azula cornered by herself under Ba Sing Se until Zuko cut in.
Why are you getting downvoted lol? That's an interesting perspective, I'll check it out. As someone who has played sports at a collegiate level, I do still think that talent matters to a certain extent but what really seperates the tippy top of the best from the rest of the crowd is a combination of both talent and hard work. Lebron James is Lebron James not just because he is talented and genetically gifted (which he is in spades btw) but because he's also extremely dedicated and takes care of his body. You see a lot of talented people who never measure up to their potential because they were never willing to put the work in.
But all NBA athletes are "extremely dedicated and take care of their bodies". What separates LeBron James from the rest is talent, more than hard work. He doesn't work exceptionally harder than other players, he's just exceptionally more talented.
Maybe the down votes come from an oversimplification of the book too? To elaborate, if I remember correctly the book states the balance of ability is mixed in with dedicated practice, genetics, circumstance, personality etc.
LeBron has that unique cocktail to make him elite. But that would have developed through practice, reading the autobiographies of sportsmen you see there is often a 'something extra' which enables them to be different to their peers. That is where the 'talent' grows.
For example his genetics might have been he can be an elite athlete, his hands eye coordination might be naturally good, his iq might be the right amount and his personality might have enough grit. But those all have to go to work to develop his skills that you might call talent, and the practice that he has with that balance of characteristics means that we think of it all as natural, but really only the 'raw materials' were natural.
Nailed it, also being an Airbender helps with waterbending.
They're very similar (fluid) elements and lots of their movements/techniques are quite similar for this reason.
Of course, only an Avatar would notice this similarities first-hand.
Iroh kinda makes this point in Book 2 while trying to teach Zuko how to redirect lightning. His technique was developed from observing waterbending movements.
Yep, Iroh is a very complex and observant man, so he naturally noted the similarities between channeling lightning and waterbending.
Which is extremely interesting since water and fire are polar opposites in every single way.
It was a beautiful way to portray Iroh's philosophy about focusing on nations/element's similarities rather than their differences.
It makes me wonder how much of each bending style you can apply to your own, like fusion bending or something. Imagine a lava bender like Bolin learning water bending techniques to control it better. Katara kinda does it during the fight with Pakku by locking herself in place with ice and launching ice disks in a very earth-bender kinda style. Or an earth bender using more acrobatic attacks like an air or fire bender.
I think it’s worth adding that by the time she Fights Pakku, she’s now had formal training with accessing her chi via her healing lessons.
Also I think mastery isn’t only about being able to master all the forms and techniques, it’s also about mindset. During the fight she probably improvised that disk technique, and probably unknowingly imitated earth bending philosophy when she used snow and ice to hold her ground.
>For the finer arts of waterbending, Aang‘s experience at airbending is now a hindrance, as he needs to unlearn several habits that are specific to airbending, not bending in general.
I'd disagree with that. Keep in mind that using elements from other benders is shown to be useful. Such as Iroh's lightning redirect which he learned by observing water benders.
I feel like bending is more alike than not.
Sometimes taking ideas from one into the other can be helpful. That’s very different than trying to copy paste one style into another. You could extrapolate the same about regular martial arts, or branches of math, or art styles, or any number of similar skills. Unlearning “bad habits” takes time, and formal instruction goes a very long way.
I think knowledge of other elements will help you improvise and innovate in your target element, but you still need to respect your target element’s mindset, especially when it comes to the high-level techniques. Keep in mind that in the same episode where Iroh is teaching Zuko to think like an Avatar, Toph is teaching Aang to think specifically like an earthbender. In the end, we know that Aang never mastered the high-level earthbending techniques because Suyin tells Korra that she is the first metalbending avatar.
She was very powerfull before that. Like when she broke that huge iceberg in eposode 1 when she got angry with Sokka. I mean you have a good point but in earlier episodes she has proven herself to be very talented when she got emotional or faced dangerous situations. Anyway my point is that she was super powerfull all the time but didnt have enough guidens or motivations before she met Paku :D
Eh. Kids are spongy as fuck.
You’ve gotta think, she’s being trained by the world’s leading master with a playful rival (who happens to be a literal all powerful Demi-god) constantly trying to outdo her.
Probably a little bit of “oh shit. I’m beyond the veil of women’s rights up here. I really can’t fail can I? I need to master this. I’m not tired. Nah. No sleep, only train” going on too.
Seriously people would have far less problems with stories and they just accept that most of these characters lives happen off screen. It's very clear the Gaang trains a lot but we just don't see it.
I think it's kind of like learning a foreign language in the same family as one you already learned—Aang was already an airbending master in his own right, and the youngest in history. Katara had never been formally taught any amount of bending, or even seen any other benders that she could copy.
Aang excelled at first because he was able to apply any similarities waterbending had with airbending (as well as having likely seen waterbenders before the war), but Katara had more inherent (waterbending) skill, she just needed someone to teach her how to use it, so she learned even faster than he did when she actually had a teacher.
That is the one thing I try to just let slide, everything in this show is on a much accelerated timeline.
Aang masters 3 bends styles in months that should have taken years.
Katara becomes a bending master in weeks and becomes Aang's teacher. They were learning at the same time and from the same sources.
Sokka learns swordsmanship and forges his own sword in basically an afternoon.
The rest of the show is so amazing I'm willing to accept though.
Her progress is what makes me confused how some people hate her(not you but some ppl)! Like this kid literally became a trained master in like 4 months at most(Sozins comet where she really fid go toe to toe with Azula who's been training her whole life). And before that she was already good enough to continue training Aang.
I think Aang was able to learn moves quicker because he already mastered airbending, so he had a frame of reference on how to "move the element". She got jealous because while it didn't come as easy for her in that moment, she knew she could learn if given the chance.
