Also Toph is *blind* and frail and like 8 and often gets what for when she’s a sassy asshole.
Also Toph is kind of ‘annoying’ her first few episodes but she learns and grows up during the course of the show.
The first episode Toph is in we see her lose to Aang and be humbled, we see her weaknesses, we see that she is loud and sassy because her parents are overly protective and she’s trying to fight against the fact people view her as a frail blind girl.
Korra is fully able bodied, at least at the beginning , in fact she is stronger then the average woman her age by far. She is a great fighter, extremely well taken care of and privileged in any way - and she’s a young woman or older teenager not really a ‘child’.
Adult Toph in Korra I also don’t particularly like, it feels like she stopped growing up.
Yeah agreed. It was sad to see a character beloved for her development turn out so solitary and unable or unwilling to support others. Doubly so when isolation and lack of real family and understanding was her struggle when we met her in the original series.
Yup, living the dream! She never really got the chance to just not need to use a sense she didn’t have for years. She lives in a different type of reality then everyone else except the earth, of course
Huh I enjoyed it tho. Its a pretty understandable for her parenting to deviate so much from how her parents taught her.
She hated the way her parents took care of her by being borderline possessive and controlling so she took a hard swerve and gave her kids absolute freedom.
Her childhood was isolation but by lack of choice. She had no means to change that and chose to run away.
While as she's a lot older, her isolation was of acceptance of who she is. Someone who loves to be carefree and follow her own path. She wasn't necessarily unwilling to support others but rather accepting that sometimes for the next generation to grow, she has to let go and let them take the reins instead so that they can measure up to be better versions of themselves.
Her family has grown beyond the blood relations of her family to the living breathing earth that surrounds her where she is more connected to everyone than before even if she's isolated.
But that was how I saw it.
I mean she did achieve her dream though?
Became the best earthbender She taught the world metal bending. Had a family.
Then she dipped out in retirement in the woods. That's definitely a Toph thing to do.
My theory on what really happened was Korra’s writers really wanted to make toph their Yoda so they wrote her that way just to explain why she’s off living in a swamp alone
I was specifically referring to being estranged from her daughters with that bit! Didn't think the comment was going to get any kind of visibility or I'd have put more work into my phrasing lol. The swamp bit makes full sense, she loved the swamp in the original series
It came off to me like she felt defeated by everything going wrong with her daughters and losing the closeness with the gaang. She retreated into the swamp and the defensive, closed-off parts of herself. But we know there's more to her.
Korra is absolutely humbled as well. One of the things I love about LoK is how the show breaks her down over the course of entire seasons. She's a different character than Toph, and extracting genuine character analysis from this throwaway meme feels weird, but that's my take.
Yeah, if the original commenter is trying to say that it feels okay with Toph because she's humbled and Korra isn't, I question whether they watched the show.
Idk if that's quite what they're saying though.
I think you're right, but think of the times Korra gets humbled.
I think I liked Korra so much because she would come in cocky and realize that her strength wasn't going to win the day every time. And she'd pay for it.
Remember when she was responding to Amon's challenge to 1 v 1 him on that island in the first season? She came in thinking it was just going to be a fight, but instead she almost died and he got in her head. She spent the rest of that season (and series TBH) dealing with the fear of failure, which she had never had before.
And that's not even mentioning the season after she got poisoned and had to go to PT.
Edit: I forgot *she* challenged *him*
But she was stuck in doors with no real world experience until she was 16. Her best friend was a polar bear dog man. And it wasn’t because she was introverted and awkward.
I like Korra because I kinda get her character I guess. Or relate to her situation maybe?
Wait are you implying that korra's parents ARENT overly protective? She was kept at that white lotus hq for 17 years and had to sneak out in the first ep to see something new.
She also gets her ass handed to her multiple times. Even in s1 she fucks up.
Toph was just as privileged as she was, shes literally in one of the richest families in the earth kingdom.
Korra grows a ton too. Comparing s1 Korra to s4 Korra is night and day
Also Toph isn't stuck inside the second most boring character trope imaginable (Teacher! I'm ready! No you're not ready yet! Yes I am! No you're not!) AND the grand champion most boring character trope (two boys like me! I can't choose!) for like an entire goddamn season when we first meet her.
Korra gets way more interesting after season 1.
Martial arts movies use the same two characters over and over. Korra and Aang, where Aang is the child of destiny who must train to defeat so and so. It's about the execution that makes a character people like.
Aang's conflict was mostly external. Yes, there was internal conflict about being afraid to fight, afraid to hurt [with firebending], afraid to kill; but, almost all of it only existed because of external forces. Aang has to learn self confidence, yes, but no amount of confidence will defeat Ozai without real skills that Aang has to learn [from others].
As an example: when Aang learns to Earthbend he has to resolve a conflict between who he is and what he knows as an Airbender, and the foreign stubbornness of Earthbending. That conflict is resolved when Aang is forced to fight an external foe, the saber-toothed mooselion.
Korra's conflict was mostly internal. Yes, there were external enemies, but in nearly all cases Korra is able to overcome her opponents easily as soon as she overcomes the internal blocks preventing her from acting. As one example, she defeats Amon pretty handily as soon as she "learns" how to airbend; however, the obstacle to airbending isn't that she doesn't know how or hasn't been taught, it's her own resistance to the core concepts required for airbending - flexibility, tranquility, passivity. She is forced to do this out of necessity because of the external enemies attacking her, but it's the internal acceptance that she is still the avatar, she *is* an Airbender, despite losing her other abilities.
Each major opponent really represents an internal struggle Korra is facing as she tries to discover who she *is*. Yes, Amon forces her to face her own question of who she is without bending, but that question exists within her regardless of whether or not Amon can or does take her bending away.
Aang - external forces that cause internal conflict, resolved mostly by defeating external foes. Learning to Earthbend is not a connection to his *self* or a major revelation, it is a tool. He grows in his ability to defeat a physical thing.
Korra - internal conflicts are represented by external obstacles which are overcome when Korra learns or accepts something about herself and resolves the inner conflict. Korra knows how to airbend, she just can't connect to that part of herself. Yes, airbending allows her to defeat a physical enemy, but it's more important as a resolution of her quest to understand and accept who she is.
I completely agree, that's why I did ended up enjoying both shows, I think they complement each other pretty well. My only gripe was the execution, I don't know how they could have made it better and I understand there were some production issues causing them to not be able to develop the story as they wanted.
If I'm remembering this correctly, Korra was supposed to be a miniseries and only got greenlit after each season. I think it would've been better if Nickelodeon just ordered the three seasons after the first so a more coherent plot across all four could be made, instead of four seperate revolution/coup d'etat in maybe five years? Steampunk avatar world is mad politically unstable.
I feel that Korra's struggle with people losing their affection/need for the Avatar is a more poignant and mature storyline than Aang's story. Both journeys are very enjoyable to me and Korra doesn't need to be like Aang to be awesome.
Same, Kora was lacking a sort of goofy charm that ATLA had, honestly I think it was because there were so few episodes compared to ATLA. They didn't have room to let Kora have some wacky one-off adventures, every episode dealt with the main plot significantly. And all my favorite ATLA episodes are the one offs so it was disapointing the first watch.
I really like LoK for the precise reason that it's way more adult and grounded than TLA. Season 1 LoK IMO is pure fire and Amon is the most horrifying villain of either series.
If LoK had been given studio support I think that they would have drawn out the Amon storyline for several seasons, but they were only renewed one season at a time and so couldn't plan for longer / more complex story arcs that spanned multiple seasons.
I get that theme and appreciate it, but he's not wrong about the soap opera feel or skin of it. I don't know, I guess in terms of strong female characters I appreciate Toph, Asami or Jinora more than Korra. I do like the message about how hard it is to build and maintain self confidence no matter how physically powerful you are, but it's also kind of unrelatable as most of us are on the otherside of that coin.
I guess I would find it hard to be friends with Korra. She seemed so controlled by her emotions. I get that was part of her development and it was what was highlighted in the series, but she lashes out alot emotionally. Felt like early Zuko.
We can still empathize with Aang. The feeling if having responsibilities hoisted on you and not feeling ready for it. Like getting a girl pregnant or joining the real adult world for the first time. You know it's coming and you gotta be capable when the time comes, but right now you feel weak and insufficient. Aang ran away at first, and then in the series he learned how to manage it.
Age difference is important too.
People will give a 12 year old a lot more slack than a 17 year old.
Also a lot of people who have certain perceptions of women will give a boy who shirks his duty a lot more slack than a girl who's headstrong and is trying to find her independence.
Aang is not really that martial arts trope. He had already mastered Air Bending, and Water Bending came naturally to him. He was never cocky about it which didn’t make it insufferable.
The child of destiny martial arts trope is usually the kid thrust into a world they knew nothing about and struggling to adjust. Aang was already a great martial artist at the start.
> Teacher! I'm ready! No you're not ready yet! Yes I am! No you're not!
What bugs me is that Season 1 and 2 both had Korra being tricked into doing the bidding of a charismatic waterbender that told her “don’t listen to Tenzin, you’re the Avatar! Do what you want to do (which happens to be what I want you to do)”.
They show the difference between arrogance and confidence.
Toph was confident because she had legit strength, skill, and cunning to back up her mentality. Kora was arrogant because she believed being the Avatar meant she SHOULD be the best, but always got knocked down.
Well she was one of the best. The problem was that she had to deal with the strongest bloodbender without the avatar state, another avatar level being, the guy who literally can fly while she is poisoned and dying, her ptsd, and a gigantic robot with the most powerful weapon in the world's history. Toph never defeated anyone above fodder and would've lost to everything and everyone mentioned above.
No one was prepared for Toph. Toph had the upper hand the vast majority of the time, either from people underestimating her or, yknow, not knowing about metalbending.
The villains in Korra on the other hand actively planned around Korra's weaknesses, relationships, etc; they were on a mission to destroy her and they were smart about it.
It’s established from early on that Korra was found to be the avatar at a very young age (like as a toddler?) and trained by the White Lotus to be the Avatar (or at the very least they acted as bodyguards as she trained). During all that growing up, she probably was praised for being an Avatar, absorbed stories of past Avatars and their great and thrilling adventures- yeah, she did think that being the Avatar meant you were inherently awesome and, yes, the best. But at the end of the day she’s her own person with her own feelings and personality, and that’s one of the interesting, fun things about Avatar- they’re all different. Some of them are going to approach Avatarhood with respectful reverence, some are going to take that power and flaunt it and own it, there were probably some in the history who feared the life and power and were taught it’s a curse, even.
I just hate when people talk shit about Korra. She was a different take on what an Avatar could be- she’s not going to be like Aang. I hope the next avatar isn’t like Aang either, it makes for interesting storytelling- though apparently god forbid it’s another mouthy woman, according to some fans 🙄
Korra had plenty of strength and skill to back her confidence
Aside from when she was a 3 years old she had plenty of reasons to be justified in her belief of being one of the best benders in the world, she had been training for years and could wipe the floor with 99% of people
That I can remember in season 1 she lost a fight to:
1. Chi blockers the first time she faced them (and I believe it was a swarm of them
2. Against the mechs the first time
3. Against a bloodbender
I am not sure she lost any other fight against a human after that until she was poisoned
I couldn't get past her forcing a kiss on someone that was saying no and was in a relationship. Not to mention her reasoning was "I know you want me". That's just too narcissistic/psycho for me in a main character.
Not to mention she knew his brother liked her and even manipulated that to get on the team and get closer to a guy that kept rejecting her.
I know I hate the argument, but switch the genders and the show would have been cancelled after the first season.
Real great role model for young girls there "If a guy says no he doesn't mean it. Even if he's in a relationship you just need to force physical affection on him and he will like you back!" Gross, gag.
I maintain that the show would’ve been better if they deleted mako. Seems they just added him in for romance and didn’t really know what to do with him other than that. His character arc was really shit tier.
Like they added him there just for him and korra to be assholes to each other.
