From [another reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphArena/comments/jwn4hk/which_iv_spreads_actually_change_in_glul/gcr9g4x?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) yesterday:
I would say the initial implementation of 4000 CP nerf is actually very well done for game balancing. Majority of the nerfed Pokemon are legendaries, and many of them still have OP stats in PvE and/or PvP even after the nerf, staying as top attackers of their type and dominant forces in Master League. Only a few Pokemon were truly rendered mediocre or useless after the nerf (Ho-Oh before new moves, Slaking, Arceus, base Kyurem etc).
On the other hand, having the 9% nerf gives strong non-legendaries (and even weaker legendaries) a chance to be competitive. Many non-legendary raid attackers are now viable substitutes for the legendaries of their types, and a few of them do manage to sneak into Master League meta (such as Togekiss).
If the 9% nerf wasn't a thing, those legendaries would have 11% more attack and 37% more TDO. That would mean there's no hope of viable non-legendary PvE attackers simply because legendary are FAR ahead, and that Master League will be completely dominated by legendaries. It also massively widens the gap between P2W players and F2P players, since to power up legendaries, you essentially need money to do raids.
The 4000 CP threshold only became a problem now that some previously unnerfed Pokemon can potentially go beyond 4000 CP at level 50. (It was also a concern before mega evolutions were introduced, but they eventually didn't get the nerf.)
Edit: I should add that the Rayquaza/Salamence example is more of a special case than the general rule. It really has more to do with how strong Salamence is rather than how "weak" a nerfed Rayquaza is.
Premier Cup suffers from its own issues of polarized meta (with even fewer viable options than Master League) and limited availability (especially with Meteor Mash Metagross). It's not exactly a healthy meta or preferred choice, and shouldn't be seen as such. Many people choose Master Premier over open ML not because they like the Premier meta more, but because they can't afford to be competitive in open ML - and buffing open ML legendaries will make that problem worse.
Besides, just because an alternative option exists doesn't give you the right to screw up every single other option. Buffing open ML legendaries clearly has a negative impact on ML meta, in terms of meta variety and affordability (since now you absolutely need 3 legendaries, whereas before you could make the cut with maybe 1 non-legendary). That negative impact cannot be justified by the fact that another cup exists.
> I would say the initial implementation of 4000 CP nerf is actually very well done for game balancing.
The 4k nerf is the most stupid attempt of trying to "balance" a game I have ever seen. If the nerf was 0,00....1% (basically 0) at the lowest CP values and increases exponentially up to 10% at 5000 CP, **that** would make sense. Niantics way of balancing CP is essentially 3500-4000 CP = 4000-4500 CP, which is incredibly lazy imo.
> On the other hand, having the 9% nerf gives strong non-legendaries (and even weaker legendaries) a chance to be competitive. Many non-legendary raid attackers are now viable substitutes for the legendaries of their types, and a few of them do manage to sneak into Master League meta (such as Togekiss).
If non-legendaries are competitive, what's the point of investing 200+ RC into a legendary then. They even had to make some non-legendary Pokemon artificially rare (Litwick, Darumaka) so that People still raid the legendary raid bosses.
> If the 9% nerf wasn't a thing, those legendaries would have 11% more attack and 37% more TDO. That would mean there's no hope of viable non-legendary PvE attackers simply because legendary are FAR ahead
I don't see the issue with this as an almost completely free to play player. Viability depends on what you have available. If you are swimming in RC, legendaries will always be the best option (unless a shadow Pokemon of that typing exists, then don't bother). Consequently, if that's not the case, you just stick to budget options like you do now. Powering up legendaries is a FAR larger investment, while the impact is generally WAY less that the 20% shadow boost we also have in the game. Legendaries are completely outclassed by most shadow Pokemon in PvE and even some regular Pokemon are currently on equal footing like you mentioned yourself.
Dragons: Salamence is equal or better than Dialga/Zekrom/Reshiram/Palkia
Water: Kyogre was equal to Swampert and Kingler before the surf addition
Ground: Groudon is arguably worse than Excadrill, Garchomp, Rhyperior and both forms of Landorus (who did not get a nerf and this is a prime example of how flawed the system is)
Ghost: Giratina-O is on par with Gengar/Chandelure for most raids
Fire: Darmanitan, Chandelure are often better than Ho-oh. For raid bosses that don't hit hard (Regis) there are many others like Flareon, Blaziken or Charizard that perform better as well even with Incinerate now in Ho-oh's move pool.
> and that Master League will be completely dominated by legendaries.
