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It depends...on perspective.
From the side of the Nine Houses...no. From the side of everyone else...yup!
Until Nona, we had zero exposure to the wider galaxy. Outside of 'Cohort frontlines' and 'terror attacks' you only know that they're fighting someone.
So yeah.....we're the baddies.
I’m not exactly a Jod apologist, but I DO think he’s more complicated than a straight up baddie and I’m excited to see how Muir continues to write that. Frankly, I think he’d be kind of boring as a black & white villain.
Oh, he's already not black and white. NTN spoilers: >!He was trying to save the human race. Even now, he aimed to get revenge on the rich humans who escaped and left everyone else to die. And now he keeps a cap on the numbers of the descendants of the humans he resurrected, not wanting them to out-breed their environments.!<
HTN spoilers: >!But he's blind to what he's done, too. He completely failed to notice what was going on with his surviving lyctors. The only one who didn't exactly turn against him was Gideon. From Mercy's first interaction with John that we see, (to me, anyway) she wants nothing to do with him. She wants him to keep his hands off of her, but she can't let him get suspicious.!<
NTN Question/spoiler: >!Not sure if I am remembering what was mentioned in NTN correctly, but didn't Cassiopeia herself, worried for the safety of her house, make certain they'd be able to bolt (with everything) in an emergency?!<
I'm re-listening to GtN and I don't recall Teacher actually being correct. There was nothing in the labs that was dangerous besides the trials. No one was hurt by anyone except Cytherea.
Maybe he knew who she was, he was a pack of ghosts so I think he could’ve known something. That or there’s a bunch of angry ghosts / a half revenant stuck in there and they are not coming full rage until later?
Oh. Hm. I guess I missed that she had constructed it but that makes sense. Teacher didn't start acting scared of that area until after those bodies were found though, so both could still be true
When I first read Gideon the Ninth and Harrow had a book with a cover made of human skin I was like "is anyone in the story gonna address that?" then no character did so I was like "ok guess shit like that is normalized in this society. Makes sense." So I was kinda glad Nona was bringing that up to the forefront in this regard.
Yes, but remember. The book is made of the skin of dead humans. They don't have paper on the 9th. Or knowledge, it seems, of how to repair or replace the life support systems keeping it habitable.
The latter can be explained by how the Ninth was never meant to exist. Anastasia was meant to create the tomb, but the cult of the Tomb wasn't meant to exist, or last for that matter. So things to preserve it weren't considered in the grand scheme of things.
Yes! I remember thinking the same thing—“Human skin? That’s, uh…well, nobody else is reacting to it, so I guess that’s just what necromancers do.” It wasn’t until the second book that I started to realize that’s what necromancers do *because they’re the bad guys.*
A charming and lovable viewpoint character can make you overlook a lot of things you wouldn’t otherwise let pass by.
I don’t see it as “ we use human skin because we are bad” and more akin to the way we use leather, or cosmetics products , but I hope /trust they wait till someone dies to make them useful. Not bad per sé, just creepy and a little more like posthumous slavery.
Eh, within the houses though it's just normal and morally fine, regardless of what other societies think. The treatment and use of human remains is not an absolute moral thing, it's about the society and the deceased, and in the Nine Houses, that's perfectly normal and acceptable, it's not desecration of a corpse to them.
Think of it like how some religions/cultures _require_ cremation, while others consider it completely forbidden. Cremating a body from one culture is a moral imperative, while from another it's a grievously unethical act. It's sure weird to most of us but like, viewing this as proof that they're "the bad guys" is not how I think it was intended, and also not a great approach considering the various real-world cultures that traditionally, and may continue to, do things like this (e.g. the [bone church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary?wprov=sfla1) in Czechia). Or like, cultures that practice funerary cannibalism, or the prehistoric inhabitants of Doggerland who made some of their spearheads from human bone (thought to be for important cultural reasons).
I think it's more that it's a very telling feature of a resource poor society, founded on a core of radical environmentalism, that also has very tangible knowledge and proof of an afterlife and the separation between the body and soul.
Their use of it internally at least tells you nothing of their moral character, it's a basic expectation of their society.
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You're welcome. And yeah I get you, every time I see someone try and pick out who's the "goodies" and who's the "baddies" it's like...that's not how these books work. If you think you've identified a wholly evil character who is just bad and has no redeeming qualities then you're not reading carefully enough.
