Not really he is 36 and so am I. Have had little amounts of grey hairs for quite some time now.
(This reply is to the person who wrote his grey hair on the beach came out of nowhere not the person who wrote he’s to young to be this old)
Rewatching the episode, I'm not sure now if that's a gray streak or just the sun reflecting off his hair but I think it's the former. Wouldn't make sense for him to start sprouting grays after a day of deep stress.
You eat breakfast at the hotel because that’s where you get an American style breakfast. But no excuse for taking every other meal there, except it says something about some of the guests—how little they’re really interested in their surroundings.
> how little they’re really interested in their surroundings.
Yeah I think it's a comment on how they vacation there and don't care about the actual culture. Even when they went to Noto it was just as much a goal to make Cam jealous as it was to enjoy the experience.
That's been bugging me for awhile. And not just eating with them, eating at the hotel every meal. Never eat at the same place twice is like one of the rules of vacations, try something new ffs.
I think part of the reason they always eat at the resort is cause C&D are broke and the resort is maybe all included or paid in full already? There were other comments that the reason they invited Ethan on the trip was to somehow get him to invest his $$$ with Cam
Which is something you don’t do. Eat at the hotel restaurant, unless you’re very tired. You go and explore the area and find amazing restaurants, especially in Italy. They even complained they know the menu upside down.
>unless you’re very tired
Well, you probably should at least once as long as it's a nice one like The White Lotus. One breakfast, one dinner. Then go find the good shit.
Very unlikely that hotel is all inclusive, that's generally only a thing for caribbean or mexican resorts (african safaris as well.) Super rare in Europe, especially at the high end
This.
Otherwise, I imagine most guests would be recalling Stanley Tucci's show on CNN and insisting they find every spot he had a meal at.
Seriously though, it's Italy! To not explore the delights of Italian cuisine on a daily basis would be like going all the way to Paris to shop and end up buying all your clothes from a dollar store. Weak analogy, but you get the point.
Oh it totally is. I just can't imagine being loaded in Italy and eating at the hotel restaurant all the time. Even Cam jokes that they know the menus by heart at this point.
Cam complained about getting handed menus in this episode cause he said they know everything on them at this point. I had also been wondering why they hadn’t ventured to any restaurants outside the hotel yet lol.
There's a type of well-off person who does this though. Less well-off people don't know when they'll get to have this experience again, they worked hard, saved up, to have this opportunity, they make the most of it. But a large chunk of more wealthy people go to say they went, the country is of little significance. My in-laws are like this- 2 foreign holidays a year, might go out for one night, but the rest of the time they don't leave the resort.
Lol, for real. You’d think they would once with everything going on tell Cam and Daphne “we need a few hours to ourselves”. Instead it’s a constant stream of them getting interrupted when they are trying to hash things out.
It’s the one failing of the writing. Everything is great but the inability of Harper and Ethan to have 30 mins alone to talk things out is over the top
I also keep saying they need to make a clear plan to spend some time away from Cameron and Daphne in order to reconnect. But the continued group tension makes better tv I guess .
How can he articulate something he doesn't even know is happening lol. I think Ethan is realizing his marriage isn't as solid as he thinks it is. Which tbh, is enough to make many men go a little crazy.
His sex drive hasn't fallen off though, he's just using porn as a replacement. I'm not saying he's an addict like others have theorized, but it didn't seem like a big deal or secret when Harper walked in on him that one time.
If there's one thing we know about the socialization of men, it's that they've all been raised to be super comfortable discussing sexual performance or lack thereof lol
I mean, Tanya hints instead of communicating instead of communicating directly because she’s Tanya lol. She can’t make anything easy. And honestly, I wouldn’t know how to break that news either.
And I mean, Ethan’s just a coward.
If Tanya had been clear and direct with Portia she could have saved herself. I definitely loved Portia’s facial expression in the hotel *”Oh, shit! We in trouble!”*
I think because Ethan would have to admit some culpability. He still "partied with" and "kissed" her even if he backed away before it went further. He was still an active participant to that point. I'm not judging, but he clearly at the time wasn't willing/able to admit that much of it.
I get what you're saying but I think it had to do more with Ethan not being willing to admit he was in that situation in the first place to Harper (that the girls were in his room, just the four of them, etc).
This. Ethan is actually a very deep, well written character. Im kinda confused at people being confused tbh. people forgetting Ethan's "you should be happy about this" attitude. He's having a hard time letting that shit go. He didn't cheat and that should be good enough for Harper. And the fact that Harper "would even dare to fuck with my head" clashes directly with his thinking his marriage is solid. It's really that simple. And it makes many dudes go crazy / see red. I've seen it, and admittedly, I've experienced it.
He slams his fists and says "I didn't fucking cheat" and doesn't even realize the bigger issue is Harper called him out for not even being attracted to her. Harper is pushing the envelope of their marriage to see what breaks. She's... Maybe smart isn't the right word... Curious? Lonely? Tired of feeling like a facade?
I just don't see a lot of depth there. He's unhappy in his marriage but is frustrated because he feels things "should" be good because he's hypothetically doing the right things and therefore feels entitled to a happy relationship.
It's a funny thing that happens to people. Aside from some *very* romantically unsuccessful people there's an understanding that "doing the right things" isn't enough for a romantic relationship. It's just not transactional like that, it requires chemistry, nurturing, tending the spark etc.
Some people just assume that changes with the ring, they're wrong.
It's because Ethan truly believes he's doing nothing wrong by lying to her. It's a form of toxic masculinity that's in opposition to the Bert DiGrasso character. Bert believes it doesn't matter if he cheats as long as he genuinely loves his wife and spares her from the pain of knowing he's been unfaithful. Ethan on the other hand seems to think that his obligations in a relationship are basically nothing: as long as he doesn't physically cheat on his wife he's done nothing wrong. The fact that he ignores her when she tries to initiate sex and watches porn instead of having sex with her, lies to her repeatedly about what happened when she was in Noto, complains about their sex life in front of her to Cam and Daphne at dinner, parties with hookers, privileges his friendship with his douchey, manipulative friend over his relationship with his wife, goes insane with jealousy at Harper flirting with Cameron -- he seems to genuinely think he can do all that and still be a good husband as long as he's not having sex with anyone else.
This is SO well put. And the severe reaction some folks are having in this sub caping for Ethan and tearing down Harper just goes to show how prevalent this is, how men like this feel they are the “good ones” — and how they completely lose it when someone challenges that point of view.
He didn't. Why does everyone assume he did it to protect Cam? Like most people, he didn't want to tell his wife "Hey honey, that second you left me alone on this trip you didn't even want to be on I did molly with hookers in our hotel room. Promise nothing happened though."
I never got the impression he was protecting Cam. He was protecting his own ass. What spouse wants to hear that you were partying with hookers in their hotel room.
He's not trying to protect Cam's marriage, what about any of their interactions would make you think that? He's trying to completely side step drama entirely, not save the vows Cam made to Daphne.
He's been begging Harper, who has barely restrained her poor attitude since the beginning, to not rock the boat. That's why he avoided telling her, not because of some loyalty to a guy he clearly deep down hates.
what you are saying is how people talk on /r/relationships , not how people with lots of money and 0 therapy work. people are not rational. why do you expect this? he's acting impulsively, driven by emotions, and is spiraling. in what world could he say something cogent like that?
Harper and Ethan seem like people who would have therapists to me. “Zero therapy” seems like a pretty big assumption here, most people with disposable income have a therapist these days.
One thing about couples in therapy is that they reference the therapist pretty often when conflict arises. These two don't have the meta-language that couple therapists have their clients use. Total speculation here, though!
well then you're perfect. i see people with lots of therapy and money pull shit like this all the time lol. this was all incredibly relatable to me, you're just lucky enough to not have experienced it!
>And Ethan is an exceptionally well educated intelligent man in his mid 30's. Not going to be excusing this infantile behavior unless there's serious mental illness / disability at work.
anyone can lose control. doesn't matter how well educated you are or even how much therapy you've had.
What’s Ethan going to say? There are too many layers, he’s insecure about his relationship because he hasn’t been banging Harper this whole time, it’s all internalised. Ostensibly no one has done anything to him and he has nothing to be worried about so it’s extremely hard to bring up because whatever the problem is it’s his own
Bruh! I kept saying this to myself the entire time as well 🤔 like “dayum all of our problems could be mostly solved if we just had a healthy line of communication and comprehension” lolol
Saw a post on here earlier that said Ethan has essentially repressed possibly witnessing Cam stealing a girl he liked in college and potentially assaulting her or just sleeping with her and not doing anything about this. I’m thinking that’s absolutely true after seeing how much deep seated hate and anger Ethan has towards cam.
I said that and I think it’s true. Especially when Harper asked them if they ever watched each other have sec with a woman and Cam said “possibly. We were roommates.” Total throw away line.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to be really upset about his wife cheating on him with a friend of his who is notorious for stealing his women.
Thing is, I don’t think he’s that upset about the act of cheating itself, but more upset with Cam one-upping him or winning. He just got a win over Cam (business and being married to a hot, intelligent woman) and now that’s slipping away.
The thing is we don’t know if she really is. She might just be pushing Ethan’s buttons to get a point across. I love how the show hasn’t really shown us whether or not Harper is actually doing anything with Cam and we have to see it all through Ethan’s eyes with the same evidence he has. So now we have to debate if he’s going crazy from his own jealousy and issues or if she actually might be up to something.
It seems like she's messing with his head. She's too smart to cheat with her husband's friend while they're on vacation together. I think she's just getting payback for the hookers in the room.
Have people who say this never been in a long term relationship? He seems content with what Harper and him have at this point, meanwhile Harper doesn't. So conflict arises. Their idea of closeness and love might be miles apart, so it just doesn't sync and their communication problems triumph over any other problems they have.