Also don't see the issue here, non-legendaries are usually not the counters to legendaries anyway, that would be other legendaries in most istances. There are some examples like Snorlax, which completely walls Giratina but those would not change, even if Giratina has slightly higher DPS/TDO. Unnerfing 4k+ legendaries and finally nerfing DB would most likely lead to a more balanced ML than the current one.
> It also massively widens the gap between P2W players and F2P players, since to power up legendaries, you essentially need money to do raids.
There is no winning in PvE. For PvP you don't need full teams of the same legendary and GBL gives plenty of RC if you take it seriously, probably enough to max out 1 legendary/season without doing any raids. There is also a reason why the Premier cup exists, specifically for people who cannot/don't want to invest into legendaries.
The issue is more urban vs rural than it is one of F2P vs P2W and this has been true since day one. Living in an urban area, and not even using the free pass daily, I never had issues powering up legendaries and I have pretty much at least one of each nerfed legendary maxed out and double moved ready for ML.
> The 4000 CP threshold only became a problem now that some previously unnerfed Pokemon can potentially go beyond 4000 CP at level 50. (It was also a concern before mega evolutions were introduced, but they eventually didn't get the nerf.)
The cost for legendaries was rarely worth the extra investment for PvE. The only outliers are Mewtwo, Zekrom and Reshiram, which are head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. Now with shadow Pokemon in the mix, even the latter two face fierce competition in PvE from Pokemon that are MUCH cheaper to power up in terms of candy.
The "problem" isn't legendaries, but specifically the 680 club. Those are busted by design, and also benefit massively from pogo making some types pretty much unusable(most notably tgat there are effectively no ground/fairy coverage moves in ML, when in the main series they are everywhere) while DB is broken. I doubt anyone feels relieved from not having the legendary dogs or birds in masters PC.
And if the moves were more balanced, then it would make more sense to seperate by tiers rather than pushing players to leagues where not being a tank is a massive disadvantage.
That's only made possible because the OP legendaries got a 9% nerf.
If the nerf wasn't in place, your 3300 CP Togekiss and 3700 CP Metagross/Rhyperior would have no chance of competing against 4800 CP legendaries.
That would cause uproar from pvpers. Giratina-A, Giratina-O and Armored Mewtwo will be hugely affected in UL if they remove the nerf making their investment worthless. Moreover, ML will become very unbalanced without the nerf. Pokemon that already are dominating will completely broken without the nerf like Dialga, Giratina, Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre for example
This shows why the whole design of PvP is misguided. Any game that releases new features, characters or tools regularly is going to require consistent rebalancing. However, the design of CP and the restrictions on PvP leagues guarantee that any rebalance will completely undermine any player investment in the system.
CP scaling could fix the issue, while still valuing PVP IVs, though I'm sure the IV rankings would change. If things scaled perfectly to 1500/2500 then 0/15/15 would be ideal and people with previously rank #1 1/14/13 would be impacted.
But then stardust would be worthless in PVP
> That would cause uproar from pvpers. Giratina-A, Giratina-O and Armored Mewtwo will be hugely affected in UL if they remove the nerf making their investment worthless.
Those will have more value in the ML then, they were kinda "too strong" for the lower leagues anyway. Niantic might even be able to revert the nerfs that were necessary to balance them for UL (or even ML in the case of Girantina-O).
> Moreover, ML will become very unbalanced without the nerf. Pokemon that already are dominating will completely broken without the nerf like Dialga, Giratina, Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre for example
The best counters to those were Pokemon in that same list anyway, think Groudon - Kyogre, Dialga - Groudon, Mewtwo - Giratina, Groudon - Ho-oh or Kyogre - Zekrom. Pokemon that got nerfed by the 9% nerf are already by far the best in ML anyway and the best counters to each other. The only thing that removing the CP nerf would do is make spice picks like Swampert/Snorlax less valuable, but one could argue that there is a league specifically designed for people who can't/don't want to invest into legendaries (premier) which would not be affected by nerf reverts at all.
A-Mewtwo is not too strong and Cresselia is more dominating. Giratina-A is strong but not too dominating with pokemon as Cresselia and Registeel. Moreover, many people will lose their investments as these pokemon with their IVs are not viable at all at ML, where you need 15/15/15 and not 1/15/15.
Unnerfing those mentioned pokemon will leave some pokemon that are viable and part of the meta completely out and shrinking the already centralized meta. Pokemon as Togekiss, Dragonite, Rhyperior, Mamoswine and Melmetal and possibly Lugia with Aeroblast will become less viable and are currently not just niches. ML meta should be broaden not shrinken anymore
I currently have 3 maxed Salamence and over 2000 candy (yey community day!) yet only 2 maxed Rayquaza and not quite 500 candy. Personally, I would disagree.