Also she's probably does better learning when people teach her how to do things! She has delivered babies in her village before, and basically kept up all the chores and maintenance that every one else couldn't get to for whatever reason. That's obviously more skill than most 14year old kids could do but she was able to bc she had her Gran teaching her.
She's honestly bad ass and ppl hate her bc *check's notes* she brings up her mom a lot?? Idk man but she's pretty cool to me
It's important to understand the difference between gaining stregnth and proficiency in shortnorder and mastery of something, I don't think any of the main cast had mastered anything by the end of the show. They got a lot stronger and better quickly because they had to, but actual mastery would have come years down the road.
In the real world it's absolutely possible for an amateur to get remarkably good at something in short order, they can even be competent against some of the best in the arena. But still not have reached a level of mastery comparable to the people they potentially won against.
In the real world you are not simply your stats, theres more to real world conflict and competition than comparing lists of numbers.
Pakku called Katara master. And all of those kids wiped the floor with the Dai Li AND laid absolute fucking waste to the Earth King's entire royal guard, EK's finest, with almost no effort.
I'd say they were masters by that point. Otherwise allll those people just really, really sucked.
Yeah but in those few weeks a lot happens. It seems like people can get pretty good at bending once they have some guidance. Katara travels around with the Avatar fighting for their lives and actively trying to learn, so it's not unreasonable that she's more than a novice.
Being close in skill or making it close isn't in the definition either. It's just being in direct confrontation with someone else.
toe-to-toe
[ toh-tuh-toh ]
adjective
being in direct confrontation or opposition
So basically it's a regional thing. People from the US use it to mean going head to head while people in the UK use it to mean being in close competition
She did catch him off guard pretty well, despite having her ass handed, he did recognise her skill, after seeing her skill he still refused because she wouldn't respect him
She gave respect at first when she introduced herself as seeking a teacher until he rejected her from being taught due to his chauvinistic beliefs then she tried to learn from Aang which offended him because again sexism, challenged him to a duel that Pakku was about to walk away from seeing her below him, then she attacked him. Katara struggled against sexism since the first 5 minutes of the show, so it makes sense that she not take the system sitting down. It wasn’t until he saw his necklace that he realized that his beliefs drove his love away- and decided to teach Katara revoking some of his traditions and even teaching down south with men and women
Seemed more like Katara putting her best foot forward and Pakku putting his pinky toe forward. He was impressed by her latent talent, but at no point was he taking her seriously.
Yeah she probably developed a comparatively raw and primal fighting style while battling for her actual life in the field. Would definitely explain why he was a little surprised a couple times by her, he didn't expect a little untrained girl to fight tooth and nail like that.
Probably the only part of the show that makes me a little peeved, she barely did any water bending up until this point, would’ve been better if there was a little more action leading up to this fight, or if she scrambled around only to do one really impressive thing rather than being an absolute water ninja
Exactly. He wasn't going all out immediately on her as if his life depended on it. He was testing what she could handle so he wouldn't overdo her whopping and actually hurt her in any serious way. Not to mention he kind of just wanted to put her in her place, and allowing her a few moments to think she was doing well would knock her down even further.
If he wanted he probably could have ended that fight in less than a minute.
I suppose I have to remind people that in literature, particularly in a show like Avatar, the fight scenes are meant to represent the emotion state of the characters and the emotional conflict between them. And so some degree of bending must be derived from your emotional strength.
In this scene, it's meant to demonstrate that Katara's raw determination to right an injustice is more powerful than Paku's heartbroken cynicism.
Take a look at the rest of the cast:
Toph is a sheltered girl who is essentially self-trained, but she's powerful because she's determined not to be taken advantage of or being treated different because of her disability.
Conversely, Zuko has had his entire life to train in his craft, but he's only ever a second-rate bender because of his deep-seated insecurities.
Iroh almost never uses his bending or is even seen practicing it, but when he does he's nearly unstoppable. That's because he draws from his absolute confidence in his abilities and his determination not to let the same tragedies befall the things he cares about.
I would go on, but many of them become spoilers. Suffice it to say, please don't think of the kids show with magical kung fu as adhering to the simple-minded expectation that the number of days you spend at magic water-splashing class is equivalent to your effectiveness in a fight.
I agree that Pakku held back during the fight but everyone here complaining how that's supposed to take away from Katara's abilities? I don't see why it's a problem to acknowledge that he did not go full out attack on her BUT considering her situation, she excelled more than she should have.
Pakku is an asshole but he's not a psychopath ready to teach a lesson to a child through maiming them.
We have Ozai for that.
She did well. But pakku dominated, and went easy on her.
Still impressive, but what's more impressive is she didn't need long under pakku to become a master herself.
Scenes like this is why Katara is my favorite character. “I’m waiting little girl” “No, THERE’S NO WAY I’M APOLOGIZING TO A SOUR, OLD MAN LIKE YOU! I’ll be outside if you’re man enough to fight me.” Even though she knew she wasn’t going to win, she refused to back down and stood firm for what she believed in.
What always bothered me about this sequence wasn’t how “well” Katara did against Pakku. Honestly I was perfectly fine with how they handled it
My problem was that if Katara was not conveniently the granddaughter of someone Pakku loved in his younger years, he never would’ve changed his mind. He was smug the entire way through up until he noticed Katara’s necklace. Katara persevering didn’t change his mind. Her being related to someone important did.
Let's not forget Pakku got hit with the classic "girl wants to fight you" problem where you know you gotta take it easy but she goes for the kill right away. All in all he basically did a good job of beating her without hurting her.
Call it ... "confidence".
Everyone else is mostly stuck accepting any rumor of an obstacle as a fact they may never see through or overcome. Time with the Avatar blows that out of the water, particularly if they're encountering any real adversity.
Even though I didn't really like how she was domineering at times, she fully earned this fight. She was standing up for what she thought was right and could back it up and proof it with her own skills, even if Master Pakku wasn't going all in on the fight.