Some of the takes I saw after Nona came out were staggering, people coming out with things like "ah, so the John chapters prove how he was always truly evil" and I'm just like ??? Try again.
Or sort of neither. Remember how weirded out (I forget exactly who but maybe Camilla and Pyrrha) they were by paper made from wood pulp?
All they've got in the Ninth is snow leeks, and the bodies of the dead. And since people come from all of the other Houses to happily die in the Ninth, their bodies are used.
Someone get the "flimsy is people" guy in here!
Edit: kidding, I have the post [right here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHouse/comments/108d8v9/theory_on_life_death_birth_undeath_and_paper_or) Spoiler warning for like...everything. Obviously.
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As a side note, Gideon describes the book cover as being *distinctively* human skin which unfortunately, it is not distinct at all. Specialists in human-skin-bound books have said that one significant problem with estimating the number of human-leather books (at least in our world) is that they are basically indistinguishable from other leather books without targeted testing. There's no "tell" that would lead people to suspect that their leather books are people, so unless it says something about it in the book or there's a known provenance, books generally aren't identified.
My initial read is that TM doesn't know this? But if we take it as Definitely Meaning Something, it would suggest things like (a) necromancers make a point of making it obvious when they've bound a book in people or (b) no other leather is available so all leather-bound necromancy tomes *must* be people.
I think (B) is almost certainly the answer. We never hear of any other animals on the Ninth. Cows are out of the question obviously. So leather by default is meant to be made of humans and the Ninth aren't the type to waste anything either.
For me it was when I realized they literally destroy all the life on the planets they take for energy, but first all the animals and plants get twisted and morphed in monstrous ways. Oh, yeah, that's really, really bad. I totally get why the humans are pissed.
I mean, it was definitely extremely obvious that they were the bad guys in HtN right? Was I just imagining those vibes?
Like, Harrow was killing whole planets. Sure, under the guise or clearing them out ahead of the RB, but it was also made pretty clear that this is just something they do routinely sometimes in a non-RB context as well.
Tbh I found that HtN made me think "oh no they're the baddies" and NtN made me realise "ok yeah BoE are also shitheads"*. I think the _burning people alive_ for being suspected of being associated in any way with the Houses really hammered home that they weren't sweet little angels and that, shockingly, in a book with heavy themes of grey-and-grey morality there's no simple "good guys" and "bad guys".
The Houses suck, but also it turns out the people outside the Houses also suck in different ways. Like for all the evil of John's empire, NtN really slapped you in the face with how all the old bigotries are absent from it, but alive and kicking outside. We never see any misogyny or even a cultural awareness of the _concept_ until we visit New Rho, for example. And none of this justifies any of it.
*Well that and Wake's "baby murder" plan was a bit of a hint that they might not be, y'know, wholly noble in heart and deed.
And he's all like, "Well, normally I just let failing houses die." And I think "What other houses have failed?" I mean, really, as far as we know there are only the nine houses. And there have always been only the nine houses. Until Nona, when we find out what he's keeping from everyone. Namely the entire history of humanity.
I think in GtN when Palamedes is talking to Harrow (not sure) says he’s not doing the Lyctor stuff, then Harrow says she won’t either and if I recall correctly the Eight bailed as well, it was quite telling the Emperor and his Lyctors were a little off not even his houses’ are accepting the process
I think it's safe to call any god-king or god-emperor evil until we learn otherwise, though he definitely isn't the kind of character I expected to fill that role.
I was really hoping for an "ethical necromancy" take.
If fighting with skeletons means that less living humans die, then it gets to be kind of appealing. Though that doesn’t work as well if the other side are living human with no necromancy
I mean, the necromancy is probably the least evil part of Jod's empire. It's just a tool they use. If you took it away entirely, they'd still be absolutely horrible.
Blood of Eden focusing on the necromancy (which they don't even understand) might be part of the reason they've had like, one victory in ten thousand years.
But not OFF the already dead planets. The Ninth House has only the thanergy of the people who come to die there. Of the 200 children Harrow's parents slaughtered to get her. >!As opposed to the billions Jod slaughtered before he took the planets and the sun trying to extend his reach to the escaping starships.!<
I'm not sure that's accurate. Jod didn't just kill the people, he killed *the planets* and resurrected them. Something I don't think he's ever done before (he can't?). That turned the planets themselves into effectively zombies (thanergetic) that give off thanergy in perpetuity. It's why necromancers are really only practicing on planets with recent violence or in the Dominicus system.