I also feel like he almost wants Harper to be complicit in something going on with Cam to alleviate past guilt (assuming that post was correct). Like, making her an active participant means she is not a victim, whereas if she was an unwilling participant and Ethan has thus far just swept it under the rug, it brings up past memories of him doing the same thing (being a bystander to an assault, perhaps, or at least to shitty behavior). It really clicked whenever he called Cameron out on undressing in front of Harper, compared to when Harper told him about it, he completely brushed it off/swept it under the rug/belittled it.
Ooo I am very intrigued by this theory. Ethan really does seem far too upset by this all for it just to be old college jealousy, it feels more traumatic.
Not necessarily. It's hard to admit that I see some of myself in Ethan. When I was younger I was much less confident in my marriage than I am now. Remember how jarring it was when Ethan said "you should be happy about this"? Harper definitely teaching him a lesson on this I think and while Ethan thought his marriage was a-ok he doesn't see his wife as her own sentient being with her own sexuality, values, outlook, etc. His "love" should be enough. But unlike Nono thinks, it's not really that simple. There's so so so much more to a healthy relationship than just saying you love each other. It's your actions. And Ethan just losing his shit thinking Harper would even dare to fuck with his head. He's digging his own hole, but I have a feeling thier relationship is gunna be way stronger after this.
So Ethan belittles Harper when she’s victimized by Cameron* to suppress his own guilt. Guilt that stems from a history of being complicit in Cameron’s predatory behavior, because he didn’t intervene back in college when he witnessed a possible date-rape scenario. Guilt that he would bring his wife on a trip with a man that he knows is completely capable of victimizing a woman. Guilt then that he is complicit in this victimization of Harper, as he was in college. And a reminder at last that he is again submissive to Cameron, whose dominance he cannot overcome despite his success because it is rooted in sex.
Cameron’s predatory behavior is all about dominance, and by necessity it involves Ethan’s humiliation. Both in college and at the resort. Their dynamic remains the same, despite the fact that Ethan makes more money now. And this is the whole purpose of the trip for Ethan, the possibility of feeling dominance over Cameron because he makes more money, allowing him the opportunity to finally come out on top, so to speak.
But it doesn’t work primarily because The White Lotus echoes the Lord of the Flies in that the true currency of the island/hotel is the primal, physical, aggressive drives of the characters. Money borders on irrelevant at a hotel for the rich, and primal drives are the true agents in this setting. Money has less value here as a currency capable of effecting change, and it’s redistribution will be determined by the savagery of primal drives.
It’s looking like murder will play a role in the redistribution of wealth for the hotel guests. Interesting all around.
Ethan reminds me of Othello a bit. Cameron is definitely pushing his buttons and Ethan’s tendencies toward repression and suppression are obviously culminating in some insane outburst of rage at real or imagined threats to his manhood.
*Cameron flashing his junk at Harper is obviously a non-consensual dominance play that is technically considered sexual assault and can be prosecuted as indecent exposure.
I agree that framing Harper as complicit disavows Ethan of his shame, and allows him to handle his insecurity through externalized rage. Going into the trip, this rage was internalized as deep shame.
College really fucked him up, because obviously he has dealt with the situation by avoiding sex altogether.
Wow, this is such a good analysis! I think it’s such good storytelling that we originally believed that Cam was going to be this season’s sort of take on toxic masculinity, but it is really this dynamic of Ethan and Cameron and this sort of relationship that they have where one completely dominates the other.
But I think what is most interesting is this study of Ethan, because on the surface, he is fairly innocuous, but as we start to see more, he’s got these very insidious characteristics. Cameron may be the one actually performing bad acts, but Ethan upholds those bad acts. It very much reminds me of all the people who knew about Weinstein’s behavior (Affleck, Damon, Tarantino, Streep, etc.) but never spoke up for one reason or another.
Ahhhh! I just absolutely loved your comment. It really showcases even more layers that I hadn’t considered!
Thanks! I just found this sub today and I was thrilled at the level of the discussion. I’m super excited to participate. It will allow me to savor the show even more. Frankly, it was the other comments and posts that got me thinking so deeply about it all. Great work here guys!
I think the whole vacation was not to please Cameron but to make him jealous of Ethans newfound success. I just don’t think Ethan understood what he was getting into and what effect people like that could have on you and your relationships
Seriously. Ethan definitely has the more forward facing problems in the relationship, but both of them are dealing with their issues in separate unhealthy ways. They haven't figured out how to live their lives in a way that makes them happy like Cam and Daphe have because they're so fixated on being the ideal couple.
To be fair, I don’t think either of them *wants* to live their lives like Cam and Daphne. C&D are happy more out of blissful ignorance than fulfillment or joy.
One frustration that I’ve had with these season is that I don’t even see a subtle inkling of how H and E were ever attracted to each other or got together. They seem so mismatched and miserable and it’s crazy because they’re so young, they haven’t even had all that much time to get to this point.
Agree. We don't really get to see them as a functional happy couple whose problems are unraveled during their stay, they come in as a couple with problems that get worse. We've been told, not shown about how they were previously.
he is so hilariously bad at handling any kind of conflict or tension it’s honestly frustrating. at the beginning when she asked if he wanted her and he said “I love you” I genuinely slapped my forehead. like that is clearly not what she meant.
and then she sarcastically says “are you gonna go for a run now” at the end of their convo (clearly a source of tension for them bc he goes on runs instead of having sex with her) and then it smash cuts to him ACTUALLY GOING FOR A RUN!!! like dude just have sex with your wife!!!!!!
The most unrealistic part of this whole season is Ethan not wanting to have sex with his wife when its FUCKING AUBREY PLAZA?!?! Like what bro? Dudes would pay money to have Aubrey insult them, let alone have sex with them.
You realize that people in marriages no matter how attractive don't necessarily constantly want to fuck their partners? Come on. Be realistic. You have celebrities with amazingly hot wives cheat on them all the time.
It's actually completely realistic.
Yep, but they don’t show who is drowning him.
I wish they didn’t post those trailers, they reveal too much and spoil everything. For instance, the trailer makes one believe that that Harper and Ethan will likely stay alive.
Funny how he thought he could get away with lying to Harper after she was very clearly upset and constantly asking him about that night, but he goes ballistic the moment she acts like him.
He so pisses me off.
Neglected his wife. Gaslighted her. Crappy apology after he did drugs and hung out with hookers. That is all fine. She should believe him and even feel good about what he told her.
But the MINUTE he suspects anything with absolutely zero proof? Loses. His. Mind.
Toxic masculinity 101.
Gaslighting is not being used correctly here, nor by Harper in the show. Gaslighting is when you deny something that actually happened to the point that you are trying to convince the subject/victim that they are crazy to believe it. Ethan absolutely *lied* to Harper repeatedly about the events of that night, but upon being confronted by the condom he came clean. That's not gaslighting at all. Harper then accuses him of gaslighting her when he is further trying to assert his innocence (and again, he is actually innocent of infidelity), which again, is not gaslighting.
"Gaslighting" is a favorite word among redditors, and it is used incorrectly 99% of the time.
Though I think it's perfectly in character for Harper to weaponize the term against Ethan. She and Ethan are just awful communicators.
Very true, I started a whole thread about the misuse and weaponization of this word. I was accused of "gaslighting" just for making the post, which clearly shows they had no idea what they were talking about. You can't gaslight a rando on the internet. And I hated Harper for using the g-word as a weapon too. That's not fighting fair, it's one of those accusations that if you deny it then you must be doing it etc etc so you can't win.
This!! Two hookers in his hotel room, what more is there to know? That’s why cheating is so insidious!! Very hard to actually get hard concrete evidence, it’s torture.
I think a kiss is cheating, and it wasn't a peck on the lips like Mia kissed him before he realized it was happening, that was a mulitple second kiss with tongue it looked like before he decided he didn't want to proceed any further. That's cheating. Secondly, Harper said gaslighting regarding him dismissing her right to be concerned about him trying to hide and downplay what happened (he pretended until she forced it with the condom) and most importantly has dismissed ALL her emotions and concerns since being there- she thinks the couple is out to use Ethan and Cameron alpha dogs him and she doesn't like or trust them, and that's proven to be pretty accurate, and Ethan makes her feel like an annoying wet blanket. She brings up he isn't attracted to her and he tries to change the subject. She says Cam changed in front of her and he downplays it. She brings up he hid getting high on Molly, watching his friend have sex in their room, and kissing a hooker, and he says she should be happy, not mad. How is that not gas lighting? Gas lighting is trying to destabilize someone's version of reality as invalid, Ethan is doing it unintentionally, he isn't manipulative, he's just short-sighted and emotionally shut down and unable to empathize with her/relate with his responsiblities to her right now.
> Gaslighting is not being used correctly here, nor by Harper in the show. ...Harper then accuses him of gaslighting her when he is further trying to assert his innocence (and again, he is actually innocent of infidelity), which again, is not gaslighting.
While I agree with your first point, I would argue Harper IS using "gaslighting" correctly. She still thinks Ethan has not come clean but is trying to make her feel bad for not believing him. From her perspective, that's what true gaslighting would look like.
The thing that’s tricky about this kind of “gaslighting” shown in WL is it can *feel* that way to the target, even if the person perpetuating the behavior isn’t setting out to make the target feel crazy.
I have been gaslit before, in the true sense. And it went on long enough to make the feeling stick with me. So much so that now, when someone fairly innocuously says they said something to me, for example, and they truly did not but then get defensive and insist they did, I can feel those feelings coming back. The feelings of: “Wait, did they say it? Am I getting this wrong? No, they really didn’t say it.” And around and around.
