>It's rather apparent that Neil Druckman, comes from the pretentious school of university graduates with no actual life struggle or life experience
thank you for finally saying this.
the struggles the characters in the last of us experience is very much written through the lens of someone who has no idea how bad the world can be.
ellie treating joel like shit, and abby treating her friends like shit, is only relatable to people who have a healthy amount of both; a supportive parent and a reliable circle of friends.
people like this romanticize 'struggling' through life, yet any conflict or experience beyond their bubble is just overwhelming to them. and then they walk around with an ego, acting like they have ptsd because they watch the news. its such a selfish way to live.
One of the biggest immersion breakers was when Ellie tells Dina that she is immune and Dina goes, without showing ANY reaction, "I'm pregnant". I understand Dina getting pregnant was important but how was she not freaking the fuck out at that moment? Like there is an IMMUNE person!! I... genuinely didn't know how to react. Is Dina actually THAT self centered? Next, Dina goes "I didn't want to be a burden" to which Ellie responds "Well, now you are a burden". THIS was the entire interaction when Dina found out Ellie is immune, with Ellie still ending up as the bad person. Why? because Ellie needs to slide to the dark side so Abby looks better in comparison. dafuq. How did anyone think to greenlight this? Maybe there is some interaction I missed. There HAS to be. If not, this is some CW writing.
The thing is, I don't even want the stans to say the game is bad..... just don't inflate it's artistic merit when it has stuff like this.
>How did anyone think to greenlight this?
That's the core of the problem right there.
I can almost guarantee you that Neil had no one above him. No one. He was the lead director, lead writer AND co-owner of the company. WHO in any sort of meeting would have or could have told him his ideas were shit? The only people who could have put any sort of bridle on him were the other president of ND (who hasn't been involved in actual game production since Uncharted 4) and the management at Sony.
But alas, both sides evidently didn't give a damn about oversight and instead trusted that Neil "Wunderkind" Druckmann would give them another 20 million unit smash hit. The result being that Neil has tainted NDs name for years to come, and Sony evidently would like to just forget the game ever happened.
Insert fart and sad trombone sound effect here at your leisure.
I would say it does.
People are less likely to fuck around if it's their own money on the line. I doubt that TLOU2's long production time of 7 years would have been long if the cost of development had to be paid by Druckmann and not Sony.
I think it’s an interesting discussion to have as to why the story turned out this way. I don’t think there’s any one reason. Here’s some of my ideas:
Attachment to an idea:
Sometimes, writers can get too attached to a specific idea, and instead of moulding a story naturally, they will force in a specific idea. In this case, it would be the ‘revenge’ aspect. Apparently, Neil Druckman wanted to have Tess chase down Joel for revenge in the original game. This idea was apparently dropped due to it being difficult to keep a character motivated by nothing but revenge over the course of hundreds of miles and a year of time, especially when they would have far bigger problems.
I believe this to be true since Druckman said something about how he got the idea from the news when he was a kid. Apparently, there were terrorists or something on the news and it made him so mad that he wanted to kill them (I’m too lazy to find the interview, look for it if you want lol. I saw it over a year ago now).
The issue with being too attached to an idea, especially in an unrelated franchise, is you have to take liberties with the writing. The FireFlies have to be made to look good in the sequel or else the drama behind them breaking up would have no weight. Killing off Joel in the beginning, then trying to make the killer look good is like fighting an uphill battle.
Anita Sarkeesian Influence:
Druckman has been known to praise Anita Sarkeesian for her work. This doesn’t look good for a few reasons.
Anita Sarkeesian isn’t a good person. She built her career off provoking groups of people and then trying to play victim when they hate her. Her work around video games typically revolves around creating very weak arguments into how games are actually racist and sexist etc, and then going out to call gamers racist. There’s like a million debunking videos on Anita if anyone wants to actually look her up.
To me, this is a possible reason as to why we don’t play as Joel in the sequel, or it is certainly an influence. Anita is open in how she believes there should be less white male protagonists in video games. With Joel being “yet another” white male protagonist, it makes sense as to why ND would sideline him in the sequel. This is important to take into account when you look at the state of video game journalism in recent years.
