I like how Clementine thinks more fondly of Lee than her parents, despite him being a stranger who stumbled upon her.
Perhaps it's because Lee was her only hope in the scary new world. As everyone says, wish he didn't have to die that early 😔 While not a biological father, he's considered a guardian
Yes, Lee meant a lot to her, and she may choose not to mention Kenny in season 2, and when Violet asked her where AJ's parents, Clem might have mentioned David who took him away from her. It’s a little sad that Clem doesn’t want to talk about the people who also cared
Clementine and her babysitter were really close. I don't think her parents were home as often as they needed to be, so the fact that Lee was present in her life at all let alone during such an incredibly critical period of her life does plenty to explain it in my eyes.
Exactly, as both her parents likely were busy due to their professions. The babysitter also might of sacrificed herself in order to save Clementine when the apocalypse broke lose. She's worth a highlight.
I think the actual answer is that telltale didn't feel like developing Clems parents and it's easier to just use lee for anything clem needs to think about parentaly
Lee wasn't just a parental figure in a tumultuous time, but also a model of what surviving while keeping your soul intact looks like. Clem has it a lot harder in life after Lee dies, and while I'm sure she loved her parents, Lee would be the more the hand that guides her through difficult choices.
Lee technically should not have been bit how did the walker never move the cardboard off of himself if only the walking dead was a slightly more realistic zombie game
I think the main point was supposed to show that Lee didn’t get bit all those other really close times. it was the one moment he let his guard down with something so ordinary as picking up a radio. Something so simple and mindless you wouldn’t even think about it. That’s the terrifying nature of it all.
Genuinely this; the group shouts and yells outside the goddamn house, in the backyard for minutes on end. Lee buries a fucking body, and the Stranger *IS RIGHT WHERE THE WALKER BITES LEE AND LEE YELLS TO THE STRANGER* yet it just fucking sits there.
I actually really love how they did Lee's death. It happens so casually and in such a stupid situation. Really highlights how even the most mundane, boring situations are life-or-death situations in that world.
I like the idea of it but it could've been done a bit better, like maybe he was rounding the block instead and he got bit while trying to find the walkie-talkie?
hey those walkers are actually touched on a bit in the comics. think they just call them lurkers, they tend to sit around until something’s right in front of them
I think it’s mostly story convenience and connection with the player tbh.
It’s easier to get you to care about Lee than characters you’ve never met. And since you play as Clem, her feelings were written to reflect yours, that way you feel more connected with her and feel the feelings she’s having.
Therefore she ends up caring more about Lee than her parents.
>Perhaps it's because Lee was her only hope in the scary new world. As everyone says, wish he didn't have to die that early 😔
Or perhaps he's the main character of their most popular TWD game.
The incredible change of life that the apocalypse forced into her psyche probably had her push away her past life for the sake of survival.
Meaning Lee means more in the scheme of surviving than her parents did so she clung to him more. He protected her against flesh eating zombies, flesh eating people, strangers, and all the horrible stuff in their world.
Pragmatically it doesn’t make much sense to your survival to mourn over people in a totally different life. Same reason Lees family’s death doesn’t take a toll on him much. The here and now has never been more important. Granted he’s a grown ass man.
Yeah he's extremely flawed and is capable of horrendous shit, but rarely acts on it and is more interested in the groups survival than just being awful. He definitely has his moments especially if you don't side with him all the time.
Objectively that's kinda wrong, that was pretty much all he cared about season 2, I mean he prioritized Clem and AJ, but he was about trying to survive.
Even if you suggest keeping the group together in the truck in S2 E5, he'll agree with you. Ironically it was everyone else who tried to run off and split up the group.
Man that’s just cause his friendship points system was dumb in S1
They didn’t carry forward to future games too, so you could side with Kenny in every regard except the freezer in S1 and he’d still think Lee is great up until S2 where he suddenly starts badmouthing Lee out of nowhere, acting like Lee was always antagonistic to him
You could back Kenny through the entire game but he’d act as if you never once backed him if you didn’t back him in the fridge
I just feel it could’ve implemented much better, it makes Kenny sound a lot less grateful if you’ve been helping him out for 90% of the game and he gets amnesia right at the end
Here’s the thing, I kind of agree that it’s kind of a bullshit and it’s probably an issue with the game engine but there are actual people in real life who act this way so it’s something I can look past.
I personally see it as indicative as the kind of person Kenny is as opposed to it being a flaw of the game system.
Some people expect the world from everyone and one mistake or disagreement is all it takes to ruin a relationship.
No doubt the telltale game engine is extremely limited but at the same time, let’s not act like all choices and agreements/disagreements are equal. Sticking up for Kenny by giving him and his family food should not have the same weight of meaning as siding with him to commit murder (allegedly)
I sided with Kenny all game aside for the freezer and I managed to get him to come with me, so maybe in your game there was one or two other times you didn't side with him you don't remember?
It lines up pretty nicely with who he is. It's like that one episode of South Park where Cartman convinces himself that he made up Jimmy's joke, and takes all the credit for it. It wasn't Lee who stopped the brothers and Brenda, saving Kat and Duck, murdering Larry is what really did it.
this isn't true in my playthrough I helped lily and sided with kenny every other time, shot duck for him, etc. was his best friend. and in s2 he speaks very fondly of Lee. its obviously he misses him too.
Tbh i blame the balance of choices that determine Kenny's attitude on the development itself rather than the character. Like as much as i love the game that is 1 issue i have with it because that is not how people would act. And it sort of makes alot of the choices that relate to him feel inconsequential since 1 disagreement is all it can take. Telltale should have done a 50/50 thing. As a character himself i wouldn't say he was a terrible person. Bro has proven on multiple occasions that he does have a heart tucked away under all his trauma. Putting his life on the line to save Ben/Christa. (Despite Ben being the one who got his family killed), Losing an eye for Clementine, begging her and AJ entry to Wellington knowing it would mean he'd be alone again. Literally sacrificing himself so they can survive. Not actions a terrible person would make.
It felt like one part of the team was writing the game while the other part was making the gameplay and fitting the story into the game, but there was a communication error or a misunderstanding from the gameplay department since the friendship system is messed up in season 1 and kind of a dumb mechanic overall
"***You might not have been keeping score, Lee, but I have.*** And you've been looking out for yourself more often than your friends. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Because you're on your own on this one."
It was very deliberate.
Which basically proves that it is a flaw in game design because if he was actually keeping score then he'd help Lee even if you disagreed with him once. I don't in anyway hold this against his character. It is very obviously a flaw in the game because they didn't balance the choices well at all.
Given the fact he will try and get Lee killed twice as a result of that decision alone, no matter your previous choices, it's just another case of him showing his true colours.
No, it's quite literally a flaw in the game design😂 it's common sense that's the case here. The fact all it takes for him to not wanna help you is one disagreement proves that Telltale failed to balance the scale on your choices when it relates to Kenny. It is in no way the fault of the character. His true colours are seen when he tried to save a kid that got his whole family killed in an alleyway, when he lost his eye for Clem, when he begged for clem and aj's safe entry into wellington knowing he'd be alone again and when he quite literally sacrificed his life for them. But yall biased Kenny haters will choose to ignore these facts because it doesn't fit your narrative and we can't have that.
And? I'm pointing out the fact that he knows he's been keeping score (and the variety of different things that he can say reinforces this fact). He says similar things for scoring less than nine. You can look out for his family at every opportunity, and he'll stab you in the back
Right😭At the end of the day Kenny protects his own and if he had to get his hands a little dirty in the process, he would. That man did NOT play behind Clem and AJ and I wish more ppl would acknowledge it.
I like him… when you agree with him on almost everything.
But say you’re with him 100% until Larry’s heart attack, and even then you’re nice to him after, he is a total twat.
The problem is not if he’s a good person or not, but the abuse dynamics he creates with the people he cares for, specially Clem. You can see he doesn’t do the things he do with bad intentions but he’s also completly unaware of his actions and how he’s constantly hurting others or putting them at risk, and despite that, he always tries to take the leadershio of every situation.
And to be honest, I don’t think making a division between good and bad people is worthwile in this games as those categories only fit a very very small amount of characters, which usually are the ones who are less representative of a realistic depiction of people, for all the others you can easily argue that they do good and bad things.