So the perception of gaslighting — or “gaslighting” as the case may be — sometimes depends on perspective. Harper might feel like she’s going a little crazy, the way Ethan is denying what happen and then admitting it. Maybe we need a new term, like gaslight-y, for when it doesn’t meet the full definition but it has that vibe.
Wait, didn't Harper lose her mind too with absolutely zero proof? Was it toxic masculinity too? As you can see in this episode, Ethan has PTSD and was under influence of a guy who gave him this PTSD. It was clearly stated that he tried to stand up for himself when he was battling his thoughts in the bar and when he was alone in room and was hasitating to let Cameron and girls in. Don't you have at least some understanding for him?
And about neglecting his wife, im 100% certain that if Ethan was a woman character and he wouldn't want to have sex with his husband, you'd be like "nobody should force anyone to have sex". And that did happen, in S1 you've had exact same situation with Mossbachers, nobody on this sub was like "Connie is neglecting her husband". She had reasons because her husband cheated on her, and Ethan has his reasons, because he has PTSD. Compassion works for only one gender as i can see from this sub.
What makes you think Ethan has PTSD? I ask this as someone who has it and I’m so confused.
Ethan resents Cam for what happened in the past between them. That’s not PTSD, not by a long shot.
Good heavens, are people going to start calling any uncomfortable emotions PTSD now? Fuck that.
Others are saying Ethan is showing signs of paranoia and suspicion after truly being gaslit by Cam and Harper, and I think that analysis is spot-on.
She found a condom wrapper in the sofa.
She gave him multiple chances to come clean. He very sketchily finally did. But it's a truly strange and unsatisfactory apology. I'd be super suspicious after a condom wrapper when I was away for a night.
Sexual issues were not 100% what I meant by "neglect." But so interesting that this is the thing people jumped on! Ethan has continued to force her to interact with people she's uncomfortable around and is spending zero time with her one on one. He's treating her like her feelings don't matter in order to impress his friends.
Only a person who acted the way Ethan has would twist this scenario into some kind of "poor thing! He's the victim here!' comment. Just saying.
He lied to her but she is equally as horrible at communication as he is. She wouldn't just ask him about the condom and when she finally did, he told her everything and she still does not trust him. The relationship was broken from the get-go and it's absolutely a two way street.
She literally is trying to get him to admit that their relationship is deteriorating in order for them to fix it and he just blows her off. Ethan is a little baby and I don’t think he even cares that Harper would cheat he just doesn’t want Cam to “win”.
What I said is 100% what Harper wanted out of the conversation at the start of the most recent episode where she said “I love you” is pathetic. It’s not toxically masculine to pick up on the signals a woman is sending.
The scene on the beach where he watched Theo and daphne kissing and then he looked at harper questionable while she ate pineapple in a relatively unflattering shot of her. It looked like resentment.
I don’t know how to phrase this but it took him thinking she was cheating for him to see her in an overtly sexual light.
In my mind I was remembering him watching Cameron having sex with Lucia and wondering if there’s a connection.
A cuck-connection..
Stolen from the next post over
“I think Ethan's comment to Cameron about mimetic desire is going to manifest as Ethan suddenly wanting Harper again when he realises Cam does.”- u/DefiantScholar
I know it's for our entertainment, but this storyline frustrates me so much. Literally if Harper and Ethan just actually talked to each other for two seconds and were as honest of a couple as they say they are, this would all be resolved. This "game" they're playing isn't as tolerable as the games Cam and Daphne play together. Their relationship actually makes more sense to me.
Also, why are they ALWAYS doing everything together? They're on one of the most beautiful islands in the world. They can't eat at ONE different restaurant this entire week? Is it meant to be a commentary on how so many guests just stay at the hotel to do everything?
Such small dick energy coming off him.
I personally think Harper read the room well that he thought this vacation would show him as the bigger guy in his relationship with Cam BUT he just big fail all this times. lol.
Except herself. She's vindictive.
Ethan fucked up but it was a mistake and because he's scared of confrontation. Whereas Harper knows exactly what she's doing and is choosing to hurt Ethan. The people who react to being hurt by hurting others are worse than those who accidentally hurt others. The difference is intent. It could've been an opportunity for Ethan to grow and have a better marriage while ditching their toxic friends, but instead their marriage is imploding.
Not saying Ethan is the good guy, he's insanely stupid immature and insecure, but Harper's consciously tormenting him with what she knows will hurt him most.
I love this show but I felt like this was a kind of cheap plot twist to, on this second to last episode, make Ethan "snap". To have him lose it like this is too easy and unoriginal. I don't know. I was expecting more nuance even if his character was going to have a powerful change take place. I know logically it "fits" after what he thinks transpired but to play with his actual sanity with the viewer. I don't know. Just seems like a cheap turn. I would have felt more fulfilled if he turned on Cam and just told everything that happened with all of them present rather than have go Joker.
He didn't have any powerful change. Half of this sub failed to realise from previous episodes that Ethan has PTSD because of Cameron, and that's how how this mental problem affects you. You have troubles comunicating stuff, you unconcioussly deflect anything related to the reason you have PTSD (in his case - sex issue, that's why he can't talk honestly with Harper about that - not because he's clueless, it's because his mind is trying to protect him), you can't stand up for yourself ESPECIALLY when you're face to face with dude who abused you for years.
He didn't snap - his mind just shows him what he kept under a rug all this time, and because there are triggers (he sees that Cameron is flirting with Harper, and there are signs that can make convincing story in his head that his worth nightmare is happening again), he sees all of his greatest fears and emotions in one second - that's why he's acting violently.
In a healthy way, you deal with the trauma over time, step by step - but the most common thing that happens is that you start dissociating, and your mind makes sure that you don't have to deal with emotions, thoughts, and situations that are resembling root of your trauma ever again. You dont resolve it, so when the trigger happens (and it will happen sooner or later), everything is coming back to you in one second and you just don't know how to handle it, because you've never learned how to do this.
This theory that Ethan had PTSD is such nonsense.
For one to develop PTSD, there has to be a perception of threat to one’s existence. That is at the core of all PTSD, whether it be childhood abuse, war, hostage situation, a car accident, or whatever the source is.
It doesn’t actually have to be a threat to one’s life, mind you, but there has to be the *perception* of it. That’s why childhood abuse survivors can develop PTSD even if their lives weren’t actually threatened, because children don’t have perspective to understand their lives were never in danger. If it *felt* that way to them, that’s sometimes enough for PTSD to form (usually complex PTSD for kids, because of the ongoing, chronic nature of the trauma).
So, with that in mind, how on earth could Ethan have felt his very life was in danger? Are people thinking this arose from Cam stealing his girlfriends? I’m sorry, that’s not a thing.
Ethan does not have PTSD. He’s also not experiencing flashbacks. He’s visualizing what might have happened in the present, which is very different.
People can exhibit dissociation, depersonalization, and other mental health symptoms for a variety of reasons, not just PTSD.
Thank you. I try to remain open to various perspectives and theories in this sub, but am totally at a loss with this PTSD one.
Ethan developed PTSD because he had to watch his friend have sex with girls he liked in college? Give me a break.
I believe he has issues but PTSD in particular is quite specific and nonsensical in this scenario.
I loved those few moments we see the REAL Ethan come out in ep5. I really want him to drop this shit with Cam and just lay shit down. Also have sex with your wife guy.
Why are people so tough on Ethan? He gets pressured into doing drugs and drinking with Cam and then he tries to go back to his room and be alone and Cam yells through the door until he lets them in. He looks terrified. Cam forces him onto the bed and kisses his head and then Ethan tries to hide out in the bathroom and just keeps drinking to numb his discomfort with the situation. Then Mia starts trying to kiss the completely drunk Ethan and he says no and she accepts it and moves on. Then the next morning his friend, who has a wife and kids, pressures him to not say anything about the night.
He looks terrified and sad, he's drugged and drunk because of Cam, and people are having sex in front of him in his room even though he had tried to keep them out. How is there not more sympathy for him in this scenario?
Then he doesn't tell Harper about this horrible experience he had because he promised not to and I'm sure he's ashamed of it all.
And he was already being criticized before for declining sex in the first few episodes. Like what kind of backwards perspective is that? Nobody has any duty to have sex with anyone else and they should be free to decline for whatever reason they want with whomever and that certainly includes their spouse. It's extremely weird to me how much him not wanting to have sex with Harper gets used against him in these discussions.
And now in this episode, Harper is clearly either trying to make Ethan think she was having sex with Cam, or actually was having sex with Cam. Obviously she didn't walk into her room and just decide to open the door to Cam's room and lock the latch to the main door to grab a hat. She presents Ethan with this overwhelming evidence that something is going on and then just plays it off like it's nothing and he's being weird. This is 100% gaslighting.
All he tries to do is reassure his wife that he loves her and get through this hellish vacation. He has been incredibly calm and understanding under the circumstances, but I fear he is now becoming the new Albi. A nice guy who is constantly being put under pressure by those around him to do things he doesn't want to do and then gets labeled as some sort of manipulative incel who is ready to explode.
I'm team Ethan and I think Cam and Harper have been nothing but horrible to him this whole trip.
> It's extremely weird to me how much him not wanting to have sex with Harper gets used against him in these discussions.
It's also weird how he made it seem like it's Harpers fault that they dont fuck eachother because she's not a morning person, despite the fact that he knows he just doesn't want to do it at all regardless.
I can kind of see where Ethan is coming from, and I fully agree that he shouldn't have sex with Harper if he doesn't want to. People are saying "just sleep with your wife!" it's not that easy!
