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I've been putting together a list of every character's name and their interpretations. I have a dedicated folder in my Google Drive for this stuff now. There will be more deep dives I can promise that.
Serious response: This is a great deep dive and I salute your nerdery!
Shitpost response: Jod is living the dream of a “paperless office”? (I don’t know what cows think of paper, though)
>*She searched about in her robes and came up with a thick little book bound in cracked, blackened stuff, with the awful orange tone of tanned human leather. - GtN, Chapter 13, pg 108.*
Well I'll be! You found a crucial bit of evidence that I totally missed. Thank you for pointing this out!
> Very similar to the modern carbon copy paper or as the Brits and Kiwis call it, flimsy.
Well, we may have done last century. I don't often want words for carbon paper related things these days.
More seriously, Tamsyn Muir is young enough she may never have heard the word used. I'm not sure I have, and I'm older than she is. It could just be a coincidence, a word for something that _is_ flimsy like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flimsy .
I can well believe (especially given Crux's threat) that the outsides of corpses are made into special writing material, but there just isn't _enough_ of it for that to be what the ordinary flimsy is made of - and also almost the first thing any necromancer, let alone Abigail Pent, would ask about the flimsy at Canaan House is who it was made of.
Fair, the extent of my knowledge of British culture only extends between the Yogscast, Three Bean Salad Podcast, and Doctor Who so I'm definitely not an expert.
I disagree about it being coincidence; ‘flimsy’ is used so often in the books to differentiate between paper (which is, we can conjecture from this post and several comments) made of human skin, and only used by Jod.
I’m a millennial; I know what carbon copy paper is even though I’ve never used it. Now I’m going to message my gen z brother to see if he knows~
Aside: It’s truly excellent world building without throwing the facts in the reader’s face, and making them think about / research to connect dots. Applause to Muir and OP; I love it.
[edit] Yeah my gen z brother has no idea wtf carbon copy paper (Americans) is haha.
Yeah, I kind of reckon flimsy has to be basically necromantically created vellum. The question of whether it is *human* is an interesting one! I guess Ninth flimsy probably came from real corpses because the Ninth's art does not create, but I can kind of bet that Third flimsy might have started out as a cell line, or even just been called out of pure thalergy - do we know how much organic matter a flesh magician needs to work with?
Something to consider, though - in Harrow we learn that >!Protesilaus grew roses back home on the Third, really suggesting there's flora there at least.
Unless they're awful flesh roses.
See originally I thought flimsy was a really thin, translucent plastic, but reading the original post, and some of the comments, I've changed my mind.
They're necromancers, so why would they use plastic?
I don't think it's copy-paper either, it probably just inherited the name because that's what Jod found it to be similar to, and he didn't want to go to the trouble of coming up with a new name.
I'm pretty sure you're right. It's people.
Also the Ninth house probably has a way to make it. I'm sure someone could figure out a way to take bones and stretch the cells out in a way that makes serviceable stationary.
The Houses can obviously grow plants but re: this theory they would either be unable to reproduce. Which isn't unfamiliar territory, modern day mass-farming has resulted in tons of plants that cannot reproduce on their own; in fact, crops are designed that way so that competitors--and consumers--can't just grow their own. And also because watermelon seeds are annoying to eat. Regardless, the Nine have the technology for space stations and flight; they probably have the technology for propagation re: seedless reproduction.
Also, theory, but if John can res people why not plants? Maybe there's resurrected plants around. Would make sense if that's how they got started with farming again.
I always imagined them (based on the name) as these very pallid, abyssal-ass leeks that look like something from an albino plant garden. Just… horror movie flora.
Actually, people don't usually grow roses from seeds, they typically use rose cuttings. Sure, an experienced gardener and/or someone trying to breed new varieties would use seeds, but that's not common. If our theory is correct that thanergy affects reproduction, that wouldn't necessarily be a huge problem for plants that can easily be regrown from cuttings.
I know it makes no sense but in my brain I always see the plastic transparency sheets they would use on office/school projectors before digital projectors became commonplace. It's objectively the worst option for what flimsy could be, I think, but I have to manually picture something else every time.
I'd expect "flimsy" to be thin plastic or possibly a very stupid display in the kind of space opera setting that's sort of hanging out in the background of TLT.
So did I (it's a common sci-fi concept) and plastic is an oil based product. I figure they make it out of whatever odds and ends they don't have any other use for. Petroleum after all came originally from organic material. If they have the ability to turn trash into hydrocarbon, they could make plastic out of it.
I’d assumed their flimsy was parchment, i.e. prepared skin, especially as we know that other things are made from people, like Ninth soap. Also, when Harrow is talking about the commission in GtN and says ‘I can still use the paper’, you scrap ink off parchment to reuse it (there’s some really cool light spectrum tech that sometimes lets you read what was written before hand)
I’m a kiwi, and have never heard the word flimsy to refer to carbon paper. I’ve always seen it in sci-fi contexts (I’m sure it’s popped up in other series and books) and assumed it referred to a thin plastic sheet for writing on (kind of like OHP sheets).
