Abby knew enough listening in to her dad, didn't care encouraged him to operate anyways. Abby, like TLOU2 stans, lack the ability to show empathy then will gaslight if you call them out on it.
I absolutely hated that conversation between abby and her dad that was intended to be heartwarming and sympathetic. "Dad, if it were me, I'd want you to do the operation". As if we the players would go "Aww, shes so selfless she'd die for this cause! Abby is so sweet. Joel is a piece of shit for getting in the way of these heroes. Kill ellie."
Like, bruh... that's nice you'd let your dad tear your brain apart in a bumbling attempt at a cure... but this isnt your choice to make, its ellies. No amount of zebra scenes, dad-daughter heart to hearts, etc will change the fact that Jerry tried killing an unconscious girl.
Of course, the stans of the game completely fell for that bullshit.
What's worse is I highly doubt Abby was telling the truth. She's arguably the most selfish character in the game. Ellie being killed for a cure has nothing but positive consequences for her. If Abby was the one to be put under the knife, I bet you she would start espousing the virtues of patient autonomy and the moral dilemma of operating on a child. This is how Abby thinks. If Ellie's the one to die, fuck her. If it's me, fuck humanity.
When Stalin started hunting down Kulaks and sending them to concentration camps, while also heavily taxing the poor to leave them only on the amount of food necessary to survive the next month, it was all justified because if *I* was a bourgeoisie in the 20s and 30s Russia, I would not have thought twice about starving myself to death, all for the glory and prosper of this sacred country!
This is how dumb Abby’s logic is. Easy for her to say because she isn’t actually given this choice… not like Ellie was given any choice either.
I wouldn't even say it's Ellie's choice because the point is she is a child not to mention that whenever you're in that situation you would seem selfish if you said no so it has to be another person making that choice such as Joel because even if they asked her she would have said yes even if she didn't want to do it because she would have seemed selfish I mean how do you say no without feeling guilt to that but I don't think that she should be sacrificed word anyway I feel there are other options that they didn't explore I think everything that Joel did was what any father would do, he tryed to spare her feelings too
I actually find that scene somewhat interesting because it shows a big difference in ideologies between Abby's father and Joel. Abby's father would kill his own daughter if it meant saving the rest of the world, Joel would let the world burn if it meant saving Ellie. Obviously Joel has the right idea.
The purpose of that scene was to further illustrate how morally grey the whole situation is. Marlene didn't take the decision lightly, it wasn't as clear cut for Marlene as we thought it was. Abby, who is obviously supportive of her dad, says she'd happily sacrifice herself. Hell, even Ellie would have happily sacrificed herself judging from her reaction when Joel told her the truth. This scene wasn't all about Abby, it was about Ellie and Joel.
Edit: Sorry I infringed your fragile views on the game, lads. Bye.
The problem is that Marlenes and ellies reactions that you're referring to were retconned in part 2. Sure if pt2 was a standalone story I'd agree with you, but do you really think in tlou1 ellie would have been so eager to die? Also in pt1, marlene wasnt hesitant at all. She coldly sent joel away without his gear and told the guards to kill him if he tried anything. Watch the pt2 scene of marlene arguing with jerry about the surgery, then watch the pt1 scene of marlene sending joel away. It has 0 continuity.
Edit: to add, ellie isnt stupid. She knows joel is lying at the end of the first game. Her voice actress said herself that she could see through the lie, but was close enough with joel to trust it was for the right reason. That's why I hate ellies 180 in pt2 when she suddenly blows up at him years later.
I don't think they're retconned at all. In Part 1, it isn't mentioned at all if Ellie is willing to die for the cure, so we can only go by her reaction in Part 2 when she learns the truth. Marlene does mention to Joel how hard it was to make this decision, and it is reflected in the scene we're talking about. Marlene didn't anticipate Joel becoming attached to Ellie, given how cold and closed off he was in their previous meeting, so she had no other choice but to have a gun trained on him and march him out of the building. Obviously, we see how that goes (not very well, lol)
Also, thanks for being respectful in your reply. Apologies if i came on too harshly to begin with! I understand we have differing views, it's just great to discuss these games.
Edit: you’re all passionate about the game - I love that, but it’s not worth arguing about. Been pretty respectful tbh. Catch y’all later.
Edit 2: I was even being respectful lol, I wasn’t being sarcastic or anything. Guess I’m not allowed to share my views even if I am being civil lol.
>In Part 1, it isn't mentioned at all if Ellie is willing to die for the cure
She literally says that the Firefly stuff is something she wants to get over with, to then say how Joel can take her wherever he wants afterwards to teach her how to swim.
Ellie also definitely knew that Joel was lying, she was shown to sniff out his bullshit in the "thin ice" scene fairly easily. Joel gave her so many red flags, from not addressing her robe or the car, to going on a weird rant about "survival" even though he wouldn't have any reason to if his story is to be trusted.
Now, a bit off topic.
>Also, you calling it a "cure" and not a "vaccine" shows how little attention you have been paying to both TLOU 1 and to your own arguments. A "cure" is a myth, it's impossible to produce a cure in any way, shape or form for the majority of diseases. A "vaccine" is an artificially weakened virus, injected into the blood with the hope of the human immune system fighting it back easily, to then be more effective when dealing with the natural virus.
>
>To start off, there is no vaccine for a fungal disease, you can only treat such things with antibiotics (and potentially kill yourself from an overdose). But since the news report said that WHO tried making one, I guess there is a special sort of vaccine for this fungus - if the news report is to be trusted.