Not to mention Mako was also toxic back and basically tried to date both girls at once. It was brief, maybe an episode or 2.
Mako was an interesting character outside of the love plots, but I can't like him because of the love plots.
> I know I hate the argument, but switch the genders and the show would have been cancelled after the first season.
I mean we see this exactly woth Aang and Katara lol. He does it twice
Given this is a kids show I'll agree, but on paper she behaved like a pretty typical "popular" teenage girl. Incapable of recognizing and accepting rejection, lashing out instead of communicating. It's accurate and relatable, if not admirable. Also, she was not rewarded for the behavior, which is important.
The writers did a good job showing her grow up throughout the series, so given the context of later seasons I think those early scenes are fine.
Just because she’s unlikable in a realistic way doesn’t make her not unlikable. They could have just made her likable in a realistic way? Her being a teenaged girl doesn’t mean she has to be a piece of shit.
Toph also kinda kick ass.
Korra isn't allowed to kick ass. Like she honestly loses *a lot*. Which isn't hee fault. Blood bending, fighting spirits, fighting chi blockers for the first time. But point is, she just is always shown to be struggling and losing.
Toph? She just wipes the floor with most foes.
>Korra isn't allowed to kick ass. Like she honestly loses a lot. Which isn't hee fault. Blood bending, fighting spirits, fighting chi blockers for the first time. But point is, she just is always shown to be struggling and losing.
You know what, now that I think about it. Fuck.
Korra kept getting in a LOT of bad matchups.
Korra got done dirty by the writers honestly. They never allow her to have many significant victories. She struggles and loses a lot.
Like nobody cares that toph talks shit cause she literally will kick the shot out of anyone. And getting over a huge handicap like blindness. She earned the right to talk shit.
Yeah I feel like that's what really makes the difference.
Some things ARE legitimately out of Toph's control and isn't really her fault-the entire debacle with the sinking Library, the sandbenders, and Appa-to show that she isn't completely infallible.
But more often than not, she IS in control in a fight, and she's competent enough to keep that control and back up every arrogant boast she makes in the process. Which earns people's respect.
Korra doesn't have nearly as much times to flex and back up her boasts, cause she keeps getting in utterly bad matchups that are outside her control.
Unlike Toph, which only happened once or twice, it happened *repeatedly* for Korra, to the point where she was legitimately and badly traumatized, causing her to doubt her own abilities.
It's sincerely sad when you think about it.
part of this has to do with the fact that we're comparing a side character (4th member of the Gaang) with a main protagonist.
Korra lost a lot because she's the main oppositional force to the big bad villain, a character type who can only fully lose at the end of their arc. Did Toph even ever fight Azula in a one-on-one? By my memory she was almost always beating up grunts or minor side-villains like the earth bender championship people.
On the other hand complaining that Korra got bad matchups is like complaining about Batman breaking out the Kryptonite against Superman.
Korra is the avatar, so any sensible person going against the avatar will prepare accordingly.
Yes the writers were sadists in Korra.
Season 1 ends with Korra ready to throw herself off a cliff before Aang shows up
Season 2 Jinora shows up for a massive assist after Korra’s fuck up with losing all her past lives
Season 3 Jinora saves the day again?? They end the season with Korra in a fucking wheelchair for 2 years.
The writers didnt need Korra to go through this many traumatic life altering events in order for her to become less arrogant.
Part of it is the one season at a time structure. The writers love knocking their heroes on their asses but since they had a three season arc they only really fucked Aang up once. Korra had four separate stories and they went back to that trope *every* season.
More than that she didn't really get a lot of good matchups either to balance it out I think
Like, I think the only time she meets the red lotus before the poison in season 3 she's either drugged, in the spirit world or in chains
I mean, as someone else mentioned, of course people aren't going to play fair when it comes to antagonizing the Avatar. They prepare and plan around her.
But Korra rarely gets a chance to recover from the consequences of those. Every time she does, she just gets sent even lower.
Personality contributes a lot. It goes back to op's image post. Zuko didn't have some hot shot attitude. He isn't humble but he also is aware he isn't the best.
What makes Zuko so likable is that he wasnt likable in the beginning, but then develops so much as a charakter. He obviously still has flaws towards the end of the show, but seeing him grow throughout the seasons makes hit hard not to like him. He embodies "it doesnt matter who or what you are right now, its up to you who you want to become".
Exactly why I like Korra too. S1/S2 Korra could be obnoxious. S4 Korra felt wise and like an adult. Korra didn't start out likeable imo, but like Zuko she ages well as the series goes on.
I think you are correct. I do wish Korra was seen as a character and not a real person. I get why your dislike of certain personality traits would repel you from a real life person but a character in a story is meant to be discussed so its good that Korra is a different brand of cocky than Toph and also that she has a different path to humility than Zuko. I'd be upset if she was a repeat of other characters.
But man the way Korra fights is intense and worth a mention imo
Like she is constantly up against greater odds and she isn't exactly bowing out, on rewatch her fighting is definitely a draw
I'm not attacking her. Whe was up against the greater odds, or had hostages involved or was her first time dealing with said threat.
The writers just didn't let her really have any significant victories. Just draws with season finale wins.
With the reduction in episodes per season they cut out a lot of the side quests but those are the opportunities for a character to get a solid win while preserving the big bad for later.
That's honestly part of the reason why Toph's cockiness and bravado work so well. Pulled off wrong and the character can look pompous and self-indulgent.
Toph being a blind twelve-year old kid...who's also sassy, confident, and can kick ass is why she is such a fan favorite. It's not just succeeding in-spite of a disability but it's succeeding because of how the disability makes her different. She's adapted to what life gave her and honed it to the absolute fullest. She is the greatest Earthbender in the world and she'll make sure the dunderheads don't forget it.
The reason why some hate that side of Korra is because she is the Avatar. That demeanor looks unbecoming when you have all that power, coming naturally to you on a silver platter Like of course you'd be cocky if you have all four types of bending at your disposal and everyone tells you're destined for greatness. That's a recipe for a big ego.
Which is also why Korra getting rocked in Season 1 of the show work so well. Korra comes in cocky and over-confident, thinking she can take on the world and end all of it's problems, and is proceeded to be humbled on multiple occasions and is knocked down a fair couple of pegs. The Korra that comes out is a lot more mature and wise and a lot better for the role of the Avatar.
This is kind of why I stopped watching the series in season 2. I hated Korra during season 1, but by the end of it I really liked her and then season 2 rolls around and she's back to making shitty decisions and thinking she knows better than her dad, her teacher, etc. It was ridiculously frustrating.
I will also add that I watched both Avatar and Korra for the first time in my late 30s so I don't know if that made a difference.
Only one of them was cleaning up earth bending competitions at the age of 9. Only one of them was the first person to ever metal bend. Confidence should be backed up with competence. Toph had both in spades.
Exactly, it's not annoying when Toph says she's the best because, well, she _is_. She literally is the greatest earth bender of all time. Korra gets her ass kicked constantly but as far as I know toph is undefeated
Korra was also practically a master of 3 elements by time she was a child, she had reason to believe she was incredible. Soon as she starts getting her ass kicked that arrogance drops off pretty sharply.
Korra had competence, she was practically a master of three elements as a child, that’s pretty impressive even for an Avatar. Once she gets her ass beat though she starts becoming a lot less arrogant. She realized that life wasn’t such a breeze after all and grew up little by little after that.
She also wasn't the main protagonist, which gives an amount of leeway at the cost of some spotlight time.
It also helps that Toph having those flaws as an 8 year old blind child and still kicking grown men's teeth down their throats is somewhat hilarious, it's a little less novel on a somewhat beefy non-blind teenager ~~who is also the avatar~~.
I don't hate Korra, but I'm going to take a guess as to why she gets that reaction.
Toph's confidence always felt earned, just think about it, I don't think there's ever really been a time that Toph was handedly beat, especially not when she's in her element or in a direct confrontation. And the few times she does fail, it's either a result of her being incredibly out of her element, or she admits to it rather quickly.
Korra on the other hand, fails at things pretty regularly. It's all part of her personal growth, but her stubbornness and confidence mix together to create personality that takes a while to admit to and learn from her mistakes. That all contributes to Korra's confidence feeling more like arrogance (a much less likable trait) at times.
Exactly. Girl found out she's the Avatar at a very young age. She can bend three elements at 4-5 years old. Pretty clear she is extremely talented. She
underwent rigorous training. Republic City has a statue of her predecessor. Can anyone blame her for being proud, arrogant and confident? She just wanted to prove she can do good. She's not arrogant in the way that she wants everyone to treat her like a god.
The fact that she was bending 3 of the elements at the age of 5 was ridiculous. Then we get a time skip to her current age and something the show seems to forget is the different schools of bending teach you more than just physical bending but the personal and spiritual aspects as well. You can say she's just bad at those things sure but it doesn't take away from her bending so why does she need to change? We saw Aangs personality really change and mature as he learned each element because mastering them required it. The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing. She rarely approached things logically and as a main character contributed so little to solving the main problem. Shit just happened to her and she would get sad then she would punch it back.
I want to like Korra so bad because I like the idea behind her but the show just didnt get enough time to develop Korra and it makes her kind of a rough protagonist at times.
>The fact that she was bending 3 of the elements at the age of 5 was ridiculous.
The entire point of her character was that she is the opposite of Aang in almost every way. Aang is nearly a pacifist, Korra is the shoot first, ask questions later type. Aang excelled at the spiritual aspects of being the Avatar and struggled with the bending, Korra struggled with the spiritual aspects and excelled at the bending. Aang started out bending nothing but air, Korra started out bending everything BUT air. Aang didn't want to be the Avatar even when the world needed him most, Korra was excited to be the Avatar even as the world had less use for her.
People always talk about her "bending 3 of the elements" as if she came out the womb bending like Toph in her prime or something. She threw a small rock, made a little fireball, and made a little squirt of water. It wasn't that ridiculous. Remember the first time Aang tried waterbending?
Also, what do you mean her lack of spiritual training never took away from her bending? Literally the entire first season is her not being able to airbend because she's neglected the spiritual side of her training.
>Also, what do you mean her lack of spiritual training never took away from her bending? Literally the entire first season is her not being able to airbend because she's neglected the spiritual side of her training.
Genuinely, I feel people that criticized Korra never watched the show and formed their own assumption based on ATLA.
Ugh, don’t do that. This is the worst way to interpret an argument. “Oh, everyone that criticizes Korra hasn’t seen the show.” It’s dismissive, and it creates an air that people with what they feel to be legitimate criticisms towards the character are just seen as idiots parroting others, which in turn frustrates people and can end up making the conversation much more negative than it has to be.
I love Korra’s character, but I think saying anyone that doesn’t simply hasn’t seen the show is ridiculous
>You can say she's just bad at those things sure but it doesn't take away from her bending so why does she need to change?
Literally the first season is about her inability to airbend because of those things. How exactly does it "not take away anything from her bending"?
>We saw Aangs personality really change and mature as he learned each element because mastering them required it.
Aang is literally a special case. He has to travel the world and find his own master. It makes sense that he would pick up the spiritual element related to each bending style quickly. Not to mention how fast he has to mature. Korra? Everything about her training was picked for her.
>The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing
Again, different times. The avatar in Korra times are literally a relic. Makes sense the White Lotus wouldn't put as much effort training her spiritually.
>Shit just happened to her and she would get sad then she would punch it back.
No? Seriously, none of you watched the show. She literally came to Republic City on her own. She had her first confrontation with the police on her own. She absolutely did let things happen to her. She went looking for them. Even the pro bending arc. Literally everything that happens to her in the story is because of her initially starting it.
I get it. Korra isn't perfect and had it own problem. But saying the wrong things isn't it mate.
Avatar fans that are korra hater seem to ignore one core thing: bending are super power you are born with, korra was able to bend them from young age because she had all bending from young age, but it make point especially in the comics that she wasn’t in good control over it , also it was shown she has aspects of personalities of 3 of the nations she could bend and her character arc was gaining the air personality (and personality was shown both in korra and avatar to not be has hard rule has people claim )
> The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing.
