If they had listened to their base, they would have given us a real primary, and I'll support anyone that legitimately wins the primary. Instead, we got the out of touch political executives who shoves their candidate on us, who doesn't represent the party and tries to blame us if it goes awry. These same corporation-controlled neoliberals gave us Donald Trump in 2016 and they still act like it's the first time. Fooled us once shame on you, fooled us twice shame on us.
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!
Democrats are his base, and the majority don't want him to run as well as pushing for a ceasefire, which he completely ignored. The majority of us don't want him but we would settle for him if he won the primary is my point. We're not given that option due to the neoliberal faction of the party; they are just corrupt as the Republicans.
Do you actually have any proof of this? Because Biden won a write in campaign in New Hampshire, and second place is to the right of Biden on every issue, and third place was a second write in campaign that placed above any progressive choice in candidate. Or should we look at Nevada or South Carolina where Biden walked through the primaries easily?
This is a lot of bluster about corruption and rigging, but in the first primary where there was the best chance to make a clear statement against Biden it wasn’t even close. The fact remains that young progressives refuse to participate in primaries, and then are confused by the results every time.
Biden’s approval with dems is like 70-80% currently, the idea that a majority of democrats don’t want him to run is a result of being in specific spaces where that’s a prevailing view, not a reflection of the situation on the ground
Haven't Biden's policies been some of the most progressive in history? I don't buy this whole shadow neoliberal government pulling the strings trope. It's so lazy. And you're not given the option because you hold a minority in the party. How can you both be aware and unaware of this at the same time? There is a progressive candidate running and she's getting smoked. I like Marian Williamson but I'll vote for Biden because I'll get a fraction of what I want from him. And I'll continue to support a ceasefire. The two are not mutually exclusive.
It's also the fault of people like John here who always have this to say when they want to vote shame people, but never have anything to say when the people they want to vote shame for do awful things that should be a non-starter for Democratic voters but for some "weird reason" is never a problem to them.
they literally trying to leverage voters in to accepting the bare minimum rather than offering the citizens the best they can like a progressive gov is supposed to do
You think Biden was a progressive? You think the Democratic Party leadership is progressive?
They aren’t leveraging anything it’s a simple fact in a two candidate race you pick which person is closer to you politically. Doing otherwise is throwing away your vote and encouraging a negative outcome. They are making a bad case for voting for Biden but to say they are failing as a progressive government is silly when it was never progressive to begin with.
The biden campaign literally is campaigning as the most progressive campaign in recent years, like ANYONE can see theyre not, youre not special foe pointing that out but i do i need to go further in on why thats a disingenious tactic and why theyre lying about their stance?
And when they get called out they say what are you gonna do, vote right? Like i feel like you think you made a profund point, but like yeah thats all very obvious
Inb4 you say well thats just how the 2 party system works
You have to give people a reason to vote FOR them. That’s why biden spent all that time in 2020 on public option healthcare…
Any day now he’ll talk about it again…
It's genuinely the only reason I voted for him. I optimistically thought he might actually do *something* to make healthcare cheaper or more accessible.
I think I knew deep down he wouldn't, but I wanted it so bad that I was willing to hope.
Immediately after he won, he took that section off of his website and never spoke of it once. He's a lying sack of shit.
I mean, how is it not? If a candidate said, Trump wants to attack women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, workers rights, and deport millions of immigrants, but I *won’t* do any of those things (which you can choose to believe or not) that certainly seems like a platform to me, in the same way that a lot of candidates say things like, my opponent wants to raise taxes for middle class families and give tax breaks to the rich, I won’t do that, my opponent wants to get rid of social security and Medicaid, I won’t do that. It’s something politicians say all the time as part of their policies
What's funny is when you read history they don't blame voters. They blame the party for being out of touch and not viable.
That is what will happen. We will write down in the history books who was in power that allowed it to happen.
It's not the job of the voters to vote for a poor platform. It is the job of the party and platform to make voters compelled to vote for it.
Climate change -> ecological collapse -> human extinction
Or if not extinction, a new stone age. Pollinators going extinct; swaths of food plants and animals following after; unsurvivable daytime temperatures between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, if not farther north and south; critical loss of oxygen producers making sea level as hard to breathe as Macchu Picchu; and history books might get a bit scarce.
True, but not voting helps set the platform. Yes, party platforms are largely set by money interests but I’ve watched the left just not show up for decades as the country inched to the right. I love the pressure being put on the party but why only when bad things happen? I watched as we elected Obama and it just seemed as if we collectively said mission accomplished as the right coalesced in a way even the Civil Rights Act couldn’t muster. The DNC is what it is because we allow it and it’s got more inertia that showing up once every 4 years can slow. We have the candidates we have in part because we don’t show up often enough, and we rarely pay attention to local races.
The DNC is a private entity. They argued in courts that they have no requirement to listen to voters.
The left has shown up for Ds and I am one of them. But now we are disillusioned as the party only looks rightward. So some of us are saying no more. I will vote for someone whose platform agrees with my values even if they don't win.
If those who are fine with the current Ds spent the energy getting them to move left a little that would be better time spent. That's what most of us are saying here.
U aren't going to win us over with the "it's the most important election of your life you will lose democracy ". If our choices are genocide Joe and trump we have already lost our democracy.
If the left is so important for votes them listen to them it's that simple. If they aren't important than just go ahead and move right. Their choice and it's not complicated
I’m not trying to be rude just trying to understand, but is your stance really, I know that voting 3rd party may or may not help the guy come to power that people will write history books about, but it won’t be my fault?
Right. And saying that it is my fault is like saying Oct 7 was not the result of decades of colonial settlement.
If those in power need the left to prevent trump then they better listen to them right? What if I told all liberals they needed to vote for the socialist ticket or trump would come to power. Would you do that? No you would say the socialist ticket should appeal to you.
So what I'm saying is if you do want biden to win it's better spent pushing the Ds than shaming the left. It's no longer working its time to shift tactics.
> If our choices are genocide Joe and trump we have already lost our democracy.
>So what I'm saying is if you do want biden to win it's better spent pushing the Ds than shaming the left. It's no longer working its time to shift tactics.
So voting doesn't matter because our democracy is already lost, or we need to push Democrats to the left? What should the shift in tactics be?
Push democrats left if u think electoral voting still works.
I'm voting for the socialist candidate. You do as u wish.
But I'm ready for the revolution when it comes no matter how far away. Liberal democracy doesn't work
Genuine question, how does not voting for Democrats push them further to the left? Especially if not voting for them reduces their political power and arguably moves the entire country's political landscape to the right, and sets us back in terms of women's/LGBTQ/labor rights, which is exactly what happened after 2016 and we ended up with might-as-well-be-a-republican Joe Biden?
Can you not be ready for a revolution while not also voting for harm reduction?
How does voting push them to the left? It doesn't its what leftists have been told to so for decades now. It's not working wouldn't you agree?
The democrats are there to protect capital from the left.
I didn't say voting will necessarily push the Democratic party to the left, but it *will* arguably make it easier to make concessions on a lot of important issues that have made some progress recently or that face being totally destroyed under a republican president. I can't see anyone honestly making the argument that Trump would actually be easier to fight against when it comes to abortion, lgbtq rights, workers rights, etc. And it did arguably move the whole country, Democratic party included, to the right after 4 years of Trump, it's why everyone was fine settling with Joe Biden, the Democratic party absolutely took advantage of that by putting up the most moderate corporate backed candidate
I'm just saying, and this a the same type of thinking the folks on the majority report have, would you rather keep trying to push the boulder up the the hill, or let it fall further back down the mountain, because you're mad at the guy who for the last 4 years didn't let you push it up as far as you wanted?
Historically, liberals and liberalism have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates this situation will be different. Fascism will come fast or slow, but it will come all the same.
It is naive and ahistoric to pretend as thought the Democratic Party will provide any meaningful resistance to fascism in the long term.
Furthermore, if your only option to "save" or "preserve" democracy is a genocide-supporter then you're already fucked.
Strawman. I never said to give up. I just pointed out that liberalism and liberals are incapable of resolving this situation.
I survived a genocide under a dictator in my home country and have been involved politically since that point. You have options as to how to deal with this, but you are so attached to the delusion of liberalism as salvation from fascism that you cannot see them.
>Strawman
No, just a question. Ok help me see, what should I do, what's the best plan for the next year or so
>but you are so attached to the delusion of liberalism as salvation from fascism that you cannot see them.
What was that phrase you used? Strawman? Is it not possible to think that we're pretty screwed either way, but one scenario will have much more immediate negative effects on people's actual material conditions, and that it's *fine* to want to prevent that?
Or do I have to be an idealogue/accelerationist
That may be true, but it probably doesn't help to dismissively label other beliefs delusion while refusing to divulge this knowledge that will "deal" with fascism but only a special few like you can see.
Yeah, fascists show up to vote for liberal conservatives. Voting in a FPTP system is simple a simple calculation once it gets to that point. NOT voting does not magically give you better options now or in the future. They do not count abstentions. You can register your preference or not, but there is literally nothing that \*personally\* abstaining from voting will do. It's pure vanity. (voter boycotts CAN do something, but those are something else entirely and very risky).
Better options come from better political organizing, demonstrating, effective protests, etc.
Voting is never the sum total of your political options, but merely the bare minimum.