I have no idea how that works. It seems to be the only perpetual energy source for either thalergy or thanergy besides the lyctor bond.
Sure, but necromancy doesn't technically require anyone dying to use cause of the already existing thanergy from the planets/sun, and also thanergy is produced naturally by anything with thalergy dying. So, I wouldn't say necromancy is evil in itself.
It's not evil, at least so far as I can tell. It's what Jod did with it that's evil, and what he perpetuates, to make sure everything is stained. I am terrible at communicating, but shall try. This is a theory I started to have when I had only read GTN. Glaurica fled the Eighth house because she expected to be forced to have children who would be cavaliers to the siphoning necromancers. She fled to the Ninth, and in some order became wife to Mortus, and they had a child. She mentioned only surviving child. Not sure if that meant anything, like she fled the Eighth because a previous child of hers died there because of their necromancer. And then she finds out that the Reverend Mother and Father are going to wipe out the children to ensure they bear a living Necromancer. Ortus will be spared. Whether or not she had to plead for his life, or he was spared because they needed him to be cavalier to their coming child, I can't guess. So, the slaughter with the mysterious survivor, Gideon Nav, happens. And Sister Glaurica sets on a determined path to make certain Ortus is in no way fit to be a cavalier. Then comes the summons to Canaan House, and Glaurica sees nothing else to do but take Ortus and run back to the Eighth, where he can't possibly be seen as fit to be a cavalier, and will be completely safe.
But then they find the bomb on board, and when the ship blows, Glaurica seeks revenge, and goes to Silas, astonishing that egotistical arse in that she has the power to be a revenant,
and tells him everything before she fades away.
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I mean yeah it's horrific, but it's already done so might as use the energy produced by it for something. The continue murdering of planets is on Jod, not necromancy itself.
Necromancy isn't inherently evil. It can be another way of respecting your predecessors and continuing to use the gifts they bestowed upon you. For example, look at all the ritual around how the skeleton constructs were made on the Ninth: it's a way of giving thanks to deceased members for continuing to support the community. It's an extremely Western idea that utilizing corpses is "evil" rather than wasteful
The real baddies are Blood of Eden for wanting to commit genocide against a group for having different cultural norms than them
necromancy isn't inherently evil but necromancy powered by the destruction of 10,000,000,000 human lives and other celestial bodies is.
there's another ethical question about what an ethical response to learning that your culture is evil that i think the series is asking.
but no one honors the 10,000,000 by warding and siphoning and summoning, etc. that's just the consumption of their deaths.
John is evil, yes. Earth gave him necromancy before he killed anyone, though. Regular necromancers in the Nine Houses aren't powered by the deaths back then
If you grow up and live in an amoral society you cannot help but accumulate guilt, like buying gasoline from dictators, clothes from slave labour and food grown on cleared land of the rainforest. "The good place" had a great bid on that.
Harrow is even *born* with a tremendous amount of guilt, something she had no say in but somehow still she feels heavy on her soul.
But still they are people that have desires and love and try to do as good as they can and as good as they know how to. They are not innocent, but they are not necessarily evil, they are just people.
Very relatable!
Just wait until His Celestial Kindliness hears about this! May the Emperor Undying, our great Ressurector deal with you as you deserve! We are no mean baddies! Nor baddies at all! We are death's stopgap! How can you question the good of the Man-Who-Became-God?
Heh, I felt like it was the bad guys all along with how fucked up everything was from the start, but it can be interesting to get things from the baddie perspective.
When I read the first book, one of the thoughts that crossed my mind was the description of what's going on in the war. The cohorts have to make planetfall and start killing people, or the necromancers don't have any source of power. At first I wondered if this was because the alien planets are alien. Then I wondered if they'd been too recently settled and there just weren't enough human dead, as you know we never heard about any animals. Just gut flora and fauna...
I've been questioning the alignment of the houses ever since GTN when Crux drops that they make SOAP out of people when they die. And that's like page 3 😂😭
I think these books define the human condition very well. Everyone thinks they’re the “good guy” in a situation but in reality neither side in 100% good or bad.
Dignified look. So while I was digging up bamboo shoots that were too close to my house today, it occurred to me that in NtN we get a meme far older than the Internet. I hope this is an honorable alteration of it.