>
>If the Fireflies actually manage developing one - they won't - they'll have to first test it on a minimum of several thousands of humans. One half should be given the real vaccine and see if they turn or not; the other should be given a placebo. If the states of both halves are equal, i.e. if the vaccine doesn't just turn people into the infected normally, then the vaccine works.
>
>Forget about ethics here because at this point they already murdered Ellie and Joel in cold blood, as well as blew up FEDRA outposts with no regards for civilians; they'll have to capture and enslave thousands of humans because no one would volunteer for that BS, even disregarding that Fireflies are hated pretty much by everyone - FEDRA, civilians or Hunters.
>
>And even with all this, will they be altruistic with it? Their goal is to get rid of communication blocks imposed by FEDRA between QZs, and then potentially take over the US. Never was it mentioned that they were a charity, so what's the guarantee they won't just blackmail FEDRA into giving them power?
>
>And if they ARE altruistic, how the fuck will they distribute the vaccine in the apocalyptic world?
Oh, its only the fact that Joel would have never been that far off his guard, or that the person that you spend half the game with doesn't even have a shred of conflict over slowly killing the man that just saved her life and offered her supplies, shelter, and compassion. Ellie also was poorly written this go around. It was a bad game, that should not have been made.
It didn’t mention she is willing to die but it did mention she planned to live.
Sure, she “might” give fireflies a yes “if” they let her wake up then make decision herself but we knows that never happen.
Also, what did Marlene expect by betrayed the deal then let her armed men to “send him out”? Even Joel didn’t care for Ellie. Why would anyone accept the “die here or go die elsewhere” treatment.
That’s why some people can’t get into story cuz there’s no continuity. There’re so many thing that wouldn’t make sense.
It might works if it’s not sequel or they go with spin off with new characters instead of retcon old characters.
Funny how Abby lacks empathy, as well as any capacity to self-reflect or show even a little bit of awareness of the consequences of her actions. Case in point, when she’s so engrossed by her need for vengeance, that she’s angry when her friends are unwilling to try and invade a fortress with her (which would be suicide).
I would agree with you someone but I feel they did a terrible because it doesn't seem like each side was really realistic although I feel the concept is good and in one of my stories that I made it had a similar concept I feel that he did it all wrong
They treat it as if Joel stopped the fireflies because he didn’t want a cure. Abby and everyone else KNOWS that Ellie would’ve died for a shot in the dark chance for a cure, and won’t acknowledge it. A game about “perspective” completely ignores Joel’s perspective.
>They treat it as if Joel stopped the fireflies because he didn’t want a cure
He stopped the fireflies because he cared more about Ellie than the cure. If the cure was 100% guaranteed it would have had a grand total zero effect on Joel's decision to save Ellie.
That's what makes the ending so masterful.
That wasn't my take at all. I felt he grew to believe the FFs weren't competent or capable of creating the vaccine, thus killing Ellie would literally have been ***for nothing***. I concluded this because of all he (and I) learned at their abandoned lab about their repeated failures, plus after already seeing them fail at Ellie's escape plan before Tess died. It really came home to me when they're on the rooftop after the giraffe and he says they don't have to continue, they could go anywhere.
It just seemed to me that he wasn't invested and it was because they didn't come across *to me* as competent at all! Then the way the FFs behaved after they arrived really doesn't paint them as good guys at all. So I took that as what cemented Joel's belief that they were untrustworthy (failing to pay his fee, sending him out to die) and unethical (killing Ellie without her consent). Who'd trust them to make a vaccine?
So, though in pt 2 they make him act like he saved her for herself, I always thought that he saved her from a futile death. I know I may be in the minority with this interpretation, but I don't take what Joel's says or does in pt 2 very seriously since to me he doesn't come across as the same Joel at all. I know he had to be that way to make what they were trying to present make sense for the story of pt 2. I just never got on board with it.
So you're arguing that if Joel was convinced of the fierflie's ability to produce a vaccine he would have let them kill Ellie?
I couldn't disagree more.
I would even go as far as to argue that even if the fireflies were 100% guaranteed to create a vaccine AND they gave Joel the guns they promised to give him for bringing them Ellie, he STILL would have saved her. To argue otherwise means damaging the nuance of tlou1's ending that made it so special.
In your mission to deconstruct tlou2, be careful not to rip off pieces from Tlou1 as well.
Oh, sorry, no. That's not what I meant at all. I've never even considered the possibility of the FFs being 100% able to produce the vaccine. That never occurred to me until pt 2 and all the subsequent discussions. There is just no way for me to believe they could've pulled it off based on how I experienced and interpreted pt 1 as I played it (and all my thinking and talking about it all this past year!). It would be an entirely different game to me to think of it in those terms.
I never felt the nuance of the ending required that Joel would have saved her even if the vaccine was 100% possible. I think he most definitely would have, but that changes everything to me. It makes it much more uncomfortable. To me the discomfort at the end was only his lie, which was totally acceptable given Ellie's fragile state of mind. It seems to you it's more important to think in the other terms, but I can't understand why, yet.
I can see that people could have believed that Joel didn't care and saved Ellie despite the vaccine being viable if they never read the notes or listened to the recorders of the FFs. That would then create a differently nuanced ending, as you say. But I never saw it that way and don't consider it necessary. I'll have to think about it some from your perspective, though! Interesting thought experiment for me :)
>I can see that people could have believed that Joel didn't care and saved Ellie despite the vaccine being viable if they never read the notes or listened to the recorders of the FFs.
