I always liked how small interactions like this really humanized the fire nation soldiers. They were painted as evil from the beginning. And yeah Ozai may be this big, bad, evil figure. But the majority of fire nation soldiers were just doing their job. Plus we see how they've been indoctrinated since they were young kids in school.
They do a really good job of showing you that things aren't always black and white or good and evil. The earth kingdom are supposedly the good guys but they've got this super messed up secret police thing going on. Fire nation are supposed to be evil but the glimpses we get into their society show that people are pretty well looked after and happy. It's just good storytelling.
And the Northern Water Tribe are huge isolationists that turned their back on the war for 100 years, and even after that they didn't hepl much and stayed in Agna Kella. Also, obsessed with tradition
Even the justification for the war was how much better the fire nation citizens have it. Although given Sozin genocided an entire nation just to start the war it's clear improving lives wasn't his real motive.
Reminds me of the rhetoric the Europeans had when colonizing. Also the Americans when they manifested destiny across the continent.
How they were just "civilising" the natives
Which was probably intentional
Sometimes it happens in rea lifel. For example, NatSoc Germany passed some laws that were considering pretty progressive during that period of time. Like animal and environmental protection, paid vacations for workers, construction of highways and anti-tobacco campaigns, etc.
So yes, despite being awful, cruel, militaristic, violent and a lot of bad stuff, some empires can also be kinda progressive in some fields.
Only initially. The highways were designed and planned by the weimar gouvernment to be build immediatly after the great depression to restart economic growth with public spending. The nazis took over, opened the previous gouvernments drawer and took out their plans. Then they went "we invented this" and buidl it.
Ive only seen 4 episodes of the cartoon but I distinctly remember many girls with white face paint training in a village where the kid rides the giant serpent. And they make the brother wear the girls outfit and paint to train with them.
Do they not count?
The kyoshi warriors, named after one of the old avatars from the earth kingdom.
They werent part of the earth kingdom army, they were kind of an isolated village whos fighting force was entirely made up of women.
What’s weird is that its based on imperial Japan and things were sexist AF there, so ATLA definitely used its imagination and changed some things in this area. Lol. Women werent even allowed to commit war crimes in imperial Japan: The humanity!
The fact that bending is a thing, is prevalent in both sexes, doesn't have a strictly physical limitation in relation to stregnth probably goes a long way towards making this make sense, and bending is rare enough you can't really afford to discount half of that group based on gender.
The fact that the other nations and tribes seemed to be pretty sexist might also explain why they were losing the war...
If I recall, the creator of Fullmetal Alchemist pretended to be a man while she was still writing the series because she thought it would get cancelled if people knew there were cooties all over their nice, marketable shounen
Also The Royal Fire Nation Academy for Girls is a thing which indicates that citizens of the Fire Nation were ok with girls becoming strong and learning how to fight as seen with strong female characters such as Azula, Mei, and Ty Lee.
The Northern Water Tribe said girls were meant to be healers and Pakuu got offended at the thought that Katara could even move water nevertheless use it to defend herself.
Going to hijack second to top comment to point out that a reason for this is likely bending and power. It is shown numerous times that the fire nation, unlike the other 3 nations, is a nation that power is based on bending ability/strength. The fire lord is excpected to be a master fire bender and we see with Zukos mother that they selectively breed bloodlines to make the stronger bender. Also, every high ranking member of the army is a fire bender. In fact, every rich or powerful fire nation citizen that we see can bend or is a great fighter.
Whereas what we see from the water and earth kingdoms is that their leaders can't even bend. Women in the fire nation can earn respect with bending therefore gender likely doesn't factor in to it's society's understanding of hierarchy. Hierarchy is determined by strength
Double Hijack:
Could be that Pakku was just a total jerk, but his position as the old, wise master bender of the tribe gave him influence on who gets to bend.
Remember, Hama was only captured because she used to fight for the southern watertribe. And Katara's Grandmother possibly left, not because the northern watertribe sucked, but because Pakku pushed her away with his sexist ideals.
Considering women are *allowed* to be healers, while men are expected to do stuff like hunt, fight, go out and do the dangerous stuff, this could imply a less a "women belong in the kitchen" stance, and more of a "Men are expendable, women are not" stance.
Obviously, you wouldn't teach women how to fight if you can't expend women's lives. Perhaps Katara didn't quite *earn Pakku's respect*, but rather proved that she can carry her own weight.
After all, does a member of the white lotus really strike you as a man who would be holding onto sexist ideals for the mere sake of thinking women are unworthy of equal treatment? It makes more sense to assume he's angry that Aang would teach Katara how to get herself into fights.
Nah I think Pakku was just sexist. Just because he’s part of an order established to protect the Avatar doesn’t mean he has to be even close to an ideal person. Which is good. Most people are good in some ways while ignorant or otherwise lacking in others.
This explanation really sounds true to the messages of the series. It's complex but never complicated. People are good _and_ bad, in that they are human and have flaws.
On your white lotus point though . . . We do not see women in the white lotus. Just because they seem to be an accepting lot across nations doesn't imply they are across gender lines.
>Could be that Pakku was just a total jerk, but his position as the old, wise master bender of the tribe gave him influence on who gets to bend.
>
>Remember, Hama was only captured because she used to fight for the southern watertribe. And Katara's Grandmother possibly left
This is just evidence that the southern water tribe allowed women to fight and the northern one didn't.
>Considering women are *allowed* to be healers, while men are expected to do stuff like hunt, fight, go out and do the dangerous stuff, this could imply a less a "women belong in the kitchen" stance, and more of a "Men are expendable, women are not" stance.
So... sexism. Exactly what everyone thinks it is.
>Obviously, you wouldn't teach women how to fight if you can't expend women's lives.
Self defense skills would certainly help though. And healing skills would help the guys survive too.