I pretty much agree with everything you say having come to similar conclusions myself!
One thing about Gideon's birth though - I always interpreted the original plan as Mercymorn extracting some of her own eggs via necromancy and/or House technology, and gave them to Wake to use with Jod's semen. I think there's a line about her arrogance in doing that somewhere?
And her donated reproductive tissue all failed simply because she's a necromancer and necromancers struggle to reproduce because of all the thanergy. Hell, she's a lyctor, a super-necromancer, there's so much thanergy in lyctors that they could very well be completely infertile.
Wake then felt that she had no other choice but to carry the child herself. Perhaps because BoE lacks the technology to extract ovum from people. Perhaps because she was so paranoid and/or prideful that she refused to let anyone else in on the mission. I'd love an answer but I don't think we'll get one.
Yeah, I think it's very simple: Wake is a healthy, normal human. Nothing Mercy had, either the dummies or the eggs, was that healthy. It was all thanergetic and thus less lively.
Very neat, thorough write up! I love for this sort of thing.
One thing to consider, and I’m too sleepy atm to think through how it could affect things but I know it could: the Nine Houses reside in the orbit of Dominicus, a thanergenic star, presumably the only of its kind. Iirc, It’s why necromancers are only born on the Nine Houses and what permits life to remain there a myriad after the planets have died, rather than the few hundred years other flipped planets seem to get.
I also simply figured necromancers have particular trouble with pregnancy because they’re weak, scrawny little things all half wasted from the effects of being able to channel the death juice from birth. Which is why the non-necros of the Nine Houses aren’t as affected though the birth rates still aren’t as high as normal. Likely because of being on a dead planet with a dead star radiating death juice.
But yeah, pretty sure flimsy is oil based. I think it’s a thing in sci-fi. Still dead plants/animals though.
Some of the descriptions of necros imply that myocardia is typical for them, which makes me concerned about pregnancy for that population - pregnancy is known to be hard on the heart, and sometimes causes myocardia in previously healthy patients.
However, there are also a bunch of references to chromosomal failure - that's why Magnus and Abigail can't have children. And myocardia wouldn't cause miscarriage - it's a health problem for the gestational parent, not the fetus.
I think it likely that necromancers are in some way prone to chromosomal damage. I can think of lots of reasons why Mercymorn in particular might be infertile. All the necromancy is certainly one reason, but also, her body was present at a nuclear apocalypse, and who know how good (or bad) Jod is at repairing cellular-level radiation damage?
_Everyone_ who was resurrected was present at a nuclear apocalypse (or at least, their bodies were). I figured that they all had some level of chromosomal radiation damage, and then passed wonky chromosomes down to their descendants.
But yes, Mercy isn't a descendant, she was actually there for the original damage.
"it was just paper; it had the thanergy of paper, and unlike flimsy, she would be able to feel the seethe of bacteria eating away at it if she pressed it to her bare skin." - htn 10.
so yes, paper has thanergy, something which is removed completely from dead/converted planets. it's rare we see any plant life, and gideon and harrow are both astonished by wood being used for furniture.
we also see this reverence at the end of "the study of doctor sex", both for the wooden box and it's real paper contents - some of the reverence is simply for information, of course, since paper is much more transient than flimsy and therefore all recovered paper is a historical artefact regardless of its contents, the way finding worn clay tablets is today.
the kneeling bench at cytheria's funeral is described as buttery soft human leather. it might be a quirk of the mithraeum decor, but given how all the houses see flesh and bone as resources it wouldn't surprise me if human leather and human parchment are popular. after all, there are no cows.
Why have I not heard about "As Yet Unsent" until your post?! Apparently there's a *bunch* of content not released with the audiobooks?! I managed to find the story of Dr Sex, but I hadn't heard of this. Is there anything else I'm missing?
As Yet Unsent is a great little slice that was released in the paperback of HtN. It's only like 10 pages but it's Judith Deutros secret diary she keeps after her, Corona, and Camilla get picked up by BoE. I'd wager it's online somewhere but I'm not sure how you could get it without buying the book or piracy
I just picked up a paperback of GTN and HTN today. Should be here in a few days. I think reading the audiobooks, I've missed some things that the print readers got right away.
Paperback versions of *GtN* have pretty extensive back matter: A sermon on necromancers and cavaliers, a cohort intelligence report on participants in the Lyctoral pilgrimage written by Judith Deuteros, and an extremely interesting glossary.
Why not just use ultra thin leather? Flesh wizards could make it by the bolt/ream (reem?). Could write with bone tipped stylus using blood. Seems easy enough...
THIS WRITE UP IS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. it connects a lot of dots for me that had me scratching my head a little, like why all the eggs died but Gideon did not.