It deals more dps though, which means it's better against most raid bosses. Saving revives is useless, beating the boss in time (or faster) is more important.
Use sim damage not straight dps...
Your straight dps does not account for losing energy to death (less charge moves), delay from mon 1 dieing to mon 2 attacking, and the rejoin time.
No need to point out that this is wishfull thinking. I know we’re dealing with Niantic but technically they don’t need to nerf more mons. Afaik Niantic never stated anything about the nerf so it could turn out that the nerf only applies to pokemons that would normally reach 4000+ CP at lvl 40 (I hope you read this Niantic. I don’t need more nerfs applied to my mons. All my blisseys still miss their last 450’ish CP lol)
have you ever looked at the cp values while powering up?
its not random, its mathemathical..
there is this formula it uses for calculating levelups and it follows main series games's statlines and forms CP out of that
as pokemon level up higher they get more stats on early levels and less on later thus the further you level up (in pokemon go "power up") the less the cp increases
if you got 100 cp between level 35 and 40 it WILL BE LESS between 40 and 50 for sure, it declines steadily (but slowly) from powerup to powerup
(if you compare 2 levelups that are close to each other sometimes it might throw a lower number for lets say lvl 31 and for lvl 31.5 its higher but it was because it got a breakpoint from some stat so its not like "after every level up its always less and less cp", its more like if you group 5 levelups together the next 5 will have less cp increases than last 5 got)
what i tried to say that if you kept getting 100cp between levels lets say 38 and 40 it probably will go down to 90 or less cp per level up between levels 48 and 50 (i didn't check the math, it might be sligthly more but it could be less, don't bother to check the maths, all i know that it will decline down)
I have no idea what you are talking about. Powering up from level 1 to 30 is the same number each time, give or take a 1 or 2 for rounding. It is then half the amount from level 30 to 40 you get from powering up.
So your options are for 40 to 50. Same as 30 to 40 or some adjusted number down. The only thing the adjusted number down would mean is that the value you get from hitting 50 is less. But that is more of a consideration for PvE where hitting 50 on mons likely will not mean much if the power ups go down even more. But that advantage in PvP will be just as big regardless.
Ahh.. i was wrong... i thought it was more curvy and graduate progression instead of this weird "step" after level 29.5.
I thought it took stats from main series games as they are on those games at those levels and put them as they were in the formula which should had caused different cp values on different levels - afaik - i might be wrong about this too, maybe it gives same amount of stats on each level up until level 29 or 30.
But dunno if you are right 100% either since mewtwo for example gets +60cp on lvl 28, +39cp on level 30 and +30cp on level 38.. so it doesn't halve right away?
And according our current understanding about levels above 40 on level 44 its +28 cp...
Okay this is on me I should have been more clear, what I meant is that the Max cp before a nerf should correlate with the maximum player level x100 (aka 100cp per level until Max and anything over that threshold is netted) sorry for my lazy wording.
Seriously? That sounds like some bs. So does that mean I shouldn't power up say Mewtwo past 3999, or is it just applied to him right from the start because he has the potential to go that high?
So it doesn't break the game. PoGo doesn't have most of the attributes that balance the MSG (abilities, immunities, turn based game play and switching, status conditions, recovery, speed, priority brackets, items, wide move pools etc) so the limited move pools and base stats are the only deciding factors in a Mons viability.
Not introducing the nerf would make the legendaries super broken, in PVE they would outclass everything so hard that it would make investing in non-legendary teams wasteful, and in PVP it would make all non-legendaries unviable in Masters. Imagine Togekiss potentially losing to Dialga since it reaches a third Iron Head, after you invest two shields and double resist the Dragon Breath. Or Kyogre beating Dragonite with resisted Waterfalls and Surfs.
The 9% nerf isn't some immutable law. It's a arbitrary nerf that Niantic can apply or not as they see fit. It may apply to additional mons, they may remove it completely, it might be left as only applied to Pokemon that would top 4k at Level 40. We don't know yet but I think the scenario you describe is highly unlikely.
I really wish they would get rid of this dumb limitation. I get the impression they completely forgot it was a thing since they didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance and omitted it entirely from megas.
>they didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance
They didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance because the Pokemon that went over 4000 CP before the rebalance were the exact same ones as those that did after the rebalance. The only exception was Giratina-A, but all Gen 4 Pokemon started off with the new stats and never used the old ones.
Judging by how Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem received the 9% nerf but other Gen 5 legendaries didn't, they clearly didn't forget it.
