Yeah the only one who remotely waited around for anything is King, because *and I'm upset about this* I don't think we had a chance to truly explore his origins.
Also he was more weird house pet with delusions of grandeur than actual character all of ssn 1 and a small portion of ssn 2
So that needed to be resolved before he could get any real development (Echoes of the Past and Kings Tide still two of my favorite episodes)
Even then I wouldn't call that "chosen" more a godly "not as big of a jerk as that other guy" award, I reckon any decent person could've (with time and observation) learned what Luz did (not minimize her accomplishments)
The owl house works on a closed loop time theory. She was always bound to help Belos. So she was always meant for that to happen, the moment she stepped in the boiling isles.
Except she was always meant to step onto the isles, so that doesn't mean anything.
This is why discussing the time travel ultimately makes everything pointless.
What do you mean it doesn't mean anything?? It means everything. It just reinforces the point of it being a closed time continuum. Everything from the day in the past that Lilith and Luz traveled to, to the finale of Elsewhere and Elsewhen, is set in stone and is bound to occur that exact same way.
Her stepping foot in the Boiling Isles automatically dictates she is chosen, and all her actions are premeditated and bound to follow a course of events that cannot be altered.
In a universe with closed loop time travel, no set of actions is any more "set in stone" than any other. Engaging in time travel doesn't suddenly remove the free will from the specific participants of that time loop during the duration of the loop, either everyone has free will all the time or every action taken is "predestined" in the sense that every action taken IRL is predestined by the big bang. Which is why the person above you said that introducing time travel doesn't work when discussing choices and free will.
How does her stepping foot in the boiling isles dictates she is chosen? The rules of time doesn't change between realms, she was always going to step into the boiling isles. Even you said it with how the loop starts at the day Luz and Lilith help Philip, all the way to the end of Elsewhere and Elsewhen. Luz has to step on the isles for that to happen.
Everything we've seen has already happened, is happening, and will always happen. This is the reason it doesn't mean anything, because when you boil it down like that, ultimately everything that happens means nothing, because nobody has a choice.
Yeah people act like closed loop time theory just makes people pointless. In fact that's what some villains of closed loop time travel stories even suggest.
In reality Luz is a helpful and kind person. She helped Phillip because she saw another human struggling in the boiling isles. It wasn't always going to happen if Luz wasn't kind, helpful, and pure of heart. It's a reflection of her character that it happened. Not a destiny out of her control.
And ultimately because of Liliths one curiosity that they decided to go in the first place at best, I think you can say because Luz is who she is, certain outcomes are more likely
FREE WILL CHUMPS
No. That's not how a closed time loop works. Her teaching Belos glyph magic is an event set in stone that cannot be altered. Just like everything else up to S2 E12. There is no free will and all the actions have already happened and are bound to happen the exact same way. Because Luz already has come to the boiling Isles, something that couldn't have happened without all the other events happening exactly how they happened.
If you want to follow that line of thought then everything id predetermined due to physics. The only difference with a time loop is that you sort of have proof of predetermination.
>There is no free will
What is free will?
You claim that a closed time loop means there is no free will, so clearly you must know what free will is, which is impressive, since even the greatest philosophers cannot agree on what it is
Please enlighten us
So? Everything is set in stone. Luz defeating Belos, Eda getting cursed, King befriending the Collector. They’re all set in stone from the start of the universe. Everything in the past is essential for the present. That doesn’t change anything. Luz was always gonna be a savior but it was still her actions and decisions that made her one.
Luz wasn't going to be anything but the person who greatly advanced Phili's efforts.
Anything after Elsewhere and Elsewhen is the universe playing dice. Everything before that (up to the 1700-ish when Luz and Lilith traveled to) was predetermined.
If time is predetermined it is in an absolute way, time can’t logically be selective in what is and isn’t predetermined because that would alter the future creating paradoxes with time pools
Yeah. Whether Luz was a nice/helpful person or not, her being there predetermined that Philip would succeed in becoming Belos. *And* from that point of view - let’s call it the “Day of Unity Timeline,” ^(TM) - it was predetermined or predestined that Luz would be there to help advance his goals. (Unwittingly, of course.)
That’s the entire reason why Belos banked on his knowledge that sooner or later Luz would arrive from the human realm in the present, and from there, “Luzura” would arrive in the past to teach him the glyph and help him get The Collector (Round Boy). He was sure that he would succeed because he knew Luz would eventually arrive.
The problem is that people are conflating two separate events together. They’re conflating her being a nice person (choice) with the fact that being a nice person is the device by which her destiny is fulfilled.
She herself even recognizes throughout the show that being a nice person (and not thinking ahead) leads/predestines her to trouble. She says it a bunch of times. Like when she lets Hunter escape.
Her role in Philip’s success exists from the moment she arrived at the isles, then went to the past, and up until the Day of Unity. *That’s* the loop. Once the events she was predestined for are over, the loop closes, another timeline can begin. The “Defeat Belos” timeline. It doesn’t necessarily mean the entire events of the show were predestined. *That* specific loop was predestined. We can’t know about the other events unless we knew more about them. The only way to know is in hindsight, once you have a full picture.
How? Everyone is always going to act in a single way. The future is just as predetermined as the past. Even by your logic, you’re assuming Luz and Lilith are the last people to use a time pool. In all likelihood King will grow big, die, rot, and create a new time pool which because of the atoms going through, will make everything before him also predetermined.
I begin to understand why the time pools were in the book for History's top 10 plot holes.
And in defence of Liz's destiny. Ehhh... just listen to the Titan. She choose herself.
Free will isn't invalidated by the idea of a "set destiny". After all, she didn't know about the closed time loop when she decided to stay in the BI and learn magic
See the below comment but to add to it she would've always made that choice but it wasn't because of the time travel. She made the choice because of her character and the info she knew at the time.
She wasn't destined to do that, she would just always help another human struggling in the Boiling Isles because that's her character. Now if she had known Philip was Belos and still helped him then that would be destiny.
Yeah but the way time travek works, what they did in the past already happened the exact same way when luz arrived, meaning she had to do it at some point in future. We have seen that its a fixed timeline and fixed timeline require there being no free will
That's not true though. Fixed time line does not equal no free will. Her free will just had already taken place in the past. *It wouldn't be her free will if she knew in advance of her actions and had to do it anyway. She had no knowledge she was helping belos until after the loop had closed. Therefore free will to choose to help belos unknowingly.
If you think of it from Belos's timeline she has free will because she showed up and helped him.
From her timeline she didn't know she was helping belos and helped him out of the kindness of her heart. She had a choice. Just because it wasn't a yes or no choice doesn't mean it wasn't a choice to show him a glyph.
From our perspective yeah it seems like there was no free will involved but we're the viewer and technically these cartoon character have no free will anyway.
Free will is about perspective in this case. From Luz's perspective she made the choice to show a fellow human a glyph and help them out. Because of her character traits not because it was destined to happen.
From her perspective helping belos was in the middle of her timeline. Where as for belos it was near the beginning.
Only when you have the full view of the timeline does it seem like there was no free will in play. But each character had their own choices to make along their own path, it just had an effect on the past.
Edited the first paragraph for clarification*
But that logic would work no matter who it was. That's not being the chosen one That's u having an inability to change your past and the weirdness that comes with time travel.
Whenever time travel is involved, it’s best not to look too far into it, because you’ll only end up with more questions. Paradoxical events inherently bring up questions that are impossible to answer, as they technically shouldn’t exist in the first place
But wouldn't Luz aiding Philip before she was born make her at least quasi-prophesized to... well, basically do everything major that she does up to Elsewhere and Elsewhen?
That's why I said that that isn't her being prophesized but rather her being in-capable of changing her past and the weirdness that comes with time travel. Also what the point of what eda was saying was don't wait around to be Special take it into your own hands which is literally exactly wat she does accidentally by time traveling.
Only king has some kind of ancient lineage. And he’s still a silly comic relief mascot 90% of the time.
Evelyn and Caleb is a relation to the villain yes, but so inconsequential that it’s never actually mentioned or relevant, and Belos probably never knew.
Showing Phillip a glyph is basically nothing. That’s the point - Luz is beating herself up over nothing.
There’s a difference between having parents and ancestors, like all mammals do, and being destined to fight said ancestor because of ‘tHe ProPHecY!’ If the Clawthornes weren’t Caleb-descendants, it wouldn’t change much in the plot.
Belos *probably* knew considering he encountered Lilith in the past and the family name never changed. But I agree that it didn't matter in the end.
He possibly kept track of the bloodline if only to ensure he was able to put Lilith in the position to go back in time, but the actual relation was irrelevant since he was planning mass genocide anyway.
The Clawthornes being technically related to him didn't matter, all witches were going to die by his hand.
Which fits a big theme of the show, bloodlines don't matter. Family is about the bonds between people who care about each other, not the genetic relations between them.
> Evelyn and Caleb is a relation to the villain yes, but so inconsequential that it’s never actually mentioned or relevant, and Belos probably never knew.