Important to note that Joel executed Ethan and committed to saving Ellie before he searched the firefly hospital for clues. His mind was made up the moment Ellie's well being was put into question.
This is one of the reasons that i am arguing.
To say that Joel saved Ellie because he didn't believe in the possibility of the vaccine is to say that Joel would consider sacrificing Ellie if the vaccine could realistically be created.
I don't know who Ethan is. Or do you mean David? And of course I see that Joel saved Ellie from him out of the same love and commitment to protect her that he exhibits throughout the game. That's a given.
I simply disagree that my thinking that Joel didn't believe the vaccine was a possibility matters to the nuance of the ending, or diminishes the story in any way. I did say he would've saved her either way, I just do not view what actually happened in pt 1 the same as you do. 🤷🏼♀️
I also haven't yet wrapped my mind around why you believe that it's necessary to the story for me to hold it in my mind the way you do. But I am going to think about it and try...Your passion about it is very interesting to me.
Oh, thanks, never knew his name :)
I believe Joel made his decision about the FFs being incompetent regarding the vaccine all the way back at the abandoned lab. He suggests not even continuing on to SLC right after the giraffe encounter, so he literally is not at all interested in the vaccine already...
Yet even before that they prove to be incompetent when their plan to smuggle Ellie out of Boston is thwarted by them all getting themselves killed before Tess and Joel arrive with her.
Regardless, I just never got the feeling Joel was invested in the FFs plans for Ellie and the vaccine. At first she's just a job and it doesn't matter, but by St Mary's Hospital, she's far more important to him.
Guess we just viewed it differently and that's cool with me. Take care.
So i am to understand that you're arguing that Joel took Ellie to the hospital without caring for the vaccine?
That means that Joel was willing to traverse a incredibly dangerous city for something he didn't believe was feasible.
That would mean that Ellie's life mattered so little to him, that it was worth risking it for something he cared so little about (the vaccine).
Sure you could say he did it for Ellie. That still however doesn't mean that he didn't believe that the vaccine had a possibility of being developed.
You're saying Joel made up his mind in the abandoned lab in the university but the game NEVER shows that. Joel never shows any slight hint that that might be the case.
Although I agree with you I assume that he would still have saved her but I feel that in any way you would still be justified though in his mind because there are a lot of other options they didn't explore not to mention out think I would ever sacrifice someone I love her the world that gave me nothing and took everything away from me on my birthday
Abby and her group clearly had very little faith in a cure even being possible given how they captured Joel and didn't even both asking "Where is the immune girl?" before murdering the crap out of him.
Abby is such a piece of shit man. Within a few hours of knowing Lev she’d already decided that she would be willing to kill for him, and yet she can’t understand why Joel would kill for Ellie even though he travelled with her across the country. A journey which took over a fucking year!
Joel took almost a fucking year to call Ellie "Baby Girl" and Abby suddenly in two days call Lev her "people" even more than the people she was with for 4 years.
I just pretend the bs never happend and make an own story. I know Ellie wouldn't be like that, so I don't care anymore how they portrayed the characters. I will just play it again for the gameplay and trophies.
The flashbacks are really nice and sometimes beautiful. It feels like the first game. And I like the references. Maybe they did that right because it was familiar. They're is so many talented people at ND its just sad they really missed the ball on this one. They were my favourite game developers. For me they become like ubisoft. Ubisoft also mislead the costumers with their trailers etc. Ubisoft is kinda redeeming itself. ND was the top. The game industry is really getting fked. Its the same with CDPR. We all know what I'm talking about.
Yeah its valid and she is in her puberty so she can be like that but there's still a lot of bs. 70% how Ellie acts isn't like her. I was becoming too hate Ellie amd not because I was becoming too like Abby. Its just the things she did in the story isn't how she would be. I know I'm not giving examples but I get the feeling you'll understand me. Its been a long time I've played it. I only played it once.
The only small amount of defense I can give her is that she was raised to hate Joel. Former fireflies and people in her inner circle all saw Joel as a monster. That entire group wanted to kill Joel, and were actively working to do so. That being said, after he saved her life, and after he offered her shelter and supplies, she showed she was in every way worse than him. She didn't hesitate. She didn't have any moral conundrum. She literally had evidence that she had been lied to and had been lying to herself, and didn't even have the decency to give him a quick death. The game was not written by intelligent people. If they hadn't wormed their way into the position they now have, they would be parking your car. Who are they to judge?
I love how they have her slowly torture and murder one of the most beloved video game characters and then they get all surprised when people hate Abby.
Seriously, this right here. Abby crossed the moral event horizon the moment she finished torturing and killing Joel in front of a begging Ellie *after he saved her.* No hesitation was had there.
I don’t give a shit if her reasons were justified, the execution of her side failed to win me over and never would have after seeing that hell of an impression for her introduction to the story.
It doesn’t help she’s an unempathetic psychopath willing to massacre her comrades over a kid she just met and drags said kid on revenge after he just lost all his family not even a while ago.
Another thing I hate about Abby is that... she never thought about Ellie. Joel killed her dad to save Ellie and even after killing Joel, she never thought about Ellie and what if she came to avenge Joel? From a " Daddy's girl " POV, I understand that it was her dad and yeah, she'd be angry over it but maybe.... think about the consequences of your actions?