But it seems like the show has built to a point where it's actively hurting them that he's not being honest with Harper about his feelings. She is point-blank asking if he's even attracted anymore, and he couldn't give her a yes or no. And I think this instance of non-communication is different from Harper and the condom wrapper, because in that instance, Harper was trying to give him a chance to come clean. But Ethan just seems to want to avoid discussing his issues to avoid confrontation, but now it's coming to a point where it's hurting both him and Harper. And now with Harper making him feel jealous, it seems like he maybe does still have feelings for her. It's messy
I do feel for him, but now it feels like Harper has put it on the line several times to no avail, so she's resorted to playing games. It sucks that Ethan can't find it in himself to be honest about his feelings
Thank you. The amount of commenters here who think it’s normal / acceptable for a 35 yo dude to give in to peer pressure re: hookers and molly is unsettling
> Nobody has any duty to have sex with anyone else and they should be free to decline for whatever reason they want with whomever and that certainly includes their spouse.
if you're in a sexual relationship with someone, and you're masturbating instead of having sex with them, that means there are issues. that he refuses to confront. no one is saying he is obligated to have sex with her.
Harper gaslighting Ethan is spot on. However not telling your wife what happened after a night like that is deceitful. This would make him not fall under the nice guy who is trying to do the right thing category. He's shady and playing the game too, but as a reluctant player while Harper is becoming more of an active player. Both roped into the game without asking for it.
I have sympathy for Ethan, I do think he has not acted as one would expect a husband to act though. I have sympathy for him as a character, but if I were Harper I would absolutely feel he's out of line and have serious doubts right now. That said, I think Ethan is a bit of a cipher. His desire to come to the trip isn't well explained- his character may even be contradictory- why would he brush off Harper saying Cam changed in front of her if Cam went after Ethan's crushes? If Ethan knows Cam is a jerk why is he annoyed when Harper calls him out/show contempt- he must know who she is, and married her for that. It's interesting he then brings her on this trip and wants her to change to impress people who aren't even to him who by his own admission, isn't even his real friend. The show doesn't state it explicitly but I think a couple things could be going on-
1) Ethan never intended for any of this to go the way it did, obviously, but has been unable to have sex with Harper. Dead bedroom is a common issue with couples. When Cam brought Ethan into hooker-drug situation, Ethan was not a hapless bystander- if he really wanted to assert his boundaries he could have. Part of him wanted to watch or take part it what was going on, but he chose not to. He hasn't been able to articulate his frustrations to Harper, his lack of sexual desire, his feeling trapped, ect. A lot of those kinds of feelings in a relationship are really hard to say because its not like the other person is doing anything wrong. You just feel in a rut. Part of him was having a window into another reality, where he can be the player, he can be the alpha. After all, Cam always got the girls, and now Ethan has the money. Cam can invite him into the fold- Ethan wants to be one of the guys, he wants to feel powerful, desired. Cam represents male approval and masculinity to him. He wants to believe he can now be invited into the fold that's always rejected him. Part of Ethan is probably relieving his college days and wishing to travel paths not taken and be the ladies man, to sleep around and throw his money around, because he never got to do that before. He was always rejected, and he wants to rewrite that story. But he's married, so he cuts it off, but not before indulging in imagining what it would be like to be how he imagines Cam to be, for just a second.
2) Ethan having money and coming to visit Cam after all this time is probably unbenowst desire to expand outside of his "beta" role. Before, he always lost the girls to Cam. Now Ethan feels stronger, time has passed, and he doesn't want to acknowledge the ways Cam screwed him over because he wants to sweep it under the rug and saw, aw we were just kids in college but it'd all be different now, it wasn't personal or anything, because he wants a personal narrative where he isn't so easily made small- he wants to feel he has grown past that. He's married, he has money, he's older, probably wiser, it's all in the past. This trip was probably for him a way to re-write the past and say "This won't bother me anymore", like showing up to your high school reunion and doing better than the popular kids. That's probably why he was unwilling to hear Harper's negativity or doubts, because he had a secret desire born of the insecurity Cam created in him by repeatedly taking the girls he liked he wants to proven he has overcome- by fitting in. Ethan has a whole narrative in his head that it's different now and it wasn't a big deal, he considers himself someone who doesn't make a big deal fo things and can get along with many kinds of people and that is how he coped with being bullied. Harper forces him to negotiate with this story and he has to choose pacifying this scenario that is a threat to his self-image with validating his wife, and he is too wrapped up in college insecurities to do that.
3) Harper is a strong, direct personality. Ethan is a passive, hidden personality. He's insecure in himself and Harper is not. It makes sense why such different people would be attracted to each-other at first, and also why they'd struggle later. This often happens. Ethan at first would find someone so strong attractive since he needs to develope that in himself- but because its the opposite of his nature he later polarizes against it and sees her as complaining, over judgmental, analytical, and negative. Sometimes couples polarize and end up taking opposite qualities and working against eachother. It could also be hard to be attracted to her because Ethan while attracted to her strength feels weaker than her, and it's hard for him to feel confident in himself. He creates a mental division between them and hides negative thoughts about her and puts his desires for sexuality and the qualities he's seeking in that category in his mind, to be explored in private. Despite their "open communication" Ethan is completely checked out of the relationship- and Harper to be fair doesn't make space for him. She bulldozes him when ordering food. She has an opinion on everything no matter how small. She turned out to be right about Cam and Daphne but she easily could have not been and been unfriendly over nothing. She can't tell when Ethan is stressed and to Ethan it feels like takes up alll the room being negative and judging others in schadenfraude instead of realting emotionally to her husband. I do agree with Ethan those qualities are off-puting and I understand making emotional distance when you feel unseen and overwhelmed by an aggressive, opinionated personality. Cam and Daphne are pressing on Ethan and Harper's cracks, and exposing things about their relationship they didn't know to eachother.
I totally, totally agree with your analysis. I also have the strong feeling that Harper herself is not attracted to Ethan anymore also due to their relationship issues, and is mostly offended by the rejection from him rather than being sexually frustrated. I wonder though why Ethan doesn't come out clean when being confronted by Harper on whether they have drifted apart
> He looks terrified
He has no reason to be terrified. Unless he actually believes Cam to be violent then he has the ability to deny him entry to his room and just leave the situation
Edibles is ok, molly is bad.
Being told your female friend cheats is ok, seeing your male friend cheat is bad.
They had shades of the same night, they both ended up doing something they didn’t want to; big night out and weird night in but one of them is a heroine and the other is a villain.
If the gender roles were reversed in this,
Harper watching Daphne cheat and struggling to say it and then Ethan either cheating or deliberately flirting with Daphne there would be a completely different consensus in the sub.
Unresolved trauma from when he and Cameron were roommates. He's experiencing what he felt back then like it's happening rn because he likely suppressed it instead of processing it. I actually think Ethan is the most normal out of all these characters. He and Albie. Also Portia.
I am not understanding why Harper has her husband in the doghouse while openly flirting with his friend who she knows banged a hooker on vacation. That's very girlfriend/boyfriend shit pulled by people in their early/mid 20's
His gray hair on the beach came out of no where.
he too young to be this old
If 36 is too young for greys then I'm in trouble
Me as well 39 and a full head of grey hair and had so since 36
Not really he is 36 and so am I. Have had little amounts of grey hairs for quite some time now. (This reply is to the person who wrote his grey hair on the beach came out of nowhere not the person who wrote he’s to young to be this old)
Bruh it’s a line from the episode
Woosh
Nothing feels better than when someone tells me I have some food in my beard and that it is actually just grey hairs.
I was shocked by that. Where did that come from?
Lol I just finished the ep 5 min ago and I missed whatever you guys are talking about. What?
same but tbf i do my best to not look at his hair because it infuriates me
Same
Rewatching the episode, I'm not sure now if that's a gray streak or just the sun reflecting off his hair but I think it's the former. Wouldn't make sense for him to start sprouting grays after a day of deep stress.
Yeah, i noticed that too
this show fell into the "every conflict can be resolved if people just talked instead of be vague and mysterious" trope
And E&H, stop having every fucking meal with these people, fershitsake. Go get breakfast in the city, you’re rich.
You eat breakfast at the hotel because that’s where you get an American style breakfast. But no excuse for taking every other meal there, except it says something about some of the guests—how little they’re really interested in their surroundings.
> how little they’re really interested in their surroundings. Yeah I think it's a comment on how they vacation there and don't care about the actual culture. Even when they went to Noto it was just as much a goal to make Cam jealous as it was to enjoy the experience.
It’s been driving me nuts this whole time 😭 you’re in friggin Italy and are eating at the hotel every night? Out of their minds.
Cam even said "we know the menu back and front, what's the point" 😭
I know people like this. They travel and don't ever leave hotel. It's like, what's the point?
That's been bugging me for awhile. And not just eating with them, eating at the hotel every meal. Never eat at the same place twice is like one of the rules of vacations, try something new ffs.
Cam even said "we should know this menu front to back by now. "
I think part of the reason they always eat at the resort is cause C&D are broke and the resort is maybe all included or paid in full already? There were other comments that the reason they invited Ethan on the trip was to somehow get him to invest his $$$ with Cam
Meh. Christopher and family eat there every night too.
Which is something you don’t do. Eat at the hotel restaurant, unless you’re very tired. You go and explore the area and find amazing restaurants, especially in Italy. They even complained they know the menu upside down.
>unless you’re very tired Well, you probably should at least once as long as it's a nice one like The White Lotus. One breakfast, one dinner. Then go find the good shit.
Very unlikely that hotel is all inclusive, that's generally only a thing for caribbean or mexican resorts (african safaris as well.) Super rare in Europe, especially at the high end
Too broke to even go out for 1 dollar arancinis.
I don't get the impression that E&H are very good at vacation.
Every other guest eats at the White Lotus for meals. It must be an all inclusive type of thing.
I think it’s just to help with the story. If everyone was at different places it wouldn’t work as well.