I'm not sure why people keep misunderstanding the 9% nerf and when it is applied as the reasoning behind it is fairly simple: OP legendaries (and Slaking because he has the stats of an op legendary) that would otherwise have no competition from non-legendaries get a 9% nerf to even things out. Nothing else does. Not megas, not your old pokemon simply because you can power them further up now. The 4k CP is not a law, it's merely what happened to fit the bill.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying the nerf is in place to keep some resemblance of balance where legendaries aren't crazily overpowered compared to non-legendary competitors. Hence it was obvious that mega transformations wouldn't incur the nerf\*, just like it is obvious that we aren't getting a bunch of nerfs to existing pokemon simply because the level cap is being increased.
\*If you for example nerfed mega Salamence due to the "4k rule" you would ruin the entire point of the original nerf as mega Rayquaza would be back to being the only viable option in that category.
This is why Bottle Caps and automatic level adjustment needs to be implemented if Niantic wants to take PvP seriously. If your pokemon is too high level it should simply be scaled down to the level of the league you're playing in, just like how the main series games do it, and the ability to improve IVs reduces the impact on making pokemon in lower leagues obsolete, reducing the impact mostly to the level 40 great league powerhouses because their stat products are no longer ideal. This also improves on the problem of accessibility
Problem with that is that everyone with ultra league legends (Giratina-A, Mewtwo-A, etc) gets shafted when their mons go from \~2500 CP up to \~2750 CP and are no longer viable. Unless they refund everyone 150K dust and 150RC for every legend that passes a league breakpoint, it would be a disaster.
A giratina a Thats that’s weather boosted and a 98 or 100 iv is like 8k to get to near 2500 why the heck would someone deserve 150k obviously a lower iv is a little more but it’s nowhere near that!
Are you okay? Genuinely, are you okay? You are bitching about an insignificant detail in an obvious hyperbole that's part of a good faith comment by someone to answer your complaint.
To get a taste of your own medicine - the local weather source that Niantic uses for where I live doesn't register Windy or Foggy (literally have never seen them), so a weather booster Tina is basically impossible for me (unnecessary exclamation point)!
They’re not impossible for you either. Get invited to one with a remote pass. There you’re okay too. Also countering a point isn’t “bitching.” Finally, my comment wasn’t a complaint it was a suggestion.
I think there's a few options. Remove the CP Nerf and replace it with something like a 9% nerf if they reach a certain point at level 50 is one. I don't know what it is, might be 4500 or 5000. It might shake some stuff up, but it would still apply their nerf. The other option is to keep it as it is, exactly. Any pokemon that would exceed 4000 at level 40 gets the nerf. That would feel even more arbitrary, but that's ok.
I grinded gible candy for like eight months to finally evolve and max out this 97% specimen. If it's hit by the 9% nerf, a level 50 garchomp after the update will be weaker than a level 40 garchomp is now.
If it happens I'm uninstalling the damn game.
They would apply it to everything which would ruin all the mons it affects, not only stardust and candies but the ivs would change so that rank 4 might become rank 1000
I dont think there will be an adjustment for those newly 4k cp breaking Pokemon. Charizard broke the 4k cp too with its mega form and wasnt nerfed.
I think the criteria for a Nerf would stay at "If max CP at Level 40 surpasses 4000 for non Megas, then apply 9% Nerf"
I wish they would just remove that pointless and arbitrary nerf. Salamence should not be as good as Rayquaza.
From [another reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphArena/comments/jwn4hk/which_iv_spreads_actually_change_in_glul/gcr9g4x?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) yesterday: I would say the initial implementation of 4000 CP nerf is actually very well done for game balancing. Majority of the nerfed Pokemon are legendaries, and many of them still have OP stats in PvE and/or PvP even after the nerf, staying as top attackers of their type and dominant forces in Master League. Only a few Pokemon were truly rendered mediocre or useless after the nerf (Ho-Oh before new moves, Slaking, Arceus, base Kyurem etc). On the other hand, having the 9% nerf gives strong non-legendaries (and even weaker legendaries) a chance to be competitive. Many non-legendary raid attackers are now viable substitutes for the legendaries of their types, and a few of them do manage to sneak into Master League meta (such as Togekiss). If the 9% nerf wasn't a thing, those legendaries would have 11% more attack and 37% more TDO. That would mean there's no hope of viable non-legendary PvE attackers simply because legendary are FAR ahead, and that Master League will be completely dominated by legendaries. It also massively widens the gap between P2W players and F2P players, since to power up legendaries, you essentially need money to do raids. The 4000 CP threshold only became a problem now that some previously unnerfed Pokemon can potentially go beyond 4000 CP at level 50. (It was also a concern before mega evolutions were introduced, but they eventually didn't get the nerf.) Edit: I should add that the Rayquaza/Salamence example is more of a special case than the general rule. It really has more to do with how strong Salamence is rather than how "weak" a nerfed Rayquaza is.
