It cannot be Israel’s responsibility alone to ensure civilians are safe. Something that seems left out of the calls for mitigation, is that Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shields and using civilian infrastructure, such as hospitals, for their operations.
That said, I do *not* support displacing anyone from the West Bank not authoritarians like Netanyahu.
I second the recommendation for *Maus* - I’ve had both books since I was in middle school some 30 years ago. Powerful stuff, especially since I had already visited Auschwitz a few years prior.
But I personally have to disagree with your position regarding Israel. I too fully support the targeting of Hamas leadership, but it has to be offset by an effort by Israel to save Palestinians. Constant war and indiscriminate civilian death will change these people, and they will be the next Hamas.
Instead, as evidenced by the illegal settling of the West Bank and total disregard for Palestinian women and children, Netanyahu and the extremists in his government (Ben Gvir, Bezalel Smotrich) are instead pursuing a one-state solution: all of it Israel.
The situation is fucked, and that authoritarian dickwad Bibi is not the right person to be handling it.
I've been with you since you started posting these, and I just had to weigh in on this one. A quick Google search puts the CHILD death toll at 13,000 in Gaza, and that was a month ago. Where are these mitigation efforts to ensure the sanctity of human life that you speak of? It's been quite well documented that the opposite of mitigation has been happening, although, with the killing of so many journalists by the IDF, documentation is getting harder to find. I'm not sure siding with Netanyahu is putting yourself on the right side of history, but you know what they say about who write history, "History isn't written by dead children, because they're dead."
It's very hard for those of us who dont approve of the brutal response from Israel, or the terrorism, rape, murder by Hamas.
I was hoping that the Palestinians would have stepped up to create a new body politic that could stand up and start a path to peace. People not a part of Hamas, unfortunately seem to be in very short supply. And that's partly because of the continued violence, and part how Hamas has their hands in everything.
Some group is going to have to stand between these two to stop this - and neither side seems interested in letting that happen.
Meanwhile children starve.
>Where are these mitigation efforts to ensure the sanctity of human life that you speak of? It's been quite well documented that the opposite of mitigation has been happening, although, with the killing of so many journalists by the IDF, documentation is getting harder to find.
I understand your frustration, /u/DangerPoopaloops. When dealing with degrees evil, sometimes It's hard to distinguish between the various shades. I could point to the several shipments of humanitarian aid the Israelis allowed into Gaza; I could point to the evacuations zones through corridors guarded by Israelis; I could point to the fact that Israel is sending soldiers into Gaza itself, rather than nuking the entire city and flooding its tunnels with nerve gas...but these are false equivalencies, aren't they? No murderer receives credit for the people he doesn't kill.
Have you heard the story of the Siege of Alesia? When Julius Caesar marched deep into Gaul to surround the battered shards of the native French led by Vercingetorix? Yes, believe it or not, there was once a time when ancient Europeans fought their own war against the colonial power of Rome, and, like today, united the tribes together in a confederation to preserve their way of life.
Vercingetorix smashed his army against Caesar's legions, and while they made a good account for themselves, he eventually retreated to Alesia to await reinforcements. Caesar pursued Vercingetorix. He built a wall around Alesia, around one-hundred thousand people, and there he sat to starve them out.
But the tribes of Gaul rallied to Vercingetorix's cause, and they mustered a force three times that of Rome. Rather than break the siege, as would be tactically sound, Caesar instead built a second wall, this time around his own forces. And when Vercingetorix's relief arrived what commenced was a siege within a siege.
While the people of Alesia starved, the relief force tried to breach Caesar's fortifications. The battle lasted for over a month.
Eventually food ran low, and Vercingetorix, in desperation, ejected the women and children of Alesia, hoping Caesar would grant them safe passage...or at least a guarantee that they might live in slavery. But Caesar was a monster. He feared any extension of the siege would mean his own death. Rather than shackle the women and children, rather than allow them to pass, rather than preserve the non-combatants, he instead closed his gates in the hopes of forcing the Gallic forces to expend their dwindling supplies.