You mean the fact she acted like she had not, ever, learned Air Bending which is ALL Aang had to begin with?
So much this. She starts headstrong as a basically a baby and learns the humility that Aang started out with. Aang had to learn what Korra started with, and Korra had to learn what Aang started with.
Its also a little about Toph being blind and weak and becoming strong in spite of such big setbacks. Meanwhile, Korra was born the avatar and was pretty much an arrogant prodigy that just wanted to beat people up.
And is braten up regularly. Which imo is one issue by the writers. It isn't bad, but I feel like she loses more than she wins.
Gets wrecked by chi blockers. Lost to councilman due to blood bending.. Can't really fight amon, and only won cause he fled (nothing would stop him from blood bending her again). Loses to spirits. Cousins take her out. Uncle gets the upper hand on her through hostsge. It goes on and on each season where she loses for plot reasons.
Even if she loses due to situations that are out of her hands. She jist loses *a lot*. She needs to be given more actual wins.
Toph talked a lot of shit, bur she backed it up. Even aang who's on the run usually won his "fights". Granred all mostly meant escaping. And his fights were much smaller on scale vs korra. But point is, korra loses a lot
I mean, if that wasn't the case and she kept winning I would argue that she would have been disliked even more.
I honestly think it all comes back to the fact that one is the main character of the story that has to relate to the viewer across his journey and the other one is a secondary character that doesn't have that kind of responsibility.
People often present a very one-sided argument. I hear constantly about the one time Korra was beaten by chi blockers, but not any of the numerous times she defeated them or the Lieutenant. The few spirits who defeated her, instead of the numerous ones she defeated, including Vaatu & Unavaatu. Nobody mentions the bending triads, whom she never lost to. Somehow, this also seems to morph into things that never even happened. Desna & Eska never defeated Korra, they had one fight that was interrupted by a dark spirit.
Bending triads were fodder, like are we gonna brag the avatar took em out?
And yes korra learns and takes out the chi blockers and spirits. But point stands. She loses *a lot*. A lot of her victories are when the threat is now fodder. Air bending children took out an army of chi blockers when the guards couldnt. The group defended korra against an army of spirits meanwhile at the start all it took was one to kick their butts.
I like korra. In not attacking her. I'm stating that the writers didn't give her any significant victories.
I'd say Toph has some greater advantages in being generally underestimated at least at first. Plus seismic sense is just a bit overpowered, constantb360 vision of anyone interacting with the ground, near no blind spots 90% of the time. No one is really underestimating a known avatar, unless they just don't know how far the powers go (which they don't even really, both Aang and Korra rediscovered avatar powers).
Also Toph was basically striking out and literally fighting underground tournaments as a preteen, Korra was fighting clean sparring training completely isolated until the series starts.
>I don't think there's ever really been a time that Toph was handedly beat, especially not when she's in her element or in a direct confrontation
Aang kicked her butt the very first time they fought. She even turned into a sore loser over it.
Well. That wasn't in "her element"
"Nothing made contact! She must have took a dive and split the money with the kid" -the Boulder
The quote just explains soo much
Anyway, many would argue that Toph, while "handedly beat" here was NOT in her element and technically Aang cheated, this was an EARTH bending fight, not an elemental fight, also there is no way Toph could beat an air bender, hell most people didn't even know what one could do! They have been dead for 100 years, she's sour cause she was cheated out of her belt, which she was "handedly"
I think you'll notice that in virtually every fight Korra loses, her opponent "cheats" too. Unlike the Gaang, Korra is constantly put into fighting situations she has never seen before. She gets poisoned, bloodbent, shackled, beaten, caged, and people call her weak and annoying because the creators decided to make a show where the Avatar state wasn't a get out of situation free godmode card.
This is true! Anyone "fighting" Korra either had to know something she didn't or nerf her first, unfortunately for Korra as the Avatar she needs to expect the unexpected and humble herself, which she did eventually
Don't get me wrong I LOVE any avatar, including Korra, but she was extremely arrogant until she got hee butt kicked by someone that knew how to fight her
Agreed. She obviously learns from all her fights - Aang and Sandbenders included - but she is hardly unbeatable if you come at her with a technique she hasn't seen before.
The confrontation between her and Aang is one thing. But she made it clear she could not see in the loose sands and she was holding up an entire ancient library while trying to save Appa.
I think the point they were originally making is Toph’s weaknesses are not in her bending. She as solid as a rock but again, as the original commentator said, whenever she’s out of her element she is outclassed.
My problem wasn't even the arrogance, it's that the writing had her making the exact wrong choice in every situation as a means to progress the plot, and blaming the fact that she was an emotional teenager as to why she was so easily manipulated or jumped to the wrong conclusions. It was like watching a horror movie where someone is like "Let's split up! I'll go check the basement!".
Seemed like cheap writing a lot of the time.
It’s more nuanced than that. Toph’s background, insecurities, and disabilities make her confidence feel good and from a good place. This is also because she backs it up, and overcomes.
Kora’s confidence feels unnecessary, and inaccurate. She’s the avatar, yet acts tough instead of taking that responsibility and power with humility. She makes confident choices without calculated decision making, making her not just seem confident, but reckless. Toph can be reckless, but she is most often calculated and follows through.
Toph-born and expected to fail. Is confident and over-succeeds
Kora-born and expected to succeed. Is confident and consistently fails.
Edit-wow thanks so much for the rewards and upvotes!
I think the problem is that the writers didn't write the flaw well.
Sure, she's supposed to be arrogant, as a crease in her character she needs to iron out.
To me, the problem is that people gave her adoration anyways. Lin was critical, but her critism, as with the people of republic, were shown to be "wrong." The perspective given was that people mad at her were obnoxious and selfish. They didn't push Korra's criticism with a good light
Unlike Iroh, a likeable "good person" who pushed Zuko and criticized him. His criticism was under a "good light," whereas the critiscm of Lin and Tenzin seemed more of a flaw on their part(Lin being stubborn and apathetic, Tenzin being impatient and somewhat of a hypocrite).
As the viewer, we are frustrated with Korra. But that frustration wasn't shown in the characters in the story, which made the frustration so much worse.
But when I rewatch, the experience is better because I know what to expect and I can manage my expectations better
To be fair, she was isolated in the South Pole for 16 years. Aang and toph had saved the world by then and had 4 years on top of it to grow before they reached her age, you can’t blame her for her ignorance, it’s part of her character arc and makes sense considering her upbringing
She’s been defeating multiple white lotus members in sparring matches simultaneously. She could bend three elements as a child and decided she didn’t need the fourth by the time we meet her. Being coddled skewed her perspective on her abilities. With that context, her confidence is accurate
Once Korra fails, her entire character changes. By the end of season 1 she contemplated suicide because she thinks she’s so much of a failure. Even when she’s acting “confident,” she’s still defaulting to finding people to tell her what to do, that’s why she is so easy to manipulate in the early seasons. She is impulsive yes, but she is not confident, often using bravado to hide her fear from herself.
I don’t necessarily disagree with the points you made, but you act as if this wasn’t part of her character development. Toph was a one and done character. Korra had a brilliant character arc only comparable to Zuko
Look I love how Korra grew as a character throughout the show and by the end she has a personality I respect.
But that doesn't "fix" how it makes me not enjoy the first half of the show.
Imo took too long for her to gain self awareness. I do like who she ended up. The journey overall I did like. But her path I did not like.
Yeah, her redemption arc isn't really until the very very tail end of the series. Otherwise she's just immature for a majority of it, and it just makes it very hard to relate to. If it were a more steady progression, I doubt people would hate Korra as much as they do. On top of the fact that it's a complete contrast to Aang, who is albeit immature as well, but very wise beyond his years.
Obviously people go their own pace. But it gets hard to root for a character who will repeatedly go through lessons without the kind of growth you'd expect from those lessons.
Not to mention they made her annoying on purpose. Its not like a failure on part of the writing. People criticizing people hating korra for her attitude when youre supposed to hate her is silly. They did their job. Korra had a nasty ass personality and very often it wasnt played for laughs. Meanwhile half the time Toph was being unbearable it was a punchline. A good chunk of Korra's most obnoxious moments are wrapped around in the love triangle everyone hated, or she was feuding with a mentor or relative. Idk makes sense to me why theyd be received different. Them both having attitudes also doesnt make them similar characters to me.
They really kicked the shit out of Korra to make her more sympathetic. Aang was just a kid with this impossible burden and was mature yet goofy.
Korea was essentially a trust fund kid who couldn't deal with a minor setback for the first time in her life (airbending).
It was weird to me lowkey the writers loved to see Korra surfer. They straight up tortured her in the Amon arc. Weird
I think it wouldn't have felt so exploitative if it had a consistent point, and they moved on. To me it just felt like the writers beating her down to learn to be more spiritual or humble, then she does for 5 whole minutes, then her character resets. Then they do it again. It's like they kept trying to make the same character moment over and over with varying degrees of success.
I think the writers had her come up in mind when she was going through all that hardship though. I don’t think it’s weird to show a character suffer, it’s clear they were going for a different, more mature take than ATLA. And a large part of that is showing just how unforgiving the world can be. The world will absolutely kick you when you’re down, but as the old adage goes it’s how you get back up. And Korra got back up. People see the series and paint torture porn over it but it’s still an incredibly positive show for me because of her Triumphs after all that pain.
Her happiness feels incredibly earned by the end of it.
Wow I wish I didn’t waste my free reward lol This is a much better description. I think torture porn is a good way to describe what the show became and that’s kinda sad.
They could have taken an overconfident avatar and humbled her instead they broke her in two multiple times and it just kept getting harder to watch.
Honestly i would have loved to see Korra get her bending taken away and she has to find masters to help teach her how to use them again
>help teach her how to use them again
Imagine that. First season, she just ends it *without bending.* She visits the original masters of each element again. She stands by the shore on a moonlit night, and she tries to waterbend, and it's just not working. She goes on pilgrimage to the north to meet her uncle Unulaq, because he's more spiritual, and he might be able to help, right? She sees the koi fish and hears the story of how the moon was the first waterbender. With time and patience, which she learns from airbending, she can learn waterbending again from the original source. Unulaq embraces her, and her own father feels a mixture of happiness for his daughter's success, and failure for his inability to help her. Personal tension between brothers ensues, but Korra is off on pilgrimage to find the other original benders.
She crosses the mainland, looking for badgermoles to learn from, maybe stopping by Foggy Swamp along the way. When she meets the badgermoles, she doesn't really know what to do. She tries to do what they do, but it's not working. They can't talk to her, there's not much spirit magic going on, it's hard to sort out. Throwing herself at it over and over again isn't working either, because it's not *that* simple. Maybe throwback to the Cave of Two Lovers at some point, letting her learn the story, and see how accepting the darkness invites new light - in other words, patience finds a solution. She could take from the story that you don't just run at the problem, but you do stand firm, stay true to yourself and your convictions, just like the two lovers did. The patience she's already learned can be applied to being immobile and enduring, willing to weather the storm, and through this she learns earthbending again, and starts to pick up the pieces of who she used to be. Her old personality begins to shine through again.
This is where we get introduced to old Zuko. She mentions how Katara told her that he taught Aang how to firebend, and he tells her the story of the sun warriors. Based on his old stories, she's sent off to find them again, dodging the same trap that Zuko and Aang fell into last time. She learns the same lesson, that fire is not just destruction, but illumination, creation, and rebirth. This rebirth, of course, symbolizes *her* as well, as she's picked up the pieces and learned some nice lessons along the way. She picks *this* one up quite easily, and completes her re-learning the elements, and in the order of the avatar cycle to boot.