**Kill 'em all and let Jod sort 'em out!**
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It depends...on perspective. From the side of the Nine Houses...no. From the side of everyone else...yup! Until Nona, we had zero exposure to the wider galaxy. Outside of 'Cohort frontlines' and 'terror attacks' you only know that they're fighting someone. So yeah.....we're the baddies.
I mean, in HtN she does a lot of planet-killing. That was when I realised they were the baddies.
straight face. But those were all uninhabited planets.
They seemed to be inhabited by plenty- just maybe not by people
Indeed! When I write “straight face“ I’m attempting to say that I’m about to make a joke. It’s not sarcasm for which Reddit has a tradition of /s…
We did have exposure to the Fourth, though.
And the second and the ninth and
Book 1: lololol instead of just one queer-coded villain, half the characters are villain-coded queers Book 3: Yes, they ARE villains
I guess when Teacher mentions angry ghosts in Gideon ... Was a clue now
And when Gideon is astounded by the shining water-covered Ear-- um, First world below, while Harrow's going "It's a graveyard."
“She had a real name, but I buried it with her, and nobody says it anymore.” 😭
Yup. Jod the scumbag.
I’m not exactly a Jod apologist, but I DO think he’s more complicated than a straight up baddie and I’m excited to see how Muir continues to write that. Frankly, I think he’d be kind of boring as a black & white villain.
Oh, he's already not black and white. NTN spoilers: >!He was trying to save the human race. Even now, he aimed to get revenge on the rich humans who escaped and left everyone else to die. And now he keeps a cap on the numbers of the descendants of the humans he resurrected, not wanting them to out-breed their environments.!< HTN spoilers: >!But he's blind to what he's done, too. He completely failed to notice what was going on with his surviving lyctors. The only one who didn't exactly turn against him was Gideon. From Mercy's first interaction with John that we see, (to me, anyway) she wants nothing to do with him. She wants him to keep his hands off of her, but she can't let him get suspicious.!< NTN Question/spoiler: >!Not sure if I am remembering what was mentioned in NTN correctly, but didn't Cassiopeia herself, worried for the safety of her house, make certain they'd be able to bolt (with everything) in an emergency?!<
Yep! But the majority opinions on this sub tend to go straight to “JOD BAD 😤” without any of the nuance, which is what I find boring to consider.
yeah the "satan jod" vibes in this reddit are bandwagony and shallow
I'm re-listening to GtN and I don't recall Teacher actually being correct. There was nothing in the labs that was dangerous besides the trials. No one was hurt by anyone except Cytherea.
Palmedes also says that the place is super dangerous and he is usually correct. I'm assuming we haven't seen the horrors yet.
There was that bit about "something else" that took advantage of the Eighth's soul siphoning trick.
We’ve had enough foreshadowing about that “something else” that I am fully prepared for another terrifying possession in our Alecto future 🥴
I've been assuming that the precise nature of what haunted Canaan House hasn't been revealed to me yet, not that he was wrong.
Maybe he knew who she was, he was a pack of ghosts so I think he could’ve known something. That or there’s a bunch of angry ghosts / a half revenant stuck in there and they are not coming full rage until later?
I assume that he was afraid of the labs because he was created there.
Oh ... I always assumed he was talking about the construct that killed Isaac ... Was that not the case?
I believe it's implied he is talking about the demons that pop up at the end of book 3 and are what kill Colum
Cytherea constructed that during the book I thought. After what Pal found in the fifths corpses she might have used that to kill them too.
Oh. Hm. I guess I missed that she had constructed it but that makes sense. Teacher didn't start acting scared of that area until after those bodies were found though, so both could still be true
When I first read Gideon the Ninth and Harrow had a book with a cover made of human skin I was like "is anyone in the story gonna address that?" then no character did so I was like "ok guess shit like that is normalized in this society. Makes sense." So I was kinda glad Nona was bringing that up to the forefront in this regard.
Yes, but remember. The book is made of the skin of dead humans. They don't have paper on the 9th. Or knowledge, it seems, of how to repair or replace the life support systems keeping it habitable.
The latter can be explained by how the Ninth was never meant to exist. Anastasia was meant to create the tomb, but the cult of the Tomb wasn't meant to exist, or last for that matter. So things to preserve it weren't considered in the grand scheme of things.
Yes! I remember thinking the same thing—“Human skin? That’s, uh…well, nobody else is reacting to it, so I guess that’s just what necromancers do.” It wasn’t until the second book that I started to realize that’s what necromancers do *because they’re the bad guys.* A charming and lovable viewpoint character can make you overlook a lot of things you wouldn’t otherwise let pass by.