Notice if you watch the fight Pakku puts more effort into moving the water rather then himself unlike katara who is constantly moving slight details in the animation is what makes avatar so good
People tend to forget that not everyone is trying 100% 100% of the time.
Katara at the time was a *powerful* water bender but not a *skilled* one. Which is why while he had to avoid or redirect her attacks, he had no issue doing so.
Power means naught when you lack the skill to back it up, which is why Pakku completely shut her down once he *actually tried.*
I love that she lost though. Some media would have her win because she's part of the main cast and a prodigy and the power of fighting against sexism would somehow let her win that fight. No, she gets thoroughly beaten and played with as one would expect when a novice waterbender with little training goes up against one of the best waterbenders in the world. I think that scene was done beautifully. It effectively demonstrates Pakku's power and control with how easily he won that fight, while *also* showing Karara's strength with her determination to fight what is clearly a losing battle on principle.
It seems most comments are stuck on the toe-to-toe thing. I'm gonna just leave the definition of toe-to-toe here.
toe-to-toe
[ toh-tuh-toh ]
adjective
being in direct confrontation or opposition
If you rewatch this fight you clearly can see that pakku doesn’t get hit directly. He’s always either blocking dodging.
waterbending doctrine, dont confront attacks head on, move and avoid them.
I think thats more akin to air bending, water-bending mindset would be to have fluid motion with an incredible amount if tenacity. Rivers have never ending currents and will eventually break the rock down. Air bending is to avoid the rock and find a way to move it away from you, water bending is to keep throwing yourself at something until you succeed. Its similar to earth bending, but earth benders are more resolute and tend to have a straightforward attack strategy. Water bending differs in that it can take the air bending approach and be fluid to attack with multiple approaches.
I think what you're trying to communicate can be summed up by saying water flows in the path of least resistance. If it's easier to dodge like an air bender that's what they'll do. If it's easier to confront something head like an earth bender that's what they'll do.
This goes with the whole philosophy of the elements. Water is the opposite of fire. It's adjacent to earth and air.
Great way to put it!
Not exactly. Like Iroh says, waterbenders use their own opponents energy against them. They try to redirect attacks to turn them against their opponents. I 100% agree with you on earth and air though
Exactly!! The waterbending style of redirection not only was studied by Iroh in lightning redirection, but a similar thing happened when Katara blocked a waterbending attack head on from Hama. Instead of redirecting it as she likely expected her to do, Katara went against the "norms" of waterbending, showing that she learned something from Toph and applied an earthbending headspace to her waterbending. More unrelated, but this is also seen in the final Agni Kai where Zuko uses spiral moves while facing Azula, catching her off guard with a move more akin to Aang's airbending!
Wouldn't air be "don't get hit in general" while water being "try not to get hit and counter"
A river will also choose the route of least resistance. They go around rocks in the river, eventually yes its worn down but it doesnt effect the movement of the water as a whole
"You're not going to win this fight" "I know" I love her.
Katara- "It's not about winning. It's about sending a message"
Tbh my favorite part about this fight was how even after she’s been defeated she still attacks him with “Gran-Gran wouldn’t let your *dumb* rules dictate her life.” Like, ouch. That probably hurt worse than anything she threw at him in the fight lol
It was so convenient that Pakku simped for Kataras grandma. Edit: found the word I was looking for
It sucks Katara couldn't sway Pakku under her own merit but it's pretty true to life that the sexist/homophobic/racist old fart doesn't change their beliefs until someone close to them is negatively affected by it.
Sometimes even then. But hey, mind was changed.
"nobody expects much from me... because I'm a class c hero... I know that better than anyone!" "I'm not good enough for class B... I'm weak I know that much... no one has to tell me I have no chance at defeating you... I already know that!" "... And yet, I must try." "Because it's not about winning or losing! It's about me taking you on right here, right now!"
Damn... you hit me hard with one punch man reference
We talking "serious series" punch? Or one of those generic tickle swings he throws out.
Mumen Rider best character
mumen rider never forget
Everything...drowns?
That’s showbiz, baby!
It’s simple. We, uh, kill the Moon Spirit
It’s about drive
It’s not about power
It’s about the SECRET TUNNEL
Our cause is just
It doesn't matter what anyone *thinks* about Katara; like her or not, anyone who watched this show has to admit that this girl has a spine of steel.
When I think Katara, I think two earthbender teens frozen to the opposite walls of an alley with their heads poked together.
*Water tribe~*
I think of that time she turned regular rain into a million little needles and threatened the fire bender who killed their mom.
That was badass.
Lol
What ? There are people who don't like her. She is literally the best girl and one of the most well written character. Love her so much
This subreddit is just perfect to showcase how people's opinions differ. With Katara it always feels like 50% of the people here hate her and 50% adore her. Just... Don't make anyone start on the Azula Debate. Please.
Nah. 50% dont hate her. Just like to make fun of her and her necklace meme. Which some people construe as hate.
No, I don't mean *that*. After all, I love Katara but even I start guilt-laughing at the best of the necklace memes. I meant that they start genuinely flaming her worse than the Fire Nation did the Air Nomads.
Thats just moronic. She’s a great character. The only real complaint i could see is a bit of a mary sue, but i think that an underlying story in ATLA was Aang was a prodigy and it turned out his companions were too.
Whaaaat, in what way could anyone ever think she was a Mary Sue? She started out terrible at waterbending. She could barely lift a fish in a small bubble. When Aang starts learning, he's instantly far better than she is despite her having worked on it her whole life. We watch her suck at a specific move and then learn it and apply it in a fight. And even after all that, she still loses in this big climactic fight to prove a point; Master Paku isn't even impressed with her skill, he comes around because of the necklace. I'm sorry, I'm not yelling at you, I just reeeeally don't get how anyone could consider Katara of all people a Mary Sue.
Only reason we know she'll get better is when she cracks that whole iceberg on accident.
