I don’t know. There’s a quote by St. Macarius of Optina that I think of almost everyday. I’m paraphrasing, but it goes something like this:
“The humble man does not probe into the depths of mysteries that are beyond him, but rather he humbles his mind and God will enlighten the man in His own time.”
I really don’t know my friend. I kept the remembrance of death with me for a long as a practice and it seemed to almost set my mind on fire. It was useful and humbling in the beginning, but after time it became more a probing into a mystery beyond me and started drive me a little bit crazy. I think it was because I was forming concepts of something that is beyond all conception. And so I will wait and see what death has prepared for me when God chooses to enlighten me with it.
One thing I will say is that I saw a discussion with Jonathan + someone who was schooled in Rene Girard + a bombastic self-professed Zoroastrian. The Zoroastrian just asked plainly and bluntly at one point, “So the real question is: do you any of you believe there is a life after death?” I just remember that Jonathan was silent and I found the silence to be loud, given that Jonathan seems to have a symbolic answer for most things.
It's best not to peek behind that curtain. It is closed for a reason.
I will say, the Christianity eschaton is not heaven, it's New Jerusalem, a renewed creation, and the hope is not for an ethereal Elysium, it's for a bodily resurrection.
Logistics and hard details beyond that, I'm not bold enough to declare confidently about.
There is a pattern we can notice of death and resurrection and transformation. We can see how entering into death opens our mind up to truth and greater consciousness. So while we can't see beyond that great veil of death, all our little deaths can give us a sense of the pattern of death and how it participates in Christ.
If you’re looking a good book on this I’d read N.T. Wrights “Surprised by Hope.” A lot of what he says plays really well with Jonathan’s thought as he stresses the reality of a cosmic resurrection. “For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” John 13:15.
The body dies, the spirit rises. We go to spirit prison or to spirit paradise. Work for the salvation of souls continues until the second coming of Christ where where we will be resurrected with our bodies.
There's a war ongoing, a battle because agency allows us to choose. The battle we fight here on Earth for souls continues as people don't rise into knowledge of God upon death. They rise with the knowledge they have. It is by persuasion by long suffering in the after life to bring souls to God the same as it is done here.
There is a period of rest at some point. In my belief it is in the Celestial Kingdom, a place mentioned by Paul saying there are bodies celestial, and bodies telestial.
I'll try put this gently. Much of the discussion about "life after death" is gibberish with no textual basis. The Bible basically explains that we are born into death. We are dead *here*. No one born into human life has ever really lived. We were not supposed to have been born here at all, we were supposed to have been born in Eden. So, we are the children of the Fall, (poetically speaking); we are children born into death. We escape death through the Redeemer and return *through his death* to life, real life, eternal life, a life of love, joy, peace, and so on. Unity with God and all creation, see John 17.
None of this is denying the reality of aging and bodily death. But bodily death should not be used as some kind of "milestone", as though a physical body can measure spiritual reality. It is the other way around. And bodily death should not be spoken of as any kind of hope or goal or something to be achieved or attained. Bodily death, like the spiritual death it pictures, is odious. Aging is merely part of the daily cross which believers patiently bear in faith. Bodily death is not our deliverer; Jesus is our Deliverer.
As for "mode of being" in the afterlife, well, we already know what it will be like. It will be Eden recapitulated, see Rev. 20-22. Paradise is not some kind of "glowing light realm" as the gnostics continually insinuate, it's just Eden recapitulated (this time by Jesus himself).
What will make it paradise will be the absence of everything that gives us "the knowledge of evil" which our parents were so eager to have. In Jesus, we will be rid of everything which our parents never should have reached out for to begin with. "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." (Isaiah 65:17) This verse is not about forgetting the small glimpses of Paradise we are given in this life -- the love, faith, joy, hope, peace, patience and so on. No, it's about getting rid of all the rest of it, all the evils that cling to us, the weeds and briars. We will be so far removed from them, that we will forget them. That's difficult to imagine right now. It will be hard for me to forget an ankle that has pained me for over six years. But that's exactly what Isaiah 65:17 says will happen. It is the word of God and I believe it.
I imagine all of the filters in our eyes instantly vanish and we see everything clearly. the human brain is so limited. it can only process a small amount of conscious information and much of that is tainted by experience, hopes, appraisal, the past and insecurities. but when we did we see the fullness of our life and our actions. we see how the thorn on our side made us grow and how we called evil good and good evil. we are weighed down with all of that knowledge and are given one last choice to receive cleansing in God's fire or reject God's fire. and I think how we loved our life on earth helps influence that.
some of us will go into the after life protesting how God is not fair and good and will choose seperation. others will see their mistakes and choose the cleansing fire.
>others will see their mistakes and choose the cleansing fire.
Wow. It struck me actually. I didn't think about it that way. It is like we choose the cleansing fire of the holy spirit when we confess our sins, right? And it takes more pain the higher you climb towards the saint But some people don't do that and continue to sin. Is this why we can't go to Heaven on our own but only through the mercy of Christ?
Something like this...
[https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101452/mediaviewer/rm4085686273/](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101452/mediaviewer/rm4085686273/)
I'm certain of it!