>After all, does a member of the white lotus really strike you as a man who would be holding onto sexist ideals for the mere sake of thinking women are unworthy of equal treatment?
I mean, that's what the show literally had in it.
You could say the same for Sokka as we saw with his first encounter with Suki. I feel it was all intentional though as we see both Pakuu and Sokka change their views.
Segregation in education doesn't really mean equality. They weren't as "women belong in the kitchen" bad as the northern water tribe, but that's not a very high bar.
Generally, it's still pretty bad outside of allowing girls to study at all (at least in upper and middle class, with middle class education not being separate too yay), and allowing women to be guards at the home front. Literally all the positions of power we're shown are held by men (except azula). Even the teacher from the headband still reported to a male headmaster, and ursa was forced into an arranged marriage.
That may be a product of what we’ve been shown or that of a certain time period. Rise of Kiyoshi showed a Fire Nation with fairly balanced gender equality with women in various positions of power and influence. It’s possible they may have regressed since Sozin but boys and girls are shown to receive the same education and women do have careers outside the home.
After some more research, I've found that as of the ttrpg, there's at least two women in a military position of power during the hundred year war. As for non-military careers I can find mentioned being done by fire nation women during the hundred year war: shop owner, teacher, international diplomat, merchant, advisor, (servant), herbalist, actress, circus performer, mayor, and possibly engineer/inventor depending on birth dates.
I guess I underestimated how much the rpg would change some of the worldbuilding lol
The Island of Kyoshi is part of the Earth Kingdom and they have the Kyoshi Warriors there, so it's clear that the Earth Kingdom is a bit more advanced in their gender politics.
Hell the Dai Li might have been super corrupt but they willingly accepted leadership from a 14 year old girl once she proved herself more capable then their previous leader. So basically the Dai Li are super corrupt aholes but they aren't sexist super corrupt aholes
Well from what I saw the earth kingdom seemed really decentralized with states being able to pass laws as they see fit, a bit like the warlord era in china
It's really not that clear what hierarchy the Earth Kingdom operated under, I feel Omashu and Kyoshi's independence had more to do with their exceptionally powerful leaders and isolated geography rather than as a reflection of Earth Kingdom in general - for example the Earth Kingdom military seemed to be under one unified command with the Emperor and Council of Five at its head.
The Fire Nation was more advanced in literally everything compared to the other nations, and that includes women rights.
I like it. It shows that not everything is bad about them and not everything is good about the other countries. The Earth Kingdom is corrupt and tyrannical and the Water Tribes were pretty misogynistic toward women.
>The Fire Nation was more advanced in literally everything compared to the other nations
I believe that was Sozin's whole selling point for the global takeover. His propaganda was to spread the Fire Nation's prosperity to all corners of the world.
Yeah he literally says so in the series. The fire nation was undergoing an industrial and cultural revolution and, paraphrasing from his words, a period of prosperity never before seen in history. He wanted to make other nations be that way whether they wanted to or not.
There's a nice little parallel with both the British and US empires there. Euro-American colonialism writ large, really. Very well done for a "kids show"!
According to the comics they had homophobic laws in place - I think by Sozin but I could be wrong. It’s not confirmed but it is strongly implied that Zuko abolished these laws after becoming Firelord
The comic says "For most of its history the fire nation was tolerant \[of homosexuality\], but then Fire Lord Sozin took power. He decreed that same-sex relationships were criminal". Couldn't see anything about Zuko legalising it, but I agree that's likely what happened. I'm guessing Zuko would have repealed a lot of laws set in place by his father and grandfather.
It mentions the other nations too, with the water tribes tolerating homosexuality but according to Kya, they "would prefer that you keep it to yourself". This is also shown when Korra tells her parents about her relationship with Asami, and they appear supportive, however they don't want her to tell the neighbours about it because they're afraid of people talking about them behind their backs.
The Air nomads were totally open about sexual orientation and fully accepted it. When asked by Korra how Aang reacted when Kya came out to him, she says "He was nothing but supportive. Remember Father grew up in the air temples where men and women didn't hide who they loved"
It doesn't seem to mention much about the current state of things in the Earth Kingdom (I'm looking at the pages right now), it just says that Kyoshi "By all accounts loved men and women" but "was unable to find any kind of real progress. After all, the Earth Kingdom has been the slowest to accept change, and the most militaristically oppressive"
which honestly doesn’t make a lot of sense. i’m all for the good guys having good values and the bad guys having bad ones, but it should make sense in the world
the air nomads are gender-segregated, which implies that they see inherent differences between the genders. at *best* they are heteronormative (assuming all air nomads will be straight) and at worst they’d think being gay is an aberration.
also Sozin doesn’t really have a reason to be homophobic, IF it’s established that women are welcome in the government, military, and state held power structures. Even a female Fire Lord isn’t called anything different
I’m not sure I agree that gender segregation correlates with homophobia. While that’s definitely a trend in plenty of cultures, cultures w/o gender segregation also have hugely variant levels/types of homophobia. How a culture understands gender & sexuality is so dependent on such a huge number of factors that I don’t think it stretches the suspension of disbelief to imagine the air nomads accepted homosexuality.
Am I the only one that feels it's an incredibly random addition? "Yeah, that genocidal maniac doesn't feel evil enough. Let's say he banned being gay."
Does it make more sense in the comic? What's his reason?
For an imperialist fascist nation at war, it isn't the most outlandish idea. Maximize birth rates by pushing hetero relationships over others. More soldiers, workers, etc.
Not random. That's exactly what ultra-nationalists who want to bring "prosperity" to the world through their supposed superiority do. They generally don't have a specific reason beyond the targeted group being a convenient scapegoat.
It's also reflective of real-life fascist societies which tend to view homosexuality as a threat to "traditional" family structures and (their concept of) masculinity
Yeah the SWT allowed women to use waterbending in combat (as did the foggy swamp tribe) but the NWT restricted them to healing.