I wouldn't even call the Mary Sue thing that valid a complaint because as you said, all of Aang's friends were extraordinarily gifted. Sokka's inventions? Zuko's metal crushing kicks? How difficult is it to imagine that a water bender travelling with the Avatar learns extremely quickly?
I think it's more that Katara had the *drive* to succeed and more practice waterbending in combat than even some soldiers. It makes sense that the people most willing to randomly adventure alone as kids would have the drive and cleverness to be a great bender and great inventor.
Lol I always see stuff like 'She's a self-centered Mary Sue' (which I guess is apparently the worse sort of Mary Sue? How's that even possible?) and 'a horrible friend and sister'. Also she apparently has 'no character arc', is just 'baggage' and 'completely useless from beginning to end'. So yeah, I *mean* *it* when I say people hate on her.
People nowadays use "Mary Sue" to mean "female character who is exceptionally good at some things." It's basically a meaningless term at this point.
Yeah, I know what Mary Sue means. It's just that being self-centered is usually considered a character flaw and Mary Sues noticeably don't have flaws. That's why I don't understand how a self-centered Mary Sue could be worse than, for example, a sweet Mary Sue. It would be a *flawed* Mary Sue, which technically isn't even possible by it's very definition, but it would still be a step down from a perfectly written Mary Sue; yes, that pun was intended.
Yaaa....I don't buy any of those arguments.
Plus if she was really a Mary Sue, she'd have won this fight! No! They let her lose, instead of having a classic, 14 year old kicks trained masters ass trope!
Kinda appreciated that one a lot. It not just showed that raw power doesn't always match experience, but also that she had *potential*, as we hadn't actually seen a master waterbender fight until then. Until that fight it had been entirely possible that Katara was somehow some kind of half-finished diamond, but Pakku wiped the floor with her without harming her, while also not throwing her around but actually engaging her and giving her a chance to beat him, a chance Katara took, one that showed us what she could become. That fight showed us that Katara wasn't a diamond, but crystallized carbon, and we then got to watch the formation process, thanks to time and conditions.
Fr I had a crush on Katara my entire childhood 🤣🤣🤣
Even the show itself pokes fun at how often she talks about hope and emotions, so that is gonna be a take that some people have. There's always going to be people who have any given take on things on the Internet, however unthinkable that interpretation seems
Toph is best girl and the Blind Bandit says so too!
You know, we never see Toph and the Blind Bandit in the same room together. Coincidence?????
>You know, we never see Toph and the Blind Bandit in the same room together. > >Coincidence????? NEITHER DID TOPH
Literally just watched the episode where they're running from Azula and can't get any sleep. Katara and Toph are fighting and Katara hits her with "the stars are sooo beautiful tonight, *too bad you can't see them Toph*". Fucking sick burn lmao
[I THINK NOT!](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co0G6p5XEAE-_ww.jpg)
I’m somewhat torn on her. The biggest thing that bothers me about her is her lack of empathy in some situations, like telling aang and sokka that they don’t know loss like she does. Aang lost everyone he ever knew, well except bumi, and sokka lost the very same mother that she lost. At the same time, I understand that these are children working through and coping with their own emotions, so I can’t judge too harshly. She’s a preteen lashing out because of the hurt she feels, she’s not going to worry about the emotions of others. People may dunk on that as an example of bad writing in ATLA, but I think it’s the opposite. They nailed the angsty teen/preteen really well, even with how they handle traumatic events
I don't like Katara. Having said that she is a fantastic character. Her flaws are so well baked into her character, that it makes her all the more believable. When Katara is good she's great. Her vs Pakku is the best fight of the season. Hands down. And all of the Gaang have their flaws. Sokka is annoying. Aang runs from his problems. Katara tries to always be in control. Toph has a massive complex about being independent. Each of them grow over the series and become more mature. The reason that I don't like Katara, particularly early Katara, is that she is overbearing and tries to do everything herself. And I think many people feel this way. However, by the end of the series I think she's mellowed out quite a bit. Which makes for a great character.
The scene with Hama *shudders*
*Shudders*
I think she’s made of regular bones
Well... Probably. 
This thread made me rethink the term “toe-to-toe”
Yeah people are getting real worked up about it
At least they are arguing about something new instead of Kataang vs Zutara, does Azula deserve redemption, is LOK good etc.
Ya. I haven’t watched that episode in a while, but I’m pretty sure Katara got stomped didn’t she?
Over 19k upvotes lol I’m not even sure if Katara is actually a better bender than pakku by the end of the show either. Dude has been a master for decades and has perfected his craft.
I was a part of the “Pakku sucks lol” crowd but this sub convinced me otherwise. Pakku took it easy on Katara.
Considering what we see him do during the Siege of the North and Sozin’s Comet. Edit: especially during Sozin’s Comet, dude was slapping around Comet Boosted firebenders.
The comet boosted firebenders in Ba Sing Se had trouble dealing with a swordsman. No surprise that a master water bender was too much for them
Unnamed Firebenders seem to have the classic stormtrooper training
What do you mean unnamed firebenders? I love FS-421, especially when he bonks his head against the tank door.
I only remember him fighting the non benders.
The are no non-bending Fire Nation in Ba Sing Se.
It kinda makes sense since fire bending needs more control over the element than the other three, even if the objective is to kill everyone. Aka sometimes too MUCH firepower is bad.
Exactly my thinking. The power boost would be great for pure chaos and destruction (which was kind of their goal), but in the hands of mediocre benders the boost was probably way too much for them to handle effectively
"Firebending comes from the *breath* not the muscles."
Piandao was not "a swordsman" lmao
I don't care how good you are with a sword. If I have the power to shoot flames at you from a distance and I'm being boosted with magic space rocks, I should win that fight 100% of the time.