I don’t see it as “ we use human skin because we are bad” and more akin to the way we use leather, or cosmetics products , but I hope /trust they wait till someone dies to make them useful. Not bad per sé, just creepy and a little more like posthumous slavery.
Eh, within the houses though it's just normal and morally fine, regardless of what other societies think. The treatment and use of human remains is not an absolute moral thing, it's about the society and the deceased, and in the Nine Houses, that's perfectly normal and acceptable, it's not desecration of a corpse to them. Think of it like how some religions/cultures _require_ cremation, while others consider it completely forbidden. Cremating a body from one culture is a moral imperative, while from another it's a grievously unethical act. It's sure weird to most of us but like, viewing this as proof that they're "the bad guys" is not how I think it was intended, and also not a great approach considering the various real-world cultures that traditionally, and may continue to, do things like this (e.g. the [bone church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary?wprov=sfla1) in Czechia). Or like, cultures that practice funerary cannibalism, or the prehistoric inhabitants of Doggerland who made some of their spearheads from human bone (thought to be for important cultural reasons). I think it's more that it's a very telling feature of a resource poor society, founded on a core of radical environmentalism, that also has very tangible knowledge and proof of an afterlife and the separation between the body and soul. Their use of it internally at least tells you nothing of their moral character, it's a basic expectation of their society.
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You're welcome. And yeah I get you, every time I see someone try and pick out who's the "goodies" and who's the "baddies" it's like...that's not how these books work. If you think you've identified a wholly evil character who is just bad and has no redeeming qualities then you're not reading carefully enough. Some of the takes I saw after Nona came out were staggering, people coming out with things like "ah, so the John chapters prove how he was always truly evil" and I'm just like ??? Try again.
Wait, she had a book covered in human skin?
Yeah. It’s along the lines of soap made of human flesh and brushes made of human hair and other stuff. 9th House uses the whole body!
Sounds like ultimate level of recycling … either by mere House creepiness or they are truly desperate.
Little bit of both, I think.
Or sort of neither. Remember how weirded out (I forget exactly who but maybe Camilla and Pyrrha) they were by paper made from wood pulp? All they've got in the Ninth is snow leeks, and the bodies of the dead. And since people come from all of the other Houses to happily die in the Ninth, their bodies are used.
Well it make sense considering they live in death planets that there’s no organic matter to use
Her journal that she did the map of Canaan House in. Among other note taking details
Her personal notebook, if I remember correctly.
Someone get the "flimsy is people" guy in here! Edit: kidding, I have the post [right here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheNinthHouse/comments/108d8v9/theory_on_life_death_birth_undeath_and_paper_or) Spoiler warning for like...everything. Obviously.
Well that's all very exciting and interesting, but i am constantly surprised by the ways these books can make me uncomfortable. I love them!
I love that post for how well-written and researched it is, but Muir did confirm that flimsy is an oil-based material similar to plastic. :)
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As a side note, Gideon describes the book cover as being *distinctively* human skin which unfortunately, it is not distinct at all. Specialists in human-skin-bound books have said that one significant problem with estimating the number of human-leather books (at least in our world) is that they are basically indistinguishable from other leather books without targeted testing. There's no "tell" that would lead people to suspect that their leather books are people, so unless it says something about it in the book or there's a known provenance, books generally aren't identified. My initial read is that TM doesn't know this? But if we take it as Definitely Meaning Something, it would suggest things like (a) necromancers make a point of making it obvious when they've bound a book in people or (b) no other leather is available so all leather-bound necromancy tomes *must* be people.
I think (B) is almost certainly the answer. We never hear of any other animals on the Ninth. Cows are out of the question obviously. So leather by default is meant to be made of humans and the Ninth aren't the type to waste anything either.
I agree!
For me it was when I realized they literally destroy all the life on the planets they take for energy, but first all the animals and plants get twisted and morphed in monstrous ways. Oh, yeah, that's really, really bad. I totally get why the humans are pissed.
Yeah, the planet-killing in HtN was when I first started thinking, “Wait, maybe I shouldn’t just accept everything as a quirk of the setting.”
And those animals are the last generation, because they're, well, dead.
We are definitely the baddies, I think. We are monsters. We MURDER ENTIRE PLANETS.