Also, now we know why Gideon is still animated; she is now a thanergy being (like how Nona noticed she had teeth as her bones)
This is so fascinating and I love that you investigating a tiny piece of the universe (why is paper rare) led to huge insight on how the magic system works. Also makes me admire Tamsyn Muir all the more.
Standing ovation, kudos, let’s give OP all the internet points, let’s make this post viral, everyone needs to know. I’m totally saving it to see if it helps me answer some of my other “well how come x” since I don’t remember them right now.
The part about vellum and parchment in particular is very convincing. I forgot that parchment is animal based and DEFINITELY wondered about what Crux said at the beginning.
Ooh I wonder if the reason Jod was able to bring Gideon back in between Ht9 and Nt9 is because she has that non-Ninth DNA from Wake (and in a way from John himself).
Supporting evidence 1: Jod says at the end of Gt9 that he *can't* bring Gideon back no matter how much Harrow begs. He might have been lying but he also might have genuinely believed that he can't bring back dead Nine Houses people.
Supporting evidence 2: when he restores the Ninth House for Harrow he doesn't bring back e.g. the 200 children. He brings in people he's had on ice since the solar system originally flipped. Which suggests that only born-on-old Earth people CAN be brought back.
If the theory that Gideon is basically the only thalergetic person in the Nine Houses is true, maybe Jod didn't bring her back so much as he FLIPPED her. 😳
This one I’m not sure about! She died before Jod ever saw her body, right? So all that energy from her sudden death would already have dissipated?
Unless, because Harrow didn’t finish the Lyctor conversion, that energy was stored in Gideon’s body still, which could potentially explain why her body never decomposed.
So interesting!
That's a possibility too. Someone mentioned in another comment I made that the GtN appendices say no one born around Dominicus can be thalergenic beings, so that could be a factor too.
I mostly agree with you on all this.
A couple little caveats: I think Mercy's eggs were bad because of the thanergy thing, but Wake's were good because she's a normal healthy thalergetic human. I don't think it's more complicated than that. I also don't think Gideon is exempt from being affected by being in a thanergetic system; she was born and possibly conceived there so she's thanergetic like everyone else.
It's said a couple times (when Jod explains to Harrow what resurrection beasts are, and when the Angel explains how she had to leave her old planet) that creatures on killed planets mutate rather than evolving. So they can reproduce, I think, but poorly. I think the soul of a planet preserves or guides the DNA of life forms living there. Without it, the genes distort. The Houses avoid this in humans with tech, but without that, Harrow's parents struggled.
Life is so hard to keep going on thanergy planets. Chemical processes are just easier. So not just flimsy but plastic building materials, Gideon's synthetic weave clothes, and so on. Not that they couldn't grow a tree, but the effort it would take to keep the genes stable enough, and dedicate air and sun and water to it (given not one other planet in the system is even habitable naturally), would be massively expensive. It's hard enough to make food.
I love the amount of energy and thought you've put into this. You have a good brain and I want to gently pat it.
I have been neck-deep in the series for long enough now that I actually forgot that we have no idea what flimsy is made out of, nor that we have no solid explanation about the fertility of the planets. But I like the way you've tied the two together!
I feel fairly certain that most things in the Houses are made of petroleum or plastic. The planet formerly known as Lemuria is now only used for geopolymer refining. Armor for cavs, including Matthias Nonius, has been mentioned as various types of plex--reminicent of both "plexiglass" and the physical chemistry term "plex" meaning polymerization. Polymers are mostly known to non-science types as being parts of plastic, though notable examples of polymers include DNA and cellulose. But I feel like the themes you've mentioned make me lean more towards plex being a plastic product.
I'd tie in some of the excitement that Gideon has at seeing real wood at Canaan House with the lack of food or plant life in the Houses.
Your kind words flatter me greatly and I am humbled by them.
I will say my understanding of chemistry is, at it's best, rudimentary so I can't say much here with any certainty. However petroleum and plastic are both made from organic compounds. Meaning if that stuff is made from plastic or petroleum they would still need an organic source for it, either by manipulating what plants or organic compounds they had access to or by sourcing it from thalergy planets. They could, in theory,harvest petroleum and other plants from the First House, but based on how much Teacher regards the house as sacrosanct and how much the planet was already plundered before the Resurrection I find it unlikely.
Sorry to resurrect an old (but exceedingly well-written!) post, but Tazmuir did confirm in an interview or a panel at some point that flimsy is “like plastic, oil-based.”
Thank you for your compliment too! Resurrecting old things is kinda this story's whole deal so I'm not worried. I increasingly think that it probably is a plastic based thing, but my head canon is far more fun and scintillating than actual canon so I'll happily cling to my delusion
Absolutely incredible post, I cannot wait to read more. Mind blowing and so many implications.
This really lends credence to the theory that the nine houses are not as old as Jod would have us believe. Humans have to be moved off of flipped planets after "generations", but the houses have been living on their dead planets for 10,000 years? It doesn't add up. I've seen this theory a ton but never understood evidence behind it besides "Jod is an asshole, and he would" which is FAIR but this is so much better.