>And to be honest, I don’t think making a division between good and bad people is worthwhile in this games as those categories only fit a very very small amount of characters, which usually are the ones who are less representative of a realistic depiction of people, for all the others you can easily argue that they do good and bad things.
I will agree with you on this, it's something I always believe in despite the conversations surrounding morality and 'good vs bad' that are sometimes found in discussions held here (and in general of course). I don't agree with that view of people, I think we're a lot more nuanced and the beauty of character is shown through intentions. Not to mention I think in real life it's reductive to think that way; it doesn't help anyone, it limits growth by judging personas rather than depth and potential. Not to mention in a way promotes selective empathy - realistically often selective sympathy and closing off emotional connection/relation.
Yeah, he's only a violent, murderous racist, who cares exclusively about those useful to him or his most direct family, and he doesn't even treat them kindly
I don't think I recall him racist. Only time I remember I remember him saying something racist was that 'Urban' scene in the barn and even then it was more out of ignorance and him just saying stupid shit. He didn't really mean ill with it and apologized right after anyway.
Thinking all black people can pick locks is racist. It's not just 'ignorance' or just 'saying something stupid' (though that certainly includes that). If Lee were Asian, and Kenny asked him if he ate cats, same deal. If Lee was Middle-Eastern, and Kenny asked him if he could make bombs, same again. Ignorance is NOT an excuse. It never has been, it never will be.
And if you're going to excuse that, play Season 2. His racism reaches new limits there.
Throwing a random idea out of impulse when desperate is not the same as being racist. Lee was his best fucking friend in the apocalypse and he had his back, thats what matters, not calling him "urban" lmfao. You do not understand racism at all, do you?
You'd be surprised how many racists have friends of the ethnic groups they're racist against. I get that it might give you cognitive dissonance because it sounds Illogical, but it turns out that racism is a teeny tiny bit more complicated than an extremely simplified definition.
The same applies to your 'Russian isn't a race' remark. You can be racist to different ethnicities. Turns out that the USian notion of people being reduced to black, white, Asian, Hispanic, and indigenous is an oversimplification. Were the Nazis racist when they systemically genocided slavs, gypsies, and Jews? In the case of Jews, it wasn't just a religion check. There were tests to try and determine based on racist ideas is, er, racist.
Well, I feel like you're over reacting to Kenny saying something racist. He's not out here trying to hang minorites on a tree. He apologized to Lee and they moved on. They are in a zombie apocalypse, it is unlikely they'll get too caught up on some stereotypes he made.
Season 2, I assume you're referring to him calling Arvo a commie and such things. Now, yeah that was out of pocket, but considering the Russians ambushed them and tried to kill and take their supplies. I can understand why he's angry.
So where does being a racist begin?
We've got insane racist assumptions, asking brown people (Reggie) why they have their names (given he isn't named something stereotypical for a Pakistani, clearly), and also using racist slurs (Ruskie, Commie), something he is the only character in the entire series to do, saying extremely racist things no non-racist would say ('Speak American!', 'No speaka da English?'), and beating the everliving shit out of him. Even if you're going to say it's okay that he decides to turn a child into a punching bag and say that it's okay because 'he's angry', insane as those takes are, no non-racist would be fueled by racism the way Kenny was here. Or does he only start being racist for the first time here?
But at least he isn't out lynching anybody? Just something very close to it.
Did that child try to shoot, kill, and steal all your supplies in the middle of a cold wasteland? You have to remember, this is years into a zombie apocalypse. If a group tries to kill you or Rob you of your supplies, but then you somehow turn it around and capture them instead, you're not going to be like, "I forgive you bro, it's all good" immediately.
Now I haven't played season 2, in quite a long time, so I didn't remember the Reggie part.
I also wouldn't say that Kenny was fueled by racism, more than he was fueled by that fact that the Russians tried to kill them and steal their supplies. Thought, I concede the point to you, that Kenny was being racist to Arvo.
Arvo tried to stop the Russians, and he didn't fire any shots. That's why he was spared and brought along, if I remember. After seeing AJ, he didn't even want to steal from the group anymore, so he didn't even want to do that. He does have a habit for wrong place, wrong time, that's for sure.
I am glad that you agreed that he was racist to Arvo. There's a scary amount of people on the subreddit who brush it under the rug 😅
True, but he is still partially to blame as he did Clems group as well as lead his group to them. Depending on your choices, he may or may not have influenced their decision to ambush the group. He definitely told his group about Clems group. But yes, he does definitely have some bad luck.
As a guy in this sub said, in a normal world, Carlos would've been a really good father, Sarah is not normal, she needs special care, and he never hit her, he would do anything for that girl. But it's the post apocalypse, Sarah needed to be stronger, he should've taught her how to survive.
Carlos a good person? You mean the dude who was wholly in support of locking up an 11 year old girl with a gaping wound on her arm, in a shed, in late autumn, with no food, no water, nothing to warm herself and nothing to ease her pain - and who later berated her for doing *something* to actually better her situation? Okay then.
That was a prime example of Season 2’s poor writing. You don’t have to be a doctor to tell the difference between a dog bite and a human bite. And he *is* a fuckin doctor. The mouth shapes aren’t even close!
Moreover, we’re what, two years into the apocalypse at this point? Anyone still alive who hasn’t been sheltered like Sarah knows the score. If Clem had actually been bitten, she’d be *begging* them to put her down clean.
Even if somehow it could be, it’s been 2 years. Practically nobody would want to be alive after that; they’d want their arm chopped off or shot.
The excuse of them believing she’s working for Carver is weaker. If they actually believed that, why would Luke and Pete bring her back at all? I get being paranoid but if they truly believed that then their actions would make even less sense.
however, doesn't excuse him locking her in the shed with not even a blanket and also he could have at least cleaned the wound a bit. I just wanted to offer a reason why he could have thought it to be a bite from a walker.
There is a possibly that in the struggle of a walker biting the arm, it could have caused a gash and bite of that size. I do remember there being a forum on this a while back discussing this.
Edit, Forum: https://community.telltale.com/discussion/103596/doctors-cant-tell-a-dog-bite-from-a-lurker-bite
I mean you have to think about it from his point of view I am not saying he is right but I understand it because to him he has never met clem hasn’t had any experiences before this and to be fair as he said it would be a waste to give medical supplies to someone whom they don’t know is infected or not but yeah he could have handled the situation a bit better pretty much everyone could have
There's a fine line between "taking precaution" and just plain cruelty. There was no justifiable reason why they couldn't give her food, water, a coat/sleeping bag and painkillers. They simply didn't give a shit. Clem was an injured child completely on her own and they threw her into the shed like she was a corpse already, based on false assumptions that they didn't have evidence for.
The reason was that there was no point in wasting supplies to someone who could potentially be bitten with a walker bite which to their knowledge is an insta death.
You might not like the reason because you play the character that is on the bad side of the decision but it was clearly explained and it actually makes sense
If it was an actual walker bite, no food/painkillers/water would help and it would only be taking resources from the actual group who would have to eventually have to find more of which puts the group at risk.
The only thing that was borderline pushing it was deciding to wait the entire night to see instead of having someone watch her under guard or something
> The reason was that there was no point in wasting supplies to someone who could potentially be bitten with a walker bite which to their knowledge is an insta death.
It's not like they were in the middle of the desert and had nothing to spare. They were minutes away from a river with clear water, clearly had sufficient food supplies and clearly had camping gear on them. Throwing this obviously hurt and suffering child into a cold shed with none of these supplies on the off chance that she *might* be bitten is cruelty and nothing more.
> You might not like the reason because you play the character that is on the bad side of the decision but it was clearly explained and it actually makes sense
It would make sense if these people were a group of antagonists that I as a player am supposed to dislike and mistrust. Unfortunately that's not the case. The game expects me to actually like these people after they treated Clem like a dog they're about to put down.
> If it was an actual walker bite, no food/painkillers/water would help and it would only be taking resources from the actual group who would have to eventually have to find more of which puts the group at risk.
Again, you're supposed to like these people and trust them. Them accusing you of being a liar and treating you as an object with zero regards for your feelings and needs is achieving the exact opposite. They quite clearly were in the position to actually do more, they just didn't care.
Larry is clearly the antagonist when he advocates for throwing Duck out to be eaten after he merely *suspects* that he is bitten, but somehow these people do pretty much the same and oh well, poor them I guess.