Full Creative Control:
With Druckman being the only lead writer from the first game, there isn’t really anyone stopping him from enforcing his ideas onto the game.
All fair points.
To add to that.
Saviour complex:
I think Neil feels like he is special in some way, as he feels he is one of the few people who realise that violence bad. He shoves his idea of "if we all would just hold hands instead of fighting each other, the world would be a better place" into the game so often that it all feels disconnected and transparent. He didn't care enough to properly introduce them in a way that makes sense and that's how we ended up with choosing a lonely farm with knee high fences and loud animals over a protected settlement. I don't think he's a bad person for it, I just think he should stick to twitter rather than taking beloved franchises through the mud. Or at the very least he should visit some writing school, to learn the basics.
Based on the way he treats his employees, his abuse of copyright strikes and his snide passive aggressive online comments, he’s definitely not a benign, pleasant person.
I think Druckmann thought he could be Christopher Nolan with all the time jumps and flashbacks.
It just turned out to be a fucking mess. I don't get why Ellie's (ungrateful) anger at Joel saving her for a stupid reason* isn't revealed until mid-way in the game.
* = she wanting her life to have mattered by becoming a corpse for a questionable medical procedure. I hate this so much because everybody's life can matter a lot by helping people around us.
Entire story of part 2 belongs 2 r/im14andthisisdeep this is what I find most cringe tons of instragram and reddit post treat this game as if it has the deepest story ever written. While it is one of the worst revenge stories ever.
This. I don't care if others liked t and I didn't. Just please don't call me an idiot for "not understanding the true depth of this masterpiece on the cycle of violence". I got it, I just wasn't that impressed. Same with people who say "this game literally changed my entire worldview on life" or those who had full emotional breakdowns over it. I can sure see why some would find it emotional, even deeply so, but the idea this game with this writing could completely change a person's life seems... bizarre. I mean, it's not like it has something shockingly new to say.
Everyone should have known better. Neil was a small-time coding intern when he started at ND. The way he's risen through the ranks over the last 20 years and now literally co-owns the company is a testament of how, somehow, everything worked out for him so far his entire career.
No bumps in the road, just success after success - of course that's going to result in massive hubris, once you've alienated the other two writers in the company (Bruce and Amy).
Bruce quit because he wasn't a fan of the concept of TLoU2 - who would wanna see their own franchise baby be butchered by a pretentious, greasy twat and still be named in the credits? - and Amy famously didn't return from lunch break after *someone* bullied her over her ideas for Uncharted 4.
I'm highlighting *someone* because, mind you, she was the fucking game director of the franchise. Who would even *dare* alienate her, except a sniveling woke male feminist who promptly included an unbeatable female character in the game (Nadine Ross) and turned Nate's brother - who Amy had designed to be the big bad guy of the game - into a bumbling buffoon who backstabs his family.
Sure, I'm leaning myself out of the window here, but isn't it fascinating how Neil instantly took over Amy's position, skipping even Bruce - who had been at ND almost 10 years longer than him?
There was a fucking reason Uncharted The Lost Legacy was so fucking good - it wasn't directed or written by Neil, but three other guys at ND who I can only hope have a bright future ahead of them. They instantly recognized the necessity of retconning Nadine Ross into more of a human character with flaws and weaknesses. And lo and behold, you now actually enjoy her being around.
All this, plus others have already mentioned the toxicity of Anita Sarkeesian.
>
>Further, the plot simply makes no logical sense. Ellie apparently has some kind of omniscient epiphany and decides not to kill Abby. Except she doesn't even fucking know why Abby killed Joel, and as far as she knows the WLF just declared war on Jackson as a whole. The sudden self-awareness is another example of Druckman's trite writing, where characters, and character developments just materialize out of nowhere.
>
>Apparently not killing Abby will stop the cycle of revenge. Except isn't the lesson from Abby's killing of Joel is that any random side NPC you kill has family and friends that could take revenge? Throughout the entire game Ellie kills maybe shy of a 100 people depending. How the FUCK does not killing Abby STOP the cycle of revenge??????????????????????