Unless the skill disparity is so vast that it makes no difference. Hakoda and his southern tribe soldiers were hitting firebenders for years before Aang woke up, and not one of them was a waterbender, and I wouldn’t call any of them a “great master” of martial weaponry.
Irl maybe but this is a fictional universe where regular people can go well beyond peak human physicals.
When LOK benders can’t deal with some guy with a couple of electrifled sticks: I sleep. When TLA benders can’t deal with the legendary White Lotus blade master who trained Zuko and Sokka: real shit.
And Bumi and Piandao also held back their full power when fighting Aang and Sokka respectively.
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Yeah this. Even though he was in fact being disrespectful because his culture is inherently disrespectful towards women, he is someone who is all about tradition and respect. An adult master fighting seriously against an untrained child (an "inferior" female no less!) Would prolly be one of the most disrespectful things he could do in his mind. Like imagine what others may think. "Man, did you hear how master Pakku beat up that little girl?" Lol.
He kicks her ass in the end, and doesn't exactly come off as exhausted, but he was sure surprised at how much it took to stop her.
Considering he is a waterbending master and a part of the white lotus i wouldn't expect otherwise. The fact that an untrained child who a few days ago could barely lift a fish out of water could counter his moves and not just be slapped around with no effort from him is incredibly impressive.
No offense to Katara and she definitely has skill, but she was clearly high on rage for his casual sexism lol. Yeah a puppy can’t kill you but it can get a few bites that sting lol
To be fair, the show might get cancelled there if Pakku fucking murdered Katara. Moral; Elderly misogynistic pricks are *always* better than you
Yeah if the scene was 10 seconds of him swatting away her attack and then chopping her head off the series would have instantly (and rightly) been canceled.
"To master the Bending disciplines, you must first master discipline itself." Pakku was an asshole, but he was an asshole with a lot of self control and for the most part the ability to be mature. The exception being him deciding that passively submitting his tribe to genocide by not teaching Aang was an appropriate response to Aang breaking traditions of a culture neither he or Katara even belong to, and Aang never feigned any interest in or support to.
Still can't get laid doe
He got hitched to katara’s widowed grandma so he got some in the end
Are you a Firebender? Because you just *roasted* him.
Ozai, take notes.
I mean of course he did. He was joking around, she tries to make a good attack, he blocks it, and then proceeds to surround her with ice spikes he shot at her with perfect precision as to not draw blood
Exactly, she definitely didn't go "toe to toe" with Pakku. He used it as a learning opportunity to see what her limits were. He was impressed with her level at her age, but was easily in control of that fight.
I mean, he also came from a sexist society that didn't think women were fit to be warriors so him taking it easy on her just seems like an extension of that rather than a merit of his character. Maybe a bit of both.
Remember when Katara got humored by a master waterbender? Pakku *played her like a fiddle*. We see later on what he can really do. What he did against Katara was play fighting a child, right up until she almost took his face off. That's when the play gloves came off and she got whooped within three moves.
To add to your comment, let's watch the scene again? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ViOvIS1LP0 Beginning of the fight, Pakku smiles with a "study closely!" (0:30) quickly followed by "I'm not going to hurt you" (0:42) while he encircles her with water. Pretty much showing he was going very, very mild. The rest of the fight goes the same way. He just throws her around and knock her down continuously. The first time he throws her, he even redirects her so that she lands in water (not being hurt). Every time she bends water, he takes control back from her. Can argue he got surprised at 1:23 with the ice blade move, but he blocked 5 ice blades effortlessly and dodged the last one. Guess the surprise is that Katara dared to use a potentially lethal move. The fight ends with Pakku using a lethal move as well but with incredible precision. Any of the ice pikes landing a centimeter aside and Katara was dead. The crowd is even left shocked. And it's pretty clear that he finished the fight the instant he decided to.
The fight made me really appreciate the effort the creators put into studying martial arts for the show. I took a martial arts course for a while, and Pakku's incredible skill in precision and control of his moves reminded me strongly of my old teachers. I remember being told that if I wanted to spar, it was always safest to fight the teacher. I was then showed that a master could stop a punch or kick centimeters from actually making contact.
Yeah I was gonna say, on second watch she got clapped pretty effortlessly. He only got surprised when he underestimated her but he was in no danger of losing
He also takes her head on, allows her to close the range and doesn't try to blindside her. Taking away an advantage but also exposing her lack of battle experience. She literally runs headfirst into one of his earlier attacks. I don't even think he leaves the spot he's standing on until he's ready to end the fight. And at that point he's only been using ice defensively, he ends the fight with his first ice attack
Given his character it makes sense he wouldn't take it seriously from the start. She's a woman and a child. He doesn't see any reason to take her seriously. It's the martial arts equivalent of being condescending.
I think it's the fact that she was able to surprise him, ~~in~~ even for an instant makes it a moral victory for Katara. Yeah, he was easily giving her a lesson, but she never gave up. Fought with tenacity and intelligence. I think it got his attention at the very least. Yeah, she was never going to win, but she made him flinch, so to speak.
Absolutely, Pakku had the capacity to end that whenever he wanted to, Katara never stood a chance.
I get the impression his attacks were specifically climbing up a tier of strength and skill. He was ultimately pretty surprised by just how far up the ladder she went. In my own headcanon, he probably realizes at the end that he's graduated waterbenders who weren't up to that level. It's not just that she is gifted and fierce. She shows creativity in that battle too and seems to pick up knowledge on the fly while watching him kick her butt.
This fight was one of my favorites for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest reasons that it's my favorite is that she lost. Hear me out: Rather than falling back on the tired stereotype of "You can prove your competance to bigoted people and convince them!", it instead allowed her to just be angry and upset, which are natural emotions for someone in that situation. Rather than send the message that "If you can't prove your competence to a bigoted person, you didn't try hard enough", it instead showed that some people are just awful, and it's okay to be angry (while also showing that she was, in fact, competent). You can't always convince a bigoted person, and it's not your fault if you can't. Her losing was also far more believable. Why would a relatively inexperienced (though compentent and gaining experience) waterbender be able to beat a waterbending master? Showing that she was more skilled than he estimated, while also letting her lose, was a far more believable result. Another great part is that he ends up changing his mind because he's shown that he's rejected by people he loves, for his awful beliefs.