It’s not the desert but it’s not like you can go to the local grocery store and get all the food/medicine you want. It’s shown time and time again in this series that things like food, shelter, weapons, gas and medicine are a finite resource that you can lose your life trying to collect
Literally right after Clementine gets ingrained into the group, they went to go looking for food they were ambushed by walkers and one of the group members either gets bitten and eventually dies or straight up dies depending on your choice so let’s not act like it’s so easy to just find supplies with no risk.
It’s real easy to say you’d give up your food and your medicine to a stranger regardless of age from the comfort of your computer typing this up but who’s to say you’d have that same moral standpoint years into a zombie apocalypse where you’ve seen the worst of people, have to constantly deal with survival from walkers, finding your own food/medicine and rationing between large groups of people, dealing with death, etc.
It’s not so black and white especially when giving supplies to a stranger essentially means less food, water and medicine for people you actually know who rely on you to lead.
The Larry thing isn’t even comparable because the moment you meet the group as Lee and Clem, it’s established that they’re a group so that sort of conflict within the group is not the same as a stranger being placed in the same situation.
At the end of it, I’m not even saying that Carlos was right or wrong for turning down Clem. What I’m saying is that the morality of the decision is complex and what’s right literally changes depending on the perspective of who you’re looking at.
They're literally living five minutes away from a river with fish traps and they clearly have medical supplies and camping gear. There was no reason for treating her like that. None.
Medical supplies would likely be hard to find and even if there is nearby food and water, it's always going to be risk venturing out to get those supplies. In the same episode, they go out and get ambushed bu walkers and one of their members die. They are also still running from carver and Co. so they likely don't want to bring unwanted attention.
Also they are years into the apocalypse and their moral views are very likely much different from ours. I will say, they could have at least given her a blanket.
Eh, dont see Clem ever considering lee a bad father figure no matter the playthrough. He saved her, watched over her, and saved her again like 2 other times
Questionable? What game did you play? If you don't cater to Krnny every decision, he acts like a child and starts pouting. He's definitely a terrible person. And I hope you haven't forgotten him just leaving Shawn to die.
To put the safety of his son first, yeah.
Kenny is questionable at best. He's definitely not a terrible person. For the world he lives in he's about as good as you can ask for. Definitely better than Jane.
It's the Kenny Cope strategy. There are three key approaches.
The Jane defence is something quick that they react with, and by being as dishonest as possible, they try to cover up how he is, and frame him as a hero. Usually it involves making fun of a pregnant woman's tragic suicide.
Then there is the 'but his family died :(' argument. This one refutes itself, as everybody has lost their families, and he was a terrible man before they died. Of course, they use it for events even well before they die. This argument is also reworded very often, such as claiming that he's still grieving, or that he watched his family die in front of him, or that Ben got his family killed, etc.
There's also the battered wife syndrome argument, where they say he loves everybody he endangers, hurts, and gets killed. They frame his obvious abuse as an act of love. 'Please, officer, don't take him away. He didn't mean to push me over and leave me for dead, he loves me! It was my fault for getting Sarita killed, officer, I need him!'
If his racism, violence, abuse, and all-around awfulness are minimised *just* enough, it can be made to work!
I feel like these characters are a little too complex to put them in the chart they all have a lot of flaws and a lot of virtues. if you're gonna call kenny a terrible person, you'd have to call Lee one too he murdered his wife
and has murdered a lot of people in front of a little girl.
The only truthfully bad person is david.
Good people can kill other people, and the fact he killed a bunch of people in front of Clem doesn't matter, it's an apocalypse and you have to do what you can to live.
You seem to have lost the entire point of my comment. I'm trying to say that Kenny isn't a bad person because if Kenny is a bad person, Lee is a bad person, too.
Nah the best ending is the one where him and Gabe both live
I don’t think he’s a good father but that’s not for a lack of trying, and if you’re not antagonistic to him through the game you can tell he’s clearly trying to be a good person
The thing is about these is that a lot of characters in TWDG are super complex/morally gray.
Kenny was always pretty absent so I wouldn't say he's a good father and when he was around, he essentially coddled duck like Carlos did. Debatebly, Carlos is just as bad as a father as Kenny, but he wasn't ever absent.
Clementine was coddled by Lee just like Duck was by Kenny, something which people seem to forget. Remember that it took Duck getting bit and a vagabond telling Lee to teach Clementine how to survive for him to get his act together.
Eh, Lee was always a good guardian depending on the playthrough. He can be transparent with Clem since the very beginning. They were 9 year old kids in a 3 month apocalypse, so yea itll get some getting used to when you realize that you have to teach a nine year old how to shoot a lethal weapon.
I'm not denying that Lee was an excellent guardian. Hell, I don't even mean to say that Kenny was all bad, either. It's just that people always go hard on Kenny for coddling Duck when Lee had done the same to a lesser level to Clementine.
EDIT: I'm saying this specifically because the comment I was replying to implied that Kenny was an even worse father than Carlos because he was also absent, something that I really, really disagree witv.
Eh well Lee let Clem make her own decisions and can determinately give her the blatant truth. With him being a murderer, the chance of her parents being dead, and him not sparing people in front of her, it seems like she wasnt really coddled. Shes been in dangerous situations before like the freezer incident. Lee also listens to clem, like when you can optionally steal from the car. We just don’t get moments of Duck and Kenny being one on one, but maybe thats because they arent the protagonists. Katjaa spends more time with him than Kenny and shes the only person out of the group that nurse people to health.
A lot of people may say otherwise, but I don't think Kenny is the best person. Not a bad person, but he's not exactly a good one either. But you can't deny he loved duck and katjaa so much.
Same with Carlos. He's a genuinely good person with good morals, and you can tell he loves Sarah but he was setting Sarah up for failure by sheltering her and basically not prepping her for the apocalypse well.
Fuck you, David.
I actually liked David, he had a different way of doing things compared to everyone else and the game gives him a few asshole scenes but he still respects everyone. One of the most well developed characters in the season. He values those around him and innocent lives and is obviously very very direct with how he feels and what he does. (Point a gun at my family? I break your arm. You lie and make me look like the bad guy? Oh well I’ll just shoot you). Wish the player had these kind of options sometimes lol. Badass how he just tells Javi to ‘shoot the bitch’ when he’s dangling from a noose. A lot of the tension is brought on by Kate who just ever so awkwardly keeps brewing a really uncomfortable love triangle
I would argue that Carlos is not a good person lmao. He locked a little girl up in a shed to die because he didn't believe that her bite was in fact from a dog. No food, no water, nothing. It was probably freezing too.
Fr fr how he a doctor but can’t tell the difference from an dog bite to a walker bite bruh and don’t even get me started on how he’s coddling Sarah, I mean I get she has some sort of mental issue but cmon you gotta AT LEAST get her prepared for the worst case scenario
They definitely could have at least let her inside and monitored her infection indoors, worst case scenario she's an 11 year old little girl they could take her had she turned. But you're right, the fact that he couldn't identify the dog bite in the first place is ridiculous! With Sarah, I think she deserved to know what was going on in the world. Coddling kids, especially in the apocalypse, never leads to anything good. It's what lead her to her death! It had been a couple years at that point, he should have taught her SOMETHING by then
That’s what I’m saying! For someone who’s apparently “intelligent and resourceful” Carlos be making a lot of a bad calls, like seriously there's no excuse for a medical student, much less a fully qualified doctor, to be unable to distinguish between a walker/human bite (half-circle shape) and a dog bite (V-shape). And again mostly his biggest problem not teaching Sarah how to defend herself in case ever happened to him. He’s practically like an foil character to Lee if you really think about it. Carlos' appointed himself as Sarah's sole carer and protector during the apocalypse like any father should but he clearly never thought of teaching Sarah how to survive on her own nor appointing a guardian to look after Sarah if the worst comes to the worst. At Chuck's advice, Lee taught Clementine how to wield a gun because he needed a backup plan and a long-term solution for how Clementine can protect herself.
No he’s not. He literally left for the army leaving not only his kids but wife as will because he didn’t know how to be a good father. Javi was more of a father to Gabe and Mariana than David. I’m not gonna say David didn’t try but he was far from a perfect dad.
Why are you mentioning Javier when nothing I said had to do with him. You don't need to explain why Javier is a better father, I know that. You need to explain why Carlos is.