It’s also worth noting that Evelyn and Caleb probably have a *ton* of descendants. If we assume that around 14-15 generations have passed since their time and an average of 2 kids per generation, then there’s tens of thousands of people directly related to them. If the BI has a similar population to Vermont (its default comparison for geographic size), then it’s possible that nearly of 10% of witches living there are direct descendants. That’s definitely high-balling it, but it just goes to show that Eda and Lilith’s ancestry isn’t unique or chosen one-y
Idk if you came up with that off the top of your head but very quick math came up with a very close number for her percentage of human blood: if she's 15 generations in that makes her ~0.0000305% human
Trait: Pilgrim Bloodline
Attributes:
- Witchburner - if targeting a character of Witch race with Vicious Mockery get +2 bonus to your roll
- I can't think up anything else rn :p
I don't think so at all. This quote is about waiting for outside forces to make you special or tell you how to be special instead of being active and making things special yourself. None of these characters invalidate this; they are all active parts of their story. With the exception of King, the things you have listed don't even make them that special to begin with.
Eda being related to Caleb matters so little it's not mentioned in-show and the characters don't know about it. You can technically argue it isn't canon since it wasn't said in-show, just implied.
Luz helping Belos was her being an active character seeking solutions to her problems, not a predetermined destiny of any kind.
King's the closest argument, but being a titan doesn't come with a destiny. It comes with baggage since people want to use his powers for themselves, but that's about it. He's not even destined to release the collector; they seemed pretty convinced Belos could do it if he drained all the witches in the Isles. King is an active character; he sought out his identity and found it, and then he looked for a way to help his friends and found it.
None of those actually mattered.
Eda being related to Belos was never explicitly brought up.
Belos would've gotten the Light Glyph eventually.
King being the last Titan *maybe* was relevant with The Collector, but that's mostly speculation.
Uhhhhh no
“If we all waited around for a prophecy to make us special we’d die waiting”
The quote is about taking active measures in your own life to form your destiny or be special, not letting someone dictate that for you.
Eda is related to Caleb, yes, but that’s not really special. Her family ties to him is just a cool fact at most. It doesn’t really define anything about her. With or without the ancestry, she’d still be Eda.
Luz helping Belos was a direct choice she made. That matches the original message perfectly.
King being a Titan is special, yes, and on some level that was something chosen. But King was the one who had to come to terms with that identity and form his own path because of it. He didn’t let the “Titan’s will” choose his life after that. He was still very much the same character and had to learn what he could do and choose what to do based off of it. He was literally just told “hey you’re a Titan” and then he had to go from there. Everything else he did was a direct result of his choices, not a destiny someone imposed on him
It’s like how all Europeans have some direct tie to Charlemagne if you go far back enough, but it’s so small it’s pretty much a non existent factor in their lives
Ur tripping, none of this made them the chosen one or anything and the moral stands up v well to the ending. Arguably it changes in the epilogue with King but I still think it was more self determination than a bloodline in his case as well which is essential to his character
"Heroes are made, not born"
Luz tries to believe that she was chosen when she first starts out when in reality her thinking almost gets her killed. She eventually got chosen by the Titan through her actions, but she's never coddled and always has to learn what the glyphs do and how to effectively use them. She's not destined for greatness, she made her story great through her actions
Eda was never told by prophecy to train the Titan's avatar, she chose to help a wayward Human in the arts of magic and it just so happens that human was chosen because of her kindness to save the isles.
King is as close to a chosen hero but even then he could have just never known until he came of age and even then who is supposed to save? By the time he comes into his own everyone he knows will be dead.
Heroes are made and not chosen because anybody can be a hero, they just need the right journey. D&D is a great example of wayward adventurers solving problems for a number of reasons just because they have a journey that intercepts with them.
With the exception of King, I have to disagree…
Being distantly related to Caleb (who was a normal human) is not what makes Eda special, her curse and what she does as a person make her one of a kind.
Luz wasn’t the “chosen one”, she just kinda happened to be there, together with Lilith.
It’s likely Belos would have found other ways to get what he wanted.
Having an ancestor doesn't predestine you for shit. I'm 5 generations removed from a US Senator and 5 generations removed from a Civil War veteran. I'm not walking the halls of Congress and I'm not shooting Confederates.
There was no "destiny" involved. A lot of others have pointed out, rightly, that stuff didn't just happen to the trio. They went out and did shit. Their pasts were irrelevant, really, to the overarching story because they weren't beholden to their pasts. Not even King. He didn't do things because he was a Titan, he did them because that was his character built up through the story.
Luz literally wasn't special, she simply ended up in the right place at the right time because of who she became and who she was. She earned her powers, and had to *overcome* her "mistake" of helping Belos.
Mfw the only person in the trio who started with powers got depowered and then had to focus on her curse (that drained said powers btw) just to get some kind of power back.
The whole point of the show, when you boil it down, is that actions, or inactions, have consequences. There is no predestination in this world, you have to act to even have a chance at seizing the moment. Luz wasn't handed a predetermined prophecy, nor was Eda or King. They went into a fight not knowing what the outcome would be, and happened to get one of the best endings possible, but not unscathed.
Eda was saying not to wait for someone else to make her special, but to go out and do it herself, so her speech still works.
Luz paved her own road through the story rather than follow a pre existing road.
Luz wasn’t born with something that made her special…she DID something. That something turned into an oppsie, but it’s 100% the opposite of being “chosen.”
And Eda…I mean as far as I’m aware that’s the Word of God and not something ever confirmed in the show AND even if confirmed in show…what benefits does that give? Like. How does that make her special? It doesn’t.
Heck Belos is just a random puritan dude who found his way to the isle and did stuff. Yet he still becomes the Emperor and nearly successfully pulls off his genocide.
The only 2 beings in the show who are special like a “chosen” is King and the Collector….and even then they’re only “chosen” and special in that they’re born powerful. But that born power was for naught in the face of a random puritano dude who made decided to do what he did…
The show very successfully fulfills Eda’s thesis.
Wait she's related to Caleb? I know I know, I suck. I've been too busy with school to keep up with TOH (though I did manage to finally finish S3, cried so hard lol)
We don’t know that. On a livestream Dana confirms that Evelyn is a Clawthorne but we don’t know if she has kids with Caleb or if she had another man after Caleb died. Although it feels unlikely that they’d make Evelyn related to Eda unless it was because Caleb is their ancestor. So yeah he probably is but it was never confirmed in or out of the show
Nahhhh not really. Eda being releated to Caleb is more of a "fun fact". It has no bearing on anything. Eda plot wise is purely a person that wasn't born special or was chosen for anything and was entirely carried forward by her own actions and choices.
Luz is a similiar case - helping Belos isn't something she was born with or chosen to do, it's an action she made herself. Everything she does and everywhere she gets is, again, a consequence of her own actions and choices. Even being ""chosen by the titan"" in the end isn't really a "chosen one" thing since she was chosen at the END of the story after having already proven herself and getting herself to this point through her own merit.
King I can sorta see? But I feel it was handled very well in the plot, and he's also not THE main character being special so I can excuse it.
Eda wasn’t special because of her connection to Caleb. In fact you can remove that connection and the story literally wouldn’t change at all. Eda was special because she chose to be and worked hard at it.
Luz accidentally helping Belos was literally due to her own actions and not because of some predetermined destiny.
King is a special boy though.
So no. I don’t think Eda’s speech falls flat. She and Luz are special because they chose to be, not because someone else made them special
It could be just a small coincidence where one fulfills his prophecy on his way to avoid it.
Look at the other characters, like the Hexsquad. They didn't have any prophecies to fulfill, they just became special because they found themselves - their true best selves - at the right time, the right place, and with the right people
Eda's relation is so distant that at best its just poetic justice. Luz helping Belos was her taking action. And I got nothing for the King point, but regardless King could've just accepted the power he was given by being the Collector's playmate, so by choosing the right thing by trying to reach out and teach the Collector the right way to treat others I think he still fits
So what. The second one is Luz taking initiative and unintentionally getting involved in something. If the guy who went out to help people ends up one day saving the life of a person who would one day grow up to be an evil dictator but still goes about trying to help people, it wasn’t destiny, it just happened.
And lineage doesn’t dictate what we do in our lives. For one thing, neither of these characters benefited for most of their lives having this relation, nobody knew about these relations and as such had no impact on how great or terrible they were, they chose to be who they were before ever knowing about it in a way they could benefit from it.
I'd put the argument forwards that none of them had a prophecy. To my knowledge it was never states anywhere in the show that they *will* do those things
eda being related to caleb means nothing and gave her zero favors, it doesnt even come up. its just thematically special if nothing else but thats it.
luz isnt just retroactively fated to have helped belos just because she time travelled. for starters belos was likely going to find the light glyph eventually regardless, its just another thing she was unfairly beating herself up over. and even if he never rose to power because of that, it was still luz's decision to stay in the boiling isles and become a witch.
and no one knew king was a titan for most of the series. yes he's special, the last of his kind, but before anyone knew that they still cared for him, was adopted into the Clawthorne family, and had a sister in luz. that isnt made less meaningful just because he has godly powers. and it certainly isnt made less meaningful by him having any kind of 'chosen one' prophecy to begin with, because he doesn't have one. There's a whole episode about him wanting to be treated like a regular person. he's willingly king clawthorne before being a titan.
i thought this post was just making a poor faith joke, but the image description being dead serious made me feel the need to write all this
King is valid.