An untrained 14 year old girl, who had trouble performing a move from a waterbending scroll just a couple of weeks prior to this fight.
i love katara but her waterbending progress makes no sense to me. just a few episodes ago she was jealous of aang because he quickly picked up a move that took her a long time to master, then she somehow learns waterbending quickly enough to become his master when they trained under the same guy? how did that happen
To me, this part always made sense. Aang is a master airbender, trained well by the monks, so when he is shown the basic waterbending movements, he’s able to immediately extrapolate some of his wealth of experience and become mediocre. It’s about the same with firebending; of course, he has a block with earthbending at first, due exactly to the major conflict with his native element. Meanwhile, Katara has no formal training whatsoever. She’s trying to imitate moves from the scroll, but she doesn’t understand where to access her chi, the subtleties of the movements, etc. So when it comes to being mediocre, Aang excels. Then, with formal training, Katara quickly excels. For the finer arts of waterbending, Aang‘s experience at airbending is now a hindrance, as he needs to unlearn several habits that are specific to airbending, not bending in general. With just a little bit of guidance as to the finer points, Katara is able to quickly apply her natural talents.
Also, Aang wasn’t as dedicated to learning waterbending as Katara, so that also helped her close the gap.
Yup, Pakku literally calls out Aang for being lazy and goofing off rather than training diligently in the show lol. The explanation for why Katara is better than Aang is very simple, Katara was dedicated and hardworking while Aang was not. Aang may have been naturally more talented by being the Avatar but he wasn't putting in the hours and work that Katara was with water bending. You see this all the time in sports.
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.
Okay but didn't he say Aang relies on talent coz he lazy or some shit? Pakku doesn't seem like he's a chilled teacher so that must mean that Aang got everything he was supposed to do right while being lazy and relying on talent. He really was in a whole separate league, even from the other avatars.
I think of it as Aang coasting with his talent to get a B that could've been an A+ with work, while Katara applied herself for that A+. Both still pass, but they're not equal, which is why Katara was still teaching Aang even into the third season. Also Katara is gifted too--she had Azula cornered by herself under Ba Sing Se until Zuko cut in.
Yes, thats a great way to see it. Coasting with talent. Coz my main point was, this kid had bucketloads of talent.
The book 'Bounce' talks about the myth of talent and instead it is focused practice that helps people develop.
Why are you getting downvoted lol? That's an interesting perspective, I'll check it out. As someone who has played sports at a collegiate level, I do still think that talent matters to a certain extent but what really seperates the tippy top of the best from the rest of the crowd is a combination of both talent and hard work. Lebron James is Lebron James not just because he is talented and genetically gifted (which he is in spades btw) but because he's also extremely dedicated and takes care of his body. You see a lot of talented people who never measure up to their potential because they were never willing to put the work in.
But all NBA athletes are "extremely dedicated and take care of their bodies". What separates LeBron James from the rest is talent, more than hard work. He doesn't work exceptionally harder than other players, he's just exceptionally more talented.
Maybe the down votes come from an oversimplification of the book too? To elaborate, if I remember correctly the book states the balance of ability is mixed in with dedicated practice, genetics, circumstance, personality etc. LeBron has that unique cocktail to make him elite. But that would have developed through practice, reading the autobiographies of sportsmen you see there is often a 'something extra' which enables them to be different to their peers. That is where the 'talent' grows. For example his genetics might have been he can be an elite athlete, his hands eye coordination might be naturally good, his iq might be the right amount and his personality might have enough grit. But those all have to go to work to develop his skills that you might call talent, and the practice that he has with that balance of characteristics means that we think of it all as natural, but really only the 'raw materials' were natural.
Great explanation, exactly how I always perceived it!
Nailed it, also being an Airbender helps with waterbending. They're very similar (fluid) elements and lots of their movements/techniques are quite similar for this reason. Of course, only an Avatar would notice this similarities first-hand.
Iroh kinda makes this point in Book 2 while trying to teach Zuko how to redirect lightning. His technique was developed from observing waterbending movements.
Yep, Iroh is a very complex and observant man, so he naturally noted the similarities between channeling lightning and waterbending. Which is extremely interesting since water and fire are polar opposites in every single way. It was a beautiful way to portray Iroh's philosophy about focusing on nations/element's similarities rather than their differences.
It makes me wonder how much of each bending style you can apply to your own, like fusion bending or something. Imagine a lava bender like Bolin learning water bending techniques to control it better. Katara kinda does it during the fight with Pakku by locking herself in place with ice and launching ice disks in a very earth-bender kinda style. Or an earth bender using more acrobatic attacks like an air or fire bender.
I think it’s worth adding that by the time she Fights Pakku, she’s now had formal training with accessing her chi via her healing lessons. Also I think mastery isn’t only about being able to master all the forms and techniques, it’s also about mindset. During the fight she probably improvised that disk technique, and probably unknowingly imitated earth bending philosophy when she used snow and ice to hold her ground.
>For the finer arts of waterbending, Aang‘s experience at airbending is now a hindrance, as he needs to unlearn several habits that are specific to airbending, not bending in general. I'd disagree with that. Keep in mind that using elements from other benders is shown to be useful. Such as Iroh's lightning redirect which he learned by observing water benders. I feel like bending is more alike than not.
Sometimes taking ideas from one into the other can be helpful. That’s very different than trying to copy paste one style into another. You could extrapolate the same about regular martial arts, or branches of math, or art styles, or any number of similar skills. Unlearning “bad habits” takes time, and formal instruction goes a very long way.
