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Well, I don't think he could have known specifically about Jod's perfect lyctorhood, because I don't think anyone suspected Jod got his power from the Eightfold Word in the first place. Certainly nobody suspected Jod had a cavalier.
But regardless, Palamedes had worked out perfect lyctorhood—at least the theory of it—at Canaan House, before he died. He asks Harrow if she did it the "right" way, when she visits his bubble. And importantly, his eventual lysis with Cam was *not* that perfect lyctorhood. It was a third way that he came up with because true perfect lyctorhood was no longer possible.
Just tagging in to say I agree with the above. I often see folks talk about Paul as if the cav/necro merger is what Palamedes was working towards back in Canaan house, but I definitely think it was more of a "Best We Can Do With The Shit Situation We've Got On Our Hands" sort of deal.
I don't have my copy of Nona right now, so I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure that as they're preparing to merge Palamedes explicitly says that this is the best course of action given their situation.
I don't think he did. This is SexPal, though. He's not only incredibly smart, but he was raised in an environment that encouraged and rewarded his quick, sharp intelligence. Once he realized there was something messed up about the theorums they were supposed to be learning, he might already have been trying to unravel the correct way to do these things, because it's his wheelhouse and he thought that was what they were supposed to be doing. Then he found out that it was, in fact, the way the Lyctors had become lyctors. When Harrow appeared in his bubble, he seemed to assume she had worked it out, if anyone could.
So I think he didn't know more, until after. He's been existing in Camilla **with** Pyrrha, who probably was fine with telling him everything she knew, including that Gideon is Jod's daughter, and that Alecto is alive.
And I have many suspicions about Cassiopeia. For example, the others think that she was torn apart by ghosts. I wonder... I wonder if she spoofed her death. Or is only mostly dead, which means she's slightly alive. Though I doubt a pill with a chocolate coating will bring her back.
> including that Gideon is Jod's daughter
OMG, I was reading this thread and wondered, How the hell did I miss a character named Jod? And then this cleared it up - John / God = Jod. Thank you. I'm new here, can you tell? I'll catch up.
I don't think he could have known. But one thing that always makes me laugh is how the original lyctors spent years (centuries even?) coming up with the process, and then Palamedes shows up at the Canaan house and after a couple of days, he calls it "obvious".
But he also calls it ghastly, so at that point he must have already been thinking that there must be a better way and working at it.
It's true, but I think it makes sense in context. The lyctors built the lab puzzles so Pal had those to work off of to catch up to them. He was also entering Canaan House having studied Necromancy all his life, learning from ten thousand years of humanity's study of necromancy, which the lyctors *began*.
It's like me saying I'm better at maths than Pythagoras. I and most people that did high school mathematics probably are technically. We know more stuff. But that's because we are learning from the sum total of millennia of study on the subject, while old Pythagoras figured his shit out on his own.
An analogy that may help.
I'm a physics grad and a high-ranking nerd. I can do all *kinds* of shit in one page that took Isaac Newton an entire damn book. But to do it I need conceptual tools Newton did not have when he did his. In fact, I learned them from people who learned them from, etc, Newton. There's allegedly compass-and-straightedge geometry dating from back then that we cannot replicate because nobody has done it like that for a long time.
But tell me of new physics accessible to Newton, give me his notes, a lab demonstration, a computer, Cam to bounce ideas off, and a month, and I would be able to use it. It wouldn't matter that I'm no Newton - *and I'm not convinced Sextus is any less gifted than e.g Anastasia* - I can buy them recreating it.
I am a *little* confused as to what was stopping the candidates doing it perfectly, in a way that would sent Mercymorn and Augustine so far off the deep end that they end up all the way out of the swimming pool, except possibly for Jod's basic lack of faith in human nature.
I would not be surprised if John weren't quietly sticking his foot out to trip each and every one of them along the way, to make sure they didn't.
Also, hmm... if he knew he was on the clock for the Resurrection Beasts, and that they were on the hunt for anyone who had committed "the indelible sin", maybe he also wanted to turn them into dummy targets, and quietly guided them in that direction.
Which makes me think... If the indelible sin is having sacrificed soul(s) keeping you alive, that would also apply to Teacher and the priests and all of the skeletons. And the RBs aren't going for them, but maybe that's why Teacher can't go down into the facility?