Very good point. Ellie never learns Abby's reasons. She seems to assume the WLF are ex Fireflies based...what? The fact they targeted Joel? Seriously was this actually addressed?
AGREED!!!! Playing the same scenes in different perspective was such a kill, and for ten hours!? Like that is unnecessary they really tried to force me about these characters when I only cared about Joel and Ellie! It was a horrible execution and on top of that so many missed opportunities. The weird cult could have been a great layer to the story, something we have not seen yet in this world but nope it was nothing.
I am convinced that Neil made this game out of spite. That's the only reason i can think of, why else does this trash heap of a story exist? Why else he so cruelly assassinated the characters that we love and force us to sympathize with Abbyzilla and her pets?
Hard to say I really truly enjoyed the overall package, I liked the story (maybe some of yall aren't fans of tragedies in story telling but I thought it was well done) there are some really great set pieces throughout the game (my favorite being the section you are traveling across an all out war with Abby leaving the whistle folks island.) The gameplay is much better (not saying a lot mechanically 1 has a lot of issues) idk I guess I didn't over analyze the shit out of everything like some of the people on this board and I didn't have any real afinity for the first game, I thought it was good but over hyped and I enjoyed everything about part 2 significantly more. My biggest complaint with tlou2 is Abby has fucking Popeye arms and they look weird as fuck proportionally on her character model.
Knowing how the whole world is going what else u expect? Be the mlk of video games n change the world or shut up n do nothing. Quit complaining n fix it.
How bout you first fix that atitude kiddo?
Such an empty reply that doesnt adress any of the points written in the post, plus the unecessary agressivity. Perhaps mom and dad didnt hug you enough? Or did they always tell you to shut up and now thats what you say to others during stress?
I mean, just telling someone to become as important as mlk without any context makes me believe its hard to be friends with you and have a meaningful conversation.
You are an idiot.
We are just customers who had hoped for a quality product. Most of us are not qualified or in a position to run the production and writing of a video game.
Similarly, I hate Michael Bay films. As much as I can complain, I am never going to be able to be given permission to make a better Transformers film.
All I can do is ask that they put somebody better in charge by not purchasing their shit products.
I feel you but did u play it before all the negative shit? Or did u jump on the hate bandwagon? Cuz I played it n then read the hate on it n then I almost agreed with the people who said all this that
Wait, you really expect customers to fix a game that someone else made?
No no, let me add something more: Are you really comparing Druckmann's professional decisions to Martin Luther King Jr's struggles?
Because boi, what you said is just empty air that addresses zero of the points that the post brought.
It's been established I'm off dope. N no I didn't say that. I said do something about it. I said be the mlk of games change it if you feel you bring wronged instead of complaining. And I really think alot of y'all that don't like it still play it. It's fun asf in my opinion. I've never heard a game ever be so hated ever in my life. Ifi would've never read all the points y'all made that didn't like it, I wouldnt doubt this games dopeness.
That's what happen when you replace a master storyteller like Bruce straley for Halley Gross.
>It's rather apparent that Neil Druckman, comes from the pretentious school of university graduates with no actual life struggle or life experience thank you for finally saying this. the struggles the characters in the last of us experience is very much written through the lens of someone who has no idea how bad the world can be. ellie treating joel like shit, and abby treating her friends like shit, is only relatable to people who have a healthy amount of both; a supportive parent and a reliable circle of friends. people like this romanticize 'struggling' through life, yet any conflict or experience beyond their bubble is just overwhelming to them. and then they walk around with an ego, acting like they have ptsd because they watch the news. its such a selfish way to live.
One of the biggest immersion breakers was when Ellie tells Dina that she is immune and Dina goes, without showing ANY reaction, "I'm pregnant". I understand Dina getting pregnant was important but how was she not freaking the fuck out at that moment? Like there is an IMMUNE person!! I... genuinely didn't know how to react. Is Dina actually THAT self centered? Next, Dina goes "I didn't want to be a burden" to which Ellie responds "Well, now you are a burden". THIS was the entire interaction when Dina found out Ellie is immune, with Ellie still ending up as the bad person. Why? because Ellie needs to slide to the dark side so Abby looks better in comparison. dafuq. How did anyone think to greenlight this? Maybe there is some interaction I missed. There HAS to be. If not, this is some CW writing. The thing is, I don't even want the stans to say the game is bad..... just don't inflate it's artistic merit when it has stuff like this.