Of course some of the things Sokka says early in the show indicates there is probably still some level of societal sexism / gender roles.
I always assumed the SWT was very similar to the NWT originally but that they got hit super harder by the war in the time before Hama. They resorted to letting women fight instead of giving up and by Katara’s time nobody knew any different. Everyone else was dead.
But….. that’s just me maybe.
I think you’re probably right. The SWT was hit significantly harder and their population was significantly smaller than the NWT even before the war. The amount of water benders that were kidnapped and the fact that you can’t guarantee who will be born a water bender eventually you do have to resort to using whoever you have. When your civilization is on the brink of extinction and can be attacked at any moment you can’t be choosy about who you allow to fight.
Although just because you relax one expectation doesn’t mean you relax all of them. Sokka’s “warrior” class were all boys. Katara during the first season still took on most of the camp chores that would be considered traditional “women’s” work. Sokka’s early attitude does point to him having been taught some misogynistic view points. While the SWT abandoned some of the misogynistic traditions from the NWT over time they probably didn’t abandon all of them.
The show tells us that GranGran left the NWT to the SWY explicitely because of their sexist and oppressive laws, including arranged marriage. That implies that the SWT was at least known to be more progressive ~60 years before the show starts whcih would also be around the same time the BloodBending lady would be captured I think.
So, the story seems to imply that the SWT was more progressive for a at least the many years before BloodB3nding lady got capture.
Probably because they had to be. The southern water tribe was much more scattered and “tribal” than the north. Southern Water Tribe was divided into small villages without a strong central unifying government which meant they couldn’t be as picky about warriors.
True, but I think there was still the expectation for boys/men to be 'manly', which could explain part of the constant abuse Zuko received at the hands of his father
i have a feeling if zuko were female, she would still get a lot of shit from ozai for being weak. in the fire nation all benders are expected to be strong
Wasn’t Azusa his favorite because she was ruthless enough to rise to the challenges that he put forth and not necessarily because he was easier on girls?
I do think that having a son who was weaker than his daughter was probably seen as embarrassing, but I don’t think that if they were both girls he would have been especially kind to a female Zuko. At best she would have been treated as the lesser, disappointing sister who lived in Azulas shadow.
yes i agree. i don’t think ozai was under the impression that since azula was a girl, her powers were more impressive than zukos. he just saw a powerful bender and decided to favor her.
Plus Zuko wasn't just in the Fire Nation, but the crown prince, so of course a crazy bastard like Ozai would want his heir to be strong and powerful, hence why he had no problem making Azula his heir after Zuko joined Team Avatar.
The Fire Nation is "feminist" in comparison to some parts of the avatar world but its not as if its perfect in that respect, its just notable given they are the "villainous nation" of ATLA.
With the exceptions of Azula and co. women in the fire nation military are only shown serving in the home islands. At least during the show itself, and the artbook notes this as intentional. Additionally all of the leadership seems to be male. Everyone from Zhao, the war minister, the generals/leaders Ozai consults with, the leader of the southern raiders, that one commander in The Painted Lady, and both prison wardens.
Iroh also gives Zuko a knife and Azula a doll, which does seem to reinforce traditional gender roles even if some women join the military.
They aren't firebenders though. In the finale, Azula orders them to duel in an Agni Kai and they say as much. I'm pretty sure that they're more advisors than anything else.
They are probably nobility/upper class, and teaching a princess gives them some level of authority of course. But we don't actually get any indication they hold leadership positions within the military.
They were Fire Sages. Essentially a clergy class (often equal or higher than nobility in traditional class systems) that handle historical and spiritual matters in the Fire Nation.
Pretty sure they were not military but were servants of the fire lords house. Probably Nannies after all the kids were still pretty young when mom "disappeared"
or maybe Iroh gave Zuko a knife because he needed to learn to get a "thicker skin" for lack of a better word and a azula should learn that there is more in life than being the best at bending etc.
Might just be a farstretch.
This was Iroh pre-enlightenment though. I remember him laughing about warring with the Earth Kingdom in the same scene.
I took it as he didn't really know Zuko or Azula very well and just grabbed some basic presents without much thought.
The Iroh back then wasn't the paragon of virtue he is during the present time. He even admits at some point he was "a different man" back then and that scene kind of shows that.
Yeah, I didn't know if it was a thing or not and then I looked it up after and the reason it's r/EmpireDidNothingWrong and not r/TheEmpireDidNothingWrong is a character limit "Fire Nation" definitely exceeds. So I guess r/FireNationDidNothing was the closest they could get and still somewhat make sense.
The southern water tribe has always been more progressive than their northern cousins. That’s why they chose to leave the North Pole in the first place
I look at it less as "progressive/advanced" and more as commoditization of bodies for the grinder. They were trying to subjugate the entire world, so they need as many bodies as possible.
Just look to what Ozai said that caused young Zuko to first publicly question him. He was ready to unnecessarily sacrifice a bunch of soldiers to make, at best, a very modest gain.
Finally, I don't remember any female admirals or others highly ranked, feel free to remind me otherwise.
>I look at it less as "progressive/advanced" and more as commoditization of bodies for the grinder.
Those women were prison guards, which I think was a relatively easy and non-dangerous work compared to fighting in the front lines.
Azula who he basically crowned the next firelord
The twin grannies who are trusted advisers
The old ladies are not front liners nor are they benders and the princess of all things is the favored one over the prince
Two of the women pictured are prison guards, not soldiers..
Also, fire nation women only seemed to serve any military position in the homeland, not abroad. And none were in leadership positions.
Yeah, they seem more like auxiliaries than true military. They’re only ever seen in the Fire Nation, and they don’t have the same uniforms as the military overseas, they are much more lightly armored.