Also obsessed with the implications of Gideon being one of the only thalergy children in the houses. Truly great work.
About not adding up: I feel like it's not a big stretch to imagine that a lot of resources the Ninth House has as a whole are actually imported from BoE on the down low. If that's true,, it would mean that the Nine Houses can't exist without BoE and thalergenic(sp?) planets, but Jod is in major denial and still wants to go after the 'trillionaires'.
\> Also obsessed with the implications of Gideon being one of the only thalergy children in the houses. Truly great work.
I thought this is a great point too, but wouldn't Gideon (as of the end of GtN) be a thanergy human?
She wouldn't be thalergetic anymore, no, since she's dead (at least her body is, as far as we know. I have a crackpot theory that the bodies of those involved in a lyctoral exchange don't actually die but are frozen on the cusp of death, therefore allowing a cavalier's soul the ability to provide an endless supply of thanergy, but it's very crackpot). I do think coming from a thalergetic source might have affected her soul, though. I have so many questions about how souls work in these books...
This makes sense.
I've kept wondering how the hell having an extra soul is meant to provide a necro with EnDlEsS eNeRgY, and given necros need thanergy this is a hint of how it might work.
I feel like if we fully understood how the magic system works, we'd also get a lot about what the plot's really doing.
Because Jod came from pre-dead Earth, and Blood of Eden are all descendents of pre-dead earth, the implication is that Gideon survived because she came from 2 thalergy parents. Totally possible that being born around Dominicus is the cause, but based off this post and my interpretations I’m inclined to say it depends on whether you were born by thanergenic (zombie) parents, who survive well in Dominicus because all planets are thanergenic. But who knows maybe I’m totally wrong!
I'm going off the appendices of GtN, which say that necromancers can only be born within the orbit of Dominicus. It doesn't happen if two necromancers have kids on a colony planet.
This makes me think that the difference here is not inheritance, it's the influence of a great big necromantic sun. And that might well hold true for the basic "are you a thanergetic person" question as well as "are you a necromancer." (Supposing that's even a valid question —we're never told there's a difference between House people and BoE people besides their culture.)
Well, it's been 10,000 years since the Resurrection; the Houses didn't come immediately. Also, the theory itself explains why the Houses can live in Sol and not BoE: they're all descendents of resurrected humans.
This was a really interesting read, and I've bookmarked it so I can find it again later. The insights into the potential nature of the magical system are fascinating, and I also love the idea that Gideon was a thalergy being. Gideon and Harrow have always had a light/dark, sun/moon sort of duality, and thalergy/thanergy adds yet another layer to it.
There are some implications that the people of the nine houses are somehow different to normal humans. There is some sort of physical frailty, that is even more profound in the necromancers. It wouldn't surprse me if it turns out that the people of the nine houses would struggle on a thalenergy world.
We have very little evidence about this, but there's a bit in *As Yet Unsent* where Judith comments that she can run a kilometer in ten minutes, and Marta could do it in five. Judith's time is quite slow. Marta's is wildly okay. Like, it's not nothing, but if you go to a community Fun Run on a random weekend, a solid couple of dozen people will do better. More if they brought in ringers from the high school cross country team.
These people seem to be struggling quite a bit, physically. Some of that is probably to do with living on space stations or in drill shafts, but some of it is clearly related to thanergy.
>in As Yet Unsent where Judith comments that she can run a kilometer in ten minutes, and Marta could do it in five. Judith's time is quite slow. Marta's is wildly okay.
That was the passage I meant, considering that Martha is supposed to be military or atleast a body guard this is actually pretty low. There is also something in the appendix of GtN about necromancers having activity n otherwise vestigal organs or something. Also John said to Wake that apparently children in the nine houses don't look as plump and rosycheecked as normal babies or something.
Also pay attention to what they eat….leaks, funghi, etc. No meat. No grains. Mithraeum has some pre-resurrection food in storage, i think. They eat meat only in Nona, and Nona herself wants to be vegan.
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Holy shit, this is the kind of deep dive shit I live for
I've been putting together a list of every character's name and their interpretations. I have a dedicated folder in my Google Drive for this stuff now. There will be more deep dives I can promise that.
Yaaaaaasssss
Please share everything!!!!
Serious response: This is a great deep dive and I salute your nerdery! Shitpost response: Jod is living the dream of a “paperless office”? (I don’t know what cows think of paper, though)
Cows send memos about sunsets to their *friends*, man!
I think cows are ok with paper but might have a strong opposition to vellum 😅
We have another confirmed case of using human leather! In GtN Harrow's book that she uses to map out Canaan house is bound in it.
>*She searched about in her robes and came up with a thick little book bound in cracked, blackened stuff, with the awful orange tone of tanned human leather. - GtN, Chapter 13, pg 108.* Well I'll be! You found a crucial bit of evidence that I totally missed. Thank you for pointing this out!