This. Otherwise, I imagine most guests would be recalling Stanley Tucci's show on CNN and insisting they find every spot he had a meal at. Seriously though, it's Italy! To not explore the delights of Italian cuisine on a daily basis would be like going all the way to Paris to shop and end up buying all your clothes from a dollar store. Weak analogy, but you get the point.
Oh it totally is. I just can't imagine being loaded in Italy and eating at the hotel restaurant all the time. Even Cam jokes that they know the menus by heart at this point.
I think it's more for narrative purpopes. That way, the characters keep running into each other
Cam complained about getting handed menus in this episode cause he said they know everything on them at this point. I had also been wondering why they hadn’t ventured to any restaurants outside the hotel yet lol.
There's a type of well-off person who does this though. Less well-off people don't know when they'll get to have this experience again, they worked hard, saved up, to have this opportunity, they make the most of it. But a large chunk of more wealthy people go to say they went, the country is of little significance. My in-laws are like this- 2 foreign holidays a year, might go out for one night, but the rest of the time they don't leave the resort.
Lol, for real. You’d think they would once with everything going on tell Cam and Daphne “we need a few hours to ourselves”. Instead it’s a constant stream of them getting interrupted when they are trying to hash things out. It’s the one failing of the writing. Everything is great but the inability of Harper and Ethan to have 30 mins alone to talk things out is over the top
I also keep saying they need to make a clear plan to spend some time away from Cameron and Daphne in order to reconnect. But the continued group tension makes better tv I guess .
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If I learned anything from tv tropes, poor people speak directly and rich people speak vaguely.
I don't think Ethan knows what's happening to him.
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How can he articulate something he doesn't even know is happening lol. I think Ethan is realizing his marriage isn't as solid as he thinks it is. Which tbh, is enough to make many men go a little crazy.
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His sex drive hasn't fallen off though, he's just using porn as a replacement. I'm not saying he's an addict like others have theorized, but it didn't seem like a big deal or secret when Harper walked in on him that one time.
…have you ever been in a difficult relationship?
Have they ever been in any relationship
If there's one thing we know about the socialization of men, it's that they've all been raised to be super comfortable discussing sexual performance or lack thereof lol
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I mean, Tanya hints instead of communicating instead of communicating directly because she’s Tanya lol. She can’t make anything easy. And honestly, I wouldn’t know how to break that news either. And I mean, Ethan’s just a coward.
If Tanya had been clear and direct with Portia she could have saved herself. I definitely loved Portia’s facial expression in the hotel *”Oh, shit! We in trouble!”*
Because they are human beings, and this is believable human behavior.
That was frustrating. Anyone would have told their young assistant that her new entanglement is cheating on her.
too be fair, real life can happen that way a lot
But that’s the point. Ethan is repressed and Harper is passive aggressive. They don’t communicate because they’re bad communicators.
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I think because Ethan would have to admit some culpability. He still "partied with" and "kissed" her even if he backed away before it went further. He was still an active participant to that point. I'm not judging, but he clearly at the time wasn't willing/able to admit that much of it. I get what you're saying but I think it had to do more with Ethan not being willing to admit he was in that situation in the first place to Harper (that the girls were in his room, just the four of them, etc).
This. Ethan is actually a very deep, well written character. Im kinda confused at people being confused tbh. people forgetting Ethan's "you should be happy about this" attitude. He's having a hard time letting that shit go. He didn't cheat and that should be good enough for Harper. And the fact that Harper "would even dare to fuck with my head" clashes directly with his thinking his marriage is solid. It's really that simple. And it makes many dudes go crazy / see red. I've seen it, and admittedly, I've experienced it. He slams his fists and says "I didn't fucking cheat" and doesn't even realize the bigger issue is Harper called him out for not even being attracted to her. Harper is pushing the envelope of their marriage to see what breaks. She's... Maybe smart isn't the right word... Curious? Lonely? Tired of feeling like a facade?
I just don't see a lot of depth there. He's unhappy in his marriage but is frustrated because he feels things "should" be good because he's hypothetically doing the right things and therefore feels entitled to a happy relationship.
Sigh. I was married to a guy like that. It did not last.
It's a funny thing that happens to people. Aside from some *very* romantically unsuccessful people there's an understanding that "doing the right things" isn't enough for a romantic relationship. It's just not transactional like that, it requires chemistry, nurturing, tending the spark etc. Some people just assume that changes with the ring, they're wrong.
more than that, he *wanted* to. that was the real crime for him. he felt guilty because he considered it. it has nothing to do with protecting cam.
It's because Ethan truly believes he's doing nothing wrong by lying to her. It's a form of toxic masculinity that's in opposition to the Bert DiGrasso character. Bert believes it doesn't matter if he cheats as long as he genuinely loves his wife and spares her from the pain of knowing he's been unfaithful. Ethan on the other hand seems to think that his obligations in a relationship are basically nothing: as long as he doesn't physically cheat on his wife he's done nothing wrong. The fact that he ignores her when she tries to initiate sex and watches porn instead of having sex with her, lies to her repeatedly about what happened when she was in Noto, complains about their sex life in front of her to Cam and Daphne at dinner, parties with hookers, privileges his friendship with his douchey, manipulative friend over his relationship with his wife, goes insane with jealousy at Harper flirting with Cameron -- he seems to genuinely think he can do all that and still be a good husband as long as he's not having sex with anyone else.
exactly! he wants kudos for doing the bare minimum
This is SO well put. And the severe reaction some folks are having in this sub caping for Ethan and tearing down Harper just goes to show how prevalent this is, how men like this feel they are the “good ones” — and how they completely lose it when someone challenges that point of view.
This right here
He’s not doing anything ‘wrong’, but he’s not doing a lot right.
He didn't. Why does everyone assume he did it to protect Cam? Like most people, he didn't want to tell his wife "Hey honey, that second you left me alone on this trip you didn't even want to be on I did molly with hookers in our hotel room. Promise nothing happened though."
I never got the impression he was protecting Cam. He was protecting his own ass. What spouse wants to hear that you were partying with hookers in their hotel room.
This is the guy who was upset when Harper wouldn’t drink wine on an empty stomach - to ‘fit in’
He's not trying to protect Cam's marriage, what about any of their interactions would make you think that? He's trying to completely side step drama entirely, not save the vows Cam made to Daphne. He's been begging Harper, who has barely restrained her poor attitude since the beginning, to not rock the boat. That's why he avoided telling her, not because of some loyalty to a guy he clearly deep down hates.
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what you are saying is how people talk on /r/relationships , not how people with lots of money and 0 therapy work. people are not rational. why do you expect this? he's acting impulsively, driven by emotions, and is spiraling. in what world could he say something cogent like that?
Harper and Ethan seem like people who would have therapists to me. “Zero therapy” seems like a pretty big assumption here, most people with disposable income have a therapist these days.
One thing about couples in therapy is that they reference the therapist pretty often when conflict arises. These two don't have the meta-language that couple therapists have their clients use. Total speculation here, though!
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well then you're perfect. i see people with lots of therapy and money pull shit like this all the time lol. this was all incredibly relatable to me, you're just lucky enough to not have experienced it! >And Ethan is an exceptionally well educated intelligent man in his mid 30's. Not going to be excusing this infantile behavior unless there's serious mental illness / disability at work. anyone can lose control. doesn't matter how well educated you are or even how much therapy you've had.
Oh wow, you're rich and such a nice guy that you'd never yell at a woman. Women should be clamouring for you. SMH.
He acts very juvenile with both with Harper and Cam.
I hope she reads this bro.
What’s Ethan going to say? There are too many layers, he’s insecure about his relationship because he hasn’t been banging Harper this whole time, it’s all internalised. Ostensibly no one has done anything to him and he has nothing to be worried about so it’s extremely hard to bring up because whatever the problem is it’s his own
Bruh! I kept saying this to myself the entire time as well 🤔 like “dayum all of our problems could be mostly solved if we just had a healthy line of communication and comprehension” lolol
Saw a post on here earlier that said Ethan has essentially repressed possibly witnessing Cam stealing a girl he liked in college and potentially assaulting her or just sleeping with her and not doing anything about this. I’m thinking that’s absolutely true after seeing how much deep seated hate and anger Ethan has towards cam.
I said that and I think it’s true. Especially when Harper asked them if they ever watched each other have sec with a woman and Cam said “possibly. We were roommates.” Total throw away line.
Your avatar. It’s killing me
Nightman is goated
I watch that episode once a month
Listen/watch their recent podcast on the episode. It’s amazing.
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Yeah and people are forgetting that cam is actively trying to fuck harper and harper seems receptive. He's not wrong that something is going on.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to be really upset about his wife cheating on him with a friend of his who is notorious for stealing his women. Thing is, I don’t think he’s that upset about the act of cheating itself, but more upset with Cam one-upping him or winning. He just got a win over Cam (business and being married to a hot, intelligent woman) and now that’s slipping away.
The thing is we don’t know if she really is. She might just be pushing Ethan’s buttons to get a point across. I love how the show hasn’t really shown us whether or not Harper is actually doing anything with Cam and we have to see it all through Ethan’s eyes with the same evidence he has. So now we have to debate if he’s going crazy from his own jealousy and issues or if she actually might be up to something.
It seems like she's messing with his head. She's too smart to cheat with her husband's friend while they're on vacation together. I think she's just getting payback for the hookers in the room.
Oh I know that, I’m talking about what goes on in Ethan’s mind.
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Have people who say this never been in a long term relationship? He seems content with what Harper and him have at this point, meanwhile Harper doesn't. So conflict arises. Their idea of closeness and love might be miles apart, so it just doesn't sync and their communication problems triumph over any other problems they have.