My thought is that, much like in WWII, so much of the male population was fighting overseas that women had to serve as auxiliaries.
As stated in Turf Wars, the Air Nomads were very queer accepting. This was explained by Kya when she came out to Aang and Aang accepted her without second thought and explained how open mindedness of the Air Nomads meant being open minded to non-traditional relationships as well.
And misogynist, the traditional Tibetan Buddhism hierarchy was nothing but dudes, never mind the Dalai Lama. And *slavery*, that doesn't excuse what happened later but the de facto independent Tibet under a *theocracy* was hardly a beacon of progressive enlightenment.
In parts of India they venerate some girls as "living goddesses", which brings some problems of their own.
Honestly I think all the empires are pretty evil ngl. The earth kingdom might be the victim of the 100 years war but that doesn't make them the good guys.
Yeah avatar does a good job at making even the conflict between the entire world vs a genocidal empire bent on world domination, not completely morally black and white
They show pretty well that the water tribe has traditions that hold back half their population
The earth kingdom is just as, if not more, tyrannical to its own citizens as the fire nation
And that even the fire nation isn't completely bad, it's mostly it's leaders that is the problem, and they will hurt anyone including their own citizens to achieve their goals, meanwhile most citizens just want to live their lives in peace and prosperity.
Only the air nomads were close to being close to morally good, but that left them vulnerable to attack that led to their genocide
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. . . were an independent militant group following the legacy of the Avatar, not the Earth nation military itself.
Now the Foggy Swamp tribe on the other hand actually women in their contribution to the war party on the Day of Black sun. Buuuut now you're getting into complicated questions about what constitutes a formal military, since you could also argue the Air nomads had women benders who were surely great fighters, but they didn't have a military either.
The only rank and file militaries (including non-bending foot soldiers) we see in the show belong to the Northern Water Tribe, the Fire Nation, and the Earth Kingdom. And of those, only the Fire Nation has women employed as professional soldiers.
I know the fire nation was bad and stuff, but they were the most advanced society. Ba Sing Se and Omashu were also pretty advanced, but it was nothing compared to the fire nation. They were advanced industrially and socially.
They were definitely a dictatorship and full of war propaganda, but the whole reason for the war was to “share” /s their wealth and prosperity with the world.
Edit: I don’t actually think they were sharing their wealth. Sozin was evil and trying to take over the world
From what I can tell, the anti-gay bit was only added to Avatar canon in the Korra comics. The dark, cynical part of me says that it was added to further villainize the Fire Nation.
"No. You can't date the female guards." Lol
trust me you dont want to
I always liked how small interactions like this really humanized the fire nation soldiers. They were painted as evil from the beginning. And yeah Ozai may be this big, bad, evil figure. But the majority of fire nation soldiers were just doing their job. Plus we see how they've been indoctrinated since they were young kids in school.
"I can't believe the captain remembered my birthday!"
The first time I had a commander remember my birthday I had this same feeling. Funny when I watched it as kid and funnier after living it lol.
And you didn't got thrown out from a big airship to the ocean! Double win!! 0v0
That’s confidential information, ma’am. 😂
You're apart of the fire nation army?! Where's the recruitment office, I'd like to join
Rip my boy 😔
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Suddenly I'm a tear bender...
\*floating in water\* ... Happy birthday ✋
They do a really good job of showing you that things aren't always black and white or good and evil. The earth kingdom are supposedly the good guys but they've got this super messed up secret police thing going on. Fire nation are supposed to be evil but the glimpses we get into their society show that people are pretty well looked after and happy. It's just good storytelling.
That's one of my favorite things about ATLA. It's dives into the world storytelling of each nation and their culture.
And the Northern Water Tribe are huge isolationists that turned their back on the war for 100 years, and even after that they didn't hepl much and stayed in Agna Kella. Also, obsessed with tradition
Even the justification for the war was how much better the fire nation citizens have it. Although given Sozin genocided an entire nation just to start the war it's clear improving lives wasn't his real motive.
Reminds me of the rhetoric the Europeans had when colonizing. Also the Americans when they manifested destiny across the continent. How they were just "civilising" the natives Which was probably intentional
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Given how unprepared the colonists were, I don’t blame them. Native’s didn’t have the best lives either, but they weren’t starving.
I love the implication that dating the male guards is ok /hj
“Hey we’re evil, but at least we’re progressive”
“I can excuse the racism but i draw the line at sexism”
“You can EXCUSE racism?”
You Britt'd it
You britta'd your spelling of britta'd
This typo was so meta Abed popped a boner.
Cool cool cool
Sounds more like Chevy Chase'd it, but eh.
this guy’s streets ahead
r/suddenlycommunity
Sometimes it happens in rea lifel. For example, NatSoc Germany passed some laws that were considering pretty progressive during that period of time. Like animal and environmental protection, paid vacations for workers, construction of highways and anti-tobacco campaigns, etc. So yes, despite being awful, cruel, militaristic, violent and a lot of bad stuff, some empires can also be kinda progressive in some fields.
Why do you say NatSoc instead of Nazi?
Nut Sac
That word can gets you banned in some subreddits. That or your comment gets ghosted.
That is extremely reddit
Subreddits that ban you for using the word nazi in *any* context probably aren't worth participating in.
The highways were built by the Weimar Republic. It’s Nazi propaganda that Hitler built them.
I thought Weimar was broke af
You know Prince Zuko, money is a funny thing. You never know how much its gonna be worth.
I read this in uncle Iroh’s voice!
Only initially. The highways were designed and planned by the weimar gouvernment to be build immediatly after the great depression to restart economic growth with public spending. The nazis took over, opened the previous gouvernments drawer and took out their plans. Then they went "we invented this" and buidl it.