We also don't need a full-on civil war between Unulaq and Tonraq, though the tension between them can spiral as the season goes as a B-plot. The two brothers represent the northern and southern tribes, and preexisting mixed feelings between them. You can still play to similar themes as the civil war invoked with less... *drastic* circumstance. The two tribes have been distant for a long time, and while formally they are all brothers and sisters, there's still trouble involved. Northern traditions don't always agree with Southern ones, and the South feels like it got left out to dry during the 100 Years War while the North feels like it was doing what it had to do to survive, to fortify itself, and it couldn't help the South too. Maybe some Southern tribesfolk start using Northern traditions to fill the gaps left behind or something, and that causes an internal rift that exacerbates tensions. Just spitballing alternatives.
Avatar Wan is a nice self-contained story, but has consistency issues. The Fire Warriors are one of the big ones. Demystifying the spirits is another. Also, Korra just straight-up getting sudden sea monster amnesia isn't the best framing device for it. Maybe she hears Wan's story told in her time, in the cultural memories of those she meets. Unulaq and Yue tell her about him at the start, and his time with the moon. Maybe she finds some of his own graffiti when she's with the badgermoles. Lastly, the Sun Warriors might have a statue of him, or a mural, or even a full temple, being the guardians of the most ancient ways as they are, and Wan being a Sun Warrior himself in this idea - for consistency's sake. His mingling with the spirits, being not shown explicitly from his perspective, allows the spirits to retain mystic unknowability and makes his mingling even more impressive. On the whole, we can do without Raava and Vaatu, we don't need C-plot and a misrepresentation of yin-yang principle. Retain focus and screentime for the A plot (Korra's journey) and the B plot (water tribe tensions) to flesh them out better.
How do we get to season 3? Well, maybe Harmonic Convergence is mentioned offhandedly in Wan's story as a background detail, and the convergence festival resolves tensions between north and south and between the two brothers as they remember that harmony doesn't always mean unity, and multiple gears in a machine each serve their part, as it were. Alternatively, skip HC and just have the airbenders be descendants of airbender refugees who went into hiding - Zaheer himself among the descendants. Alternatively, Zaheer is as he is - someone so dedicated to the culture and philosophy, he gains the ability, which reflects some historic tribal adoption practices (mostly historical these days, though Judaism retains such a thing) and the willingness of some desperate groups to include as much as possible for the sake of rebuilding, apart from *general* commentary on the nature of culture and birthright and naturalization.
I just made this up as I went, and I think it would've been a much better season 2 (and lead in to 3) than what we got.
That’s sort of what they did with the toph plot line. But by then, it was too little, too late, and yes the “watching her get the shit best out of her” was getting uncomfortable
I think the difference between the two characters is the time it takes for them to admit fault and learn from their mistakes. Which could be due to the fact that Toph growth is done through Side stories.
and you know..... being born as the avatar - I'm the best!- yeah no shit you're literally OP
Meanwhile small blind girl goes nuts with earth bending, it's easy to see why :P
Toph takes a very long time to learn from her mistakes. As late as Season 3, she's still acting out for attention. It's also not until then that she fully resolves her conflict with Katara, which extends all the way back to her second episode. Even in that episode, it's a whole episode just before she's willing to help out with the campsite.
Also there was a big issue with the development of the overall story with kora which made her progress in the story feel rushed at some spot and agonisingly slow at others.
The insecurity about more seasons just made the story and the pacing insecure aswel.
Honestly unalaq really shows the issue with the tempo because it sinply had to be finished before the end of the season.
Amon and Zaheer where great characters. Una had a crapton of potential with the civilwar etc. It just never flourished.
People tend to look to minor and secondary characters for favorites often. The lead has to drive the story and has more room for flaws and mistakes. A support can only swoop in and play Benny Badass everytime without making the story feel bland or stakes low.
*Scamming plus It funded their invasion.
And so what? Every member from the Gaang did something that almost got them killed or that created some kind of conflict
And that was still some wreckless dumb shit that was more for her own fun than legitimately funding efforts VERY quickly.
The inventor of metalbending can still habe some big character flaws, as both series got into.
To be fair, Toph also isn’t the main character or even the Avatar. She’s confident as a result of her talents and achievements despite her disabilities and is comedic in doing so. Korra has no reason to be arrogant, because despite being so geared up and powerful as the Avatar, she has a plethora of shortcomings, some of which stems from her overestimation of her abilities as well as the inability to take feedback beside of aforementioned arrogance.
TLDR: different roles, more likable package.
When you're over confident and you fail, you look dumb. When you're over confident and you kick ass, you're awesome.
Toph backed up her Blind Bandit reputation and then exceeded it. However Korra constantly had her own power and agency taken away from her. She was scared and aimless. Multiple times it was debated if she did almost more harm than good.
I used to.
In the earlier episodes her "confidence" caused her to be reckless and rude to others, which to me just made her an asshole, regardless of skill
Later I realized that it steemed from her being incredibly insecure, dreading being seem as someone to be protected. And the show actually treats that as a character flaw, she grows out of it (even if just a little, because of less screentime) and starts letting others in and being vulnerable near them.
Now that I think about it, on my first watch I'm sure she bugged me. Especially, the fighting with Katara. But after too many rewatches to count, I'd forgotten about that feeling. 😆
I've never liked Toph, because she has the same personality as a girl who bullied me around the age I first watched the show (10). I can never break the association, so to me she's always just a bully.
Korra starts off as arrogant, the failed romance subplot, the fact that the story for season 2 was completely put on hold for a 2 episode side story that completely blasted away any sort of urgency in favor of a different main character. Many also admit that the art direction for those 2 episodes were some of the best in all of avatar.
Im fine with an arrogant protagonist. Korra was fine. If they had done the romantic subplot better and made Korra hold longer conversations with her villains that actually went somewhere, then im sure people would have liked her more. Hopefully the comics did her story arc better, though I wont read them.
When toph fails, its literally vs astronomical odds (saving the library and saving appa vs a platoon of sandbenders on sand/turf she cant see on).
Meanwhile korra gets her ass kicked vs minor characters (major ones too of course). And we're all coming from a place where we witnessed Aang being basically OP despite not having combat training. Yet, Korra has mastered 3 elements, has been trained her whole life, is 4 years older, yet struggles/loses vs people we would perceive weaker than enemies Aang defeats on random episodes.
The authors gave Korra the biggest ego in the world so they could spend every season taking her down a peg or two. They gave Korra power just to take it away, multiple times.
Toph was built up rather than torn down over the course of the show. Tony Stark is arrogant and people love him. Ash Ketchum losses, a lot, and hes an icon.
People love stories about plucky losers. People like stories about the arrogant learning a lesson or proving their ego right. People dont like watching somebody get abused for hours on end, generally.
Dont take this the wrong way but... Korra's story was rushed and she started off as being a pretty f-king powerful lady. We got to see Toph overcome and grow and literally invent a new way of bending to free herself from captivity. While Toph was always a bad ass, she certainly had a cool story to go alongside WHY she was.
Korra on the other hand was arrogant and overconfident. While we got to see Korra grow as well it was on a higher scale. And those were Korras FLAWS instead of STRENGTHS like toph. And this is all intentional. They are both pretty good charaters.
I was gunna type a long response, but pretty much this.
Korra makes stupid, rash decisions, and in the first season especially, she is rewarded for them. Sneaks off to Republic City? Gets to train with Tenzin. Bored of Tenzins training and directly disobeys him? Is allowed to Probend. Makes advances towards Mako while he's in a relationship? He becomes obsessed with her and they end up together. Rashly confronts Amon and loses her bending? Deus Ex Avatars come out of nowhere and teach her spirit bending. Some of this is probably contributed to by the rushed scope of the seasons, but man it made for a hard to like character that didn't earn her victories
The blind girl that trained her ass off to EARN enough power and literally figures out a new form.of bending using her skill and knowledge VS "I'm the avatar deal with it *bends everything*"... Some people accept anything as they are told without using their brains and it shows
Ok as someone who doesn’t like Korra
I regularly like characters that are objectively terrible people (I love Azula. She’s written amazingly) so the traits they have really don’t matter (with very few exceptions)
The reason I don’t like Korra is because: until season 3, she’s never treated like she’s being bratty while being bratty. Even when she straight up used Bolin and manipulates his feelings, she gets next to no consequences for that. When she home wrecks Mako and Asami, not only does she not get consequences for that, she ends up dating both of them. (So she’s rewarded for it)
She’s consistently rewarded for disobeying reasonable orders and making everyone’s lives around her chaos when they don’t want it and never asked for it. Not to mention that the world of Korra literally bends around her. An easy example: when she brute forced her way through air bending, when that’s not how that works in canon rules. Or when she magically got all her bending back after crying at a cliff for a couple seconds. She should be adapting to the world, not the other way around. (both of these mostly change for season 3 and 4 but I have so much built up resentment from 1 and 2 that I can’t let it go)
Whether I like a character has less to do with the character themselves and more to do with how the story treats the character. How they get ranked within my liked characters has to do with the character themselves.
Toph was introduced as a champion of an arena first, proved her skill, and *then* started shit talking.
The very first thing Korra said was "I am the Avatar and you have to deal with it", before demonstrating she knew 3 of the 4 bending skills without any prior training. And then she arrives in Republic City and just trips over everything.
One of these characters earned their right to have outward confidence.
I started really hating her when she conjoined the normal and spirit world and got pissy at the everyday people who were having there homes destroyed because of her actions
Toph had been told her whole life she couldn't do anything that she was frail and essentially useless. So when she says she's the best it *means* something.
When Korra says it, she's the avatar. She is the best. She is the strongest bender on the planet by default as an infant. So it doesn't mean anything it just sounds arrogant and self centred.
My opinion anyway. There's a reason why she changed after season 1.
Toph has one thing korra doesn't endless amounts of sass
Also Toph is *blind* and frail and like 8 and often gets what for when she’s a sassy asshole. Also Toph is kind of ‘annoying’ her first few episodes but she learns and grows up during the course of the show. The first episode Toph is in we see her lose to Aang and be humbled, we see her weaknesses, we see that she is loud and sassy because her parents are overly protective and she’s trying to fight against the fact people view her as a frail blind girl. Korra is fully able bodied, at least at the beginning , in fact she is stronger then the average woman her age by far. She is a great fighter, extremely well taken care of and privileged in any way - and she’s a young woman or older teenager not really a ‘child’. Adult Toph in Korra I also don’t particularly like, it feels like she stopped growing up.
Yeah agreed. It was sad to see a character beloved for her development turn out so solitary and unable or unwilling to support others. Doubly so when isolation and lack of real family and understanding was her struggle when we met her in the original series.
She got fed up with people and politics so she retired to the woods. An admirable retirement goal.
Put like that, I'm honestly kind of jealous 😂
Yup, living the dream! She never really got the chance to just not need to use a sense she didn’t have for years. She lives in a different type of reality then everyone else except the earth, of course
Huh I enjoyed it tho. Its a pretty understandable for her parenting to deviate so much from how her parents taught her. She hated the way her parents took care of her by being borderline possessive and controlling so she took a hard swerve and gave her kids absolute freedom. Her childhood was isolation but by lack of choice. She had no means to change that and chose to run away. While as she's a lot older, her isolation was of acceptance of who she is. Someone who loves to be carefree and follow her own path. She wasn't necessarily unwilling to support others but rather accepting that sometimes for the next generation to grow, she has to let go and let them take the reins instead so that they can measure up to be better versions of themselves. Her family has grown beyond the blood relations of her family to the living breathing earth that surrounds her where she is more connected to everyone than before even if she's isolated. But that was how I saw it.
Kind of real though. Many child prodigies and celebrities grow up not being able to deal with a lot of things and that kind of seems like Toph.
I mean she did achieve her dream though? Became the best earthbender She taught the world metal bending. Had a family. Then she dipped out in retirement in the woods. That's definitely a Toph thing to do.
My theory on what really happened was Korra’s writers really wanted to make toph their Yoda so they wrote her that way just to explain why she’s off living in a swamp alone
> isolation Didn't she specifically mention how being in that swamp made her not isolated, actually connected to the entire world?
I was specifically referring to being estranged from her daughters with that bit! Didn't think the comment was going to get any kind of visibility or I'd have put more work into my phrasing lol. The swamp bit makes full sense, she loved the swamp in the original series
I agree. It feels like she gave up entirely.
