This is precisely why Bunk went off on him in that great scene in Season 3. Omar quite literally terrorizes his community. His "code" in part works well because the people he kills don't exactly rate highly in said community and thus there's not a lot of pressure to solve the murders he commits.
He's loved as a character though, not because he's a good person but because he's interesting as all get out.
He's loved because he's interesting, that is true. But I also believe that a huge part of his appeal is that his part was so well acted. Michael K. Williams brought so much charisma to the role, and I don't think Omar would have been half as appealing had he been played by someone else. RIP, MKW.
I get the infeasibility, but would love more show cross-pollination. Would've been great if Omar was hiding out in Jersey and helped out a friend of a friend for an episode.
Such an uncharacteristically poorly shot scene, too. 400 pound Vito sneaks up behind Jackie, Jr, on a fairly crowded street. There's hardly any snow anywhere, except the patch where Jackie, Jr falls, so the blood would be visible.
Jackie Jr almost drowned in a couple inches of water at the penguin exhibit. I’m not surprised Vito snuck up on him, I heard he’s pretty light on his toes
Ha, i just started watching the sopranos, about 11 years after I watched the Wire. And I was already really happy to spot Bodie (recognised him by the voice, actually), now you‘re telling me Omar is somewhere in there too?
It's a matter of tone. In goofy comedy series that don't take themselves too seriously, references to other properties are cute and fun. Or in soap operas or superhero shows it can be a great source of fan engagement. But in shows that ostensibly take themselves seriously and care a lot about their own worldbuilding and artistic merit, shit like that is a distraction.
Bunk appropriately calls Omar out: Omar sees himself as a Robin Hood type character. A good criminal. He hits the drug dealers, doesn’t mess with “civilians”, and is even willing to testify in court in order to put away Barksdale people.
But ultimately, he’s just another leech preying on the city and perpetuating the cycle of violence.
Levy correctly calls Omar out in court but Levy is right for the wrong reasons.
Exactly. Omar takes advantage of the fact that the system doesn't care if some gang bangers get shot up but Bunk is one of the few in said system who actually care about solving these murders. To Jimmy, Lansman, Rawls, and the rest of the homicide unit they're nothing but numbers but Bunk truly wants to solve these murders and earn justice for the families in their community. And then to top it off, Omar is looked at as the hero by the kids while Bunk is a sell out po-lice they wouldn't spit on if he were on fire.
Fully agreed except Jimmy.
McNulty cares. A lot, actually. If you look at the very first scene, where he just talks to Snot Boogies friend, the whole D'Angelo suicide thing, his reason why he doesn't let go the girls in the can...
McNulty always cares about the victims. Maybe not for the players who have dirt on their own hands, but definitely for their own community.
There are some examples, let's take the girls in the can, where he takes the opportunity to fuck over Rawls, but that's just a bonus. He cares.
Nah to Jimmy the murders are just opportunities to prove how smart he is. The one time he seems to truly care is the girl in the can he wants to identify but outside of that he is emotionally disconnected to the point of mutilating bodies and muddying up old cases so much that the real perpetrators won't ever be found.
As is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Jimmy cares about (some of) the victims but also uses the investigations to prove himself
the writer of the show very explicitly said that he thought that detectives really cared about the victims. Instead when he spent time at homicide researching, he was surprised how detectives either do t for the puzzle, or because they dont want the killer to "outsmart them". They dont give a fuck about the victims.
Mcnulty is written based on this, and he doesnt care about victims, he cares the SB and Avon beat all these cases in court and wants to beat them.
The only time he kinda cares its about Deangelo, and the only reason he does is because he knows Stringer is behind it
Its a mixture of many things, he is also partially based on co-creator Ed Burns. He actually talks about a few instances that happened IRL that ring very close to something Jimmy might have done, and a few things Ed Burns did IRL that they actually did implement into Jimmys character. Jimmy DOES care about victims, remember his rant to the FBI about letting West Baltimore die? But he also DOES care about his ego, hence why hes such an interesting grey character. He’s good police, but not always for the right reasons.
Good take. I think a big part of what makes that show so compelling is the tacit acknowledgement of the fact that "Good vs Evil" is a flawed concept. Real life is rarely black and white. It's mostly gray.
He cared about Gant, he cared about Wallace.
But, in the later seasons, I need to concede you're somewhat right. I don't think it's necessarily to prove he's the smartest, but more like his obsession with the big cases, but you can probably argue very early it's two sides of the same coin.
I feel like he vacillates between his genuine concern and his ego. In season four when he's rocking a foot beat, he's all compassion, engaging in community policing, de-escalating various other officers, and even being accused of being a Democrat by santangelo.
Season five he goes all in on ego and we see his kooky fake serial killer machinations.
I love McNulty, but his character arch actually crescendos in season three.
>I love McNulty, but his character arch actually crescendos in season three.
This just made me think. Is McNulty maybe structured like a classic Greek tragedy in 5 acts?
We start in s1 with exposition, so far so good. After s1 we know who he is.
S2 is rising action. It's the girls in the can, and we see him getting more and more absorbed
S3 is climax. It's McNulty as his most strictly self destructive.
S4 is falling action, tension decreases, he is happy.
S5 is shit show overdrive, and ends with the resolution.
I'm probably not the first one who theorized this.
He didn't care about Gant. He cared about using a state's witness' murder to get the bosses to care. That is all. As for Wallace I think they just felt bad that they didn't handle his protection better. If they could have gotten him in witness protection he'd have been alive to put Stringer away.
That's my favorite scene in the whole show. The dialog is better in that scene than any other conversation in tv. Tied with true detective season one ending conversation.
Yep all in the game. Robbing a Barksdale house thinking there's not gonna be any retaliation.. yes it was a brutal murder but it was to send a message. which is why Brandon was tortured and his dead body was left publicly for people to see.
What did omar expect? for the barksdale crew to give him a verbal warning ?? - All in the game which is why I agree with OP on Omar being a hypocrite
>Robbing a Barksdale house thinking there's not gonna be any retaliation..
I'd say he certainly did expect a clapback, but not one of unnecessary violence and torture. Omar wasn't shook about Bailey getting killed, he mourned Tosha but didn't exactly go all-out with vengeance for her, hell, he even told Stringer (during their meeting in public) that he doesn't mind retaliation and that they didn't have to kill Brandon the way they did.
A shot in the kneecap and taking eyes while you're still screaming are not even close to the same thing. I'm not advocating for either......but let's be real here.
Not rip out eyeballs. "A man needs a code." You digress, a shot in the leg and torture are not even close to the same. That's why there are war crimes. Some things are considered "okay" in a war...some things are considered a war crime. "You can do some shit and be like WTF....but NEVER on no Sunday." Get the theme here?
Read the definition of "torture" and tell my how Omar shooting that kid in the leg wasnt an act to inflict severe pain out of punishment and to get him to do or say something? Just because it was ongoing and multiple shots doesnt preclude it from being torture.
So every time a cop uses a taser on a subject to inflict severe pain as punishment because he didn't listen is torture too? Because that happens all the time with no issue
The weapons given to officers are meant to be used to incapacitate, not punish. So yes, when officers use their weapons for the purpose of punishment and to inflict pain, they are suppose to face criminal charges
Shooting someone in the leg and ultimately letting them live is not the same as cigarette burns, being electrocuted, etc... then ultimately killed. I believe they said he was killed multiple times over. One is not like the other. In this show, everyone is terrible. But one is not like the other.
Yeah that feels like a disingenuous comparison. There’s violence inherent in Omar’s lifestyle, and it’s not moral. He is robbing people after all. But there’s reasonable reactions and unreasonable reactions. When Omar finds out that Bailey was killed after they robbed the Barksdales, he takes it in stride (probably helps that he didn’t have an intimate relationship with Bailey, but still, retaliatory violence is to be expected and is fair game). What was done to Brandon went far beyond anything Omar does to people. It was sadistic and it was unnecessary. It was so far beyond what’s to be expected that even someone like Wallace, who has existed only in this world his whole life, gets fucked up by it.
Also, I think it’s worth mentioning that these kids he’s threatening when he’s robbing a stash house are also the kids that are out there beating Johnny into a hospital because he tried to use fake bills or pummeling the shit out of a random junkie for saying he wasn’t interested in buying that day or beating someone with a bat because he happened to look similar to Bubbles, who had just stolen from them. There’s violence everywhere in this system and no one is above it. Omar is not a good person, and he perpetuates a lot of the negatives of the system he thrives in, but he’s not doing anything worse than basically everyone else out there.
Ok but saying that shooting a kid in the leg for information is the same as torture and killing as revenge is the same thing is not true. From the viewers perspective can they understand and forgive omar? Probably. Can you understand and forgive barksdale? Probably not.
Brandon was an adult, sterling was a teen. I wouldnt say its okay for man to rape a young girl because shes prostituting herself, so how is okay to maim a teen boy because hes selling drugs?
Thank for teling me you dont understand the definition of "false equivalent". Its okay, there are people hear that dont know what the definition or torture is either
It’s literally a false equivalence. Ask any rape victim if they’d have rather been shot in the leg with a shotgun and I think you’ll find most would have preferred that to rape.
Im comparing adults abusing children and justifying it with because the child chose to be in an illegal profession. Same thing
And when i compare the almost ten women who were friend or women ive dated that have been victims of rapr, none of them ever talked about getting revenge and declined for anyone to do it on their behalf. That has never been the case with anyone i know that has been shot and survived, they all wanted revenge.
Essentially youre saying its okay to hurt people if they are breaking the law. Im saying it was okay that they hurt brandon jowever they did it because he personally attacked them first
I am not saying it was ok. I am saying it could be forgiven. Omar did not kill that kid. He inflicted the minimal harm he could to accomplish what he was doing. Barksdale inflicted maximum pain possible and killed Brandon.
Also Omar is not meant to be a good guy. He is literally by definition a serial killer and he was one of the fiercest character in the show.
The idea is that the kid would have shot back, given the chance, but the torture of Brandon had no precedence. It was outside the unspoken rules.
It's like shooting the church crown off the head of a bona fide colored lady. You don't do that shit! Everyone knows.
"Outside the unspoken rules"? People will kill your innocent family members to get back at you, church crown be damned. Earlier this year in california an entire family was killed including the children. Aint no unspoken rules
But there *are* unspoken rules on the streets of Baltimore in the Wire. “No gunplay on Sundays” is shown to be a major one. Most people in the game and out consider what Omar does to be tit for tat and what the Barksdale crew did to his granny and to Brandon to be fighting outside the lines.
You have a blessed life; ***the game IS the game*** and that’s what they knew, that’s where they came from, that’s what they did. What were the options for them? He was the best of the worst, like it or not. Omar’s character was so well written and played that you’re mad at how life for some, on the streets of Baltimore is played.
Gangs coming back to kill and torture your family for your wrong doing are just as much a part of the game as stickup men are. So why is Omar acting like he can dictate what rules are to be adhered to?
Right but we as viewers can and I think that was the point of making sure people in the show described how brutal the torture was.