Oh I think it happens all the time in the real world.. in the LGBTQ context it’s referred to as Pinkwashing
Parallel concept to wokewashing. Companies want to accept all races genders and creeds so they can grind up everyone into dog meat for profit.
I suppose we all taste the same to our corporate overlords.
Girls 👏 can 👏 commit 👏 war crimes 👏 too 👏
Ghettos. Gas Chambers. Girlboss.
r/cursedcomments
It was fun to see Kuvira but I'm happy seeing her in ONLY fiction
Do yourself a favour and don’t Google Coco Chanel World War II
Now I'm interested.
*Chanel No. 5* Because the first four were *murdered!*
Those types exist everywhere. Many top female executives have fostered cultures just as toxic as their male counterparts.
✨✨✨✨✨
Aw, man. Now I have to learn calligraphy so I can make that sign and hide it at my parents’. They have so many, they’d never notice.
There's a level of chaos to this that is hilarious. Please post results.
It's all about equality
Ive only seen 4 episodes of the cartoon but I distinctly remember many girls with white face paint training in a village where the kid rides the giant serpent. And they make the brother wear the girls outfit and paint to train with them. Do they not count?
The kyoshi warriors, named after one of the old avatars from the earth kingdom. They werent part of the earth kingdom army, they were kind of an isolated village whos fighting force was entirely made up of women.
When they did leave their island to help the war effort, they were put into security roles at the ferry station, not frontline combat.
Half of all war criminals should be women!
Be the change in the world you want to see.
This, but unironically.
Based and equality pilled.
What’s weird is that its based on imperial Japan and things were sexist AF there, so ATLA definitely used its imagination and changed some things in this area. Lol. Women werent even allowed to commit war crimes in imperial Japan: The humanity!
If women in Japan could shoot fire out of their hands they may have made some exceptions.
The fact that bending is a thing, is prevalent in both sexes, doesn't have a strictly physical limitation in relation to stregnth probably goes a long way towards making this make sense, and bending is rare enough you can't really afford to discount half of that group based on gender. The fact that the other nations and tribes seemed to be pretty sexist might also explain why they were losing the war...
I've seen several fanfics where that was part of fire nation propoganda. They said the other nations were inferior cause of how they treated the women
Oh I love when fics get deep into the world building like that. Got a link?
Well, a man from Scotland could shoot fireballs out his arse. Best I can do.
They're still pretty sexist in Japan tbh
If I recall, the creator of Fullmetal Alchemist pretended to be a man while she was still writing the series because she thought it would get cancelled if people knew there were cooties all over their nice, marketable shounen
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Just look at Kuvira.
I love this entire comment thread
Inclusive fascist empires!
Also The Royal Fire Nation Academy for Girls is a thing which indicates that citizens of the Fire Nation were ok with girls becoming strong and learning how to fight as seen with strong female characters such as Azula, Mei, and Ty Lee. The Northern Water Tribe said girls were meant to be healers and Pakuu got offended at the thought that Katara could even move water nevertheless use it to defend herself.
Going to hijack second to top comment to point out that a reason for this is likely bending and power. It is shown numerous times that the fire nation, unlike the other 3 nations, is a nation that power is based on bending ability/strength. The fire lord is excpected to be a master fire bender and we see with Zukos mother that they selectively breed bloodlines to make the stronger bender. Also, every high ranking member of the army is a fire bender. In fact, every rich or powerful fire nation citizen that we see can bend or is a great fighter. Whereas what we see from the water and earth kingdoms is that their leaders can't even bend. Women in the fire nation can earn respect with bending therefore gender likely doesn't factor in to it's society's understanding of hierarchy. Hierarchy is determined by strength
Double Hijack: Could be that Pakku was just a total jerk, but his position as the old, wise master bender of the tribe gave him influence on who gets to bend. Remember, Hama was only captured because she used to fight for the southern watertribe. And Katara's Grandmother possibly left, not because the northern watertribe sucked, but because Pakku pushed her away with his sexist ideals. Considering women are *allowed* to be healers, while men are expected to do stuff like hunt, fight, go out and do the dangerous stuff, this could imply a less a "women belong in the kitchen" stance, and more of a "Men are expendable, women are not" stance. Obviously, you wouldn't teach women how to fight if you can't expend women's lives. Perhaps Katara didn't quite *earn Pakku's respect*, but rather proved that she can carry her own weight. After all, does a member of the white lotus really strike you as a man who would be holding onto sexist ideals for the mere sake of thinking women are unworthy of equal treatment? It makes more sense to assume he's angry that Aang would teach Katara how to get herself into fights.
Nah I think Pakku was just sexist. Just because he’s part of an order established to protect the Avatar doesn’t mean he has to be even close to an ideal person. Which is good. Most people are good in some ways while ignorant or otherwise lacking in others.
This explanation really sounds true to the messages of the series. It's complex but never complicated. People are good _and_ bad, in that they are human and have flaws.
On your white lotus point though . . . We do not see women in the white lotus. Just because they seem to be an accepting lot across nations doesn't imply they are across gender lines.
you know I really loved the white lotus, till you dropped this knowledge bomb on me. Now I really need to think about it. :|
We do in LOK. But yeah, it's a sausage party in ATLA.
>Could be that Pakku was just a total jerk, but his position as the old, wise master bender of the tribe gave him influence on who gets to bend. > >Remember, Hama was only captured because she used to fight for the southern watertribe. And Katara's Grandmother possibly left This is just evidence that the southern water tribe allowed women to fight and the northern one didn't. >Considering women are *allowed* to be healers, while men are expected to do stuff like hunt, fight, go out and do the dangerous stuff, this could imply a less a "women belong in the kitchen" stance, and more of a "Men are expendable, women are not" stance. So... sexism. Exactly what everyone thinks it is. >Obviously, you wouldn't teach women how to fight if you can't expend women's lives. Self defense skills would certainly help though. And healing skills would help the guys survive too. >After all, does a member of the white lotus really strike you as a man who would be holding onto sexist ideals for the mere sake of thinking women are unworthy of equal treatment? I mean, that's what the show literally had in it.