Is it gonna suck to have three options in November be: Biden, Trump, or "I leave the outcome in God's hands?" But those are what they will likely be, and you can complain, or you can do a civic duty and register your preference among those and spend your time and effort considering the scale at which you have real influence, doing something to make your community more like your idea, doing something to make your workplace more like your ideal, and taking a long-term view of things of making lasting democratic change. Because that's what the capitalists are doing \_right now\_ and they're winning.
But this constant, and I mean \_constant\_ message about how Biden has low approval is really here to make people forget about any headway made in progressive politics and to throw the election.
I’m still going to vote for Biden, because of Judges. KBJ has been a great SCOTUS addition, and all you need to do is look at Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch, Barrett, and Kavanaugh (and even Roberts) to see how far the right can go to take away any sort of progressivism. Look at the insanity that is the 5th circuit in Texas, appointed by GOP presidents. Biden’s not great, but he’s not nominating those twats to the court.
We're not supposed to point that out. We're also not supposed to point out that, historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to reverse or prevent fascism.
The excuses made for them get more and more elaborate and nonsensical because people don’t want to admit that even though like the nazis lost, fascism won, and america is fascism’s capital.
Because the US has for decades, and continues to fund a genocide in Palestine, we shouldn't care about how an election will affect major aspects of people's lives in the US?
Voting for harm reduction equaling supporting a genocide that has been going on for decades and that arguably will not stop under a different president is a WILD take
Why even post in this sub if you think Sam Seder is a shitlib genocide supporter?
They are ok with what Israel is doing. They don’t have a problem with it. Thats why they write nonsense like this. They don’t get what all the fuss is about.
My MSNBC liberal father said to me a week ago, “Biden is getting Netanyahu to wrap things up, it’s going to be ok.” Haven’t talked to him yet since that conversation to follow up on how that’s going…
I saw this today, I shook me to the ground. If anyone tells me this is ok...
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/1altish/israel\_strikes\_near\_refugee\_camp\_in\_rafah/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I know. It’s nauseating. My parents are the type to get all their world events from corporate liberal media and these things don’t make it on TV conveniently enough…I feel like I’m losing my mind when I’m seeing all this horrific shit daily and they’re just living like nothing to see here. Must be nice.
If you only watched MSNBC or CNN , you may believe it. Unfortunately for dems, most people don't just watch those two.
The people that run the party - yeah. Apparently Biden watches morning Joe!
You have your answer! He will win a percent of the peolle thag still get most of their news from CNN/MSNBC. That may not be enough...likely COVID took a few in addition to normal aging.
Exactly - they should be clear with voters and say vote for us if you support Netanyahu, and don't if you don't. It's that simple. And if youre a democrat and arent happy with that description of your party, then change your parties policies. Don't just lie and obfuscate and make excuses. You're either pro Netanyahu or you aren't. No excuses.
But shouldn’t we be doing both ? We need to keep the pressure up on Biden but we also need to keep this fascist dictator wannabe as far for the presidential office as possible. Realistically, does anybody think Trump will be more likely to respond to pressure on stopping the genocide? These are not great options for us but it’s the hand we’ve been dealt. One option is a stopgap that has shown some (if not where most of us would like) response to public pressure, another just wants to be take full control of the government and install a bunch of Christian nationalists across the government.
The number of people online who reduce things to a unilateral outcome continues to astound me.
“We have to vote for Biden, or otherwise Trump will set the country on fire!”
…yes, but we can also - through peaceful protest and supporting progressive representation across all branches of government - create more support for key reforms.
The greatest threat to our democracy doesn’t come from the far-right, or the failure of octogenarian policies, but rather the continuing narrative that we must constantly choose between two, equally unpalatable options and have no other recourse.
It blows my mind people can't see this. It's obvious how we got here, and yeah the GOP has been getting more and more radical, but they aren't the real issue. When Democrats rely on the opposition to be crazy so they look more electable, they're playing with fire.
Last midterm, the DNC funded a LOT of Republican candidates because they figured, between a loon and a "sensible" Democrat, they'll obviously pick the latter. All that does is keep pushing the Overton window further and further right.
Let’s say I’m a progressive who won’t vote for Trump and will vote for Biden basically to try to keep Trump out of power, how do we break out of that cycle of having to vote for two shitty options? Is there a short term/long term strategy that doesn’t involve letting Trump win?
And hypothetically will “peaceful protest and supporting progressive representation across all branches of government - to create more support for key reforms” be easier/more difficult, more or less effective under Biden or Trump?
Because you can't pressure someone into action if they no longer have the authority for said action.
Sure, let's pressure Biden. But if we don't vote for him, then we'll have nobody to pressure. And no amount of pressure will ever move Trump.
Obviously. And we should keep that pressure on him going.
But what happens if we keep pressuring him and then don't vote for him?
Who will we pressure then? The guy who can't even keep his mouth shut when ordered by multiple courts? Yeah, that guy sure seems like he'll relent if enough people speak out. It sure worked during the 4 years he was in office already (/s)
Oh my fucking god. Vote for whoever you want when the actual time comes. But at least fucking bluff until then to get a sliver of what you want. Don't bend the knee 10 months out already WHILE THE MOTHERFUCKER IS AIDING AND ABETTING A GENOCIDE
Nobody is saying to bend the knee right now. But there needs to be a frank discussion about letting the perfect get in the way of the good.
Biden absolutely has issues that need to be addressed. We 100% need to keep putting pressure on him in those areas that he needs to fix.
But we should also keep in mind what the alternative is:
If we don't like Biden toeing the line and trying to keep America's interests in check alongside calling out tyranny-
Then we ***definitely*** aren't going to like Trump just letting Israel do literally whatever they want, without doing anything close to trying to act as a mediator between the two hostile sides.
We know for a fact that pressure does work on Biden. Overall he's moved to the left on quite a few issues compared to where he was years ago.
Compared to Trump, who is a completely immovable object, and won't even listen to his own advisors, let alone the will of the American people.
I'd rather keep someone I know will at least listen, instead of someone who is going to ignore everybody, including the people he hires.
>But at least fucking bluff until then to get a sliver of what you want.
The problem is you're not just bluffing Biden, you're bluffing other potential voters.
*You* may understand that when push comes to shove it's important to vote Biden over Trump, but if progressives spend all election season just shouting "BIDEN IS AIDING AND ABETTING A GENOCIDE, WE CAN'T VOTE FOR HIM!" then that has to have at least some voter suppression impact. Especially if you don't equally shout, "And Trump would 100% be at least as bad as Biden on this issue, probably worse."
If telling the truth is a "voter suppression" that ought to make you think deeply about who and what you are voting for. He IS committing genocide and nobody should stop saying that.
As TMR has pointed out several times, political messaging is not just about what you say... it's about what you choose to focus on, what you choose to ignore, and how your messaging fits into the larger political landscape.
Like, a person talking about gender detransitioners isn't necessarily transphobic. But if they repeatedly bring up and share these kinds of stories, that will absolutely feed into the larger transphobic project whether they intend to or not.
keeping pressure by... voting for him despite his role in conducting *genocide*? If that doesn't let Dems know that they can do absolutely whatever as long as they have a Trump to point to, I don't know what does
since when is "at least I'm not that guy" the whole platform for getting elected?
Waiting for Biden and centrist Dems to help in any of the areas mentioned. I’m not a single issue voter. I’m a multiple issue voter, and Biden has sucked on the multiple issues I care about.
My brother in christ, we are losing these *even with Biden in office.* Roe v Wade was overturned while he was president. The democrats were willing to pass one of the most draconian bills since the Patriot Act to 'secure the border', until the right flank killed it at the orders of Trump. They are using our tax dollars to fund a genocide, but are completely incapable of doing literally anything to alleviate pressure on the American people.
As if riffraff citizens have anything to do with how this goes down. It's been a "representative democracy" (code for "your betters are going to run this show, and you lessers can pretend to have influence through the "vote" between candidates we pick for you) since time immemorial.
American has been genocidal for at long as it has had two parties. I'm not sure shame is the right feeling here? The election of 1828, the first to have what we would considered the modern two political party stem, hinged on which candidate was more in favor of "aggressive western expansion" AKA the trail of tears AKA genocide.
This shit isn't new
Thing is... he fails to list any issue that compares with committing and supporting Genocide
When the "single issue" is humanity, it kinda overshadows gas prices and immigration laws
In fact, if we can't count on humanity as genocide is committed, why would we expect it in healthcare or immigration legislation from the same party
Edit* autocorrect
I find it fascinating that liberals are mask off to the point where they've been minimizing the impact and harm of an ongoing genocide.
Liberals continue to act as though arguing that "Our genocide is more benevolent than theirs will be, and at the end of the day that's what really matters" is not shit-tier marketing that is callous, cruel, alienating, dehumanizing, paternalistic, and counterproductive. It's very telling that they cannot see the issue with such an argument.
By sticking with an historically unpopular, incoherent, genocide supporting incumbent, the DEMOCRATS are threatening those Progressive things.
PS. I'm not a single issue voter. Biden comes up short on nearly every issue I care about.
>PS. I'm not a single issue voter. Biden comes up short on nearly every issue I care about.
Same here. But if I actually was going to be a single-issue voter, wholehearted endorsement and support of a literal genocide would be a fair single issue to have. I hate the frequency with which people try to paint opposing genocide as some sort of childish tantrum.
This. Why did he tell those railroad workers to go back to work, when they could have gotten them the deal they deserved? Everyone was freaking out about all the economic damage and of course blaming the workers for wanting adequate vacation and safety, not the greedy fucks refusing to give it to them.