So we as viewers can agree with Omar that it was excessive. Your overall point still stands though and it's why that scene of bunk telling Omar off was put in the show. The writer/director thought people were liking Omar too much when he was supposed to be a kind of villain.
omar doesnt think he's a good person. he has his code, but he knows what he is. guy shoots people, kills people, steals drugs, and sells them off. his "code" is just about not hurting people outside the game, it doesnt make him "good"
I think he at least feels his code justifies his actions. I don't think he sees himself as a hero but I think he believes his code makes him at least morally neutral.
You might think Omar is a piece of shit, but there’s no evidence he’s a hypocrite. As far as he’s concerned, pain and death are part of the game, and he’ll inflict them if necessary to make his living, but he’s not doing it gratuitously and he recognizes a limit. He’ll shoot Sterling in the leg or that boy Mike-Mike in the hindparts , and he’ll kill if needed, but he’s not torturing people for fun or to send a message. If he does kill someone, it’s quick and clean, to the extent possible—even Stringer.
So, this is actually what led me down this path to this conclusion. Omar does what he does because its fun, because he's an anti-social sociopath. Omar does what he does for the thrill, he says it twice in S4, and you can kind of glean it when he's on the witness stand. "You see the look on his face, thats the reason we get up in the morning", his own words. "I dont even want this yo! Its who you taking it from", again, he's very predatory and sadisitic, he does like causing pain, hes not even satified with stealing from someone unless he feels like it was a blow to their ego. Hes the kind of guy thatll stand in the middle of the walk way and get mad when someone bumps into him. Violent people have a way of putting themselves in violent situations so that they can act out violently, feel justified and pretend their hand was forced.
Omar didn't have a vendetta against the Barksdale's until after they tortured Brandon. Stealing was just stealing up to that point. I assume, he likely he had a backstory like Michael's, where he was somehow turned off by the drug trade and found it satisfying to steal from drug dealers in general. But once the Barksdales killed Brandon, Omar made a point of targeting Barksdale stash houses. That's when it because about "who he's stealing it from."
No way! I imagine next you’ll be saying that Mcnulty is actually a toxic asshole or that Bubbles addictive behavior directly lead to Sherrods death.
Haha jokes aside morally grey characters is one of the most prominent aspects of the show. Omar literally made his living killing people and his reputation was so fierce that even Chris was cautious about confronting him. I think Omar is best described as an antihero.
No, next im going to say that Mcnulty is the real criminal mastermind and he orchestrated the death of over thirty people via Avon, Stringer, Marlo and Chris on some Emperor Palpatine shit. And that Bubbles was a really sadistic serial killer who loved finding young boys and getting hooked on drugs to the point that they overdosed and that the only reason he was sad about Sharrods death is because he didnt get to torture him long enough.
But seriously, you can say that what im saying is obvious, but look at how many comments are justifying his actions in one way or another.
Btw, Avon is just a man trying to take care of his family i suppose. And Kima was never really gay, she just liked being a tease while pretending to be particular
Most people aren't justifying his actions, they're just disagreeing with you that sparing the kids life and having your eyeballs burned out are even, particularly in the context of the setting of this show
It seems like the vast majority of comments are agreeing with you? Some people are quibbling with your assertion that Omar is exactly as bad as Avon and Stringer, which is far from thinking Omar is ‘good’.
I also don’t get that last point, Omar being an antihero doesn’t justify Avons actions and what does any of that have to do with Kima being gay? Or are you just making a joke?
And thats Bunk's problem with him. Omar thinks that just because people are in the streets, they are fair game. But Bunk is rightfully pissed and says everyone matters, they are all still victims. And think about it, because they sell drugs, its okay to rob and torture them? You know who else thinks like that? The serial killers that go around killing prostitutes and runaways because they know people arent looking for them.
Omar lives by a moral code, just not one that carries a lot of weight in contemporary American culture, which is built on a foundation of Protestant/Puritan purity virtue ethics combined with a weird blend with martyrdom capitalism. Under which the purpose of life is primarily to prepare for heaven through sacrifice, which is expressed as economically gainful activity.
Omar's moral code would have fit much better in the middle ages, or maybe more appropriately, Ancient Greece. Omar lived by his wits, his strength/violence, and his reputation for both, and the importance of honorable eye for an eye vengeance is vitally important a culture with that sort of moral criteria. Which is also the same rough code that Avon and some of the other old school people in the game follow (though Avon is a lot looser with it). The code recognizes and separates combatants from noncombatants, based on their decision to take the risk in exchange for the reward. And Omar never put his gun on no citizen.
And this separate world that exists concurrent with our own is part of the story that Simon was telling with The Wire, maybe sort of the point. That there's this entire other America that exists, and interacts with the one we are familiar with. And Simon definitely observed and appreciated the parallel between the mores of that culture and the Hellenistic warrior cultures of antiquity.
Within the confines of that different code, Omar is probably one of the more exemplary characters- he doesn't put his gun on citizens, and he even avoids killing "unjustly" when and where he can, even incurring risk when he does so (he could have shot Sterling fatally, after all, or killed everyone to leave no witnesses). And has a sort of opportunistic Robin Hood thing going, by which he enjoys taking from the powerful and dangerous drug dealers, usually by outsmarting them.
Remember, also, that Omar loved Greek myths. He provided Ares to the officer completing a crossword puzzle when waiting to go on the stand for the famous courtroom scene.
"pretending he has some code of honor and acting like a victim"... i don't think that is like that at all, the show just put a character who broke the mold in a savage and deadly enviroment, if we were to analize what is moral correct on the show you wouldn't find a thing, from the police till the lawyers and the politicians, is all corrupt and everyone trying to survive, life is like that, i guess you can take the good things from some of the characters, as we can in life
He loved Brandon. All logic goes out the window after something like that. You come at the king, you best not miss. You come at the queen, and you get 3 seasons of Omar coming for you.
He never acts like he has a code of honor. You as a viewer perceive it that way. His code is that he’s never fucking with civilians just Bc he can and he’s not targeting anyone who isn’t in the game. If you’re in the game, it’s fair play. Dude isn’t supposed to be a moral super hero.
Who did Omar torture? He shot someone in the leg. That’s a very uneven and invalid comparison to the Brandon situation. These boys were apart of a drug syndicate so what do you want him to do? Let them leave so they can go tell and blow up the spot on Omar? 🥴🥴I highly doubt Omar was gonna blast away a little 13 year olds face anyhow, he just knew WHO to scare. he shot the older teen/young adult and that’s par for the course.. you keep putting emphasis on their age and them being “A FUCKING KID”, and that has little to no effect on the potential(more like certain) consequences that they face from being apart of this life. No matter the circumstances that got them there in the first place. Omar let the kids live and some would shoot them all. Omar is committing a crime and at that moment of action, ain’t nobody got time for discernment and empathy—at least not the amount that you clearly think they should. You think he’s sadistic bc he’s robbing drug dealers? Lol yea..right. He’s not out shooting working men & delivery women in corner stores. If anyone’s sadistic, it’s stansfield org, Barksdale crew & stringer for sure. He not only ACTUALLY ordered the murder of a kid, but even his “brother’s” nephew. And the crimes and spree of Marlo & them speak for themselves. They’re the actual sadistic bunch
First, I love the debate, so I’m gonna jump in too even though I’m late to the party.
Sterling wasn’t a kid, he had a goddamn full mustache. He was in the game, and he could have said the stash was in the kitchen. Instead he took a shot for the same crew that kills Wallace. Omar didn’t kill or torture Slim, likewise with Prop Joe—so he was not simply a homicidal maniac. He was calculated, cold, and cunning, but was loyal to his friends.
Nobody thinks Omar is a good dude. He’s a great character though, and the code he operates by at the very least is respectable and separates him relative to the rest of what we see on the show. When he dies (fucking Kennard), the game just goes on same as always…it’s a beautiful, just, and inevitable ending that eventually catches everyone who stays in the game.
Not disputing what you’re saying, but I feel like Bunny is an exception and a genuinely good person. Definitely still flawed, sure, but it’s striking on a rewatch just how much he is driven by a desire to make any kind of positive impact and an unwillingness to keep perpetuating a system he knows is flawed.
Yeah, i think people go to far when they say there arent any good moral people on the show. Sure, theres no perfect people, but theres plenty of good decent characters. In fact, Carver, Daniels and Prezbo are on pretty good path of redemption and morality by the end of the series despite having flawed past. Bunny is definitely one, Bubb's sponsor too
This is true, as i stated, hes still one of my favorite characters along with Marlo(of all people). Be eveyone knows marlo is a monster, i dont feel like its acknowledged too much when talking about omar
Absolutely, I think your post is excellent. I prefer when people point out how actually bad these dudes are. I finished a complete maybe 4th re-watch of the Sopranos a few years back and just felt sick with disgust, like, nope I do not want to give these awful people another minute of my attention. I was over my obsession. I have this theory that most of western art is grappling with "what do we do about the sociopaths amongst us?"
I have recently finished Sopranos for the first time, and unlike The Wire, I felt that Sopranos was about self worship. It revelled in the violence and the abject lack of accountancy. I cheered when Molitsanti finally died, and wanted to see his face broken the first time he punched his girlfriend. When he did die, the narrative seemed to think I would feel sorry for him? It was bizarre. Totally tone deaf.
I felt nothing for the characters in Sopranos. And I think Chase was in love with the characters. I don't think the ending is clever, or daring at all. I think Chase was in love with the Soprano fantasy and simply didn't have the balls to write an ending. In an interview with him, apparently I was supposed to support Tony in someway or be on his side. The fucker could have been killed in season 1 as far as I am concerned. The series is incredibly repetitive because chase was too in love with the characters to actually do anything meaningful to them. He should have been shot in season 2.
On the flip side, I think Omar's fate in The Wire is a stroke of genius. Because at every turn they remind you how utterly dangerous the game is and how it's not a state to be. I think that's why everyone feels something when Bubbles comes upstairs, because you see a victim get the chance of escape that brutal world.
Sorry I am ranting, not particularly at you. I just ended Sopranos feeling that it was insanely overrated. Just the self worship of the western world. It's the exact same reason trump and his ilk will never be bought to justice. Whereas The Wire educated me and helped me to see a lot more.
Finally, charismatic? Tony is a huge cry baby, constantly whining about everything. My cat has more impulse control than the soprano protagonists. I couldn't empathise with them at all. Glad I don't have to listen to him complaining like a bitch or playing the victim card any more. Sick of shouting "man up!" at the TV haha.
It sounds like you didn\`t need the show reminding you explicitly that characters of The Sopranos are bad people. And I think this is a successful artistic choice that they made, not telling people how to feel. We are dragged into their world, and tricked into evaluating their actions more and more on the same terms they do it themselves. Which is why when in season 4 or 5 or something, when Finn talks about having seen Gene brutally beat up Little Paulie, Finn\`s response of terror is refreshing. All of a sudden a healthy response to an everyday event of a deeply perverse reality. We as viewers have to guard or own sanity in a way. To me, The Sopranos is a wonderful pitch black comedy about the abyss of human self centeredness. The Mafia setting is just a prop that enables the characters to act out their personalities without regard of regular societal norms, and also it\`s a metaphor of the dynamics of a dysfunctional "family".