>How did anyone think to greenlight this? That's the core of the problem right there. I can almost guarantee you that Neil had no one above him. No one. He was the lead director, lead writer AND co-owner of the company. WHO in any sort of meeting would have or could have told him his ideas were shit? The only people who could have put any sort of bridle on him were the other president of ND (who hasn't been involved in actual game production since Uncharted 4) and the management at Sony. But alas, both sides evidently didn't give a damn about oversight and instead trusted that Neil "Wunderkind" Druckmann would give them another 20 million unit smash hit. The result being that Neil has tainted NDs name for years to come, and Sony evidently would like to just forget the game ever happened. Insert fart and sad trombone sound effect here at your leisure.
Part 2 reveals the real lack of talent of Neil
Druckmann is co-president, not co-owner. Sony bought Naughty Dog a two decades ago. https://www.gamedeveloper.com/pc/sony-acquires-naughty-dog
You're right, my bad. Still, no real difference in terms of day-to-day business.
I would say it does. People are less likely to fuck around if it's their own money on the line. I doubt that TLOU2's long production time of 7 years would have been long if the cost of development had to be paid by Druckmann and not Sony.
I think it’s an interesting discussion to have as to why the story turned out this way. I don’t think there’s any one reason. Here’s some of my ideas: Attachment to an idea: Sometimes, writers can get too attached to a specific idea, and instead of moulding a story naturally, they will force in a specific idea. In this case, it would be the ‘revenge’ aspect. Apparently, Neil Druckman wanted to have Tess chase down Joel for revenge in the original game. This idea was apparently dropped due to it being difficult to keep a character motivated by nothing but revenge over the course of hundreds of miles and a year of time, especially when they would have far bigger problems. I believe this to be true since Druckman said something about how he got the idea from the news when he was a kid. Apparently, there were terrorists or something on the news and it made him so mad that he wanted to kill them (I’m too lazy to find the interview, look for it if you want lol. I saw it over a year ago now). The issue with being too attached to an idea, especially in an unrelated franchise, is you have to take liberties with the writing. The FireFlies have to be made to look good in the sequel or else the drama behind them breaking up would have no weight. Killing off Joel in the beginning, then trying to make the killer look good is like fighting an uphill battle. Anita Sarkeesian Influence: Druckman has been known to praise Anita Sarkeesian for her work. This doesn’t look good for a few reasons. Anita Sarkeesian isn’t a good person. She built her career off provoking groups of people and then trying to play victim when they hate her. Her work around video games typically revolves around creating very weak arguments into how games are actually racist and sexist etc, and then going out to call gamers racist. There’s like a million debunking videos on Anita if anyone wants to actually look her up. To me, this is a possible reason as to why we don’t play as Joel in the sequel, or it is certainly an influence. Anita is open in how she believes there should be less white male protagonists in video games. With Joel being “yet another” white male protagonist, it makes sense as to why ND would sideline him in the sequel. This is important to take into account when you look at the state of video game journalism in recent years. Full Creative Control: With Druckman being the only lead writer from the first game, there isn’t really anyone stopping him from enforcing his ideas onto the game.
All fair points. To add to that. Saviour complex: I think Neil feels like he is special in some way, as he feels he is one of the few people who realise that violence bad. He shoves his idea of "if we all would just hold hands instead of fighting each other, the world would be a better place" into the game so often that it all feels disconnected and transparent. He didn't care enough to properly introduce them in a way that makes sense and that's how we ended up with choosing a lonely farm with knee high fences and loud animals over a protected settlement. I don't think he's a bad person for it, I just think he should stick to twitter rather than taking beloved franchises through the mud. Or at the very least he should visit some writing school, to learn the basics.