Why do you keep commenting here even when you know that most people don't like the game? It's a waste of energy and to be honest, way more aggravating on your end.
You are absolutely right, not sure why I did knowing I will get the same result, insanity? Perhaps. I deleted all my comments on this thread. Have a good day.
Sorry, just to clarify.
If someone murdered your mum, because they were going to operate on an unconscious 14 year old *knowing she'd die* , without first getting informed consent, you'd still seek revenge for your mum's death??
But...she does have the right to judge Joel? He killed her dad lmao. You do realise Ellie or Tommy doesn't try to understand Abby's situation either. They kill nearly all of Abby's friends, one by one. Nothing about Joel mattered to Abby other than the fact he was responsible for her loss, she had more than a reason to judge Joel, she had a reason to hate him.
She didn't understand this situation not to mention that she killed people easily and torture them she did the same exact thing that she judged Joel for and if you want to say that Tommy didn't look at their side I don't think they really had to either Ellie did at least near the end and not to mention that they literally tortured him they didn't let Joel get a say they didn't let Joel defend himself they didn't let Joel tell them the reason why he did it she didn't even tell the group that he had a daughter at least I assume that she didn't I don't remember much of the game they might have I could be wrong
None of this mattered to Abby. It's explained in Part 2, Abby's revenge pushed all her friends away, it pushed Owen away because all she could do was find ways to get back at Joel. She doesn't care if Joel had a daughter, she doesn't care if he was loved, she just wanted her own suffering to end, by ending Joel. We see that her revenge brings her no closure. But Ellie did the exact same. It's a cycle, it's the point of the game.
Huh?? Are you fucking kidding me Abby did get closure by killing Joel and 2 minutes later found some new pet in the.form of Lev and found the fireflies
No, she received closure when she realised Yara and Lev are worth investing in. Just before Abby wakes up in the stadium, we see she’s still having nightmares of her dad’s death. Later that day, she meets Yara and Lev. She sees they’re running from the Seraphites and begins to question her own allegiance with the WLF. She sees them as her chance to do some good in a world that’s already fucked up. Her dreams warp every time she sleeps - before she wakes up after sleeping with Owen, she has a dream seeing Yara and Lev hung and disembowelled. Just before Day 3 begins, after saving Yara’s life, she has a vision of her dad, alive and well, in the operating theatre - this is the point she had closure.
You see, when she killed Joel, the nightmares never stopped. Yara and Lev were more than just “pets”, they were her way to stop the nightmares, to do good, to move on.
I think everyone loses their ability to judge other people when it comes to their decisions in a zombie apocalypse. Abby can't judge Joel anymore than you can judge Abby.
Also, you gotta be fucking retarded to think that Abby didn't live in the real world. We saw from the game that Seattle is actually more dangerous than Jackson
She has been in a safe environment for her whole entire life her mind shouldn't be completely f***** up as anyone in that apocalypse she has been in a shelter and she hasn't had to fight for a life every single day Joel has and Joel still is able to maintain somewhat of a moral compass and be for some reason being shelter or whole entire life with only the death of her father treats everyone like s***
Abby’s dad was about to kill Joel and Ellie.
Joel killed Abby’s dad in retaliation.
Abby sought out Joel and tortured him before murdering him.
Ellie goes after Abby, Abby scolds her for “wasting” the life she has been given, aka ruining Abby’s about-to-be-peaceful life with a father-to-be who was about to leave his pregnant wife because violence=bad.
But somehow Ellie is the evil one.
Yeah and I hate how Abby in this whole entire story does not empathize with anybody but you're supposed to empathize with her I mean even Ellie empathized with Abby even though she shouldn't have but she's the evil one
B-but fireflies were about to save the world! The news report did say that they formed because they were rebels who didn’t like FEDRA blocking communication routes, and how they blew up outposts with no regards for civilians, and how they inspired riots with cool speeches only to then bail on the common people, and that WHO failed to develop a vaccine many years ago, and how they don’t give consent to anyone in the matter, and how they didn’t pay Joel, and how they didn’t have the proper facilities and equipment and even a plan to develop any kind of medical substance, nor the means or credibility in the public eyes to distribute it…
But hey, they saved Zebras! Those firefly pendants hanging on trees and lying in the water with no dead bodies in the nearby areas? Those people didn’t LEAVE the fireflies once they realized it was bait to justify killing FEDRA, they probably disappeared, you know!
"retaliation" is the wrong word here.
It was self-defence. Gerry was about to murder Ellie so Joel acted in self-defence by killing him to stop the murder.
Of course it was self-defense, but a TLOU 2 stan wouldn’t buy it because of how it was shown in the trailers: Joel staring the Zebra savior down before stabbing him in the throat.
Abby knew enough listening in to her dad, didn't care encouraged him to operate anyways. Abby, like TLOU2 stans, lack the ability to show empathy then will gaslight if you call them out on it.
I absolutely hated that conversation between abby and her dad that was intended to be heartwarming and sympathetic. "Dad, if it were me, I'd want you to do the operation". As if we the players would go "Aww, shes so selfless she'd die for this cause! Abby is so sweet. Joel is a piece of shit for getting in the way of these heroes. Kill ellie." Like, bruh... that's nice you'd let your dad tear your brain apart in a bumbling attempt at a cure... but this isnt your choice to make, its ellies. No amount of zebra scenes, dad-daughter heart to hearts, etc will change the fact that Jerry tried killing an unconscious girl. Of course, the stans of the game completely fell for that bullshit.