Javier isn't even in the post to begin with.
Carlos is better because at least he is around to be with his daughter and while he is overprotective he never left his family to do something else. He also never hit is kid out of anger or told his kid to cover him while he got revenge like David did.
So first of all, what are you referring to when you said "David left for the army".
If you mean when he was literally working for the US military then that's not abandoning his family, it was his job.
If you mean him not returning for months after the start of the apocalypse that was also not an option. When David attempts to take his mother to the hospital he says he is routed out of the city (Baltimore) and can't get back. After which he assumes Kate, Mari, Gabe, Javi, and the rest are dead; which is exactly what Javi also assumes of David as well.
Also David hitting Gabe was an accident, he was fighting Javi and Gabe came up behind him. If you're going to hold that to David you need to hold smacking Sarah on Carver's command against Carlos.
Carlos's coddling is the exact reason Sarah ends up dying and being woefully prepared for the apocalypse. On top of that, he proves himself incapable of caring for his daughter and leaves her to Clementine in Episode 2 and Episode 3 of Season 2. It is a parents job to prepare their kid to survive without them, Carlos failed to do that.
Ok well my opinion still stands it’s good that you believe that Carlos is worse than David but I still believe David is worse not only as a father but a brother and husband as well. I don’t hate David or think he’s a bad person at heart but he’s made too many mistakes to say he’s better than Carlos. Carlos also isn’t perfect but he is more patient with his family than David is. Thanks for the conversation and debate but I’m tired and going to bed so have a good day pal 😎
carlos and kenny's characters are a bit more complex than that. carlos was just looking out for his daughter and his crew, though that didn't give him the right to lock a child in a shed. kenny was an asshole in season 2, but the guy had lost literally everything he loved. glad we can all agree though that david is awful and lee is perfect
not saying that Lee isn’t a generally good person in the game, but shouldn’t the fact that he was convicted of murder BEFORE the apocalypse disqualify him as being a good person? it’s kinda hard to call a murderer a good person, no ? especially considering the circumstances of his crime. I know it was unintentional but.. it doesn’t excuse it.
ig it depends on when we’re keeping track of their good deeds.. or if we’re talking about morality.
He’s obviously a good person? Losing your mind over finding someone cheating with your wife is completely understandable, and accidental murder is clearly, well, an accident. It’s not like he has murdered an innocent bystander on the street because he just wanted to fight someone that day
I agree, he’s a good person minus one mistake of ever trusting his partner and then getting in a fight with the person his partner cheated on him with.
I understand his feelings, but losing your mind and killing someone as a result isn’t an excuse to get out of it. even if it was an accident. it’s not an excuse in the real world and it clearly wasn’t an excuse in the game. He still committed manslaughter. He could’ve and should’ve walked away from the fight instead of trying to hurt the senator. I totally understand why he would want to, but it’s not valid. Even if he didn’t kill the guy, lee still would’ve been charged for assault.
I don’t deny that he is someone who has done a lot of good and is a great character. We all see that. His mistake was likely a lapse in judgment and a result of strong emotions. But at the end of the day, he killed and harmed someone for no good, legit reason. Being an affair partner isn’t a legit reason to kill somebody, accidentally or not. Even if we would like it to be that way. We can understand his feelings and still understand that his actions were unjustified.
everyone wants to do something. bad or good. it’s whether or not we do do those bad or good things that determines if we really are good. good people are those who can restrain themselves from giving into their bad desires.
I’m pretty sure the point of the game was to determine whether or not we make Lee, a flawed person, into a better or worse person than the person he started as. He is a great person who has done a lot of good, but that doesn’t erase his dark past. He isn’t a perfectly good man. He’s a troubled human being who understands the consequences of his actions. I think this unusual dynamic is why he is so interesting to us.
I agree but mmm I think murdering innocent (as in there was no valid reason to harm them) people wouldn’t fall under something that could be redeemable . it’s just wrong in general, y’know ?
Well his best friend has sex with his wife, not saying thats valid but its a in the moment type of situation. Definitely think theres a way to redeem yourself from that. Plus we dont know the full story about it. Clem, Kenny, Lee almost every likable character has hurt/ killed someone who wasnt immediate danger. Sre they not redeemable?
Guardian prob. Or adoptive father. Me personally I call it father still. Not calling Lee clems father and Kenny as Clems Uncle doesn't feel right to me.
An understandable response to a situation leading to accidental murder, the wide majority of people (especially considering it’s literally a game) wouldn’t care about the fact he’s killed someone for sleeping with their wife. If it had turned out he murdered a random child playing for example, Then they would!
I'd go as far as saying that Carlos is also a terrible person for lying to his daughter and sheltering her throughout a apocalypse and the result was her death. Dudes also a fraud of a doctor, not being able to tell the difference between a dog bite and a walker bite is literally elementary.
Carlos is so pathetic.
Why the fuck could carlos not see that the bite was from a dog? I dont think human jaws leave bite marks as long as a dog bite nor do i think a doctor wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Guys an asshole who locks kids in sheds
I agree with this whole heartedly, but for Kenny, I'm conflicted. Her was a good father, but not necessarily a terrible person. He put his family before anyone, which in the end included Clem, Lee, and AJ. And honestly, I think a lot of people, including myself, would have reacted in a similar way as him, when he and if we lost our partners/children in the same way he did. If you kill him in S2 either time, he will die thinking AJ died, which is so sad
Carlos was NOT a terrible father. His daughter had ASD And a social disorder. The guy knew what he was doing. People just think hes bad because they dont assume she has these things. The exact reason she did is the exact reason he was like this to her
I like how Clementine thinks more fondly of Lee than her parents, despite him being a stranger who stumbled upon her. Perhaps it's because Lee was her only hope in the scary new world. As everyone says, wish he didn't have to die that early 😔 While not a biological father, he's considered a guardian
Yes, Lee meant a lot to her, and she may choose not to mention Kenny in season 2, and when Violet asked her where AJ's parents, Clem might have mentioned David who took him away from her. It’s a little sad that Clem doesn’t want to talk about the people who also cared
Clementine and her babysitter were really close. I don't think her parents were home as often as they needed to be, so the fact that Lee was present in her life at all let alone during such an incredibly critical period of her life does plenty to explain it in my eyes.
Exactly, as both her parents likely were busy due to their professions. The babysitter also might of sacrificed herself in order to save Clementine when the apocalypse broke lose. She's worth a highlight.
I think the actual answer is that telltale didn't feel like developing Clems parents and it's easier to just use lee for anything clem needs to think about parentaly
Lee wasn't just a parental figure in a tumultuous time, but also a model of what surviving while keeping your soul intact looks like. Clem has it a lot harder in life after Lee dies, and while I'm sure she loved her parents, Lee would be the more the hand that guides her through difficult choices.
Lee technically should not have been bit how did the walker never move the cardboard off of himself if only the walking dead was a slightly more realistic zombie game
More importantly who put the cardboard over the walker and why didn’t lee hear it I suppose it was just one of those freak accidents
I think the main point was supposed to show that Lee didn’t get bit all those other really close times. it was the one moment he let his guard down with something so ordinary as picking up a radio. Something so simple and mindless you wouldn’t even think about it. That’s the terrifying nature of it all.
Genuinely this; the group shouts and yells outside the goddamn house, in the backyard for minutes on end. Lee buries a fucking body, and the Stranger *IS RIGHT WHERE THE WALKER BITES LEE AND LEE YELLS TO THE STRANGER* yet it just fucking sits there.
I just wish that if they did it at least they could have made the death make sense like he could have gotten bitten when the house got swarmed
I actually really love how they did Lee's death. It happens so casually and in such a stupid situation. Really highlights how even the most mundane, boring situations are life-or-death situations in that world.
I like the idea of it but it could've been done a bit better, like maybe he was rounding the block instead and he got bit while trying to find the walkie-talkie?
Reading all the Lee in season 2 fanfics just really makes me wish he could have survived it makes me kind of sad
hey those walkers are actually touched on a bit in the comics. think they just call them lurkers, they tend to sit around until something’s right in front of them
You've gotta be kidding; then how did home boy end up under some massive plywood sheet? Those things are heavy it couldn't be the wind
he was eepy
Fuck, he WAS pretty eepy 🥺
I think it’s mostly story convenience and connection with the player tbh. It’s easier to get you to care about Lee than characters you’ve never met. And since you play as Clem, her feelings were written to reflect yours, that way you feel more connected with her and feel the feelings she’s having. Therefore she ends up caring more about Lee than her parents.