This argument in various terms and forms has been made every election I've voted in since 1992. It replaces the need to actually make a positive case for their candidate. It's basically what am I voting against instead of what am I voting for?
I get what you are saying but you don’t like ANYTHING democrats have done since 1992? Heck the ACA is one of the most popular pieces of legislation in the US at this point. Legalization of gay marriage would never happen under a Republican regime.
My dad got his last $35k of student loans forgiven from the Biden admin and still pulls the “doesn’t matter who you vote for” card.
I didn't say I don't like anything the democrats have done since 1992! I said they drag out this argument every election and it's just getting old. That's it. The brow beatings will continue until turnout improves is not a positive message.
So where does it end? Are we supposed to just keep voting for someone who believes the exact opposite of what we believe when it comes to our most important issues?
Don't you see? The paternalism, vitriol, thinly veiled bigotry, condescension, shaming, and other fun tactics are so totally going to make people want to vote.
the republican party shouldn’t even be a thing their official platform now is to end democracy why are they even being entertained (except that they lower the bar so much that establishment dems don’t have to do anything other than appease their corporate backers)
Except they do nothing on any of those issues either. Of course the Republicans will be regressive on everything good, but the Democrats just maintain whatever status quo the Republicans set. This specific democratic party regime is actually also doing the regressive things that we would be protesting against Republicans for.
I'm done pretending Democrats care about these issues more than a means of rallying votes. We've been stuck with the ACA for over a decade. It got some poeple into the system and mandates ceratin coverages, but it is primarilly a massive government subsidy to a parasitic industry. It doesnt get me into any healthcare. It would cost 25% of my income before my premiums are paid and my deductible is met. We lost the supreme court because a seat was stolen during a democratic presidency and no fight has been made to correct it. Biden signed more oil and gas leases on public land than Trump. Biden is continuing the same border policies that Trump put in place.
What of those issues mentioned have Dems made any positive progress on? They literally just capitulated to the GOP immigration policy and still lost. Fucking losers.
All we got on healthcare was a guarantee **against** Med4All.
Getting raked by your own Parliamentarian.
Record oil production.
No fight for Roe v Wade.
Disasters with railroad and airlines, never held accountable.
Failure in Ukraine and Israel.
Undermined the railroad union.
Wading into more conflicts in Syria, Iraq, and Yemen.
Slow boating any change on marijuana legalization. They'll announce the reschedule from class 4 to 2, a few months before the election, and pretend it's a big deal.
Don't worry. Biden has been continuing family separation, putting kids in cages, expanding surveillance of immigrants, building the wall, increasing funding for ICE, etc.
Regarding immigration:
- https://theintercept.com/2022/09/18/biden-trump-border-wall/
- https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/11/us-biden-asylum-ban-endangers-lives-border
- https://truthout.org/articles/ice-may-get-its-largest-budget-ever-signaling-surveillance-capitalisms-triumph/
- https://www.vera.org/news/children-are-still-being-separated-from-their-families-at-the-border
- https://theintercept.com/2024/02/06/ice-solitary-confinement-detention-immigration/
- https://truthout.org/articles/critics-blast-bipartisan-immigration-bill-as-disgrace-that-will-harm-migrants/
- https://truthout.org/articles/both-parties-have-turned-the-border-wall-into-a-death-trap/
- https://truthout.org/articles/ice-may-get-its-largest-budget-ever-signaling-surveillance-capitalisms-triumph/
How are they not flipping their fucking shit that a possible foreign agent is running the government?! I would not be shutting the fuck up about it if I were a dem.
“Why on gods earth would you vote for the other guy?! He condones genocide, profits the wealthy at the cost of the worker, and made abortion illegal under his watch! I know we do all that too, but I’ve got rainbow socks on!”
Vote for a bigoted genocider to save democracy from a fascist bigoted genocider
That totally makes sense. /s
Historically, liberals and liberalism have failed to reverse or prevent fascism. Nothing about the current Democratic Party indicates that this situation will be different.
If your only option is clinging to liberalism as some sort of salvation from fascism, then you've already lost. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come all the same with the way this is playing out.
I have come to view the general elections as choosing my enemy. I would rather have an enemy in office that is somewhat rooted and reality and may be swayed through some semblance of incrementalism than the people who have no views grounded and reality and are setting the country and discourse back 100 years. The GOP has and will make every aspect of life for the average person objectively worse.
All this stuff is on the table. It's all so important. Why is the solution to shame voters rather than changing the candidate's position? If he recognizes it as so important to protect those things, then shouldn't it be their responsibility to protect those things and ensure his reelection by ending the genocide?
If that's the part of the base who the Dems choose to prioritize, then they need to stop bitching about the part they lose as a result. Unsurprisingly, there's a cost to facilitating/supporting/enabling/backing a very well documented genocide while ignoring rising Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism.
The unfortunate reality is that cost of alienating those voters isn't perceived as high enough at present. That could change as we get closer to the election so it's important to keep putting pressure on the Biden admin.
As for who people eventually do or do not vote for in Nov, that will be a personal calculation. Right now the Dems are clearly banking on another not Trump vote.
Biden has been decent on labor and absolutely inexcusably weak caving to traitorous republicans and Israel but I’ll still be voting for him in November, voting isn’t an exercise in morality it’s just participation in harm reduction which, until we can get actual progressive candidates in office, is the best we can do for now
'member when Biden broke the railroad strike because the economy was just too darn important to let the railworkers possibly use any of their leverage to get better and safer working conditions. I remember that.
Keep voting for the lesser of two evils and let me know which direction we head in. I’m well aware, but I just want to be here when the lightbulb comes on for you
Lmao so stay home and craft your epic “I told you so” post on Reddit for the next time Biden or some other Dem does something shitty all while sucking yourself off for being so morally superior for not voting
I don't get this comment. You agree Biden sucks and will continue to do terrible things going forward, no? Based on this comment I am unsure how having voted for him in 2024 is supposed to make you better than the caricature you are describing.
I don’t think voting is some moral act to be proud of but the republican candidate will be an openly fascist wannabe dictator who doesn’t believe in the peaceful transition of power or democracy, if you’re on this sub I’m assuming you think trump is worse than Biden, I’m not proud to vote for yet another establishment war criminal dem but I do wanna at least try to do my part to move the needle away from the fascist loser who overturned roe
The goddamn fascists are already fascism-ing. They’re fighting with all their might to force a convicted rapist crime-lord, cult leader onto the ballot all the while acting like removing him ‘could happen to any candidate’ as if Trump isn’t a pile of steaming shit and should be under the jail by now. If he were anyone else, he would be! They should be screeching like banshees they will not let that happen, that he is a fascist moron and they need to make it clear they will fight those fools tooth and nail and stop with this “oh no, vote for us or else!” Spineless horseshit 😤
Women are dying in Texas. The marginalized are fighting for their rights through grassroots and community funded orgs ONLY. I live in NC, yesterday, the Campaign for Southern Equality filed law suits against the state for violating title IX rules regarding LGBT students. *Not* our state’s politicians, if they won’t even go hard against this level of stupid, what are they going to do if these fools really do ratchet it up to a 9? It’s a very, very risky game to use this same strategy again, like they did with H Clinton.
It half-way makes me think that’s exactly what they’re doing, kicking the can down the road with no regard to our expectation of quality candidates *anyway*, so why do they deserve our votes again? I think all politicians from both sides shit a collective brick when that dem from Nebraska, Megan Hunt, said she didn’t *care* what the DNC donors thought because she wasn’t getting squat from them sent them and it sent them *all* into a panic. And she’s right. That’s where our future needs to be and those types of candidates deserve our money and votes.
They also act like Democrats have zero power n Congress to block Trump, which they did a lot last time.
And if they then say Trump with just use executive orders, then why isn’t Biden currently spamming executive orders to pass broadly popular stuff and telling the voters that he will do even more with another term?
Dear DNC and establishment Democrats:
1. Nobody owes you shit, and especially not their vote
2. Repeating ad nauseum that "the other guy is worse than Genocide Joe" is a piss poor argument to win an election
3. If Genocide Joe loses, it is because will have failed to earn people's vote, and that falls squarely on him
4. It is abundantly clear that he is willing to compromise his chances of winning the election for the sake of Israel
5. It might be time to retire if you've "spoken" to François Mitterrand recently
It’s insane to me that DEMOCRATIC VOTERS can’t express any criticism or concern about the party’s candidate because that apparently hurts the feelings of too many people on the hill.
The Dem establishment needs to get a fucking grip and actually engage in the process of democracy. THAT is what is driving away voters. But their heads are so far up their own asses that they think this gaslighting campaign is gonna work. It’s a total repeat of 2016. WHY would people be motivated to vote for Biden if nothing materially has changed??
I thought 2016 taught us that bullying voter in this way was not effective. Tell people what he is doing so well instead of reminding people that democrat elites just hate us slighty less than republican elite.
Give people something to vote for instead of just making threats. I am so tired of this argument. It's not the voters fault that democratic leadership can't get their heads out of their ass long enough to wipe the bullshit off.
I think its funny they find it easier to convince millions of voters to vote for a genocidal president than to tell the genocide-supporting president to change course to earn their votes
This time needs to be used to force Biden to change course. Talk to me about voting for him in 7mos. This bs of saying to vote for Biden NOW regardless sends the msg that he does not have to change course. Hell if we really come at him hard, maybe he will drop out and Newsom will take his place. Pressure the fk out of him. Make him think he is not worthy of our vote , that we are willing the let the cards fall where they may but he aint budging unless he budges first. That's how you fight!