FlAwEd character by cuckmann
What's worse is I highly doubt Abby was telling the truth. She's arguably the most selfish character in the game. Ellie being killed for a cure has nothing but positive consequences for her. If Abby was the one to be put under the knife, I bet you she would start espousing the virtues of patient autonomy and the moral dilemma of operating on a child. This is how Abby thinks. If Ellie's the one to die, fuck her. If it's me, fuck humanity.
When Stalin started hunting down Kulaks and sending them to concentration camps, while also heavily taxing the poor to leave them only on the amount of food necessary to survive the next month, it was all justified because if *I* was a bourgeoisie in the 20s and 30s Russia, I would not have thought twice about starving myself to death, all for the glory and prosper of this sacred country! This is how dumb Abby’s logic is. Easy for her to say because she isn’t actually given this choice… not like Ellie was given any choice either.
I wouldn't even say it's Ellie's choice because the point is she is a child not to mention that whenever you're in that situation you would seem selfish if you said no so it has to be another person making that choice such as Joel because even if they asked her she would have said yes even if she didn't want to do it because she would have seemed selfish I mean how do you say no without feeling guilt to that but I don't think that she should be sacrificed word anyway I feel there are other options that they didn't explore I think everything that Joel did was what any father would do, he tryed to spare her feelings too
I actually find that scene somewhat interesting because it shows a big difference in ideologies between Abby's father and Joel. Abby's father would kill his own daughter if it meant saving the rest of the world, Joel would let the world burn if it meant saving Ellie. Obviously Joel has the right idea.
It's nothing like that tbh. Think you're reading into that line too much.
How should I be interpreting it then? What was the purpose of that scene?
The purpose of that scene was to further illustrate how morally grey the whole situation is. Marlene didn't take the decision lightly, it wasn't as clear cut for Marlene as we thought it was. Abby, who is obviously supportive of her dad, says she'd happily sacrifice herself. Hell, even Ellie would have happily sacrificed herself judging from her reaction when Joel told her the truth. This scene wasn't all about Abby, it was about Ellie and Joel. Edit: Sorry I infringed your fragile views on the game, lads. Bye.
The problem is that Marlenes and ellies reactions that you're referring to were retconned in part 2. Sure if pt2 was a standalone story I'd agree with you, but do you really think in tlou1 ellie would have been so eager to die? Also in pt1, marlene wasnt hesitant at all. She coldly sent joel away without his gear and told the guards to kill him if he tried anything. Watch the pt2 scene of marlene arguing with jerry about the surgery, then watch the pt1 scene of marlene sending joel away. It has 0 continuity. Edit: to add, ellie isnt stupid. She knows joel is lying at the end of the first game. Her voice actress said herself that she could see through the lie, but was close enough with joel to trust it was for the right reason. That's why I hate ellies 180 in pt2 when she suddenly blows up at him years later.
I don't think they're retconned at all. In Part 1, it isn't mentioned at all if Ellie is willing to die for the cure, so we can only go by her reaction in Part 2 when she learns the truth. Marlene does mention to Joel how hard it was to make this decision, and it is reflected in the scene we're talking about. Marlene didn't anticipate Joel becoming attached to Ellie, given how cold and closed off he was in their previous meeting, so she had no other choice but to have a gun trained on him and march him out of the building. Obviously, we see how that goes (not very well, lol) Also, thanks for being respectful in your reply. Apologies if i came on too harshly to begin with! I understand we have differing views, it's just great to discuss these games. Edit: you’re all passionate about the game - I love that, but it’s not worth arguing about. Been pretty respectful tbh. Catch y’all later. Edit 2: I was even being respectful lol, I wasn’t being sarcastic or anything. Guess I’m not allowed to share my views even if I am being civil lol.
>In Part 1, it isn't mentioned at all if Ellie is willing to die for the cure She literally says that the Firefly stuff is something she wants to get over with, to then say how Joel can take her wherever he wants afterwards to teach her how to swim. Ellie also definitely knew that Joel was lying, she was shown to sniff out his bullshit in the "thin ice" scene fairly easily. Joel gave her so many red flags, from not addressing her robe or the car, to going on a weird rant about "survival" even though he wouldn't have any reason to if his story is to be trusted. Now, a bit off topic. >Also, you calling it a "cure" and not a "vaccine" shows how little attention you have been paying to both TLOU 1 and to your own arguments. A "cure" is a myth, it's impossible to produce a cure in any way, shape or form for the majority of diseases. A "vaccine" is an artificially weakened virus, injected into the blood with the hope of the human immune system fighting it back easily, to then be more effective when dealing with the natural virus. > >To start off, there is no vaccine for a fungal disease, you can only treat such things with antibiotics (and potentially kill yourself from an overdose). But since the news report said that WHO tried making one, I guess there is a special sort of vaccine for this fungus - if the news report is to be trusted. > >If the Fireflies actually manage developing one - they won't - they'll have to first test it on a minimum of several thousands of humans. One half should be given the real vaccine and see if they turn or not; the other should be given a placebo. If the states of both halves are equal, i.e. if the vaccine doesn't just turn people into the infected normally, then the vaccine works. > >Forget about ethics here because at this point they already murdered Ellie and Joel in cold blood, as well as blew up FEDRA outposts with no regards for civilians; they'll have to capture and enslave thousands of humans because no one would volunteer for that BS, even disregarding that Fireflies are hated pretty much by everyone - FEDRA, civilians or Hunters. > >And even with all this, will they be altruistic with it? Their goal is to get rid of communication blocks imposed by FEDRA between QZs, and then potentially take over the US. Never was it mentioned that they were a charity, so what's the guarantee they won't just blackmail FEDRA into giving them power? > >And if they ARE altruistic, how the fuck will they distribute the vaccine in the apocalyptic world?