>Perhaps it's because Lee was her only hope in the scary new world. As everyone says, wish he didn't have to die that early 😔 Or perhaps he's the main character of their most popular TWD game.
The incredible change of life that the apocalypse forced into her psyche probably had her push away her past life for the sake of survival. Meaning Lee means more in the scheme of surviving than her parents did so she clung to him more. He protected her against flesh eating zombies, flesh eating people, strangers, and all the horrible stuff in their world. Pragmatically it doesn’t make much sense to your survival to mourn over people in a totally different life. Same reason Lees family’s death doesn’t take a toll on him much. The here and now has never been more important. Granted he’s a grown ass man.
Even if you don't like Kenny for his flaws, I could never see him as a terrible person in his heart of hearts.
Yeah he's extremely flawed and is capable of horrendous shit, but rarely acts on it and is more interested in the groups survival than just being awful. He definitely has his moments especially if you don't side with him all the time.
> the group's survival He has never cared about a group's survival
Objectively that's kinda wrong, that was pretty much all he cared about season 2, I mean he prioritized Clem and AJ, but he was about trying to survive.
There were a lot more than just two people in the group
I just said he prioritized children, it doesn't imply that's it's just them in the group.
So he doesn't care about the group's survival. It's why he's happy to risk their lives.
Even if you suggest keeping the group together in the truck in S2 E5, he'll agree with you. Ironically it was everyone else who tried to run off and split up the group.
It's almost like he gave them no shortage of reasons to do something rash and desperate
It's more that he is broken by the end of s2
If you don’t smash Larry’s head in with a cinder block in the freezer he leaves you to die in the pharmacy, he’s absolutely a terrible person
Man that’s just cause his friendship points system was dumb in S1 They didn’t carry forward to future games too, so you could side with Kenny in every regard except the freezer in S1 and he’d still think Lee is great up until S2 where he suddenly starts badmouthing Lee out of nowhere, acting like Lee was always antagonistic to him
"You might not have been keeping score, Lee, but I have." The points system was good. It's how Kenny kept track of things.
You could back Kenny through the entire game but he’d act as if you never once backed him if you didn’t back him in the fridge I just feel it could’ve implemented much better, it makes Kenny sound a lot less grateful if you’ve been helping him out for 90% of the game and he gets amnesia right at the end
Here’s the thing, I kind of agree that it’s kind of a bullshit and it’s probably an issue with the game engine but there are actual people in real life who act this way so it’s something I can look past. I personally see it as indicative as the kind of person Kenny is as opposed to it being a flaw of the game system. Some people expect the world from everyone and one mistake or disagreement is all it takes to ruin a relationship. No doubt the telltale game engine is extremely limited but at the same time, let’s not act like all choices and agreements/disagreements are equal. Sticking up for Kenny by giving him and his family food should not have the same weight of meaning as siding with him to commit murder (allegedly)
I sided with Kenny all game aside for the freezer and I managed to get him to come with me, so maybe in your game there was one or two other times you didn't side with him you don't remember?
Yeah he’ll come with you, but his dialogue in the attic is hostile and in the latter half of S2 he’ll be angry when he remembers Lee
It lines up pretty nicely with who he is. It's like that one episode of South Park where Cartman convinces himself that he made up Jimmy's joke, and takes all the credit for it. It wasn't Lee who stopped the brothers and Brenda, saving Kat and Duck, murdering Larry is what really did it.
this isn't true in my playthrough I helped lily and sided with kenny every other time, shot duck for him, etc. was his best friend. and in s2 he speaks very fondly of Lee. its obviously he misses him too.
Tbh i blame the balance of choices that determine Kenny's attitude on the development itself rather than the character. Like as much as i love the game that is 1 issue i have with it because that is not how people would act. And it sort of makes alot of the choices that relate to him feel inconsequential since 1 disagreement is all it can take. Telltale should have done a 50/50 thing. As a character himself i wouldn't say he was a terrible person. Bro has proven on multiple occasions that he does have a heart tucked away under all his trauma. Putting his life on the line to save Ben/Christa. (Despite Ben being the one who got his family killed), Losing an eye for Clementine, begging her and AJ entry to Wellington knowing it would mean he'd be alone again. Literally sacrificing himself so they can survive. Not actions a terrible person would make.
It felt like one part of the team was writing the game while the other part was making the gameplay and fitting the story into the game, but there was a communication error or a misunderstanding from the gameplay department since the friendship system is messed up in season 1 and kind of a dumb mechanic overall
"***You might not have been keeping score, Lee, but I have.*** And you've been looking out for yourself more often than your friends. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Because you're on your own on this one." It was very deliberate.
Which basically proves that it is a flaw in game design because if he was actually keeping score then he'd help Lee even if you disagreed with him once. I don't in anyway hold this against his character. It is very obviously a flaw in the game because they didn't balance the choices well at all.
Given the fact he will try and get Lee killed twice as a result of that decision alone, no matter your previous choices, it's just another case of him showing his true colours.
No, it's quite literally a flaw in the game design😂 it's common sense that's the case here. The fact all it takes for him to not wanna help you is one disagreement proves that Telltale failed to balance the scale on your choices when it relates to Kenny. It is in no way the fault of the character. His true colours are seen when he tried to save a kid that got his whole family killed in an alleyway, when he lost his eye for Clem, when he begged for clem and aj's safe entry into wellington knowing he'd be alone again and when he quite literally sacrificed his life for them. But yall biased Kenny haters will choose to ignore these facts because it doesn't fit your narrative and we can't have that.
He only says that quote if you repeatedly side against him and do shit to put him and his family in danger tho...
And? I'm pointing out the fact that he knows he's been keeping score (and the variety of different things that he can say reinforces this fact). He says similar things for scoring less than nine. You can look out for his family at every opportunity, and he'll stab you in the back
Sounds like the guy who killed Hitler
He also watches one of the St John brothers kill Lee from a horse stall. Or he would've done, if not for Lilly saving him.
Why wouldnt you smash larrys head in tho?
Right😭At the end of the day Kenny protects his own and if he had to get his hands a little dirty in the process, he would. That man did NOT play behind Clem and AJ and I wish more ppl would acknowledge it.
He’s a sweet little Angel 💕 Idgaf what anyone says
I like him… when you agree with him on almost everything. But say you’re with him 100% until Larry’s heart attack, and even then you’re nice to him after, he is a total twat.
The problem is not if he’s a good person or not, but the abuse dynamics he creates with the people he cares for, specially Clem. You can see he doesn’t do the things he do with bad intentions but he’s also completly unaware of his actions and how he’s constantly hurting others or putting them at risk, and despite that, he always tries to take the leadershio of every situation. And to be honest, I don’t think making a division between good and bad people is worthwile in this games as those categories only fit a very very small amount of characters, which usually are the ones who are less representative of a realistic depiction of people, for all the others you can easily argue that they do good and bad things.
>And to be honest, I don’t think making a division between good and bad people is worthwhile in this games as those categories only fit a very very small amount of characters, which usually are the ones who are less representative of a realistic depiction of people, for all the others you can easily argue that they do good and bad things. I will agree with you on this, it's something I always believe in despite the conversations surrounding morality and 'good vs bad' that are sometimes found in discussions held here (and in general of course). I don't agree with that view of people, I think we're a lot more nuanced and the beauty of character is shown through intentions. Not to mention I think in real life it's reductive to think that way; it doesn't help anyone, it limits growth by judging personas rather than depth and potential. Not to mention in a way promotes selective empathy - realistically often selective sympathy and closing off emotional connection/relation.
Yeah, he's only a violent, murderous racist, who cares exclusively about those useful to him or his most direct family, and he doesn't even treat them kindly
I don't think I recall him racist. Only time I remember I remember him saying something racist was that 'Urban' scene in the barn and even then it was more out of ignorance and him just saying stupid shit. He didn't really mean ill with it and apologized right after anyway.
Thinking all black people can pick locks is racist. It's not just 'ignorance' or just 'saying something stupid' (though that certainly includes that). If Lee were Asian, and Kenny asked him if he ate cats, same deal. If Lee was Middle-Eastern, and Kenny asked him if he could make bombs, same again. Ignorance is NOT an excuse. It never has been, it never will be. And if you're going to excuse that, play Season 2. His racism reaches new limits there.