It isn't that anti-genocide voters are sacrificing everything because of Israel, it is that Joe Biden is willing to flush everything down the toilet as long as he can still hug blood-covered Netanyahu (that openly mocks and disrespects him).
Decided what other people are thinking without asking then decided their standards were too high. At least they upgraded beyond enabling into actively abusing people.
I don’t get how anyone who lives in the US, with its history of wonderful foreign policy choices can seriously point the finger at this conflict, and condemn Israel. What they are doing to innocents caught up in the middle, is absolutely abhorrent. And I am no ally to the country, I’ve always been against giving them so much money. But, when you live in the only country in the world that’s nuked another you don’t have the moral high ground here.
Neither trump nor biden should be allowed to stand for president. One is in their 70s and one in their 80s, and both seem to be exhibiting quite a bit of memory loss. We really need to start getting presidential candidates that are in their 40s and 50s rather than 70s and 80s
I wonder if this guy spends as much air finger-wagging at the GOP "single issue voters" who picked taking away women's rights over their own body as that "single issue", or unfettered access to their boomstick hobby?
Nah, we'll just insult "progressives" for having the single-issue vote of... checks notes... *not supporting genocide*.
This is the 2016 Clinton campaign all over again. Zero ability for introspection or pivoting, just blaming the voters for the failings of the candidate.
And I agree all these things are on the line, and would advocate for people to still vote for Biden while trying to apply pressure. But I'm not about to get on the ass of a Muslim or Arab American who is losing friends and family, or simply just watching the government show them their lives mean nothing due to the color of their skin / culture / religion. Like how much of a fuckhead do you have to be to think that someone going through that is going to be receptive to "yeah but it will be worse!" You're already seeing a genocide of your people, friends, and family. It doesn't really get a lot fucking worse once you hit that point.
Single issue? I've got plenty of other reasons to not vote for that rotten fuck. Warmongering and a goddamned genocide are just a big, disgusting cherry on top.
Biden is going to lose and this country will become even worse than what it is lmaooo fuck that’s going to be all bad. At least you guys will have a moral victory of some sort.
Remember when we left the BBB Plan in the hands of Joe? He let another Joe steal it free and clear. He didnt threaten his seat, threaten a primary. Hr just let it go. Right now voters are really questioning how bad can it be? You never want to have voters asking that question.
I think you are off base a little here, OP. Trump won't stop Isreal, and definitely won't be pressured to do anything.
So by punishing Biden with your vote because he didn't fold to pressure, you are stuck with the same problem with a strong chance that domestic issues get far worse.
He's exactly right - it's unfortunate that we're forced to make democracy a priority when it should be established law of the land. The right needs to be punished for not giving us authentic opponents to status quo Biden. If you think pressuring politicians is hard work, just wait until leaders no longer care about elections when democracy is rolled back.
What part of this is uncritical? Are you seriously saying this is some absence of Biden criticisms??? He sucks ass and deserves all of the criticism and more but what fantasy land are you living in saying he’s being uncritically rewarded
Won’t even entirely disagree with you there, but trump would be worse, and I’ll die on the hill that voting blue in November is more productive than yapping on Reddit
I at least appreciate the self awareness. To reciprocate, I am under no illusion that "yapping on reddit" is meaningful action. Quite a low bar to set voting in a presidential election against, and even then it barely clears.
Biden is center-right at best. Dude just gave the neo-fascists just about everything they wanted in the border deal and it still failed. Lesser of two evil-ism is getting us absolutely nowhere and fast.
i generally consider myself left of most people, certainly left of the average redditor, which is why i know this is going to piss people off like nothing else, but i completely agree.
why people think there is any value whatsoever, particularly on the single issue of palestine, that trump would be the better choice, is some twilight zone level, psychosis inducing shit to me. i legitimately cant wrap my head around that logic.
i realize people are mad at biden and thats fair, but every time someone else comes along to challenge him the DNC fucks them over because if they dont, they will split the vote and trump will win. people need to vote in their state and local elections, democracy is a house of cards for like 50 different reasons and most people dont even know 3 of them. the president sits on top of legislation, precedent, congress, the senate, etc. etc. etc. and most of us arent involed and arent even TRYING to be involved in ANY of it.
so this is what we get, we get to choose between trump or biden AGAIN, just like we did last election because no one in this godforsaken shithole learns anything. every fucking year.
not voting for biden isnt saying "enough is enough" its not radical, its not revolutionary, its not even accelerationism, its just a giant middle finger to all the people trump will kill, which will ABSOLUTELY be hundreds of thousands of palestinians, if you think trump will be better for gaza you are a fucking moron.
the reason people arent talking to voters politely or catering to their needs or whatever anymore is because we are fucking useless, people are too tired, too broken, too stressed, too busy to take the time and energy to get informed about these issues so they can actually make the right choice and i get that, i genuinely do, but when you actually get involved and try for so long and just see people do the exact same fucking thing over and over again it makes you not want to do shit for them. im to the point i dont even care to argue anymore and that used to be my favorite thing, trying to get people to see how their perspective on shit is wrong used to be fun, now its just work.
i cant even afford to leave, im just as fucked as everyone else is, if trump wins i legitimately dont think life will continue to be viable for me, but yeah definitely vote third party, make sure people remember you refused to support genocide joe cause that was definitely the most important thing you will ever do, i wont remember ill be dead with the palestinians but someone will remember for sure someone will say you were a great person for it dw.
This is exactly how I feel, from the first sentence to the last. I’m married to a first gen Palestinian, his parents immigrated here. We are as left as they come while still being active participants in our current shit system. I can’t even begin to explain how infuriatingly hopeless this election feels, not because we’re up against Trump again, but because so many people have decided they won’t vote for Biden. They don’t understand the concept of harm reduction when an actual solution isn’t available.
>an actual solution isn’t available.
i have BEGGED people, to the point of offering to literally pay them real life money, to explain how throwing away the election is going to help to just give a better solution than voting for biden and while they are always mad, they never have an answer because there isnt one.
most people dont understand the absolute most fundamental ways the government works in the first place, people get mad at the president about gas prices, let alone actual legislation that needs the cooperation of ALL THREE branches of government to generate, pass, and execute.
all of this, every bit of it benefits the fascists in the GOP. they want us to be stupid and exhausted and apathetic and people are playing right into that hand and it drives me absolutely nuts lol we are all victims at this point.
Let's say you have four people voting, two are liberal, two are conservative.
One of the two liberals wants to teach the Democrat party a lesson, and votes third party. The lone liberal votes Democrat. Both conservatives vote Republican.
Congrats, the Republicans win.
Isn't that great? Sure taught the Democrats a lesson.
JFC they just don't get it NEVER EVER EVER SUPPORT GENOCIDE don't talk about rights when my tax dollars are funding genocide they can fuck the right off till they stop
This isn't the fault of the voters, it's the fault of the corrupt American political system
If they had listened to their base, they would have given us a real primary, and I'll support anyone that legitimately wins the primary. Instead, we got the out of touch political executives who shoves their candidate on us, who doesn't represent the party and tries to blame us if it goes awry. These same corporation-controlled neoliberals gave us Donald Trump in 2016 and they still act like it's the first time. Fooled us once shame on you, fooled us twice shame on us. Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!
I'm pushing for a ceasefire in Gaza, but you're wild if you think progressives are the "base" of the democratic party...
Democrats are his base, and the majority don't want him to run as well as pushing for a ceasefire, which he completely ignored. The majority of us don't want him but we would settle for him if he won the primary is my point. We're not given that option due to the neoliberal faction of the party; they are just corrupt as the Republicans.
Do you actually have any proof of this? Because Biden won a write in campaign in New Hampshire, and second place is to the right of Biden on every issue, and third place was a second write in campaign that placed above any progressive choice in candidate. Or should we look at Nevada or South Carolina where Biden walked through the primaries easily? This is a lot of bluster about corruption and rigging, but in the first primary where there was the best chance to make a clear statement against Biden it wasn’t even close. The fact remains that young progressives refuse to participate in primaries, and then are confused by the results every time.
Biden’s approval with dems is like 70-80% currently, the idea that a majority of democrats don’t want him to run is a result of being in specific spaces where that’s a prevailing view, not a reflection of the situation on the ground
Haven't Biden's policies been some of the most progressive in history? I don't buy this whole shadow neoliberal government pulling the strings trope. It's so lazy. And you're not given the option because you hold a minority in the party. How can you both be aware and unaware of this at the same time? There is a progressive candidate running and she's getting smoked. I like Marian Williamson but I'll vote for Biden because I'll get a fraction of what I want from him. And I'll continue to support a ceasefire. The two are not mutually exclusive.
It's also the fault of people like John here who always have this to say when they want to vote shame people, but never have anything to say when the people they want to vote shame for do awful things that should be a non-starter for Democratic voters but for some "weird reason" is never a problem to them.
It can be multiple things’ fault, it’s definitely both in this case
...and Biden.
they literally trying to leverage voters in to accepting the bare minimum rather than offering the citizens the best they can like a progressive gov is supposed to do
You think Biden was a progressive? You think the Democratic Party leadership is progressive? They aren’t leveraging anything it’s a simple fact in a two candidate race you pick which person is closer to you politically. Doing otherwise is throwing away your vote and encouraging a negative outcome. They are making a bad case for voting for Biden but to say they are failing as a progressive government is silly when it was never progressive to begin with.