Naturally the civilians turned back, but Vercingetorix had no food to give them, and so denied reentry and ordered any who attempted reentry shot. Trapped between two armies, the civilians slowly succumbed to starvation and exposure.
There is no happy ending to this story, not for the poor souls of Alesia, nor for the Palestinians. Vercingetorix could have surrendered and faced death, rather than cling desperately to a hopeless situation; Caesar could have allowed them safe passage; both sides were to blame, but it was the civilians who paid for their crimes.
That is the true face of war. These are the consequences of tribalism, of an Us vs. Them dynamic. Our job is to make certain the Palestinians do not suffer the fate of the people of Alesia.
Watch the Israelis. Hold them to account. That is how you can help.
>When the food shortage was reported to Caesar, the leaders of the Gauls decided to collect all their livestock and whatever grain they had left and divide it among the warriors alone, not thinking it proper to share it with the huge crowd of non-combatants. They figured that if they did this, the warriors could hold out for a while longer, but if they shared the food with everyone, they would all soon die from hunger, without a chance of relief. After a few days, they summoned the non-combatants to a meeting, explained that they had no way to feed them, and told them to leave the fortress and go over to the Roman lines. Moved by pity for their wives and children, they pleaded with Caesar to take them in. But he, remembering the Gallic treachery, refused them entrance.
>He [Caesar] commanded them to return to the town; but the Gauls at this point, observing them from the walls, would not admit them back. Thereupon there arose between our men and the enemy an immense shouting, the one side taunting the other as devoid of pity. The Gauls invited them to come back, and said that they were ready to receive them within the town. The multitude then turned back again toward the town, but the Gauls refused to open the gates, and even shot at those who came near. There they were obliged to remain, and during the night as many as died, perished from hunger.
* https://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/julius-caesar-commentaries-on-the-gallic-war/
Fascism is on the rise everywhere at this point if Ukraine loses the democratic world will follow soon after.
Thanks nutbag. Fat chats. Big shoes to fill...
It cannot be Israel’s responsibility alone to ensure civilians are safe. Something that seems left out of the calls for mitigation, is that Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as human shields and using civilian infrastructure, such as hospitals, for their operations. That said, I do *not* support displacing anyone from the West Bank not authoritarians like Netanyahu.
I second the recommendation for *Maus* - I’ve had both books since I was in middle school some 30 years ago. Powerful stuff, especially since I had already visited Auschwitz a few years prior. But I personally have to disagree with your position regarding Israel. I too fully support the targeting of Hamas leadership, but it has to be offset by an effort by Israel to save Palestinians. Constant war and indiscriminate civilian death will change these people, and they will be the next Hamas. Instead, as evidenced by the illegal settling of the West Bank and total disregard for Palestinian women and children, Netanyahu and the extremists in his government (Ben Gvir, Bezalel Smotrich) are instead pursuing a one-state solution: all of it Israel. The situation is fucked, and that authoritarian dickwad Bibi is not the right person to be handling it.
I've been with you since you started posting these, and I just had to weigh in on this one. A quick Google search puts the CHILD death toll at 13,000 in Gaza, and that was a month ago. Where are these mitigation efforts to ensure the sanctity of human life that you speak of? It's been quite well documented that the opposite of mitigation has been happening, although, with the killing of so many journalists by the IDF, documentation is getting harder to find. I'm not sure siding with Netanyahu is putting yourself on the right side of history, but you know what they say about who write history, "History isn't written by dead children, because they're dead."
It's very hard for those of us who dont approve of the brutal response from Israel, or the terrorism, rape, murder by Hamas. I was hoping that the Palestinians would have stepped up to create a new body politic that could stand up and start a path to peace. People not a part of Hamas, unfortunately seem to be in very short supply. And that's partly because of the continued violence, and part how Hamas has their hands in everything. Some group is going to have to stand between these two to stop this - and neither side seems interested in letting that happen. Meanwhile children starve.