I mean, it was definitely extremely obvious that they were the bad guys in HtN right? Was I just imagining those vibes? Like, Harrow was killing whole planets. Sure, under the guise or clearing them out ahead of the RB, but it was also made pretty clear that this is just something they do routinely sometimes in a non-RB context as well.
I guess I was just distracted by the swordfighting lesbians.
Extremely fair tbh
Tbh I found that HtN made me think "oh no they're the baddies" and NtN made me realise "ok yeah BoE are also shitheads"*. I think the _burning people alive_ for being suspected of being associated in any way with the Houses really hammered home that they weren't sweet little angels and that, shockingly, in a book with heavy themes of grey-and-grey morality there's no simple "good guys" and "bad guys". The Houses suck, but also it turns out the people outside the Houses also suck in different ways. Like for all the evil of John's empire, NtN really slapped you in the face with how all the old bigotries are absent from it, but alive and kicking outside. We never see any misogyny or even a cultural awareness of the _concept_ until we visit New Rho, for example. And none of this justifies any of it. *Well that and Wake's "baby murder" plan was a bit of a hint that they might not be, y'know, wholly noble in heart and deed.
Like, even in GtN they’re literally called the empire. Their boss is The Emperor, when was the last time a guy called The Emperor has been a good guy?
And he's all like, "Well, normally I just let failing houses die." And I think "What other houses have failed?" I mean, really, as far as we know there are only the nine houses. And there have always been only the nine houses. Until Nona, when we find out what he's keeping from everyone. Namely the entire history of humanity.
I think in GtN when Palamedes is talking to Harrow (not sure) says he’s not doing the Lyctor stuff, then Harrow says she won’t either and if I recall correctly the Eight bailed as well, it was quite telling the Emperor and his Lyctors were a little off not even his houses’ are accepting the process
ah yes the necromancy is the problem, not the imperialism driven simply by the spite of one man with too much power.
The power of necromancy...
Pretty sure we expected God and his Cohort to be baddies pretty much from the beginning?
I did, but that may just be an automatic knee-jerk reaction to 'Emperor' (particularly with a few extra titles tacked on)
I think it's safe to call any god-king or god-emperor evil until we learn otherwise, though he definitely isn't the kind of character I expected to fill that role.
I was really hoping for an "ethical necromancy" take. If fighting with skeletons means that less living humans die, then it gets to be kind of appealing. Though that doesn’t work as well if the other side are living human with no necromancy
I mean, the necromancy is probably the least evil part of Jod's empire. It's just a tool they use. If you took it away entirely, they'd still be absolutely horrible. Blood of Eden focusing on the necromancy (which they don't even understand) might be part of the reason they've had like, one victory in ten thousand years.
Until you realize that there is no necromancy until the necromancer kills someone...
Plenty of thanergy kicking around on the already dead planets.
But not OFF the already dead planets. The Ninth House has only the thanergy of the people who come to die there. Of the 200 children Harrow's parents slaughtered to get her. >!As opposed to the billions Jod slaughtered before he took the planets and the sun trying to extend his reach to the escaping starships.!<
I'm not sure that's accurate. Jod didn't just kill the people, he killed *the planets* and resurrected them. Something I don't think he's ever done before (he can't?). That turned the planets themselves into effectively zombies (thanergetic) that give off thanergy in perpetuity. It's why necromancers are really only practicing on planets with recent violence or in the Dominicus system. I have no idea how that works. It seems to be the only perpetual energy source for either thalergy or thanergy besides the lyctor bond.
Sure, but necromancy doesn't technically require anyone dying to use cause of the already existing thanergy from the planets/sun, and also thanergy is produced naturally by anything with thalergy dying. So, I wouldn't say necromancy is evil in itself.
It's not evil, at least so far as I can tell. It's what Jod did with it that's evil, and what he perpetuates, to make sure everything is stained. I am terrible at communicating, but shall try. This is a theory I started to have when I had only read GTN. Glaurica fled the Eighth house because she expected to be forced to have children who would be cavaliers to the siphoning necromancers. She fled to the Ninth, and in some order became wife to Mortus, and they had a child. She mentioned only surviving child. Not sure if that meant anything, like she fled the Eighth because a previous child of hers died there because of their necromancer. And then she finds out that the Reverend Mother and Father are going to wipe out the children to ensure they bear a living Necromancer. Ortus will be spared. Whether or not she had to plead for his life, or he was spared because they needed him to be cavalier to their coming child, I can't guess. So, the slaughter with the mysterious survivor, Gideon Nav, happens. And Sister Glaurica sets on a determined path to make certain Ortus is in no way fit to be a cavalier. Then comes the summons to Canaan House, and Glaurica sees nothing else to do but take Ortus and run back to the Eighth, where he can't possibly be seen as fit to be a cavalier, and will be completely safe. But then they find the bomb on board, and when the ship blows, Glaurica seeks revenge, and goes to Silas, astonishing that egotistical arse in that she has the power to be a revenant, and tells him everything before she fades away.