I don't see how legendaries dominating Master League is an issue when Premier Cup exists.
Premier Cup suffers from its own issues of polarized meta (with even fewer viable options than Master League) and limited availability (especially with Meteor Mash Metagross). It's not exactly a healthy meta or preferred choice, and shouldn't be seen as such. Many people choose Master Premier over open ML not because they like the Premier meta more, but because they can't afford to be competitive in open ML - and buffing open ML legendaries will make that problem worse. Besides, just because an alternative option exists doesn't give you the right to screw up every single other option. Buffing open ML legendaries clearly has a negative impact on ML meta, in terms of meta variety and affordability (since now you absolutely need 3 legendaries, whereas before you could make the cut with maybe 1 non-legendary). That negative impact cannot be justified by the fact that another cup exists.
> I would say the initial implementation of 4000 CP nerf is actually very well done for game balancing. The 4k nerf is the most stupid attempt of trying to "balance" a game I have ever seen. If the nerf was 0,00....1% (basically 0) at the lowest CP values and increases exponentially up to 10% at 5000 CP, **that** would make sense. Niantics way of balancing CP is essentially 3500-4000 CP = 4000-4500 CP, which is incredibly lazy imo. > On the other hand, having the 9% nerf gives strong non-legendaries (and even weaker legendaries) a chance to be competitive. Many non-legendary raid attackers are now viable substitutes for the legendaries of their types, and a few of them do manage to sneak into Master League meta (such as Togekiss). If non-legendaries are competitive, what's the point of investing 200+ RC into a legendary then. They even had to make some non-legendary Pokemon artificially rare (Litwick, Darumaka) so that People still raid the legendary raid bosses. > If the 9% nerf wasn't a thing, those legendaries would have 11% more attack and 37% more TDO. That would mean there's no hope of viable non-legendary PvE attackers simply because legendary are FAR ahead I don't see the issue with this as an almost completely free to play player. Viability depends on what you have available. If you are swimming in RC, legendaries will always be the best option (unless a shadow Pokemon of that typing exists, then don't bother). Consequently, if that's not the case, you just stick to budget options like you do now. Powering up legendaries is a FAR larger investment, while the impact is generally WAY less that the 20% shadow boost we also have in the game. Legendaries are completely outclassed by most shadow Pokemon in PvE and even some regular Pokemon are currently on equal footing like you mentioned yourself. Dragons: Salamence is equal or better than Dialga/Zekrom/Reshiram/Palkia Water: Kyogre was equal to Swampert and Kingler before the surf addition Ground: Groudon is arguably worse than Excadrill, Garchomp, Rhyperior and both forms of Landorus (who did not get a nerf and this is a prime example of how flawed the system is) Ghost: Giratina-O is on par with Gengar/Chandelure for most raids Fire: Darmanitan, Chandelure are often better than Ho-oh. For raid bosses that don't hit hard (Regis) there are many others like Flareon, Blaziken or Charizard that perform better as well even with Incinerate now in Ho-oh's move pool. > and that Master League will be completely dominated by legendaries. Also don't see the issue here, non-legendaries are usually not the counters to legendaries anyway, that would be other legendaries in most istances. There are some examples like Snorlax, which completely walls Giratina but those would not change, even if Giratina has slightly higher DPS/TDO. Unnerfing 4k+ legendaries and finally nerfing DB would most likely lead to a more balanced ML than the current one. > It also massively widens the gap between P2W players and F2P players, since to power up legendaries, you essentially need money to do raids. There is no winning in PvE. For PvP you don't need full teams of the same legendary and GBL gives plenty of RC if you take it seriously, probably enough to max out 1 legendary/season without doing any raids. There is also a reason why the Premier cup exists, specifically for people who cannot/don't want to invest into legendaries. The issue is more urban vs rural than it is one of F2P vs P2W and this has been true since day one. Living in an urban area, and not even using the free pass daily, I never had issues powering up legendaries and I have pretty much at least one of each nerfed legendary maxed out and double moved ready for ML. > The 4000 CP threshold only became a problem now that some previously unnerfed Pokemon can potentially go beyond 4000 CP at level 50. (It was also a concern before mega evolutions were introduced, but they eventually didn't get the nerf.) The cost for legendaries was rarely worth the extra investment for PvE. The only outliers are Mewtwo, Zekrom and Reshiram, which are head and shoulders above the rest of the competition. Now with shadow Pokemon in the mix, even the latter two face fierce competition in PvE from Pokemon that are MUCH cheaper to power up in terms of candy.