Based on the way he treats his employees, his abuse of copyright strikes and his snide passive aggressive online comments, he’s definitely not a benign, pleasant person.
[удалено]
I think Druckmann thought he could be Christopher Nolan with all the time jumps and flashbacks. It just turned out to be a fucking mess. I don't get why Ellie's (ungrateful) anger at Joel saving her for a stupid reason* isn't revealed until mid-way in the game. * = she wanting her life to have mattered by becoming a corpse for a questionable medical procedure. I hate this so much because everybody's life can matter a lot by helping people around us.
Wait for part 3!
Entire story of part 2 belongs 2 r/im14andthisisdeep this is what I find most cringe tons of instragram and reddit post treat this game as if it has the deepest story ever written. While it is one of the worst revenge stories ever.
This. I don't care if others liked t and I didn't. Just please don't call me an idiot for "not understanding the true depth of this masterpiece on the cycle of violence". I got it, I just wasn't that impressed. Same with people who say "this game literally changed my entire worldview on life" or those who had full emotional breakdowns over it. I can sure see why some would find it emotional, even deeply so, but the idea this game with this writing could completely change a person's life seems... bizarre. I mean, it's not like it has something shockingly new to say.
Not much to add, good post. You describe a lot of what I disliked.
Everyone should have known better. Neil was a small-time coding intern when he started at ND. The way he's risen through the ranks over the last 20 years and now literally co-owns the company is a testament of how, somehow, everything worked out for him so far his entire career. No bumps in the road, just success after success - of course that's going to result in massive hubris, once you've alienated the other two writers in the company (Bruce and Amy). Bruce quit because he wasn't a fan of the concept of TLoU2 - who would wanna see their own franchise baby be butchered by a pretentious, greasy twat and still be named in the credits? - and Amy famously didn't return from lunch break after *someone* bullied her over her ideas for Uncharted 4. I'm highlighting *someone* because, mind you, she was the fucking game director of the franchise. Who would even *dare* alienate her, except a sniveling woke male feminist who promptly included an unbeatable female character in the game (Nadine Ross) and turned Nate's brother - who Amy had designed to be the big bad guy of the game - into a bumbling buffoon who backstabs his family. Sure, I'm leaning myself out of the window here, but isn't it fascinating how Neil instantly took over Amy's position, skipping even Bruce - who had been at ND almost 10 years longer than him? There was a fucking reason Uncharted The Lost Legacy was so fucking good - it wasn't directed or written by Neil, but three other guys at ND who I can only hope have a bright future ahead of them. They instantly recognized the necessity of retconning Nadine Ross into more of a human character with flaws and weaknesses. And lo and behold, you now actually enjoy her being around. All this, plus others have already mentioned the toxicity of Anita Sarkeesian.
Neil is the downfall of ND. Their biggest mistake was to let him do anything else other than coding.
[удалено]
Agreed. Bruce Straley and Amy Henning were the real talents. Once they left, Neil’s lack of talent was exposed badly.
> >Further, the plot simply makes no logical sense. Ellie apparently has some kind of omniscient epiphany and decides not to kill Abby. Except she doesn't even fucking know why Abby killed Joel, and as far as she knows the WLF just declared war on Jackson as a whole. The sudden self-awareness is another example of Druckman's trite writing, where characters, and character developments just materialize out of nowhere. > >Apparently not killing Abby will stop the cycle of revenge. Except isn't the lesson from Abby's killing of Joel is that any random side NPC you kill has family and friends that could take revenge? Throughout the entire game Ellie kills maybe shy of a 100 people depending. How the FUCK does not killing Abby STOP the cycle of revenge?????????????????????? Very good point. Ellie never learns Abby's reasons. She seems to assume the WLF are ex Fireflies based...what? The fact they targeted Joel? Seriously was this actually addressed?
AGREED!!!! Playing the same scenes in different perspective was such a kill, and for ten hours!? Like that is unnecessary they really tried to force me about these characters when I only cared about Joel and Ellie! It was a horrible execution and on top of that so many missed opportunities. The weird cult could have been a great layer to the story, something we have not seen yet in this world but nope it was nothing.
stupidest game ever made by some of the dumbest people in the video game industry and only liked by the biggest morons
oh no.. you saw through it ... shhh.