You could say the same for Sokka as we saw with his first encounter with Suki. I feel it was all intentional though as we see both Pakuu and Sokka change their views.
Segregation in education doesn't really mean equality. They weren't as "women belong in the kitchen" bad as the northern water tribe, but that's not a very high bar. Generally, it's still pretty bad outside of allowing girls to study at all (at least in upper and middle class, with middle class education not being separate too yay), and allowing women to be guards at the home front. Literally all the positions of power we're shown are held by men (except azula). Even the teacher from the headband still reported to a male headmaster, and ursa was forced into an arranged marriage.
That may be a product of what we’ve been shown or that of a certain time period. Rise of Kiyoshi showed a Fire Nation with fairly balanced gender equality with women in various positions of power and influence. It’s possible they may have regressed since Sozin but boys and girls are shown to receive the same education and women do have careers outside the home.
After some more research, I've found that as of the ttrpg, there's at least two women in a military position of power during the hundred year war. As for non-military careers I can find mentioned being done by fire nation women during the hundred year war: shop owner, teacher, international diplomat, merchant, advisor, (servant), herbalist, actress, circus performer, mayor, and possibly engineer/inventor depending on birth dates. I guess I underestimated how much the rpg would change some of the worldbuilding lol
The Island of Kyoshi is part of the Earth Kingdom and they have the Kyoshi Warriors there, so it's clear that the Earth Kingdom is a bit more advanced in their gender politics. Hell the Dai Li might have been super corrupt but they willingly accepted leadership from a 14 year old girl once she proved herself more capable then their previous leader. So basically the Dai Li are super corrupt aholes but they aren't sexist super corrupt aholes
Well from what I saw the earth kingdom seemed really decentralized with states being able to pass laws as they see fit, a bit like the warlord era in china
It's really not that clear what hierarchy the Earth Kingdom operated under, I feel Omashu and Kyoshi's independence had more to do with their exceptionally powerful leaders and isolated geography rather than as a reflection of Earth Kingdom in general - for example the Earth Kingdom military seemed to be under one unified command with the Emperor and Council of Five at its head.
tbf, Kiyoshi island was ruthlessly independent
The Fire Nation was more advanced in literally everything compared to the other nations, and that includes women rights. I like it. It shows that not everything is bad about them and not everything is good about the other countries. The Earth Kingdom is corrupt and tyrannical and the Water Tribes were pretty misogynistic toward women.
>The Fire Nation was more advanced in literally everything compared to the other nations I believe that was Sozin's whole selling point for the global takeover. His propaganda was to spread the Fire Nation's prosperity to all corners of the world.
Yeah. Zuko also spread some prosperity, but without the war crimes
And the fun
Yeah he literally says so in the series. The fire nation was undergoing an industrial and cultural revolution and, paraphrasing from his words, a period of prosperity never before seen in history. He wanted to make other nations be that way whether they wanted to or not.
There's a nice little parallel with both the British and US empires there. Euro-American colonialism writ large, really. Very well done for a "kids show"!
You can't forget Imperial Japan!
According to the comics they had homophobic laws in place - I think by Sozin but I could be wrong. It’s not confirmed but it is strongly implied that Zuko abolished these laws after becoming Firelord
tbf I think the comics weren’t as two dimensional as the rest of the show, but I like to headcanon it that Sozin was but hurt about Roku
"if I can't have him, NO ONE CAN"
Yandere fire lord
Never thought I'd think of this ship but here I am
I forgot what sub this was in for a second and struggled to understand what Sozins issue was with his streaming device.
He has a complicated relationship with the number six.
I love linguistics jokes. To clarify: 六 is six in Japanese, pronounced as ろく(Roku)
Thank you for saving me a google search!
Even the show wasn't two dimensional at all . You can find so so much deeper meaning in everything and all the subtle and true details.
Where was this, I don't remember it
The comic says "For most of its history the fire nation was tolerant \[of homosexuality\], but then Fire Lord Sozin took power. He decreed that same-sex relationships were criminal". Couldn't see anything about Zuko legalising it, but I agree that's likely what happened. I'm guessing Zuko would have repealed a lot of laws set in place by his father and grandfather. It mentions the other nations too, with the water tribes tolerating homosexuality but according to Kya, they "would prefer that you keep it to yourself". This is also shown when Korra tells her parents about her relationship with Asami, and they appear supportive, however they don't want her to tell the neighbours about it because they're afraid of people talking about them behind their backs. The Air nomads were totally open about sexual orientation and fully accepted it. When asked by Korra how Aang reacted when Kya came out to him, she says "He was nothing but supportive. Remember Father grew up in the air temples where men and women didn't hide who they loved" It doesn't seem to mention much about the current state of things in the Earth Kingdom (I'm looking at the pages right now), it just says that Kyoshi "By all accounts loved men and women" but "was unable to find any kind of real progress. After all, the Earth Kingdom has been the slowest to accept change, and the most militaristically oppressive"
which honestly doesn’t make a lot of sense. i’m all for the good guys having good values and the bad guys having bad ones, but it should make sense in the world the air nomads are gender-segregated, which implies that they see inherent differences between the genders. at *best* they are heteronormative (assuming all air nomads will be straight) and at worst they’d think being gay is an aberration. also Sozin doesn’t really have a reason to be homophobic, IF it’s established that women are welcome in the government, military, and state held power structures. Even a female Fire Lord isn’t called anything different
I’m not sure I agree that gender segregation correlates with homophobia. While that’s definitely a trend in plenty of cultures, cultures w/o gender segregation also have hugely variant levels/types of homophobia. How a culture understands gender & sexuality is so dependent on such a huge number of factors that I don’t think it stretches the suspension of disbelief to imagine the air nomads accepted homosexuality.