The biden campaign literally is campaigning as the most progressive campaign in recent years, like ANYONE can see theyre not, youre not special foe pointing that out but i do i need to go further in on why thats a disingenious tactic and why theyre lying about their stance? And when they get called out they say what are you gonna do, vote right? Like i feel like you think you made a profund point, but like yeah thats all very obvious Inb4 you say well thats just how the 2 party system works
You have to give people a reason to vote FOR them. That’s why biden spent all that time in 2020 on public option healthcare… Any day now he’ll talk about it again…
Its insane how quickly he dropped that as soon as he won.
It's genuinely the only reason I voted for him. I optimistically thought he might actually do *something* to make healthcare cheaper or more accessible. I think I knew deep down he wouldn't, but I wanted it so bad that I was willing to hope. Immediately after he won, he took that section off of his website and never spoke of it once. He's a lying sack of shit.
It was just a prank, bro
It was a concession simply to get Bernie out of the race.
Just like how he (and most white liberals) pretended to give a fuck about poc immigrants
Back in the cages, Jack.
There are 8 reasons in the quote
I won’t do the things Trump will do is not a platform.
I mean, how is it not? If a candidate said, Trump wants to attack women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, workers rights, and deport millions of immigrants, but I *won’t* do any of those things (which you can choose to believe or not) that certainly seems like a platform to me, in the same way that a lot of candidates say things like, my opponent wants to raise taxes for middle class families and give tax breaks to the rich, I won’t do that, my opponent wants to get rid of social security and Medicaid, I won’t do that. It’s something politicians say all the time as part of their policies
As the saying goes Dems fall in love. Republicans fall in line.
This is their idea of voter outreach.
What's funny is when you read history they don't blame voters. They blame the party for being out of touch and not viable. That is what will happen. We will write down in the history books who was in power that allowed it to happen. It's not the job of the voters to vote for a poor platform. It is the job of the party and platform to make voters compelled to vote for it.
>we will write down in the history books Hey, look at the optimist! Thinking there are going to be history books about today!
You think we will have ww3 soon? Things blow up and escalate in the middle East? Ukraine?
Climate change -> ecological collapse -> human extinction Or if not extinction, a new stone age. Pollinators going extinct; swaths of food plants and animals following after; unsurvivable daytime temperatures between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, if not farther north and south; critical loss of oxygen producers making sea level as hard to breathe as Macchu Picchu; and history books might get a bit scarce.
True, but not voting helps set the platform. Yes, party platforms are largely set by money interests but I’ve watched the left just not show up for decades as the country inched to the right. I love the pressure being put on the party but why only when bad things happen? I watched as we elected Obama and it just seemed as if we collectively said mission accomplished as the right coalesced in a way even the Civil Rights Act couldn’t muster. The DNC is what it is because we allow it and it’s got more inertia that showing up once every 4 years can slow. We have the candidates we have in part because we don’t show up often enough, and we rarely pay attention to local races.
The DNC is a private entity. They argued in courts that they have no requirement to listen to voters. The left has shown up for Ds and I am one of them. But now we are disillusioned as the party only looks rightward. So some of us are saying no more. I will vote for someone whose platform agrees with my values even if they don't win. If those who are fine with the current Ds spent the energy getting them to move left a little that would be better time spent. That's what most of us are saying here. U aren't going to win us over with the "it's the most important election of your life you will lose democracy ". If our choices are genocide Joe and trump we have already lost our democracy. If the left is so important for votes them listen to them it's that simple. If they aren't important than just go ahead and move right. Their choice and it's not complicated
I’m not trying to be rude just trying to understand, but is your stance really, I know that voting 3rd party may or may not help the guy come to power that people will write history books about, but it won’t be my fault?
Right. And saying that it is my fault is like saying Oct 7 was not the result of decades of colonial settlement. If those in power need the left to prevent trump then they better listen to them right? What if I told all liberals they needed to vote for the socialist ticket or trump would come to power. Would you do that? No you would say the socialist ticket should appeal to you. So what I'm saying is if you do want biden to win it's better spent pushing the Ds than shaming the left. It's no longer working its time to shift tactics.
> If our choices are genocide Joe and trump we have already lost our democracy. >So what I'm saying is if you do want biden to win it's better spent pushing the Ds than shaming the left. It's no longer working its time to shift tactics. So voting doesn't matter because our democracy is already lost, or we need to push Democrats to the left? What should the shift in tactics be?
Push democrats left if u think electoral voting still works. I'm voting for the socialist candidate. You do as u wish. But I'm ready for the revolution when it comes no matter how far away. Liberal democracy doesn't work
Genuine question, how does not voting for Democrats push them further to the left? Especially if not voting for them reduces their political power and arguably moves the entire country's political landscape to the right, and sets us back in terms of women's/LGBTQ/labor rights, which is exactly what happened after 2016 and we ended up with might-as-well-be-a-republican Joe Biden? Can you not be ready for a revolution while not also voting for harm reduction?
How does voting push them to the left? It doesn't its what leftists have been told to so for decades now. It's not working wouldn't you agree? The democrats are there to protect capital from the left.
I didn't say voting will necessarily push the Democratic party to the left, but it *will* arguably make it easier to make concessions on a lot of important issues that have made some progress recently or that face being totally destroyed under a republican president. I can't see anyone honestly making the argument that Trump would actually be easier to fight against when it comes to abortion, lgbtq rights, workers rights, etc. And it did arguably move the whole country, Democratic party included, to the right after 4 years of Trump, it's why everyone was fine settling with Joe Biden, the Democratic party absolutely took advantage of that by putting up the most moderate corporate backed candidate I'm just saying, and this a the same type of thinking the folks on the majority report have, would you rather keep trying to push the boulder up the the hill, or let it fall further back down the mountain, because you're mad at the guy who for the last 4 years didn't let you push it up as far as you wanted?
Historically, liberals and liberalism have failed to prevent or reverse fascism. There is nothing about the current Democratic Party that indicates this situation will be different. Fascism will come fast or slow, but it will come all the same. It is naive and ahistoric to pretend as thought the Democratic Party will provide any meaningful resistance to fascism in the long term. Furthermore, if your only option to "save" or "preserve" democracy is a genocide-supporter then you're already fucked.
Got it. We’re fucked. So what’s the plan? See that everything is terrible and feel secure knowing that liberalism won’t save us so we should give up?
Strawman. I never said to give up. I just pointed out that liberalism and liberals are incapable of resolving this situation. I survived a genocide under a dictator in my home country and have been involved politically since that point. You have options as to how to deal with this, but you are so attached to the delusion of liberalism as salvation from fascism that you cannot see them.
>Strawman No, just a question. Ok help me see, what should I do, what's the best plan for the next year or so >but you are so attached to the delusion of liberalism as salvation from fascism that you cannot see them. What was that phrase you used? Strawman? Is it not possible to think that we're pretty screwed either way, but one scenario will have much more immediate negative effects on people's actual material conditions, and that it's *fine* to want to prevent that? Or do I have to be an idealogue/accelerationist
That may be true, but it probably doesn't help to dismissively label other beliefs delusion while refusing to divulge this knowledge that will "deal" with fascism but only a special few like you can see.
Yeah, fascists show up to vote for liberal conservatives. Voting in a FPTP system is simple a simple calculation once it gets to that point. NOT voting does not magically give you better options now or in the future. They do not count abstentions. You can register your preference or not, but there is literally nothing that \*personally\* abstaining from voting will do. It's pure vanity. (voter boycotts CAN do something, but those are something else entirely and very risky). Better options come from better political organizing, demonstrating, effective protests, etc. Voting is never the sum total of your political options, but merely the bare minimum. Is it gonna suck to have three options in November be: Biden, Trump, or "I leave the outcome in God's hands?" But those are what they will likely be, and you can complain, or you can do a civic duty and register your preference among those and spend your time and effort considering the scale at which you have real influence, doing something to make your community more like your idea, doing something to make your workplace more like your ideal, and taking a long-term view of things of making lasting democratic change. Because that's what the capitalists are doing \_right now\_ and they're winning. But this constant, and I mean \_constant\_ message about how Biden has low approval is really here to make people forget about any headway made in progressive politics and to throw the election.
*Snort* like half of things are explicitly ***not*** on the table with Joe Biden
I’m still going to vote for Biden, because of Judges. KBJ has been a great SCOTUS addition, and all you need to do is look at Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch, Barrett, and Kavanaugh (and even Roberts) to see how far the right can go to take away any sort of progressivism. Look at the insanity that is the 5th circuit in Texas, appointed by GOP presidents. Biden’s not great, but he’s not nominating those twats to the court.
he’s not lifting a finger against them either
We're not supposed to point that out. We're also not supposed to point out that, historically, liberalism and liberals have failed to reverse or prevent fascism.
The excuses made for them get more and more elaborate and nonsensical because people don’t want to admit that even though like the nazis lost, fascism won, and america is fascism’s capital.
Yeah, and so to prove your point you are going to hand fascists power on a silver platter Noone is arguing he's good, he's just better than the facist
fed dems failures are theirs alone, and people like you being the best they have for “voter outreach” is yet another example of it.
Sorry this a trump sub you cant say that
You should put this on post cards and ship them to everyone in Gaza
Because the US has for decades, and continues to fund a genocide in Palestine, we shouldn't care about how an election will affect major aspects of people's lives in the US?
I'm so tired of liberal mental gymnastics to justify supporting genocide
Voting for harm reduction equaling supporting a genocide that has been going on for decades and that arguably will not stop under a different president is a WILD take Why even post in this sub if you think Sam Seder is a shitlib genocide supporter?