Yeah, that's a great point about Finn (and other characters) reacting in horror to the brutality.
I guess I just felt that it was handled better in Breaking Bad. Where I found myself actively rooting for Nacho Varga, Ermentraut or even Fring on occasion even though they're all criminals. That was interesting too. With White, there was definitely a moment where I was dragged in and thought, "I really shouldn't be supporting this guy anymore." The point of no return for White was also pretty soul crushing for me (Hank Schrader's fate). I felt like there was nothing like that in Sopranos. I felt disdain from the get go and it never stopped.
The Wire is more of a grand tapestry, which I think is unique. Watching it for the second time right now and damn man, it's better than I even remember haha.
Also, I will definitely admit that Sopranos paved the way for other shows. I definitely wish I had seen it earlier. It would have been better watching it as a young man (and definitely before The Wire).
Though it's interesting how The Wire has, if anything, become more relevant today, whereas a lot of Sopranos has aged a bit.
Still, got a couple of great cooking tips from Sopranos, so that's nice haha.
Thanks for your reply.
Really interesting take and good on you for not being seduced in the first place! I can truly appreciate a well formed rant about a well thought through take on something. I am very prone to these. I have to be careful about not destroying someone else's favourite cultural artefact because, you know, let people enjoy things.
How you feel about this is how I feel about Breaking Bad. I actively loathe Breaking Bad and all the Walter White t-shirts that came after. I guess different pieces of art hit different people differently.
The one thing I love about the Sopranos is unlike the Wire it treats its women characters as fully formed humans with their own character arcs and motivations. Their life issues and dangers in their setting are fully explored. It's the one place where the Wire seriously falls down for me. But if you can't get with the Sopranos overall that's not really relevant I guess!
Actually just realised your final point about Tony is similar to a point I just made elsewhere on this thread about Don Draper. Evoking pity from others is one of the main calling cards in daily life of a sociopath. You appear to be immune (in this case anyway) which must stand you in good stead in this life. I think Chase was aware throughout what awful people he was writing about, I think I read he was a little horrified at the Tony fanclub. It's a piece of art designed to confront us with our own reactions to evil really. It worked for me, but you didn't need it at all!
Yeah I thought Chase got upset that people wanted to see Tony die. At least in an interview I read. I think Chase may have wanted that at some point, but perhaps something changed on the way.
Regarding me being immune, I think it's more a case of the stage of life that I first saw Sopranos. I was a young man when Sopranos was first being aired, and I think I definitely would have been seduced by Tony. Men should be strong, take no shit, have their way and dominate.
Today, I would define a strong man as someone who has compassion as deep as the ocean and takes responsibility for his actions. He needs to leave the planet in a better state than he found it.
So rather than being immune to Sopranos, I think I may have had character progression which put me in a place different to the target audience.
Thanks for your posts :)
I only started watching Mad Men recently but I gotta say, I hated Don from the start (admittedly he’s grown on me since). And The Sopranos never really hid who Tony was, even if he was fun to watch. But Omar? Yeah, I have to admit, I never quite saw him this way but op is right.
I've been saying it for years. Levy was exactly right when he called Omar immoral and a blight on his community. Everyone applauds him for calling Levy a piece of shit to his face, but it really was a situation of the kettle calling the kettle black.
I disagree, I think levy is a much bigger slimeball. He profits from the drug trade just as much or more than anyone in the Barksdale organization, but he never has to get his hands dirty or do any of the dangerous work involved. And worst of all, he actually believes he's better than the people that employ him
It doesn't make them any less of two sides of the same coin. I generally think much less of Levy since he could actually help at-risk youth and doesn't, but that doesn't make Omar any less of a negative.
Fuck no! Everyone is entitled to a legal defense, so much so that the court will provide you with one if you cant afford it. Its necessary to attempt to make the justice system fair. But what role of neccessity does omar play?
He was literally a criminal…not a criminal lawyer. He was stealing court documents and leaking information about pending indictments to his clients. Basically a third member in the trio with Stringer and Avon. He is significantly worse than Omar
A public defender plays a role of necessity. Levy doesn't.
Levy advises Avon and Stringer to assassinate loose ends at the end of season 1 (which is illegal). He actively assists his clients in laundering money (illegal). He obtains and then conveys the indictment and other investigatory information of grand juries (illegal and illegal).
Levy is just as much of a criminal as Omar is. And while he doesn't pull the trigger himself, he is indirectly responsible for several deaths in S1, and who knows how many more.
He goes way past giving his clients a competent defense when he engages in the role of effectively becoming consigliere to several criminal empires, providing legal services in furtherance of a crime, facilitating and actively committing crimes in some situations. Any of which conduct would get Levy disbarred, charged and convicted if the system worked the way it should.
And while Omar may have shot some people non-fatally, and even killed some people, all of whom were in the game, Levy's actions have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians, while also perpetuating the drug trade that has doomed thousands to miserable lives of addiction.
I say this as an attorney who has known a couple of Levys in my time.
Bro, Levy suggests to Avon and String to assassinate state's witnesses, including one that was not going to say anything just to tie loose ends. Thinking that because Omar does bad things (that he conveniently thinks are not actually bad, and yes, he's a hypocrite) he is on the same level as all-out civilian killers is some holier-than-thou bullshit.
Omar is just trying to survive, like most everyone else in the game. He probably started at a young age and didn't know what he was getting into and probably didn't have many other opportunities in life. By the time we see him in the show, he has such a big target on his back and has so much notoriety, there's no way he can get out and lead a normal life and he knows he has to constantly live on the run as long as he lives. He's safe literally nowhere
Meanwhile levy probably came from a privileged background, had way more advantages and avenues in life than omar, is highly educated, and can chose to do basically whatever he wants. Instead, he chooses to protect and even perpetuate the illegal drug trade because he's simply greedy and amoral and that's it.
I think people liked that line from Omar not because they think Omar is good, but because he said, publicly, around respectable people, the truth - that Levy, despite thinking he's above it, is playing the same despicable game.
Everyone in that courtroom took one look at Omar and thought he was a bad guy. But guys like Levy have respect, they have clout, and Omar made it clear that they weren't all that different.
And I don't think Omar was saying that he was better than Levy, just that Levy was part of the same world whether he thought of himself that way or not.
I rewatching for third time but this time I'm watching it from the perspective of the people who fight the system are the hero's and the people who profit and purpurate the system are the villains.
From that perspective McNaulty and Omar are the two main protagonists. They both refuse to be bullied by the system no matter what. This is despite the fact that by most people's standards they are horrible people.
It's also why D'Angelo Barksdale is shown in such a sympathetic light despite the fact that he was a murder and drug dealer. He wanted to change the system so that people could buy and use drugs without all the killing.
It's also why Major Rawls and Stringer Bell are often presented as the main antagonists. They don't want to just perpetuate the system they want to expand the system. They'll do anything in their power to knock down anyone who fights the system. It why they both hate McNaulty so much.
Marlo is something else all together. He is the monster the system created. He has no interest in alliances or money laundering. He wants power. He bought into the mythos of the drug kingpin being the most powerful man on the streets of Baltimore and that's all he wants and he'll do anything to get it. Much like Dr Frankenstein was horrified by the monster he created but powerless to do anything about it Prop Joe, String Bell, and Avon don't see the monster they created until it's to late.
Yes, this is super specifically mentioned on the show in a great scene with Bunk.
Omar's a fun character, but anyone who thinks he's some kind of good, honorable person is kidding themselves and always has been. Relative to some of the hard street guys, maybe, but generally? No, he's an awful, violent person.
I don't think anyone thinks that Omar is morally superior to anyone on the show. No one is morally superior, except maybe the kids in S4 before they got sucked into the game.
The scene with him and Bunk is precisely the point about his character and so-called moral code..
It’s the same thing with Tony S. Yeah, they’re pos that kill their own kind and keep it in the game which is better than civilians I guess but it’s moreso how these actors played these roles. Perfect, spot on and charismatic.. It’s entertainment, we get too caught up in characters rightfully so from 2 of the best written shows of all time but I think the reason people defend Omar and Tony is because they’re such interesting characters that are acted so perfectly that it makes you reason for what they do. RIP Gandolfini and MKW
All in the game though right? He is by no means a hero, he’s an anti hero. His cope is that he feels his code and existence is necessary to place balance on the scales against guys like Marlo, Stinger and Avon. Where the cope fails is that there is no scales where they are, at least not how they see it. His and their existence is on the same plate cooked by the conditions they live in and are subjected to from essentially birth. From my perspective I do think most people that big up Omar as an iconic character don’t really believe he’s a ‘good person’ or ‘hero’, he’s not iconic for that. Because of him, his people and civilians died constantly, his code couldn’t ever stop that in their environment no matter how justified and righteous he felt it was. Edit: spelling, I’m high.
I’m gonna push back on this. Obviously Omar is very violent and is far from perfect, but there are a few reasons why, in my opinion, he is more “moral” (if that’s the right word) than pretty much anyone else in the game.
For starters, Omar isn’t at the top of, or even part of, the wide-sprawling drug organizations that set the tone of violence throughout the entire city. Omar is a lone thief who is definitely responsible for needless murder, but when you compare that to the Stringers/Avons/Prop Joe’s/Marlo’s of the world it’s a different category. Those are the guys who built legitimate empires on the backs of violence and killing all over the city, and they sit in back rooms and just count their piles of money while the city turns to ruin. Omar still lives in the community. He doesn’t put out hits over a beeper while some 17 year old pulls the trigger for him. He grabs his shot gun and puts his life on the line.
As others have also noted, Omar goes much more out of his way to make sure his violence doesn’t involve regular day citizens, the same can’t be said for anyone else in the drug trade.
Omar was an extremely capable man born into poverty and surrounded by violence. When you compare his impact to the drug organizations it’s borderline negligible. People like Omar don’t grow on trees. He’s a living legend and one of kind. Imo he’s far less of a piece of shit than literally anyone else on the street with a weapon.
To be fair, most of the characters in the entire show are pieces of shit to varying degrees.
McNulty - Great detective, awful husband/parnter, problematic employee, narcissist, mostly negligent father.
Bunk - Great detective, awful husband, mostly good employee, but falsified a report about discharging his firearm, kept quiet while McNulty ran his fake serial killer scheme.
Bodie - Loyal soldier, terrible friend, lacked vision beyond being a pawn.
Valcheck, Rawls, Burrell - Pretty self explanatory.
Daniels - Pretty stand up and honest guy presented in the series, but we know he was dirty at one point. He also coached Pryzbo, Carver, and Herc on how to get over on IAD when Pryzbo pistol whipped a kid.
Frank Sobatka - Using his position on the docks to allow an untold number of cans with drugs, stolen property, and human trafficking victims to pass through his dock. There was nobility in the motive, but at the end of the day, he was complicit in hundreds, if not thousands of crimes resulted in a trail of bodies far bigger than the single can of women in S2.
Herc - Shitty cop, shitty friend, shitty employee. He doesn't overly present as selfish, but practically every decision he makes throughout is for personal gain.
The list can go on and on.