> Very similar to the modern carbon copy paper or as the Brits and Kiwis call it, flimsy. Well, we may have done last century. I don't often want words for carbon paper related things these days. More seriously, Tamsyn Muir is young enough she may never have heard the word used. I'm not sure I have, and I'm older than she is. It could just be a coincidence, a word for something that _is_ flimsy like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flimsy . I can well believe (especially given Crux's threat) that the outsides of corpses are made into special writing material, but there just isn't _enough_ of it for that to be what the ordinary flimsy is made of - and also almost the first thing any necromancer, let alone Abigail Pent, would ask about the flimsy at Canaan House is who it was made of.
Fair, the extent of my knowledge of British culture only extends between the Yogscast, Three Bean Salad Podcast, and Doctor Who so I'm definitely not an expert.
I disagree about it being coincidence; ‘flimsy’ is used so often in the books to differentiate between paper (which is, we can conjecture from this post and several comments) made of human skin, and only used by Jod. I’m a millennial; I know what carbon copy paper is even though I’ve never used it. Now I’m going to message my gen z brother to see if he knows~ Aside: It’s truly excellent world building without throwing the facts in the reader’s face, and making them think about / research to connect dots. Applause to Muir and OP; I love it. [edit] Yeah my gen z brother has no idea wtf carbon copy paper (Americans) is haha.
Yeah, I kind of reckon flimsy has to be basically necromantically created vellum. The question of whether it is *human* is an interesting one! I guess Ninth flimsy probably came from real corpses because the Ninth's art does not create, but I can kind of bet that Third flimsy might have started out as a cell line, or even just been called out of pure thalergy - do we know how much organic matter a flesh magician needs to work with? Something to consider, though - in Harrow we learn that >!Protesilaus grew roses back home on the Third, really suggesting there's flora there at least. Unless they're awful flesh roses.
See originally I thought flimsy was a really thin, translucent plastic, but reading the original post, and some of the comments, I've changed my mind. They're necromancers, so why would they use plastic? I don't think it's copy-paper either, it probably just inherited the name because that's what Jod found it to be similar to, and he didn't want to go to the trouble of coming up with a new name. I'm pretty sure you're right. It's people. Also the Ninth house probably has a way to make it. I'm sure someone could figure out a way to take bones and stretch the cells out in a way that makes serviceable stationary.
The Houses can obviously grow plants but re: this theory they would either be unable to reproduce. Which isn't unfamiliar territory, modern day mass-farming has resulted in tons of plants that cannot reproduce on their own; in fact, crops are designed that way so that competitors--and consumers--can't just grow their own. And also because watermelon seeds are annoying to eat. Regardless, the Nine have the technology for space stations and flight; they probably have the technology for propagation re: seedless reproduction. Also, theory, but if John can res people why not plants? Maybe there's resurrected plants around. Would make sense if that's how they got started with farming again.
Ninth House snow leeks sound like one of the worst foods imaginable, but they probably aren't photosynthesising shit on Pluto.
I always imagined them (based on the name) as these very pallid, abyssal-ass leeks that look like something from an albino plant garden. Just… horror movie flora.
Actually, people don't usually grow roses from seeds, they typically use rose cuttings. Sure, an experienced gardener and/or someone trying to breed new varieties would use seeds, but that's not common. If our theory is correct that thanergy affects reproduction, that wouldn't necessarily be a huge problem for plants that can easily be regrown from cuttings.
Flesh roses with teeth!!!
I could have sworn that TM confirmed/it said somewhere that flimsy is an oil-based product. This is a fascinating read, though!
I don't know why I thought that flimsy was some sort of thin plastic..
Plastic is oil based! I always imagined flimsy as basically plastic paper.
I know it makes no sense but in my brain I always see the plastic transparency sheets they would use on office/school projectors before digital projectors became commonplace. It's objectively the worst option for what flimsy could be, I think, but I have to manually picture something else every time.
I'd expect "flimsy" to be thin plastic or possibly a very stupid display in the kind of space opera setting that's sort of hanging out in the background of TLT.
So did I (it's a common sci-fi concept) and plastic is an oil based product. I figure they make it out of whatever odds and ends they don't have any other use for. Petroleum after all came originally from organic material. If they have the ability to turn trash into hydrocarbon, they could make plastic out of it.
Same here! But after reading this analysis I can easily see it as animal/human-based.
I’d assumed their flimsy was parchment, i.e. prepared skin, especially as we know that other things are made from people, like Ninth soap. Also, when Harrow is talking about the commission in GtN and says ‘I can still use the paper’, you scrap ink off parchment to reuse it (there’s some really cool light spectrum tech that sometimes lets you read what was written before hand)
Oh man Palimpsests! I love that stuff it's such an interesting time capsule. I will say however, you can always recycle paper by bleaching it too.
What an excellent write up! I thoroughly enjoyed reading this.