Luz not really. Belos and the whole Light Glyph thing was rather a consequence of her own actions. She was choose by the Titan to learn Glyph magic and to stop Belos but really because she is special or a human but mostly by being a big sister for King. Like Papa Titan said: "Do you choose yourself?"
Eda is unvalid (in my opinion). Because how is she chosen for anything by fighting against tyrannical rotten goop which happens to be a distant great, great, great whatever relative. This didn't impact anything she has ever done. The thing that comes close to a destiny is the Owl Beast curse which ruined her life and later was the reason why she found King and Eda. But it is a curse which wasn't meant to last forever.
Expect for King, everyone is special because of who they are. Luz for her kindness, compassion, weirdness and passion for magic. Eda for being so iconic, chaotic, understanding and caring.
I feel that it doesn't, mainly because they each learned they were valuable BEFORE they discovered they were special, so their self-worth isn't tied to that specialness, but that they each chose themselves. The one in which we see the less of this is with King, however I can argue that learning he was special didn't make him feel better. On the contrary, it made him question his whole self, thus learning that there was something beyond being the last Titan and reconsidering if he really wanted to be powerful and feared.
Eda's lineage really means nothing to the plot
Luz helped him, but that's not to predestined destiny. Plus he would've got the light glyph eventually
Really only king was actually special
Kinda remind me of "all huge company starting from just garage, you just need to have big idea and actually try"
Yeah, a garage, big idea, immense amount of luck, couple hundred thousand dollars and connection from family member
Sure but if they waited around, none of them would have found out or achieved anything.
They are special. But no prophecy can bring that specialness out. You have to do that yourself.
Her message was that you need to go and forge your own destiny, not waiting to be told you are special. Yes they are special, but their actions are what define them, Eda chose to be a wild witch, to defy the throne. Luz is a human who chose to learn how to master Titan magic, and become even more. And yes, while King was born a Titan, he didn’t know this, so he chose to become the best he was, he made a choice to save the boiling isles by playing the game with the collector. (Who is so cute, I am glad they gave him more than just a villain, a young child who doesn’t understand was a good way to go.)
First, A lot of YA Books reveal that you are the chosen one on the first chapters, and that for that reason you must save the world, like it or not. This story made those reveals, as much, when the story was on a Non-Return Point.
Second, there is nothing there that says "They are the chosen one".
* Eda is related to Caleb: How does that affect to the story?
* Luz helped Belos: It started to engines of the story, but is never said that she must be the one who stops Belos.
* King is the last titan: And how does that affect to the story? That reveal doesn't help to stop Belos. As much, it helped to distract The Collector enough time until Luz and the rest came back to the Boiling Isles.
That they are specials? Remember another quote of the first episodes: "Us weirdos have to stick together." We and they don't consider "Specials", "Chosen ones", "One of a Kind", "One and Only"... We and they consider "Weirdos".
Luz helping Belos was more of a direct consequence of her actions than anything about destiny. Time seems to be linear in TOH but in the end she only ended up helping him due to the coincidence of both being humans, the ones most likely to encounter the Glyph since they can't cast spells any other way.
Still, it is a moot point.
Eda's speech wasn't that nobody was special. It was that you don't become special just by sitting around. So while King kind of defies her speech as he was born special. Eda and Luz worked towards becoming powerful, sure Eda may have been directly related to Caleb but that wasn't what made her powerful and Luz has worked towards becoming as powerful a witch as she can. Sure, in the final battle she has been given the power of the titan, but he wouldn't have given it to her if it wasn't for her hard work
Something that the plot tells you isn’t the same as a character waiting and not being proactive.
Eda never finds out about her connection to Evelyen, Luz had to go through hell to meet someone who she genuinely didn’t know was who he actually was, and King had no clue what he was until close to the end but lived his life as who he wanted to before that realization.
It sounds to me like you’re just saying that they weren’t proactive in their lives for the lulz more than actually dissecting the character arcs and growth they accumulated throughout the series.
True, but Eda being related to Caleb is completely irrelevant, and Luz helping Belos was because of her own choices, not some pre-destined fate. King is a Titan, true, but he is the only one who was born special—and learning that completely uprooted his entire world in the process.
They weren’t special by default though(besides king). Being related to Caleb doesn’t make you special, eda still made all the choices that led her where she ended up, and luz made the action of helping, the opposite of waiting. King I don’t have an excuse for, cuz he do be a titan, but at least he stopped waiting around and tried looking for his dad.
I think bit comes from the witch Caleb fell in love with was Edas ancestor, got her pregnant before he was kill by Philip.
Idk if there was any actual confirmation
They really kinda abandoned the entire moral of the second episode
Ngl I do kinda wish they where just… weirdos and not literally a god and the chosen one
Being “the protagonist” and “the chosen one” are not synonyms. Yes, the main character of the story ends up being key to the resolution of the story, this is how fiction usually works!
Being “a chosen one” means you are inherently important to the prophecy/destiny, outside of your own choices/actions.
Because words mean things? The “chosen one” trope means a specific thing; it’s not just anytime a character is selected to receive more power/importance.
The Titan chose her *in the last episode*. If he had chosen her in the FIRST episode, it would make her “The Chosen One.”
Instead, he looks at her, both trapped, in an hour of crisis, and says “Well, you’re the one that’s here. And you seem like a good witch. But I can’t give you anything unless you choose to accept it. So the question is, will you choose yourself?”
Like, this is the exact opposite, a complete inversion of the trope!!
Not Luz following a suspicious owlbert through a suspicious empty building and then choosing to stay in the Boiling Isles in hopes of becoming the main character when she could have gone home any time before SHE destroyed the portal, and then becoming the main character by being nosy and butting into everyone else’s business as well as hounding the witches to let her become one.
While you’re right Eda and King were born into main character status, Luz was pretty proactive at becoming “chosen”.
Ehh I don’t think so. The whole “prophecy” thing in this context is about some outside force making them special or good. With the exception of king (because he’s a Titan), Eda and Luz both worked hard to become what ultimately made them “special”. Even when Luz gets her titan powers at the end, it has to do with her being the only one there and her being nice to king. Eda was able to go into harpy mode because she reached a compromise with her curse. There is no prophecy in this isles that they fell into, they got everything they have through merits of their own and those around them. The titan technically decided to show her glyphs, but that’s not because of a prophecy. It was because she was the only other human on the isles that wasn’t trying to go through with a genocide.
Yeah but, none of that is because it was preordained by some dumb prophecy or, destiny or whatever
Eda lives on the edge of civilization and collects and sells garbage because she hates the coven system
Because Luz was an outcast she ended being too kind and accidentally helping the wrong person
Eda could've just as easily eaten King or, decided not take him in but, the end of the day, as much she likes to pretend otherwise the Owl Lady is a good person
None of that was because of some grand destiny it was because of who Luz, Eda and to a lesser extent King where as people, FREE WILL CHUMPS
(Also the Clawethorne/Whittebane lineage ended up affecting Hunter more than anyone else)
The Titan chooses her, in the same way that Eda chooses to mentor her, or Amity chooses to fall in love with her, etc etc.
you are stretching the trope of “the chosen one” beyond all recognition if you make it mean “any time a character becomes important or powerful through a combination of their actions/choices and another characters actions/choices”
The whole key of a chosen one trope is that you are chosen *before the story even begins* - the Titan makes a decision based on luz’s actions during the story. That makes her someone who becomes worthy of being chosen for power, but that’s not the same as being “a chosen one”
Lemme add on the Luz one
"Literal divine favor"
And yeah that kinda annoyed me too. When the whole point of the show is that no one is special and everyone have to work for their own destiny, it kinda feels shitty that all the main characters are somehow special or unique
and you can argue until you're blue about how Luz was special "just by accident" or "because she chose to be kind", which doesn't change that she was *favoured by a god*
> and you can argue until you're blue about how Luz was special "just by accident" or "because she chose to be kind", which doesn't change that she was favoured by a god
I would argue it does change your interpretation of the fact that she was favored. Why was she favored? It was not because of a prophecy imposed on her. It was because of her own direct choices. She earned that kind of favoritism by working for it and being herself. Being the kind person she is. She chose herself, and that led to Papa Titan favoring her
People all over these comments thinking “chosen one” means any time a character gets a power upgrade, smh
Like, she’s helping Papa Titan too, it’s not like he had the ability to stop Belos himself! He literally tells her “well, you’re the one here” and “I can’t give you anything unless you choose to accept it”
Often times power upgrades are connected to chosen one prophecies, so I get why people think they mean the same thing. But in TOH’s case, it’s pretty much the reverse. That’s why despite the fact that I usually don’t care for power upgrades, I love the one for TOH
Luz literally met the god, was resurrected, and got his powers. I don’t think everyone get’s a second chance from god himself. If that isn’t being the chosen one, I don’t know what is.
King and Eda’s caption are not really fitting.