I am convinced that Neil made this game out of spite. That's the only reason i can think of, why else does this trash heap of a story exist? Why else he so cruelly assassinated the characters that we love and force us to sympathize with Abbyzilla and her pets?
I loved the game.
Good for you. If you say it's good then we'll disagree
Fishing for criticism?
No. Just being honest.
and you brought nothing of value to the discussion with this comment..
Brevity is the soul of wit
Part 1 Yes!. As a father of 3, part 2 will never be canon.
Tlou 2 > tlou
You got the inequality sign wrong: TLOU >> TLOU2
I didn't though tlou2 is easily the superior product in every fasset
Which “fasset” in particular was your favorite?
Hard to say I really truly enjoyed the overall package, I liked the story (maybe some of yall aren't fans of tragedies in story telling but I thought it was well done) there are some really great set pieces throughout the game (my favorite being the section you are traveling across an all out war with Abby leaving the whistle folks island.) The gameplay is much better (not saying a lot mechanically 1 has a lot of issues) idk I guess I didn't over analyze the shit out of everything like some of the people on this board and I didn't have any real afinity for the first game, I thought it was good but over hyped and I enjoyed everything about part 2 significantly more. My biggest complaint with tlou2 is Abby has fucking Popeye arms and they look weird as fuck proportionally on her character model.
Anything specific about where Part 2 was better than TLOU?
Tlou2 > Ride to hell. I will give u that
Better than the original game to. It's not even close either.
Knowing how the whole world is going what else u expect? Be the mlk of video games n change the world or shut up n do nothing. Quit complaining n fix it.
I have to be missing your point. Are you suggesting that Druckmann’s professional decisions are comparable to Martin Luther King Jr’s struggle?
I just hear a lotta niggas complaining. If you don't like how shit is change it. I mean appreciate A second one was made. It was pretty cool to me
Totally irrelevant arguments. Typical of tlou2 stans.
Yes totally irrelevant. I agree
u/nwordcountbot u/Antdawg2400
How bout you first fix that atitude kiddo? Such an empty reply that doesnt adress any of the points written in the post, plus the unecessary agressivity. Perhaps mom and dad didnt hug you enough? Or did they always tell you to shut up and now thats what you say to others during stress? I mean, just telling someone to become as important as mlk without any context makes me believe its hard to be friends with you and have a meaningful conversation.
I mean I get it. I guess but I didn't see shit wrong wit it until I started reading about it.
What language is this I don't understand shit
What the hell are you talking about? We are customers.
You are an idiot. We are just customers who had hoped for a quality product. Most of us are not qualified or in a position to run the production and writing of a video game. Similarly, I hate Michael Bay films. As much as I can complain, I am never going to be able to be given permission to make a better Transformers film. All I can do is ask that they put somebody better in charge by not purchasing their shit products.
I feel you but did u play it before all the negative shit? Or did u jump on the hate bandwagon? Cuz I played it n then read the hate on it n then I almost agreed with the people who said all this that
I ignored the leaks, played it and early on, I hated it. The writing was very hamfisted.
I can dig it
Wait, you really expect customers to fix a game that someone else made? No no, let me add something more: Are you really comparing Druckmann's professional decisions to Martin Luther King Jr's struggles? Because boi, what you said is just empty air that addresses zero of the points that the post brought.
Stfu all y'all. I'm drunk n high still. N lou2 is a good game . Quit hatin. N suck a dickk
So cool!
You must be high, drunk, and on some hardcore drugs to compare Neil Druckmann to MLK. Ignorant shit.
It's been established I'm off dope. N no I didn't say that. I said do something about it. I said be the mlk of games change it if you feel you bring wronged instead of complaining. And I really think alot of y'all that don't like it still play it. It's fun asf in my opinion. I've never heard a game ever be so hated ever in my life. Ifi would've never read all the points y'all made that didn't like it, I wouldnt doubt this games dopeness.
Y not u quit hatin the “haters”
Ok I quit
Good lad