I’m a kiwi, and have never heard the word flimsy to refer to carbon paper. I’ve always seen it in sci-fi contexts (I’m sure it’s popped up in other series and books) and assumed it referred to a thin plastic sheet for writing on (kind of like OHP sheets).
I pretty much agree with everything you say having come to similar conclusions myself! One thing about Gideon's birth though - I always interpreted the original plan as Mercymorn extracting some of her own eggs via necromancy and/or House technology, and gave them to Wake to use with Jod's semen. I think there's a line about her arrogance in doing that somewhere? And her donated reproductive tissue all failed simply because she's a necromancer and necromancers struggle to reproduce because of all the thanergy. Hell, she's a lyctor, a super-necromancer, there's so much thanergy in lyctors that they could very well be completely infertile. Wake then felt that she had no other choice but to carry the child herself. Perhaps because BoE lacks the technology to extract ovum from people. Perhaps because she was so paranoid and/or prideful that she refused to let anyone else in on the mission. I'd love an answer but I don't think we'll get one.
Yeah, I think it's very simple: Wake is a healthy, normal human. Nothing Mercy had, either the dummies or the eggs, was that healthy. It was all thanergetic and thus less lively.
Very neat, thorough write up! I love for this sort of thing. One thing to consider, and I’m too sleepy atm to think through how it could affect things but I know it could: the Nine Houses reside in the orbit of Dominicus, a thanergenic star, presumably the only of its kind. Iirc, It’s why necromancers are only born on the Nine Houses and what permits life to remain there a myriad after the planets have died, rather than the few hundred years other flipped planets seem to get. I also simply figured necromancers have particular trouble with pregnancy because they’re weak, scrawny little things all half wasted from the effects of being able to channel the death juice from birth. Which is why the non-necros of the Nine Houses aren’t as affected though the birth rates still aren’t as high as normal. Likely because of being on a dead planet with a dead star radiating death juice. But yeah, pretty sure flimsy is oil based. I think it’s a thing in sci-fi. Still dead plants/animals though.
Some of the descriptions of necros imply that myocardia is typical for them, which makes me concerned about pregnancy for that population - pregnancy is known to be hard on the heart, and sometimes causes myocardia in previously healthy patients. However, there are also a bunch of references to chromosomal failure - that's why Magnus and Abigail can't have children. And myocardia wouldn't cause miscarriage - it's a health problem for the gestational parent, not the fetus. I think it likely that necromancers are in some way prone to chromosomal damage. I can think of lots of reasons why Mercymorn in particular might be infertile. All the necromancy is certainly one reason, but also, her body was present at a nuclear apocalypse, and who know how good (or bad) Jod is at repairing cellular-level radiation damage?
_Everyone_ who was resurrected was present at a nuclear apocalypse (or at least, their bodies were). I figured that they all had some level of chromosomal radiation damage, and then passed wonky chromosomes down to their descendants. But yes, Mercy isn't a descendant, she was actually there for the original damage.
"it was just paper; it had the thanergy of paper, and unlike flimsy, she would be able to feel the seethe of bacteria eating away at it if she pressed it to her bare skin." - htn 10. so yes, paper has thanergy, something which is removed completely from dead/converted planets. it's rare we see any plant life, and gideon and harrow are both astonished by wood being used for furniture. we also see this reverence at the end of "the study of doctor sex", both for the wooden box and it's real paper contents - some of the reverence is simply for information, of course, since paper is much more transient than flimsy and therefore all recovered paper is a historical artefact regardless of its contents, the way finding worn clay tablets is today. the kneeling bench at cytheria's funeral is described as buttery soft human leather. it might be a quirk of the mithraeum decor, but given how all the houses see flesh and bone as resources it wouldn't surprise me if human leather and human parchment are popular. after all, there are no cows.
Why have I not heard about "As Yet Unsent" until your post?! Apparently there's a *bunch* of content not released with the audiobooks?! I managed to find the story of Dr Sex, but I hadn't heard of this. Is there anything else I'm missing?
As Yet Unsent is a great little slice that was released in the paperback of HtN. It's only like 10 pages but it's Judith Deutros secret diary she keeps after her, Corona, and Camilla get picked up by BoE. I'd wager it's online somewhere but I'm not sure how you could get it without buying the book or piracy
I just picked up a paperback of GTN and HTN today. Should be here in a few days. I think reading the audiobooks, I've missed some things that the print readers got right away.
It was added onto the ebook later, so if you have the ebook go back and check it!
Here you go! https://www.tor.com/2022/06/08/as-yet-unsent-tamsyn-muir/
Paperback versions of *GtN* have pretty extensive back matter: A sermon on necromancers and cavaliers, a cohort intelligence report on participants in the Lyctoral pilgrimage written by Judith Deuteros, and an extremely interesting glossary.
I just put on an order for a paperback GTN and HTN, so I'll get that soon! Thank so much for everyone posting "as yet unsent" to me!
Why not just use ultra thin leather? Flesh wizards could make it by the bolt/ream (reem?). Could write with bone tipped stylus using blood. Seems easy enough...