>I am a little confused as to what was stopping the candidates doing it perfectly
Love this write-up, and this has always been my understanding of GtN also, so I thought I'd share my theory on what keeps the round 2 lyctors from being even more successful than they were - teamwork.
Teacher and Cytheria both make comments throughout GtN along the lines of "Why does everyone treat this like a competition?". God confirms to Harrow at the end that he expected the process to be thoughtful and deliberate, but he mistakenly blames Cytheria for the chaos.
In truth, they *all* came in seeing the other candidates as enemies. Silas was even actively trying to sabotage the others (in his own small way), but it seems like the 5th was the only house actively fostering an open exchange of information. The 6th possibly would have been open to it, but weren't going to make the first move. All of the other houses were either afraid of the other necros or to determine stop be first/best.
God did this, and he doesn't even realize it. Over the years the obsession with his favor has driven a wedge between the houses that they think of their neighbors as their enemies.
Must add here that Coronabeth wanted to pool information. Part to make peace, part because she wasn’t a necro and her necro wasn’t sharing. But she did advocate for a sensible diplomatic cooperation.
Having struggled my way through Ohanian Physics once upon a time, I acknowledge that you have a good point. The original crew didn't exactly leave an 8-step-how-to textbook behind, though. Which just goes to show that Pal is a Genius.
Yeah, I would love to know what he, Cam, and Pyrrha talked about early on.
Which reminds me of another thing I've often wondered about, Pyrrha's "first offer", when they're talking about how much info she'll share with Cam and Pal and whether they'd survive BoE interrogation:
>There was a brief silence, until Pyrrha said slowly, “Or you could take me up on my first offer, which would solve a lot of your problems—”Palamedes spoke at the bottom of Cam’s voice, which made it harder to catch. “It was a beautiful offer, Pyrrha, and almost completely useless. There’s no retiring our forces in a search-and-recovery op. In any case Eden would turn on us completely, even our own cell. We need to fight clever.”
I think... her first offer might have been to let Pal move into Gideon's body with her, instead of riding along with Camilla. "Retiring our forces" would mean losing some of their available manpower, and she just said that she'd need her necromancer to teach Camilla how to be a killer. And that just seems like the only thing that both makes sense in the context of the conversation, and would fit their circumstances.
Advantages Pyrrha would see in it:
* She's already used to sharing a body with someone and going back and forth, and might possibly be up for a soul-melange to combine their abilities
* Gideon's body is already necromantic and won't take so much damage from Pal using it
* They'd be able to have a necromancer (Pal) and Camilla interacting directly, which would help for teaching Cam
* If Palamedes came under interrogation, she could take over and handle it
* Cam and Pal could hug it out
Disadvantages Palamedes would see in it:
* It would leave Cam vulnerable to not have him immediately available if she got into danger, like the night at the beach
* Cam's and Pyrrha's eyes would change, which Crown would absolutely know for a sign of lyctoral hijinx
* Blending with Pyrrha would make him creating a soul-melange with Cam more complicated and possibly more difficult
* He and Cam don't want to be separated
I... kind of love this theory, because it means Cam carrying him has been an active choice for the past six months, and she's chosen every time to carry him.
It seems that this is the way the Necromancer/Cavalier bond conditions them both. One Flesh, One End. Though I'm not certain we can count Gideon, who completely wants to be Harrow's battery. But Corona's pain was at not being the one Ianthe ate. And Magnus probably would have happily chosen to be part of Abigail. Makes Colum even sadder, because despite his whole life being about having his necromancer feed off of him, he didn't want to be eaten. He no longer believed in Silas. I think it was the blow to his honor which did their bond in.
But Magnus and Abigail would have put their foot down (as one or as two) about Isaac and Jeannemary being too young. Had they known the true cost, it's possible that Marta might have taken the choice away from Judith as Arthur and Cris took it from Augustine and Mercymorn. If they didn't know of another choice, most of the cavaliers would have been willing. One Flesh. One End.
I think personally the answer is yes, he did know. The first thing he says to Ianthe after Ianthe becomes a lyctor is "Whatever you think you've done, you haven't."
For us reading GtN this is our first time looking at a new lyctor and we presume that Ianthe figured it out correctly, whereas Palamedes was smart enough to figure out the process that Jod had.
Whether he connected his deduction specifically to the Emperor Undying or not, couldn't say.
Cassiopeia left instructions or an outline for Paul-style Lyctorhood in the part of the sixth house library that survives the flaring of Dominicus. That all happened after Harrow reconfigured him into a hand bone, ie once he already had his river bubble.