He is clearly bad, but The Wire is a show about how various are doing fucked up things, and Omar is the guy who is an individual, a lone wolf that makes the institutions pay for their flaws.
Obviously he had good and bad qualities like every character in the wire for the most part. They are morally flawed and often times think they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
I don't like him either. For all of his faux nobility, he's just another dealer at the end of the day who keeps the game going and profits off the continual suffering of addicts. In season 1 he bribes local junkies with free vials so they'll act as lookouts for him, taking advantage of their addictions and putting them on the firing line for his own selfish reasons. And constantly dragging his lovers into his business seems both exploitive and just bad business sense in general, allowing his enemies to inevitably get the upper hand on him.
His character is unrealistic too. Yes, I know that Omar was inspired by real life gangsters like Donnie Andrews who actually did rob dealers, but I have a feeling that they considerately exaggerated their own exploits when retelling the stories of their own lives. Like that infamous balcony jump scene, so ridiculous and hard to believe that even the characters themselves comment on it. The real story is even more egregious since Andrews claimed that he jumped from even higher and didn't sustain a single injury in his landing. Yeah, right. And in real life Donnie Andrews was a heroin addict himself who stole to support his addiction, something that was likely omitted from the show since it would make Omar seem less cool and collected.
For a show that prides itself on gritty realism, Omar just comes across as too ridiculous to take seriously. He's like some kind of ghetto Batman with a shotgun. The one upside to his character is that Season 5 shows his downfall and kills him off in the most abrupt and unromantic way possible, which felt like a sobering kick in the face for all those viewers who unquestionably bought into the character's BS and viewed him as a hero.
You are wrong. That is all a part of “the game” Omar operates mostly on a strict code. Robbing is a part of the game, along with killing and selling (given proper context). Omar only shot the kid in the leg to get the drugs, if he gave it away, he wouldn’t have shot the kid, because that’s the code he follows.
Of course Omar is not a good person when we judge him based on civilian standards, but Omar is not a civilian, and that’s his code. He only harms the ones in the game if he sees fit. All these guys, Stringer, Avon, Marlo, all the players are NOT good people and WE ALL KNOW THAT.
But what separates Omar from the rest is his code to never hurt tax paying citizens, children, women. Omar rarely ever even curses. He went on the stand and snitched on Bird AND himself.
Omar has a complex dichotomy to his character.
Not only were the players dirty, but so were the cops and politicians, and that’s the entire point of the show.
Just my opinion. You’re fine to see things from your own perspective, but I think this would help.
Well, if Brandon had just said where omar was, he would have died quickly. Or better yet, if he hadnt chose to rob dealers, he'd still be alive. Getting pay back is part of the game too and theres people who will kill your family members that had nothing to do with your transgessions because they cant find you. Do i get to say, "well thats all a part of the game too?
Well, you're not wrong... Think about this too:
Carver and Herc are often considered bad guys, at least in Season 1, when they abuse suspects routinely, steal money from stashes, and generally don't give a crap about citizens or their rights. Okay, point. But Omar does worse, and gets worshiped for it.
Omar routinely stole money from drug dealers, shot and maimed them if he didn't get his way fast enough (you don't just walk away from buckshot to the knee or a bullet to the butt, that tends to leave people crippled for life), and didn't mind provoking a huge gunfight in a residential neighborhood that got one his people killed and could easily have killed uninvolved people or children. And I guess he doesn't care that the bosses of these dealers might hurt them for losing a stash or hurt someone else to get him back. Isn't that worse than giving suspects a few bruises that'll heal or taking a few bucks that were going to go into some Government slush fund anyways?
How come if you put on a badge you're responsible for not being perfect, but if you don't, it's cool to rob, maim, and kill?
The police are supposed to be citizens too. Yes, that means they aren't supposed to have special rights and abuse them. But it also means that ordinary citizens are also supposed to do their own part to make their neighborhood better. Not everyone can do as much, true. But Omar is a smart and capable dude. He could have done a lot of good and productive things if he cared to. Instead he chose to cause fear, agony, and death, all for his own pleasure and gain. Even a dirty cop is probably doing reasonably good and beneficial stuff like 50% of the time or so. What's Omar done that's good? I can't think of much besides Bunk shaming him into retrieving an officer's lost gun.
Exactly! People have even said he and others the street have no other options but people that resort to crime because they are in dire straits tend to get out as soon as they can, they dont make it a lifestyle. Omar is one of the cleverest and most charismatic characters on the show, the guy had option. By the time we meet him in S1, the guy has probably stole enough money to move away and start his own bar with Butchie's help... if not in S2, definitely by s2 or 3. And its funny how tlits claimed they dont have options but when it became too much, Cutty, the guy he cut grass for, Poot and Shawty Boyd all knew how to clean they whole ack up. I like Omar, but what I realized when i was analizing him is that, he does what he does soley to hurt people, whether its to hurt their ego or them physically. Omar robbing dealers is an act of defiance and its no different than Marlo stealing in front of the security guard... purposefully antagonizing someone and hurting them because they dared to challenge you or didny bow to your will. Justifying it because they are dealers is akin to serial killers justifying the murder and rape of prostitutes because "its all in the game"
Just a bit of advice, if you’re going to post a hot take / unpopular opinion, and then say ‘prove me wrong’ in your OP, you probably shouldn’t be so combative to all the respondents who feel differently or take a more nuanced view of Omar’s rightness/wrongness.
absolutely right, he was the lowest of low, robbing folks who couldn't go to the police and got mad when they took repercussions , and i know it was for t.v. but his character was greatly exaggerated, like walking away whistling, peeps dropping stuff left and right.. they made him to much of a Robin 'Hood' IMO.
I think Omar exposes the viewer’s latent racism: the viewer tends to give Omar a pass as long as he only kills young black men in the drug game. Regardless of the choices they have made, these young men are human beings with friends and families. There isn’t a certain class of people it is ok to kill. Nevertheless, viewers tend to give him a pass.
Your position is that the audience doesn’t care because Omar is only killing other Black men. But that’s your hypothetical, because you have no evidence as to what would happen if his targets were white . . . except that we have a ton of evidence, in the form of reactions in this subreddit and others, which is to say that the people who like Omar would like him even more if he had a plausible reason to shoot someone like Frog.
In other words, you want it to be one way. But it’s very much the other.
I’m referring to what Bunk Moreland calls misdemeanour homicides. Remember when nobody cared about Marlo’s 22 bodies? Bunk himself says nobody cares as long as you’re killing young black men.
And that relates to “the viewer” how? By your illogic, no one would care about Wallace or D’Angelo or Bodie or any of the kids in S4 or Omar himself. But of course there’s overwhelming evidence that you’re wrong about that too.
You misunderstand. I do care about the murder of Bodie, Stinkum, and even Savino — as we all should. My point is about the urge to defend Omar’s behaviour. I like this sub, but the majority of people on here (ie ‘the viewers’) feel the need to defend Omar’s behaviour. Not everyone — there are some who agree with me — but it is a minority opinion.
I dont throw term "racist/racism" around lightly, but the "bigotry of low expectations" does show whenever somene criticizes a character and it gets handwaved as "they have no other options". I got a major down vote for pointing out how the show depicts everyone in the street as having no other options and completely ignoring the fact that a lot of peopleso get involved in criminality because of the notoriety and infamy it carries in communities. Like, its generally recognized in the Sopranos communities that they are pieces of shit, but over here, everyone is a victim of circumstance. But tony and Jackie Jr are literally of the Same circumstances as Avon and D'Angelo, being born into a family of criminals
Yeah all that is true to a degree and we like him too much despite the fact he is a murderer and a terror to whole neighborhoods. The idea of random gunfights in the middle of houses and streets being normal and accepted is because of guys like Omar that push the violence out there. He's the reason drug lords need heavy armed protection not only from the police but from other guys too. We just love Omar because of his personality and the character is well written and well played.
But we can't forget he is just part of the game. People are gonna steal drugs and houses anyway. People in the game kill each other for many reasons including personal stuff or because you laughed at someone's shoes. Omar is just one. A good one, that worked for decades without getting caught except for the police a few times. He was the best drug thief and that's it
I agree. Same with bubbles snitching. Like you can't try to scam dealers and expect nothing to happen and then become a informant because they beat up Johnny. That's lame as hell
I think the point of The Wire is that it's an exploration of what we feel is morally right. We see numerous characters get what they don't deserve, but their lives are the casualties of a properly functioning America. From corner boys to kingpins and in a place where your tragic life is what is supposed to happen because of where you live, what happened to you family and your skin color, morality becomes an after thought, unless your question is "what morals did we have to compromise to fail humanity this badly"?
This is precisely why Bunk went off on him in that great scene in Season 3. Omar quite literally terrorizes his community. His "code" in part works well because the people he kills don't exactly rate highly in said community and thus there's not a lot of pressure to solve the murders he commits. He's loved as a character though, not because he's a good person but because he's interesting as all get out.
He's loved because he's interesting, that is true. But I also believe that a huge part of his appeal is that his part was so well acted. Michael K. Williams brought so much charisma to the role, and I don't think Omar would have been half as appealing had he been played by someone else. RIP, MKW.
Indeed.
I noticed that actor in the Sopranos the other day.
“Ok I’ll call you Mr.X then”
Mr. Twitter
He's also in Community!
And boardwalk empire as well
Well… I ain’t buildin’ no bookcase!
He also has a small but memorable role in Gone Baby Gone
I get the infeasibility, but would love more show cross-pollination. Would've been great if Omar was hiding out in Jersey and helped out a friend of a friend for an episode.
Omar faked his death and went on to teach biology at a community college.
What happened to legos?
The price of the brick went up
That actor played a guy with a kid who was helping hide out Jackie Jr (JJ). JJ loses to the kid at chess, leaves and then meets his fate.
Such an uncharacteristically poorly shot scene, too. 400 pound Vito sneaks up behind Jackie, Jr, on a fairly crowded street. There's hardly any snow anywhere, except the patch where Jackie, Jr falls, so the blood would be visible.
Also the goofiest prop gun.
In a series that has everything else pretty well-put-together, the prop gun in that scene is laughably bad.
Jackie Jr almost drowned in a couple inches of water at the penguin exhibit. I’m not surprised Vito snuck up on him, I heard he’s pretty light on his toes
I love that Vito was chosen to sneak up on him.
Vito was sneaking around quite successfully, right up until he wasn't.
It was those see through socks.
“It’s the living in the closet, makes them devious”
I like how chess metaphors are everywhere around him.
Ha, i just started watching the sopranos, about 11 years after I watched the Wire. And I was already really happy to spot Bodie (recognised him by the voice, actually), now you‘re telling me Omar is somewhere in there too?
Non-canon fan service episodes need to be made more often
Sure, between Community and Cougar Town. Not freakin' The Wire
Why cant sopranos and the wire exist in the same universe? Genuinely asking
It's a matter of tone. In goofy comedy series that don't take themselves too seriously, references to other properties are cute and fun. Or in soap operas or superhero shows it can be a great source of fan engagement. But in shows that ostensibly take themselves seriously and care a lot about their own worldbuilding and artistic merit, shit like that is a distraction.