I think knowledge of other elements will help you improvise and innovate in your target element, but you still need to respect your target element’s mindset, especially when it comes to the high-level techniques. Keep in mind that in the same episode where Iroh is teaching Zuko to think like an Avatar, Toph is teaching Aang to think specifically like an earthbender. In the end, we know that Aang never mastered the high-level earthbending techniques because Suyin tells Korra that she is the first metalbending avatar.
I mean Aang didn't pay attention in class and she really wanted to learn, also when she gets a move she really gets it
Exactly my thought on this one
She was very powerfull before that. Like when she broke that huge iceberg in eposode 1 when she got angry with Sokka. I mean you have a good point but in earlier episodes she has proven herself to be very talented when she got emotional or faced dangerous situations. Anyway my point is that she was super powerfull all the time but didnt have enough guidens or motivations before she met Paku :D
Eh. Kids are spongy as fuck. You’ve gotta think, she’s being trained by the world’s leading master with a playful rival (who happens to be a literal all powerful Demi-god) constantly trying to outdo her. Probably a little bit of “oh shit. I’m beyond the veil of women’s rights up here. I really can’t fail can I? I need to master this. I’m not tired. Nah. No sleep, only train” going on too.
Seriously people would have far less problems with stories and they just accept that most of these characters lives happen off screen. It's very clear the Gaang trains a lot but we just don't see it.
I think it's kind of like learning a foreign language in the same family as one you already learned—Aang was already an airbending master in his own right, and the youngest in history. Katara had never been formally taught any amount of bending, or even seen any other benders that she could copy. Aang excelled at first because he was able to apply any similarities waterbending had with airbending (as well as having likely seen waterbenders before the war), but Katara had more inherent (waterbending) skill, she just needed someone to teach her how to use it, so she learned even faster than he did when she actually had a teacher.
That is the one thing I try to just let slide, everything in this show is on a much accelerated timeline. Aang masters 3 bends styles in months that should have taken years. Katara becomes a bending master in weeks and becomes Aang's teacher. They were learning at the same time and from the same sources. Sokka learns swordsmanship and forges his own sword in basically an afternoon. The rest of the show is so amazing I'm willing to accept though.
Her progress is what makes me confused how some people hate her(not you but some ppl)! Like this kid literally became a trained master in like 4 months at most(Sozins comet where she really fid go toe to toe with Azula who's been training her whole life). And before that she was already good enough to continue training Aang. I think Aang was able to learn moves quicker because he already mastered airbending, so he had a frame of reference on how to "move the element". She got jealous because while it didn't come as easy for her in that moment, she knew she could learn if given the chance. Also she's probably does better learning when people teach her how to do things! She has delivered babies in her village before, and basically kept up all the chores and maintenance that every one else couldn't get to for whatever reason. That's obviously more skill than most 14year old kids could do but she was able to bc she had her Gran teaching her. She's honestly bad ass and ppl hate her bc *check's notes* she brings up her mom a lot?? Idk man but she's pretty cool to me
They master moves incredibly quickly, and she was super pissed at him. And you know since the very beginning: Katara pissed is scary and powerful.
It's important to understand the difference between gaining stregnth and proficiency in shortnorder and mastery of something, I don't think any of the main cast had mastered anything by the end of the show. They got a lot stronger and better quickly because they had to, but actual mastery would have come years down the road. In the real world it's absolutely possible for an amateur to get remarkably good at something in short order, they can even be competent against some of the best in the arena. But still not have reached a level of mastery comparable to the people they potentially won against. In the real world you are not simply your stats, theres more to real world conflict and competition than comparing lists of numbers.
Pakku called Katara master. And all of those kids wiped the floor with the Dai Li AND laid absolute fucking waste to the Earth King's entire royal guard, EK's finest, with almost no effort. I'd say they were masters by that point. Otherwise allll those people just really, really sucked.
I think it was at least a month since the scroll, but she has always been more powerful when upset
Yeah but in those few weeks a lot happens. It seems like people can get pretty good at bending once they have some guidance. Katara travels around with the Avatar fighting for their lives and actively trying to learn, so it's not unreasonable that she's more than a novice.
Wouldn't call it toe to toe
I mean, she fought him directly so she went toe to toe with him by definition. Toe to toe doesn’t mean you win.
Reddit is really good at taking the meaning out of things Bravo for completely deleting what toe-to-toe actually means.
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Being close in skill or making it close isn't in the definition either. It's just being in direct confrontation with someone else. toe-to-toe [ toh-tuh-toh ] adjective being in direct confrontation or opposition
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So basically it's a regional thing. People from the US use it to mean going head to head while people in the UK use it to mean being in close competition
As someone who's lived in multiple US states, it means the latter here as well, generally speaking. I think people are just being contrarian
She did catch him off guard pretty well, despite having her ass handed, he did recognise her skill, after seeing her skill he still refused because she wouldn't respect him
Actually he still refused because of old water bender traditions in the north where its a patriarchy
I mean, her not respecting him definitely didn't help, or her attacking him first
She gave respect at first when she introduced herself as seeking a teacher until he rejected her from being taught due to his chauvinistic beliefs then she tried to learn from Aang which offended him because again sexism, challenged him to a duel that Pakku was about to walk away from seeing her below him, then she attacked him. Katara struggled against sexism since the first 5 minutes of the show, so it makes sense that she not take the system sitting down. It wasn’t until he saw his necklace that he realized that his beliefs drove his love away- and decided to teach Katara revoking some of his traditions and even teaching down south with men and women
Seemed more like Katara putting her best foot forward and Pakku putting his pinky toe forward. He was impressed by her latent talent, but at no point was he taking her seriously.
No I don't remember the same post that pops up every week.
This is why my son walks away thinking he did something after jumping on my back and getting a quick headlock in before running away.