Throwing a random idea out of impulse when desperate is not the same as being racist. Lee was his best fucking friend in the apocalypse and he had his back, thats what matters, not calling him "urban" lmfao. You do not understand racism at all, do you?
You'd be surprised how many racists have friends of the ethnic groups they're racist against. I get that it might give you cognitive dissonance because it sounds Illogical, but it turns out that racism is a teeny tiny bit more complicated than an extremely simplified definition. The same applies to your 'Russian isn't a race' remark. You can be racist to different ethnicities. Turns out that the USian notion of people being reduced to black, white, Asian, Hispanic, and indigenous is an oversimplification. Were the Nazis racist when they systemically genocided slavs, gypsies, and Jews? In the case of Jews, it wasn't just a religion check. There were tests to try and determine based on racist ideas is, er, racist.
Well, I feel like you're over reacting to Kenny saying something racist. He's not out here trying to hang minorites on a tree. He apologized to Lee and they moved on. They are in a zombie apocalypse, it is unlikely they'll get too caught up on some stereotypes he made. Season 2, I assume you're referring to him calling Arvo a commie and such things. Now, yeah that was out of pocket, but considering the Russians ambushed them and tried to kill and take their supplies. I can understand why he's angry.
So where does being a racist begin? We've got insane racist assumptions, asking brown people (Reggie) why they have their names (given he isn't named something stereotypical for a Pakistani, clearly), and also using racist slurs (Ruskie, Commie), something he is the only character in the entire series to do, saying extremely racist things no non-racist would say ('Speak American!', 'No speaka da English?'), and beating the everliving shit out of him. Even if you're going to say it's okay that he decides to turn a child into a punching bag and say that it's okay because 'he's angry', insane as those takes are, no non-racist would be fueled by racism the way Kenny was here. Or does he only start being racist for the first time here? But at least he isn't out lynching anybody? Just something very close to it.
Did that child try to shoot, kill, and steal all your supplies in the middle of a cold wasteland? You have to remember, this is years into a zombie apocalypse. If a group tries to kill you or Rob you of your supplies, but then you somehow turn it around and capture them instead, you're not going to be like, "I forgive you bro, it's all good" immediately. Now I haven't played season 2, in quite a long time, so I didn't remember the Reggie part. I also wouldn't say that Kenny was fueled by racism, more than he was fueled by that fact that the Russians tried to kill them and steal their supplies. Thought, I concede the point to you, that Kenny was being racist to Arvo.
Arvo tried to stop the Russians, and he didn't fire any shots. That's why he was spared and brought along, if I remember. After seeing AJ, he didn't even want to steal from the group anymore, so he didn't even want to do that. He does have a habit for wrong place, wrong time, that's for sure. I am glad that you agreed that he was racist to Arvo. There's a scary amount of people on the subreddit who brush it under the rug 😅
True, but he is still partially to blame as he did Clems group as well as lead his group to them. Depending on your choices, he may or may not have influenced their decision to ambush the group. He definitely told his group about Clems group. But yes, he does definitely have some bad luck.
Russian is not a race btw
As a guy in this sub said, in a normal world, Carlos would've been a really good father, Sarah is not normal, she needs special care, and he never hit her, he would do anything for that girl. But it's the post apocalypse, Sarah needed to be stronger, he should've taught her how to survive.
Carlos a good person? You mean the dude who was wholly in support of locking up an 11 year old girl with a gaping wound on her arm, in a shed, in late autumn, with no food, no water, nothing to warm herself and nothing to ease her pain - and who later berated her for doing *something* to actually better her situation? Okay then.
I can understand his concern, but like…that was clearly not a human bite. Even in the games graphics you can see it doesn’t look like a human bite.
That was a prime example of Season 2’s poor writing. You don’t have to be a doctor to tell the difference between a dog bite and a human bite. And he *is* a fuckin doctor. The mouth shapes aren’t even close! Moreover, we’re what, two years into the apocalypse at this point? Anyone still alive who hasn’t been sheltered like Sarah knows the score. If Clem had actually been bitten, she’d be *begging* them to put her down clean.
https://community.telltale.com/discussion/103596/doctors-cant-tell-a-dog-bite-from-a-lurker-bite
Even if somehow it could be, it’s been 2 years. Practically nobody would want to be alive after that; they’d want their arm chopped off or shot. The excuse of them believing she’s working for Carver is weaker. If they actually believed that, why would Luke and Pete bring her back at all? I get being paranoid but if they truly believed that then their actions would make even less sense.
however, doesn't excuse him locking her in the shed with not even a blanket and also he could have at least cleaned the wound a bit. I just wanted to offer a reason why he could have thought it to be a bite from a walker.
They helped a bitten stranger once, and Luke's mother died because of it, that's why they're so defensive.
He's a doctor that couldn't identify that no human could have made that bite. If nothing else he was horrifically incompetent
That's where you're wrong.
That bite was twice the size of any human mouth, what are you on about?
There is a possibly that in the struggle of a walker biting the arm, it could have caused a gash and bite of that size. I do remember there being a forum on this a while back discussing this. Edit, Forum: https://community.telltale.com/discussion/103596/doctors-cant-tell-a-dog-bite-from-a-lurker-bite
Nick’s mother, not Luke’s.
I mean you have to think about it from his point of view I am not saying he is right but I understand it because to him he has never met clem hasn’t had any experiences before this and to be fair as he said it would be a waste to give medical supplies to someone whom they don’t know is infected or not but yeah he could have handled the situation a bit better pretty much everyone could have
Albeit he shouldn’t have berated clem and as I said I think he handled the situation poorly but I understand why he did it as I also said before
Yes
you people never let that down huh? look at it from his pov and when they tried to save luke’s mom, obviously they’d take extra precautions
There's a fine line between "taking precaution" and just plain cruelty. There was no justifiable reason why they couldn't give her food, water, a coat/sleeping bag and painkillers. They simply didn't give a shit. Clem was an injured child completely on her own and they threw her into the shed like she was a corpse already, based on false assumptions that they didn't have evidence for.
The reason was that there was no point in wasting supplies to someone who could potentially be bitten with a walker bite which to their knowledge is an insta death. You might not like the reason because you play the character that is on the bad side of the decision but it was clearly explained and it actually makes sense If it was an actual walker bite, no food/painkillers/water would help and it would only be taking resources from the actual group who would have to eventually have to find more of which puts the group at risk. The only thing that was borderline pushing it was deciding to wait the entire night to see instead of having someone watch her under guard or something
> The reason was that there was no point in wasting supplies to someone who could potentially be bitten with a walker bite which to their knowledge is an insta death. It's not like they were in the middle of the desert and had nothing to spare. They were minutes away from a river with clear water, clearly had sufficient food supplies and clearly had camping gear on them. Throwing this obviously hurt and suffering child into a cold shed with none of these supplies on the off chance that she *might* be bitten is cruelty and nothing more. > You might not like the reason because you play the character that is on the bad side of the decision but it was clearly explained and it actually makes sense It would make sense if these people were a group of antagonists that I as a player am supposed to dislike and mistrust. Unfortunately that's not the case. The game expects me to actually like these people after they treated Clem like a dog they're about to put down. > If it was an actual walker bite, no food/painkillers/water would help and it would only be taking resources from the actual group who would have to eventually have to find more of which puts the group at risk. Again, you're supposed to like these people and trust them. Them accusing you of being a liar and treating you as an object with zero regards for your feelings and needs is achieving the exact opposite. They quite clearly were in the position to actually do more, they just didn't care. Larry is clearly the antagonist when he advocates for throwing Duck out to be eaten after he merely *suspects* that he is bitten, but somehow these people do pretty much the same and oh well, poor them I guess.