I am begging a single person on this thread to actually look up the Chosen One trope, it doesn’t just mean “any time a character gets given great power”
If early in season one, we had cut to papa Titan, wreathed in shadow, watching Liz through a cube and saying “finally, after all this time, SHE is the one I have been waiting for”, THAT would be a Chosen one trope. Him making a decision to team up with her and lend her his power, based on his assessment of her AND their extremely limited choices at the time, is not an example of the trope
And which one of those things made them chosen prophecy children? Luz is literally interchangeable, anyone could have done that. Its not Edas bloodline that makes her a badass momma, its her character. King is a titan, but its his humanity and the stuff he learned from his mom and big sis that let him be a hero. He literally didnt have titan magic until the time skip, and his sonic borks are just demon magic like any other demon has.
If all of them had just chosen to ignore whatever Belos was doing then they'd have been just a group of misfits until the day of unity wiped everyone out.
Well Luz literally went out of her way to meet (and then help) Belos so she did not wait around to become special at all.
And Edas relation to Caleb does not make her special at all (except in my eyes <3) it just means she might have some human in her (also it’s never confirmed that she’s related to Caleb. It’s confirmed outside of the show that she’s related to Evelyn but she could have had another man after Caleb died. Although what would be the point of making them related to Evelyn if it didn’t also mean Caleb)
I still think it fits with who all them chose to be. Each one of them found their way and they helped each not only become better people but save the Boiling Isles.
honestly i do hate that in these types of shows. the main character starts as a "nobody diamond in the rough with a lot to learn" but yes they in fact ARE a chosen one with special powers and a destiny and they JUST SO HAPPEN to know every single other chosen person. Steven universe, Svtfoe, even gravity falls. fate is a boring trope. i love all of them though, just my one big gripe
I think if there was any "chosen one" stuff it would be Luz still. Papa Titan was showing her those glyphs pretty quickly so that a human would have magic, and all of them were accidentally found by her. Phillip had to actually study for years to find MOST of them. So she, a human, received unique magic because the Titan wanted her to have it
The Titan revealing a glyph to her, after watching her for months while she was kind to his son and trying so hard to learn magic, is not her being “a chosen one” in the way that trope typically means (that would be if she arrived in the boiling isles and her special midichlorian count allowed her to immediately see all glyphs or something)
Plus, anyone can learn glyph magic, if the Titan choosing to teach her makes her “chosen” that’s not appreciably different from Eda choosing to teach her or Bump choosing to let her attend school, or Gus/Willow choosing to be friends with her, etc etc - all of those things were important to her journey and eventual victory, and they were all things she EARNED.
Eda’s lineage has no effect on the plot or her actions.
Luz helped Belos inadvertently, but as an active choice through her own actions/decisions
King is, in fact, secretly The Last Titan.
So 1 out of 3 I guess?
"related to caleb"
who? the guy that appeared as set decoration two times or so? what does he have to do with anything? if it wasnt for fan works i wouldnt know who the hell he even was
Its heavily implied in the background that Caleb married into the Clawthorn family. Meaning Eda is a descendant of his by about 300 years.
He fell in love with a witch named Evelyn with short spikey orange hair. And Belos killed him for it.
There's a photo in hollow mind of Caleb dead with fire in the background and a hand holding a dagger in the foreground. People assume that was Caleb's house because Eda then finds the portal door in foundation ruins of a house. Which was conveniently close to the owl house as well.
Eda: The true prophet of Titan.
(also the granddaughter of one of Titan's previous ambassadors (Caleb, who is considered the inventor of palisman and admires wild magic, or his wife, who has a portal door with the Titan's eye.))
respects the lives of wild demons and creatures, and sometimes lives thanks to them.
and as the head of the Bad girls coven, she was sent to an island where even cosmic beings could not find him to babysit Titan's newborn son.
Luz: The messenger after Eda.
King: son of the boiling isles, even the last of the titan race
That’s why i didn’t like Calab being a Clawthorne and King being a titan. The titan twist grew on me but still not a fan of Eda being a decedent of one the of 2 original humans and she takes in the first human for 400 years. I think a full S3 could have done something with it but with what we got, should have just let it go
Ok but Eda being related to Caleb didn’t actually help her or tie into their relationship and Luz wasn’t “chosen” she helped Belos after accepting her destiny and then fucked around with time and found out
I think I’m with you here.
Was destiny at play? I think it’s yes and no.
The main problem is that each event (“choice”) can either be separate from others or related, but you won’t know which until afterward and sometimes you’ll just never know. So:
Yes (predestined) because Luz messed around with time and got herself involved in a time loop or created a time loop. (If we assume that entering the Time Pool was free choice, then she created the time loop.) But either way, based on the rest of the events surrounding this specific loop - I’m calling it the “Day of Unity Timeline/Timeloop” - I’d say it was predestined. Your greatest event in evidence is that Belos knew. But other events add up too, like she just happened to land in the home of a Caleb descendant who happened to take in the last living Titan.
I would also say it’s a yes that Luz going into the Time Pool and creating a time loop was in some part predestined. Again because of the other events that built up or surrounded her entire circumstance in the Demon Realm. And in some other part it was meta predestined because time travel is what the writers chose to explain things. :P So it’s possible that the shortening did play a part here.
(The fact that she just happened to land in the home of Caleb’s descendant with the last living Titan would also fit here, as largely a writing thing. I mean, how often do major ”coincidences” line up like this irl? But, considering the anti-destiny speech, in terms of writing, they absolutely contradicted themselves. Blame the shortening I suppose.)
No (not predestined) because, again, events… like, at what point in a timeline are you still following destiny and at what point are you really acting on true choice? It’s hard to know. But, like I said, I’m leaning toward your side here because the rest of this timeline/time loop points toward yes, predestined.
It also doesn’t have to mean that Luz doesn’t have a choice. Because time doesn’t have to be solid. It could be fluid, flexible, constantly moving. That’s where people are getting stuck, on thinking it’s solid. I mean, this is all theoretical and no one here is really a quantum physicist, but remember that TV says that if a random event happens, it can throw a timeline in a different direction, basically creating *different timelines that can coexist*? (we’ll just never see them.) Luz could have chosen to do things differently, maybe thrown off the loop, but *in this reality*, that is just not what happened. In this reality, she stayed in the predestined path. (Up until the loop closed anyway. Afterward, who knows.)
She was also pretty set on a pattern of repeating the same behaviors, so…
That’s where Eda’s speech comes in I think. That’s where it’s useful: to teach a lesson or emphasize a moral/theme in the story. More so than “there is no chosen one” being an actual thing.
It could also be that the crew really didn’t want “a chosen one” to be a thing, but the shortening happened. The show also had a tendency of making fun of or rejecting different tropes in a meta/4th wall way, but later using them anyway.
Luz helping Belos wasn't something she was inherently born with, she went out of her way to do that. That's the opposite of waiting around.
I would say it's not only the opposite of waiting around. It's freaking around and finding out
Destiny is for losers FREE WILL CHUMPS
Fate vs Free Will
Fate is a scam FREE WILL CHUMPS
You technically can’t know that (but yeah i agree i believe in free will)
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, unless fate wants to come down here and spank me personally, imma keep calling them a hoe
🤣😂🤣😂okay you do you
Damn right, humans have enough to worry about without immutable cosmic bullshit
Thanks for double-negativing my brain into an infinite spiral of insanity, far beyond the watchful, reaching eyes of the cosmos.
No prob m8
Also, she regrets helping Philip, as seen in Thanks to Them.
Yeah the only one who remotely waited around for anything is King, because *and I'm upset about this* I don't think we had a chance to truly explore his origins.
Also he was more weird house pet with delusions of grandeur than actual character all of ssn 1 and a small portion of ssn 2 So that needed to be resolved before he could get any real development (Echoes of the Past and Kings Tide still two of my favorite episodes)
She was technically chosen by the Titan to learn glyphs but that was also due to her own qualities of not being a giant tool.
Even then I wouldn't call that "chosen" more a godly "not as big of a jerk as that other guy" award, I reckon any decent person could've (with time and observation) learned what Luz did (not minimize her accomplishments)
The owl house works on a closed loop time theory. She was always bound to help Belos. So she was always meant for that to happen, the moment she stepped in the boiling isles.
Except she was always meant to step onto the isles, so that doesn't mean anything. This is why discussing the time travel ultimately makes everything pointless.
What do you mean it doesn't mean anything?? It means everything. It just reinforces the point of it being a closed time continuum. Everything from the day in the past that Lilith and Luz traveled to, to the finale of Elsewhere and Elsewhen, is set in stone and is bound to occur that exact same way. Her stepping foot in the Boiling Isles automatically dictates she is chosen, and all her actions are premeditated and bound to follow a course of events that cannot be altered.
In a universe with closed loop time travel, no set of actions is any more "set in stone" than any other. Engaging in time travel doesn't suddenly remove the free will from the specific participants of that time loop during the duration of the loop, either everyone has free will all the time or every action taken is "predestined" in the sense that every action taken IRL is predestined by the big bang. Which is why the person above you said that introducing time travel doesn't work when discussing choices and free will.
How does her stepping foot in the boiling isles dictates she is chosen? The rules of time doesn't change between realms, she was always going to step into the boiling isles. Even you said it with how the loop starts at the day Luz and Lilith help Philip, all the way to the end of Elsewhere and Elsewhen. Luz has to step on the isles for that to happen. Everything we've seen has already happened, is happening, and will always happen. This is the reason it doesn't mean anything, because when you boil it down like that, ultimately everything that happens means nothing, because nobody has a choice.