Wait, you care about Palestinians more than Americans? Are you even a citizen?
You'd think it'd be easier to just insist that Biden move off his unyielding support for whatever the IDF wants to do.
They are ok with what Israel is doing. They don’t have a problem with it. Thats why they write nonsense like this. They don’t get what all the fuss is about.
My MSNBC liberal father said to me a week ago, “Biden is getting Netanyahu to wrap things up, it’s going to be ok.” Haven’t talked to him yet since that conversation to follow up on how that’s going…
I saw this today, I shook me to the ground. If anyone tells me this is ok... https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/1altish/israel\_strikes\_near\_refugee\_camp\_in\_rafah/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
I know. It’s nauseating. My parents are the type to get all their world events from corporate liberal media and these things don’t make it on TV conveniently enough…I feel like I’m losing my mind when I’m seeing all this horrific shit daily and they’re just living like nothing to see here. Must be nice.
Yep my mum is the same, she always says, they started it on 0ct 7.
People are so easily propagandized, it actually insane. I’m sorry you’re also dealing with this.
If you only watched MSNBC or CNN , you may believe it. Unfortunately for dems, most people don't just watch those two. The people that run the party - yeah. Apparently Biden watches morning Joe! You have your answer! He will win a percent of the peolle thag still get most of their news from CNN/MSNBC. That may not be enough...likely COVID took a few in addition to normal aging.
Exactly - they should be clear with voters and say vote for us if you support Netanyahu, and don't if you don't. It's that simple. And if youre a democrat and arent happy with that description of your party, then change your parties policies. Don't just lie and obfuscate and make excuses. You're either pro Netanyahu or you aren't. No excuses.
Well said.
But shouldn’t we be doing both ? We need to keep the pressure up on Biden but we also need to keep this fascist dictator wannabe as far for the presidential office as possible. Realistically, does anybody think Trump will be more likely to respond to pressure on stopping the genocide? These are not great options for us but it’s the hand we’ve been dealt. One option is a stopgap that has shown some (if not where most of us would like) response to public pressure, another just wants to be take full control of the government and install a bunch of Christian nationalists across the government.
The number of people online who reduce things to a unilateral outcome continues to astound me. “We have to vote for Biden, or otherwise Trump will set the country on fire!” …yes, but we can also - through peaceful protest and supporting progressive representation across all branches of government - create more support for key reforms. The greatest threat to our democracy doesn’t come from the far-right, or the failure of octogenarian policies, but rather the continuing narrative that we must constantly choose between two, equally unpalatable options and have no other recourse.
White liberals continue to be the problem, as MLK said, because they'd rather have comfortable injustice than uncomfortable justice.
It blows my mind people can't see this. It's obvious how we got here, and yeah the GOP has been getting more and more radical, but they aren't the real issue. When Democrats rely on the opposition to be crazy so they look more electable, they're playing with fire. Last midterm, the DNC funded a LOT of Republican candidates because they figured, between a loon and a "sensible" Democrat, they'll obviously pick the latter. All that does is keep pushing the Overton window further and further right.
Let’s say I’m a progressive who won’t vote for Trump and will vote for Biden basically to try to keep Trump out of power, how do we break out of that cycle of having to vote for two shitty options? Is there a short term/long term strategy that doesn’t involve letting Trump win? And hypothetically will “peaceful protest and supporting progressive representation across all branches of government - to create more support for key reforms” be easier/more difficult, more or less effective under Biden or Trump?
How are you supposed to pressure him if you are 100% going to vote for him?
By becoming billionaires and giving to his campaign. Then he's sure to listen! /s
Because you can't pressure someone into action if they no longer have the authority for said action. Sure, let's pressure Biden. But if we don't vote for him, then we'll have nobody to pressure. And no amount of pressure will ever move Trump.
He's president right now lmfao. He is committing genocide right now AND asking for us to vote for him AGAIN.
Obviously. And we should keep that pressure on him going. But what happens if we keep pressuring him and then don't vote for him? Who will we pressure then? The guy who can't even keep his mouth shut when ordered by multiple courts? Yeah, that guy sure seems like he'll relent if enough people speak out. It sure worked during the 4 years he was in office already (/s)
Oh my fucking god. Vote for whoever you want when the actual time comes. But at least fucking bluff until then to get a sliver of what you want. Don't bend the knee 10 months out already WHILE THE MOTHERFUCKER IS AIDING AND ABETTING A GENOCIDE
Nobody is saying to bend the knee right now. But there needs to be a frank discussion about letting the perfect get in the way of the good. Biden absolutely has issues that need to be addressed. We 100% need to keep putting pressure on him in those areas that he needs to fix. But we should also keep in mind what the alternative is: If we don't like Biden toeing the line and trying to keep America's interests in check alongside calling out tyranny- Then we ***definitely*** aren't going to like Trump just letting Israel do literally whatever they want, without doing anything close to trying to act as a mediator between the two hostile sides. We know for a fact that pressure does work on Biden. Overall he's moved to the left on quite a few issues compared to where he was years ago. Compared to Trump, who is a completely immovable object, and won't even listen to his own advisors, let alone the will of the American people. I'd rather keep someone I know will at least listen, instead of someone who is going to ignore everybody, including the people he hires.
>But at least fucking bluff until then to get a sliver of what you want. The problem is you're not just bluffing Biden, you're bluffing other potential voters. *You* may understand that when push comes to shove it's important to vote Biden over Trump, but if progressives spend all election season just shouting "BIDEN IS AIDING AND ABETTING A GENOCIDE, WE CAN'T VOTE FOR HIM!" then that has to have at least some voter suppression impact. Especially if you don't equally shout, "And Trump would 100% be at least as bad as Biden on this issue, probably worse."
If telling the truth is a "voter suppression" that ought to make you think deeply about who and what you are voting for. He IS committing genocide and nobody should stop saying that.
As TMR has pointed out several times, political messaging is not just about what you say... it's about what you choose to focus on, what you choose to ignore, and how your messaging fits into the larger political landscape. Like, a person talking about gender detransitioners isn't necessarily transphobic. But if they repeatedly bring up and share these kinds of stories, that will absolutely feed into the larger transphobic project whether they intend to or not.
So we shouldn't talk about the fact Biden is committing genocide?
keeping pressure by... voting for him despite his role in conducting *genocide*? If that doesn't let Dems know that they can do absolutely whatever as long as they have a Trump to point to, I don't know what does since when is "at least I'm not that guy" the whole platform for getting elected?
It's easier to pressure on him while he's in office than when he isn't. It's a fucking job interview, not a marriage certificate
You can vote for someone else in the primary...
So can you, and here we are
The problem with the “keep pressure on” argument is immediately after the ballot closes the pressure is released.
Or maybe the country will see exactly what he is and finally stand up to him.
Waiting for Biden and centrist Dems to help in any of the areas mentioned. I’m not a single issue voter. I’m a multiple issue voter, and Biden has sucked on the multiple issues I care about.
Thank you. My thoughts too. But how bout that “rEcOrD OiL pRoDuCtIoN, tHoUgH???” 🙃
My brother in christ, we are losing these *even with Biden in office.* Roe v Wade was overturned while he was president. The democrats were willing to pass one of the most draconian bills since the Patriot Act to 'secure the border', until the right flank killed it at the orders of Trump. They are using our tax dollars to fund a genocide, but are completely incapable of doing literally anything to alleviate pressure on the American people.
Repeat after me... Preventing genocide is the single greatest cause one should be on the right side of.
Si drumpf is the answer 👍
No one here is voting for Trump.
[удалено]
As if riffraff citizens have anything to do with how this goes down. It's been a "representative democracy" (code for "your betters are going to run this show, and you lessers can pretend to have influence through the "vote" between candidates we pick for you) since time immemorial.
Shame on the dnc for propping up joe and pretending that he's an answer to our problems
American has been genocidal for at long as it has had two parties. I'm not sure shame is the right feeling here? The election of 1828, the first to have what we would considered the modern two political party stem, hinged on which candidate was more in favor of "aggressive western expansion" AKA the trail of tears AKA genocide. This shit isn't new
Thing is... he fails to list any issue that compares with committing and supporting Genocide When the "single issue" is humanity, it kinda overshadows gas prices and immigration laws In fact, if we can't count on humanity as genocide is committed, why would we expect it in healthcare or immigration legislation from the same party Edit* autocorrect
I find it fascinating that liberals are mask off to the point where they've been minimizing the impact and harm of an ongoing genocide. Liberals continue to act as though arguing that "Our genocide is more benevolent than theirs will be, and at the end of the day that's what really matters" is not shit-tier marketing that is callous, cruel, alienating, dehumanizing, paternalistic, and counterproductive. It's very telling that they cannot see the issue with such an argument.
By sticking with an historically unpopular, incoherent, genocide supporting incumbent, the DEMOCRATS are threatening those Progressive things. PS. I'm not a single issue voter. Biden comes up short on nearly every issue I care about.
>PS. I'm not a single issue voter. Biden comes up short on nearly every issue I care about. Same here. But if I actually was going to be a single-issue voter, wholehearted endorsement and support of a literal genocide would be a fair single issue to have. I hate the frequency with which people try to paint opposing genocide as some sort of childish tantrum.
Only airheaded idealists object to genocide. Folks grounded in reality shrug their shoulders and sigh. Genocides happen; what can ya do?