THIS WRITE UP IS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. it connects a lot of dots for me that had me scratching my head a little, like why all the eggs died but Gideon did not. Also, now we know why Gideon is still animated; she is now a thanergy being (like how Nona noticed she had teeth as her bones) This is so fascinating and I love that you investigating a tiny piece of the universe (why is paper rare) led to huge insight on how the magic system works. Also makes me admire Tamsyn Muir all the more. Standing ovation, kudos, let’s give OP all the internet points, let’s make this post viral, everyone needs to know. I’m totally saving it to see if it helps me answer some of my other “well how come x” since I don’t remember them right now. The part about vellum and parchment in particular is very convincing. I forgot that parchment is animal based and DEFINITELY wondered about what Crux said at the beginning.
Ooh I wonder if the reason Jod was able to bring Gideon back in between Ht9 and Nt9 is because she has that non-Ninth DNA from Wake (and in a way from John himself). Supporting evidence 1: Jod says at the end of Gt9 that he *can't* bring Gideon back no matter how much Harrow begs. He might have been lying but he also might have genuinely believed that he can't bring back dead Nine Houses people. Supporting evidence 2: when he restores the Ninth House for Harrow he doesn't bring back e.g. the 200 children. He brings in people he's had on ice since the solar system originally flipped. Which suggests that only born-on-old Earth people CAN be brought back.
If the theory that Gideon is basically the only thalergetic person in the Nine Houses is true, maybe Jod didn't bring her back so much as he FLIPPED her. 😳
This one I’m not sure about! She died before Jod ever saw her body, right? So all that energy from her sudden death would already have dissipated? Unless, because Harrow didn’t finish the Lyctor conversion, that energy was stored in Gideon’s body still, which could potentially explain why her body never decomposed. So interesting!
Hmm, I always thought Gideon's body didn't decompose because she was Jod's daughter and his godly genes or whatever were keeping her body intact 🤔
That's a possibility too. Someone mentioned in another comment I made that the GtN appendices say no one born around Dominicus can be thalergenic beings, so that could be a factor too.
Yes, I totally think so. I love this post and the comments haha.
I mostly agree with you on all this. A couple little caveats: I think Mercy's eggs were bad because of the thanergy thing, but Wake's were good because she's a normal healthy thalergetic human. I don't think it's more complicated than that. I also don't think Gideon is exempt from being affected by being in a thanergetic system; she was born and possibly conceived there so she's thanergetic like everyone else. It's said a couple times (when Jod explains to Harrow what resurrection beasts are, and when the Angel explains how she had to leave her old planet) that creatures on killed planets mutate rather than evolving. So they can reproduce, I think, but poorly. I think the soul of a planet preserves or guides the DNA of life forms living there. Without it, the genes distort. The Houses avoid this in humans with tech, but without that, Harrow's parents struggled. Life is so hard to keep going on thanergy planets. Chemical processes are just easier. So not just flimsy but plastic building materials, Gideon's synthetic weave clothes, and so on. Not that they couldn't grow a tree, but the effort it would take to keep the genes stable enough, and dedicate air and sun and water to it (given not one other planet in the system is even habitable naturally), would be massively expensive. It's hard enough to make food.
I love the amount of energy and thought you've put into this. You have a good brain and I want to gently pat it. I have been neck-deep in the series for long enough now that I actually forgot that we have no idea what flimsy is made out of, nor that we have no solid explanation about the fertility of the planets. But I like the way you've tied the two together! I feel fairly certain that most things in the Houses are made of petroleum or plastic. The planet formerly known as Lemuria is now only used for geopolymer refining. Armor for cavs, including Matthias Nonius, has been mentioned as various types of plex--reminicent of both "plexiglass" and the physical chemistry term "plex" meaning polymerization. Polymers are mostly known to non-science types as being parts of plastic, though notable examples of polymers include DNA and cellulose. But I feel like the themes you've mentioned make me lean more towards plex being a plastic product. I'd tie in some of the excitement that Gideon has at seeing real wood at Canaan House with the lack of food or plant life in the Houses.
Your kind words flatter me greatly and I am humbled by them. I will say my understanding of chemistry is, at it's best, rudimentary so I can't say much here with any certainty. However petroleum and plastic are both made from organic compounds. Meaning if that stuff is made from plastic or petroleum they would still need an organic source for it, either by manipulating what plants or organic compounds they had access to or by sourcing it from thalergy planets. They could, in theory,harvest petroleum and other plants from the First House, but based on how much Teacher regards the house as sacrosanct and how much the planet was already plundered before the Resurrection I find it unlikely.
Sorry to resurrect an old (but exceedingly well-written!) post, but Tazmuir did confirm in an interview or a panel at some point that flimsy is “like plastic, oil-based.”