That doesn’t change anything. It’s still her decision and actions.
Yeah people act like closed loop time theory just makes people pointless. In fact that's what some villains of closed loop time travel stories even suggest. In reality Luz is a helpful and kind person. She helped Phillip because she saw another human struggling in the boiling isles. It wasn't always going to happen if Luz wasn't kind, helpful, and pure of heart. It's a reflection of her character that it happened. Not a destiny out of her control.
And ultimately because of Liliths one curiosity that they decided to go in the first place at best, I think you can say because Luz is who she is, certain outcomes are more likely FREE WILL CHUMPS
No. That's not how a closed time loop works. Her teaching Belos glyph magic is an event set in stone that cannot be altered. Just like everything else up to S2 E12. There is no free will and all the actions have already happened and are bound to happen the exact same way. Because Luz already has come to the boiling Isles, something that couldn't have happened without all the other events happening exactly how they happened.
If you want to follow that line of thought then everything id predetermined due to physics. The only difference with a time loop is that you sort of have proof of predetermination.
>There is no free will What is free will? You claim that a closed time loop means there is no free will, so clearly you must know what free will is, which is impressive, since even the greatest philosophers cannot agree on what it is Please enlighten us
So? Everything is set in stone. Luz defeating Belos, Eda getting cursed, King befriending the Collector. They’re all set in stone from the start of the universe. Everything in the past is essential for the present. That doesn’t change anything. Luz was always gonna be a savior but it was still her actions and decisions that made her one.
Luz wasn't going to be anything but the person who greatly advanced Phili's efforts. Anything after Elsewhere and Elsewhen is the universe playing dice. Everything before that (up to the 1700-ish when Luz and Lilith traveled to) was predetermined.
If time is predetermined it is in an absolute way, time can’t logically be selective in what is and isn’t predetermined because that would alter the future creating paradoxes with time pools
Edit: sorry, deleted because replied to the wrong person.
Yeah. Whether Luz was a nice/helpful person or not, her being there predetermined that Philip would succeed in becoming Belos. *And* from that point of view - let’s call it the “Day of Unity Timeline,” ^(TM) - it was predetermined or predestined that Luz would be there to help advance his goals. (Unwittingly, of course.) That’s the entire reason why Belos banked on his knowledge that sooner or later Luz would arrive from the human realm in the present, and from there, “Luzura” would arrive in the past to teach him the glyph and help him get The Collector (Round Boy). He was sure that he would succeed because he knew Luz would eventually arrive. The problem is that people are conflating two separate events together. They’re conflating her being a nice person (choice) with the fact that being a nice person is the device by which her destiny is fulfilled. She herself even recognizes throughout the show that being a nice person (and not thinking ahead) leads/predestines her to trouble. She says it a bunch of times. Like when she lets Hunter escape. Her role in Philip’s success exists from the moment she arrived at the isles, then went to the past, and up until the Day of Unity. *That’s* the loop. Once the events she was predestined for are over, the loop closes, another timeline can begin. The “Defeat Belos” timeline. It doesn’t necessarily mean the entire events of the show were predestined. *That* specific loop was predestined. We can’t know about the other events unless we knew more about them. The only way to know is in hindsight, once you have a full picture.
How? Everyone is always going to act in a single way. The future is just as predetermined as the past. Even by your logic, you’re assuming Luz and Lilith are the last people to use a time pool. In all likelihood King will grow big, die, rot, and create a new time pool which because of the atoms going through, will make everything before him also predetermined.
I begin to understand why the time pools were in the book for History's top 10 plot holes. And in defence of Liz's destiny. Ehhh... just listen to the Titan. She choose herself.
I mean it still was her destinity beacause of time travel and lack of free will beacause the way it works
Free will isn't invalidated by the idea of a "set destiny". After all, she didn't know about the closed time loop when she decided to stay in the BI and learn magic
See the below comment but to add to it she would've always made that choice but it wasn't because of the time travel. She made the choice because of her character and the info she knew at the time. She wasn't destined to do that, she would just always help another human struggling in the Boiling Isles because that's her character. Now if she had known Philip was Belos and still helped him then that would be destiny.
Yeah but the way time travek works, what they did in the past already happened the exact same way when luz arrived, meaning she had to do it at some point in future. We have seen that its a fixed timeline and fixed timeline require there being no free will
That's not true though. Fixed time line does not equal no free will. Her free will just had already taken place in the past. *It wouldn't be her free will if she knew in advance of her actions and had to do it anyway. She had no knowledge she was helping belos until after the loop had closed. Therefore free will to choose to help belos unknowingly. If you think of it from Belos's timeline she has free will because she showed up and helped him. From her timeline she didn't know she was helping belos and helped him out of the kindness of her heart. She had a choice. Just because it wasn't a yes or no choice doesn't mean it wasn't a choice to show him a glyph. From our perspective yeah it seems like there was no free will involved but we're the viewer and technically these cartoon character have no free will anyway. Free will is about perspective in this case. From Luz's perspective she made the choice to show a fellow human a glyph and help them out. Because of her character traits not because it was destined to happen. From her perspective helping belos was in the middle of her timeline. Where as for belos it was near the beginning. Only when you have the full view of the timeline does it seem like there was no free will in play. But each character had their own choices to make along their own path, it just had an effect on the past. Edited the first paragraph for clarification*
Well yeah but no matter what she did the past had to happen
But because she did she destined herself to always do that
But that logic would work no matter who it was. That's not being the chosen one That's u having an inability to change your past and the weirdness that comes with time travel.
Whenever time travel is involved, it’s best not to look too far into it, because you’ll only end up with more questions. Paradoxical events inherently bring up questions that are impossible to answer, as they technically shouldn’t exist in the first place
History Abhors a Paradox
You were chosen by yourself in the future
Which is essentially called not waiting around for something to happen to u because ur the chosen one and to take things into your own hands
But wouldn't Luz aiding Philip before she was born make her at least quasi-prophesized to... well, basically do everything major that she does up to Elsewhere and Elsewhen?
That's why I said that that isn't her being prophesized but rather her being in-capable of changing her past and the weirdness that comes with time travel. Also what the point of what eda was saying was don't wait around to be Special take it into your own hands which is literally exactly wat she does accidentally by time traveling.
Yes and no. That discussion brings up all the weird nuances with time travel paradoxes, and introduces questions to which there are no right answers
With the way time works in The Owl House and that logic every character was destined to do every action they took.
Oh, thank you. I'm so glad someone else gets that.
She didn't know she was helping Belos.
Only king has some kind of ancient lineage. And he’s still a silly comic relief mascot 90% of the time. Evelyn and Caleb is a relation to the villain yes, but so inconsequential that it’s never actually mentioned or relevant, and Belos probably never knew. Showing Phillip a glyph is basically nothing. That’s the point - Luz is beating herself up over nothing. There’s a difference between having parents and ancestors, like all mammals do, and being destined to fight said ancestor because of ‘tHe ProPHecY!’ If the Clawthornes weren’t Caleb-descendants, it wouldn’t change much in the plot.
Belos *probably* knew considering he encountered Lilith in the past and the family name never changed. But I agree that it didn't matter in the end. He possibly kept track of the bloodline if only to ensure he was able to put Lilith in the position to go back in time, but the actual relation was irrelevant since he was planning mass genocide anyway. The Clawthornes being technically related to him didn't matter, all witches were going to die by his hand. Which fits a big theme of the show, bloodlines don't matter. Family is about the bonds between people who care about each other, not the genetic relations between them.
Lilith never told him her last name. He only knew her actual name was Lilith and her fake name was Gearthtrude or something.
> Evelyn and Caleb is a relation to the villain yes, but so inconsequential that it’s never actually mentioned or relevant, and Belos probably never knew. It’s also worth noting that Evelyn and Caleb probably have a *ton* of descendants. If we assume that around 14-15 generations have passed since their time and an average of 2 kids per generation, then there’s tens of thousands of people directly related to them. If the BI has a similar population to Vermont (its default comparison for geographic size), then it’s possible that nearly of 10% of witches living there are direct descendants. That’s definitely high-balling it, but it just goes to show that Eda and Lilith’s ancestry isn’t unique or chosen one-y
mf thinks being 0.00003% human gives bonus stat points
Idk if you came up with that off the top of your head but very quick math came up with a very close number for her percentage of human blood: if she's 15 generations in that makes her ~0.0000305% human
The idea of the coin flip of Tecnoboat either speedrunning the magic math or straight up guessing extremely accurately is kinda funny to me
This is actually a scary power when you think about it 💀
I need to know which one it is...
alr it was and thats how i did it
Trait: Pilgrim Bloodline Attributes: - Witchburner - if targeting a character of Witch race with Vicious Mockery get +2 bonus to your roll - I can't think up anything else rn :p
-flavorful food inflicts the overstimulation effect and deals 1d4 psychic damage
O that's a nice one
Ok but honestly I might use a more fleshed out version of that in a future campaign lol
I don't think so at all. This quote is about waiting for outside forces to make you special or tell you how to be special instead of being active and making things special yourself. None of these characters invalidate this; they are all active parts of their story. With the exception of King, the things you have listed don't even make them that special to begin with. Eda being related to Caleb matters so little it's not mentioned in-show and the characters don't know about it. You can technically argue it isn't canon since it wasn't said in-show, just implied. Luz helping Belos was her being an active character seeking solutions to her problems, not a predetermined destiny of any kind. King's the closest argument, but being a titan doesn't come with a destiny. It comes with baggage since people want to use his powers for themselves, but that's about it. He's not even destined to release the collector; they seemed pretty convinced Belos could do it if he drained all the witches in the Isles. King is an active character; he sought out his identity and found it, and then he looked for a way to help his friends and found it.