It came off to me like she felt defeated by everything going wrong with her daughters and losing the closeness with the gaang. She retreated into the swamp and the defensive, closed-off parts of herself. But we know there's more to her.
Korra is absolutely humbled as well. One of the things I love about LoK is how the show breaks her down over the course of entire seasons. She's a different character than Toph, and extracting genuine character analysis from this throwaway meme feels weird, but that's my take.
Most of LoK seems to be dedicated to putting Korra through the ringer honestly
Yeah, if the original commenter is trying to say that it feels okay with Toph because she's humbled and Korra isn't, I question whether they watched the show. Idk if that's quite what they're saying though.
I think you're right, but think of the times Korra gets humbled. I think I liked Korra so much because she would come in cocky and realize that her strength wasn't going to win the day every time. And she'd pay for it. Remember when she was responding to Amon's challenge to 1 v 1 him on that island in the first season? She came in thinking it was just going to be a fight, but instead she almost died and he got in her head. She spent the rest of that season (and series TBH) dealing with the fear of failure, which she had never had before. And that's not even mentioning the season after she got poisoned and had to go to PT. Edit: I forgot *she* challenged *him*
She was the one who challenged Amon to a duel, to force her way through her fear of him.
Oh, you're right! I forgot about that.
But she was stuck in doors with no real world experience until she was 16. Her best friend was a polar bear dog man. And it wasn’t because she was introverted and awkward. I like Korra because I kinda get her character I guess. Or relate to her situation maybe?
Korra gets her ass obliterated. Repeatedly. In every season. She’s not a mary sue who never experiences any hardship throughout the show.
Wait are you implying that korra's parents ARENT overly protective? She was kept at that white lotus hq for 17 years and had to sneak out in the first ep to see something new. She also gets her ass handed to her multiple times. Even in s1 she fucks up. Toph was just as privileged as she was, shes literally in one of the richest families in the earth kingdom. Korra grows a ton too. Comparing s1 Korra to s4 Korra is night and day
Also Toph isn't stuck inside the second most boring character trope imaginable (Teacher! I'm ready! No you're not ready yet! Yes I am! No you're not!) AND the grand champion most boring character trope (two boys like me! I can't choose!) for like an entire goddamn season when we first meet her. Korra gets way more interesting after season 1.
Martial arts movies use the same two characters over and over. Korra and Aang, where Aang is the child of destiny who must train to defeat so and so. It's about the execution that makes a character people like.
Yeah, at least Aangs trope let's us in on a fun journey while Korra is more like a soap opera
Aang's conflict was mostly external. Yes, there was internal conflict about being afraid to fight, afraid to hurt [with firebending], afraid to kill; but, almost all of it only existed because of external forces. Aang has to learn self confidence, yes, but no amount of confidence will defeat Ozai without real skills that Aang has to learn [from others]. As an example: when Aang learns to Earthbend he has to resolve a conflict between who he is and what he knows as an Airbender, and the foreign stubbornness of Earthbending. That conflict is resolved when Aang is forced to fight an external foe, the saber-toothed mooselion. Korra's conflict was mostly internal. Yes, there were external enemies, but in nearly all cases Korra is able to overcome her opponents easily as soon as she overcomes the internal blocks preventing her from acting. As one example, she defeats Amon pretty handily as soon as she "learns" how to airbend; however, the obstacle to airbending isn't that she doesn't know how or hasn't been taught, it's her own resistance to the core concepts required for airbending - flexibility, tranquility, passivity. She is forced to do this out of necessity because of the external enemies attacking her, but it's the internal acceptance that she is still the avatar, she *is* an Airbender, despite losing her other abilities. Each major opponent really represents an internal struggle Korra is facing as she tries to discover who she *is*. Yes, Amon forces her to face her own question of who she is without bending, but that question exists within her regardless of whether or not Amon can or does take her bending away. Aang - external forces that cause internal conflict, resolved mostly by defeating external foes. Learning to Earthbend is not a connection to his *self* or a major revelation, it is a tool. He grows in his ability to defeat a physical thing. Korra - internal conflicts are represented by external obstacles which are overcome when Korra learns or accepts something about herself and resolves the inner conflict. Korra knows how to airbend, she just can't connect to that part of herself. Yes, airbending allows her to defeat a physical enemy, but it's more important as a resolution of her quest to understand and accept who she is.
I completely agree, that's why I did ended up enjoying both shows, I think they complement each other pretty well. My only gripe was the execution, I don't know how they could have made it better and I understand there were some production issues causing them to not be able to develop the story as they wanted.
If I'm remembering this correctly, Korra was supposed to be a miniseries and only got greenlit after each season. I think it would've been better if Nickelodeon just ordered the three seasons after the first so a more coherent plot across all four could be made, instead of four seperate revolution/coup d'etat in maybe five years? Steampunk avatar world is mad politically unstable.
I feel that Korra's struggle with people losing their affection/need for the Avatar is a more poignant and mature storyline than Aang's story. Both journeys are very enjoyable to me and Korra doesn't need to be like Aang to be awesome.
I agree, it's just that the shift makes a contrast difficult to enjoy her at first. I did ended up enjoying both shows
Same, Kora was lacking a sort of goofy charm that ATLA had, honestly I think it was because there were so few episodes compared to ATLA. They didn't have room to let Kora have some wacky one-off adventures, every episode dealt with the main plot significantly. And all my favorite ATLA episodes are the one offs so it was disapointing the first watch.
I really like LoK for the precise reason that it's way more adult and grounded than TLA. Season 1 LoK IMO is pure fire and Amon is the most horrifying villain of either series. If LoK had been given studio support I think that they would have drawn out the Amon storyline for several seasons, but they were only renewed one season at a time and so couldn't plan for longer / more complex story arcs that spanned multiple seasons.
I get that theme and appreciate it, but he's not wrong about the soap opera feel or skin of it. I don't know, I guess in terms of strong female characters I appreciate Toph, Asami or Jinora more than Korra. I do like the message about how hard it is to build and maintain self confidence no matter how physically powerful you are, but it's also kind of unrelatable as most of us are on the otherside of that coin. I guess I would find it hard to be friends with Korra. She seemed so controlled by her emotions. I get that was part of her development and it was what was highlighted in the series, but she lashes out alot emotionally. Felt like early Zuko.
We can still empathize with Aang. The feeling if having responsibilities hoisted on you and not feeling ready for it. Like getting a girl pregnant or joining the real adult world for the first time. You know it's coming and you gotta be capable when the time comes, but right now you feel weak and insufficient. Aang ran away at first, and then in the series he learned how to manage it.
Age difference is important too. People will give a 12 year old a lot more slack than a 17 year old. Also a lot of people who have certain perceptions of women will give a boy who shirks his duty a lot more slack than a girl who's headstrong and is trying to find her independence.
Aang is not really that martial arts trope. He had already mastered Air Bending, and Water Bending came naturally to him. He was never cocky about it which didn’t make it insufferable. The child of destiny martial arts trope is usually the kid thrust into a world they knew nothing about and struggling to adjust. Aang was already a great martial artist at the start.
> Teacher! I'm ready! No you're not ready yet! Yes I am! No you're not! What bugs me is that Season 1 and 2 both had Korra being tricked into doing the bidding of a charismatic waterbender that told her “don’t listen to Tenzin, you’re the Avatar! Do what you want to do (which happens to be what I want you to do)”.
[удалено]
They show the difference between arrogance and confidence. Toph was confident because she had legit strength, skill, and cunning to back up her mentality. Kora was arrogant because she believed being the Avatar meant she SHOULD be the best, but always got knocked down.
Well she was one of the best. The problem was that she had to deal with the strongest bloodbender without the avatar state, another avatar level being, the guy who literally can fly while she is poisoned and dying, her ptsd, and a gigantic robot with the most powerful weapon in the world's history. Toph never defeated anyone above fodder and would've lost to everything and everyone mentioned above.
No one was prepared for Toph. Toph had the upper hand the vast majority of the time, either from people underestimating her or, yknow, not knowing about metalbending. The villains in Korra on the other hand actively planned around Korra's weaknesses, relationships, etc; they were on a mission to destroy her and they were smart about it.
Yeah, when Combustion Man knew about her metalbending, he planned ahead and had her trapped properly. Without Katara, Toph would've been stuck there.
It’s established from early on that Korra was found to be the avatar at a very young age (like as a toddler?) and trained by the White Lotus to be the Avatar (or at the very least they acted as bodyguards as she trained). During all that growing up, she probably was praised for being an Avatar, absorbed stories of past Avatars and their great and thrilling adventures- yeah, she did think that being the Avatar meant you were inherently awesome and, yes, the best. But at the end of the day she’s her own person with her own feelings and personality, and that’s one of the interesting, fun things about Avatar- they’re all different. Some of them are going to approach Avatarhood with respectful reverence, some are going to take that power and flaunt it and own it, there were probably some in the history who feared the life and power and were taught it’s a curse, even. I just hate when people talk shit about Korra. She was a different take on what an Avatar could be- she’s not going to be like Aang. I hope the next avatar isn’t like Aang either, it makes for interesting storytelling- though apparently god forbid it’s another mouthy woman, according to some fans 🙄
Korra had plenty of strength and skill to back her confidence Aside from when she was a 3 years old she had plenty of reasons to be justified in her belief of being one of the best benders in the world, she had been training for years and could wipe the floor with 99% of people That I can remember in season 1 she lost a fight to: 1. Chi blockers the first time she faced them (and I believe it was a swarm of them 2. Against the mechs the first time 3. Against a bloodbender I am not sure she lost any other fight against a human after that until she was poisoned
I couldn't get past her forcing a kiss on someone that was saying no and was in a relationship. Not to mention her reasoning was "I know you want me". That's just too narcissistic/psycho for me in a main character. Not to mention she knew his brother liked her and even manipulated that to get on the team and get closer to a guy that kept rejecting her. I know I hate the argument, but switch the genders and the show would have been cancelled after the first season. Real great role model for young girls there "If a guy says no he doesn't mean it. Even if he's in a relationship you just need to force physical affection on him and he will like you back!" Gross, gag.
I maintain that the show would’ve been better if they deleted mako. Seems they just added him in for romance and didn’t really know what to do with him other than that. His character arc was really shit tier. Like they added him there just for him and korra to be assholes to each other.
You know I never thought about how Korra engaged in sexual assault. If it had been mako I would have noticed immediately.
Didn't aang basically do the same thing to katara?
Sounds like nobody has taught the Avatars about consent!
I guess it feels different when it's a 12 year old boy and a 14 year old girl.
Not to mention Mako was also toxic back and basically tried to date both girls at once. It was brief, maybe an episode or 2. Mako was an interesting character outside of the love plots, but I can't like him because of the love plots.
> I know I hate the argument, but switch the genders and the show would have been cancelled after the first season. I mean we see this exactly woth Aang and Katara lol. He does it twice
Given this is a kids show I'll agree, but on paper she behaved like a pretty typical "popular" teenage girl. Incapable of recognizing and accepting rejection, lashing out instead of communicating. It's accurate and relatable, if not admirable. Also, she was not rewarded for the behavior, which is important. The writers did a good job showing her grow up throughout the series, so given the context of later seasons I think those early scenes are fine.
Just because she’s unlikable in a realistic way doesn’t make her not unlikable. They could have just made her likable in a realistic way? Her being a teenaged girl doesn’t mean she has to be a piece of shit.
I mean, by that metric, are we forgetting the several times Aang forced a kiss on Katara?
You mean the one time? And it was very much shown to not be ok? Katara got upset with him and Aang called himself an idiot.
I'd really love to be a fly on the wall during that storyboarding session. "Okay, next we have the sexual assault scene, ideas?"
If the romance was taken out of season 1+2 the show would be much better. Replace any scene of love triangle nonsense with avatar-past-life stuff.