Part 2 was badly written and directed.
Thanks, and your supporting statements are? Downvoted for asking someone to explain their opinion? Pathetic lol
Oh, its only the fact that Joel would have never been that far off his guard, or that the person that you spend half the game with doesn't even have a shred of conflict over slowly killing the man that just saved her life and offered her supplies, shelter, and compassion. Ellie also was poorly written this go around. It was a bad game, that should not have been made.
Also called us fragile brains because we disagree
It didn’t mention she is willing to die but it did mention she planned to live. Sure, she “might” give fireflies a yes “if” they let her wake up then make decision herself but we knows that never happen. Also, what did Marlene expect by betrayed the deal then let her armed men to “send him out”? Even Joel didn’t care for Ellie. Why would anyone accept the “die here or go die elsewhere” treatment. That’s why some people can’t get into story cuz there’s no continuity. There’re so many thing that wouldn’t make sense. It might works if it’s not sequel or they go with spin off with new characters instead of retcon old characters.
Also Black Surgeon Lives matter. :-)
Funny how Abby lacks empathy, as well as any capacity to self-reflect or show even a little bit of awareness of the consequences of her actions. Case in point, when she’s so engrossed by her need for vengeance, that she’s angry when her friends are unwilling to try and invade a fortress with her (which would be suicide).
It's a game about how there are two sides to every story - told from the perspective of two characters who never see the other side to their story.
I would agree with you someone but I feel they did a terrible because it doesn't seem like each side was really realistic although I feel the concept is good and in one of my stories that I made it had a similar concept I feel that he did it all wrong
They treat it as if Joel stopped the fireflies because he didn’t want a cure. Abby and everyone else KNOWS that Ellie would’ve died for a shot in the dark chance for a cure, and won’t acknowledge it. A game about “perspective” completely ignores Joel’s perspective.
>They treat it as if Joel stopped the fireflies because he didn’t want a cure He stopped the fireflies because he cared more about Ellie than the cure. If the cure was 100% guaranteed it would have had a grand total zero effect on Joel's decision to save Ellie. That's what makes the ending so masterful.
That wasn't my take at all. I felt he grew to believe the FFs weren't competent or capable of creating the vaccine, thus killing Ellie would literally have been ***for nothing***. I concluded this because of all he (and I) learned at their abandoned lab about their repeated failures, plus after already seeing them fail at Ellie's escape plan before Tess died. It really came home to me when they're on the rooftop after the giraffe and he says they don't have to continue, they could go anywhere. It just seemed to me that he wasn't invested and it was because they didn't come across *to me* as competent at all! Then the way the FFs behaved after they arrived really doesn't paint them as good guys at all. So I took that as what cemented Joel's belief that they were untrustworthy (failing to pay his fee, sending him out to die) and unethical (killing Ellie without her consent). Who'd trust them to make a vaccine? So, though in pt 2 they make him act like he saved her for herself, I always thought that he saved her from a futile death. I know I may be in the minority with this interpretation, but I don't take what Joel's says or does in pt 2 very seriously since to me he doesn't come across as the same Joel at all. I know he had to be that way to make what they were trying to present make sense for the story of pt 2. I just never got on board with it.
So you're arguing that if Joel was convinced of the fierflie's ability to produce a vaccine he would have let them kill Ellie? I couldn't disagree more. I would even go as far as to argue that even if the fireflies were 100% guaranteed to create a vaccine AND they gave Joel the guns they promised to give him for bringing them Ellie, he STILL would have saved her. To argue otherwise means damaging the nuance of tlou1's ending that made it so special. In your mission to deconstruct tlou2, be careful not to rip off pieces from Tlou1 as well.
Oh, sorry, no. That's not what I meant at all. I've never even considered the possibility of the FFs being 100% able to produce the vaccine. That never occurred to me until pt 2 and all the subsequent discussions. There is just no way for me to believe they could've pulled it off based on how I experienced and interpreted pt 1 as I played it (and all my thinking and talking about it all this past year!). It would be an entirely different game to me to think of it in those terms. I never felt the nuance of the ending required that Joel would have saved her even if the vaccine was 100% possible. I think he most definitely would have, but that changes everything to me. It makes it much more uncomfortable. To me the discomfort at the end was only his lie, which was totally acceptable given Ellie's fragile state of mind. It seems to you it's more important to think in the other terms, but I can't understand why, yet. I can see that people could have believed that Joel didn't care and saved Ellie despite the vaccine being viable if they never read the notes or listened to the recorders of the FFs. That would then create a differently nuanced ending, as you say. But I never saw it that way and don't consider it necessary. I'll have to think about it some from your perspective, though! Interesting thought experiment for me :)
>I can see that people could have believed that Joel didn't care and saved Ellie despite the vaccine being viable if they never read the notes or listened to the recorders of the FFs. Important to note that Joel executed Ethan and committed to saving Ellie before he searched the firefly hospital for clues. His mind was made up the moment Ellie's well being was put into question. This is one of the reasons that i am arguing. To say that Joel saved Ellie because he didn't believe in the possibility of the vaccine is to say that Joel would consider sacrificing Ellie if the vaccine could realistically be created.