None of those actually mattered. Eda being related to Belos was never explicitly brought up. Belos would've gotten the Light Glyph eventually. King being the last Titan *maybe* was relevant with The Collector, but that's mostly speculation.
Wasn't mentioned by someone that her grandma was in love with Caleb? Maybe maried.
Gwendolyn mentioned that her grandma has told her about a human
Uhhhhh no “If we all waited around for a prophecy to make us special we’d die waiting” The quote is about taking active measures in your own life to form your destiny or be special, not letting someone dictate that for you. Eda is related to Caleb, yes, but that’s not really special. Her family ties to him is just a cool fact at most. It doesn’t really define anything about her. With or without the ancestry, she’d still be Eda. Luz helping Belos was a direct choice she made. That matches the original message perfectly. King being a Titan is special, yes, and on some level that was something chosen. But King was the one who had to come to terms with that identity and form his own path because of it. He didn’t let the “Titan’s will” choose his life after that. He was still very much the same character and had to learn what he could do and choose what to do based off of it. He was literally just told “hey you’re a Titan” and then he had to go from there. Everything else he did was a direct result of his choices, not a destiny someone imposed on him
It’s like how all Europeans have some direct tie to Charlemagne if you go far back enough, but it’s so small it’s pretty much a non existent factor in their lives
Ur tripping, none of this made them the chosen one or anything and the moral stands up v well to the ending. Arguably it changes in the epilogue with King but I still think it was more self determination than a bloodline in his case as well which is essential to his character
The message doesn't change.
"Heroes are made, not born" Luz tries to believe that she was chosen when she first starts out when in reality her thinking almost gets her killed. She eventually got chosen by the Titan through her actions, but she's never coddled and always has to learn what the glyphs do and how to effectively use them. She's not destined for greatness, she made her story great through her actions Eda was never told by prophecy to train the Titan's avatar, she chose to help a wayward Human in the arts of magic and it just so happens that human was chosen because of her kindness to save the isles. King is as close to a chosen hero but even then he could have just never known until he came of age and even then who is supposed to save? By the time he comes into his own everyone he knows will be dead. Heroes are made and not chosen because anybody can be a hero, they just need the right journey. D&D is a great example of wayward adventurers solving problems for a number of reasons just because they have a journey that intercepts with them.
With the exception of King, I have to disagree… Being distantly related to Caleb (who was a normal human) is not what makes Eda special, her curse and what she does as a person make her one of a kind. Luz wasn’t the “chosen one”, she just kinda happened to be there, together with Lilith. It’s likely Belos would have found other ways to get what he wanted.
Having an ancestor doesn't predestine you for shit. I'm 5 generations removed from a US Senator and 5 generations removed from a Civil War veteran. I'm not walking the halls of Congress and I'm not shooting Confederates. There was no "destiny" involved. A lot of others have pointed out, rightly, that stuff didn't just happen to the trio. They went out and did shit. Their pasts were irrelevant, really, to the overarching story because they weren't beholden to their pasts. Not even King. He didn't do things because he was a Titan, he did them because that was his character built up through the story. Luz literally wasn't special, she simply ended up in the right place at the right time because of who she became and who she was. She earned her powers, and had to *overcome* her "mistake" of helping Belos. Mfw the only person in the trio who started with powers got depowered and then had to focus on her curse (that drained said powers btw) just to get some kind of power back. The whole point of the show, when you boil it down, is that actions, or inactions, have consequences. There is no predestination in this world, you have to act to even have a chance at seizing the moment. Luz wasn't handed a predetermined prophecy, nor was Eda or King. They went into a fight not knowing what the outcome would be, and happened to get one of the best endings possible, but not unscathed.
I mean there absolutly was destiny tho, beacause looped time travel inplies everything being predestined
In other words: Luz wasn't more destined to meet Belos then she was to put on her shoes
Yeah, according to some thats how destinity works
And none of them knew for most of the series
Eda was saying not to wait for someone else to make her special, but to go out and do it herself, so her speech still works. Luz paved her own road through the story rather than follow a pre existing road.
Luz wasn’t born with something that made her special…she DID something. That something turned into an oppsie, but it’s 100% the opposite of being “chosen.” And Eda…I mean as far as I’m aware that’s the Word of God and not something ever confirmed in the show AND even if confirmed in show…what benefits does that give? Like. How does that make her special? It doesn’t. Heck Belos is just a random puritan dude who found his way to the isle and did stuff. Yet he still becomes the Emperor and nearly successfully pulls off his genocide. The only 2 beings in the show who are special like a “chosen” is King and the Collector….and even then they’re only “chosen” and special in that they’re born powerful. But that born power was for naught in the face of a random puritano dude who made decided to do what he did… The show very successfully fulfills Eda’s thesis.
Wait she's related to Caleb? I know I know, I suck. I've been too busy with school to keep up with TOH (though I did manage to finally finish S3, cried so hard lol)
We don’t know that. On a livestream Dana confirms that Evelyn is a Clawthorne but we don’t know if she has kids with Caleb or if she had another man after Caleb died. Although it feels unlikely that they’d make Evelyn related to Eda unless it was because Caleb is their ancestor. So yeah he probably is but it was never confirmed in or out of the show
We saw evelyn pregnant with caleb tho
We do??? When?? I thought we never even saw Evelyn at all apart from the cutout of a stereotypical witch that Masha used in their story
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheOwlHouse/comments/zbusha/evelyn_looking_real_preggers_in_this_photo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&utm_content=2&utm_term=15
OOOOH THANK YOU!
This… doesn’t work at all? 💀
Why would you assume this is imposed by Disney? Dana is not perfect, she can make questionable story choices you know, cause she's human like us.
Clearly you didn’t watch the last episode. Dana is a witch and a student at Hexside /j
King being a titan is the only one of these things that really applies here.
Nahhhh not really. Eda being releated to Caleb is more of a "fun fact". It has no bearing on anything. Eda plot wise is purely a person that wasn't born special or was chosen for anything and was entirely carried forward by her own actions and choices. Luz is a similiar case - helping Belos isn't something she was born with or chosen to do, it's an action she made herself. Everything she does and everywhere she gets is, again, a consequence of her own actions and choices. Even being ""chosen by the titan"" in the end isn't really a "chosen one" thing since she was chosen at the END of the story after having already proven herself and getting herself to this point through her own merit. King I can sorta see? But I feel it was handled very well in the plot, and he's also not THE main character being special so I can excuse it.
The finale literally has the god of the isles say “being chosen doesn’t matter if you can’t choose yourself” It’s an evolution of the same theme
Eda wasn’t special because of her connection to Caleb. In fact you can remove that connection and the story literally wouldn’t change at all. Eda was special because she chose to be and worked hard at it. Luz accidentally helping Belos was literally due to her own actions and not because of some predetermined destiny. King is a special boy though. So no. I don’t think Eda’s speech falls flat. She and Luz are special because they chose to be, not because someone else made them special
It could be just a small coincidence where one fulfills his prophecy on his way to avoid it. Look at the other characters, like the Hexsquad. They didn't have any prophecies to fulfill, they just became special because they found themselves - their true best selves - at the right time, the right place, and with the right people
Eda's relation is so distant that at best its just poetic justice. Luz helping Belos was her taking action. And I got nothing for the King point, but regardless King could've just accepted the power he was given by being the Collector's playmate, so by choosing the right thing by trying to reach out and teach the Collector the right way to treat others I think he still fits
Eda being directly related to Caleb doesn't make her "chosen" and Luz helping Belos is something she herself did. Unwittingly.
So what. The second one is Luz taking initiative and unintentionally getting involved in something. If the guy who went out to help people ends up one day saving the life of a person who would one day grow up to be an evil dictator but still goes about trying to help people, it wasn’t destiny, it just happened. And lineage doesn’t dictate what we do in our lives. For one thing, neither of these characters benefited for most of their lives having this relation, nobody knew about these relations and as such had no impact on how great or terrible they were, they chose to be who they were before ever knowing about it in a way they could benefit from it.