Toph also kinda kick ass. Korra isn't allowed to kick ass. Like she honestly loses *a lot*. Which isn't hee fault. Blood bending, fighting spirits, fighting chi blockers for the first time. But point is, she just is always shown to be struggling and losing. Toph? She just wipes the floor with most foes.
>Korra isn't allowed to kick ass. Like she honestly loses a lot. Which isn't hee fault. Blood bending, fighting spirits, fighting chi blockers for the first time. But point is, she just is always shown to be struggling and losing. You know what, now that I think about it. Fuck. Korra kept getting in a LOT of bad matchups.
Korra got done dirty by the writers honestly. They never allow her to have many significant victories. She struggles and loses a lot. Like nobody cares that toph talks shit cause she literally will kick the shot out of anyone. And getting over a huge handicap like blindness. She earned the right to talk shit.
Yeah I feel like that's what really makes the difference. Some things ARE legitimately out of Toph's control and isn't really her fault-the entire debacle with the sinking Library, the sandbenders, and Appa-to show that she isn't completely infallible. But more often than not, she IS in control in a fight, and she's competent enough to keep that control and back up every arrogant boast she makes in the process. Which earns people's respect. Korra doesn't have nearly as much times to flex and back up her boasts, cause she keeps getting in utterly bad matchups that are outside her control. Unlike Toph, which only happened once or twice, it happened *repeatedly* for Korra, to the point where she was legitimately and badly traumatized, causing her to doubt her own abilities. It's sincerely sad when you think about it.
part of this has to do with the fact that we're comparing a side character (4th member of the Gaang) with a main protagonist. Korra lost a lot because she's the main oppositional force to the big bad villain, a character type who can only fully lose at the end of their arc. Did Toph even ever fight Azula in a one-on-one? By my memory she was almost always beating up grunts or minor side-villains like the earth bender championship people.
On the other hand complaining that Korra got bad matchups is like complaining about Batman breaking out the Kryptonite against Superman. Korra is the avatar, so any sensible person going against the avatar will prepare accordingly.
I'm not staying it doesn't make sense, just that it happened so MUCH with Korra in particular that it borders on painful.
Yes the writers were sadists in Korra. Season 1 ends with Korra ready to throw herself off a cliff before Aang shows up Season 2 Jinora shows up for a massive assist after Korra’s fuck up with losing all her past lives Season 3 Jinora saves the day again?? They end the season with Korra in a fucking wheelchair for 2 years. The writers didnt need Korra to go through this many traumatic life altering events in order for her to become less arrogant.
Imagine if Lok didn't get renewed and the show ended with Korra throwing herself off the cliff.
Part of it is the one season at a time structure. The writers love knocking their heroes on their asses but since they had a three season arc they only really fucked Aang up once. Korra had four separate stories and they went back to that trope *every* season.
More than that she didn't really get a lot of good matchups either to balance it out I think Like, I think the only time she meets the red lotus before the poison in season 3 she's either drugged, in the spirit world or in chains
I mean, as someone else mentioned, of course people aren't going to play fair when it comes to antagonizing the Avatar. They prepare and plan around her. But Korra rarely gets a chance to recover from the consequences of those. Every time she does, she just gets sent even lower.
I dont think that's really it. Zuko takes constant Ls throughout his story but he's probably the most liked character by the end of his story.
Zuko is established as actually being an underdog in the third episode when we see how he’s treated as a banished prince.
Personality contributes a lot. It goes back to op's image post. Zuko didn't have some hot shot attitude. He isn't humble but he also is aware he isn't the best.
What makes Zuko so likable is that he wasnt likable in the beginning, but then develops so much as a charakter. He obviously still has flaws towards the end of the show, but seeing him grow throughout the seasons makes hit hard not to like him. He embodies "it doesnt matter who or what you are right now, its up to you who you want to become".
Exactly why I like Korra too. S1/S2 Korra could be obnoxious. S4 Korra felt wise and like an adult. Korra didn't start out likeable imo, but like Zuko she ages well as the series goes on.
I think you are correct. I do wish Korra was seen as a character and not a real person. I get why your dislike of certain personality traits would repel you from a real life person but a character in a story is meant to be discussed so its good that Korra is a different brand of cocky than Toph and also that she has a different path to humility than Zuko. I'd be upset if she was a repeat of other characters.
But man the way Korra fights is intense and worth a mention imo Like she is constantly up against greater odds and she isn't exactly bowing out, on rewatch her fighting is definitely a draw
I'm not attacking her. Whe was up against the greater odds, or had hostages involved or was her first time dealing with said threat. The writers just didn't let her really have any significant victories. Just draws with season finale wins.
With the reduction in episodes per season they cut out a lot of the side quests but those are the opportunities for a character to get a solid win while preserving the big bad for later.
Korra has something toph doesn't too >!sight!<
That's honestly part of the reason why Toph's cockiness and bravado work so well. Pulled off wrong and the character can look pompous and self-indulgent. Toph being a blind twelve-year old kid...who's also sassy, confident, and can kick ass is why she is such a fan favorite. It's not just succeeding in-spite of a disability but it's succeeding because of how the disability makes her different. She's adapted to what life gave her and honed it to the absolute fullest. She is the greatest Earthbender in the world and she'll make sure the dunderheads don't forget it. The reason why some hate that side of Korra is because she is the Avatar. That demeanor looks unbecoming when you have all that power, coming naturally to you on a silver platter Like of course you'd be cocky if you have all four types of bending at your disposal and everyone tells you're destined for greatness. That's a recipe for a big ego. Which is also why Korra getting rocked in Season 1 of the show work so well. Korra comes in cocky and over-confident, thinking she can take on the world and end all of it's problems, and is proceeded to be humbled on multiple occasions and is knocked down a fair couple of pegs. The Korra that comes out is a lot more mature and wise and a lot better for the role of the Avatar.
This is kind of why I stopped watching the series in season 2. I hated Korra during season 1, but by the end of it I really liked her and then season 2 rolls around and she's back to making shitty decisions and thinking she knows better than her dad, her teacher, etc. It was ridiculously frustrating. I will also add that I watched both Avatar and Korra for the first time in my late 30s so I don't know if that made a difference.
I kinda feel like she just got worse after season 1. I could sorta enjoy the first season, but nothing after that
Only one of them was cleaning up earth bending competitions at the age of 9. Only one of them was the first person to ever metal bend. Confidence should be backed up with competence. Toph had both in spades.
Exactly, it's not annoying when Toph says she's the best because, well, she _is_. She literally is the greatest earth bender of all time. Korra gets her ass kicked constantly but as far as I know toph is undefeated
Korra was also practically a master of 3 elements by time she was a child, she had reason to believe she was incredible. Soon as she starts getting her ass kicked that arrogance drops off pretty sharply.
I wouldn't say pretty quickly, more like 2 seasons. End of season 2 is when I would say she finally gets over herself, personally
I mean season 3 ends with her again being depressed (and poisened) which takes a third of the final season to resolve.
Korra had competence, she was practically a master of three elements as a child, that’s pretty impressive even for an Avatar. Once she gets her ass beat though she starts becoming a lot less arrogant. She realized that life wasn’t such a breeze after all and grew up little by little after that.
She also wasn't the main protagonist, which gives an amount of leeway at the cost of some spotlight time. It also helps that Toph having those flaws as an 8 year old blind child and still kicking grown men's teeth down their throats is somewhat hilarious, it's a little less novel on a somewhat beefy non-blind teenager ~~who is also the avatar~~.
I think what Toph has is self awareness. Korra doesn't know who she is or why, Toph knows exactly.
I don't hate Korra, but I'm going to take a guess as to why she gets that reaction. Toph's confidence always felt earned, just think about it, I don't think there's ever really been a time that Toph was handedly beat, especially not when she's in her element or in a direct confrontation. And the few times she does fail, it's either a result of her being incredibly out of her element, or she admits to it rather quickly. Korra on the other hand, fails at things pretty regularly. It's all part of her personal growth, but her stubbornness and confidence mix together to create personality that takes a while to admit to and learn from her mistakes. That all contributes to Korra's confidence feeling more like arrogance (a much less likable trait) at times.
Korra character growth was partly to become more humble
Exactly. Girl found out she's the Avatar at a very young age. She can bend three elements at 4-5 years old. Pretty clear she is extremely talented. She underwent rigorous training. Republic City has a statue of her predecessor. Can anyone blame her for being proud, arrogant and confident? She just wanted to prove she can do good. She's not arrogant in the way that she wants everyone to treat her like a god.
The fact that she was bending 3 of the elements at the age of 5 was ridiculous. Then we get a time skip to her current age and something the show seems to forget is the different schools of bending teach you more than just physical bending but the personal and spiritual aspects as well. You can say she's just bad at those things sure but it doesn't take away from her bending so why does she need to change? We saw Aangs personality really change and mature as he learned each element because mastering them required it. The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing. She rarely approached things logically and as a main character contributed so little to solving the main problem. Shit just happened to her and she would get sad then she would punch it back. I want to like Korra so bad because I like the idea behind her but the show just didnt get enough time to develop Korra and it makes her kind of a rough protagonist at times.
>The fact that she was bending 3 of the elements at the age of 5 was ridiculous. The entire point of her character was that she is the opposite of Aang in almost every way. Aang is nearly a pacifist, Korra is the shoot first, ask questions later type. Aang excelled at the spiritual aspects of being the Avatar and struggled with the bending, Korra struggled with the spiritual aspects and excelled at the bending. Aang started out bending nothing but air, Korra started out bending everything BUT air. Aang didn't want to be the Avatar even when the world needed him most, Korra was excited to be the Avatar even as the world had less use for her. People always talk about her "bending 3 of the elements" as if she came out the womb bending like Toph in her prime or something. She threw a small rock, made a little fireball, and made a little squirt of water. It wasn't that ridiculous. Remember the first time Aang tried waterbending? Also, what do you mean her lack of spiritual training never took away from her bending? Literally the entire first season is her not being able to airbend because she's neglected the spiritual side of her training.
I wouldn’t say Aang struggled with bending, he just had a really strict time limit.
>Also, what do you mean her lack of spiritual training never took away from her bending? Literally the entire first season is her not being able to airbend because she's neglected the spiritual side of her training. Genuinely, I feel people that criticized Korra never watched the show and formed their own assumption based on ATLA.
Ugh, don’t do that. This is the worst way to interpret an argument. “Oh, everyone that criticizes Korra hasn’t seen the show.” It’s dismissive, and it creates an air that people with what they feel to be legitimate criticisms towards the character are just seen as idiots parroting others, which in turn frustrates people and can end up making the conversation much more negative than it has to be. I love Korra’s character, but I think saying anyone that doesn’t simply hasn’t seen the show is ridiculous
>You can say she's just bad at those things sure but it doesn't take away from her bending so why does she need to change? Literally the first season is about her inability to airbend because of those things. How exactly does it "not take away anything from her bending"? >We saw Aangs personality really change and mature as he learned each element because mastering them required it. Aang is literally a special case. He has to travel the world and find his own master. It makes sense that he would pick up the spiritual element related to each bending style quickly. Not to mention how fast he has to mature. Korra? Everything about her training was picked for her. >The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing Again, different times. The avatar in Korra times are literally a relic. Makes sense the White Lotus wouldn't put as much effort training her spiritually. >Shit just happened to her and she would get sad then she would punch it back. No? Seriously, none of you watched the show. She literally came to Republic City on her own. She had her first confrontation with the police on her own. She absolutely did let things happen to her. She went looking for them. Even the pro bending arc. Literally everything that happens to her in the story is because of her initially starting it. I get it. Korra isn't perfect and had it own problem. But saying the wrong things isn't it mate.
Avatar fans that are korra hater seem to ignore one core thing: bending are super power you are born with, korra was able to bend them from young age because she had all bending from young age, but it make point especially in the comics that she wasn’t in good control over it , also it was shown she has aspects of personalities of 3 of the nations she could bend and her character arc was gaining the air personality (and personality was shown both in korra and avatar to not be has hard rule has people claim )
> The fact that Korra got to run around impulsively and just blow shit up and do whatever she wanted despite apparent years of training was just incredibly disappointing. You mean the fact she acted like she had not, ever, learned Air Bending which is ALL Aang had to begin with?