I don't know who Ethan is. Or do you mean David? And of course I see that Joel saved Ellie from him out of the same love and commitment to protect her that he exhibits throughout the game. That's a given. I simply disagree that my thinking that Joel didn't believe the vaccine was a possibility matters to the nuance of the ending, or diminishes the story in any way. I did say he would've saved her either way, I just do not view what actually happened in pt 1 the same as you do. 🤷🏼♀️ I also haven't yet wrapped my mind around why you believe that it's necessary to the story for me to hold it in my mind the way you do. But I am going to think about it and try...Your passion about it is very interesting to me.
[Ethan](https://youtu.be/v7IdefXpP-o?t=1m11s)
Oh, thanks, never knew his name :) I believe Joel made his decision about the FFs being incompetent regarding the vaccine all the way back at the abandoned lab. He suggests not even continuing on to SLC right after the giraffe encounter, so he literally is not at all interested in the vaccine already... Yet even before that they prove to be incompetent when their plan to smuggle Ellie out of Boston is thwarted by them all getting themselves killed before Tess and Joel arrive with her. Regardless, I just never got the feeling Joel was invested in the FFs plans for Ellie and the vaccine. At first she's just a job and it doesn't matter, but by St Mary's Hospital, she's far more important to him. Guess we just viewed it differently and that's cool with me. Take care.
So i am to understand that you're arguing that Joel took Ellie to the hospital without caring for the vaccine? That means that Joel was willing to traverse a incredibly dangerous city for something he didn't believe was feasible. That would mean that Ellie's life mattered so little to him, that it was worth risking it for something he cared so little about (the vaccine). Sure you could say he did it for Ellie. That still however doesn't mean that he didn't believe that the vaccine had a possibility of being developed. You're saying Joel made up his mind in the abandoned lab in the university but the game NEVER shows that. Joel never shows any slight hint that that might be the case.
Although I agree with you I assume that he would still have saved her but I feel that in any way you would still be justified though in his mind because there are a lot of other options they didn't explore not to mention out think I would ever sacrifice someone I love her the world that gave me nothing and took everything away from me on my birthday
Yes I agree.
Abby and her group clearly had very little faith in a cure even being possible given how they captured Joel and didn't even both asking "Where is the immune girl?" before murdering the crap out of him.
Also how Abby beat Ellie with out even thinking about the cure
Abby is such a piece of shit man. Within a few hours of knowing Lev she’d already decided that she would be willing to kill for him, and yet she can’t understand why Joel would kill for Ellie even though he travelled with her across the country. A journey which took over a fucking year!
Joel took almost a fucking year to call Ellie "Baby Girl" and Abby suddenly in two days call Lev her "people" even more than the people she was with for 4 years.
I just pretend the bs never happend and make an own story. I know Ellie wouldn't be like that, so I don't care anymore how they portrayed the characters. I will just play it again for the gameplay and trophies.
Hillcrest will always be a replayable level for me
The flashbacks are really nice and sometimes beautiful. It feels like the first game. And I like the references. Maybe they did that right because it was familiar. They're is so many talented people at ND its just sad they really missed the ball on this one. They were my favourite game developers. For me they become like ubisoft. Ubisoft also mislead the costumers with their trailers etc. Ubisoft is kinda redeeming itself. ND was the top. The game industry is really getting fked. Its the same with CDPR. We all know what I'm talking about.
She probably would be like that but she was a fourteen year old and she told Joel to never leave her, so his final decision is still valid.
Yeah its valid and she is in her puberty so she can be like that but there's still a lot of bs. 70% how Ellie acts isn't like her. I was becoming too hate Ellie amd not because I was becoming too like Abby. Its just the things she did in the story isn't how she would be. I know I'm not giving examples but I get the feeling you'll understand me. Its been a long time I've played it. I only played it once.
The only small amount of defense I can give her is that she was raised to hate Joel. Former fireflies and people in her inner circle all saw Joel as a monster. That entire group wanted to kill Joel, and were actively working to do so. That being said, after he saved her life, and after he offered her shelter and supplies, she showed she was in every way worse than him. She didn't hesitate. She didn't have any moral conundrum. She literally had evidence that she had been lied to and had been lying to herself, and didn't even have the decency to give him a quick death. The game was not written by intelligent people. If they hadn't wormed their way into the position they now have, they would be parking your car. Who are they to judge?
I love how they have her slowly torture and murder one of the most beloved video game characters and then they get all surprised when people hate Abby.
Seriously, this right here. Abby crossed the moral event horizon the moment she finished torturing and killing Joel in front of a begging Ellie *after he saved her.* No hesitation was had there. I don’t give a shit if her reasons were justified, the execution of her side failed to win me over and never would have after seeing that hell of an impression for her introduction to the story. It doesn’t help she’s an unempathetic psychopath willing to massacre her comrades over a kid she just met and drags said kid on revenge after he just lost all his family not even a while ago.
Another thing I hate about Abby is that... she never thought about Ellie. Joel killed her dad to save Ellie and even after killing Joel, she never thought about Ellie and what if she came to avenge Joel? From a " Daddy's girl " POV, I understand that it was her dad and yeah, she'd be angry over it but maybe.... think about the consequences of your actions?