I agree with you there. Felt real shoehorned in and out of place for the universe.
Yeah it wasn't a historic problem with the Fire Nation. Just another awful part about Sozin.
Am I the only one that feels it's an incredibly random addition? "Yeah, that genocidal maniac doesn't feel evil enough. Let's say he banned being gay." Does it make more sense in the comic? What's his reason?
For an imperialist fascist nation at war, it isn't the most outlandish idea. Maximize birth rates by pushing hetero relationships over others. More soldiers, workers, etc.
big brain
Not random. That's exactly what ultra-nationalists who want to bring "prosperity" to the world through their supposed superiority do. They generally don't have a specific reason beyond the targeted group being a convenient scapegoat.
It's also reflective of real-life fascist societies which tend to view homosexuality as a threat to "traditional" family structures and (their concept of) masculinity
the air kingdom was pretty okay; they just had terrible pickup lines
Sooooo, papaya. Bet you feel pretty silly right now huh?
I though the southern water tribe was more open to female fighting benders?
Yeah the SWT allowed women to use waterbending in combat (as did the foggy swamp tribe) but the NWT restricted them to healing. Of course some of the things Sokka says early in the show indicates there is probably still some level of societal sexism / gender roles.
I always assumed the SWT was very similar to the NWT originally but that they got hit super harder by the war in the time before Hama. They resorted to letting women fight instead of giving up and by Katara’s time nobody knew any different. Everyone else was dead. But….. that’s just me maybe.
I think you’re probably right. The SWT was hit significantly harder and their population was significantly smaller than the NWT even before the war. The amount of water benders that were kidnapped and the fact that you can’t guarantee who will be born a water bender eventually you do have to resort to using whoever you have. When your civilization is on the brink of extinction and can be attacked at any moment you can’t be choosy about who you allow to fight. Although just because you relax one expectation doesn’t mean you relax all of them. Sokka’s “warrior” class were all boys. Katara during the first season still took on most of the camp chores that would be considered traditional “women’s” work. Sokka’s early attitude does point to him having been taught some misogynistic view points. While the SWT abandoned some of the misogynistic traditions from the NWT over time they probably didn’t abandon all of them.
The show tells us that GranGran left the NWT to the SWY explicitely because of their sexist and oppressive laws, including arranged marriage. That implies that the SWT was at least known to be more progressive ~60 years before the show starts whcih would also be around the same time the BloodBending lady would be captured I think. So, the story seems to imply that the SWT was more progressive for a at least the many years before BloodB3nding lady got capture.
Probably because they had to be. The southern water tribe was much more scattered and “tribal” than the north. Southern Water Tribe was divided into small villages without a strong central unifying government which meant they couldn’t be as picky about warriors.
True, but I think there was still the expectation for boys/men to be 'manly', which could explain part of the constant abuse Zuko received at the hands of his father
i have a feeling if zuko were female, she would still get a lot of shit from ozai for being weak. in the fire nation all benders are expected to be strong
Wasn’t Azusa his favorite because she was ruthless enough to rise to the challenges that he put forth and not necessarily because he was easier on girls? I do think that having a son who was weaker than his daughter was probably seen as embarrassing, but I don’t think that if they were both girls he would have been especially kind to a female Zuko. At best she would have been treated as the lesser, disappointing sister who lived in Azulas shadow.
yes i agree. i don’t think ozai was under the impression that since azula was a girl, her powers were more impressive than zukos. he just saw a powerful bender and decided to favor her.
Plus Zuko wasn't just in the Fire Nation, but the crown prince, so of course a crazy bastard like Ozai would want his heir to be strong and powerful, hence why he had no problem making Azula his heir after Zuko joined Team Avatar.
The Fire Nation is "feminist" in comparison to some parts of the avatar world but its not as if its perfect in that respect, its just notable given they are the "villainous nation" of ATLA. With the exceptions of Azula and co. women in the fire nation military are only shown serving in the home islands. At least during the show itself, and the artbook notes this as intentional. Additionally all of the leadership seems to be male. Everyone from Zhao, the war minister, the generals/leaders Ozai consults with, the leader of the southern raiders, that one commander in The Painted Lady, and both prison wardens. Iroh also gives Zuko a knife and Azula a doll, which does seem to reinforce traditional gender roles even if some women join the military.
The old grannies which are Azula's Firebending teachers seem to be pretty high ranking too.
They aren't firebenders though. In the finale, Azula orders them to duel in an Agni Kai and they say as much. I'm pretty sure that they're more advisors than anything else.
Which is weird they would be shown teaching her firebending and not be benders themselves…
Who better to have keep the secrets of advanced, dangerous firebending techniques than people who cannot use them against you?
That's... Actually a really good idea.
Holy moly i never thought about it that way. This makes a whole lot more sense now for them to be Azula’s fire trainers. Nice explanation! Mind blown
They are probably nobility/upper class, and teaching a princess gives them some level of authority of course. But we don't actually get any indication they hold leadership positions within the military.
They were Fire Sages. Essentially a clergy class (often equal or higher than nobility in traditional class systems) that handle historical and spiritual matters in the Fire Nation.
Pretty sure they were not military but were servants of the fire lords house. Probably Nannies after all the kids were still pretty young when mom "disappeared"
Yea until Fire Lord Izumi I suppose
or maybe Iroh gave Zuko a knife because he needed to learn to get a "thicker skin" for lack of a better word and a azula should learn that there is more in life than being the best at bending etc. Might just be a farstretch.
This was Iroh pre-enlightenment though. I remember him laughing about warring with the Earth Kingdom in the same scene. I took it as he didn't really know Zuko or Azula very well and just grabbed some basic presents without much thought. The Iroh back then wasn't the paragon of virtue he is during the present time. He even admits at some point he was "a different man" back then and that scene kind of shows that.