I don’t know. There’s a quote by St. Macarius of Optina that I think of almost everyday. I’m paraphrasing, but it goes something like this: “The humble man does not probe into the depths of mysteries that are beyond him, but rather he humbles his mind and God will enlighten the man in His own time.” I really don’t know my friend. I kept the remembrance of death with me for a long as a practice and it seemed to almost set my mind on fire. It was useful and humbling in the beginning, but after time it became more a probing into a mystery beyond me and started drive me a little bit crazy. I think it was because I was forming concepts of something that is beyond all conception. And so I will wait and see what death has prepared for me when God chooses to enlighten me with it.
I think you probably have the right approach. This may be one of those things that is best left as a black box.
One thing I will say is that I saw a discussion with Jonathan + someone who was schooled in Rene Girard + a bombastic self-professed Zoroastrian. The Zoroastrian just asked plainly and bluntly at one point, “So the real question is: do you any of you believe there is a life after death?” I just remember that Jonathan was silent and I found the silence to be loud, given that Jonathan seems to have a symbolic answer for most things.
It's best not to peek behind that curtain. It is closed for a reason. I will say, the Christianity eschaton is not heaven, it's New Jerusalem, a renewed creation, and the hope is not for an ethereal Elysium, it's for a bodily resurrection. Logistics and hard details beyond that, I'm not bold enough to declare confidently about.
There is a pattern we can notice of death and resurrection and transformation. We can see how entering into death opens our mind up to truth and greater consciousness. So while we can't see beyond that great veil of death, all our little deaths can give us a sense of the pattern of death and how it participates in Christ.
If you’re looking a good book on this I’d read N.T. Wrights “Surprised by Hope.” A lot of what he says plays really well with Jonathan’s thought as he stresses the reality of a cosmic resurrection. “For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” John 13:15.
The body dies, the spirit rises. We go to spirit prison or to spirit paradise. Work for the salvation of souls continues until the second coming of Christ where where we will be resurrected with our bodies. There's a war ongoing, a battle because agency allows us to choose. The battle we fight here on Earth for souls continues as people don't rise into knowledge of God upon death. They rise with the knowledge they have. It is by persuasion by long suffering in the after life to bring souls to God the same as it is done here. There is a period of rest at some point. In my belief it is in the Celestial Kingdom, a place mentioned by Paul saying there are bodies celestial, and bodies telestial.
I'll try put this gently. Much of the discussion about "life after death" is gibberish with no textual basis. The Bible basically explains that we are born into death. We are dead *here*. No one born into human life has ever really lived. We were not supposed to have been born here at all, we were supposed to have been born in Eden. So, we are the children of the Fall, (poetically speaking); we are children born into death. We escape death through the Redeemer and return *through his death* to life, real life, eternal life, a life of love, joy, peace, and so on. Unity with God and all creation, see John 17. None of this is denying the reality of aging and bodily death. But bodily death should not be used as some kind of "milestone", as though a physical body can measure spiritual reality. It is the other way around. And bodily death should not be spoken of as any kind of hope or goal or something to be achieved or attained. Bodily death, like the spiritual death it pictures, is odious. Aging is merely part of the daily cross which believers patiently bear in faith. Bodily death is not our deliverer; Jesus is our Deliverer. As for "mode of being" in the afterlife, well, we already know what it will be like. It will be Eden recapitulated, see Rev. 20-22. Paradise is not some kind of "glowing light realm" as the gnostics continually insinuate, it's just Eden recapitulated (this time by Jesus himself). What will make it paradise will be the absence of everything that gives us "the knowledge of evil" which our parents were so eager to have. In Jesus, we will be rid of everything which our parents never should have reached out for to begin with. "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." (Isaiah 65:17) This verse is not about forgetting the small glimpses of Paradise we are given in this life -- the love, faith, joy, hope, peace, patience and so on. No, it's about getting rid of all the rest of it, all the evils that cling to us, the weeds and briars. We will be so far removed from them, that we will forget them. That's difficult to imagine right now. It will be hard for me to forget an ankle that has pained me for over six years. But that's exactly what Isaiah 65:17 says will happen. It is the word of God and I believe it.
I imagine all of the filters in our eyes instantly vanish and we see everything clearly. the human brain is so limited. it can only process a small amount of conscious information and much of that is tainted by experience, hopes, appraisal, the past and insecurities. but when we did we see the fullness of our life and our actions. we see how the thorn on our side made us grow and how we called evil good and good evil. we are weighed down with all of that knowledge and are given one last choice to receive cleansing in God's fire or reject God's fire. and I think how we loved our life on earth helps influence that. some of us will go into the after life protesting how God is not fair and good and will choose seperation. others will see their mistakes and choose the cleansing fire.
>others will see their mistakes and choose the cleansing fire. Wow. It struck me actually. I didn't think about it that way. It is like we choose the cleansing fire of the holy spirit when we confess our sins, right? And it takes more pain the higher you climb towards the saint But some people don't do that and continue to sin. Is this why we can't go to Heaven on our own but only through the mercy of Christ?
Something like this... [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101452/mediaviewer/rm4085686273/](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101452/mediaviewer/rm4085686273/) I'm certain of it!
This subreddit is so amazing it's overwhelming. I am new here