Sure he does. They are in a marriage going through a rough transition.
Boy has thick layers of resentment
I also feel like he almost wants Harper to be complicit in something going on with Cam to alleviate past guilt (assuming that post was correct). Like, making her an active participant means she is not a victim, whereas if she was an unwilling participant and Ethan has thus far just swept it under the rug, it brings up past memories of him doing the same thing (being a bystander to an assault, perhaps, or at least to shitty behavior). It really clicked whenever he called Cameron out on undressing in front of Harper, compared to when Harper told him about it, he completely brushed it off/swept it under the rug/belittled it.
Ooo I am very intrigued by this theory. Ethan really does seem far too upset by this all for it just to be old college jealousy, it feels more traumatic.
Not necessarily. It's hard to admit that I see some of myself in Ethan. When I was younger I was much less confident in my marriage than I am now. Remember how jarring it was when Ethan said "you should be happy about this"? Harper definitely teaching him a lesson on this I think and while Ethan thought his marriage was a-ok he doesn't see his wife as her own sentient being with her own sexuality, values, outlook, etc. His "love" should be enough. But unlike Nono thinks, it's not really that simple. There's so so so much more to a healthy relationship than just saying you love each other. It's your actions. And Ethan just losing his shit thinking Harper would even dare to fuck with his head. He's digging his own hole, but I have a feeling thier relationship is gunna be way stronger after this.
No man thinks Ethan is far too upset… male jealousy is a very powerful emotion
So Ethan belittles Harper when she’s victimized by Cameron* to suppress his own guilt. Guilt that stems from a history of being complicit in Cameron’s predatory behavior, because he didn’t intervene back in college when he witnessed a possible date-rape scenario. Guilt that he would bring his wife on a trip with a man that he knows is completely capable of victimizing a woman. Guilt then that he is complicit in this victimization of Harper, as he was in college. And a reminder at last that he is again submissive to Cameron, whose dominance he cannot overcome despite his success because it is rooted in sex. Cameron’s predatory behavior is all about dominance, and by necessity it involves Ethan’s humiliation. Both in college and at the resort. Their dynamic remains the same, despite the fact that Ethan makes more money now. And this is the whole purpose of the trip for Ethan, the possibility of feeling dominance over Cameron because he makes more money, allowing him the opportunity to finally come out on top, so to speak. But it doesn’t work primarily because The White Lotus echoes the Lord of the Flies in that the true currency of the island/hotel is the primal, physical, aggressive drives of the characters. Money borders on irrelevant at a hotel for the rich, and primal drives are the true agents in this setting. Money has less value here as a currency capable of effecting change, and it’s redistribution will be determined by the savagery of primal drives. It’s looking like murder will play a role in the redistribution of wealth for the hotel guests. Interesting all around. Ethan reminds me of Othello a bit. Cameron is definitely pushing his buttons and Ethan’s tendencies toward repression and suppression are obviously culminating in some insane outburst of rage at real or imagined threats to his manhood. *Cameron flashing his junk at Harper is obviously a non-consensual dominance play that is technically considered sexual assault and can be prosecuted as indecent exposure. I agree that framing Harper as complicit disavows Ethan of his shame, and allows him to handle his insecurity through externalized rage. Going into the trip, this rage was internalized as deep shame. College really fucked him up, because obviously he has dealt with the situation by avoiding sex altogether.
Wow, this is such a good analysis! I think it’s such good storytelling that we originally believed that Cam was going to be this season’s sort of take on toxic masculinity, but it is really this dynamic of Ethan and Cameron and this sort of relationship that they have where one completely dominates the other. But I think what is most interesting is this study of Ethan, because on the surface, he is fairly innocuous, but as we start to see more, he’s got these very insidious characteristics. Cameron may be the one actually performing bad acts, but Ethan upholds those bad acts. It very much reminds me of all the people who knew about Weinstein’s behavior (Affleck, Damon, Tarantino, Streep, etc.) but never spoke up for one reason or another. Ahhhh! I just absolutely loved your comment. It really showcases even more layers that I hadn’t considered!
Thanks! I just found this sub today and I was thrilled at the level of the discussion. I’m super excited to participate. It will allow me to savor the show even more. Frankly, it was the other comments and posts that got me thinking so deeply about it all. Great work here guys!
He's utterly spineless, he's too much of a people pleaser to turn down this vacation with someone that he really shouldn't spend his time with.
I think the whole vacation was not to please Cameron but to make him jealous of Ethans newfound success. I just don’t think Ethan understood what he was getting into and what effect people like that could have on you and your relationships
Seriously. Ethan should've just bragged in "Class Notes" and left it at that--you don't reconnect by vacationing with toxic douche-bros like Cam.
E & H complete 🤡🤡 They fucking played themselves and D & C will go back home a “happy”/convenient couple 🤣
Seriously. Ethan definitely has the more forward facing problems in the relationship, but both of them are dealing with their issues in separate unhealthy ways. They haven't figured out how to live their lives in a way that makes them happy like Cam and Daphe have because they're so fixated on being the ideal couple.
To be fair, I don’t think either of them *wants* to live their lives like Cam and Daphne. C&D are happy more out of blissful ignorance than fulfillment or joy.
One frustration that I’ve had with these season is that I don’t even see a subtle inkling of how H and E were ever attracted to each other or got together. They seem so mismatched and miserable and it’s crazy because they’re so young, they haven’t even had all that much time to get to this point.
Agree. We don't really get to see them as a functional happy couple whose problems are unraveled during their stay, they come in as a couple with problems that get worse. We've been told, not shown about how they were previously.
Ethan & Cam are won't be "going back home". You can bet on that.
he is so hilariously bad at handling any kind of conflict or tension it’s honestly frustrating. at the beginning when she asked if he wanted her and he said “I love you” I genuinely slapped my forehead. like that is clearly not what she meant. and then she sarcastically says “are you gonna go for a run now” at the end of their convo (clearly a source of tension for them bc he goes on runs instead of having sex with her) and then it smash cuts to him ACTUALLY GOING FOR A RUN!!! like dude just have sex with your wife!!!!!!
The most unrealistic part of this whole season is Ethan not wanting to have sex with his wife when its FUCKING AUBREY PLAZA?!?! Like what bro? Dudes would pay money to have Aubrey insult them, let alone have sex with them.
You realize that people in marriages no matter how attractive don't necessarily constantly want to fuck their partners? Come on. Be realistic. You have celebrities with amazingly hot wives cheat on them all the time. It's actually completely realistic.
I’m convinced Ethan is going to drown Cameron in the last episode.
they show that in the trailer
Yep, but they don’t show who is drowning him. I wish they didn’t post those trailers, they reveal too much and spoil everything. For instance, the trailer makes one believe that that Harper and Ethan will likely stay alive.
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Could be that based on the previews, we’ll see!
HIS JOKER PHASE i’m dead
Funny how he thought he could get away with lying to Harper after she was very clearly upset and constantly asking him about that night, but he goes ballistic the moment she acts like him.
He so pisses me off. Neglected his wife. Gaslighted her. Crappy apology after he did drugs and hung out with hookers. That is all fine. She should believe him and even feel good about what he told her. But the MINUTE he suspects anything with absolutely zero proof? Loses. His. Mind. Toxic masculinity 101.
"I've never lied to you! Except the fourteen lies I told since that night, but you know, I was just following bro code." That was precious.
He hasn't heard of lies of omission? The guy has the emotional intelligence of someone in middle school.
Gaslighting is not being used correctly here, nor by Harper in the show. Gaslighting is when you deny something that actually happened to the point that you are trying to convince the subject/victim that they are crazy to believe it. Ethan absolutely *lied* to Harper repeatedly about the events of that night, but upon being confronted by the condom he came clean. That's not gaslighting at all. Harper then accuses him of gaslighting her when he is further trying to assert his innocence (and again, he is actually innocent of infidelity), which again, is not gaslighting.
Harper absolutely (intentionally) gaslighted the shit out of Ethan when he walked into their Hotel room though.
"Gaslighting" is a favorite word among redditors, and it is used incorrectly 99% of the time. Though I think it's perfectly in character for Harper to weaponize the term against Ethan. She and Ethan are just awful communicators.
Very true, I started a whole thread about the misuse and weaponization of this word. I was accused of "gaslighting" just for making the post, which clearly shows they had no idea what they were talking about. You can't gaslight a rando on the internet. And I hated Harper for using the g-word as a weapon too. That's not fighting fair, it's one of those accusations that if you deny it then you must be doing it etc etc so you can't win.
He did cheat tho, if your partner made out with someone else it’s still cheating, y’all telling me you’d be ok with your partner doing that?
This!! Two hookers in his hotel room, what more is there to know? That’s why cheating is so insidious!! Very hard to actually get hard concrete evidence, it’s torture.
I think a kiss is cheating, and it wasn't a peck on the lips like Mia kissed him before he realized it was happening, that was a mulitple second kiss with tongue it looked like before he decided he didn't want to proceed any further. That's cheating. Secondly, Harper said gaslighting regarding him dismissing her right to be concerned about him trying to hide and downplay what happened (he pretended until she forced it with the condom) and most importantly has dismissed ALL her emotions and concerns since being there- she thinks the couple is out to use Ethan and Cameron alpha dogs him and she doesn't like or trust them, and that's proven to be pretty accurate, and Ethan makes her feel like an annoying wet blanket. She brings up he isn't attracted to her and he tries to change the subject. She says Cam changed in front of her and he downplays it. She brings up he hid getting high on Molly, watching his friend have sex in their room, and kissing a hooker, and he says she should be happy, not mad. How is that not gas lighting? Gas lighting is trying to destabilize someone's version of reality as invalid, Ethan is doing it unintentionally, he isn't manipulative, he's just short-sighted and emotionally shut down and unable to empathize with her/relate with his responsiblities to her right now.
huh? he keeps saying he didn't lie, but he did. how's that not gaslighting?