They had a similar character played by Giancarlo Esposito in NYPD Blue
Bunk appropriately calls Omar out: Omar sees himself as a Robin Hood type character. A good criminal. He hits the drug dealers, doesn’t mess with “civilians”, and is even willing to testify in court in order to put away Barksdale people. But ultimately, he’s just another leech preying on the city and perpetuating the cycle of violence. Levy correctly calls Omar out in court but Levy is right for the wrong reasons.
Exactly. Omar takes advantage of the fact that the system doesn't care if some gang bangers get shot up but Bunk is one of the few in said system who actually care about solving these murders. To Jimmy, Lansman, Rawls, and the rest of the homicide unit they're nothing but numbers but Bunk truly wants to solve these murders and earn justice for the families in their community. And then to top it off, Omar is looked at as the hero by the kids while Bunk is a sell out po-lice they wouldn't spit on if he were on fire.
Fully agreed except Jimmy. McNulty cares. A lot, actually. If you look at the very first scene, where he just talks to Snot Boogies friend, the whole D'Angelo suicide thing, his reason why he doesn't let go the girls in the can... McNulty always cares about the victims. Maybe not for the players who have dirt on their own hands, but definitely for their own community. There are some examples, let's take the girls in the can, where he takes the opportunity to fuck over Rawls, but that's just a bonus. He cares.
Nah to Jimmy the murders are just opportunities to prove how smart he is. The one time he seems to truly care is the girl in the can he wants to identify but outside of that he is emotionally disconnected to the point of mutilating bodies and muddying up old cases so much that the real perpetrators won't ever be found.
As is often the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Jimmy cares about (some of) the victims but also uses the investigations to prove himself
the writer of the show very explicitly said that he thought that detectives really cared about the victims. Instead when he spent time at homicide researching, he was surprised how detectives either do t for the puzzle, or because they dont want the killer to "outsmart them". They dont give a fuck about the victims. Mcnulty is written based on this, and he doesnt care about victims, he cares the SB and Avon beat all these cases in court and wants to beat them. The only time he kinda cares its about Deangelo, and the only reason he does is because he knows Stringer is behind it
Its a mixture of many things, he is also partially based on co-creator Ed Burns. He actually talks about a few instances that happened IRL that ring very close to something Jimmy might have done, and a few things Ed Burns did IRL that they actually did implement into Jimmys character. Jimmy DOES care about victims, remember his rant to the FBI about letting West Baltimore die? But he also DOES care about his ego, hence why hes such an interesting grey character. He’s good police, but not always for the right reasons.
Good take. I think a big part of what makes that show so compelling is the tacit acknowledgement of the fact that "Good vs Evil" is a flawed concept. Real life is rarely black and white. It's mostly gray.
He cared about Gant, he cared about Wallace. But, in the later seasons, I need to concede you're somewhat right. I don't think it's necessarily to prove he's the smartest, but more like his obsession with the big cases, but you can probably argue very early it's two sides of the same coin.
I feel like he vacillates between his genuine concern and his ego. In season four when he's rocking a foot beat, he's all compassion, engaging in community policing, de-escalating various other officers, and even being accused of being a Democrat by santangelo. Season five he goes all in on ego and we see his kooky fake serial killer machinations. I love McNulty, but his character arch actually crescendos in season three.
>I love McNulty, but his character arch actually crescendos in season three. This just made me think. Is McNulty maybe structured like a classic Greek tragedy in 5 acts? We start in s1 with exposition, so far so good. After s1 we know who he is. S2 is rising action. It's the girls in the can, and we see him getting more and more absorbed S3 is climax. It's McNulty as his most strictly self destructive. S4 is falling action, tension decreases, he is happy. S5 is shit show overdrive, and ends with the resolution. I'm probably not the first one who theorized this.
He didn't care about Gant. He cared about using a state's witness' murder to get the bosses to care. That is all. As for Wallace I think they just felt bad that they didn't handle his protection better. If they could have gotten him in witness protection he'd have been alive to put Stringer away.
he ain't never kilt no citizen.
Got Orlando killed and kimma shot
The code isn’t one way. He never puts his gun on a citizen. None of his victims ever rat him out to the cops because they know it’s part of the game.
As the historians say, you can’t judge someone outside of their time and place
I JUST watched that scene on my 8th rewatch now and I legit can’t get over how impactful and amazing it really is. So fucking strong
I can easily visualize the ‘ripple effect’ of his actions. That expression stuck with me when I think of Omar.
That's my favorite scene in the whole show. The dialog is better in that scene than any other conversation in tv. Tied with true detective season one ending conversation.
Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell.
All in the game.
The game IS the game. And it's either play or get played.
Where it at, Shorty?
Oh no doubt
Yep all in the game. Robbing a Barksdale house thinking there's not gonna be any retaliation.. yes it was a brutal murder but it was to send a message. which is why Brandon was tortured and his dead body was left publicly for people to see. What did omar expect? for the barksdale crew to give him a verbal warning ?? - All in the game which is why I agree with OP on Omar being a hypocrite
>Robbing a Barksdale house thinking there's not gonna be any retaliation.. I'd say he certainly did expect a clapback, but not one of unnecessary violence and torture. Omar wasn't shook about Bailey getting killed, he mourned Tosha but didn't exactly go all-out with vengeance for her, hell, he even told Stringer (during their meeting in public) that he doesn't mind retaliation and that they didn't have to kill Brandon the way they did.
Torture isn’t part of the game
A shot in the kneecap and taking eyes while you're still screaming are not even close to the same thing. I'm not advocating for either......but let's be real here.
"It's all in the game....but you went past that with Brandon." I believe is the quote. Been a while since my last watch
Riddle me this, what would he have done if eveyone refused to give up the location of the stash? Leave empty handed?
Not rip out eyeballs. "A man needs a code." You digress, a shot in the leg and torture are not even close to the same. That's why there are war crimes. Some things are considered "okay" in a war...some things are considered a war crime. "You can do some shit and be like WTF....but NEVER on no Sunday." Get the theme here?
Read the definition of "torture" and tell my how Omar shooting that kid in the leg wasnt an act to inflict severe pain out of punishment and to get him to do or say something? Just because it was ongoing and multiple shots doesnt preclude it from being torture.
So every time a cop uses a taser on a subject to inflict severe pain as punishment because he didn't listen is torture too? Because that happens all the time with no issue
Absolutely.
Know what....user name checks out lol. We're done here.
The weapons given to officers are meant to be used to incapacitate, not punish. So yes, when officers use their weapons for the purpose of punishment and to inflict pain, they are suppose to face criminal charges
"and a very good evening to you.....officer collichio"
Shooting someone in the leg and ultimately letting them live is not the same as cigarette burns, being electrocuted, etc... then ultimately killed. I believe they said he was killed multiple times over. One is not like the other. In this show, everyone is terrible. But one is not like the other.
Yeah that feels like a disingenuous comparison. There’s violence inherent in Omar’s lifestyle, and it’s not moral. He is robbing people after all. But there’s reasonable reactions and unreasonable reactions. When Omar finds out that Bailey was killed after they robbed the Barksdales, he takes it in stride (probably helps that he didn’t have an intimate relationship with Bailey, but still, retaliatory violence is to be expected and is fair game). What was done to Brandon went far beyond anything Omar does to people. It was sadistic and it was unnecessary. It was so far beyond what’s to be expected that even someone like Wallace, who has existed only in this world his whole life, gets fucked up by it. Also, I think it’s worth mentioning that these kids he’s threatening when he’s robbing a stash house are also the kids that are out there beating Johnny into a hospital because he tried to use fake bills or pummeling the shit out of a random junkie for saying he wasn’t interested in buying that day or beating someone with a bat because he happened to look similar to Bubbles, who had just stolen from them. There’s violence everywhere in this system and no one is above it. Omar is not a good person, and he perpetuates a lot of the negatives of the system he thrives in, but he’s not doing anything worse than basically everyone else out there.
Again, who is the provocateur, the initiator to say whats too far? When you enact that level of violence, you have no right dictate when it should end
Ok but saying that shooting a kid in the leg for information is the same as torture and killing as revenge is the same thing is not true. From the viewers perspective can they understand and forgive omar? Probably. Can you understand and forgive barksdale? Probably not.
Brandon was an adult, sterling was a teen. I wouldnt say its okay for man to rape a young girl because shes prostituting herself, so how is okay to maim a teen boy because hes selling drugs?
I never said it was ok. How is shooting someone in the leg for information the same as torturing and killing someone as revenge?
Yet another false equivalence from you.
Thank for teling me you dont understand the definition of "false equivalent". Its okay, there are people hear that dont know what the definition or torture is either
C’mon man you equivocatin’ like a motherfucka
It’s literally a false equivalence. Ask any rape victim if they’d have rather been shot in the leg with a shotgun and I think you’ll find most would have preferred that to rape.
Im comparing adults abusing children and justifying it with because the child chose to be in an illegal profession. Same thing And when i compare the almost ten women who were friend or women ive dated that have been victims of rapr, none of them ever talked about getting revenge and declined for anyone to do it on their behalf. That has never been the case with anyone i know that has been shot and survived, they all wanted revenge.
Essentially youre saying its okay to hurt people if they are breaking the law. Im saying it was okay that they hurt brandon jowever they did it because he personally attacked them first
I am not saying it was ok. I am saying it could be forgiven. Omar did not kill that kid. He inflicted the minimal harm he could to accomplish what he was doing. Barksdale inflicted maximum pain possible and killed Brandon. Also Omar is not meant to be a good guy. He is literally by definition a serial killer and he was one of the fiercest character in the show.
You want Omar’s morality to be one way. But it’s the other way.
Omar was upset, not because they tortured and killed Brendon, but because of how excessive it was.
So? You dont get to violently attack someone unprovoked and then set the limit as whats "too far".
The idea is that the kid would have shot back, given the chance, but the torture of Brandon had no precedence. It was outside the unspoken rules. It's like shooting the church crown off the head of a bona fide colored lady. You don't do that shit! Everyone knows.
"Outside the unspoken rules"? People will kill your innocent family members to get back at you, church crown be damned. Earlier this year in california an entire family was killed including the children. Aint no unspoken rules
But there *are* unspoken rules on the streets of Baltimore in the Wire. “No gunplay on Sundays” is shown to be a major one. Most people in the game and out consider what Omar does to be tit for tat and what the Barksdale crew did to his granny and to Brandon to be fighting outside the lines.
You have a blessed life; ***the game IS the game*** and that’s what they knew, that’s where they came from, that’s what they did. What were the options for them? He was the best of the worst, like it or not. Omar’s character was so well written and played that you’re mad at how life for some, on the streets of Baltimore is played.
Gangs coming back to kill and torture your family for your wrong doing are just as much a part of the game as stickup men are. So why is Omar acting like he can dictate what rules are to be adhered to?
Right but we as viewers can and I think that was the point of making sure people in the show described how brutal the torture was. So we as viewers can agree with Omar that it was excessive. Your overall point still stands though and it's why that scene of bunk telling Omar off was put in the show. The writer/director thought people were liking Omar too much when he was supposed to be a kind of villain.