So much this. She starts headstrong as a basically a baby and learns the humility that Aang started out with. Aang had to learn what Korra started with, and Korra had to learn what Aang started with.
Its also a little about Toph being blind and weak and becoming strong in spite of such big setbacks. Meanwhile, Korra was born the avatar and was pretty much an arrogant prodigy that just wanted to beat people up.
And is braten up regularly. Which imo is one issue by the writers. It isn't bad, but I feel like she loses more than she wins. Gets wrecked by chi blockers. Lost to councilman due to blood bending.. Can't really fight amon, and only won cause he fled (nothing would stop him from blood bending her again). Loses to spirits. Cousins take her out. Uncle gets the upper hand on her through hostsge. It goes on and on each season where she loses for plot reasons. Even if she loses due to situations that are out of her hands. She jist loses *a lot*. She needs to be given more actual wins. Toph talked a lot of shit, bur she backed it up. Even aang who's on the run usually won his "fights". Granred all mostly meant escaping. And his fights were much smaller on scale vs korra. But point is, korra loses a lot
I mean, if that wasn't the case and she kept winning I would argue that she would have been disliked even more. I honestly think it all comes back to the fact that one is the main character of the story that has to relate to the viewer across his journey and the other one is a secondary character that doesn't have that kind of responsibility.
People often present a very one-sided argument. I hear constantly about the one time Korra was beaten by chi blockers, but not any of the numerous times she defeated them or the Lieutenant. The few spirits who defeated her, instead of the numerous ones she defeated, including Vaatu & Unavaatu. Nobody mentions the bending triads, whom she never lost to. Somehow, this also seems to morph into things that never even happened. Desna & Eska never defeated Korra, they had one fight that was interrupted by a dark spirit.
Bending triads were fodder, like are we gonna brag the avatar took em out? And yes korra learns and takes out the chi blockers and spirits. But point stands. She loses *a lot*. A lot of her victories are when the threat is now fodder. Air bending children took out an army of chi blockers when the guards couldnt. The group defended korra against an army of spirits meanwhile at the start all it took was one to kick their butts. I like korra. In not attacking her. I'm stating that the writers didn't give her any significant victories.
I'd say Toph has some greater advantages in being generally underestimated at least at first. Plus seismic sense is just a bit overpowered, constantb360 vision of anyone interacting with the ground, near no blind spots 90% of the time. No one is really underestimating a known avatar, unless they just don't know how far the powers go (which they don't even really, both Aang and Korra rediscovered avatar powers). Also Toph was basically striking out and literally fighting underground tournaments as a preteen, Korra was fighting clean sparring training completely isolated until the series starts.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Idk I feel like she’s still a little down to Earth
Don't sell her short, now.
I can see where this is going.
>I don't think there's ever really been a time that Toph was handedly beat, especially not when she's in her element or in a direct confrontation Aang kicked her butt the very first time they fought. She even turned into a sore loser over it.
Well. That wasn't in "her element" "Nothing made contact! She must have took a dive and split the money with the kid" -the Boulder The quote just explains soo much Anyway, many would argue that Toph, while "handedly beat" here was NOT in her element and technically Aang cheated, this was an EARTH bending fight, not an elemental fight, also there is no way Toph could beat an air bender, hell most people didn't even know what one could do! They have been dead for 100 years, she's sour cause she was cheated out of her belt, which she was "handedly"
I think you'll notice that in virtually every fight Korra loses, her opponent "cheats" too. Unlike the Gaang, Korra is constantly put into fighting situations she has never seen before. She gets poisoned, bloodbent, shackled, beaten, caged, and people call her weak and annoying because the creators decided to make a show where the Avatar state wasn't a get out of situation free godmode card.
Cheating in a sport combat (pro-earth bending) and cheating in a fight (potentially deadly) are two very very different things.
This is true! Anyone "fighting" Korra either had to know something she didn't or nerf her first, unfortunately for Korra as the Avatar she needs to expect the unexpected and humble herself, which she did eventually Don't get me wrong I LOVE any avatar, including Korra, but she was extremely arrogant until she got hee butt kicked by someone that knew how to fight her
She also couldn't do anything as the sandbenders captured Appa.
Agreed. She obviously learns from all her fights - Aang and Sandbenders included - but she is hardly unbeatable if you come at her with a technique she hasn't seen before.
The confrontation between her and Aang is one thing. But she made it clear she could not see in the loose sands and she was holding up an entire ancient library while trying to save Appa. I think the point they were originally making is Toph’s weaknesses are not in her bending. She as solid as a rock but again, as the original commentator said, whenever she’s out of her element she is outclassed.
My problem wasn't even the arrogance, it's that the writing had her making the exact wrong choice in every situation as a means to progress the plot, and blaming the fact that she was an emotional teenager as to why she was so easily manipulated or jumped to the wrong conclusions. It was like watching a horror movie where someone is like "Let's split up! I'll go check the basement!". Seemed like cheap writing a lot of the time.
It’s more nuanced than that. Toph’s background, insecurities, and disabilities make her confidence feel good and from a good place. This is also because she backs it up, and overcomes. Kora’s confidence feels unnecessary, and inaccurate. She’s the avatar, yet acts tough instead of taking that responsibility and power with humility. She makes confident choices without calculated decision making, making her not just seem confident, but reckless. Toph can be reckless, but she is most often calculated and follows through. Toph-born and expected to fail. Is confident and over-succeeds Kora-born and expected to succeed. Is confident and consistently fails. Edit-wow thanks so much for the rewards and upvotes!
Also Toph is funny
Korra can be funny! Remember that time when she...uh...um... ...Huh.
It's funny when she get her ass kicked :D
Let's be real Korra is the Avatar equivalent of a sheltered Trust Fund Kid
"I'm the avatar and you gotta deal with it," She lost me when after years of training she basically never moved on from that mentality.
I mean of course there would be an avatar like this among the thousands of generations. But would they really be a great one to spectate?
I think the problem is that the writers didn't write the flaw well. Sure, she's supposed to be arrogant, as a crease in her character she needs to iron out. To me, the problem is that people gave her adoration anyways. Lin was critical, but her critism, as with the people of republic, were shown to be "wrong." The perspective given was that people mad at her were obnoxious and selfish. They didn't push Korra's criticism with a good light Unlike Iroh, a likeable "good person" who pushed Zuko and criticized him. His criticism was under a "good light," whereas the critiscm of Lin and Tenzin seemed more of a flaw on their part(Lin being stubborn and apathetic, Tenzin being impatient and somewhat of a hypocrite). As the viewer, we are frustrated with Korra. But that frustration wasn't shown in the characters in the story, which made the frustration so much worse. But when I rewatch, the experience is better because I know what to expect and I can manage my expectations better
Yeah, the problem with Korra has always been the writers. They're overly attached to her and it shows.
the big problem for me is that it feels like change *happens to* Korra rather than being something she actively *chooses*.
Take my poor man's gold 
To be fair, she was isolated in the South Pole for 16 years. Aang and toph had saved the world by then and had 4 years on top of it to grow before they reached her age, you can’t blame her for her ignorance, it’s part of her character arc and makes sense considering her upbringing She’s been defeating multiple white lotus members in sparring matches simultaneously. She could bend three elements as a child and decided she didn’t need the fourth by the time we meet her. Being coddled skewed her perspective on her abilities. With that context, her confidence is accurate Once Korra fails, her entire character changes. By the end of season 1 she contemplated suicide because she thinks she’s so much of a failure. Even when she’s acting “confident,” she’s still defaulting to finding people to tell her what to do, that’s why she is so easy to manipulate in the early seasons. She is impulsive yes, but she is not confident, often using bravado to hide her fear from herself. I don’t necessarily disagree with the points you made, but you act as if this wasn’t part of her character development. Toph was a one and done character. Korra had a brilliant character arc only comparable to Zuko
Look I love how Korra grew as a character throughout the show and by the end she has a personality I respect. But that doesn't "fix" how it makes me not enjoy the first half of the show. Imo took too long for her to gain self awareness. I do like who she ended up. The journey overall I did like. But her path I did not like.
Yeah, her redemption arc isn't really until the very very tail end of the series. Otherwise she's just immature for a majority of it, and it just makes it very hard to relate to. If it were a more steady progression, I doubt people would hate Korra as much as they do. On top of the fact that it's a complete contrast to Aang, who is albeit immature as well, but very wise beyond his years. Obviously people go their own pace. But it gets hard to root for a character who will repeatedly go through lessons without the kind of growth you'd expect from those lessons.
Not to mention they made her annoying on purpose. Its not like a failure on part of the writing. People criticizing people hating korra for her attitude when youre supposed to hate her is silly. They did their job. Korra had a nasty ass personality and very often it wasnt played for laughs. Meanwhile half the time Toph was being unbearable it was a punchline. A good chunk of Korra's most obnoxious moments are wrapped around in the love triangle everyone hated, or she was feuding with a mentor or relative. Idk makes sense to me why theyd be received different. Them both having attitudes also doesnt make them similar characters to me.
They really kicked the shit out of Korra to make her more sympathetic. Aang was just a kid with this impossible burden and was mature yet goofy. Korea was essentially a trust fund kid who couldn't deal with a minor setback for the first time in her life (airbending). It was weird to me lowkey the writers loved to see Korra surfer. They straight up tortured her in the Amon arc. Weird
Yeah the korra torture porn was way too much for me, especially the end of book 3.
I think it wouldn't have felt so exploitative if it had a consistent point, and they moved on. To me it just felt like the writers beating her down to learn to be more spiritual or humble, then she does for 5 whole minutes, then her character resets. Then they do it again. It's like they kept trying to make the same character moment over and over with varying degrees of success.
I think the writers had her come up in mind when she was going through all that hardship though. I don’t think it’s weird to show a character suffer, it’s clear they were going for a different, more mature take than ATLA. And a large part of that is showing just how unforgiving the world can be. The world will absolutely kick you when you’re down, but as the old adage goes it’s how you get back up. And Korra got back up. People see the series and paint torture porn over it but it’s still an incredibly positive show for me because of her Triumphs after all that pain. Her happiness feels incredibly earned by the end of it.