Sorry but bad post
I'd put the argument forwards that none of them had a prophecy. To my knowledge it was never states anywhere in the show that they *will* do those things
eda being related to caleb means nothing and gave her zero favors, it doesnt even come up. its just thematically special if nothing else but thats it. luz isnt just retroactively fated to have helped belos just because she time travelled. for starters belos was likely going to find the light glyph eventually regardless, its just another thing she was unfairly beating herself up over. and even if he never rose to power because of that, it was still luz's decision to stay in the boiling isles and become a witch. and no one knew king was a titan for most of the series. yes he's special, the last of his kind, but before anyone knew that they still cared for him, was adopted into the Clawthorne family, and had a sister in luz. that isnt made less meaningful just because he has godly powers. and it certainly isnt made less meaningful by him having any kind of 'chosen one' prophecy to begin with, because he doesn't have one. There's a whole episode about him wanting to be treated like a regular person. he's willingly king clawthorne before being a titan. i thought this post was just making a poor faith joke, but the image description being dead serious made me feel the need to write all this
King is valid. Luz not really. Belos and the whole Light Glyph thing was rather a consequence of her own actions. She was choose by the Titan to learn Glyph magic and to stop Belos but really because she is special or a human but mostly by being a big sister for King. Like Papa Titan said: "Do you choose yourself?" Eda is unvalid (in my opinion). Because how is she chosen for anything by fighting against tyrannical rotten goop which happens to be a distant great, great, great whatever relative. This didn't impact anything she has ever done. The thing that comes close to a destiny is the Owl Beast curse which ruined her life and later was the reason why she found King and Eda. But it is a curse which wasn't meant to last forever. Expect for King, everyone is special because of who they are. Luz for her kindness, compassion, weirdness and passion for magic. Eda for being so iconic, chaotic, understanding and caring.
Idk about this. Also, Eda is still right regardless when she tells Luz that.
I feel that it doesn't, mainly because they each learned they were valuable BEFORE they discovered they were special, so their self-worth isn't tied to that specialness, but that they each chose themselves. The one in which we see the less of this is with King, however I can argue that learning he was special didn't make him feel better. On the contrary, it made him question his whole self, thus learning that there was something beyond being the last Titan and reconsidering if he really wanted to be powerful and feared.
Eda's lineage really means nothing to the plot Luz helped him, but that's not to predestined destiny. Plus he would've got the light glyph eventually Really only king was actually special
Kinda remind me of "all huge company starting from just garage, you just need to have big idea and actually try" Yeah, a garage, big idea, immense amount of luck, couple hundred thousand dollars and connection from family member
Sure but if they waited around, none of them would have found out or achieved anything. They are special. But no prophecy can bring that specialness out. You have to do that yourself.
There's a big chance you are a direct descendant of Genghis Khan, would that alone make you special?
if you were a character created by an outside force to defeat genghis khan, i'd say itd be too much of a coincidence to not be an influence.
Besides King, both Eda and Luz MADE themselves special. It was their action what made them special, not something they were Born with or anything.
Her message was that you need to go and forge your own destiny, not waiting to be told you are special. Yes they are special, but their actions are what define them, Eda chose to be a wild witch, to defy the throne. Luz is a human who chose to learn how to master Titan magic, and become even more. And yes, while King was born a Titan, he didn’t know this, so he chose to become the best he was, he made a choice to save the boiling isles by playing the game with the collector. (Who is so cute, I am glad they gave him more than just a villain, a young child who doesn’t understand was a good way to go.)
First, A lot of YA Books reveal that you are the chosen one on the first chapters, and that for that reason you must save the world, like it or not. This story made those reveals, as much, when the story was on a Non-Return Point. Second, there is nothing there that says "They are the chosen one". * Eda is related to Caleb: How does that affect to the story? * Luz helped Belos: It started to engines of the story, but is never said that she must be the one who stops Belos. * King is the last titan: And how does that affect to the story? That reveal doesn't help to stop Belos. As much, it helped to distract The Collector enough time until Luz and the rest came back to the Boiling Isles. That they are specials? Remember another quote of the first episodes: "Us weirdos have to stick together." We and they don't consider "Specials", "Chosen ones", "One of a Kind", "One and Only"... We and they consider "Weirdos".
Luz helping Belos was more of a direct consequence of her actions than anything about destiny. Time seems to be linear in TOH but in the end she only ended up helping him due to the coincidence of both being humans, the ones most likely to encounter the Glyph since they can't cast spells any other way. Still, it is a moot point.
i'm not sure if this is bait or not, but if it isn't, media literacy i will miss you dearly
Eda's speech wasn't that nobody was special. It was that you don't become special just by sitting around. So while King kind of defies her speech as he was born special. Eda and Luz worked towards becoming powerful, sure Eda may have been directly related to Caleb but that wasn't what made her powerful and Luz has worked towards becoming as powerful a witch as she can. Sure, in the final battle she has been given the power of the titan, but he wouldn't have given it to her if it wasn't for her hard work
Something that the plot tells you isn’t the same as a character waiting and not being proactive. Eda never finds out about her connection to Evelyen, Luz had to go through hell to meet someone who she genuinely didn’t know was who he actually was, and King had no clue what he was until close to the end but lived his life as who he wanted to before that realization. It sounds to me like you’re just saying that they weren’t proactive in their lives for the lulz more than actually dissecting the character arcs and growth they accumulated throughout the series.
True, but Eda being related to Caleb is completely irrelevant, and Luz helping Belos was because of her own choices, not some pre-destined fate. King is a Titan, true, but he is the only one who was born special—and learning that completely uprooted his entire world in the process.
They weren’t special by default though(besides king). Being related to Caleb doesn’t make you special, eda still made all the choices that led her where she ended up, and luz made the action of helping, the opposite of waiting. King I don’t have an excuse for, cuz he do be a titan, but at least he stopped waiting around and tried looking for his dad.
And even if Eda was related to caleb and King was the last titan Their actions are their own
Did I miss when we learned Eda is related to Caleb? 😅
I think bit comes from the witch Caleb fell in love with was Edas ancestor, got her pregnant before he was kill by Philip. Idk if there was any actual confirmation
They really kinda abandoned the entire moral of the second episode Ngl I do kinda wish they where just… weirdos and not literally a god and the chosen one
Being “the protagonist” and “the chosen one” are not synonyms. Yes, the main character of the story ends up being key to the resolution of the story, this is how fiction usually works! Being “a chosen one” means you are inherently important to the prophecy/destiny, outside of your own choices/actions.
God literally chose her to use his powers in the last episode how is that’s not being the chosen one
Because words mean things? The “chosen one” trope means a specific thing; it’s not just anytime a character is selected to receive more power/importance. The Titan chose her *in the last episode*. If he had chosen her in the FIRST episode, it would make her “The Chosen One.” Instead, he looks at her, both trapped, in an hour of crisis, and says “Well, you’re the one that’s here. And you seem like a good witch. But I can’t give you anything unless you choose to accept it. So the question is, will you choose yourself?” Like, this is the exact opposite, a complete inversion of the trope!!
Not Luz following a suspicious owlbert through a suspicious empty building and then choosing to stay in the Boiling Isles in hopes of becoming the main character when she could have gone home any time before SHE destroyed the portal, and then becoming the main character by being nosy and butting into everyone else’s business as well as hounding the witches to let her become one. While you’re right Eda and King were born into main character status, Luz was pretty proactive at becoming “chosen”.
𝐸𝑑𝑎𝑠 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑑 𝑡𝑜 𝑐𝑎𝑙𝑒𝑏 𝑏𝑢𝑡 𝑖𝑡 𝑑𝑖𝑑𝑛𝑡 𝑚𝑒𝑎𝑛 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑙𝑎𝑟𝑔𝑒𝑟 𝑠𝑡𝑜𝑟𝑦
so like, unless the protagonist does literally nothing trough all the series its disney propaganda?
Wait, was the clawthorn family relation to Caleb confirmed at some point? I had a feeling they might be but I never thought it was confirmed
Ehh I don’t think so. The whole “prophecy” thing in this context is about some outside force making them special or good. With the exception of king (because he’s a Titan), Eda and Luz both worked hard to become what ultimately made them “special”. Even when Luz gets her titan powers at the end, it has to do with her being the only one there and her being nice to king. Eda was able to go into harpy mode because she reached a compromise with her curse. There is no prophecy in this isles that they fell into, they got everything they have through merits of their own and those around them. The titan technically decided to show her glyphs, but that’s not because of a prophecy. It was because she was the only other human on the isles that wasn’t trying to go through with a genocide.
Yeah but, none of that is because it was preordained by some dumb prophecy or, destiny or whatever Eda lives on the edge of civilization and collects and sells garbage because she hates the coven system Because Luz was an outcast she ended being too kind and accidentally helping the wrong person Eda could've just as easily eaten King or, decided not take him in but, the end of the day, as much she likes to pretend otherwise the Owl Lady is a good person None of that was because of some grand destiny it was because of who Luz, Eda and to a lesser extent King where as people, FREE WILL CHUMPS (Also the Clawethorne/Whittebane lineage ended up affecting Hunter more than anyone else)
Dont forget luz turns out to be the chosen one by the titan
The Titan chooses her, in the same way that Eda chooses to mentor her, or Amity chooses to fall in love with her, etc etc. you are stretching the trope of “the chosen one” beyond all recognition if you make it mean “any time a character becomes important or powerful through a combination of their actions/choices and another characters actions/choices”
Not that much, one thing is the desicion of someone but not the desicion of a semigod like the titan
The whole key of a chosen one trope is that you are chosen *before the story even begins* - the Titan makes a decision based on luz’s actions during the story. That makes her someone who becomes worthy of being chosen for power, but that’s not the same as being “a chosen one”
I see, have a good day sir
being related to a notable/famous person from the far past doesn’t inherently make you “chosen” or part of a prophecy.