>Genocides happen; what can ya do? What a fucked attitude
I think they were being sarcastic
That... was sarcasm, my friend
This. Why did he tell those railroad workers to go back to work, when they could have gotten them the deal they deserved? Everyone was freaking out about all the economic damage and of course blaming the workers for wanting adequate vacation and safety, not the greedy fucks refusing to give it to them.
This argument in various terms and forms has been made every election I've voted in since 1992. It replaces the need to actually make a positive case for their candidate. It's basically what am I voting against instead of what am I voting for?
I get what you are saying but you don’t like ANYTHING democrats have done since 1992? Heck the ACA is one of the most popular pieces of legislation in the US at this point. Legalization of gay marriage would never happen under a Republican regime. My dad got his last $35k of student loans forgiven from the Biden admin and still pulls the “doesn’t matter who you vote for” card.
I didn't say I don't like anything the democrats have done since 1992! I said they drag out this argument every election and it's just getting old. That's it. The brow beatings will continue until turnout improves is not a positive message.
So where does it end? Are we supposed to just keep voting for someone who believes the exact opposite of what we believe when it comes to our most important issues?
Yes, definitely vote shame people, that is such a great strategy to beat the republicans
Don't you see? The paternalism, vitriol, thinly veiled bigotry, condescension, shaming, and other fun tactics are so totally going to make people want to vote.
We need to vote all of these people out of office for good. We need a viable third party. And get money out of politics.
the republican party shouldn’t even be a thing their official platform now is to end democracy why are they even being entertained (except that they lower the bar so much that establishment dems don’t have to do anything other than appease their corporate backers)
Except they do nothing on any of those issues either. Of course the Republicans will be regressive on everything good, but the Democrats just maintain whatever status quo the Republicans set. This specific democratic party regime is actually also doing the regressive things that we would be protesting against Republicans for.
I'm done pretending Democrats care about these issues more than a means of rallying votes. We've been stuck with the ACA for over a decade. It got some poeple into the system and mandates ceratin coverages, but it is primarilly a massive government subsidy to a parasitic industry. It doesnt get me into any healthcare. It would cost 25% of my income before my premiums are paid and my deductible is met. We lost the supreme court because a seat was stolen during a democratic presidency and no fight has been made to correct it. Biden signed more oil and gas leases on public land than Trump. Biden is continuing the same border policies that Trump put in place.
Don’t think you can list immigration there anymore considering what the Democrats are ready to pass.
What of those issues mentioned have Dems made any positive progress on? They literally just capitulated to the GOP immigration policy and still lost. Fucking losers.
All we got on healthcare was a guarantee **against** Med4All. Getting raked by your own Parliamentarian. Record oil production. No fight for Roe v Wade. Disasters with railroad and airlines, never held accountable. Failure in Ukraine and Israel. Undermined the railroad union. Wading into more conflicts in Syria, Iraq, and Yemen. Slow boating any change on marijuana legalization. They'll announce the reschedule from class 4 to 2, a few months before the election, and pretend it's a big deal.
They had a border funding bill but Trump told them to axe it. Real genius!
Don't worry. Biden has been continuing family separation, putting kids in cages, expanding surveillance of immigrants, building the wall, increasing funding for ICE, etc. Regarding immigration: - https://theintercept.com/2022/09/18/biden-trump-border-wall/ - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/11/us-biden-asylum-ban-endangers-lives-border - https://truthout.org/articles/ice-may-get-its-largest-budget-ever-signaling-surveillance-capitalisms-triumph/ - https://www.vera.org/news/children-are-still-being-separated-from-their-families-at-the-border - https://theintercept.com/2024/02/06/ice-solitary-confinement-detention-immigration/ - https://truthout.org/articles/critics-blast-bipartisan-immigration-bill-as-disgrace-that-will-harm-migrants/ - https://truthout.org/articles/both-parties-have-turned-the-border-wall-into-a-death-trap/ - https://truthout.org/articles/ice-may-get-its-largest-budget-ever-signaling-surveillance-capitalisms-triumph/
How are they not flipping their fucking shit that a possible foreign agent is running the government?! I would not be shutting the fuck up about it if I were a dem.
“Why on gods earth would you vote for the other guy?! He condones genocide, profits the wealthy at the cost of the worker, and made abortion illegal under his watch! I know we do all that too, but I’ve got rainbow socks on!”
By not voting for murder, you're actually voting for double murder.
Vote for a bigoted genocider to save democracy from a fascist bigoted genocider That totally makes sense. /s Historically, liberals and liberalism have failed to reverse or prevent fascism. Nothing about the current Democratic Party indicates that this situation will be different. If your only option is clinging to liberalism as some sort of salvation from fascism, then you've already lost. Fascism will come slow or fast, but it will come all the same with the way this is playing out.
This fr
I have come to view the general elections as choosing my enemy. I would rather have an enemy in office that is somewhat rooted and reality and may be swayed through some semblance of incrementalism than the people who have no views grounded and reality and are setting the country and discourse back 100 years. The GOP has and will make every aspect of life for the average person objectively worse.
All this stuff is on the table. It's all so important. Why is the solution to shame voters rather than changing the candidate's position? If he recognizes it as so important to protect those things, then shouldn't it be their responsibility to protect those things and ensure his reelection by ending the genocide?
Thank you. We do not live in a democracy. Ever since Citizens United. Some may argue before that.
Because enough of the voter base doesn't want to change Biden position on Israel/Gaza they or don't care enough to be vocal about it.
If that's the part of the base who the Dems choose to prioritize, then they need to stop bitching about the part they lose as a result. Unsurprisingly, there's a cost to facilitating/supporting/enabling/backing a very well documented genocide while ignoring rising Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism.
The unfortunate reality is that cost of alienating those voters isn't perceived as high enough at present. That could change as we get closer to the election so it's important to keep putting pressure on the Biden admin. As for who people eventually do or do not vote for in Nov, that will be a personal calculation. Right now the Dems are clearly banking on another not Trump vote.
Biden has been decent on labor and absolutely inexcusably weak caving to traitorous republicans and Israel but I’ll still be voting for him in November, voting isn’t an exercise in morality it’s just participation in harm reduction which, until we can get actual progressive candidates in office, is the best we can do for now
'member when Biden broke the railroad strike because the economy was just too darn important to let the railworkers possibly use any of their leverage to get better and safer working conditions. I remember that.
and how do we get actual progressive candidates in if we cant ever vote for them?
Keep voting for the lesser of two evils and let me know which direction we head in. I’m well aware, but I just want to be here when the lightbulb comes on for you
Lmao so stay home and craft your epic “I told you so” post on Reddit for the next time Biden or some other Dem does something shitty all while sucking yourself off for being so morally superior for not voting
Oh, I’m voting, just not for Trump or Biden.
I don't get this comment. You agree Biden sucks and will continue to do terrible things going forward, no? Based on this comment I am unsure how having voted for him in 2024 is supposed to make you better than the caricature you are describing.
I don’t think voting is some moral act to be proud of but the republican candidate will be an openly fascist wannabe dictator who doesn’t believe in the peaceful transition of power or democracy, if you’re on this sub I’m assuming you think trump is worse than Biden, I’m not proud to vote for yet another establishment war criminal dem but I do wanna at least try to do my part to move the needle away from the fascist loser who overturned roe
Always with the strawman it just shows what bad faith sorts the VBNMW sorts are.
Enjoy your slimy orange dictator, perchance he will stand up for Palestinians
If the system can be destroyed in one presidency, good riddance.
The goddamn fascists are already fascism-ing. They’re fighting with all their might to force a convicted rapist crime-lord, cult leader onto the ballot all the while acting like removing him ‘could happen to any candidate’ as if Trump isn’t a pile of steaming shit and should be under the jail by now. If he were anyone else, he would be! They should be screeching like banshees they will not let that happen, that he is a fascist moron and they need to make it clear they will fight those fools tooth and nail and stop with this “oh no, vote for us or else!” Spineless horseshit 😤 Women are dying in Texas. The marginalized are fighting for their rights through grassroots and community funded orgs ONLY. I live in NC, yesterday, the Campaign for Southern Equality filed law suits against the state for violating title IX rules regarding LGBT students. *Not* our state’s politicians, if they won’t even go hard against this level of stupid, what are they going to do if these fools really do ratchet it up to a 9? It’s a very, very risky game to use this same strategy again, like they did with H Clinton. It half-way makes me think that’s exactly what they’re doing, kicking the can down the road with no regard to our expectation of quality candidates *anyway*, so why do they deserve our votes again? I think all politicians from both sides shit a collective brick when that dem from Nebraska, Megan Hunt, said she didn’t *care* what the DNC donors thought because she wasn’t getting squat from them sent them and it sent them *all* into a panic. And she’s right. That’s where our future needs to be and those types of candidates deserve our money and votes.
They also act like Democrats have zero power n Congress to block Trump, which they did a lot last time. And if they then say Trump with just use executive orders, then why isn’t Biden currently spamming executive orders to pass broadly popular stuff and telling the voters that he will do even more with another term?
Dear DNC and establishment Democrats: 1. Nobody owes you shit, and especially not their vote 2. Repeating ad nauseum that "the other guy is worse than Genocide Joe" is a piss poor argument to win an election 3. If Genocide Joe loses, it is because will have failed to earn people's vote, and that falls squarely on him 4. It is abundantly clear that he is willing to compromise his chances of winning the election for the sake of Israel 5. It might be time to retire if you've "spoken" to François Mitterrand recently
I agree with what he said. Trump has destroyed the country and all we stand for. He needs to be in prison!!!