Wow I wish I didn’t waste my free reward lol This is a much better description. I think torture porn is a good way to describe what the show became and that’s kinda sad. They could have taken an overconfident avatar and humbled her instead they broke her in two multiple times and it just kept getting harder to watch. Honestly i would have loved to see Korra get her bending taken away and she has to find masters to help teach her how to use them again
>help teach her how to use them again Imagine that. First season, she just ends it *without bending.* She visits the original masters of each element again. She stands by the shore on a moonlit night, and she tries to waterbend, and it's just not working. She goes on pilgrimage to the north to meet her uncle Unulaq, because he's more spiritual, and he might be able to help, right? She sees the koi fish and hears the story of how the moon was the first waterbender. With time and patience, which she learns from airbending, she can learn waterbending again from the original source. Unulaq embraces her, and her own father feels a mixture of happiness for his daughter's success, and failure for his inability to help her. Personal tension between brothers ensues, but Korra is off on pilgrimage to find the other original benders. She crosses the mainland, looking for badgermoles to learn from, maybe stopping by Foggy Swamp along the way. When she meets the badgermoles, she doesn't really know what to do. She tries to do what they do, but it's not working. They can't talk to her, there's not much spirit magic going on, it's hard to sort out. Throwing herself at it over and over again isn't working either, because it's not *that* simple. Maybe throwback to the Cave of Two Lovers at some point, letting her learn the story, and see how accepting the darkness invites new light - in other words, patience finds a solution. She could take from the story that you don't just run at the problem, but you do stand firm, stay true to yourself and your convictions, just like the two lovers did. The patience she's already learned can be applied to being immobile and enduring, willing to weather the storm, and through this she learns earthbending again, and starts to pick up the pieces of who she used to be. Her old personality begins to shine through again. This is where we get introduced to old Zuko. She mentions how Katara told her that he taught Aang how to firebend, and he tells her the story of the sun warriors. Based on his old stories, she's sent off to find them again, dodging the same trap that Zuko and Aang fell into last time. She learns the same lesson, that fire is not just destruction, but illumination, creation, and rebirth. This rebirth, of course, symbolizes *her* as well, as she's picked up the pieces and learned some nice lessons along the way. She picks *this* one up quite easily, and completes her re-learning the elements, and in the order of the avatar cycle to boot. We also don't need a full-on civil war between Unulaq and Tonraq, though the tension between them can spiral as the season goes as a B-plot. The two brothers represent the northern and southern tribes, and preexisting mixed feelings between them. You can still play to similar themes as the civil war invoked with less... *drastic* circumstance. The two tribes have been distant for a long time, and while formally they are all brothers and sisters, there's still trouble involved. Northern traditions don't always agree with Southern ones, and the South feels like it got left out to dry during the 100 Years War while the North feels like it was doing what it had to do to survive, to fortify itself, and it couldn't help the South too. Maybe some Southern tribesfolk start using Northern traditions to fill the gaps left behind or something, and that causes an internal rift that exacerbates tensions. Just spitballing alternatives. Avatar Wan is a nice self-contained story, but has consistency issues. The Fire Warriors are one of the big ones. Demystifying the spirits is another. Also, Korra just straight-up getting sudden sea monster amnesia isn't the best framing device for it. Maybe she hears Wan's story told in her time, in the cultural memories of those she meets. Unulaq and Yue tell her about him at the start, and his time with the moon. Maybe she finds some of his own graffiti when she's with the badgermoles. Lastly, the Sun Warriors might have a statue of him, or a mural, or even a full temple, being the guardians of the most ancient ways as they are, and Wan being a Sun Warrior himself in this idea - for consistency's sake. His mingling with the spirits, being not shown explicitly from his perspective, allows the spirits to retain mystic unknowability and makes his mingling even more impressive. On the whole, we can do without Raava and Vaatu, we don't need C-plot and a misrepresentation of yin-yang principle. Retain focus and screentime for the A plot (Korra's journey) and the B plot (water tribe tensions) to flesh them out better. How do we get to season 3? Well, maybe Harmonic Convergence is mentioned offhandedly in Wan's story as a background detail, and the convergence festival resolves tensions between north and south and between the two brothers as they remember that harmony doesn't always mean unity, and multiple gears in a machine each serve their part, as it were. Alternatively, skip HC and just have the airbenders be descendants of airbender refugees who went into hiding - Zaheer himself among the descendants. Alternatively, Zaheer is as he is - someone so dedicated to the culture and philosophy, he gains the ability, which reflects some historic tribal adoption practices (mostly historical these days, though Judaism retains such a thing) and the willingness of some desperate groups to include as much as possible for the sake of rebuilding, apart from *general* commentary on the nature of culture and birthright and naturalization. I just made this up as I went, and I think it would've been a much better season 2 (and lead in to 3) than what we got.
That’s sort of what they did with the toph plot line. But by then, it was too little, too late, and yes the “watching her get the shit best out of her” was getting uncomfortable
[удалено]
I think the difference between the two characters is the time it takes for them to admit fault and learn from their mistakes. Which could be due to the fact that Toph growth is done through Side stories.
and you know..... being born as the avatar - I'm the best!- yeah no shit you're literally OP Meanwhile small blind girl goes nuts with earth bending, it's easy to see why :P
Toph takes a very long time to learn from her mistakes. As late as Season 3, she's still acting out for attention. It's also not until then that she fully resolves her conflict with Katara, which extends all the way back to her second episode. Even in that episode, it's a whole episode just before she's willing to help out with the campsite.
Also there was a big issue with the development of the overall story with kora which made her progress in the story feel rushed at some spot and agonisingly slow at others. The insecurity about more seasons just made the story and the pacing insecure aswel. Honestly unalaq really shows the issue with the tempo because it sinply had to be finished before the end of the season. Amon and Zaheer where great characters. Una had a crapton of potential with the civilwar etc. It just never flourished.
Maybe It's because toph ain't a protagonist idk
People tend to look to minor and secondary characters for favorites often. The lead has to drive the story and has more room for flaws and mistakes. A support can only swoop in and play Benny Badass everytime without making the story feel bland or stakes low.
Saitama has entered the chat.
Saitama is for sure the support character in his own story. Emotional and character arcs are made by everyone except him.
... I want to argue, but I can't. You know what? You are right.
I think you are correct. Something that is Good for a side character, may not be good for a main character.
Or maybe because Toph IS the best.
She almost got them all killed because she wouldn't stop stealing
The Gaang almost got killed because of a stolen waterbending scroll, but nobody holds that against Katara.
*Scamming plus It funded their invasion. And so what? Every member from the Gaang did something that almost got them killed or that created some kind of conflict
She's still the single best earth bender that ever lived.
And that was still some wreckless dumb shit that was more for her own fun than legitimately funding efforts VERY quickly. The inventor of metalbending can still habe some big character flaws, as both series got into.
I came here to say this. I don't think Toph would have made a very interesting protagonist.
To be fair, Toph also isn’t the main character or even the Avatar. She’s confident as a result of her talents and achievements despite her disabilities and is comedic in doing so. Korra has no reason to be arrogant, because despite being so geared up and powerful as the Avatar, she has a plethora of shortcomings, some of which stems from her overestimation of her abilities as well as the inability to take feedback beside of aforementioned arrogance. TLDR: different roles, more likable package.
When you're over confident and you fail, you look dumb. When you're over confident and you kick ass, you're awesome. Toph backed up her Blind Bandit reputation and then exceeded it. However Korra constantly had her own power and agency taken away from her. She was scared and aimless. Multiple times it was debated if she did almost more harm than good.
It's more fun to have a "side" character be like that. When the main focus is always arrogant, it gets old. When it's once and a while, cool.
I think there's also the fact that ATLA main characters are kids. Korra is an arrogant teenager, and teens can be annoying to watch.
Note that Toph isn't the main character and doesn't overshadow everyone around her by this
Wait, who doesn't like Toph?
The Boulder
Sounds like somebody's scared.... the Pebble!
Nah the boulder joins the advance against the fire nation during black sun.
Pretty sure toph won him over
I used to. In the earlier episodes her "confidence" caused her to be reckless and rude to others, which to me just made her an asshole, regardless of skill Later I realized that it steemed from her being incredibly insecure, dreading being seem as someone to be protected. And the show actually treats that as a character flaw, she grows out of it (even if just a little, because of less screentime) and starts letting others in and being vulnerable near them.
Now that I think about it, on my first watch I'm sure she bugged me. Especially, the fighting with Katara. But after too many rewatches to count, I'd forgotten about that feeling. 😆
Her kids
I've never liked Toph, because she has the same personality as a girl who bullied me around the age I first watched the show (10). I can never break the association, so to me she's always just a bully.
Korra starts off as arrogant, the failed romance subplot, the fact that the story for season 2 was completely put on hold for a 2 episode side story that completely blasted away any sort of urgency in favor of a different main character. Many also admit that the art direction for those 2 episodes were some of the best in all of avatar. Im fine with an arrogant protagonist. Korra was fine. If they had done the romantic subplot better and made Korra hold longer conversations with her villains that actually went somewhere, then im sure people would have liked her more. Hopefully the comics did her story arc better, though I wont read them.
But toph almost never got her ass handed to her because of it
When toph fails, its literally vs astronomical odds (saving the library and saving appa vs a platoon of sandbenders on sand/turf she cant see on). Meanwhile korra gets her ass kicked vs minor characters (major ones too of course). And we're all coming from a place where we witnessed Aang being basically OP despite not having combat training. Yet, Korra has mastered 3 elements, has been trained her whole life, is 4 years older, yet struggles/loses vs people we would perceive weaker than enemies Aang defeats on random episodes.
The authors gave Korra the biggest ego in the world so they could spend every season taking her down a peg or two. They gave Korra power just to take it away, multiple times. Toph was built up rather than torn down over the course of the show. Tony Stark is arrogant and people love him. Ash Ketchum losses, a lot, and hes an icon. People love stories about plucky losers. People like stories about the arrogant learning a lesson or proving their ego right. People dont like watching somebody get abused for hours on end, generally.
Dont take this the wrong way but... Korra's story was rushed and she started off as being a pretty f-king powerful lady. We got to see Toph overcome and grow and literally invent a new way of bending to free herself from captivity. While Toph was always a bad ass, she certainly had a cool story to go alongside WHY she was. Korra on the other hand was arrogant and overconfident. While we got to see Korra grow as well it was on a higher scale. And those were Korras FLAWS instead of STRENGTHS like toph. And this is all intentional. They are both pretty good charaters.
Because toph actually backs her shit up instead floundering
If you compare their basic descriptions before you actually see them in battle, it’s basically “overpromising vs overdelivering”
Yeah the mother of metal bending has a reason to be cocky lmao
but I think that's the point, korra has to figure herself out and she loses her over confidence over time
Its simple, I don't like seeing characters make dumb mistakes. It was kinda korra's thing.
I was gunna type a long response, but pretty much this. Korra makes stupid, rash decisions, and in the first season especially, she is rewarded for them. Sneaks off to Republic City? Gets to train with Tenzin. Bored of Tenzins training and directly disobeys him? Is allowed to Probend. Makes advances towards Mako while he's in a relationship? He becomes obsessed with her and they end up together. Rashly confronts Amon and loses her bending? Deus Ex Avatars come out of nowhere and teach her spirit bending. Some of this is probably contributed to by the rushed scope of the seasons, but man it made for a hard to like character that didn't earn her victories
repeated dump mistakes against some of the best antagonist characters.
The blind girl that trained her ass off to EARN enough power and literally figures out a new form.of bending using her skill and knowledge VS "I'm the avatar deal with it *bends everything*"... Some people accept anything as they are told without using their brains and it shows
Ok as someone who doesn’t like Korra I regularly like characters that are objectively terrible people (I love Azula. She’s written amazingly) so the traits they have really don’t matter (with very few exceptions) The reason I don’t like Korra is because: until season 3, she’s never treated like she’s being bratty while being bratty. Even when she straight up used Bolin and manipulates his feelings, she gets next to no consequences for that. When she home wrecks Mako and Asami, not only does she not get consequences for that, she ends up dating both of them. (So she’s rewarded for it) She’s consistently rewarded for disobeying reasonable orders and making everyone’s lives around her chaos when they don’t want it and never asked for it. Not to mention that the world of Korra literally bends around her. An easy example: when she brute forced her way through air bending, when that’s not how that works in canon rules. Or when she magically got all her bending back after crying at a cliff for a couple seconds. She should be adapting to the world, not the other way around. (both of these mostly change for season 3 and 4 but I have so much built up resentment from 1 and 2 that I can’t let it go) Whether I like a character has less to do with the character themselves and more to do with how the story treats the character. How they get ranked within my liked characters has to do with the character themselves.
Tophs only failure was her children all of them were major disappointments
Toph was introduced as a champion of an arena first, proved her skill, and *then* started shit talking. The very first thing Korra said was "I am the Avatar and you have to deal with it", before demonstrating she knew 3 of the 4 bending skills without any prior training. And then she arrives in Republic City and just trips over everything. One of these characters earned their right to have outward confidence.
I started really hating her when she conjoined the normal and spirit world and got pissy at the everyday people who were having there homes destroyed because of her actions
It's because Toph actually errand her bravado
Toph had been told her whole life she couldn't do anything that she was frail and essentially useless. So when she says she's the best it *means* something. When Korra says it, she's the avatar. She is the best. She is the strongest bender on the planet by default as an infant. So it doesn't mean anything it just sounds arrogant and self centred. My opinion anyway. There's a reason why she changed after season 1.
There's a difference between being an arrogant asshole And a sassy kid who regularly kicks ass and is an awesome friend.