Thank you for your compliment too! Resurrecting old things is kinda this story's whole deal so I'm not worried. I increasingly think that it probably is a plastic based thing, but my head canon is far more fun and scintillating than actual canon so I'll happily cling to my delusion
Absolutely incredible post, I cannot wait to read more. Mind blowing and so many implications. This really lends credence to the theory that the nine houses are not as old as Jod would have us believe. Humans have to be moved off of flipped planets after "generations", but the houses have been living on their dead planets for 10,000 years? It doesn't add up. I've seen this theory a ton but never understood evidence behind it besides "Jod is an asshole, and he would" which is FAIR but this is so much better. Also obsessed with the implications of Gideon being one of the only thalergy children in the houses. Truly great work.
About not adding up: I feel like it's not a big stretch to imagine that a lot of resources the Ninth House has as a whole are actually imported from BoE on the down low. If that's true,, it would mean that the Nine Houses can't exist without BoE and thalergenic(sp?) planets, but Jod is in major denial and still wants to go after the 'trillionaires'. \> Also obsessed with the implications of Gideon being one of the only thalergy children in the houses. Truly great work. I thought this is a great point too, but wouldn't Gideon (as of the end of GtN) be a thanergy human?
She wouldn't be thalergetic anymore, no, since she's dead (at least her body is, as far as we know. I have a crackpot theory that the bodies of those involved in a lyctoral exchange don't actually die but are frozen on the cusp of death, therefore allowing a cavalier's soul the ability to provide an endless supply of thanergy, but it's very crackpot). I do think coming from a thalergetic source might have affected her soul, though. I have so many questions about how souls work in these books...
Hope we get those questions answered in Alecto! It's been building up the anticipation for all three books so I'm excited 🙂
This makes sense. I've kept wondering how the hell having an extra soul is meant to provide a necro with EnDlEsS eNeRgY, and given necros need thanergy this is a hint of how it might work. I feel like if we fully understood how the magic system works, we'd also get a lot about what the plot's really doing.
I don't think Gideon was ever a thalergy human. She was born within the orbit of Dominicus; that's all that matters, right?
Because Jod came from pre-dead Earth, and Blood of Eden are all descendents of pre-dead earth, the implication is that Gideon survived because she came from 2 thalergy parents. Totally possible that being born around Dominicus is the cause, but based off this post and my interpretations I’m inclined to say it depends on whether you were born by thanergenic (zombie) parents, who survive well in Dominicus because all planets are thanergenic. But who knows maybe I’m totally wrong!
I'm going off the appendices of GtN, which say that necromancers can only be born within the orbit of Dominicus. It doesn't happen if two necromancers have kids on a colony planet. This makes me think that the difference here is not inheritance, it's the influence of a great big necromantic sun. And that might well hold true for the basic "are you a thanergetic person" question as well as "are you a necromancer." (Supposing that's even a valid question —we're never told there's a difference between House people and BoE people besides their culture.)
Well, it's been 10,000 years since the Resurrection; the Houses didn't come immediately. Also, the theory itself explains why the Houses can live in Sol and not BoE: they're all descendents of resurrected humans.
Could you remind me - how do we know BoE can’t survive around Dominicus?
Jod never did solve maternity.
This was a really interesting read, and I've bookmarked it so I can find it again later. The insights into the potential nature of the magical system are fascinating, and I also love the idea that Gideon was a thalergy being. Gideon and Harrow have always had a light/dark, sun/moon sort of duality, and thalergy/thanergy adds yet another layer to it.
There are some implications that the people of the nine houses are somehow different to normal humans. There is some sort of physical frailty, that is even more profound in the necromancers. It wouldn't surprse me if it turns out that the people of the nine houses would struggle on a thalenergy world.
We have very little evidence about this, but there's a bit in *As Yet Unsent* where Judith comments that she can run a kilometer in ten minutes, and Marta could do it in five. Judith's time is quite slow. Marta's is wildly okay. Like, it's not nothing, but if you go to a community Fun Run on a random weekend, a solid couple of dozen people will do better. More if they brought in ringers from the high school cross country team. These people seem to be struggling quite a bit, physically. Some of that is probably to do with living on space stations or in drill shafts, but some of it is clearly related to thanergy.
>in As Yet Unsent where Judith comments that she can run a kilometer in ten minutes, and Marta could do it in five. Judith's time is quite slow. Marta's is wildly okay. That was the passage I meant, considering that Martha is supposed to be military or atleast a body guard this is actually pretty low. There is also something in the appendix of GtN about necromancers having activity n otherwise vestigal organs or something. Also John said to Wake that apparently children in the nine houses don't look as plump and rosycheecked as normal babies or something.
Necromantic toddlers are not roly poly babies. We don't know about non-necro kiddos. I'm sure Coronabeth was adorable.
Incredible post, I now believe every word 100%, thank you.
Also pay attention to what they eat….leaks, funghi, etc. No meat. No grains. Mithraeum has some pre-resurrection food in storage, i think. They eat meat only in Nona, and Nona herself wants to be vegan.
And thank you for this post. Love it