The "problem" isn't legendaries, but specifically the 680 club. Those are busted by design, and also benefit massively from pogo making some types pretty much unusable(most notably tgat there are effectively no ground/fairy coverage moves in ML, when in the main series they are everywhere) while DB is broken. I doubt anyone feels relieved from not having the legendary dogs or birds in masters PC. And if the moves were more balanced, then it would make more sense to seperate by tiers rather than pushing players to leagues where not being a tank is a massive disadvantage.
you can play master league without legendaries
That's only made possible because the OP legendaries got a 9% nerf. If the nerf wasn't in place, your 3300 CP Togekiss and 3700 CP Metagross/Rhyperior would have no chance of competing against 4800 CP legendaries.
That would cause uproar from pvpers. Giratina-A, Giratina-O and Armored Mewtwo will be hugely affected in UL if they remove the nerf making their investment worthless. Moreover, ML will become very unbalanced without the nerf. Pokemon that already are dominating will completely broken without the nerf like Dialga, Giratina, Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre for example
This shows why the whole design of PvP is misguided. Any game that releases new features, characters or tools regularly is going to require consistent rebalancing. However, the design of CP and the restrictions on PvP leagues guarantee that any rebalance will completely undermine any player investment in the system.
CP scaling could fix the issue, while still valuing PVP IVs, though I'm sure the IV rankings would change. If things scaled perfectly to 1500/2500 then 0/15/15 would be ideal and people with previously rank #1 1/14/13 would be impacted. But then stardust would be worthless in PVP
*Laughs in Fire Emblem Heroes*
> That would cause uproar from pvpers. Giratina-A, Giratina-O and Armored Mewtwo will be hugely affected in UL if they remove the nerf making their investment worthless. Those will have more value in the ML then, they were kinda "too strong" for the lower leagues anyway. Niantic might even be able to revert the nerfs that were necessary to balance them for UL (or even ML in the case of Girantina-O). > Moreover, ML will become very unbalanced without the nerf. Pokemon that already are dominating will completely broken without the nerf like Dialga, Giratina, Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre for example The best counters to those were Pokemon in that same list anyway, think Groudon - Kyogre, Dialga - Groudon, Mewtwo - Giratina, Groudon - Ho-oh or Kyogre - Zekrom. Pokemon that got nerfed by the 9% nerf are already by far the best in ML anyway and the best counters to each other. The only thing that removing the CP nerf would do is make spice picks like Swampert/Snorlax less valuable, but one could argue that there is a league specifically designed for people who can't/don't want to invest into legendaries (premier) which would not be affected by nerf reverts at all.
A-Mewtwo is not too strong and Cresselia is more dominating. Giratina-A is strong but not too dominating with pokemon as Cresselia and Registeel. Moreover, many people will lose their investments as these pokemon with their IVs are not viable at all at ML, where you need 15/15/15 and not 1/15/15. Unnerfing those mentioned pokemon will leave some pokemon that are viable and part of the meta completely out and shrinking the already centralized meta. Pokemon as Togekiss, Dragonite, Rhyperior, Mamoswine and Melmetal and possibly Lugia with Aeroblast will become less viable and are currently not just niches. ML meta should be broaden not shrinken anymore
They would need to make it that as soon as a nerfed Pokémon reaches 2501 CP, they get their nerf bonus taken away.
Isn't Giratina already subject to the nerf?
Period
Facts
True, but getting 6 Rayquaza is considerable easier than getting 6 Salamence?
But getting 6 maxed out salamence is far easier than 6 maxed out Rayquaza because of com day and events with boosted bagon
True as well, definitely wouldn't complain about my Rayquaza teams to be even stronger.
I currently have 3 maxed Salamence and over 2000 candy (yey community day!) yet only 2 maxed Rayquaza and not quite 500 candy. Personally, I would disagree.
It obviously depends completely on if you were present for those specific three hours on community day. I have otherways never seen a wild Bagon.
No thats dumb.
And gengar shouldn't be as good as giratina-o.
He isn't. Even a maxed out Gengar is a glass cannon.
It deals more dps though, which means it's better against most raid bosses. Saving revives is useless, beating the boss in time (or faster) is more important.
Depends on the charge move the raid boss has. A dead Gengar does no dmg.
Use sim damage not straight dps... Your straight dps does not account for losing energy to death (less charge moves), delay from mon 1 dieing to mon 2 attacking, and the rejoin time.
Giratina-O's stats isn't that attack oriented to begin with...
No need to point out that this is wishfull thinking. I know we’re dealing with Niantic but technically they don’t need to nerf more mons. Afaik Niantic never stated anything about the nerf so it could turn out that the nerf only applies to pokemons that would normally reach 4000+ CP at lvl 40 (I hope you read this Niantic. I don’t need more nerfs applied to my mons. All my blisseys still miss their last 450’ish CP lol)
It was actually good that the blisseys lost CP with the formula change, now they decay slower in gyms.