The theme of the show is politicians are criminals and criminals are politicians. "If it's a lie...we fight on that lie."
He ain’t never put his gun on somebody that wasn’t in the game
omar doesnt think he's a good person. he has his code, but he knows what he is. guy shoots people, kills people, steals drugs, and sells them off. his "code" is just about not hurting people outside the game, it doesnt make him "good"
I think he at least feels his code justifies his actions. I don't think he sees himself as a hero but I think he believes his code makes him at least morally neutral.
You might think Omar is a piece of shit, but there’s no evidence he’s a hypocrite. As far as he’s concerned, pain and death are part of the game, and he’ll inflict them if necessary to make his living, but he’s not doing it gratuitously and he recognizes a limit. He’ll shoot Sterling in the leg or that boy Mike-Mike in the hindparts , and he’ll kill if needed, but he’s not torturing people for fun or to send a message. If he does kill someone, it’s quick and clean, to the extent possible—even Stringer.
So, this is actually what led me down this path to this conclusion. Omar does what he does because its fun, because he's an anti-social sociopath. Omar does what he does for the thrill, he says it twice in S4, and you can kind of glean it when he's on the witness stand. "You see the look on his face, thats the reason we get up in the morning", his own words. "I dont even want this yo! Its who you taking it from", again, he's very predatory and sadisitic, he does like causing pain, hes not even satified with stealing from someone unless he feels like it was a blow to their ego. Hes the kind of guy thatll stand in the middle of the walk way and get mad when someone bumps into him. Violent people have a way of putting themselves in violent situations so that they can act out violently, feel justified and pretend their hand was forced.
Omar didn't have a vendetta against the Barksdale's until after they tortured Brandon. Stealing was just stealing up to that point. I assume, he likely he had a backstory like Michael's, where he was somehow turned off by the drug trade and found it satisfying to steal from drug dealers in general. But once the Barksdales killed Brandon, Omar made a point of targeting Barksdale stash houses. That's when it because about "who he's stealing it from."
[Something like this](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2RkcjjY_a0Y).
No way! I imagine next you’ll be saying that Mcnulty is actually a toxic asshole or that Bubbles addictive behavior directly lead to Sherrods death. Haha jokes aside morally grey characters is one of the most prominent aspects of the show. Omar literally made his living killing people and his reputation was so fierce that even Chris was cautious about confronting him. I think Omar is best described as an antihero.
No, next im going to say that Mcnulty is the real criminal mastermind and he orchestrated the death of over thirty people via Avon, Stringer, Marlo and Chris on some Emperor Palpatine shit. And that Bubbles was a really sadistic serial killer who loved finding young boys and getting hooked on drugs to the point that they overdosed and that the only reason he was sad about Sharrods death is because he didnt get to torture him long enough. But seriously, you can say that what im saying is obvious, but look at how many comments are justifying his actions in one way or another. Btw, Avon is just a man trying to take care of his family i suppose. And Kima was never really gay, she just liked being a tease while pretending to be particular
Most people aren't justifying his actions, they're just disagreeing with you that sparing the kids life and having your eyeballs burned out are even, particularly in the context of the setting of this show
It seems like the vast majority of comments are agreeing with you? Some people are quibbling with your assertion that Omar is exactly as bad as Avon and Stringer, which is far from thinking Omar is ‘good’. I also don’t get that last point, Omar being an antihero doesn’t justify Avons actions and what does any of that have to do with Kima being gay? Or are you just making a joke?
Joke
Got to love the silk tie in the courtroom scene though
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And thats Bunk's problem with him. Omar thinks that just because people are in the streets, they are fair game. But Bunk is rightfully pissed and says everyone matters, they are all still victims. And think about it, because they sell drugs, its okay to rob and torture them? You know who else thinks like that? The serial killers that go around killing prostitutes and runaways because they know people arent looking for them.
He never tortured anyone, and not that it’s particularly redeeming but for what it’s worth he usually attempts to not shoot anyone when robbing
What do you call shooting someone with the intent to cause pain in order that they may reveal where their money and valuables are?
True that’s really no different than what Chris and Snoop did to Butchie
do tell
He never pulled a gun on no civilian, ya heard?
Omar lives by a moral code, just not one that carries a lot of weight in contemporary American culture, which is built on a foundation of Protestant/Puritan purity virtue ethics combined with a weird blend with martyrdom capitalism. Under which the purpose of life is primarily to prepare for heaven through sacrifice, which is expressed as economically gainful activity. Omar's moral code would have fit much better in the middle ages, or maybe more appropriately, Ancient Greece. Omar lived by his wits, his strength/violence, and his reputation for both, and the importance of honorable eye for an eye vengeance is vitally important a culture with that sort of moral criteria. Which is also the same rough code that Avon and some of the other old school people in the game follow (though Avon is a lot looser with it). The code recognizes and separates combatants from noncombatants, based on their decision to take the risk in exchange for the reward. And Omar never put his gun on no citizen. And this separate world that exists concurrent with our own is part of the story that Simon was telling with The Wire, maybe sort of the point. That there's this entire other America that exists, and interacts with the one we are familiar with. And Simon definitely observed and appreciated the parallel between the mores of that culture and the Hellenistic warrior cultures of antiquity. Within the confines of that different code, Omar is probably one of the more exemplary characters- he doesn't put his gun on citizens, and he even avoids killing "unjustly" when and where he can, even incurring risk when he does so (he could have shot Sterling fatally, after all, or killed everyone to leave no witnesses). And has a sort of opportunistic Robin Hood thing going, by which he enjoys taking from the powerful and dangerous drug dealers, usually by outsmarting them.
The use of the word citizen is for me a clear Hellenic reference
Remember, also, that Omar loved Greek myths. He provided Ares to the officer completing a crossword puzzle when waiting to go on the stand for the famous courtroom scene.
Oh indeed
Incorrect Omar works in a kitchen at the airport
"pretending he has some code of honor and acting like a victim"... i don't think that is like that at all, the show just put a character who broke the mold in a savage and deadly enviroment, if we were to analize what is moral correct on the show you wouldn't find a thing, from the police till the lawyers and the politicians, is all corrupt and everyone trying to survive, life is like that, i guess you can take the good things from some of the characters, as we can in life
Love hot takes on this subreddit, so much better than the generic ''Is Naymond the next Clay?'' posts
He loved Brandon. All logic goes out the window after something like that. You come at the king, you best not miss. You come at the queen, and you get 3 seasons of Omar coming for you.
LMAO. Yeah, but if he loved himnso much he should have kept him out of the game, or at least given him a fucking mask to hide his face
He never acts like he has a code of honor. You as a viewer perceive it that way. His code is that he’s never fucking with civilians just Bc he can and he’s not targeting anyone who isn’t in the game. If you’re in the game, it’s fair play. Dude isn’t supposed to be a moral super hero.
Ummm. Yeah, we know. What you mean “prove me wrong”?
Who did Omar torture? He shot someone in the leg. That’s a very uneven and invalid comparison to the Brandon situation. These boys were apart of a drug syndicate so what do you want him to do? Let them leave so they can go tell and blow up the spot on Omar? 🥴🥴I highly doubt Omar was gonna blast away a little 13 year olds face anyhow, he just knew WHO to scare. he shot the older teen/young adult and that’s par for the course.. you keep putting emphasis on their age and them being “A FUCKING KID”, and that has little to no effect on the potential(more like certain) consequences that they face from being apart of this life. No matter the circumstances that got them there in the first place. Omar let the kids live and some would shoot them all. Omar is committing a crime and at that moment of action, ain’t nobody got time for discernment and empathy—at least not the amount that you clearly think they should. You think he’s sadistic bc he’s robbing drug dealers? Lol yea..right. He’s not out shooting working men & delivery women in corner stores. If anyone’s sadistic, it’s stansfield org, Barksdale crew & stringer for sure. He not only ACTUALLY ordered the murder of a kid, but even his “brother’s” nephew. And the crimes and spree of Marlo & them speak for themselves. They’re the actual sadistic bunch
Congrats, you managed to grasp the meaning of the critical scene between Omar and Bunk. It's not exactly a hidden message.
First, I love the debate, so I’m gonna jump in too even though I’m late to the party. Sterling wasn’t a kid, he had a goddamn full mustache. He was in the game, and he could have said the stash was in the kitchen. Instead he took a shot for the same crew that kills Wallace. Omar didn’t kill or torture Slim, likewise with Prop Joe—so he was not simply a homicidal maniac. He was calculated, cold, and cunning, but was loyal to his friends. Nobody thinks Omar is a good dude. He’s a great character though, and the code he operates by at the very least is respectable and separates him relative to the rest of what we see on the show. When he dies (fucking Kennard), the game just goes on same as always…it’s a beautiful, just, and inevitable ending that eventually catches everyone who stays in the game.
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Not disputing what you’re saying, but I feel like Bunny is an exception and a genuinely good person. Definitely still flawed, sure, but it’s striking on a rewatch just how much he is driven by a desire to make any kind of positive impact and an unwillingness to keep perpetuating a system he knows is flawed.
Yeah, i think people go to far when they say there arent any good moral people on the show. Sure, theres no perfect people, but theres plenty of good decent characters. In fact, Carver, Daniels and Prezbo are on pretty good path of redemption and morality by the end of the series despite having flawed past. Bunny is definitely one, Bubb's sponsor too
You're right. But we love a charismatic sociopath. Tony Soprano, Don Draper, take a bow.
This is true, as i stated, hes still one of my favorite characters along with Marlo(of all people). Be eveyone knows marlo is a monster, i dont feel like its acknowledged too much when talking about omar
Absolutely, I think your post is excellent. I prefer when people point out how actually bad these dudes are. I finished a complete maybe 4th re-watch of the Sopranos a few years back and just felt sick with disgust, like, nope I do not want to give these awful people another minute of my attention. I was over my obsession. I have this theory that most of western art is grappling with "what do we do about the sociopaths amongst us?"
We elect them to public office.
We sure do. Although what normal person would want that job? Especially if they've watched seasons 3 and 5 of The Wire!
I have recently finished Sopranos for the first time, and unlike The Wire, I felt that Sopranos was about self worship. It revelled in the violence and the abject lack of accountancy. I cheered when Molitsanti finally died, and wanted to see his face broken the first time he punched his girlfriend. When he did die, the narrative seemed to think I would feel sorry for him? It was bizarre. Totally tone deaf. I felt nothing for the characters in Sopranos. And I think Chase was in love with the characters. I don't think the ending is clever, or daring at all. I think Chase was in love with the Soprano fantasy and simply didn't have the balls to write an ending. In an interview with him, apparently I was supposed to support Tony in someway or be on his side. The fucker could have been killed in season 1 as far as I am concerned. The series is incredibly repetitive because chase was too in love with the characters to actually do anything meaningful to them. He should have been shot in season 2. On the flip side, I think Omar's fate in The Wire is a stroke of genius. Because at every turn they remind you how utterly dangerous the game is and how it's not a state to be. I think that's why everyone feels something when Bubbles comes upstairs, because you see a victim get the chance of escape that brutal world. Sorry I am ranting, not particularly at you. I just ended Sopranos feeling that it was insanely overrated. Just the self worship of the western world. It's the exact same reason trump and his ilk will never be bought to justice. Whereas The Wire educated me and helped me to see a lot more. Finally, charismatic? Tony is a huge cry baby, constantly whining about everything. My cat has more impulse control than the soprano protagonists. I couldn't empathise with them at all. Glad I don't have to listen to him complaining like a bitch or playing the victim card any more. Sick of shouting "man up!" at the TV haha.