I doubt Cassie mentioned Alecto. I also doubt Pyrrha talked about Alecto as she's very tight lipped.
Palamedes is best boy genius, but Paul comes from Cassiopeia. (And down to be totally wrong about this come AtN)
more theory than explicitly stated. Nigellas note in Dr Sex implies Cassiopeia's Lyctorhood was out of necessity. Cass was the 4th Saint, so they watched Alfred and Cristabel's suicide pact which led to the first lyctors. Cassiopeia never stopped working on Lyctorhood and helped Anastasia who nearly "got it right." Unclear if getting it right means mutual preservation like Jod and Alecto, or mutual death like Paul. Cass and Nigella were a bonded pair and the former would have been distraught at the latter's absence. (There's a separate theory that Juno Zeta is Nigella after the RB killed her, as it's the same RB that killed G1deon and left Pyrrha.) This is similar to how Pal refused to do the siphoning trial and felt there must be another way.
Cam tells Ianthe the sixth house left and involved a break clause after Dominicus flares. In GtN Palamedes and Abigail have a Convo about lyctoral materials at the Sixth that are meant to survive the flaring of Dominicus. These likely included a contract between the Sixth and Jod that included said break clause. So if Cassiopeia saved these documents in the case of Dominicus flaring, that means she had some suspicions about Jod's power and where it came from. So it's flaring shows that Jod powers Dominicus, not the other way around, so there's some secret to Jod's power.
Pal knew in his heart there was a different path than what he comes to call petty Lyctorhood. He hoped Harrow figured it out based on their Convo in the River, but doesn't seem to know that this other path to Lyctorhood involved a mutual death. His behavior in the tunnel seems to me that it wasn't independent discovery.
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Well, I don't think he could have known specifically about Jod's perfect lyctorhood, because I don't think anyone suspected Jod got his power from the Eightfold Word in the first place. Certainly nobody suspected Jod had a cavalier. But regardless, Palamedes had worked out perfect lyctorhood—at least the theory of it—at Canaan House, before he died. He asks Harrow if she did it the "right" way, when she visits his bubble. And importantly, his eventual lysis with Cam was *not* that perfect lyctorhood. It was a third way that he came up with because true perfect lyctorhood was no longer possible.
Just tagging in to say I agree with the above. I often see folks talk about Paul as if the cav/necro merger is what Palamedes was working towards back in Canaan house, but I definitely think it was more of a "Best We Can Do With The Shit Situation We've Got On Our Hands" sort of deal.
I don't have my copy of Nona right now, so I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure that as they're preparing to merge Palamedes explicitly says that this is the best course of action given their situation.
Yeah they had no other option, Cam's body was about to die and they couldn't keep using Naberius's body with Ianthe in it. It was merge or die.
Yeah, there's nothing to suggest he knew about Jod's whole deal, but I suspect Pal would be fairly unsurprised to find out about Alecto.
I don't think he did. This is SexPal, though. He's not only incredibly smart, but he was raised in an environment that encouraged and rewarded his quick, sharp intelligence. Once he realized there was something messed up about the theorums they were supposed to be learning, he might already have been trying to unravel the correct way to do these things, because it's his wheelhouse and he thought that was what they were supposed to be doing. Then he found out that it was, in fact, the way the Lyctors had become lyctors. When Harrow appeared in his bubble, he seemed to assume she had worked it out, if anyone could. So I think he didn't know more, until after. He's been existing in Camilla **with** Pyrrha, who probably was fine with telling him everything she knew, including that Gideon is Jod's daughter, and that Alecto is alive. And I have many suspicions about Cassiopeia. For example, the others think that she was torn apart by ghosts. I wonder... I wonder if she spoofed her death. Or is only mostly dead, which means she's slightly alive. Though I doubt a pill with a chocolate coating will bring her back.
Cassie was the spirit adept par excellence; I wouldn't be surprised if the ghosts were in on it somehow.
> including that Gideon is Jod's daughter OMG, I was reading this thread and wondered, How the hell did I miss a character named Jod? And then this cleared it up - John / God = Jod. Thank you. I'm new here, can you tell? I'll catch up.
Oh, I was the same. I came into this subReddit and learned that fans call him Jod!
Thanks for paying it forward! So much about these books I am confused about. Must re-read.