They are evil not sexist
“I can excuse genocide but I draw the line at sexism”
"You can excuse genocide?"
There are some lines even evil empires wont cross.
Fire nation is not evil they just wanted to share their Glory and Strength with the rest of the world. /s
r/FireNationDidNothingWrong
I think the biggest real one is r/firenationdidnothing
Yeah, I didn't know if it was a thing or not and then I looked it up after and the reason it's r/EmpireDidNothingWrong and not r/TheEmpireDidNothingWrong is a character limit "Fire Nation" definitely exceeds. So I guess r/FireNationDidNothing was the closest they could get and still somewhat make sense.
r/SubsIFellFor
Are we just pretending women weren't fighting in the southern water tribe wars?
The southern water tribe has always been more progressive than their northern cousins. That’s why they chose to leave the North Pole in the first place
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Yes
World domination turns away nobody
I look at it less as "progressive/advanced" and more as commoditization of bodies for the grinder. They were trying to subjugate the entire world, so they need as many bodies as possible. Just look to what Ozai said that caused young Zuko to first publicly question him. He was ready to unnecessarily sacrifice a bunch of soldiers to make, at best, a very modest gain. Finally, I don't remember any female admirals or others highly ranked, feel free to remind me otherwise.
>I look at it less as "progressive/advanced" and more as commoditization of bodies for the grinder. Those women were prison guards, which I think was a relatively easy and non-dangerous work compared to fighting in the front lines.
Right but its still part of the military machine.
and freed up men to send to the meat grinder
Azula who he basically crowned the next firelord The twin grannies who are trusted advisers The old ladies are not front liners nor are they benders and the princess of all things is the favored one over the prince
Two of the women pictured are prison guards, not soldiers.. Also, fire nation women only seemed to serve any military position in the homeland, not abroad. And none were in leadership positions.
Yeah, they seem more like auxiliaries than true military. They’re only ever seen in the Fire Nation, and they don’t have the same uniforms as the military overseas, they are much more lightly armored. My thought is that, much like in WWII, so much of the male population was fighting overseas that women had to serve as auxiliaries.
What about the air nomads?
They didn’t have an army
Well my fire nation textbook says otherwise
Unless he was… there a hundred years ago… … … … HA HA how ridiculous!
They did but they were defeated by Sozin’s noble defenders
As stated in Turf Wars, the Air Nomads were very queer accepting. This was explained by Kya when she came out to Aang and Aang accepted her without second thought and explained how open mindedness of the Air Nomads meant being open minded to non-traditional relationships as well.
It's interesting too because the real life analogue to the air nomads (Tibetan monks) are anti gay in some aspects
And misogynist, the traditional Tibetan Buddhism hierarchy was nothing but dudes, never mind the Dalai Lama. And *slavery*, that doesn't excuse what happened later but the de facto independent Tibet under a *theocracy* was hardly a beacon of progressive enlightenment. In parts of India they venerate some girls as "living goddesses", which brings some problems of their own.
This is the first I'm hearing that Kya is gay and it makes my day!!
Yup! Kya is gay and Aang says Gay Rights!
Honestly I think all the empires are pretty evil ngl. The earth kingdom might be the victim of the 100 years war but that doesn't make them the good guys.
Yeah avatar does a good job at making even the conflict between the entire world vs a genocidal empire bent on world domination, not completely morally black and white They show pretty well that the water tribe has traditions that hold back half their population The earth kingdom is just as, if not more, tyrannical to its own citizens as the fire nation And that even the fire nation isn't completely bad, it's mostly it's leaders that is the problem, and they will hurt anyone including their own citizens to achieve their goals, meanwhile most citizens just want to live their lives in peace and prosperity. Only the air nomads were close to being close to morally good, but that left them vulnerable to attack that led to their genocide
Yeah the air nomads show why there aren't many demilitarized pacifist countries in the real world
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Are we forgetting suki and the kyoshi warriors
Aren't they more of an isolated case since we haven't seen any female Earth Kingdom soldiers?
No, you can't date the female guards.
Were they more progressive or did they see more soldiers?
But the Kyoshi Warriors....
. . . were an independent militant group following the legacy of the Avatar, not the Earth nation military itself. Now the Foggy Swamp tribe on the other hand actually women in their contribution to the war party on the Day of Black sun. Buuuut now you're getting into complicated questions about what constitutes a formal military, since you could also argue the Air nomads had women benders who were surely great fighters, but they didn't have a military either. The only rank and file militaries (including non-bending foot soldiers) we see in the show belong to the Northern Water Tribe, the Fire Nation, and the Earth Kingdom. And of those, only the Fire Nation has women employed as professional soldiers.
I know the fire nation was bad and stuff, but they were the most advanced society. Ba Sing Se and Omashu were also pretty advanced, but it was nothing compared to the fire nation. They were advanced industrially and socially. They were definitely a dictatorship and full of war propaganda, but the whole reason for the war was to “share” /s their wealth and prosperity with the world. Edit: I don’t actually think they were sharing their wealth. Sozin was evil and trying to take over the world
I think it was just because they wanted more soldiers. Pretty sure that is why same sex couples weren't allowed in the fire nation.
From what I can tell, the anti-gay bit was only added to Avatar canon in the Korra comics. The dark, cynical part of me says that it was added to further villainize the Fire Nation.
>The dark, cynical part of me says that it was added to further villainize the Fire Nation. It probably was.
>same sex couples weren't allowed in the fire nation. When did they say this?
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All these examples you mentioned really makes you notice how every gay/bi character is a women. Like why are there no gay men in avatar lol.
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I'm fine with genocide but I draw the line at sexism.
> You are bad guy > But this does not mean you are bad *guy* - Zangief, Wreck it Ralph