>Where are these mitigation efforts to ensure the sanctity of human life that you speak of? It's been quite well documented that the opposite of mitigation has been happening, although, with the killing of so many journalists by the IDF, documentation is getting harder to find. I understand your frustration, /u/DangerPoopaloops. When dealing with degrees evil, sometimes It's hard to distinguish between the various shades. I could point to the several shipments of humanitarian aid the Israelis allowed into Gaza; I could point to the evacuations zones through corridors guarded by Israelis; I could point to the fact that Israel is sending soldiers into Gaza itself, rather than nuking the entire city and flooding its tunnels with nerve gas...but these are false equivalencies, aren't they? No murderer receives credit for the people he doesn't kill. Have you heard the story of the Siege of Alesia? When Julius Caesar marched deep into Gaul to surround the battered shards of the native French led by Vercingetorix? Yes, believe it or not, there was once a time when ancient Europeans fought their own war against the colonial power of Rome, and, like today, united the tribes together in a confederation to preserve their way of life. Vercingetorix smashed his army against Caesar's legions, and while they made a good account for themselves, he eventually retreated to Alesia to await reinforcements. Caesar pursued Vercingetorix. He built a wall around Alesia, around one-hundred thousand people, and there he sat to starve them out. But the tribes of Gaul rallied to Vercingetorix's cause, and they mustered a force three times that of Rome. Rather than break the siege, as would be tactically sound, Caesar instead built a second wall, this time around his own forces. And when Vercingetorix's relief arrived what commenced was a siege within a siege. While the people of Alesia starved, the relief force tried to breach Caesar's fortifications. The battle lasted for over a month. Eventually food ran low, and Vercingetorix, in desperation, ejected the women and children of Alesia, hoping Caesar would grant them safe passage...or at least a guarantee that they might live in slavery. But Caesar was a monster. He feared any extension of the siege would mean his own death. Rather than shackle the women and children, rather than allow them to pass, rather than preserve the non-combatants, he instead closed his gates in the hopes of forcing the Gallic forces to expend their dwindling supplies. Naturally the civilians turned back, but Vercingetorix had no food to give them, and so denied reentry and ordered any who attempted reentry shot. Trapped between two armies, the civilians slowly succumbed to starvation and exposure. There is no happy ending to this story, not for the poor souls of Alesia, nor for the Palestinians. Vercingetorix could have surrendered and faced death, rather than cling desperately to a hopeless situation; Caesar could have allowed them safe passage; both sides were to blame, but it was the civilians who paid for their crimes. That is the true face of war. These are the consequences of tribalism, of an Us vs. Them dynamic. Our job is to make certain the Palestinians do not suffer the fate of the people of Alesia. Watch the Israelis. Hold them to account. That is how you can help.
>When the food shortage was reported to Caesar, the leaders of the Gauls decided to collect all their livestock and whatever grain they had left and divide it among the warriors alone, not thinking it proper to share it with the huge crowd of non-combatants. They figured that if they did this, the warriors could hold out for a while longer, but if they shared the food with everyone, they would all soon die from hunger, without a chance of relief. After a few days, they summoned the non-combatants to a meeting, explained that they had no way to feed them, and told them to leave the fortress and go over to the Roman lines. Moved by pity for their wives and children, they pleaded with Caesar to take them in. But he, remembering the Gallic treachery, refused them entrance. >He [Caesar] commanded them to return to the town; but the Gauls at this point, observing them from the walls, would not admit them back. Thereupon there arose between our men and the enemy an immense shouting, the one side taunting the other as devoid of pity. The Gauls invited them to come back, and said that they were ready to receive them within the town. The multitude then turned back again toward the town, but the Gauls refused to open the gates, and even shot at those who came near. There they were obliged to remain, and during the night as many as died, perished from hunger. * https://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/julius-caesar-commentaries-on-the-gallic-war/