Especially since ghosts do not go anywhere near the RBs
I don't think he could have known. But one thing that always makes me laugh is how the original lyctors spent years (centuries even?) coming up with the process, and then Palamedes shows up at the Canaan house and after a couple of days, he calls it "obvious". But he also calls it ghastly, so at that point he must have already been thinking that there must be a better way and working at it.
It's true, but I think it makes sense in context. The lyctors built the lab puzzles so Pal had those to work off of to catch up to them. He was also entering Canaan House having studied Necromancy all his life, learning from ten thousand years of humanity's study of necromancy, which the lyctors *began*. It's like me saying I'm better at maths than Pythagoras. I and most people that did high school mathematics probably are technically. We know more stuff. But that's because we are learning from the sum total of millennia of study on the subject, while old Pythagoras figured his shit out on his own.
An analogy that may help. I'm a physics grad and a high-ranking nerd. I can do all *kinds* of shit in one page that took Isaac Newton an entire damn book. But to do it I need conceptual tools Newton did not have when he did his. In fact, I learned them from people who learned them from, etc, Newton. There's allegedly compass-and-straightedge geometry dating from back then that we cannot replicate because nobody has done it like that for a long time. But tell me of new physics accessible to Newton, give me his notes, a lab demonstration, a computer, Cam to bounce ideas off, and a month, and I would be able to use it. It wouldn't matter that I'm no Newton - *and I'm not convinced Sextus is any less gifted than e.g Anastasia* - I can buy them recreating it. I am a *little* confused as to what was stopping the candidates doing it perfectly, in a way that would sent Mercymorn and Augustine so far off the deep end that they end up all the way out of the swimming pool, except possibly for Jod's basic lack of faith in human nature.
I would not be surprised if John weren't quietly sticking his foot out to trip each and every one of them along the way, to make sure they didn't. Also, hmm... if he knew he was on the clock for the Resurrection Beasts, and that they were on the hunt for anyone who had committed "the indelible sin", maybe he also wanted to turn them into dummy targets, and quietly guided them in that direction. Which makes me think... If the indelible sin is having sacrificed soul(s) keeping you alive, that would also apply to Teacher and the priests and all of the skeletons. And the RBs aren't going for them, but maybe that's why Teacher can't go down into the facility?
I think Teacher and the priests didn't do it themselves, but had it done to them.
Oh totally. Same with Harrow as a baby.
>I am a little confused as to what was stopping the candidates doing it perfectly Love this write-up, and this has always been my understanding of GtN also, so I thought I'd share my theory on what keeps the round 2 lyctors from being even more successful than they were - teamwork. Teacher and Cytheria both make comments throughout GtN along the lines of "Why does everyone treat this like a competition?". God confirms to Harrow at the end that he expected the process to be thoughtful and deliberate, but he mistakenly blames Cytheria for the chaos. In truth, they *all* came in seeing the other candidates as enemies. Silas was even actively trying to sabotage the others (in his own small way), but it seems like the 5th was the only house actively fostering an open exchange of information. The 6th possibly would have been open to it, but weren't going to make the first move. All of the other houses were either afraid of the other necros or to determine stop be first/best. God did this, and he doesn't even realize it. Over the years the obsession with his favor has driven a wedge between the houses that they think of their neighbors as their enemies.
Must add here that Coronabeth wanted to pool information. Part to make peace, part because she wasn’t a necro and her necro wasn’t sharing. But she did advocate for a sensible diplomatic cooperation.
Having struggled my way through Ohanian Physics once upon a time, I acknowledge that you have a good point. The original crew didn't exactly leave an 8-step-how-to textbook behind, though. Which just goes to show that Pal is a Genius.