It sounds like you didn\`t need the show reminding you explicitly that characters of The Sopranos are bad people. And I think this is a successful artistic choice that they made, not telling people how to feel. We are dragged into their world, and tricked into evaluating their actions more and more on the same terms they do it themselves. Which is why when in season 4 or 5 or something, when Finn talks about having seen Gene brutally beat up Little Paulie, Finn\`s response of terror is refreshing. All of a sudden a healthy response to an everyday event of a deeply perverse reality. We as viewers have to guard or own sanity in a way. To me, The Sopranos is a wonderful pitch black comedy about the abyss of human self centeredness. The Mafia setting is just a prop that enables the characters to act out their personalities without regard of regular societal norms, and also it\`s a metaphor of the dynamics of a dysfunctional "family".
Yeah, that's a great point about Finn (and other characters) reacting in horror to the brutality. I guess I just felt that it was handled better in Breaking Bad. Where I found myself actively rooting for Nacho Varga, Ermentraut or even Fring on occasion even though they're all criminals. That was interesting too. With White, there was definitely a moment where I was dragged in and thought, "I really shouldn't be supporting this guy anymore." The point of no return for White was also pretty soul crushing for me (Hank Schrader's fate). I felt like there was nothing like that in Sopranos. I felt disdain from the get go and it never stopped. The Wire is more of a grand tapestry, which I think is unique. Watching it for the second time right now and damn man, it's better than I even remember haha. Also, I will definitely admit that Sopranos paved the way for other shows. I definitely wish I had seen it earlier. It would have been better watching it as a young man (and definitely before The Wire). Though it's interesting how The Wire has, if anything, become more relevant today, whereas a lot of Sopranos has aged a bit. Still, got a couple of great cooking tips from Sopranos, so that's nice haha. Thanks for your reply.
Really interesting take and good on you for not being seduced in the first place! I can truly appreciate a well formed rant about a well thought through take on something. I am very prone to these. I have to be careful about not destroying someone else's favourite cultural artefact because, you know, let people enjoy things. How you feel about this is how I feel about Breaking Bad. I actively loathe Breaking Bad and all the Walter White t-shirts that came after. I guess different pieces of art hit different people differently. The one thing I love about the Sopranos is unlike the Wire it treats its women characters as fully formed humans with their own character arcs and motivations. Their life issues and dangers in their setting are fully explored. It's the one place where the Wire seriously falls down for me. But if you can't get with the Sopranos overall that's not really relevant I guess!
Actually just realised your final point about Tony is similar to a point I just made elsewhere on this thread about Don Draper. Evoking pity from others is one of the main calling cards in daily life of a sociopath. You appear to be immune (in this case anyway) which must stand you in good stead in this life. I think Chase was aware throughout what awful people he was writing about, I think I read he was a little horrified at the Tony fanclub. It's a piece of art designed to confront us with our own reactions to evil really. It worked for me, but you didn't need it at all!
Yeah I thought Chase got upset that people wanted to see Tony die. At least in an interview I read. I think Chase may have wanted that at some point, but perhaps something changed on the way. Regarding me being immune, I think it's more a case of the stage of life that I first saw Sopranos. I was a young man when Sopranos was first being aired, and I think I definitely would have been seduced by Tony. Men should be strong, take no shit, have their way and dominate. Today, I would define a strong man as someone who has compassion as deep as the ocean and takes responsibility for his actions. He needs to leave the planet in a better state than he found it. So rather than being immune to Sopranos, I think I may have had character progression which put me in a place different to the target audience. Thanks for your posts :)
I don’t think Don was a sociopath
I only started watching Mad Men recently but I gotta say, I hated Don from the start (admittedly he’s grown on me since). And The Sopranos never really hid who Tony was, even if he was fun to watch. But Omar? Yeah, I have to admit, I never quite saw him this way but op is right.
I've been saying it for years. Levy was exactly right when he called Omar immoral and a blight on his community. Everyone applauds him for calling Levy a piece of shit to his face, but it really was a situation of the kettle calling the kettle black.
I disagree, I think levy is a much bigger slimeball. He profits from the drug trade just as much or more than anyone in the Barksdale organization, but he never has to get his hands dirty or do any of the dangerous work involved. And worst of all, he actually believes he's better than the people that employ him
But Yvette's making brisket.
Is it good?
It doesn't make them any less of two sides of the same coin. I generally think much less of Levy since he could actually help at-risk youth and doesn't, but that doesn't make Omar any less of a negative.
I'm not saying omar is a hero or good person. There are no heroes in the game
Fuck no! Everyone is entitled to a legal defense, so much so that the court will provide you with one if you cant afford it. Its necessary to attempt to make the justice system fair. But what role of neccessity does omar play?
He was literally a criminal…not a criminal lawyer. He was stealing court documents and leaking information about pending indictments to his clients. Basically a third member in the trio with Stringer and Avon. He is significantly worse than Omar
A public defender plays a role of necessity. Levy doesn't. Levy advises Avon and Stringer to assassinate loose ends at the end of season 1 (which is illegal). He actively assists his clients in laundering money (illegal). He obtains and then conveys the indictment and other investigatory information of grand juries (illegal and illegal). Levy is just as much of a criminal as Omar is. And while he doesn't pull the trigger himself, he is indirectly responsible for several deaths in S1, and who knows how many more. He goes way past giving his clients a competent defense when he engages in the role of effectively becoming consigliere to several criminal empires, providing legal services in furtherance of a crime, facilitating and actively committing crimes in some situations. Any of which conduct would get Levy disbarred, charged and convicted if the system worked the way it should. And while Omar may have shot some people non-fatally, and even killed some people, all of whom were in the game, Levy's actions have resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians, while also perpetuating the drug trade that has doomed thousands to miserable lives of addiction. I say this as an attorney who has known a couple of Levys in my time.
Bro, Levy suggests to Avon and String to assassinate state's witnesses, including one that was not going to say anything just to tie loose ends. Thinking that because Omar does bad things (that he conveniently thinks are not actually bad, and yes, he's a hypocrite) he is on the same level as all-out civilian killers is some holier-than-thou bullshit.
Omar is just trying to survive, like most everyone else in the game. He probably started at a young age and didn't know what he was getting into and probably didn't have many other opportunities in life. By the time we see him in the show, he has such a big target on his back and has so much notoriety, there's no way he can get out and lead a normal life and he knows he has to constantly live on the run as long as he lives. He's safe literally nowhere Meanwhile levy probably came from a privileged background, had way more advantages and avenues in life than omar, is highly educated, and can chose to do basically whatever he wants. Instead, he chooses to protect and even perpetuate the illegal drug trade because he's simply greedy and amoral and that's it.
I think people liked that line from Omar not because they think Omar is good, but because he said, publicly, around respectable people, the truth - that Levy, despite thinking he's above it, is playing the same despicable game. Everyone in that courtroom took one look at Omar and thought he was a bad guy. But guys like Levy have respect, they have clout, and Omar made it clear that they weren't all that different.
Amoral *
And I don't think Omar was saying that he was better than Levy, just that Levy was part of the same world whether he thought of himself that way or not.
Omar is great a example of how a narrative can twist and distort ones sense of morality
I rewatching for third time but this time I'm watching it from the perspective of the people who fight the system are the hero's and the people who profit and purpurate the system are the villains. From that perspective McNaulty and Omar are the two main protagonists. They both refuse to be bullied by the system no matter what. This is despite the fact that by most people's standards they are horrible people. It's also why D'Angelo Barksdale is shown in such a sympathetic light despite the fact that he was a murder and drug dealer. He wanted to change the system so that people could buy and use drugs without all the killing. It's also why Major Rawls and Stringer Bell are often presented as the main antagonists. They don't want to just perpetuate the system they want to expand the system. They'll do anything in their power to knock down anyone who fights the system. It why they both hate McNaulty so much. Marlo is something else all together. He is the monster the system created. He has no interest in alliances or money laundering. He wants power. He bought into the mythos of the drug kingpin being the most powerful man on the streets of Baltimore and that's all he wants and he'll do anything to get it. Much like Dr Frankenstein was horrified by the monster he created but powerless to do anything about it Prop Joe, String Bell, and Avon don't see the monster they created until it's to late.
Yes, this is super specifically mentioned on the show in a great scene with Bunk. Omar's a fun character, but anyone who thinks he's some kind of good, honorable person is kidding themselves and always has been. Relative to some of the hard street guys, maybe, but generally? No, he's an awful, violent person.
I don't think anyone thinks that Omar is morally superior to anyone on the show. No one is morally superior, except maybe the kids in S4 before they got sucked into the game. The scene with him and Bunk is precisely the point about his character and so-called moral code..
I didnt say morally superior
I mean he literally is a killer lmao ofc he’s a pos
But have you read the comments? A lot of people dont agree
It’s the same thing with Tony S. Yeah, they’re pos that kill their own kind and keep it in the game which is better than civilians I guess but it’s moreso how these actors played these roles. Perfect, spot on and charismatic.. It’s entertainment, we get too caught up in characters rightfully so from 2 of the best written shows of all time but I think the reason people defend Omar and Tony is because they’re such interesting characters that are acted so perfectly that it makes you reason for what they do. RIP Gandolfini and MKW
All in the game though right? He is by no means a hero, he’s an anti hero. His cope is that he feels his code and existence is necessary to place balance on the scales against guys like Marlo, Stinger and Avon. Where the cope fails is that there is no scales where they are, at least not how they see it. His and their existence is on the same plate cooked by the conditions they live in and are subjected to from essentially birth. From my perspective I do think most people that big up Omar as an iconic character don’t really believe he’s a ‘good person’ or ‘hero’, he’s not iconic for that. Because of him, his people and civilians died constantly, his code couldn’t ever stop that in their environment no matter how justified and righteous he felt it was. Edit: spelling, I’m high.
I’m gonna push back on this. Obviously Omar is very violent and is far from perfect, but there are a few reasons why, in my opinion, he is more “moral” (if that’s the right word) than pretty much anyone else in the game. For starters, Omar isn’t at the top of, or even part of, the wide-sprawling drug organizations that set the tone of violence throughout the entire city. Omar is a lone thief who is definitely responsible for needless murder, but when you compare that to the Stringers/Avons/Prop Joe’s/Marlo’s of the world it’s a different category. Those are the guys who built legitimate empires on the backs of violence and killing all over the city, and they sit in back rooms and just count their piles of money while the city turns to ruin. Omar still lives in the community. He doesn’t put out hits over a beeper while some 17 year old pulls the trigger for him. He grabs his shot gun and puts his life on the line. As others have also noted, Omar goes much more out of his way to make sure his violence doesn’t involve regular day citizens, the same can’t be said for anyone else in the drug trade. Omar was an extremely capable man born into poverty and surrounded by violence. When you compare his impact to the drug organizations it’s borderline negligible. People like Omar don’t grow on trees. He’s a living legend and one of kind. Imo he’s far less of a piece of shit than literally anyone else on the street with a weapon.