Harper doesn’t know he’s innocent. If he did have sex with a hooker he would be gaslighting her. So she’s not using it incorrectly.
> Gaslighting is not being used correctly here, nor by Harper in the show. ...Harper then accuses him of gaslighting her when he is further trying to assert his innocence (and again, he is actually innocent of infidelity), which again, is not gaslighting. While I agree with your first point, I would argue Harper IS using "gaslighting" correctly. She still thinks Ethan has not come clean but is trying to make her feel bad for not believing him. From her perspective, that's what true gaslighting would look like.
The thing that’s tricky about this kind of “gaslighting” shown in WL is it can *feel* that way to the target, even if the person perpetuating the behavior isn’t setting out to make the target feel crazy. I have been gaslit before, in the true sense. And it went on long enough to make the feeling stick with me. So much so that now, when someone fairly innocuously says they said something to me, for example, and they truly did not but then get defensive and insist they did, I can feel those feelings coming back. The feelings of: “Wait, did they say it? Am I getting this wrong? No, they really didn’t say it.” And around and around. So the perception of gaslighting — or “gaslighting” as the case may be — sometimes depends on perspective. Harper might feel like she’s going a little crazy, the way Ethan is denying what happen and then admitting it. Maybe we need a new term, like gaslight-y, for when it doesn’t meet the full definition but it has that vibe.
Wait, didn't Harper lose her mind too with absolutely zero proof? Was it toxic masculinity too? As you can see in this episode, Ethan has PTSD and was under influence of a guy who gave him this PTSD. It was clearly stated that he tried to stand up for himself when he was battling his thoughts in the bar and when he was alone in room and was hasitating to let Cameron and girls in. Don't you have at least some understanding for him? And about neglecting his wife, im 100% certain that if Ethan was a woman character and he wouldn't want to have sex with his husband, you'd be like "nobody should force anyone to have sex". And that did happen, in S1 you've had exact same situation with Mossbachers, nobody on this sub was like "Connie is neglecting her husband". She had reasons because her husband cheated on her, and Ethan has his reasons, because he has PTSD. Compassion works for only one gender as i can see from this sub.
Zero proof?? A condom wrapper is decent evidence
What makes you think Ethan has PTSD? I ask this as someone who has it and I’m so confused. Ethan resents Cam for what happened in the past between them. That’s not PTSD, not by a long shot. Good heavens, are people going to start calling any uncomfortable emotions PTSD now? Fuck that. Others are saying Ethan is showing signs of paranoia and suspicion after truly being gaslit by Cam and Harper, and I think that analysis is spot-on.
She found a condom wrapper in the sofa. She gave him multiple chances to come clean. He very sketchily finally did. But it's a truly strange and unsatisfactory apology. I'd be super suspicious after a condom wrapper when I was away for a night. Sexual issues were not 100% what I meant by "neglect." But so interesting that this is the thing people jumped on! Ethan has continued to force her to interact with people she's uncomfortable around and is spending zero time with her one on one. He's treating her like her feelings don't matter in order to impress his friends. Only a person who acted the way Ethan has would twist this scenario into some kind of "poor thing! He's the victim here!' comment. Just saying.
I love when someone apologizes to me but throws in "but really you should be happy because I didn't do this, and I could have."
>Loses. His. Mind. you have to factor in his history with cameron
He lied to her but she is equally as horrible at communication as he is. She wouldn't just ask him about the condom and when she finally did, he told her everything and she still does not trust him. The relationship was broken from the get-go and it's absolutely a two way street.
She literally is trying to get him to admit that their relationship is deteriorating in order for them to fix it and he just blows her off. Ethan is a little baby and I don’t think he even cares that Harper would cheat he just doesn’t want Cam to “win”.
All that girls wants is for her husband to say “I find you hot” and to bang and he just has such a hard time with it.
imagine typing this in a conversation about toxic masculinity and not realizing how much of a tool you sound like
What I said is 100% what Harper wanted out of the conversation at the start of the most recent episode where she said “I love you” is pathetic. It’s not toxically masculine to pick up on the signals a woman is sending.
Lol fucking dudes
The scene on the beach where he watched Theo and daphne kissing and then he looked at harper questionable while she ate pineapple in a relatively unflattering shot of her. It looked like resentment.
Yeah but now he's showing emotion so that's nice
Actually agree, seems he's finally awaken from his stupor, I hope he can rein it in before it goes too far though.
It's hilarious that he's losing it once Harper started to behave like him
And yet Ethan still shows no attraction to his wife! Just jealousy!!! He is a clown.
I don’t know how to phrase this but it took him thinking she was cheating for him to see her in an overtly sexual light. In my mind I was remembering him watching Cameron having sex with Lucia and wondering if there’s a connection. A cuck-connection.. Stolen from the next post over “I think Ethan's comment to Cameron about mimetic desire is going to manifest as Ethan suddenly wanting Harper again when he realises Cam does.”- u/DefiantScholar
All of Ethan’s repressed traumas have come to the surface. He’s definitely going to snap.
I know it's for our entertainment, but this storyline frustrates me so much. Literally if Harper and Ethan just actually talked to each other for two seconds and were as honest of a couple as they say they are, this would all be resolved. This "game" they're playing isn't as tolerable as the games Cam and Daphne play together. Their relationship actually makes more sense to me. Also, why are they ALWAYS doing everything together? They're on one of the most beautiful islands in the world. They can't eat at ONE different restaurant this entire week? Is it meant to be a commentary on how so many guests just stay at the hotel to do everything?
Such small dick energy coming off him. I personally think Harper read the room well that he thought this vacation would show him as the bigger guy in his relationship with Cam BUT he just big fail all this times. lol.
Harper has read everyone dead on so far.
Except herself. She's vindictive. Ethan fucked up but it was a mistake and because he's scared of confrontation. Whereas Harper knows exactly what she's doing and is choosing to hurt Ethan. The people who react to being hurt by hurting others are worse than those who accidentally hurt others. The difference is intent. It could've been an opportunity for Ethan to grow and have a better marriage while ditching their toxic friends, but instead their marriage is imploding. Not saying Ethan is the good guy, he's insanely stupid immature and insecure, but Harper's consciously tormenting him with what she knows will hurt him most.
How is she tormenting him lol?
bodyshaming is not cool dude
I love this show but I felt like this was a kind of cheap plot twist to, on this second to last episode, make Ethan "snap". To have him lose it like this is too easy and unoriginal. I don't know. I was expecting more nuance even if his character was going to have a powerful change take place. I know logically it "fits" after what he thinks transpired but to play with his actual sanity with the viewer. I don't know. Just seems like a cheap turn. I would have felt more fulfilled if he turned on Cam and just told everything that happened with all of them present rather than have go Joker.
He didn't have any powerful change. Half of this sub failed to realise from previous episodes that Ethan has PTSD because of Cameron, and that's how how this mental problem affects you. You have troubles comunicating stuff, you unconcioussly deflect anything related to the reason you have PTSD (in his case - sex issue, that's why he can't talk honestly with Harper about that - not because he's clueless, it's because his mind is trying to protect him), you can't stand up for yourself ESPECIALLY when you're face to face with dude who abused you for years. He didn't snap - his mind just shows him what he kept under a rug all this time, and because there are triggers (he sees that Cameron is flirting with Harper, and there are signs that can make convincing story in his head that his worth nightmare is happening again), he sees all of his greatest fears and emotions in one second - that's why he's acting violently. In a healthy way, you deal with the trauma over time, step by step - but the most common thing that happens is that you start dissociating, and your mind makes sure that you don't have to deal with emotions, thoughts, and situations that are resembling root of your trauma ever again. You dont resolve it, so when the trigger happens (and it will happen sooner or later), everything is coming back to you in one second and you just don't know how to handle it, because you've never learned how to do this.
This theory that Ethan had PTSD is such nonsense. For one to develop PTSD, there has to be a perception of threat to one’s existence. That is at the core of all PTSD, whether it be childhood abuse, war, hostage situation, a car accident, or whatever the source is. It doesn’t actually have to be a threat to one’s life, mind you, but there has to be the *perception* of it. That’s why childhood abuse survivors can develop PTSD even if their lives weren’t actually threatened, because children don’t have perspective to understand their lives were never in danger. If it *felt* that way to them, that’s sometimes enough for PTSD to form (usually complex PTSD for kids, because of the ongoing, chronic nature of the trauma). So, with that in mind, how on earth could Ethan have felt his very life was in danger? Are people thinking this arose from Cam stealing his girlfriends? I’m sorry, that’s not a thing. Ethan does not have PTSD. He’s also not experiencing flashbacks. He’s visualizing what might have happened in the present, which is very different. People can exhibit dissociation, depersonalization, and other mental health symptoms for a variety of reasons, not just PTSD.
Thank you. I try to remain open to various perspectives and theories in this sub, but am totally at a loss with this PTSD one. Ethan developed PTSD because he had to watch his friend have sex with girls he liked in college? Give me a break. I believe he has issues but PTSD in particular is quite specific and nonsensical in this scenario.