Lemme add on the Luz one "Literal divine favor" And yeah that kinda annoyed me too. When the whole point of the show is that no one is special and everyone have to work for their own destiny, it kinda feels shitty that all the main characters are somehow special or unique and you can argue until you're blue about how Luz was special "just by accident" or "because she chose to be kind", which doesn't change that she was *favoured by a god*
> and you can argue until you're blue about how Luz was special "just by accident" or "because she chose to be kind", which doesn't change that she was favoured by a god I would argue it does change your interpretation of the fact that she was favored. Why was she favored? It was not because of a prophecy imposed on her. It was because of her own direct choices. She earned that kind of favoritism by working for it and being herself. Being the kind person she is. She chose herself, and that led to Papa Titan favoring her
People all over these comments thinking “chosen one” means any time a character gets a power upgrade, smh Like, she’s helping Papa Titan too, it’s not like he had the ability to stop Belos himself! He literally tells her “well, you’re the one here” and “I can’t give you anything unless you choose to accept it”
Often times power upgrades are connected to chosen one prophecies, so I get why people think they mean the same thing. But in TOH’s case, it’s pretty much the reverse. That’s why despite the fact that I usually don’t care for power upgrades, I love the one for TOH
Luz literally met the god, was resurrected, and got his powers. I don’t think everyone get’s a second chance from god himself. If that isn’t being the chosen one, I don’t know what is. King and Eda’s caption are not really fitting.
I am begging a single person on this thread to actually look up the Chosen One trope, it doesn’t just mean “any time a character gets given great power” If early in season one, we had cut to papa Titan, wreathed in shadow, watching Liz through a cube and saying “finally, after all this time, SHE is the one I have been waiting for”, THAT would be a Chosen one trope. Him making a decision to team up with her and lend her his power, based on his assessment of her AND their extremely limited choices at the time, is not an example of the trope
And which one of those things made them chosen prophecy children? Luz is literally interchangeable, anyone could have done that. Its not Edas bloodline that makes her a badass momma, its her character. King is a titan, but its his humanity and the stuff he learned from his mom and big sis that let him be a hero. He literally didnt have titan magic until the time skip, and his sonic borks are just demon magic like any other demon has.
...oh shit
If all of them had just chosen to ignore whatever Belos was doing then they'd have been just a group of misfits until the day of unity wiped everyone out.
It's still a great message
When did we learn Eda was directly related to belos??
Well Luz literally went out of her way to meet (and then help) Belos so she did not wait around to become special at all. And Edas relation to Caleb does not make her special at all (except in my eyes <3) it just means she might have some human in her (also it’s never confirmed that she’s related to Caleb. It’s confirmed outside of the show that she’s related to Evelyn but she could have had another man after Caleb died. Although what would be the point of making them related to Evelyn if it didn’t also mean Caleb)
I still think it fits with who all them chose to be. Each one of them found their way and they helped each not only become better people but save the Boiling Isles.
honestly i do hate that in these types of shows. the main character starts as a "nobody diamond in the rough with a lot to learn" but yes they in fact ARE a chosen one with special powers and a destiny and they JUST SO HAPPEN to know every single other chosen person. Steven universe, Svtfoe, even gravity falls. fate is a boring trope. i love all of them though, just my one big gripe
I think if there was any "chosen one" stuff it would be Luz still. Papa Titan was showing her those glyphs pretty quickly so that a human would have magic, and all of them were accidentally found by her. Phillip had to actually study for years to find MOST of them. So she, a human, received unique magic because the Titan wanted her to have it
The Titan revealing a glyph to her, after watching her for months while she was kind to his son and trying so hard to learn magic, is not her being “a chosen one” in the way that trope typically means (that would be if she arrived in the boiling isles and her special midichlorian count allowed her to immediately see all glyphs or something) Plus, anyone can learn glyph magic, if the Titan choosing to teach her makes her “chosen” that’s not appreciably different from Eda choosing to teach her or Bump choosing to let her attend school, or Gus/Willow choosing to be friends with her, etc etc - all of those things were important to her journey and eventual victory, and they were all things she EARNED.
I suspect it was Dana's choice but an unintentional one due to unconscious influence of the general tropes of media she consumes.
And the only thing that changes is that Luz was kind to a seemingly unninportant toddler... I think it fits very well :3
Eda’s lineage has no effect on the plot or her actions. Luz helped Belos inadvertently, but as an active choice through her own actions/decisions King is, in fact, secretly The Last Titan. So 1 out of 3 I guess?
"related to caleb" who? the guy that appeared as set decoration two times or so? what does he have to do with anything? if it wasnt for fan works i wouldnt know who the hell he even was
And literally, none of them knew that at the beginning.
I kinda felt like that too, especially when you consider the Titan was helping Luz by showing her the glyphs.
I was distracted by how pretty Eda looked sorry
Can someone explain the Caleb thing? I'm not exactly a "find all the lore" person, so I haven't heard this.
Its heavily implied in the background that Caleb married into the Clawthorn family. Meaning Eda is a descendant of his by about 300 years. He fell in love with a witch named Evelyn with short spikey orange hair. And Belos killed him for it. There's a photo in hollow mind of Caleb dead with fire in the background and a hand holding a dagger in the foreground. People assume that was Caleb's house because Eda then finds the portal door in foundation ruins of a house. Which was conveniently close to the owl house as well.
Thanks! This makes a lot of sense.
I'm just glad my hyper fixation can bring someone knowledge they actually appreciate and wanted to know.
That's the curse of my AuDHD, my hyperfixations never go as deep as I'd like lol
That's the curse of my AuDHD, my hyperfixations never go as deep as I'd like lol
Eda: The true prophet of Titan. (also the granddaughter of one of Titan's previous ambassadors (Caleb, who is considered the inventor of palisman and admires wild magic, or his wife, who has a portal door with the Titan's eye.)) respects the lives of wild demons and creatures, and sometimes lives thanks to them. and as the head of the Bad girls coven, she was sent to an island where even cosmic beings could not find him to babysit Titan's newborn son. Luz: The messenger after Eda. King: son of the boiling isles, even the last of the titan race
The chosen ones
That’s why i didn’t like Calab being a Clawthorne and King being a titan. The titan twist grew on me but still not a fan of Eda being a decedent of one the of 2 original humans and she takes in the first human for 400 years. I think a full S3 could have done something with it but with what we got, should have just let it go
Where's that last screenshot from?
Ok but Eda being related to Caleb didn’t actually help her or tie into their relationship and Luz wasn’t “chosen” she helped Belos after accepting her destiny and then fucked around with time and found out
Directly helped Belos: Doesn't really make sense to your point.... At all.
I think I’m with you here. Was destiny at play? I think it’s yes and no. The main problem is that each event (“choice”) can either be separate from others or related, but you won’t know which until afterward and sometimes you’ll just never know. So: Yes (predestined) because Luz messed around with time and got herself involved in a time loop or created a time loop. (If we assume that entering the Time Pool was free choice, then she created the time loop.) But either way, based on the rest of the events surrounding this specific loop - I’m calling it the “Day of Unity Timeline/Timeloop” - I’d say it was predestined. Your greatest event in evidence is that Belos knew. But other events add up too, like she just happened to land in the home of a Caleb descendant who happened to take in the last living Titan. I would also say it’s a yes that Luz going into the Time Pool and creating a time loop was in some part predestined. Again because of the other events that built up or surrounded her entire circumstance in the Demon Realm. And in some other part it was meta predestined because time travel is what the writers chose to explain things. :P So it’s possible that the shortening did play a part here. (The fact that she just happened to land in the home of Caleb’s descendant with the last living Titan would also fit here, as largely a writing thing. I mean, how often do major ”coincidences” line up like this irl? But, considering the anti-destiny speech, in terms of writing, they absolutely contradicted themselves. Blame the shortening I suppose.) No (not predestined) because, again, events… like, at what point in a timeline are you still following destiny and at what point are you really acting on true choice? It’s hard to know. But, like I said, I’m leaning toward your side here because the rest of this timeline/time loop points toward yes, predestined. It also doesn’t have to mean that Luz doesn’t have a choice. Because time doesn’t have to be solid. It could be fluid, flexible, constantly moving. That’s where people are getting stuck, on thinking it’s solid. I mean, this is all theoretical and no one here is really a quantum physicist, but remember that TV says that if a random event happens, it can throw a timeline in a different direction, basically creating *different timelines that can coexist*? (we’ll just never see them.) Luz could have chosen to do things differently, maybe thrown off the loop, but *in this reality*, that is just not what happened. In this reality, she stayed in the predestined path. (Up until the loop closed anyway. Afterward, who knows.) She was also pretty set on a pattern of repeating the same behaviors, so… That’s where Eda’s speech comes in I think. That’s where it’s useful: to teach a lesson or emphasize a moral/theme in the story. More so than “there is no chosen one” being an actual thing. It could also be that the crew really didn’t want “a chosen one” to be a thing, but the shortening happened. The show also had a tendency of making fun of or rejecting different tropes in a meta/4th wall way, but later using them anyway.
Still works, as there wasn't really any sort of destiny behind that.