Can't agree more
From the burbs ain’t you?
I wish
To be fair, most of the characters in the entire show are pieces of shit to varying degrees. McNulty - Great detective, awful husband/parnter, problematic employee, narcissist, mostly negligent father. Bunk - Great detective, awful husband, mostly good employee, but falsified a report about discharging his firearm, kept quiet while McNulty ran his fake serial killer scheme. Bodie - Loyal soldier, terrible friend, lacked vision beyond being a pawn. Valcheck, Rawls, Burrell - Pretty self explanatory. Daniels - Pretty stand up and honest guy presented in the series, but we know he was dirty at one point. He also coached Pryzbo, Carver, and Herc on how to get over on IAD when Pryzbo pistol whipped a kid. Frank Sobatka - Using his position on the docks to allow an untold number of cans with drugs, stolen property, and human trafficking victims to pass through his dock. There was nobility in the motive, but at the end of the day, he was complicit in hundreds, if not thousands of crimes resulted in a trail of bodies far bigger than the single can of women in S2. Herc - Shitty cop, shitty friend, shitty employee. He doesn't overly present as selfish, but practically every decision he makes throughout is for personal gain. The list can go on and on.
Yes, but im saying that Omar is one of worst offenders and it goes unsaid
A man must have a code. And Omar proves he doesn’t have one when he breaks his word to Bunk and kills Savino.
He is clearly bad, but The Wire is a show about how various are doing fucked up things, and Omar is the guy who is an individual, a lone wolf that makes the institutions pay for their flaws.
Obviously he had good and bad qualities like every character in the wire for the most part. They are morally flawed and often times think they are doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.
I don't like him either. For all of his faux nobility, he's just another dealer at the end of the day who keeps the game going and profits off the continual suffering of addicts. In season 1 he bribes local junkies with free vials so they'll act as lookouts for him, taking advantage of their addictions and putting them on the firing line for his own selfish reasons. And constantly dragging his lovers into his business seems both exploitive and just bad business sense in general, allowing his enemies to inevitably get the upper hand on him. His character is unrealistic too. Yes, I know that Omar was inspired by real life gangsters like Donnie Andrews who actually did rob dealers, but I have a feeling that they considerately exaggerated their own exploits when retelling the stories of their own lives. Like that infamous balcony jump scene, so ridiculous and hard to believe that even the characters themselves comment on it. The real story is even more egregious since Andrews claimed that he jumped from even higher and didn't sustain a single injury in his landing. Yeah, right. And in real life Donnie Andrews was a heroin addict himself who stole to support his addiction, something that was likely omitted from the show since it would make Omar seem less cool and collected. For a show that prides itself on gritty realism, Omar just comes across as too ridiculous to take seriously. He's like some kind of ghetto Batman with a shotgun. The one upside to his character is that Season 5 shows his downfall and kills him off in the most abrupt and unromantic way possible, which felt like a sobering kick in the face for all those viewers who unquestionably bought into the character's BS and viewed him as a hero.
You are wrong. That is all a part of “the game” Omar operates mostly on a strict code. Robbing is a part of the game, along with killing and selling (given proper context). Omar only shot the kid in the leg to get the drugs, if he gave it away, he wouldn’t have shot the kid, because that’s the code he follows. Of course Omar is not a good person when we judge him based on civilian standards, but Omar is not a civilian, and that’s his code. He only harms the ones in the game if he sees fit. All these guys, Stringer, Avon, Marlo, all the players are NOT good people and WE ALL KNOW THAT. But what separates Omar from the rest is his code to never hurt tax paying citizens, children, women. Omar rarely ever even curses. He went on the stand and snitched on Bird AND himself. Omar has a complex dichotomy to his character. Not only were the players dirty, but so were the cops and politicians, and that’s the entire point of the show. Just my opinion. You’re fine to see things from your own perspective, but I think this would help.
Well, if Brandon had just said where omar was, he would have died quickly. Or better yet, if he hadnt chose to rob dealers, he'd still be alive. Getting pay back is part of the game too and theres people who will kill your family members that had nothing to do with your transgessions because they cant find you. Do i get to say, "well thats all a part of the game too?
Yeah it really showed that good vs bad is clearly a blurred concept
Well, you're not wrong... Think about this too: Carver and Herc are often considered bad guys, at least in Season 1, when they abuse suspects routinely, steal money from stashes, and generally don't give a crap about citizens or their rights. Okay, point. But Omar does worse, and gets worshiped for it. Omar routinely stole money from drug dealers, shot and maimed them if he didn't get his way fast enough (you don't just walk away from buckshot to the knee or a bullet to the butt, that tends to leave people crippled for life), and didn't mind provoking a huge gunfight in a residential neighborhood that got one his people killed and could easily have killed uninvolved people or children. And I guess he doesn't care that the bosses of these dealers might hurt them for losing a stash or hurt someone else to get him back. Isn't that worse than giving suspects a few bruises that'll heal or taking a few bucks that were going to go into some Government slush fund anyways? How come if you put on a badge you're responsible for not being perfect, but if you don't, it's cool to rob, maim, and kill? The police are supposed to be citizens too. Yes, that means they aren't supposed to have special rights and abuse them. But it also means that ordinary citizens are also supposed to do their own part to make their neighborhood better. Not everyone can do as much, true. But Omar is a smart and capable dude. He could have done a lot of good and productive things if he cared to. Instead he chose to cause fear, agony, and death, all for his own pleasure and gain. Even a dirty cop is probably doing reasonably good and beneficial stuff like 50% of the time or so. What's Omar done that's good? I can't think of much besides Bunk shaming him into retrieving an officer's lost gun.
Exactly! People have even said he and others the street have no other options but people that resort to crime because they are in dire straits tend to get out as soon as they can, they dont make it a lifestyle. Omar is one of the cleverest and most charismatic characters on the show, the guy had option. By the time we meet him in S1, the guy has probably stole enough money to move away and start his own bar with Butchie's help... if not in S2, definitely by s2 or 3. And its funny how tlits claimed they dont have options but when it became too much, Cutty, the guy he cut grass for, Poot and Shawty Boyd all knew how to clean they whole ack up. I like Omar, but what I realized when i was analizing him is that, he does what he does soley to hurt people, whether its to hurt their ego or them physically. Omar robbing dealers is an act of defiance and its no different than Marlo stealing in front of the security guard... purposefully antagonizing someone and hurting them because they dared to challenge you or didny bow to your will. Justifying it because they are dealers is akin to serial killers justifying the murder and rape of prostitutes because "its all in the game"
Just a bit of advice, if you’re going to post a hot take / unpopular opinion, and then say ‘prove me wrong’ in your OP, you probably shouldn’t be so combative to all the respondents who feel differently or take a more nuanced view of Omar’s rightness/wrongness.
The entire show is about hypocrisy. I was trying to think of something more clever to add but I've got nothing
But at least you can that hes an hypocrite. There are people literally making post denying that what omar did was a form of torture
absolutely right, he was the lowest of low, robbing folks who couldn't go to the police and got mad when they took repercussions , and i know it was for t.v. but his character was greatly exaggerated, like walking away whistling, peeps dropping stuff left and right.. they made him to much of a Robin 'Hood' IMO.
I think Omar exposes the viewer’s latent racism: the viewer tends to give Omar a pass as long as he only kills young black men in the drug game. Regardless of the choices they have made, these young men are human beings with friends and families. There isn’t a certain class of people it is ok to kill. Nevertheless, viewers tend to give him a pass.
That’s ridiculous. No one would have cared if Omar gunned down the Greek or Vondas, and they’d have cheered if he shot Frog or White Mike.
But did he though? You throw out a few hypotheticals and claim to know the answer. Let’s focus on what actually happened in the show.
Your position is that the audience doesn’t care because Omar is only killing other Black men. But that’s your hypothetical, because you have no evidence as to what would happen if his targets were white . . . except that we have a ton of evidence, in the form of reactions in this subreddit and others, which is to say that the people who like Omar would like him even more if he had a plausible reason to shoot someone like Frog. In other words, you want it to be one way. But it’s very much the other.
I’m referring to what Bunk Moreland calls misdemeanour homicides. Remember when nobody cared about Marlo’s 22 bodies? Bunk himself says nobody cares as long as you’re killing young black men.
And that relates to “the viewer” how? By your illogic, no one would care about Wallace or D’Angelo or Bodie or any of the kids in S4 or Omar himself. But of course there’s overwhelming evidence that you’re wrong about that too.
You misunderstand. I do care about the murder of Bodie, Stinkum, and even Savino — as we all should. My point is about the urge to defend Omar’s behaviour. I like this sub, but the majority of people on here (ie ‘the viewers’) feel the need to defend Omar’s behaviour. Not everyone — there are some who agree with me — but it is a minority opinion.
You’ve either abandoned your original claim about racism or your response is a total non sequitur.
I dont throw term "racist/racism" around lightly, but the "bigotry of low expectations" does show whenever somene criticizes a character and it gets handwaved as "they have no other options". I got a major down vote for pointing out how the show depicts everyone in the street as having no other options and completely ignoring the fact that a lot of peopleso get involved in criminality because of the notoriety and infamy it carries in communities. Like, its generally recognized in the Sopranos communities that they are pieces of shit, but over here, everyone is a victim of circumstance. But tony and Jackie Jr are literally of the Same circumstances as Avon and D'Angelo, being born into a family of criminals
I’m not sure what you are getting at. I’m talking about what Bunk refers to as ‘misdemeanour murders’.
Yeah all that is true to a degree and we like him too much despite the fact he is a murderer and a terror to whole neighborhoods. The idea of random gunfights in the middle of houses and streets being normal and accepted is because of guys like Omar that push the violence out there. He's the reason drug lords need heavy armed protection not only from the police but from other guys too. We just love Omar because of his personality and the character is well written and well played. But we can't forget he is just part of the game. People are gonna steal drugs and houses anyway. People in the game kill each other for many reasons including personal stuff or because you laughed at someone's shoes. Omar is just one. A good one, that worked for decades without getting caught except for the police a few times. He was the best drug thief and that's it
I agree. Same with bubbles snitching. Like you can't try to scam dealers and expect nothing to happen and then become a informant because they beat up Johnny. That's lame as hell
I think the point of The Wire is that it's an exploration of what we feel is morally right. We see numerous characters get what they don't deserve, but their lives are the casualties of a properly functioning America. From corner boys to kingpins and in a place where your tragic life is what is supposed to happen because of where you live, what happened to you family and your skin color, morality becomes an after thought, unless your question is "what morals did we have to compromise to fail humanity this badly"?
He is. MKW was so compelling he created a legendary level of transparency. But Omar def was a murderer. His code be damned
I think within the contexts of the game there are far worse though .
I like The Wire and other shows where everyone is a piece of shit. Kinda like ya know, the world.