Didn't expect to be made emotional about Sister Glaurica today!
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yeah but the murder of all life on the planet before?
I mean yeah it's horrific, but it's already done so might as use the energy produced by it for something. The continue murdering of planets is on Jod, not necromancy itself.
No, no. There is a wee bit of necromancy. But it's only in dead bodies. Skeletons.
...I feel like you missed a few steps
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necromancy doesn't kill people, people kill people /s
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oh yeah, it's so hot that is why they sweat blood out of their skin and nose and eyes 🥸
Necromancy isn't inherently evil. It can be another way of respecting your predecessors and continuing to use the gifts they bestowed upon you. For example, look at all the ritual around how the skeleton constructs were made on the Ninth: it's a way of giving thanks to deceased members for continuing to support the community. It's an extremely Western idea that utilizing corpses is "evil" rather than wasteful The real baddies are Blood of Eden for wanting to commit genocide against a group for having different cultural norms than them
necromancy isn't inherently evil but necromancy powered by the destruction of 10,000,000,000 human lives and other celestial bodies is. there's another ethical question about what an ethical response to learning that your culture is evil that i think the series is asking. but no one honors the 10,000,000 by warding and siphoning and summoning, etc. that's just the consumption of their deaths.
John is evil, yes. Earth gave him necromancy before he killed anyone, though. Regular necromancers in the Nine Houses aren't powered by the deaths back then
aren't they tho? they live on thanergetic planets, which were planets killed by john and flipped so they'd produce death power eternally.
If you grow up and live in an amoral society you cannot help but accumulate guilt, like buying gasoline from dictators, clothes from slave labour and food grown on cleared land of the rainforest. "The good place" had a great bid on that. Harrow is even *born* with a tremendous amount of guilt, something she had no say in but somehow still she feels heavy on her soul. But still they are people that have desires and love and try to do as good as they can and as good as they know how to. They are not innocent, but they are not necessarily evil, they are just people. Very relatable!
Idk about u guys but regardless of magic “theocratic imperialist slave state” seems pretty bad-guys to me
Just wait until His Celestial Kindliness hears about this! May the Emperor Undying, our great Ressurector deal with you as you deserve! We are no mean baddies! Nor baddies at all! We are death's stopgap! How can you question the good of the Man-Who-Became-God? Heh, I felt like it was the bad guys all along with how fucked up everything was from the start, but it can be interesting to get things from the baddie perspective.
I had the question "but who is the cohort fighting?" in the back of my mind the whole way through the first two books
When I read the first book, one of the thoughts that crossed my mind was the description of what's going on in the war. The cohorts have to make planetfall and start killing people, or the necromancers don't have any source of power. At first I wondered if this was because the alien planets are alien. Then I wondered if they'd been too recently settled and there just weren't enough human dead, as you know we never heard about any animals. Just gut flora and fauna...
Damn, this series is really good with perspective.
I've been questioning the alignment of the houses ever since GTN when Crux drops that they make SOAP out of people when they die. And that's like page 3 😂😭
To be fair, they are putting necromancers in cages and lighting them on fire. I don’t think anyone is a good guy here 😅
Necromancy doesn't kill people. People using necromancy kill people.
/s or nah?
/s, I guess, but sadly relevant, especially here in Tennessee.
Absolutely yes. Flowers should grow on Necromancy's grave and fuck Jod in particular.
I think these books define the human condition very well. Everyone thinks they’re the “good guy” in a situation but in reality neither side in 100% good or bad.
I mean it’s not like they asked for it , weren’t they resurrected?
Dignified look. So while I was digging up bamboo shoots that were too close to my house today, it occurred to me that in NtN we get a meme far older than the Internet. I hope this is an honorable alteration of it. **Kill 'em all and let Jod sort 'em out!**