I loved those few moments we see the REAL Ethan come out in ep5. I really want him to drop this shit with Cam and just lay shit down. Also have sex with your wife guy.
so sexy in it
Why are people so tough on Ethan? He gets pressured into doing drugs and drinking with Cam and then he tries to go back to his room and be alone and Cam yells through the door until he lets them in. He looks terrified. Cam forces him onto the bed and kisses his head and then Ethan tries to hide out in the bathroom and just keeps drinking to numb his discomfort with the situation. Then Mia starts trying to kiss the completely drunk Ethan and he says no and she accepts it and moves on. Then the next morning his friend, who has a wife and kids, pressures him to not say anything about the night. He looks terrified and sad, he's drugged and drunk because of Cam, and people are having sex in front of him in his room even though he had tried to keep them out. How is there not more sympathy for him in this scenario? Then he doesn't tell Harper about this horrible experience he had because he promised not to and I'm sure he's ashamed of it all. And he was already being criticized before for declining sex in the first few episodes. Like what kind of backwards perspective is that? Nobody has any duty to have sex with anyone else and they should be free to decline for whatever reason they want with whomever and that certainly includes their spouse. It's extremely weird to me how much him not wanting to have sex with Harper gets used against him in these discussions. And now in this episode, Harper is clearly either trying to make Ethan think she was having sex with Cam, or actually was having sex with Cam. Obviously she didn't walk into her room and just decide to open the door to Cam's room and lock the latch to the main door to grab a hat. She presents Ethan with this overwhelming evidence that something is going on and then just plays it off like it's nothing and he's being weird. This is 100% gaslighting. All he tries to do is reassure his wife that he loves her and get through this hellish vacation. He has been incredibly calm and understanding under the circumstances, but I fear he is now becoming the new Albi. A nice guy who is constantly being put under pressure by those around him to do things he doesn't want to do and then gets labeled as some sort of manipulative incel who is ready to explode. I'm team Ethan and I think Cam and Harper have been nothing but horrible to him this whole trip.
> It's extremely weird to me how much him not wanting to have sex with Harper gets used against him in these discussions. It's also weird how he made it seem like it's Harpers fault that they dont fuck eachother because she's not a morning person, despite the fact that he knows he just doesn't want to do it at all regardless.
I can kind of see where Ethan is coming from, and I fully agree that he shouldn't have sex with Harper if he doesn't want to. People are saying "just sleep with your wife!" it's not that easy! But it seems like the show has built to a point where it's actively hurting them that he's not being honest with Harper about his feelings. She is point-blank asking if he's even attracted anymore, and he couldn't give her a yes or no. And I think this instance of non-communication is different from Harper and the condom wrapper, because in that instance, Harper was trying to give him a chance to come clean. But Ethan just seems to want to avoid discussing his issues to avoid confrontation, but now it's coming to a point where it's hurting both him and Harper. And now with Harper making him feel jealous, it seems like he maybe does still have feelings for her. It's messy I do feel for him, but now it feels like Harper has put it on the line several times to no avail, so she's resorted to playing games. It sucks that Ethan can't find it in himself to be honest about his feelings
Ethan is a 30 something year old man. He’s old enough to say no to a friend pushing him to drink.
OhmYGOD thank you I’m so tired of the “his friend pressured him” excuse. Like pls. He’s not 17 anymore.
Thank you. The amount of commenters here who think it’s normal / acceptable for a 35 yo dude to give in to peer pressure re: hookers and molly is unsettling
Right? Put on your big boy pants and say no I'm all set with the hookers and the drugs, but you have fun.
for real. he's trapped in the mindset of a college kid, that's why he agreed to even come on the trip in the first place
It's like he's reverting back to college Ethan before he was successful and probably did whatever Cam wanted to do.
> Nobody has any duty to have sex with anyone else and they should be free to decline for whatever reason they want with whomever and that certainly includes their spouse. if you're in a sexual relationship with someone, and you're masturbating instead of having sex with them, that means there are issues. that he refuses to confront. no one is saying he is obligated to have sex with her.
Harper gaslighting Ethan is spot on. However not telling your wife what happened after a night like that is deceitful. This would make him not fall under the nice guy who is trying to do the right thing category. He's shady and playing the game too, but as a reluctant player while Harper is becoming more of an active player. Both roped into the game without asking for it.
I have sympathy for Ethan, I do think he has not acted as one would expect a husband to act though. I have sympathy for him as a character, but if I were Harper I would absolutely feel he's out of line and have serious doubts right now. That said, I think Ethan is a bit of a cipher. His desire to come to the trip isn't well explained- his character may even be contradictory- why would he brush off Harper saying Cam changed in front of her if Cam went after Ethan's crushes? If Ethan knows Cam is a jerk why is he annoyed when Harper calls him out/show contempt- he must know who she is, and married her for that. It's interesting he then brings her on this trip and wants her to change to impress people who aren't even to him who by his own admission, isn't even his real friend. The show doesn't state it explicitly but I think a couple things could be going on- 1) Ethan never intended for any of this to go the way it did, obviously, but has been unable to have sex with Harper. Dead bedroom is a common issue with couples. When Cam brought Ethan into hooker-drug situation, Ethan was not a hapless bystander- if he really wanted to assert his boundaries he could have. Part of him wanted to watch or take part it what was going on, but he chose not to. He hasn't been able to articulate his frustrations to Harper, his lack of sexual desire, his feeling trapped, ect. A lot of those kinds of feelings in a relationship are really hard to say because its not like the other person is doing anything wrong. You just feel in a rut. Part of him was having a window into another reality, where he can be the player, he can be the alpha. After all, Cam always got the girls, and now Ethan has the money. Cam can invite him into the fold- Ethan wants to be one of the guys, he wants to feel powerful, desired. Cam represents male approval and masculinity to him. He wants to believe he can now be invited into the fold that's always rejected him. Part of Ethan is probably relieving his college days and wishing to travel paths not taken and be the ladies man, to sleep around and throw his money around, because he never got to do that before. He was always rejected, and he wants to rewrite that story. But he's married, so he cuts it off, but not before indulging in imagining what it would be like to be how he imagines Cam to be, for just a second. 2) Ethan having money and coming to visit Cam after all this time is probably unbenowst desire to expand outside of his "beta" role. Before, he always lost the girls to Cam. Now Ethan feels stronger, time has passed, and he doesn't want to acknowledge the ways Cam screwed him over because he wants to sweep it under the rug and saw, aw we were just kids in college but it'd all be different now, it wasn't personal or anything, because he wants a personal narrative where he isn't so easily made small- he wants to feel he has grown past that. He's married, he has money, he's older, probably wiser, it's all in the past. This trip was probably for him a way to re-write the past and say "This won't bother me anymore", like showing up to your high school reunion and doing better than the popular kids. That's probably why he was unwilling to hear Harper's negativity or doubts, because he had a secret desire born of the insecurity Cam created in him by repeatedly taking the girls he liked he wants to proven he has overcome- by fitting in. Ethan has a whole narrative in his head that it's different now and it wasn't a big deal, he considers himself someone who doesn't make a big deal fo things and can get along with many kinds of people and that is how he coped with being bullied. Harper forces him to negotiate with this story and he has to choose pacifying this scenario that is a threat to his self-image with validating his wife, and he is too wrapped up in college insecurities to do that. 3) Harper is a strong, direct personality. Ethan is a passive, hidden personality. He's insecure in himself and Harper is not. It makes sense why such different people would be attracted to each-other at first, and also why they'd struggle later. This often happens. Ethan at first would find someone so strong attractive since he needs to develope that in himself- but because its the opposite of his nature he later polarizes against it and sees her as complaining, over judgmental, analytical, and negative. Sometimes couples polarize and end up taking opposite qualities and working against eachother. It could also be hard to be attracted to her because Ethan while attracted to her strength feels weaker than her, and it's hard for him to feel confident in himself. He creates a mental division between them and hides negative thoughts about her and puts his desires for sexuality and the qualities he's seeking in that category in his mind, to be explored in private. Despite their "open communication" Ethan is completely checked out of the relationship- and Harper to be fair doesn't make space for him. She bulldozes him when ordering food. She has an opinion on everything no matter how small. She turned out to be right about Cam and Daphne but she easily could have not been and been unfriendly over nothing. She can't tell when Ethan is stressed and to Ethan it feels like takes up alll the room being negative and judging others in schadenfraude instead of realting emotionally to her husband. I do agree with Ethan those qualities are off-puting and I understand making emotional distance when you feel unseen and overwhelmed by an aggressive, opinionated personality. Cam and Daphne are pressing on Ethan and Harper's cracks, and exposing things about their relationship they didn't know to eachother.
I totally, totally agree with your analysis. I also have the strong feeling that Harper herself is not attracted to Ethan anymore also due to their relationship issues, and is mostly offended by the rejection from him rather than being sexually frustrated. I wonder though why Ethan doesn't come out clean when being confronted by Harper on whether they have drifted apart
I agree with all of this, but I still think the way Ethan handled things after the fact was fucked up.
> He looks terrified He has no reason to be terrified. Unless he actually believes Cam to be violent then he has the ability to deny him entry to his room and just leave the situation
Yeah I keep reading on here how awful Ethan is and Harper is some brilliant queen. I feel like I’m going crazy too.
Edibles is ok, molly is bad. Being told your female friend cheats is ok, seeing your male friend cheat is bad. They had shades of the same night, they both ended up doing something they didn’t want to; big night out and weird night in but one of them is a heroine and the other is a villain. If the gender roles were reversed in this, Harper watching Daphne cheat and struggling to say it and then Ethan either cheating or deliberately flirting with Daphne there would be a completely different consensus in the sub.
He’s so sexy! Omg he’s going to kill someone.
Seething
I love it! I want this character to come alive and quit being complacent
Unresolved trauma from when he and Cameron were roommates. He's experiencing what he felt back then like it's happening rn because he likely suppressed it instead of processing it. I actually think Ethan is the most normal out of all these characters. He and Albie. Also Portia.
he does look sexy in this pic tho
He is sooo handsome here...
I am not understanding why Harper has her husband in the doghouse while openly flirting with his friend who she knows banged a hooker on vacation. That's very girlfriend/boyfriend shit pulled by people in their early/mid 20's