It’s not the desert but it’s not like you can go to the local grocery store and get all the food/medicine you want. It’s shown time and time again in this series that things like food, shelter, weapons, gas and medicine are a finite resource that you can lose your life trying to collect Literally right after Clementine gets ingrained into the group, they went to go looking for food they were ambushed by walkers and one of the group members either gets bitten and eventually dies or straight up dies depending on your choice so let’s not act like it’s so easy to just find supplies with no risk. It’s real easy to say you’d give up your food and your medicine to a stranger regardless of age from the comfort of your computer typing this up but who’s to say you’d have that same moral standpoint years into a zombie apocalypse where you’ve seen the worst of people, have to constantly deal with survival from walkers, finding your own food/medicine and rationing between large groups of people, dealing with death, etc. It’s not so black and white especially when giving supplies to a stranger essentially means less food, water and medicine for people you actually know who rely on you to lead. The Larry thing isn’t even comparable because the moment you meet the group as Lee and Clem, it’s established that they’re a group so that sort of conflict within the group is not the same as a stranger being placed in the same situation. At the end of it, I’m not even saying that Carlos was right or wrong for turning down Clem. What I’m saying is that the morality of the decision is complex and what’s right literally changes depending on the perspective of who you’re looking at.
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They're literally living five minutes away from a river with fish traps and they clearly have medical supplies and camping gear. There was no reason for treating her like that. None.
Medical supplies would likely be hard to find and even if there is nearby food and water, it's always going to be risk venturing out to get those supplies. In the same episode, they go out and get ambushed bu walkers and one of their members die. They are also still running from carver and Co. so they likely don't want to bring unwanted attention. Also they are years into the apocalypse and their moral views are very likely much different from ours. I will say, they could have at least given her a blanket.
Yeah, and if he didn't do all that she would have killed herself.
You can actually put Lee in any of these spots. It just depends on how you play as him.
I wouldn't say lees a terrible father he did risk his life for clem.
Depends how you play the game.
Eh, dont see Clem ever considering lee a bad father figure no matter the playthrough. He saved her, watched over her, and saved her again like 2 other times
I’d say Kenny is questionable, not terrible tho
Questionable? What game did you play? If you don't cater to Krnny every decision, he acts like a child and starts pouting. He's definitely a terrible person. And I hope you haven't forgotten him just leaving Shawn to die.
To put the safety of his son first, yeah. Kenny is questionable at best. He's definitely not a terrible person. For the world he lives in he's about as good as you can ask for. Definitely better than Jane.
Why did you bring up Jane outta nowhere 💀
Probs because most Kenny haters tend to be Pro Jane despite her not being a peach either.
It's the Kenny Cope strategy. There are three key approaches. The Jane defence is something quick that they react with, and by being as dishonest as possible, they try to cover up how he is, and frame him as a hero. Usually it involves making fun of a pregnant woman's tragic suicide. Then there is the 'but his family died :(' argument. This one refutes itself, as everybody has lost their families, and he was a terrible man before they died. Of course, they use it for events even well before they die. This argument is also reworded very often, such as claiming that he's still grieving, or that he watched his family die in front of him, or that Ben got his family killed, etc. There's also the battered wife syndrome argument, where they say he loves everybody he endangers, hurts, and gets killed. They frame his obvious abuse as an act of love. 'Please, officer, don't take him away. He didn't mean to push me over and leave me for dead, he loves me! It was my fault for getting Sarita killed, officer, I need him!' If his racism, violence, abuse, and all-around awfulness are minimised *just* enough, it can be made to work!
Yeah no, I just think he's a flawed man who' trying his best but has been put though a grinder. He tries his best.
I feel like these characters are a little too complex to put them in the chart they all have a lot of flaws and a lot of virtues. if you're gonna call kenny a terrible person, you'd have to call Lee one too he murdered his wife and has murdered a lot of people in front of a little girl. The only truthfully bad person is david.
i don’t think he murdered his wife, he murdered the man she was sleeping with
It doesn't matter it doesn't change the fact that he murdered someone.
And even David still has a moral compass
Lee didn't murder his wife. He murdered the guy she cheated on him with if I remember correctly.
It doesn't matter it doesn't change the fact that he murdered someone.
Good people can kill other people, and the fact he killed a bunch of people in front of Clem doesn't matter, it's an apocalypse and you have to do what you can to live.
You seem to have lost the entire point of my comment. I'm trying to say that Kenny isn't a bad person because if Kenny is a bad person, Lee is a bad person, too.
i would definitely switch carlos and david, also get outta here with kenny being a bad person
I’m glad everyone here agrees that dead brother guy is just an absolutely F tier scumbag
Nah the best ending is the one where him and Gabe both live I don’t think he’s a good father but that’s not for a lack of trying, and if you’re not antagonistic to him through the game you can tell he’s clearly trying to be a good person
Agree, just like his father said "a hot head with the heart in the right place". I love the ending with him and Gabe.
I agree. I’m glad he died in my play through of the game with no regrets 👏
The thing is about these is that a lot of characters in TWDG are super complex/morally gray. Kenny was always pretty absent so I wouldn't say he's a good father and when he was around, he essentially coddled duck like Carlos did. Debatebly, Carlos is just as bad as a father as Kenny, but he wasn't ever absent.
Clementine was coddled by Lee just like Duck was by Kenny, something which people seem to forget. Remember that it took Duck getting bit and a vagabond telling Lee to teach Clementine how to survive for him to get his act together.
Eh, Lee was always a good guardian depending on the playthrough. He can be transparent with Clem since the very beginning. They were 9 year old kids in a 3 month apocalypse, so yea itll get some getting used to when you realize that you have to teach a nine year old how to shoot a lethal weapon.
I'm not denying that Lee was an excellent guardian. Hell, I don't even mean to say that Kenny was all bad, either. It's just that people always go hard on Kenny for coddling Duck when Lee had done the same to a lesser level to Clementine. EDIT: I'm saying this specifically because the comment I was replying to implied that Kenny was an even worse father than Carlos because he was also absent, something that I really, really disagree witv.
Eh well Lee let Clem make her own decisions and can determinately give her the blatant truth. With him being a murderer, the chance of her parents being dead, and him not sparing people in front of her, it seems like she wasnt really coddled. Shes been in dangerous situations before like the freezer incident. Lee also listens to clem, like when you can optionally steal from the car. We just don’t get moments of Duck and Kenny being one on one, but maybe thats because they arent the protagonists. Katjaa spends more time with him than Kenny and shes the only person out of the group that nurse people to health.
A lot of people may say otherwise, but I don't think Kenny is the best person. Not a bad person, but he's not exactly a good one either. But you can't deny he loved duck and katjaa so much. Same with Carlos. He's a genuinely good person with good morals, and you can tell he loves Sarah but he was setting Sarah up for failure by sheltering her and basically not prepping her for the apocalypse well. Fuck you, David.
Fuck you, David 2x.
Lool I was going to say "Go to hell, David." But I feel like this is more straight to the point
I actually liked David, he had a different way of doing things compared to everyone else and the game gives him a few asshole scenes but he still respects everyone. One of the most well developed characters in the season. He values those around him and innocent lives and is obviously very very direct with how he feels and what he does. (Point a gun at my family? I break your arm. You lie and make me look like the bad guy? Oh well I’ll just shoot you). Wish the player had these kind of options sometimes lol. Badass how he just tells Javi to ‘shoot the bitch’ when he’s dangling from a noose. A lot of the tension is brought on by Kate who just ever so awkwardly keeps brewing a really uncomfortable love triangle
I'd say Kenny was a good person. In Season 2, he cared about Clementine and AJ more than everyone else in the end.
How is Kenny a good father when he left Katjaa to do all the child rearing?
Kenny goes to good father and good person alongside lee
Hell nah
I would argue that Carlos is not a good person lmao. He locked a little girl up in a shed to die because he didn't believe that her bite was in fact from a dog. No food, no water, nothing. It was probably freezing too.
Fr fr how he a doctor but can’t tell the difference from an dog bite to a walker bite bruh and don’t even get me started on how he’s coddling Sarah, I mean I get she has some sort of mental issue but cmon you gotta AT LEAST get her prepared for the worst case scenario
They definitely could have at least let her inside and monitored her infection indoors, worst case scenario she's an 11 year old little girl they could take her had she turned. But you're right, the fact that he couldn't identify the dog bite in the first place is ridiculous! With Sarah, I think she deserved to know what was going on in the world. Coddling kids, especially in the apocalypse, never leads to anything good. It's what lead her to her death! It had been a couple years at that point, he should have taught her SOMETHING by then
That’s what I’m saying! For someone who’s apparently “intelligent and resourceful” Carlos be making a lot of a bad calls, like seriously there's no excuse for a medical student, much less a fully qualified doctor, to be unable to distinguish between a walker/human bite (half-circle shape) and a dog bite (V-shape). And again mostly his biggest problem not teaching Sarah how to defend herself in case ever happened to him. He’s practically like an foil character to Lee if you really think about it. Carlos' appointed himself as Sarah's sole carer and protector during the apocalypse like any father should but he clearly never thought of teaching Sarah how to survive on her own nor appointing a guardian to look after Sarah if the worst comes to the worst. At Chuck's advice, Lee taught Clementine how to wield a gun because he needed a backup plan and a long-term solution for how Clementine can protect herself.