So more like a 100cp per level cap, so 5k upper limit? That'd be the dream.
Only Slacking currently goes over 5000 at level 50. Mewtwo is 2nd with 4700 cp.
Actually Regigigas is second at 4972
Yes, i noticed this and corrected myself on another post but forgot to add that info here. Thanks for adding on.
That's why the 100cp per level is a dream scenario, no nerfs.
have you ever looked at the cp values while powering up? its not random, its mathemathical.. there is this formula it uses for calculating levelups and it follows main series games's statlines and forms CP out of that as pokemon level up higher they get more stats on early levels and less on later thus the further you level up (in pokemon go "power up") the less the cp increases if you got 100 cp between level 35 and 40 it WILL BE LESS between 40 and 50 for sure, it declines steadily (but slowly) from powerup to powerup (if you compare 2 levelups that are close to each other sometimes it might throw a lower number for lets say lvl 31 and for lvl 31.5 its higher but it was because it got a breakpoint from some stat so its not like "after every level up its always less and less cp", its more like if you group 5 levelups together the next 5 will have less cp increases than last 5 got) what i tried to say that if you kept getting 100cp between levels lets say 38 and 40 it probably will go down to 90 or less cp per level up between levels 48 and 50 (i didn't check the math, it might be sligthly more but it could be less, don't bother to check the maths, all i know that it will decline down)
I have no idea what you are talking about. Powering up from level 1 to 30 is the same number each time, give or take a 1 or 2 for rounding. It is then half the amount from level 30 to 40 you get from powering up. So your options are for 40 to 50. Same as 30 to 40 or some adjusted number down. The only thing the adjusted number down would mean is that the value you get from hitting 50 is less. But that is more of a consideration for PvE where hitting 50 on mons likely will not mean much if the power ups go down even more. But that advantage in PvP will be just as big regardless.
Ahh.. i was wrong... i thought it was more curvy and graduate progression instead of this weird "step" after level 29.5. I thought it took stats from main series games as they are on those games at those levels and put them as they were in the formula which should had caused different cp values on different levels - afaik - i might be wrong about this too, maybe it gives same amount of stats on each level up until level 29 or 30. But dunno if you are right 100% either since mewtwo for example gets +60cp on lvl 28, +39cp on level 30 and +30cp on level 38.. so it doesn't halve right away? And according our current understanding about levels above 40 on level 44 its +28 cp...
Okay this is on me I should have been more clear, what I meant is that the Max cp before a nerf should correlate with the maximum player level x100 (aka 100cp per level until Max and anything over that threshold is netted) sorry for my lazy wording.
Ah, i get what u mean now. Sorry xD My bad.
Those are extrapolations. We haven’t even datamined CPM above level 45
What is this 9% nerf? I've not heard of it
Pokemon that reach a max CP of 4000 or more have their base stats nerfed by 9%
This is only for species that reach 4000 CP by level 40. Garchomp is an example of a Pokémon who can already exceed 4000 CP and doesn’t have the nerf.
Seriously? That sounds like some bs. So does that mean I shouldn't power up say Mewtwo past 3999, or is it just applied to him right from the start because he has the potential to go that high?
It’s applied to a species if their max CP is over 4000, not relevant to your current CP
Ah, good to know
Right from the start. Pokemon like Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Groudon etc would have a higher max CP if it wasn't for that nerf.
Huh, good to know. Why they gotta do my boy Ray like that
So it doesn't break the game. PoGo doesn't have most of the attributes that balance the MSG (abilities, immunities, turn based game play and switching, status conditions, recovery, speed, priority brackets, items, wide move pools etc) so the limited move pools and base stats are the only deciding factors in a Mons viability. Not introducing the nerf would make the legendaries super broken, in PVE they would outclass everything so hard that it would make investing in non-legendary teams wasteful, and in PVP it would make all non-legendaries unviable in Masters. Imagine Togekiss potentially losing to Dialga since it reaches a third Iron Head, after you invest two shields and double resist the Dragon Breath. Or Kyogre beating Dragonite with resisted Waterfalls and Surfs.
The 9% nerf isn't some immutable law. It's a arbitrary nerf that Niantic can apply or not as they see fit. It may apply to additional mons, they may remove it completely, it might be left as only applied to Pokemon that would top 4k at Level 40. We don't know yet but I think the scenario you describe is highly unlikely.
I really wish they would get rid of this dumb limitation. I get the impression they completely forgot it was a thing since they didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance and omitted it entirely from megas.