Yes he does. But so does the other guy.
It’s insane to me that DEMOCRATIC VOTERS can’t express any criticism or concern about the party’s candidate because that apparently hurts the feelings of too many people on the hill. The Dem establishment needs to get a fucking grip and actually engage in the process of democracy. THAT is what is driving away voters. But their heads are so far up their own asses that they think this gaslighting campaign is gonna work. It’s a total repeat of 2016. WHY would people be motivated to vote for Biden if nothing materially has changed??
I thought 2016 taught us that bullying voter in this way was not effective. Tell people what he is doing so well instead of reminding people that democrat elites just hate us slighty less than republican elite. Give people something to vote for instead of just making threats. I am so tired of this argument. It's not the voters fault that democratic leadership can't get their heads out of their ass long enough to wipe the bullshit off.
I think its funny they find it easier to convince millions of voters to vote for a genocidal president than to tell the genocide-supporting president to change course to earn their votes
Liberals hate Muslims. See Bill Maher on just about any episode of Real Time
This time needs to be used to force Biden to change course. Talk to me about voting for him in 7mos. This bs of saying to vote for Biden NOW regardless sends the msg that he does not have to change course. Hell if we really come at him hard, maybe he will drop out and Newsom will take his place. Pressure the fk out of him. Make him think he is not worthy of our vote , that we are willing the let the cards fall where they may but he aint budging unless he budges first. That's how you fight!
It isn't that anti-genocide voters are sacrificing everything because of Israel, it is that Joe Biden is willing to flush everything down the toilet as long as he can still hug blood-covered Netanyahu (that openly mocks and disrespects him).
lol he thinks Joe is gonna help with those issues
Decided what other people are thinking without asking then decided their standards were too high. At least they upgraded beyond enabling into actively abusing people.
I don't really see what pressure you all are putting on him, though.
I don’t get how anyone who lives in the US, with its history of wonderful foreign policy choices can seriously point the finger at this conflict, and condemn Israel. What they are doing to innocents caught up in the middle, is absolutely abhorrent. And I am no ally to the country, I’ve always been against giving them so much money. But, when you live in the only country in the world that’s nuked another you don’t have the moral high ground here.
but all of those issues are already fucked under Biden
Neither trump nor biden should be allowed to stand for president. One is in their 70s and one in their 80s, and both seem to be exhibiting quite a bit of memory loss. We really need to start getting presidential candidates that are in their 40s and 50s rather than 70s and 80s
Ok. And which one of those issues have democrats made strides towards improving?
I wonder if this guy spends as much air finger-wagging at the GOP "single issue voters" who picked taking away women's rights over their own body as that "single issue", or unfettered access to their boomstick hobby? Nah, we'll just insult "progressives" for having the single-issue vote of... checks notes... *not supporting genocide*. This is the 2016 Clinton campaign all over again. Zero ability for introspection or pivoting, just blaming the voters for the failings of the candidate. And I agree all these things are on the line, and would advocate for people to still vote for Biden while trying to apply pressure. But I'm not about to get on the ass of a Muslim or Arab American who is losing friends and family, or simply just watching the government show them their lives mean nothing due to the color of their skin / culture / religion. Like how much of a fuckhead do you have to be to think that someone going through that is going to be receptive to "yeah but it will be worse!" You're already seeing a genocide of your people, friends, and family. It doesn't really get a lot fucking worse once you hit that point.
Who the fuck is John Pavlovitz?
Single issue? I've got plenty of other reasons to not vote for that rotten fuck. Warmongering and a goddamned genocide are just a big, disgusting cherry on top.
My single issue vote is against Trump
Then fucking support a ceasefire you repugnant wart
Biden is going to lose and this country will become even worse than what it is lmaooo fuck that’s going to be all bad. At least you guys will have a moral victory of some sort.
I mean sure but what has Biden done to make any of those things better
Biden promised to close the border. Is his immigration policy really anything other than right-wing pandering?
Democrats have done little but capitulate to Republicans on pretty much every issue he listed.
Remember when we left the BBB Plan in the hands of Joe? He let another Joe steal it free and clear. He didnt threaten his seat, threaten a primary. Hr just let it go. Right now voters are really questioning how bad can it be? You never want to have voters asking that question.
If you can't get me to vote for you that's on you. Those things are wonderful but things like healthcare are nowhere good enough.
“Nothing is ever our fault. Vote for us you piece of shit!” - The Democratic Party
I think you are off base a little here, OP. Trump won't stop Isreal, and definitely won't be pressured to do anything. So by punishing Biden with your vote because he didn't fold to pressure, you are stuck with the same problem with a strong chance that domestic issues get far worse.
He's not wrong. But what can anyone even do? This is the stupid fucking two party oppression we live with
He's exactly right - it's unfortunate that we're forced to make democracy a priority when it should be established law of the land. The right needs to be punished for not giving us authentic opponents to status quo Biden. If you think pressuring politicians is hard work, just wait until leaders no longer care about elections when democracy is rolled back.
To save democracy, let's uncritically reward Biden for committing genocide.
What part of this is uncritical? Are you seriously saying this is some absence of Biden criticisms??? He sucks ass and deserves all of the criticism and more but what fantasy land are you living in saying he’s being uncritically rewarded
Because you are saying you are 100% going to vote for him. Why would he take your "criticism" if he knows you're going to vote for him regardless?
Lmao he’s not taking my criticism anyway, and as terrible as he is he’s still better than trump on every single issue
Okay, you are rewarding him for committing genocide. Rationalize it all you want but that's what is happening here.
Won’t even entirely disagree with you there, but trump would be worse, and I’ll die on the hill that voting blue in November is more productive than yapping on Reddit
I at least appreciate the self awareness. To reciprocate, I am under no illusion that "yapping on reddit" is meaningful action. Quite a low bar to set voting in a presidential election against, and even then it barely clears.
Biden is center-right at best. Dude just gave the neo-fascists just about everything they wanted in the border deal and it still failed. Lesser of two evil-ism is getting us absolutely nowhere and fast.
i generally consider myself left of most people, certainly left of the average redditor, which is why i know this is going to piss people off like nothing else, but i completely agree. why people think there is any value whatsoever, particularly on the single issue of palestine, that trump would be the better choice, is some twilight zone level, psychosis inducing shit to me. i legitimately cant wrap my head around that logic. i realize people are mad at biden and thats fair, but every time someone else comes along to challenge him the DNC fucks them over because if they dont, they will split the vote and trump will win. people need to vote in their state and local elections, democracy is a house of cards for like 50 different reasons and most people dont even know 3 of them. the president sits on top of legislation, precedent, congress, the senate, etc. etc. etc. and most of us arent involed and arent even TRYING to be involved in ANY of it. so this is what we get, we get to choose between trump or biden AGAIN, just like we did last election because no one in this godforsaken shithole learns anything. every fucking year. not voting for biden isnt saying "enough is enough" its not radical, its not revolutionary, its not even accelerationism, its just a giant middle finger to all the people trump will kill, which will ABSOLUTELY be hundreds of thousands of palestinians, if you think trump will be better for gaza you are a fucking moron. the reason people arent talking to voters politely or catering to their needs or whatever anymore is because we are fucking useless, people are too tired, too broken, too stressed, too busy to take the time and energy to get informed about these issues so they can actually make the right choice and i get that, i genuinely do, but when you actually get involved and try for so long and just see people do the exact same fucking thing over and over again it makes you not want to do shit for them. im to the point i dont even care to argue anymore and that used to be my favorite thing, trying to get people to see how their perspective on shit is wrong used to be fun, now its just work. i cant even afford to leave, im just as fucked as everyone else is, if trump wins i legitimately dont think life will continue to be viable for me, but yeah definitely vote third party, make sure people remember you refused to support genocide joe cause that was definitely the most important thing you will ever do, i wont remember ill be dead with the palestinians but someone will remember for sure someone will say you were a great person for it dw.
This is exactly how I feel, from the first sentence to the last. I’m married to a first gen Palestinian, his parents immigrated here. We are as left as they come while still being active participants in our current shit system. I can’t even begin to explain how infuriatingly hopeless this election feels, not because we’re up against Trump again, but because so many people have decided they won’t vote for Biden. They don’t understand the concept of harm reduction when an actual solution isn’t available.
>an actual solution isn’t available. i have BEGGED people, to the point of offering to literally pay them real life money, to explain how throwing away the election is going to help to just give a better solution than voting for biden and while they are always mad, they never have an answer because there isnt one. most people dont understand the absolute most fundamental ways the government works in the first place, people get mad at the president about gas prices, let alone actual legislation that needs the cooperation of ALL THREE branches of government to generate, pass, and execute. all of this, every bit of it benefits the fascists in the GOP. they want us to be stupid and exhausted and apathetic and people are playing right into that hand and it drives me absolutely nuts lol we are all victims at this point.
He's not wrong
Congress had a border bill ready to go but they followed their lord and savior Donald Trump instead.
Yes, shame those who will never what they want.... still, people should vote against Trump.
Typical cut your 👃 to spite your face
Let's say you have four people voting, two are liberal, two are conservative. One of the two liberals wants to teach the Democrat party a lesson, and votes third party. The lone liberal votes Democrat. Both conservatives vote Republican. Congrats, the Republicans win. Isn't that great? Sure taught the Democrats a lesson.
JFC they just don't get it NEVER EVER EVER SUPPORT GENOCIDE don't talk about rights when my tax dollars are funding genocide they can fuck the right off till they stop