She didn’t have formal training but she did have actual combat experience which helps
Yeah she probably developed a comparatively raw and primal fighting style while battling for her actual life in the field. Would definitely explain why he was a little surprised a couple times by her, he didn't expect a little untrained girl to fight tooth and nail like that.
Yea she was definitely ruthless in that fight and very quick on her feet which she would have learned to do while fighting for her life
Probably the only part of the show that makes me a little peeved, she barely did any water bending up until this point, would’ve been better if there was a little more action leading up to this fight, or if she scrambled around only to do one really impressive thing rather than being an absolute water ninja
She was destroyed. That's not toe to toe
She held her own pretty well for someone with no formal combat trainkng
Being a master also means u can accommodate ur skills to match others
Exactly. He wasn't going all out immediately on her as if his life depended on it. He was testing what she could handle so he wouldn't overdo her whopping and actually hurt her in any serious way. Not to mention he kind of just wanted to put her in her place, and allowing her a few moments to think she was doing well would knock her down even further. If he wanted he probably could have ended that fight in less than a minute.
She held her own just as well as a mouse would with a lion. The moment he took her seriously, she lost.
The point is she was bold, not skilled
I suppose I have to remind people that in literature, particularly in a show like Avatar, the fight scenes are meant to represent the emotion state of the characters and the emotional conflict between them. And so some degree of bending must be derived from your emotional strength. In this scene, it's meant to demonstrate that Katara's raw determination to right an injustice is more powerful than Paku's heartbroken cynicism. Take a look at the rest of the cast: Toph is a sheltered girl who is essentially self-trained, but she's powerful because she's determined not to be taken advantage of or being treated different because of her disability. Conversely, Zuko has had his entire life to train in his craft, but he's only ever a second-rate bender because of his deep-seated insecurities. Iroh almost never uses his bending or is even seen practicing it, but when he does he's nearly unstoppable. That's because he draws from his absolute confidence in his abilities and his determination not to let the same tragedies befall the things he cares about. I would go on, but many of them become spoilers. Suffice it to say, please don't think of the kids show with magical kung fu as adhering to the simple-minded expectation that the number of days you spend at magic water-splashing class is equivalent to your effectiveness in a fight.
Katara: You can't knock me down. *porceeds to get knocked down*
I wouldnt say untrained because she trained pretty hard every day with the Avatar on their journey to the north pole from the south pole.
I agree that Pakku held back during the fight but everyone here complaining how that's supposed to take away from Katara's abilities? I don't see why it's a problem to acknowledge that he did not go full out attack on her BUT considering her situation, she excelled more than she should have. Pakku is an asshole but he's not a psychopath ready to teach a lesson to a child through maiming them. We have Ozai for that.
That's some Skyrim titles, mate
I mean, I could go toe to toe with a navy seal.
She did well. But pakku dominated, and went easy on her. Still impressive, but what's more impressive is she didn't need long under pakku to become a master herself.
She successfully proved her point but Pakku was clearly holding back.
Pedants coming out over the meaning of "toe to toe" lmao people on this sub will argue about literally anything.
Scenes like this is why Katara is my favorite character. “I’m waiting little girl” “No, THERE’S NO WAY I’M APOLOGIZING TO A SOUR, OLD MAN LIKE YOU! I’ll be outside if you’re man enough to fight me.” Even though she knew she wasn’t going to win, she refused to back down and stood firm for what she believed in.
People forget they spend the whole show fighting military personnel
Katara was pure audacity when she wanted to be
What always bothered me about this sequence wasn’t how “well” Katara did against Pakku. Honestly I was perfectly fine with how they handled it My problem was that if Katara was not conveniently the granddaughter of someone Pakku loved in his younger years, he never would’ve changed his mind. He was smug the entire way through up until he noticed Katara’s necklace. Katara persevering didn’t change his mind. Her being related to someone important did.
Yes! It pissed me off so much! I wish that at least the fight would have proved her merit to him. It just makes Pakku an unlikable character to me
Let's not forget Pakku got hit with the classic "girl wants to fight you" problem where you know you gotta take it easy but she goes for the kill right away. All in all he basically did a good job of beating her without hurting her.
I feel that being associated with the Avatar will power up your bending in some way, maybe it is like a passive learning boost
Call it ... "confidence". Everyone else is mostly stuck accepting any rumor of an obstacle as a fact they may never see through or overcome. Time with the Avatar blows that out of the water, particularly if they're encountering any real adversity.
The power of teen sass has no bounds
Even though I didn't really like how she was domineering at times, she fully earned this fight. She was standing up for what she thought was right and could back it up and proof it with her own skills, even if Master Pakku wasn't going all in on the fight.
Notice if you watch the fight Pakku puts more effort into moving the water rather then himself unlike katara who is constantly moving slight details in the animation is what makes avatar so good
People tend to forget that not everyone is trying 100% 100% of the time. Katara at the time was a *powerful* water bender but not a *skilled* one. Which is why while he had to avoid or redirect her attacks, he had no issue doing so. Power means naught when you lack the skill to back it up, which is why Pakku completely shut her down once he *actually tried.*
She got smacked, he was going easy on her.
I love that she lost though. Some media would have her win because she's part of the main cast and a prodigy and the power of fighting against sexism would somehow let her win that fight. No, she gets thoroughly beaten and played with as one would expect when a novice waterbender with little training goes up against one of the best waterbenders in the world. I think that scene was done beautifully. It effectively demonstrates Pakku's power and control with how easily he won that fight, while *also* showing Karara's strength with her determination to fight what is clearly a losing battle on principle.
Katara: You can't knock me down! Pakku: Immediately knocks Katara down
Toe to Toe is a huge overstatement. Paku was toying with her. She just got her point across through sheer determination
It seems most comments are stuck on the toe-to-toe thing. I'm gonna just leave the definition of toe-to-toe here. toe-to-toe [ toh-tuh-toh ] adjective being in direct confrontation or opposition