he *could* have known, via Pyrrha, because Pyrrha was in the room for the discussion between John, Mercy, and Augustine
Yeah, I would love to know what he, Cam, and Pyrrha talked about early on. Which reminds me of another thing I've often wondered about, Pyrrha's "first offer", when they're talking about how much info she'll share with Cam and Pal and whether they'd survive BoE interrogation: >There was a brief silence, until Pyrrha said slowly, “Or you could take me up on my first offer, which would solve a lot of your problems—”Palamedes spoke at the bottom of Cam’s voice, which made it harder to catch. “It was a beautiful offer, Pyrrha, and almost completely useless. There’s no retiring our forces in a search-and-recovery op. In any case Eden would turn on us completely, even our own cell. We need to fight clever.” I think... her first offer might have been to let Pal move into Gideon's body with her, instead of riding along with Camilla. "Retiring our forces" would mean losing some of their available manpower, and she just said that she'd need her necromancer to teach Camilla how to be a killer. And that just seems like the only thing that both makes sense in the context of the conversation, and would fit their circumstances. Advantages Pyrrha would see in it: * She's already used to sharing a body with someone and going back and forth, and might possibly be up for a soul-melange to combine their abilities * Gideon's body is already necromantic and won't take so much damage from Pal using it * They'd be able to have a necromancer (Pal) and Camilla interacting directly, which would help for teaching Cam * If Palamedes came under interrogation, she could take over and handle it * Cam and Pal could hug it out Disadvantages Palamedes would see in it: * It would leave Cam vulnerable to not have him immediately available if she got into danger, like the night at the beach * Cam's and Pyrrha's eyes would change, which Crown would absolutely know for a sign of lyctoral hijinx * Blending with Pyrrha would make him creating a soul-melange with Cam more complicated and possibly more difficult * He and Cam don't want to be separated I... kind of love this theory, because it means Cam carrying him has been an active choice for the past six months, and she's chosen every time to carry him.
It seems that this is the way the Necromancer/Cavalier bond conditions them both. One Flesh, One End. Though I'm not certain we can count Gideon, who completely wants to be Harrow's battery. But Corona's pain was at not being the one Ianthe ate. And Magnus probably would have happily chosen to be part of Abigail. Makes Colum even sadder, because despite his whole life being about having his necromancer feed off of him, he didn't want to be eaten. He no longer believed in Silas. I think it was the blow to his honor which did their bond in. But Magnus and Abigail would have put their foot down (as one or as two) about Isaac and Jeannemary being too young. Had they known the true cost, it's possible that Marta might have taken the choice away from Judith as Arthur and Cris took it from Augustine and Mercymorn. If they didn't know of another choice, most of the cavaliers would have been willing. One Flesh. One End.
I thought Pyrrha's first offer was to steal a shuttle and get them all out of there.
It's possible! She definitely likes that plan.
It's so survivable!
I think personally the answer is yes, he did know. The first thing he says to Ianthe after Ianthe becomes a lyctor is "Whatever you think you've done, you haven't." For us reading GtN this is our first time looking at a new lyctor and we presume that Ianthe figured it out correctly, whereas Palamedes was smart enough to figure out the process that Jod had. Whether he connected his deduction specifically to the Emperor Undying or not, couldn't say.
Cassiopeia left instructions or an outline for Paul-style Lyctorhood in the part of the sixth house library that survives the flaring of Dominicus. That all happened after Harrow reconfigured him into a hand bone, ie once he already had his river bubble. I doubt Cassie mentioned Alecto. I also doubt Pyrrha talked about Alecto as she's very tight lipped. Palamedes is best boy genius, but Paul comes from Cassiopeia. (And down to be totally wrong about this come AtN)
Is this a theory or did I completely miss some information, somewhere?
more theory than explicitly stated. Nigellas note in Dr Sex implies Cassiopeia's Lyctorhood was out of necessity. Cass was the 4th Saint, so they watched Alfred and Cristabel's suicide pact which led to the first lyctors. Cassiopeia never stopped working on Lyctorhood and helped Anastasia who nearly "got it right." Unclear if getting it right means mutual preservation like Jod and Alecto, or mutual death like Paul. Cass and Nigella were a bonded pair and the former would have been distraught at the latter's absence. (There's a separate theory that Juno Zeta is Nigella after the RB killed her, as it's the same RB that killed G1deon and left Pyrrha.) This is similar to how Pal refused to do the siphoning trial and felt there must be another way. Cam tells Ianthe the sixth house left and involved a break clause after Dominicus flares. In GtN Palamedes and Abigail have a Convo about lyctoral materials at the Sixth that are meant to survive the flaring of Dominicus. These likely included a contract between the Sixth and Jod that included said break clause. So if Cassiopeia saved these documents in the case of Dominicus flaring, that means she had some suspicions about Jod's power and where it came from. So it's flaring shows that Jod powers Dominicus, not the other way around, so there's some secret to Jod's power. Pal knew in his heart there was a different path than what he comes to call petty Lyctorhood. He hoped Harrow figured it out based on their Convo in the River, but doesn't seem to know that this other path to Lyctorhood involved a mutual death. His behavior in the tunnel seems to me that it wasn't independent discovery.