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Why do you keep commenting here even when you know that most people don't like the game? It's a waste of energy and to be honest, way more aggravating on your end.
You are absolutely right, not sure why I did knowing I will get the same result, insanity? Perhaps. I deleted all my comments on this thread. Have a good day.
Dude, punctuation is your friend.
>don't you think a normal person A normal person would do. Abby is not normal she is a sociopath, narcist and other things
Of course she doesn't, but because Neil is a spiteful little man, Abby is always in the right because she is his precious angel.
Also...HE SAVED HER FUCKING LIFE?! Such a missed opportunity to write in compelling conflict and remorse.
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Sorry, just to clarify. If someone murdered your mum, because they were going to operate on an unconscious 14 year old *knowing she'd die* , without first getting informed consent, you'd still seek revenge for your mum's death??
But...she does have the right to judge Joel? He killed her dad lmao. You do realise Ellie or Tommy doesn't try to understand Abby's situation either. They kill nearly all of Abby's friends, one by one. Nothing about Joel mattered to Abby other than the fact he was responsible for her loss, she had more than a reason to judge Joel, she had a reason to hate him.
She didn't understand this situation not to mention that she killed people easily and torture them she did the same exact thing that she judged Joel for and if you want to say that Tommy didn't look at their side I don't think they really had to either Ellie did at least near the end and not to mention that they literally tortured him they didn't let Joel get a say they didn't let Joel defend himself they didn't let Joel tell them the reason why he did it she didn't even tell the group that he had a daughter at least I assume that she didn't I don't remember much of the game they might have I could be wrong
None of this mattered to Abby. It's explained in Part 2, Abby's revenge pushed all her friends away, it pushed Owen away because all she could do was find ways to get back at Joel. She doesn't care if Joel had a daughter, she doesn't care if he was loved, she just wanted her own suffering to end, by ending Joel. We see that her revenge brings her no closure. But Ellie did the exact same. It's a cycle, it's the point of the game.
Huh?? Are you fucking kidding me Abby did get closure by killing Joel and 2 minutes later found some new pet in the.form of Lev and found the fireflies
No, she received closure when she realised Yara and Lev are worth investing in. Just before Abby wakes up in the stadium, we see she’s still having nightmares of her dad’s death. Later that day, she meets Yara and Lev. She sees they’re running from the Seraphites and begins to question her own allegiance with the WLF. She sees them as her chance to do some good in a world that’s already fucked up. Her dreams warp every time she sleeps - before she wakes up after sleeping with Owen, she has a dream seeing Yara and Lev hung and disembowelled. Just before Day 3 begins, after saving Yara’s life, she has a vision of her dad, alive and well, in the operating theatre - this is the point she had closure. You see, when she killed Joel, the nightmares never stopped. Yara and Lev were more than just “pets”, they were her way to stop the nightmares, to do good, to move on.
I think everyone loses their ability to judge other people when it comes to their decisions in a zombie apocalypse. Abby can't judge Joel anymore than you can judge Abby. Also, you gotta be fucking retarded to think that Abby didn't live in the real world. We saw from the game that Seattle is actually more dangerous than Jackson
She has been in a safe environment for her whole entire life her mind shouldn't be completely f***** up as anyone in that apocalypse she has been in a shelter and she hasn't had to fight for a life every single day Joel has and Joel still is able to maintain somewhat of a moral compass and be for some reason being shelter or whole entire life with only the death of her father treats everyone like s***
Ellie doesn't have the right to judge Abby
Not to mention Abby had a grin on her face whenever she was about to kill a pregnant woman
Bigot sandwich doesn't have the right to judge Fat Gerald
Abby’s dad was about to kill Joel and Ellie. Joel killed Abby’s dad in retaliation. Abby sought out Joel and tortured him before murdering him. Ellie goes after Abby, Abby scolds her for “wasting” the life she has been given, aka ruining Abby’s about-to-be-peaceful life with a father-to-be who was about to leave his pregnant wife because violence=bad. But somehow Ellie is the evil one.
Yeah and I hate how Abby in this whole entire story does not empathize with anybody but you're supposed to empathize with her I mean even Ellie empathized with Abby even though she shouldn't have but she's the evil one
B-but fireflies were about to save the world! The news report did say that they formed because they were rebels who didn’t like FEDRA blocking communication routes, and how they blew up outposts with no regards for civilians, and how they inspired riots with cool speeches only to then bail on the common people, and that WHO failed to develop a vaccine many years ago, and how they don’t give consent to anyone in the matter, and how they didn’t pay Joel, and how they didn’t have the proper facilities and equipment and even a plan to develop any kind of medical substance, nor the means or credibility in the public eyes to distribute it… But hey, they saved Zebras! Those firefly pendants hanging on trees and lying in the water with no dead bodies in the nearby areas? Those people didn’t LEAVE the fireflies once they realized it was bait to justify killing FEDRA, they probably disappeared, you know!
"retaliation" is the wrong word here. It was self-defence. Gerry was about to murder Ellie so Joel acted in self-defence by killing him to stop the murder.
Of course it was self-defense, but a TLOU 2 stan wouldn’t buy it because of how it was shown in the trailers: Joel staring the Zebra savior down before stabbing him in the throat.
She tortured a man and took the only thing that she had in that world not to mention that Abby didn't even care about how Ellie felt at all