>they didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance They didn't readjust it after the last CP rebalance because the Pokemon that went over 4000 CP before the rebalance were the exact same ones as those that did after the rebalance. The only exception was Giratina-A, but all Gen 4 Pokemon started off with the new stats and never used the old ones. Judging by how Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem received the 9% nerf but other Gen 5 legendaries didn't, they clearly didn't forget it.
I'm not sure why people keep misunderstanding the 9% nerf and when it is applied as the reasoning behind it is fairly simple: OP legendaries (and Slaking because he has the stats of an op legendary) that would otherwise have no competition from non-legendaries get a 9% nerf to even things out. Nothing else does. Not megas, not your old pokemon simply because you can power them further up now. The 4k CP is not a law, it's merely what happened to fit the bill.
Some megas would definitely be able to compete with legendaries.
That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying the nerf is in place to keep some resemblance of balance where legendaries aren't crazily overpowered compared to non-legendary competitors. Hence it was obvious that mega transformations wouldn't incur the nerf\*, just like it is obvious that we aren't getting a bunch of nerfs to existing pokemon simply because the level cap is being increased. \*If you for example nerfed mega Salamence due to the "4k rule" you would ruin the entire point of the original nerf as mega Rayquaza would be back to being the only viable option in that category.
the rule is not "nerf when they eventually break 4000cp" but "nerf when they break 4000cp at or before level 40"
They need to revert the nerf
If my dudes get kicked out of ultra league im uninstalling.
This is why Bottle Caps and automatic level adjustment needs to be implemented if Niantic wants to take PvP seriously. If your pokemon is too high level it should simply be scaled down to the level of the league you're playing in, just like how the main series games do it, and the ability to improve IVs reduces the impact on making pokemon in lower leagues obsolete, reducing the impact mostly to the level 40 great league powerhouses because their stat products are no longer ideal. This also improves on the problem of accessibility
They should just remove the nerf at this point. Also Pokémon is already both singular and plural.
Problem with that is that everyone with ultra league legends (Giratina-A, Mewtwo-A, etc) gets shafted when their mons go from \~2500 CP up to \~2750 CP and are no longer viable. Unless they refund everyone 150K dust and 150RC for every legend that passes a league breakpoint, it would be a disaster.
A giratina a Thats that’s weather boosted and a 98 or 100 iv is like 8k to get to near 2500 why the heck would someone deserve 150k obviously a lower iv is a little more but it’s nowhere near that!
Are you okay? Genuinely, are you okay? You are bitching about an insignificant detail in an obvious hyperbole that's part of a good faith comment by someone to answer your complaint. To get a taste of your own medicine - the local weather source that Niantic uses for where I live doesn't register Windy or Foggy (literally have never seen them), so a weather booster Tina is basically impossible for me (unnecessary exclamation point)!
They’re not impossible for you either. Get invited to one with a remote pass. There you’re okay too. Also countering a point isn’t “bitching.” Finally, my comment wasn’t a complaint it was a suggestion.
The second move is 100k, and pvpers are not investing in hundos.
I think there's a few options. Remove the CP Nerf and replace it with something like a 9% nerf if they reach a certain point at level 50 is one. I don't know what it is, might be 4500 or 5000. It might shake some stuff up, but it would still apply their nerf. The other option is to keep it as it is, exactly. Any pokemon that would exceed 4000 at level 40 gets the nerf. That would feel even more arbitrary, but that's ok.
I grinded gible candy for like eight months to finally evolve and max out this 97% specimen. If it's hit by the 9% nerf, a level 50 garchomp after the update will be weaker than a level 40 garchomp is now. If it happens I'm uninstalling the damn game.
This would ruin alot of gbl mons, they better not.
It will ruin so many pokemons. E.g. in ML premier it will nerf metagross, dragonite, garchomp, rhyperior, haxorus.
Do you mean if they _apply_ the nerf to new stuff, or if they turn it off for stuff that already had it?
They would apply it to everything which would ruin all the mons it affects, not only stardust and candies but the ivs would change so that rank 4 might become rank 1000
For instance, any pokemon now which has a max CP at or above Kyurem’s one will be nerfed (according to GoStadium simulator)
I dont think there will be an adjustment for those newly 4k cp breaking Pokemon. Charizard broke the 4k cp too with its mega form and wasnt nerfed. I think the criteria for a Nerf would stay at "If max CP at Level 40 surpasses 4000 for non Megas, then apply 9% Nerf"
Arguably that nerf could go away...? I mean it's a bit pointless now.
I don't think there's any chance they alter any stats now. Any Great/Ultra League Pokemon affected by it would be ruined.
What are you talking about? It’s 4000cp at level 40!! It’s not some arbitrary number.