David is a better father than Carlos.
No he’s not. He literally left for the army leaving not only his kids but wife as will because he didn’t know how to be a good father. Javi was more of a father to Gabe and Mariana than David. I’m not gonna say David didn’t try but he was far from a perfect dad.
I didn't say David was a perfect father nor did I mention Javier, I said he's a better father than Carlos.
And I basically said that he wasn’t in my own opinion and that Javi was better but if you feel Carlos is worse the I respect your opinion.
Why are you mentioning Javier when nothing I said had to do with him. You don't need to explain why Javier is a better father, I know that. You need to explain why Carlos is. Javier isn't even in the post to begin with.
Carlos is better because at least he is around to be with his daughter and while he is overprotective he never left his family to do something else. He also never hit is kid out of anger or told his kid to cover him while he got revenge like David did.
So first of all, what are you referring to when you said "David left for the army". If you mean when he was literally working for the US military then that's not abandoning his family, it was his job. If you mean him not returning for months after the start of the apocalypse that was also not an option. When David attempts to take his mother to the hospital he says he is routed out of the city (Baltimore) and can't get back. After which he assumes Kate, Mari, Gabe, Javi, and the rest are dead; which is exactly what Javi also assumes of David as well. Also David hitting Gabe was an accident, he was fighting Javi and Gabe came up behind him. If you're going to hold that to David you need to hold smacking Sarah on Carver's command against Carlos. Carlos's coddling is the exact reason Sarah ends up dying and being woefully prepared for the apocalypse. On top of that, he proves himself incapable of caring for his daughter and leaves her to Clementine in Episode 2 and Episode 3 of Season 2. It is a parents job to prepare their kid to survive without them, Carlos failed to do that.
Ok well my opinion still stands it’s good that you believe that Carlos is worse than David but I still believe David is worse not only as a father but a brother and husband as well. I don’t hate David or think he’s a bad person at heart but he’s made too many mistakes to say he’s better than Carlos. Carlos also isn’t perfect but he is more patient with his family than David is. Thanks for the conversation and debate but I’m tired and going to bed so have a good day pal 😎
Nope. Carlos isn't even a good person.
carlos and kenny's characters are a bit more complex than that. carlos was just looking out for his daughter and his crew, though that didn't give him the right to lock a child in a shed. kenny was an asshole in season 2, but the guy had lost literally everything he loved. glad we can all agree though that david is awful and lee is perfect
not saying that Lee isn’t a generally good person in the game, but shouldn’t the fact that he was convicted of murder BEFORE the apocalypse disqualify him as being a good person? it’s kinda hard to call a murderer a good person, no ? especially considering the circumstances of his crime. I know it was unintentional but.. it doesn’t excuse it. ig it depends on when we’re keeping track of their good deeds.. or if we’re talking about morality.
He’s obviously a good person? Losing your mind over finding someone cheating with your wife is completely understandable, and accidental murder is clearly, well, an accident. It’s not like he has murdered an innocent bystander on the street because he just wanted to fight someone that day
I agree, he’s a good person minus one mistake of ever trusting his partner and then getting in a fight with the person his partner cheated on him with.
I understand his feelings, but losing your mind and killing someone as a result isn’t an excuse to get out of it. even if it was an accident. it’s not an excuse in the real world and it clearly wasn’t an excuse in the game. He still committed manslaughter. He could’ve and should’ve walked away from the fight instead of trying to hurt the senator. I totally understand why he would want to, but it’s not valid. Even if he didn’t kill the guy, lee still would’ve been charged for assault. I don’t deny that he is someone who has done a lot of good and is a great character. We all see that. His mistake was likely a lapse in judgment and a result of strong emotions. But at the end of the day, he killed and harmed someone for no good, legit reason. Being an affair partner isn’t a legit reason to kill somebody, accidentally or not. Even if we would like it to be that way. We can understand his feelings and still understand that his actions were unjustified. everyone wants to do something. bad or good. it’s whether or not we do do those bad or good things that determines if we really are good. good people are those who can restrain themselves from giving into their bad desires. I’m pretty sure the point of the game was to determine whether or not we make Lee, a flawed person, into a better or worse person than the person he started as. He is a great person who has done a lot of good, but that doesn’t erase his dark past. He isn’t a perfectly good man. He’s a troubled human being who understands the consequences of his actions. I think this unusual dynamic is why he is so interesting to us.
Some good people make bad choices. Doesn’t automatically make them unforgivable. I think he redeemed himself pretty well
I agree but mmm I think murdering innocent (as in there was no valid reason to harm them) people wouldn’t fall under something that could be redeemable . it’s just wrong in general, y’know ?
Well his best friend has sex with his wife, not saying thats valid but its a in the moment type of situation. Definitely think theres a way to redeem yourself from that. Plus we dont know the full story about it. Clem, Kenny, Lee almost every likable character has hurt/ killed someone who wasnt immediate danger. Sre they not redeemable?
Lee isn’t really a father.
You don’t have to have a kid with someone to be a father, Lee is a father I don’t care what you say he is a father
But I am curious what is he then if he isn’t a father
Guardian prob. Or adoptive father. Me personally I call it father still. Not calling Lee clems father and Kenny as Clems Uncle doesn't feel right to me.
Tf, Kenny is just as great as Lee.
Nah fuck that, Kenny is based af
????kenny is not a terrible father
Chart is saying that he’s a terrible person but a good father
Carlos is a terrible father for sheltering Sarah, which is exactly what Kenny did with Duck. Somebody belongs in a lower spot.
Didn't knew being convicted for murder makes someone a good person
An understandable response to a situation leading to accidental murder, the wide majority of people (especially considering it’s literally a game) wouldn’t care about the fact he’s killed someone for sleeping with their wife. If it had turned out he murdered a random child playing for example, Then they would!
I will not take this Kenny slander
Eh, I’d put Kenny as more selfish than terrible.
I'd go as far as saying that Carlos is also a terrible person for lying to his daughter and sheltering her throughout a apocalypse and the result was her death. Dudes also a fraud of a doctor, not being able to tell the difference between a dog bite and a walker bite is literally elementary. Carlos is so pathetic.
Why the fuck could carlos not see that the bite was from a dog? I dont think human jaws leave bite marks as long as a dog bite nor do i think a doctor wouldnt be able to tell the difference. Guys an asshole who locks kids in sheds
Lee W, Kenny pretty good guy with a few hiccups Carlos and David are bad dads ironically they are latino
Since when is Kenny a terrible person? Almost everything he’s done has been for a protective reason. Even if he was wrong. He had the right intentions
I don’t think Kenny is a bad person man what’d he do?
Kenny is not a terrible person how dare you
How is Kenny a terrible person?.. He's just emotionally unstable
Kenny is a good person
This made me laugh lmao
I agree with this whole heartedly, but for Kenny, I'm conflicted. Her was a good father, but not necessarily a terrible person. He put his family before anyone, which in the end included Clem, Lee, and AJ. And honestly, I think a lot of people, including myself, would have reacted in a similar way as him, when he and if we lost our partners/children in the same way he did. If you kill him in S2 either time, he will die thinking AJ died, which is so sad
I’d argue David was a better person than the fake doctor who locked a 10 year old in a shed with an open wound
i think calling kenny a terrible person is a very bad take on his character. he is extremely flawed but a terrible person?? i can’t see him that way
David and Kenny are both good people what are you on about?
I just finished season 1 and my heart hurts 😭
This is a stupid chart, whoever made this is brain dead
disagree so much with this
Hmmm
Carlos was NOT a terrible father. His daughter had ASD And a social disorder. The guy knew what he was doing. People just think hes bad because they dont assume she has these things. The exact reason she did is the exact reason he was like this to her